Weekend question II: Save a baby or cough up a kidney?
Last week young pro-abort Red Doll Shoes asked this question on Yahoo! Answers:
Anti-choicers, since you agree that preserving human life is more important than letting women make their own desisions [sic] about what happens to their bodies, would it be okay to force you to give up one of your kidneys in order to preserve human lives?
Red Doll Shoes wasn’t really looking for analytical debate. She later complained pro-lifers weren’t providing simple “yes” or “no” answers.
Nevertheless, how would you respond to Red Doll’s question?
The problem with this analogy is that in an abortion, the baby is already in the mother’s body. Forcing someone to give up a kidney is more like forcing someone to get pregnant, which no one thinks is okay.
So let’s make change this analogy to make it a bit more like pregnancy. You were placed under general anesthesia for some unrelated surgery, but due to a terrible hospital mix-up, they took your kidney and transplanted it into Bob. Can you kill Bob to get your kidney back? (What if you know that, if you do nothing, you’ll get a replacement kidney in nine months?)
It seems pretty intuitive to me that the answer is no, but I’m sure the abortion advocates will come up with some way to justify Bob’s demise.
No, people shouldn’t be forced into kidney donation. Although, I think we would all recognize it as universally horrible if a parent refused to donate to a dying child.
The difference between the situations is that neither a failing kidney nor organt transplantation is part of a normal lifecycle.
It falls outside the realm of care/neglect and outside into the realm of extraordinary care.
The other distinction is that the parent (we can assume) has not done anything to create the problem with the other person’s kidney. This differs from pregnancy in which a person’s direct actions result in the other person’s dependency.
Now, if I *did* do something to make another person’s kidney’s fail, it would probably be in my best interest to donate my kidney if possible to save their life and prevent me from being charged with their death.
I think the problem with this question is that it misunderstands the pro-life position. It is not that we do not believe that the right to bodily domain does not exist at all, but rather that the rights of the dependent child override this right in the circumstance of a pregnancy.
This balance of rights is very much shifted in the kidney siutation.
“in the circumstance of a pregnancy.”
Yes, exactly. In the circumstance of pregnancy. Not in any other circumstance. It’s okay to take away a pregnant women’s bodily autonomy *just* because she’s pregnant. It’s not about life, it’s about hurting women, pregnant women particularly (and ESPECIALLY rape victims).
“Yes, exactly. In the circumstance of pregnancy. Not in any other circumstance. It’s okay to take away a pregnant women’s bodily autonomy *just* because she’s pregnant.”
In what other circumstance is one person physically dependent upon another as part of a normal life cycle?
There isn’t one, save perhaps a nursing mother. I would most certainly argue that a nursing mother has the obligation to feed her child using her body if it is the only way to keep her child alive.
It has nothing to do with “hurting women” it has to do with a balance of rights. The child has the right to not be neglected. The only way that this can be accomplished is if the mother remains pregnant.
Like all parents, a pregnant mother must provide food and shelter for her child. In the case of a born child this means that the child can infringe on the mother’s right to privacy by living in her house and using her resources. During preganncy, this means infringing upon her right to bodily domain by living in her womb and using her resources.
This dynamic radically changes when we speak of organ donation. A failiing kidney is outside the realm of neglect (other than that a parent must seek medical treatment for their child) because it is outside of a normal life cycle.
So then it’s not about life. It’s about what you think is “normal” and “abnormal”, or “natural” and “unnatural”.
Yes, of course it’s about life.
However, there is a vast difference between a parent failing to provide necessary care(neglect) and a child’s own body failing him.
Think about it like this:
Situation A) A mother refuses to feed her 3 y/o child and makes him sleep outside in the shed because she claims to have a right to privacy. The child dies.
Siutation B)A mother refuses to donate a kidney to her 3 y/o child in renal failure because she claims a right to bodily domain, and the child dies. The mother’s actions directly caused the child’s death.
Obviously the mother in Situation B made a decision that should be condemned, but her actions did not cause the child’s renal failure in the first place. Were it not for the modern medical intervention of organ transplantation, the child would have died anyway. Her actions did not cause the child’s death, though she did fail to act to save him.
Should the woman save her child? Of course. I think most of us would recognize not doing so as profoundly morally suspect. However, I do not believe that it should be legally mandated since there is a key distinction between taking direct action to cause death and refusing to take extraordinary action to prevent death. This becomes even more noted a distinction when we begin to talk about forced organ donation for strangers who you have no obligations to, as seems to be the situation originally presented.
(Sorry for the double post. I had to correct something in the first, and wasn’t able to stop it before it went through. The second post at 11:12 is what I meant to say!)
Hey, look, our little troll is back. Did you know that she “doesn’t expect anti-choicers to treat any pregnant person decently, or even humanely”?
Still want to know how you think women will react to a pregnant abortionist, PCG, seeing as you want to be an abortionist and have lots of babies. Still wondering what you’ll do if your unborn baby moves inside you while you’re killing someone else’s. Still want to know if you’ll tell your older children while you’re pregnant that no, there’s not a baby inside Mommy. Still wondering if you’ll have a little party before you go on maternity leave from the abortion clinic, and celebrate with your co-workers mere feet away from all the tiny dismembered limbs.
Still wondering what your idea of “the right time” to tell your pro-life parents that you’re becoming an abortionist is, and still suspecting that it’ll be the second you no longer need their financial support. Still want to know why we were hearing about a boyfriend first, then a “wonderful pro-choice husband”, and when we noticed the change you disappeared. Still think that if you’d gotten married between those posts, you would have just told us that. Still suspect you’re hoping we’ll just forget the various things you’ve said in the past that I’m bringing up here. Still think you have a very high-schoolish mentality and your big pro-choice advocacy is your way of trying to punish your parents for some wrong or percieved wrong. Still think there’s a good chance that you actually are still in high school.
Still true that abortion ends the life of a human being, and that you’re happy to ignore what pro-lifers really believe in order to attempt to portray us as misogynistic monsters who hate women who have abortions.
Red Doll must be channeling SOMG. He put forth the very same arguments.
For those of us who are new to this blog, SOMG was the (supposed) abortionist who commented here on a regular basis before he was banned.
A great study in sociopathic behavior, he was.
You can’t expect to get an answer to a loaded question containing a failed analogy.
It’s like, “Pro-aborts, since you agree that a woman being in control of her own body is more important than the life of her child, would it be okay for the mother to sue her child for damages because she couldn’t afford a legal abortion?”
Would a pro-abort really answer THAT loaded question particularly if the analogy makes no sense?
Kelsey pretty much nailed it. I blogged something similar a while back.
I can’t figure out a way to combine her scenario with mine, so I’ll just present it here:
You and your main squeeze indulge in the hobby that can cause fatal kidney damage in children. You know this but choose to expose your child to the risk. He suffers kidney failure as a result. Can you be made to serve as a dialysis machine for your child for the nine months it takes his kidneys to heal — we have the technology that allows you to go about most of your normal activities of daily living while doing so. You’ll be inconvenienced because of the cumbersomeness of the arrangement, but you can work, socialize, make love, etc. with the same degree of privacy you’d ordinary ahve. Or should you be allowed to demand that the child’s doctor hack him to bits so that you don’t have to deal with it?
Remember, the fetus in the womb isn’t a stranger. Pregnancy isn’t some flukey thing that just falls upon you; you always do something to bring it on. Pregnancy is temporary, not permanent. And abortion isn’t simply allowing a moribund person to die; it’s deliberately causing the violent death of somebody whose only “crime” is to be someplace your actions caused him to be in the first place.
Oh yeah – still true that you are incredibly and tragically naive if you think that a guy being pro-choice “means that he really cares,” when it could just as easily mean, “Bitch, you’d sure as hell better not be expecting me to take care of your *$#@ing baby because I *$#@ed you once, you *$#@ing slut.”
When will women figure out that the baby isn’t a part of their body. Once the child is delivered their body returns to it’s original state. In most cases women become pregnant through their own action’s except through rape of course. If your kidney is failing it needs to come out because it’s diseased. Babies aren’t diseased.
The question is just a way for someone to try to make a point where they can’t make a point. I don’t see women lining up to have their kidney’s taken out just because they don’t want it!!
Yo – Red Doll Shoes.
No problem – I’ll go through the kidney procedure if you subject yourself to the equivalent of a vacuum aspiration abortion. I think a tree shredder produces about the same result.
You go first.
Cranky Catholic, the question for the abortion supporters crowd ought to be, “Since you place women’s autonomy above their children’s lives, do you think any woman ever ought to be prosecuted for killing her child?”
Or maybe, “Since your motto is ‘Trust women’, should laws uniformly apply only to males?”
Funny, I think that if some Bonnie Parker type was pointing a gun at a prochoicer, suddenly the prochoicer would have qualms about trusting at least ONE woman, and would definitely want to infringe on Bonnie’s moral agency in deciding whether or not to pull the trigger.
Hi Prochoicegirl,
Since I can no longer post anything on your site because you delete almost all prolife posts now, I will catch you here. Yes, I’ve been respectful, did not swear as you and proaborts do even using the Fbomb, etc. I am left to surmise these questions are too deep for you and that you come here because you miss us.
My last question to you that was deleted was on the order of, “If abortion becomes illegal and since you are so passionate and vocal about becoming an abortionist, would you break the law and still provide abortions?
I believe PCG must be channeling too.
“Since you place women’s autonomy above their children’s lives, do you think any woman ever ought to be prosecuted for killing her child?”
We ought to start a list of women who killed their born children after aborting an unborn one. I’ve got Susan Smith and Diane Downs – any more additions?
I really recommend that people read “Small Sacrifices” by Ann Rule – it’s about Diane Downs and it really lays out all the maternal confusion that resulted from her abortion. On one hand, children were now expedient to her and could be killed if she needed them out of the way, but on the other hand, she wanted to be a surrogate mother to atone for her abortion. She had two daughters and then an abortion – when she got pregnant again, she felt as though maybe the aborted baby was coming back to her, but because she believed the aborted baby was a girl and the new baby turned out to be a boy, she realized that wasn’t true.
I’m actually a big fan of “yes” or “no” answers. They ask the question KNOWING that answer, so I give them what they want. So, in this case, “no”.
If they are TRULY looking to understand our position, my answer will beg the question and they will honestly follow up with me.
If, however, they are a pro-choicer looking to corner me, they’ll either let it go and walk away thinking they won (which they’d probably do anyway). If they press the issue, they’ll ask me why that’s different, then I’ll be happy to explain why.
Here, the only comparable situation to the hypo is the “forced pregnancy”, or rape. Initially, I’ll note that I’ve never argued a pro-choicer whose actual ‘point of disagreement’ with me was on the rape/incest cusp, so when they bring this up, I call them on their bul***it. From a “should it be the law?” standpoint, if I can meet a pro-choicer in the ‘middle ground’ of the rape/incest issue, I’ve done my job. If all we’re dealing with legally are victims of rape, let the pregnancy centers and donations come in and help convince these women to protect the life of the child – let the law outlaw the rest.
Hi, Marauder. I already answered all of your idiotic questions in the post that you asked me them. I also never used the word “husband”. Fiance, yes. Not husband. Not that you deserve to know anything about my personal life and relationships.
“My last question to you that was deleted was on the order of, “If abortion becomes illegal and since you are so passionate and vocal about becoming an abortionist, would you break the law and still provide abortions?”
1) You never even attempted to post that comment. You must either be making this up or you just don’t know how to post a comment on my blog. :/
2) I delete most anti-choice comments on my blog because 1- they’re usually hateful and filled with vulgar language and 2- They’re almost always unrelated to the topic. I’m not going to let anti-choicers spam my blog any longer.
We all know that if anti-choicers were about life, they’d stop killing doctors and trying to punish women with death. You should change your slogan from “It’s about life” to “It’s about fetal life. After they’re born, screw ’em!”
“It’s about fetal life. After they’re born, screw ’em!”
Add this to the page of abortion myths!
Prochoicegirl,
Easy Cobra.
I, Praxedes, asked a quesion about your performing abortions after abortion becomes illegal, not Marauder. I don’t know if Marauder posted more questions or not. I did post the question and I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that I made a mistake and didn’t post it correctly. Why not answer it now?
I remember you referring to your fiancee on Jill’s site as your spouse, not your husband. FYI – A spouse is not a fiancee. I have never used vulgar language on your post but I still can’t post. Another lie.
As far as this mature comment of yours: “It’s about fetal life. After they’re born, screw ’em!”
please know that prolifers are against child rape as well.
Abortionist = Sociopaths
“I delete most anti-choice comments on my blog..”
..because you’re losing debates all of the time.
No.
The one posing the situation has the burden of proof to argue that the two situations are analogous in such a way that if one takes in action in one circumstance, then that action is justified in the other circumstance.
The situations are not analogous because in an abortion you are directly and willfully killing a human being as a means or an ends. In the kidney situation, you neither directly nor willfully kill anyone. The illness (which could have been prevented) kills the person needing the kidney.
I find it amazing how the means of an action plays no role in this person’s characterization of the pro-life position. She thinks the position is “preserve human life at all costs” as if that’s the axiom we start with and our entire ethical theories must be twisted and forced to fit around a mold which says preserve human life.
Lauren asked ProChoice Gal, “In what other circumstance is one person physically dependent upon another as part of a normal life cycle?” (outside of pregnancy) I submit the situation of conjoined twins. Consider twins that share organs. Perhaps the majority of the organs reside in the body of the “dominant” twin, will the sibling may have certain organs, she is sharing the function of other organs w/ the twin. If seperated, only the one who does not contain the majority of organs would die. Their parents do not seperate them knowing that one would die. As they age & become adults, they continue this relationship because the dominant twin realizes to seperate would mean the death of the sibling. But let us speculate that a time does come when the dominant twin decides she didn’t ask to be a conjoined twin…it wasn’t her choice. There was a failure somewhere along the line & this situation was forced on her. This set up is no longer convenient…it hinders her autonomy, her privacy, her freedom, her ability to have a social life & career…limits her choices. She decides she no longer wants to sustain the life of her sibling. To do so puts on her an undue (& unwanted) stress & burden. It isn’t like she is “killing” her sister, just deciding for herself she is not going to continue to be an “incubator” or “life support” for an organism that is not viable without her. Yesm they are both “human” because they have human DNA, but surely the sister with the supporting organs is “more human” & more deserving to continue to life. She isn’t killing by seperating…just allowing the sibling to die…nature taking its course.
The only major difference is the size & age of those concerned, location (outside the womb) & the fact that these twins share DNA while the fetus has a totally unique DNA from the mother (& all other humans beings). Besides, the dominant has been put out by her role as life support for far longer than a mere 9 months…with no end in sight UNLESS they are surgically seperated.
Anyone pro-choice in supporting this woman’s right to choose to seperate from her unviable, parasitic twin? After all, “It’s not about life, it’s about hurting women” and this woman is being hurt by continuing to be connected to her sibling! Why would we force her to remain connected against her will? Don’t we trust her to make the best decision for her & her life?????
Yep, you’re right, Praxedes. I just checked – spouse. And you’re right, she never directly answered my questions. She answered a few questions about “what will you do if” from other people, but not mine.
Lifer- I don’t know what the law says about this subject, but if one conjoined twin wants to be separated, the only moral thing to do would be to separate them. That person still has bodily autonomy, just like pregnant women do. I *think* I heard somewhere that, by law, if one conjoined twin wants to be separated and the other doesn’t, they will still go ahead with the operation. I don’t have a source for that, however. Does anyone else have a source for that? I’d be interested in knowing.
“Lifer- I don’t know what the law says about this subject, but if one conjoined twin wants to be separated, the only moral thing to do would be to separate them. That person still has bodily autonomy, just like pregnant women do. I *think* I heard somewhere that, by law, if one conjoined twin wants to be separated and the other doesn’t, they will still go ahead with the operation. I don’t have a source for that, however. Does anyone else have a source for that? I’d be interested in knowing.
”
You’re absolutely wrong about this. If one twin wants to be separated and separation will kill the weaker twin, they DO NOT SEPARATE.
The only time conjoined twins can be speparated against the will of the weaker twin is if not doing so will result in both of their death.
The stronger twin can not just say “hey I have bodily domain!” and demand that her sibling be killed.
So, ProChoice Girl, although conjoined twins are legally recognized as individual persons (personhood, as you may know, is a legal term based on the decisions made by persons in positions of power & not a biological term…non-person does not equal non-human), then your position is “if one conjoined twin wants to be separated, the only moral thing to do would be to separate them. That person still has bodily autonomy, just like pregnant women do”. Does the fact that the action of one human individual will directly result in the death of another human idividual phase you in the least? Especially since according to the Bill of Rights, we are “all created equal” and “endowed…with the right to life…”? How is your position “moral” and not discriminatory? What makes one human life worth more than other human life & who should decide? The one with the most power? Doesn’t sound very “feminist” to me. When you decide all human life is NOT equal & start basing criteria for which humans are more or less valuable & worthy to live based on the subjective opinions of those in positions of dominance & power, where will it stop, ProChoiceGal? What we end up with is a culture of descrimination by the stronger against the weaker. Those who get in the way or are generally “unwanted” by those with power are excluded from protection and can be eliminated if it suites the desires of the strong…if it benefits THEM.
I never said that one conjoined twin is dominant to the other. I said that they have bodily autonomy, and if one wants to be separated but is forced to stay joined w/ the other one, than his or her bodily autonomy is being violated. The right to life does not equal the right to use a person’s body against his or her will.
Lauren- Do you have a source for that? The law wouldn’t change my opinion (because, as we all know, legal does not always mean right). I’m just interested in finding real information (and sorry, but I know better than to take your word for it).
Suppose your baby breastfeeds or starves. No replacement for your breast milk is available. You’d have to breastfeed, obviously. Now suppose that you either donated blood or your baby died. You wouldn’t have to donate blood.
Breastfeeding doesn’t manipulate the way your body was designed to work, and so requiring you to breastfeed does not amount to using you as a tool, or “enframing” you in the way that requiring you to donate blood would. Similarly, requiring you to gestate and give birth does not manipulate the way your body was designed to work, so it falls in the same category as breastfeeding.
Just an observation….I’ve noticed the pro-life posters here are good-natured and eloquent. I’ve noticed the pro-abortion posters are angry, defensive, and cannot back any of their statements up with science or fact. It’s like they’re really angry that killing their children isn’t accepted by everyone.
If you’re going to err, it’s best to err on the side of life.
“(because, as we all know, legal does not always mean right).”
Can you hear them? The Angels!! They are singing and rejoicing!!
Better comparison is the one where you wake up and have to function as the filter for another person’s blood for the next nine months. And I would say that if you enter into an agreement (like having sex) saying “In the highly unlikely event that you need a person to filter your blood” (let’s say it’s a .1% possibility), “I agree to provide said service for the duration of 40 weeks”… Well, yeah. You’re obligated in that case to do it.
Still waiting for that list of poorchoice charities that help women and their already born children, PCG. You know, the one I asked for months ago? Anytime now. What are proaborts doing to help poor women struggling to raise their already BORN children?
The right to life does not equal the right to use a person’s body against his or her will.
Posted by: ProChoiceGal at May 22, 2010 12:48 PM
——
Better let go of all prisoners and insane people who are confined. Their body is being constrained against their will.
Oh, and before you launch into the ‘Republicans don’t want to give women welfare’ schtick, you might want to research who cut them off in the first place-your very own leftwing poster child, Billary. Incidentally, my husband (aka SPOUSE) and I gave $700 to our local CPC to match your bowling for babykilling stupidity. On behalf of the babies you have helped, thanks. So, let’s hear all about what your side is doing ‘after they’re born’, before you accuse others of not caring. Then again, nothing says caring like death and dismemberment, does it? Nothing says maternal instinct like the old vacuum tube, because women deserve better, right?
I wonder if MaryLee considers the posts above this one “good-natured and eloquent”. :)
Ridicule abd dismissal is not an answer. Let’s hear what proaborts are doing for women and their already born children. Back it up. Prove it.
Prochoice gal, if one conjoined twin ordered the other put to death so that she could exercise more bodily autonomy, she would be robbing the other twin of HER bodily autonomy. Why are you okay with that?
Is it that you always side with the aggressor?
(BTW, no doctor would ever participate in separation surgery that would kill one twin at the mere request of the other. That violates the “First, do no harm” part of their Hippocratic Oath. They’re in the business of promoting health and saving lives, not promoting selfishness and ending lives.)
I think if an individual feels any pressure or is being pressured not to abort the first thing they need to do is step back take a breather and access what is really happening. When accessing the pressure consider whoever is pressuring you is not your baby. If whoever is pressuring you or if your feeling pressure you are in no way responsible for other peoples actions. If they get on your nerves ignore them or distance yourself from them. Your baby is not your enemy your baby is part of you and will add more joy to your life than you will know what to do with. I think a better analogy would be to say my baby is not a kidney and although I might give a kidney to help someone my baby will be staying with me.
Make inflammatory statements, bait and run, scurry back to the hugbox on twitter/blog for validation and attagirls, debate only with those who agree with you…you go PCG! Radical faminazism is for the weak minded. Marauder, I wouldn’t wait around for any actual answers/proof. They are not forthcoming. Now that schools out for summer, you can expect plenty of armchair activism from those who can’t manage it IRL. See ya.
“I wonder if MaryLee considers the posts above this one “good-natured and eloquent”. :)”
I wonder why you’re unable to come up with a response to said posts :)
“debate only with those who agree with you…you go PCG!”
How do you debate with someone if you agree with them? There’s nothing to debate if the two people are in agreement w/ each other on the subject. Jill, I learned a long time ago that you aren’t interested in hearing an answer from me. You’re not interested in any of my opinions or answers. That’s totally fine, just don’t expect me to waste my time answering your questions anyway. If you’re not actually interested in my answers, why would I bother?
“Prochoice gal, if one conjoined twin ordered the other put to death so that she could exercise more bodily autonomy, she would be robbing the other twin of HER bodily autonomy. Why are you okay with that? ”
No she wouldn’t. It’s a bit like self defense. If shooting a rapist is the only way I can get him off of me, you bet I’ll shoot him if I can. Me hurting him wouldn’t be taking away his bodily autonomy. It would be protecting my own bodily autonomy.
This is so unusual so I have to say something. Once while admiring a particular kind of flower the individual who planted them thanked me and told me some people mistake them for weeds. After posting my previous post and sending it I tried to return to the home page of Jill’s site. Instead of that happening it went to my screensaver and instead of the screensaver I had put up it was a screensaver with those same beautiful flowers. I think that is God’s way of letting me know that what other perceive to be of little worth he sees the value in them.
LOL. Typical deflect/victim card. You won’t answer because you can’t. I could say the same to you-since you think all antis are brain dead, why come here in the first place? Clearly you don’t care for our answers-you’re only here to bait and antagonize. Now quit deflecting and answer the questions asked by others, since you won’t and can’t answer mine. What are proaborts doing to help women with already born children, PCG? You accused us of not caring after they’re born. Back up your rhetoric with some facts, or admit you can’t. It’s a simple question.
“What are proaborts doing to help women with already born children, PCG?”
We’re supporting their freedom. 60% of people who have abortions are mothers. For many of them, forcing them through a pregnancy would just push them deeper into poverty. We give those women a choice, and that choice directly effects how that woman and her children are going to cope.
Not that you didn’t already KNOW what my answer was to that question. As I said earlier, you don’t care. You’ll ignore this answer and go on whining about how I never answer your questions. Poor you.
Someone above mentioned you deleting their comments on your blog, PCG. Debating only with those who will agree. Truth hurt? I think Marauder had a few questions, and he’s not me. Why not prove it? Answer him if you can’t answer me. Running short of commenters to delete on your blog? Nothing better to do on a Saturday? I do. Off to do just that. Keep spewing, PCG. It’s an apt illustration of how proaborts have no substance, only PP slogans and empty rhetoric. It does prolife a world of good every time you babble.
“and sorry, but I know better than to take your word for it)”
What the hell does that mean? I back up everything I say, and have never once misstated a single fact on this blog.
There isn’t legal precedent on the issue because no one has been cold hearted enough to try to off her sister so she can enjoy “bodily domain.”
The only legal precedent (British) involves a case in which both twins would die without the separation. The parents did not want to separate the two, but the doctors did. The judges ruled with the doctors because they felt everything must be done to save the life of the stronger twin. It was a situation in which either one would die or they both would.
Now, if you took 2 seconds to look through my blog, you would see quite a few anti-choice comments there that were up AFTER I began moderating my blog. I only delete unrelated/spammy comments and hateful comments.
More rhetoric-I’m not talking about abortion funds, PCG. I’m talking about feeding clothing and helping CARE for the already born. You know, the ones you claim we don’t care about? What are proaborts doing to help them, besides encouraging mommy to abort and siblings that might come after? You know, the survivors, the ones you missed killing? That too hard for you to grasp?
“We’re supporting their freedom. 60% of people who have abortions are mothers. For many of them, forcing them through a pregnancy would just push them deeper into poverty. We give those women a choice, ”
None of those problems could not be solved via adoption. Remember that the reason a woman chooses to abort can not deal with any situation that happens outside the delivery room. The law allows abortion only to protect bodily domain. The last time I checked, being “pushed deeper into poverty” doesn’t infringe upon someone’s bodily domain.
Practically, of course, almost all abortions take place because the born child will be inconvienant.
“More rhetoric-I’m not talking about abortion funds, PCG. I’m talking about feeding clothing and helping CARE for the already born. You know, the ones you claim we don’t care about? What are proaborts doing to help them, besides encouraging mommy to abort and siblings that might come after? You know, the survivors, the ones you missed killing? That too hard for you to grasp?”
See, you did exactly what I predicted you would do. This is why I don’t bother answering you. I gave you your answer. Go back and reread it a few times if you need to. I’m not planning on giving you another answer until you quit acting childish.
“Prochoice gal, if one conjoined twin ordered the other put to death so that she could exercise more bodily autonomy, she would be robbing the other twin of HER bodily autonomy. Why are you okay with that?”
PCG “No she wouldn’t. It’s a bit like self defense. If shooting a rapist is the only way I can get him off of me, you bet I’ll shoot him if I can. Me hurting him wouldn’t be taking away his bodily autonomy. It would be protecting my own bodily autonomy.”
Are you serious? You really think ending the life of an innocent, human individual is like shooting a rapist in self defense? Guess that is fine if YOU are the twin with the most organs…but what if you are the one who is in the weaker position? This mindset of “might makes right” is dangerous & one I thought feminists had dealt with…but apparently not. This reveals a lot about how you view equality. You seem to see only how your choices effect you, but not how your choices effect others…nor do you apparently care. You are all for YOUR OWN bodily autonomy…your OWN rights…your OWN freedom, but not those of others. This reveals the discriminitory nature of the pro-choice position you hold. It is all about your choice, regardless if it eliminates the choices, rights, freedom, and even life of others. So long as you perceive yourself to be in the power position, the weaker get what you decide they deserve. But someday you might be the weaker…you might be the one excluded from protection. I hope those in power show you more mercy than you are willing to show others.
More name calling and deflecting, and still no answer. I said already born, PCG. What part of that don’t you get? What are proaborts doing to help the already born? Alinsky tactics aren’t going to help you here. What are you doing for women with children BESIDES encouraging them to abort any future children? Too tough for you?
” You are all for YOUR OWN bodily autonomy…your OWN rights…your OWN freedom, but not those of others.”
If that were true, I’d be on your side.
“None of those problems could not be solved via adoption.”
Yes. Because adoption is *never* a traumatic choice. It’s *never* painful to have a child and to give it away to a stranger. Never.
“More name calling and deflecting, and still no answer. I said already born, PCG. What part of that don’t you get? What are proaborts doing to help the already born?”
I already gave you this answer. Go reread it.
“Yes. Because adoption is *never* a traumatic choice. It’s *never* painful to have a child and to give it away to a stranger. Never.”
Hmm, let’s see…live with the guilt of having your child torn apart limb from limb, or knowledge that you gave your child the gift of life.
PCG, more to the point, what do you “prochoicers” do to help women make choices other than abortion?
How many women have you provided with material aid? Taken into your home? Hooked up with medical care?
And while we’re at it, what do you do to help the woman AFTER the abortion? Y’all are real “pro-woman” from conception to discharge from the abortion mill. After that she’s on her own. It’s not the abortion clinic staff or escorts who help her if she’s puking her guts up on the parking lot, or if she’s ready to collapse from blood loss. It’s the prolifers who take care of her. Once her money is in the till and her baby is in the biohazard trash, all prochoice interest in her vanishes.
The prolifers, on the other hand, stick around after birth. One local prolife ministry didn’t even get involved with one client until the baby was seven months old, whereupon they went to work to find her affordable safe housing. What “prochoice” organization is gonna be there for a woman seven months after an abortion?
It takes a real misogynist to pretend that all women feel the same thing after giving their children away for adoption/having an abortion. Yes, some people can regret abortion, but many don’t. Yes, some people feel great about giving their children away for adoption, but many don’t. Not that I expect you to care about those women who you can’t exploit to use to promote your agenda.
You’re right, Jill G, she’s never going to answer. Her strategy is to claim she’s already answered a question she hasn’t answered and then, when she gets called on it, say she’s not going to answer it because no one really cares. Weak.
(I’m female, by the way. :) )
I see. So encouraging mommy to abort any future pregnancies is going to put food in the mouths of children already here in your world, PCG. Collecting for abortion funds is going to feed a hungry five year old who’s already here and escaped the vacuum tube. Intelectually dishonest and spitritually bankrupt to the core. Marauder, I wouldn’t wait around for any actual answers from this one. I’m sure she’ll get plenty of blog fodder and mileage out of your questions here on twitter and elsewhere, though. Google prochoice charities and you get NARAL and abortion funds. Cold comfort to women who loved their children enough to protect them from abortion. I’m sure they’re deeply grateful that you want to help fund the deaths of their future siblings, PCG. Poverty can be overcome. Death is final. Without the right to life all other rights are irrelevant, but hey, as long as you aren’t in any way inconvenienced, right? Have a nice day.
Oh, Please, PCG spare me. You don’t give a crap about women who are suffering after abortion. Nor do you care about women struggling with the decision to place their children for adoption. We’re the ones on the front line counseling these women and doing everything we can for them to help them parent if that is what they want to do. We also support them if they decide that adoption is the course of action they wish to take.
Where are the pro-choicers? No where to be found, unless they feel like they can exploit an upset birth mother and hold her up as an example as to why she’d be better off with a dead child.
PCG, the rapist is attacking you. A conjoined twin is not. She is sharing a body with you through no choice of her own.
What you’re saying is that whichever twin is more selfish gets to kill the other twin. That if Abby or Britty just got it into her head to have the other twin killed, that would be her right, because she’s the aggressor.
Siding with the more selfish person, who wants to kill somebody else. Why does it not surprise me that a prochoicer has that “morality”?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkKWApOAG2g
That’s bull, Lauren. We all know that your “counseling” only consists of coercing women to choose what YOU want them to do, or trying to get them to feel what YOU want them to feel. It’s all greed. I am not the one who is trying to tell women who don’t regret abortions that their feelings are wrong. I’m acknowledging their existence, just as I acknowledge the existence of women who DO regret their abortions. Anti-choicers are the people who exploit women. They choose to exploit ALL women who regret their abortions. It’s time to face the fact that women are people. Not tools for a political cause. Instead of trying to use their pain to hurt other people, why don’t you try mending their hearts? Why don’t you try treating these people humanely for a change?
“That’s bull, Lauren. We all know that your “counseling” only consists of coercing women to choose what YOU want them to do, or trying to get them to feel what YOU want them to feel. It’s all greed. ”
Greed? Tell me, PCG, what in the world do I get out of a mother not killing her child? Last I checked there was no financial compensation for sidewalk counselors. In fact, I would argue that it hurts us financially to encourage women to carry to term instead of abort, since many of these women will be on medicaid or other public assistance. Guess what? We don’t care. If the only way that a woman will be able to carry to term is by getting on TANF, Medicaid, Foodstamps, Section 8 and WIC, we’ll happily help her.
The counseling shows women the truth about abortion. No one is pushed into deciding to parent or place for adoption. Unlike the abortionists, we have absolutely nothing to gain from the woman making either decision.
Contrast that with the abortionists who lose out on $500 if a woman changes her mind. Talk about a conflict of interest!
Further, we openly admit that there are women who do not regret their abortions. That doesn’t change the fact that a vast number of women DO regret their abortions, and we’re the only ones there for them.
It’s laughable that you emplore us to “treat these women humanely” when YOU are the ones who line them up like cattle, scrape out their children, plop them in a chair, and never want to hear from them again. Yeah, that’s so much more humane than giving a pregnant woman maternity clothes or a new mother a crib.
What do you get out of coercing women into doing things that they don’t want to do? I don’t know, I suppose you get some kind of sick kick out of it. Is it a fetish? How am I supposed to answer this question for you? Why DO you like hurting women?
Yeah, the paycheck that an abortion provider gets is SOOO worth being harassed and murdered for. If I wanted to make money, I would deliver babies. I’m not going to become an abortion provider for money. That would be illogical.
“What do you get out of coercing women into doing things that they don’t want to do? I don’t know, I suppose you get some kind of sick kick out of it. Is it a fetish? How am I supposed to answer this question for you? Why DO you like hurting women?”
I don’t. The fact that you can’t discern a motive is a good indication that there isn’t one.
“Yeah, the paycheck that an abortion provider gets is SOOO worth being harassed and murdered for. If I wanted to make money, I would deliver babies. I’m not going to become an abortion provider for money. That would be illogical.”
Abortion providers are very highly paid for the work they perform and they don’t have to maintain any of the professional obligations found in other specialties. The NAF will put their seal of approval on just about anyone. Of course, most abortionists are washed outs from other specialties. Few are like you, delusional that they are “helping” women by killing her child.
I doubt Red Doll Shoes will read down this far on the thread, but just in case, to appease her, I’ll answer her question quickly. NO.
PCG, all of my friends who have had abortion did so because they felt they HAD no choice. After I experienced a crisis pregnancy, I realized how precious my daughter’s life was…..not how she ruined my plans. Oh, and I had plans. I did.
How in the world is loving and respecting your unborn child a horrible thing? We know how babies are created. If you want to have sex, then fine, I don’t care. But use birth control. And also: Don’t be surprised if that birth control fails. These babies do not have to die. There is no reason. Try all you want, you can never, ever justify abortion. It cannot be justified.
By the by, my plans I had before I became pregnant? Well, I got to follow through with them, just out of order. Your life doesn’t end when you have a baby. So why end a baby’s life?
Here’s the thing: We don’t live in the 1950’s anymore. Women sought abortions because there was a horrible stigma, because they didn’t have any chances to achieve their goals. But we don’t live in that world anymore. Women need to say “Yes, we have babies, and we’re not going to kill them to compete with you.” We’re getting closer to this, but we’re not there yet.
Today, women seek abortions because they are told they should. They are told abortions make things all better, and it makes the problem go away. Who tells them this? Abortion providers and abortion advocates. But we know that the unborn aren’t globs of tissue. We know this, because we stick pictures of our babies ultrasounds on the fridge (even pro-choice women do this) (!!!!)
In any case, women sought–and still seek–abortions out of fear. Why aren’t we addressing that fear? Why can’t we tell pregnant college students that they don’t have to choose between and education and their baby? The pro-life camp isn’t doing that, the pro-abortion camp IS.
Today we had a baby shower for the two crisis pregnancy centers in town. We raised over $700 and have many donations of clothing, diapers, homemade blankets, bottles, a car seat, stroller and gobs of baby goods.
These are the same people who drive women to their doctor’s appointments, pay for their lunch and groceries, give them furniture,and even we have paid for rent and water bills. We give referrals to local agencies and people are grateful for our help.
And this is only one little area of the country – it’s happening all over.
Care to know if I’m pro-choice or pro-life (directed to PCG)?
Also – my girlfriend who has no children now due to her abortion choice as a young women is standing outside the clinic – trying to help women make an informed choice – no coercion – just her sharing her story with others who have never thought of that as a possibility.
we even have a couple of families waiting to adopt.
We help where we can – and woman after woman have thanked us for our prayers, our material help and our hearts. when they need help, they call us – and that is a blessing.
If we all help, it makes a difference.
Decent discussion of an old argument going back to Judith Jarvis Thomson. See here:
http://prolifemn.blogspot.com/2010/03/two-arguments-from-bodily-autonomy.html
@ PCG’s “60% of women who get abortions are mothers” NO. 100% of women who get abortions ARE MOTHERS. You are a mother when you conceive. An abortion doesn’t change that, it makes you the mother of a dead child.
20 Reasons Why a Person Might Have an Abortion
There are a lot of reasons why a person might have an abortion. Here are a few:
1. She doesn’t want to become a parent now.
2. She doesn’t want to become a parent ever.
3. She’s still in high school/college and wants to complete her education.
4. She had an incomplete miscarriage.
5. She has an ectopic pregnancy or other health problem.
6. She has children that she is already struggling to take care of.
7. She doesn’t want to be a single parent.
8. She can’t afford a/another child.
9. There is a fetal anomaly present.
10. She is looking after a family member with health issues and can’t take care of both a child and a family member.
11. She is in an abusive relationship.
12. The pregnancy was a result of rape.
13. The child(ren) that she already has has special needs and she has to take care of him/her.
14. She is a drug addict/alcoholic and doesn’t want the fetus to be born with health problems or raise a child while still being addicted.
15. She doesn’t want to have a child at her age.
16. She doesn’t want to be pregnant with a specific person’s fetus.
17. Because having a child is and always will be life changing.
18. Giving a child away for adoption would be too painful.
19. She feels violated by the pregnancy.
20. She just doesn’t want to be pregnant.
These are from Pro Choice Gal’s blog post of today.
Thought we could go ahead and refute all of these too.
I think we all know the reasons women seek abortions. The problem with abortion is that it is done for arbitrary reasons, with healthy women and healthy babies. The problem with abortion is that we do not have a right to kill and incinerate our children because we are “not ready” or because we don’t want our lives to change. It is a tremendous injustice. I don’t understand why pro-aborts have such a gross sense of entitlement. It is NOT okay to have an abortion. It is senseless, and it is unnecessary.
Of course I would give up a kidney to save a baby’s life.
More reasons a woman might think it is OK to have an abortion:
21. She believes abortion is OK because our country legalized it.
22. Her boyfriend/spouse pressures/abuses her to abort.
23. An abortionist pretends to care about her but in reality wants to get paid big money to kill her child and change her into a Dead Woman Walking
If we all help, it makes a difference.
Posted by: joyfromillinois at May 22, 2010 4:14 PM
Imagine if EVERY PP clinic were changed into a Crisis Pregnancy Center?
Imagine?
How many children has PCG adopted to spare their mothers from feeling like they had no other choice but abortion? It is easy to vocally support a womans “right to choose”. Easy to give her a ride to the clinic. Even easy to help cover the cost of the procedure. But is it easy to make a life-long commitment to a woman & her child? Which is a greater sacrifice? Once the abortion is completed, the pro-choice friend’s job is over. They supported the choice & now the problem is solved…everything is expected to get “back to normal”. You all pat yourselves on the back for supporting a woman in choosing an abortion when she feels like she can’t continue the pregnancy (who & what is making a strong, capable woman feel this way???) & this is her only viable choice. Yet it is the pro-lifer who steps up and says to her, “No, you really CAN do this! You are strong enough! You are capable! You will have support & we will help you!”
Consider this situation: Raped at 13 while an 8th grader. Taken to a clinic where she is tested for STDs but never given the results. Given an ultrasound to determine gestation, but not allowed to view the screen (mother of 13 yr old was allowed to view screen). Mother pressuring for abortion to get this all behind them so her daughter can go on & be a kid again. Counseled by staff with pressuring mother in the room. Told by staff that at 20 wks, her baby was “not formed yet”. When the teen asked about her options, adoption specifically, the counselor told her “no one will want a bi-racial, rapist’s baby”. She was never told the risks to her concerning the procedure, but they did tell her is she continued the pregnancy, she WOULD die. This was terrifying for both mother & daughter. She was “too young to give birth”. She was then asked, in the presence of her coersive mother, “do you want to have this abortion”…under pressure, & believing she would die giving birth to a baby no one would want, she consented. Since she was 20 wks, she required at live dimemberment D&E. Her cervix needed to be dilated considerably to allow for the larger body parts to be removed. This usually requires 24-48 hrs of slow dilation w/ laminaria, but apparently the staff didn’t want to wait. They wanted to do the abortion that day. The mother had not brought enough money to cover the unexpected cost of general anesthisia, so the staff decided to proceed with the 20+ minute long abortion on a 12 yr old rape victim…awake. She was on the table, in the stirrups being manually dilate by metal rods when she got upset from the pain. The abortionist eventually stopped & told the girl’s mother she needed to come back when she had more money for general because she was making his job “too difficult”. So they rescheduled & left. During the time between the 1st attempt & the rescheduled abortion, this young girl learned the truth about fetal development, her risks, & more about her options. My husband & I offered to adopt her baby if it would help her. We were not planning to adopt, had not budgeted for an adoption & didn’t even know this girl, but we wanted to help her. We felt if we were going to support her in her choice for life under the enormous amount of pressure she was facing, then we needed to be willing to do all we could personally to be there for her. We were willing to make a lifetime commitment to her & her child. Well, the day of the abortion, she refused to go because she was no longer basing her decision on the manipulations of the staff at the abortion clinic & those in positions of influence/authority/power. She took a very hard stand. She began prenatal care & was again tested for STDs & discovered her rapist had given her Chlamydia, which if untreated (& inserted up into a raw womb) can make a woman sterile. It can also make a baby blind. So, this clinic cared so much about this girl, that they didn’t give her the info needed to make an informed decision & they didn’t tell her she had an STD so she could be treated. She may have aborted at 13 the only child she ever would have been able to conceive. She did get treated by her OB & cured. She went on to deliver a healthy baby & this young lady did not die. The baby was very much wanted & loved…by her birth mother, birth family & her adoptive family. There were tears of joy that morning in the delivery room as loved ones watched this little girl emerge. I know these facts because the young lady & her mother shared with me their story…shared with me all that happened at the clinic. I know because I was there that morning when this young lady delivered her daughter & made her my daughter. I was there the day day she had to leave with empty arms & we held each other & cried. I was there when she repeated over and over “thank you”…how HUMBLING! And we keep in regular contact, PCG. She is our family too! We love her so much. We honor her. She went on to have a childhood, graduate HS, & get a degree. She is working in the same hospital now where her daughter was born. Was it easy? No. It was difficult in a million ways. But was it worth it? Absolutely. While women who abort & women who place for adoption both face challenges, there is a major difference. The woman who places can watch her child grow up…see him or her being raised in love by parents who adore him or her. Can even have a role in their child’s life in the cases of open adoption. The abortive mother cannot…her child is dead. Both bring a pain, but a very different kind of pain. Now, we knew there was a risk that there had been damage done by the abortion attempt & indeed our daughter has special needs. But that does not diminish her value or her life. This is truly a lifetime commitment…would you be willing to make this level of commitment to REALLY give a woman a choice? And I am not alone… I have yet to meet a single pro-choice woman or man who has adopted a baby specifically to provide a choice to a woman who felt like she had no other choice but abortion.
16. She doesn’t want to be pregnant with a specific person’s fetus
This one’s a no-brainer. If you don’t want to take the chance of being pregnant with a specific person’s baby, don’t sleep with that person
So, lifer, what about those 13 year old rape victims who DON’T want to go through their pregnancies? I was raped when I was 14. I have anti-choice parents. They would have supported raping me for another 9 months had I gotten pregnant. I decided I would kill myself if I got pregnant, and I was very, very serious about that. The only reason I’m here today is because I was lucky enough not to get pregnant. Do you care about girls who are in the situation that I was in? No, of course not. You’d much rather let them die than help them. You only “care” about those women who you can use to advance your sick agenda. It has nothing to do with loving women. Nothing at all.
lifer, are you the same Lifer from the pro life forum…..i think related to abortionno? I remember that story……and the child lived (was not aborted) and you adopted her, right?
LOL! ONCE AGAIN PCG finds a way to make it all about her. Shameless attention whore and professional victim. Vous êtes pathétique et en dessous du mépris! Only you could find a way to hate on a selfless act like adopting that girl’s child. PATHETIC.
Now, if you actually read my post, you would have seen this:
“Do you care about girls who are in the situation that I was in?”
Notice that I didn’t say “Do you care about me?”. I don’t care if she cares about me, I know she doesn’t. It doesn’t phase me. I said “Do you care about girls who are in the situation that I was in?”
and now you’re going to find something to whine about again. :)
P.S. You make yourself look silly when you say things like “LOL OMG YOU’RE SUCH A PATHETIC WHORE HAHA”
So, lifer, what about those 13 year old rape victims who DON’T want to go through their pregnancies? I was raped when I was 14. I have anti-choice parents. They would have supported raping me for another 9 months had I gotten pregnant. I decided I would kill myself if I got pregnant, and I was very, very serious about that. The only reason I’m here today is because I was lucky enough not to get pregnant. Do you care about girls who are in the situation that I was in? No, of course not. You’d much rather let them die than help them. You only “care” about those women who you can use to advance your sick agenda. It has nothing to do with loving women. Nothing at all.
Posted by: ProChoiceGal at May 22, 2010 8:47 PM
how does abortion solve the problem of the rape PCG?
it merely adds yet another act of violence to the young girl’s body
not only that but it may severely impact the young girl’s health
abortion is not without risk and is substantially riskier than pregnancy
you are exposing an already vulnerable woman to yet more trauma….
I am sorry you were raped.
Perhaps this is why you are so filled with anger….
Yes Liz…same one! Thanks for remembering.
PCG: “Do you care about girls who are in the situation that I was in? No, of course not. You’d much rather let them die than help them. You only “care” about those women who you can use to advance your sick agenda. It has nothing to do with loving women. Nothing at all.”
Wow, nothing like making sweeping assumptions, false statements, and ignoring the obvious to forward YOUR agenda. Um, I would have to say YES, the evidence shows I do personally care for women who were & are in the situation you were in. But killing the baby wouldn’t have eliminated the trauma of the rape. What victims need isn’t to be further violated by a masked stranger. They need real help & support. How would strapping her to a table, spreading her legs, & inserting items into her body have helped her…or you? How would that experience somehow bring any healing from the violence of the rape? A rape victim is exactly that…a VICTIM. They are innocent & generally overpowered in an act of violence. How does turning around and becoming the aggressor, thus commiting an act of violence against a fellow innocent 1) erase/heal the rape & 2) punish the actual criminal? In reality, it exacts Capital Punishment on an innocent human while rapists merely get some jail time (which IMO is a gross injustice). Did she want to be pregnant? No. Was she traumatized by the rape? Yes. But the circumstances surrounding the conception of her baby & any baby, be it in a consentual act of love at the “perfect time” or via an act of violence or even just an act of poor judgement (intoxication, a quickie, one night stand, etc…) doesn’t change the reality of what is conceived…a tiny human.
You are tossing red herrings out like crazy with your accusations of rather letting women die than “help” them have an abortion…that somehow abortion is the ONLY way you can show you really CARE for women. So when pro-aborts toss out rape as a reason for needing to keep abortion legal & they ignore the fact that PRIOR to Roe & Doe, abortion WAS legal for rape, incest, & life of the mother…and given that these abortions account for 1% of the 1.3 million performed annually in the USA, that isn’t somehow using these rape victims to advance THEIR “sick agenda”? Aborting rape victims is caring & loving. Helping them through the trauma of rape & their pregnancy & then making a lifetime commitment to that woman & her child is “sick” and has “nothing to do with loving women”. Raising the baby isn’t “helping”.
IMO, many people are uncomfortable with knowing a woman has been raped. They don’t know what to say or do. They would rather just sorta push it under the rug & pretend it didn’t happen. When she gets pregnant, it makes it that much harder for them to act as if nothing happened. When she aborts, they can go back to pretending. She keeps silent about the rape & the abortion. She suffers, very often, in silence. If she does carry to term, then they are confronted with the reminder of the rape & that makes them uncomfortable. So they encourage & support abortion. Now, I guess you will say the baby is also a reminder to the woman…yes. But what I hear a lot is that the baby is the woman’s in every case but rape…then it is the “rapist’s baby”. I actually think some people were expecting a tiny rapist to pop out of the womb. Maybe something with horns or from one of those horror movies about the anti-christ. But babies conceived from a rape are biologically/genetically part of their mother’s & her family…they are just babies. Precious, little humans beings who commited no crime. My daughter’s birth mom realized this immediately. They all marvelled at her, studied her tiny body, kissed her & fell in love. Is this everyones experience? No. Could it have been yours? Do our feelings towards another human being determine their value & worth? Their rights? Some believe they couldn’t handle parenting after a rape & place the baby. Others believe they could & enjoy watching something innocent & beautiful come from an ugly act. They offer mercy to an innocent when they were not given such mercy. In any event, coming along side these women & loving them through the rape, pregnancy,& decision to place or parent takes a lot more effort than handing her the Yellow Pages & offering to drive her to the clinic. You assume that if you had gotten pregnant, continuing the pregnancy, giving birth, & seeing/holding your baby would have killed you (suicide) & aborting that baby would have helped…but you don’t know that. Maybe you could have found the capacity to love your own baby…maybe not. I do KNOW that not aborting & instead continuing a pregnancy to term following the rape of a 13 yr old was healing & brought 2 families together in a bond of love. I’m quite sure my daughter & her birth mom/family wouldn’t find my position on this “sick”, unhelpful & unloving.
‘*I* would have killed myself, me me me…done in by your own rhetoric. Sicko. “It’s all about me me me me me.” God what a boring narrow existence. Dissing a woman who adopted a rape victim’s child. You have hit an all new low trying to gain attention/sympathy for yourself. We remember your appalling comments to other rape victims here. Now tell us again how ‘caring’ you are. Laughable.
read the comments here
http://www.jillstanek.com/aborted-alive/rape-video-game-that-features.html
and see how PCG ‘cares’ for other rape victims
And the mercy you now expect from pro-lifers why would you not have been able to extend that same mercy to an unborn baby. Suicide, Pro-Choice girl is never a good solution and neither is abortion. I’m assuming your older now by the way you write if not think about this question when your older. Knowing what you know about life now and having more life experience do you think pre-meditated death is ever really a good solution? And I have another question rape is a very serious crime and usually leaves the victim with a great deal of rage. Have you ever received counseling for that. It just doesn’t seem right, that victims have to pay the price for the crimes of others. You didn’t say if you felt suicidal even when you knew you weren’t pregnant you just said had you had gotten pregnant you would have committed suicide. You are aware right that the victims of rape usually do feel suicidal that is just a normal reaction to a very vicious crime.
If you are okay with raping rape victims even further once they’ve become pregnant, then NO you do not care about girls who are in the same situation that I was in. The rape was traumatizing. A forced pregnancy would be MUCH more so.
“You assume that if you had gotten pregnant, continuing the pregnancy, giving birth, & seeing/holding your baby would have killed you (suicide) & aborting that baby would have helped”
I wouldn’t have given birth. I would have killed myself long before that, and I know that. I know there are other girls out there who are/were in that same situation, and you’re telling them that you’d rather see them dead. No, raping them again would not have helped them, no matter how much you’d like to make yourself believe that.
So, you’d leave your own parents grieving, kill your own child and kill yourself. Doesn’t get any more selfish than that. Issues needing professional help (or an exorcist)
Later y’all, that’s about all the bile and venom I can take for one day. By the time she’s 30 PCG will have withered away in her own poison. Way to give the rapist power over you and the victory over you every time you say something like that, PCG. How sad.
“raping rape victims even further once they’ve become pregnant, then NO you do not care about girls who are in the same situation that I was in. ”
The child conceived in rape is not “raping rape victims even further.” She is as much a victim of the situation as her mother, and I should remind you, is equally the child of the mother as she is the rapist.
Caring for a pregnant rape victim means helping her to realize this reality so that she does not feel retraumatized. I do not question that it is incredibly difficult being pregnant after a rape, but that does not mean that the innocent child should be killed for her father’s crimes.
PCG, honestly I think your post revealed a lot about your current situation. I know that I am rather harsh when debating, but I mean the following with all sincerity. You can not heal yourself by killing other women’s children. In your mind I’m sure you feel as though you are helping women who are trapped in a situation, and that doing so helps the 14 year old you who felt trapped. You are leading yourself down a path of more distruction.
PCG…Do YOU care about girls who were in the situation my daughter’s birth mother was in? Would YOU have offered to adopt her daughter to provide her a choice other than abortion? An truly VIABLE OPTION beyond abortion. Parenting was not an option. Abortion was offered as the ONLY solution to her problem because, according to the abortion clinic counseors, NO ONE WILL WANT A BI-RACIAL RAPIST’S BABY (thus taking away adoption as a viable option for her…leaving WHAT????? DING! abortion!) If you are pro-choice, you need to walk the talk & offer more PERSONALLY than just the “loving, caring, helful” act of abortion. You need to offer more than a phone number, a ride, & maybe some cash. You need to do more than make everything about you & a personal attack against you & assume (wrongly) that no one cares about you because they don’t jump on the abortion is THE loving, caring, & helpful option bandwagon. Maybe we actually have a different perspective & insight on this and that doesn’t make us woman haters who don’t care if rape victims who get pregnant to commit suicide.
I want to know…if you heard about a girl who had been raped & was being pressured to abort, given misinformation, & was being manipulated…if you found out about this girl & learned that she was interested in considering adoption as a CHOICE other than abortion, would you be willing to adopt that SPECIAL NEEDS “bi-racial, rapist’s baby” in order to give this girl a CHOICE other than abortion????????? Adopting isn’t free. Parenting isn’t free. Special needs therapies & specialists are NOT free. I guess I just have a hard time understanding where you are coming from when your posts are about you & in my situation, the focus was on my daughter’s birth mother & now my daughter & what they NEEDED…giving THEM a choice. Giving them a chance. Giving them all my love. It is a way of being of service to my fellow human beings I not, as one other poster commented, the “narrow exisitance” of self. I hope you find healing for what is hurting you so deeply, PCG. That you can accept that while people may disagree with you, they can still care about you & want good things for you & your future. That disagreeing doesn’t = sick or evil or uncaring…even when conversations get heated on both sides. I hope you can find it within yourself to show mercy & love when you admit these have not always been shown to you. But you can be better than those who hurt you. Being strong & having power doesn’t mean you have to use that to dominate others & act violently against them. Power often can be shown greatest when we act mercifully towards others.
Sorry guys and gals, but I’m totally not buying the “I care about you and other rape victims! I just think that rape victims deserve to be punished for being raped!” stuff right now.
If you are okay with raping rape victims even further once they’ve become pregnant, then NO you do not care about girls who are in the same situation that I was in. The rape was traumatizing. A forced pregnancy would be MUCH more so.
you are being silly and illogical.
A pregnancy is NOT a continuation of the rape.
You are hurting and have been hurting for a long time.
Rape is a crime that involves a total loss of control. My guess is that you are still trying to regain control in your life.
What you advise is that women seek control in a destructive way.
Women who abort after rape are are grasping for control. Abortion seems like an empowering action after a rape, but most women soon discover that they themselves have now become the aggressor – something they come to regret.
In order to succeed in life PCG, it’s all about how you look at things.
Bad things happen all the time to very good people – sometimes very holy people.
You can see those times of adversity as OPPORTUNITY to grow or you can see them as OBSTACLES. It’s up to you.
You had no choice when you were raped. It was forced on you. It was a horrible, despicable thing that happened to you.
But you have a choice now. You can choose to continue to let that rapist win and continue to control you as evidenced by your hatred towards people, especially prolife people and unborn children.
Or you can choose to win, to overcome and choose to LOVE and be a giver.
What will it be?
“I care about you and other rape victims! I just think that rape victims deserve to be punished for being raped!”
No one has said anything remotely like this. We have said that the child doesn’t deserve to die for his father’s crimes, but that doesn’t imply that the child is somehow a punishment for being raped.
You are projecting your own bias into the situation and reading things that have not been said.
You view pregnancy as a punishment, so you assume that we do as well. We don’t.
PCG…you wrote that you believe a rape victim continuing her pregnancy is “reraping the rape victim” but many rape victims report the ABORTION as a “reraping” experience. Do you care about THEM? Or don’t they fit into your templete? Many report actually feeling more traumatized over the abortion. Rape trauma is recognized as “real” while pro-aborts insist abortion trauma by & large is a fabrication made up by “anti-choice” zealots to scare women…so abortion trauma is not addressed when women go for counseling. Continuing a pregnancy doesn’t “re-rape” a woman any more than aborting that pregnancy “un-rapes” a woman. We need to help women deal with the RAPE & in rare cases, a resulting pregnancy. Not just ship her off to the local clinic for an abortion under the guise of caring.
“PCG…you wrote that you believe a rape victim continuing her pregnancy is “reraping the rape victim””
Nope. I never said that. I said that a rape victim who is being FORCED to carry a rape pregnancy is being raped again. You only believe in “helping” women who want to go through their pregnancies. You’re perfectly fine with traumatizing the ones who don’t agree with you even further.
“Nope. I never said that. I said that a rape victim who is being FORCED to carry a rape pregnancy is being raped again”
yes that is the same as saying the victim is being reraped or raped again. duh
No it’s not, angel. “lifer” was trying to make it seem like I said that a rape victim who CHOOSES to go through her pregnancy is being raped even further. That is not what I said. That is the anti-choice twist to what I said.
“The rape was traumatizing. A forced pregnancy would be MUCH more so.”
How do you know this PCG? You’d be dead, remember? What a bunch of bunk. By the way, I’m one of the rape survivors you called a rape apologist.
Another question you never answered that I asked on your site months ago was:
Since antilifers insist we not call a fetus a baby during pregnancy, what do you call a non-moving, non-living, entity that is pulled outside of the womb due to a “doctor’s” action? Is it a Fetus or a Baby?
“That is not what I said. That is the anti-choice twist to what I said.”
No, that is what you chose to read into what lifer said. Her quote does not imply any choice on the part of the mother.
No it’s not, angel. “lifer” was trying to make it seem like I said that a rape victim who CHOOSES to go through her pregnancy is being raped even further. That is not what I said. That is the anti-choice twist to what I said.
Posted by: ProChoiceGal at May 22, 2010 10:18 PM
no you read that into the comment…
That is not what life implied
IMO, you are the one who’s twisted….
What I would do is keep my baby. I would love my baby and try my best to keep it. Pro-Choice girl life is a precious thing,your life and also the life of all unborn babies. My prayer is that you would experience more health and healing than you know what to do with. And I believe any victim of rape should make sure they get good counseling and if at anytime you feel suicidal get quality help immediately, because rape doesn’t just affect the body it affects the spirit and the soul as well.
I hope you get the help you obviously need, PCG. Abortion does NOT give you back the power that the rapist took from you. Abortion doesn’t ‘un-rape’ you. Aborting your child after rape just says “He had power over MY life, so now I have power over YOURS”….like being bullied, then turning around and bullying someone yourself. You are just so full of rage that you don’t CARE who cares about you.
We do.
PCG: “You only believe in “helping” women who want to go through their pregnancies. You’re perfectly fine with traumatizing the ones who don’t agree with you even further.”
Wrong. Unless your only definition for “helping” a rape victim or women who “don’t want to go through their pregnacnies” is abortion. Lots of ways to help women who don’t necessarily “want” to be pregnant than to support her in ending the life of an innocent human being. You offer abortion as HELP but ignore & seem to refuse to offer other means of help. Why don’t they want to continue the pregnancy? If the situation was changed, would this impact their choice? We ask what can we do to make continuing the pregnancy a viable option. Since many women do feel they have to choose abortion, we try to find out WHY & address her very real needs, fears, concerns, etc… A woman says to you, “I want an abortion!” and you say “Fine. I trust you & I support you. I’ll help you get it.” We hear, “I want an abortion!” and we dig deeper & ask “why?” She often will share her reasons. Many are things that we can address in practical ways. No support? Money? Education/career? Tons of reasons. Once the reasons for the abortion are examined & addressed, that “need” to abort is gone. Do you take the time to find out the WHY & offer to give her help so she could feel able to make a different choice? If you don’t have viable options, you really don’t have a CHOICE…and not addressing the why & providing those viable options is NOT being pro-choice, it is being pro-abortion. It looks at abortion as THE option…the solution…the way to help. It is also the easiest way out for pro-“choice” advocates. Abortion done, problem solved…on to the next. The pro-life approach is much more involved & includes a great deal of time & sacrifice. But it is worth it to see a woman empowered to make a real choice, not aborting because she feels she has not other choice.
Still have not answered my questions. (cue Jeapardy theme music) Are you willing to personally make a lifetime commitment to a woman & her child to give her an option if she needs a choice other than abortion & parenting??? Would you adopt the special needs child of a rape victim who was feeling pressured to abort & couldn’t parent in order to give her a VIABLE CHOICE?
So in other words, you coerce people into choosing what YOU want them to choose and call it help. If a woman comes up to me and says “I want to go through my pregnancy” I’m not going to ask her “why?” and try to change her mind, so why would I do so to a woman who wants an abortion? If an abortion if what a person wants, then yes, it’s helping to assist her in getting the abortion. The only “help” you would give to a girl in my situation would be saying to her “Sorry, but you deserve to be raped again. I don’t care if this pregnancy is making you suicidal, if that’s the case, death will be your punishment for being born female.”
I would like to adopt a child one day. Not now, I am definitely not in a time of my life where I am ready to take care of a child. But I would like to do so. I don’t know if I could adopt a child that was a result of rape. That could be very triggering for me, given my own rape experience. If I were ready for kids, if I felt I could emotionally handle taking care of a child that resulted from rape, and if the woman WANTS to give her child up for adoption and is not being coerced into it, I would.
Nice try at changing the subject, by the way. You know you’re not interested in helping rape victims who were/are in the situation that I was in, so you change the subject back to rape victims who want to go through their pregnancies.
As citizens we really need to advocate for places where if they choose rape victims can go and get quality counseling and good legal advice.
There are rape crisis centers, myrtle. Not many people know about them and there probably aren’t enough of them, sadly.
How could you possibly judge a child for how they were conceived? You don’t want to be judged for being raped do you?
If you feel you would be triggered by a child, any child, you have not been in counseling long enough to get over the terrible rape that occurred. Have you had any spiritual counseling at all?
I also believe some nasty people have taken advantage of your mental state and vulnerability because the antilife movement needs more women abortionists to continue to rationalize their evil. Please stop playing the victim card in order that you not perpetuate violence on others. I prayed for you in Mass tonight and I hope you will look for Jesus in your life. He is shedding tears for your hurt.
Prolifers and rape survivors do care about you PCG. Won’t you let us?
Whenever I speak about my rape, someone (usually an anti-choicer) tells me that I’m playing the “victim card”. I’m not going to fall for that one. The only way you’ll ever be satisfied is if I just shut up about it. I’m not here to satisfy you. No, I’m not just going to “get over” the rape. Maybe I’ll heal one day, but it’s not something that I’ll just “get over”. You “get over” failing a test or breaking up with someone. You don’t “get over” rape.
“How could you possibly judge a child for how they were conceived? You don’t want to be judged for being raped do you?”
Being in pain after being raped is not “judging a child for how they were conceived”.
Where has anyone told you to just get over your rape? Anyone who has been raped will tell you that you will never ‘get over it.’ However, you can move from victim to survivor. You have not done so and I can see that because I have been where you are. You are allowing the person who raped you to continue his control of you.
You are judging children who are conceived by rape if you in any way still think that they might be a trigger for you. When you do the hard work it takes to let go of the hurt and anger, you can allow love and joy to fill the spot this took up. When this happens, no child could ever possibly be a trigger for you.
I know you think prolifers don’t care but I hope and pray that someday you will realize just how much we do.
God Bless you.
“What happens is not as important as how you react to what happens.” Thaddeus Golas
Pro-Choice Gal-
Hopefully there will be more soon. I’m hoping politicians will be elected who will be more sensitive to women’s issues. Do you carry mace with you? When the subject of rape comes up I always encourage women to carry a nice big bottle.
It’s not my job to not get myself raped, mrytle. Placing responsibility on the woman to prevent her own rape is useless. We have to teach people not to rape instead of teaching people not to get themselves raped.
Your right PCG. But the reality is that rape happens. And abortion has caused more disrespect of women, not less.
I carry mace and talk to my daughter about what she can do to lesson her chances of being raped. To do any less, would be a disservice to her. No, it’s not fair but it is reality.
Abortion is also unfair to the unborn child but you don’t advocate against it.
Too bad these beautiful unborn humans can’t use mace.
I agree that we shouldn’t have to protect ourselves from rape as humans we should be more evolved than that. And I do believe in education but not everyone has been educated so I do believe mace when under attack is a good thing. I’ve been married twice one of my husbands had issues with anger because I had taken a karate class once I was able to protect myself from his physical aggression. Sometimes action does not prevent assaults but sometimes it does.
Okay Red Doll, the Professor is in.
First lesson in biology:
A woman’s kidney is an organ essential to her metabolic functions of excreting nitrogenous waste, regulating salt, water retention and blood pressure.
A baby is a separate human being, not essential to the homeostatic functioning of a woman’s body.
First lesson in logic:
You ask if it is appropriate to compel a woman to give up a vital organ in order that another might live in response to your assertion that women must KEEP a baby in order that it might live. I guess you didn’t do so well on the analogies section of the SAT.
It simply is devoid of logic. It is loosely configured around the issue of compulsion.
First lesson in bioethics:
Parents do not own their children as property. Before consenting to a procedure on their child, the procedure must be one that remedies a condition or disease, be proportional to the severity of the condition, and not pose undue danger to the child.
Abortion fails on all counts.
A person may not be compelled to donate an organ, as this endangers the life of the individual, both immediately, and in the future. In the case of the kidney, we lose ~ 1% of renal capacity per year after the age of 30, and will need that extra kidney in our latter years. Those who make such donation accept that they may be shortening their lifespan in order to lengthen that of a loved one.
Just as one may not be compelled to forfeit an essential organ to aid another, it is all the more certain that one may not be compelled to have their life ended merely to convenience another.
Hope that helps.
“And abortion has caused more disrespect of women, not less.”
As if forcing women through pregnancies would cause women to be more respected. Women will never, ever, ever be respected until our reproductive liberties are completely respected, and yes, that does include abortion.
You know, I don’t think that it’s a coincidence that my rapist was anti-choice. I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that every time an anti-choicer says the word “rape”, rape apologism occurs. Every time. That is not an unfair generalization. It really does happen 100% of the time.
If we keep on teaching people not to get themselves raped, rape will NEVER end and many rape victims will NEVER heal. You may think you’re being helpful, but you’re not. You’re being absolutely vile. As long as rape apologism like this exists, I never expect to heal. Speaking to people like you while trying to heal is like trying to climb a mountain when there’s always someone on the top who’s going to push you back down. It’s not going to work.
“You know, I don’t think that it’s a coincidence that my rapist was anti-choice. I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that every time an anti-choicer says the word “rape”, rape apologism occurs. Every time.”
How do you know this? Were you raped by a relative or someone you knew?
I think you are deflecting your anger towards your rapist onto anyone you can find and in this case it is towards people who believe that unborn babies are persons entitled to the right to life.
I sincerely hope you NEVER adopt until you have had extensive therapy. I do not mean this unkindly but you parenting a child without extensive counselling will be akin to child abuse. You will poison a child’s heart and soul with your poison. :(
I totally agree with your post Gerard. I would never donate my kidney. Many live donors go on to experience kidney failure.
“So in other words, you coerce people into choosing what YOU want them to choose and call it help.”
No, we help them. The vast majority of abortions performed in this country are done for reasons of practical concern that could easily be avoided if someone had bothered to offer help. For instance, if a 15 year old girl says she’s aborting because her parents will kick her out of the house if she doesn’t and she won’t be able to finish school, we can tell her that there are maternity homes in the area that have accredited schools and will happily take her in.
If that is *really* the reason she is having the abortion (and sadly, it very often is and your side just says “ok let’s kill that kid!”) she is relieved and liberated because she feels like she has some choice other than abortion.
“If a woman comes up to me and says “I want to go through my pregnancy” I’m not going to ask her “why?” and try to change her mind, so why would I do so to a woman who wants an abortion? If an abortion if what a person wants, then yes, it’s helping to assist her in getting the abortion.”
By taking this attitude you completely ignore the hundreds of thousands of women who don’t WANT an abortion, but they feel they have no alternative. Instead of taking 5 minutes to see what the issue is (hey, maybe she just doesn’t have insurance and doesn’t know about medicaid) you just say “ok, let’s kill that kid.” Abortionists don’t care about the women who come into the clinics.
“The only “help” you would give to a girl in my situation would be saying to her “Sorry, but you deserve to be raped again. I don’t care if this pregnancy is making you suicidal, if that’s the case, death will be your punishment for being born female.”
No, that is absolutely NOT the only help we could give a girl in your situation. First of all, if someone came to me and told me she was suicidal, I would contact someone at a suicide prevention program ASAP. I also would direct her to a rape crisis counselor to help her work through the trauma.
You don’t care about any of that though. You have in your mind that pregnancy following a rape is re-rape and you blame all of us for re-raping you and so you’re sticking it to all of us and your rapist by becoming an abortionist. I hope that one day you can see how twisted this all really is and get the hope you so desperately need.
“How do you know this? Were you raped by a relative or someone you knew?”
Yes. This is how 73% of rapes occur. Time to dump the misconceptions about rape. No, I don’t care how vile and hateful you are to me. If you plan on hurting me by calling me an angry meanie that shouldn’t have kids, you should give up. It’s not going to work.
“In your mind I’m sure you feel as though you are helping women who are trapped in a situation, and that doing so helps the 14 year old you who felt trapped.”
Yeah. I think that’s it.
ProChoiceGal, your rapist may have been “anti-choice”, as you put it, but that’s not why he was a rapist. Your parents might have not wanted you to get an abortion if you’d gotten pregnant, but that’s not because they wanted you to “continue to be raped.” I don’t know your parents, but my guess would be that they would have already loved their grandchild, no matter how he or she was conceived.
You’re coming here to lash out at us because you’re angry at your rapist and can’t lash out at him. When it comes to rape, we’re on your side. Rape is a horrible, criminal act and no one deserves to be raped. But you act as though we support rape because you’re angry at someone who DID support rape, and for whatever reason, you don’t have an outlet to work through your anger and pain related to him.
It’s kind of like when one of my high school friend’s parents got divorced. They got divorced because it turned out her father secretly had three children with another woman, so, naturally, my friend was really angry that he’d been lying to her and her mother and her sister. But she didn’t feel safe expressing her anger towards him, so she lashed out at her mother instead, knowing that her mother wasn’t going to retaliate against her.
If you had gotten pregnant through rape, the fetus/baby/whatever you want to call him/her would have been another innocent victim. S/he wouldn’t have been some kind of demon child because of who his/her father was. You feel as though if you’d been pregnant, you would have had no choice but to kill yourself. Can you see how sad that is? We don’t want that for anyone. If you’d been pregnant, we would have wanted both you and your baby to emerge from the trauma healthy and strong.
You can irritate the heck out of us, because no one likes to be falsely accused of supporting rape or be answered with rhetoric instead of a real answer. But we don’t hate you. We really don’t. I’m not sorry to have asked you some tough questions, but I am sorry if I came across as antagonistic. Can you accept that we’re pro-life because we have good intentions, even if you think we’re wrong? I think you do believe that abortion can help women and you can help women as an abortionist. I think becoming an abortionist would cause you even more pain in your life, but I don’t think you want to cause anyone pain.
I’ve said before that you have something of a high-school mentality. I think that’s because there’s a wounded, angry fourteen-year-old girl inside you who needs to heal. That’s okay. It doesn’t make you weak or worthless because you have trauma in your past and haven’t felt as though you could overcome it. I don’t want you to spend your whole life feeling powerless. I want you to be happy. You can’t be carrying as much anger as you have and be a truly happy person.
You have very valid and legitimate reasons to be angry. But if you let the anger fester inside you, it’s going to emotionally destroy you. Don’t let it do that.
“When it comes to rape, we’re on your side.”
Yeah, and your condescending BS really convinces me of this. Really. *rolls eyes*
There is not one anti-choicer in the world who is “on my side” when it comes to rape. Not one soul. If you don’t respect a person’s bodily autonomy when she’s pregnant, you won’t respect her autonomy when it comes to sex, either.
” If you don’t respect a person’s bodily autonomy when she’s pregnant, you won’t respect her autonomy when it comes to sex, either.”
This is simply not true, and betrays a vast misunderstanding of the pro-life movement. We do not reject bodily autnomomy outright. We recognize that there are times when others rights might supercede this right. The life of a child fits into this catagory. The rapist has NO rights that supercede your rightto bodily autonomy. None. There is no conflict of rights. He is 100% wrong.
The child, on the other hand, has done absolutely nothing wrong and her very life is threatened by you maintaining bodily autonomy. It is a very different case.
I’m not being condescending, PCG. No one should be forced or coerced into having sex. Why is it hard for you to believe that I believe that? Why is it hard for you to believe that I don’t want you to keep suffering the way you have been suffering?
“No one should be forced or coerced into having sex. Why is it hard for you to believe that I believe that?”
Because you’re an anti-choicer. No anti-choicer really believes that.
“Because you’re an anti-choicer. No anti-choicer really believes that.”
Ok, you’re officially delusional. Yes, we do really believe that. We don’t support rape, and the fact that you have some convoluted need to pretend we do is frankly disturbing.
You seem to be conflating you rapist with the us. That makes as much sense as us conflating all pro-choicers with the Oklahoma abortionist who killed his wife and declaring that all pro-choicers hate women and want to kill them.
We dont, and never have, supported rapists. It’s really not that hard to understand.
I’m not an “anti-choicer”, PCG. I’m a pro-lifer. I’m also a law student aspiring to be a criminal prosecutor.
You don’t care about any of that though. You have in your mind that pregnancy following a rape is re-rape and you blame all of us for re-raping you and so you’re sticking it to all of us and your rapist by becoming an abortionist. I hope that one day you can see how twisted this all really is and get the hope you so desperately need.
Posted by: Lauren at May 23, 2010 7:59 AM
This comment by Lauren has got me to thinking:
you know what ProChoiceGal, I think YOU are interested in becoming a rapist.
You are so angry, you want to perpetrate the violence done to you against others.
EVERYTHING an abortionist does is similar to rape.
Abortion also has all of the violence that rape does.
You were helpless in the rape. So in the unborn baby in the abortion.
No one heard your cries for help. And no one hears the babies either.
Both are invisible crimes. Rape victims are the walking wounded. Abortion victims are dead.
You say you are about choice.
NO.
You are about violence, rape and abuse.
You are about anger, hatred and revenge.
BTW, did anyone in your family turn in your rapist?
Did you receive help after the rape?
Amazing how someone can leave a comment like that, angel, and claim to be anti-rape and pro-life. It’s time to take of that mask. You might as well start a group called “Anti-Choices Advocating for Rape”. Don’t call me a rapist and then pretend to give a crap about me by asking if I got help. You might trick some people who are a bit less than bright, but I’m not going to submit to you.
haha
ProChoiceGal, is this what you want to be – a rapist?
That is exactly what abortionists are.
Have you ever watched a suction abortion being done?
It looks exactly like a rape – rape by using a machine. And often done by a man. A woman doing abortions is even more perverse than a man.
A rapist doesn’t respect the dignity of a woman’s body.
An abortion doesn’t either.
Rape is an act of violence.
Abortion is also an act of violence – even worse because it’s done against two people, one of whom always DIES.
And PCG, I do care about you – enough to point out to you what you are doing.
My heart goes out to you.
I know several women who have been raped – repeatedly by family members.
All these women have suffered terribly.
But most have achieved some degree of healing though the compassion and love of others and through God.
If your family never helped you, you would feel doubly betrayed…. :(
Prochoicegal, when you argue about rape you are coming from a silent premise that a woman must ‘get over’ her rape in less than nine months. Do you actually know anyone who was actually raped? Did she recover in less than 9 months? Did she jump into elevators with men alone and relish the thought of casual sex in less than 9 months?
Any woman who has had the misfortune to experience of both rape and abortion can attest: it takes a long time to heal from rape, and it is cruel for feminists to put a time limit on it, AND the regret of abortion lasts a lifetime.
As a species, we reproduce by having sex. That’s the way we evolved. Sex is not a recreational activity on par with going to the movies or playing mini golf. But in the last few generations, the use of contraception has turned pregnancy into a ‘contraceptive failure.’ This mentality has led to the de-humanization of the unborn child. Any species on the planet that wages war against its unborn children is self-destructive. If it began happening among another species, scientists, zoologists, and most humans would find it horrifying. To be pro-choice is to wrench yourself away from your survival instinct. You can’t love the earth and want everyone to be ‘green’ while you have such a hostile view of the natural world in which you live.
“Prochoicegal, when you argue about rape you are coming from a silent premise that a woman must ‘get over’ her rape in less than nine months. ”
What the hell? When did I say that? Can you read? Or are you just another anti who’s trying to smear me? All I said about “getting over” rape is that no one just “gets over” it. We heal from it, but it’s not something you “get over”. It’s been years since I was raped, and I never healed.
“and I never healed.”
Yes, PCG, this is very obvious. Instead, you lash out at anyone trying to protect innocent human life.
No matter how hard you try, mischaracterizing us as pro-rape is not going to heal your pain.
I don’t expect that hanging around with pro-rapists will help me heal. I only hope to educate at least one person.
“I don’t expect that hanging around with pro-rapists will help me heal. I only hope to educate at least one person.”
Ok, but I doubt you’ll find such a group outside of a prison. For the last time, we are not pro-rape. We do not support rape. We 100% condemn it.
In all honesty though, I don’t think you can rationally debate abortion when you start from the premise that we are all pro-rape. Of course you’ll reject anything we say out of hand, which isn’t fair to either side.
“I don’t expect that hanging around with pro-rapists will help me heal.”
So, opposing murder = pro-rape? Do you have any idea how delusional you sound?
“But let’s not say that staying pregnant is “being raped all over again” for everyone.”
I can’t find where I said that and added the “for everyone” bit. Mind pointing it out to me?
If someone is against bodily autonomy for pregnant women, of COURSE they’re going to be against bodily autonomy for rape victims. All anti-choicers support rape by fighting against bodily autonomy, even if their support for rape is subtle. You are either for bodily autonomy or you’re against it, and anti-choicers have demonstrated that they are very, very much against it.
Not to mention the rape apologism they were throwing around earlier. “It’s YOUR job to carry around mace with you so you don’t get yourself raped!”. That promotes the rape culture. It’s not a woman’s job to stop herself from getting raped. We’ve been giving women a very long list of things to do to avoid rape for the longest time. Don’t wear a short skirt, don’t go on a walk alone, don’t go jogging, don’t go to parties, don’t drink alcohol. We know that it doesn’t work. They know that it doesn’t work. The only person’s job it is not to rape is the rapist. We don’t tell people not to take walks so they won’t get mugged. Why do the same with rape?
“Ok, but I doubt you’ll find such a group outside of a prison”
1) There are more pro-rape people than just rapists themselves
2) Only 6% of rapists even spend a day in jail. You won’t find many people in jail for rape. They’re walking the streets, in the malls, at parties, on college campuses. They are mostly out in public, not in jail.
“If someone is against bodily autonomy for pregnant women, of COURSE they’re going to be against bodily autonomy for rape.”
This is horribly flawed logic. As I explained earlier, we are not against bodily autonomy carte blanche. We just recognize that there are times when rights conflict, and we must measure these rights against one another. In the case of pregnancy, the child’s right to live conflicts with the woman’s right to bodily autonomy. We hold that the child’s right to life may infringe upon the mother’s right to bodily autonomy in this case.
In the case of rape there ARE NO CONFLICTING RIGHTS. Period. The woman has a right to bodily autonomy. The rapist has NO right to “sex with whoever he wants, whenever he wants.” There is no conflict of rights. It’s completely cut and dry. The woman’s right to bodily autonomy wins without contest.
“1) There are more pro-rape people than just rapists themselves
2) Only 6% of rapists even spend a day in jail. You won’t find many people in jail for rape. They’re walking the streets, in the malls, at parties, on college campuses. They are mostly out in public, not in jail.”
Yes, and this doesn’t change the fact that you will be hard pressed to find a group of congregant rapist outside of a jail, which was my point.
“We hold that the child’s right to life may infringe upon the mother’s right to bodily autonomy in this case.”
So then you’re against bodily autonomy, aka you’re PRORAPE. If the only way I can get a rapist off of me is to kill him, would you support self defense? Even though my right to bodily autonomy would conflict with the rapists right to life?
The right to life does not equal the right to violate another person’s bodily autonomy. If what you said was true, then rape would be okay because the rapist’s right to life overrides the right to bodily autonomy. You are either for bodily autonomy or against is, and all anti-choicers are against it. That is what being anti-choice is about. Pro-rape and anti-liberty for pregnant women.
Just a tad?
Is PCG someone your side would really support in becoming an abortion provider? She speaks volumes about the mentality of someone who is in her words “passionate about abortion.” Allowing her to deal with women who are already hurting and confused would be an atrocity.
Thanks Ashley for pointing out PCG’s disrespect of women who choose birth. PCG disrespects anyone who is prolife.
As a rape survivor myself, PCG has been completely disrespectful of me just because I know human life begins at conception and believe the unborn deserve to live as much as you and I do. To say that I am prorape and a rape apologist would be absolutely laughable if it weren’t so cruel. But then again, PCG will have to hang on to that HUGE CRUEL STREAK she has or she would never be able to end the life of many humans.
FYI PCG, I knew both of the men who raped me quite well and they are both proaborts. One of them has pressured several women to abort as well. He has never wanted anything to do with his children and the mothers moved them away. These mothers didn’t need to kill their children because their bio-dad is a $#@$*.
I for one am personally tired of PCG’s nasty attacks on those of us who have been through similar or worse tramas.
There does come a time when a victim will have to decide whether they want to become a survivor or a perpetrator. PCG has already chosen who she is. I pray someday she will have a change of heart.
*head desk*
PCG says “So then you’re against bodily autonomy, aka you’re PRORAPE.”
No. We recognize that the right to bodily autonomy is not absolute. That does not mean that we do not recognize that it exists.
This is really not a difficult concept, but you seem to completely miss it.
Let’s try this:
I will assume that you agree that our constitution affords us the right to bear arms, correct? (Not that you agree that it *should* but rather that it does)
Do you believe that we can put restrictions of any sort on this right? I.E. do you support waiting periods, background checks, disallowing felons to buy guns, ect?
“The right to life does not equal the right to violate another person’s bodily autonomy. If what you said was true, then rape would be okay because the rapist’s right to life overrides the right to bodily autonomy.”
Rapists don’t die if they don’t rape someone. Unborn babies do die if they get aborted. Rape is a malicious, evil assault. Unborn babies don’t have bad intentions. Rape is a crime. Being conceived is not a crime.
“No. We recognize that the right to bodily autonomy is not absolute.”
That’s just as ridiculous as saying that the right to liberty isn’t absolute. Yes, people can get arrested and put in jail (which restricts their liberty), but what crime did pregnant women commit? Is having sex or being raped a crime?
The right to bodily autonomy is absolute, and I think it’s safe to assume that any person who says that liberty/bodily autonomy isn’t absolute is a person that no one should be around.
Also, how is ripping apart a tiny human being NOT violating another person’s bodily autonomy? Unborn babies are inside women’s bodies, but they’re not part of women’s bodies. They’re seperate, individual people.
PCG, please answer my question re: guns for an example of how a right can exist, yet not be absolute.
What crime did unborn babies commit? Abortion’s giving them the death penalty.
The right to gun ownership is not equal to the right to liberty/bodily autonomy.
Since you believe bodily autonomy can be taken away, how many people have you assaulted, Lauren? Do you have a significant other? I can’t imagine dating a person who told me that he thought it’d be okay to take away my bodily autonomy under certain circumstances. I would run far, far away. I do not want to get raped again.
Also, consider the following scenerio.
We can agree that a right to privacy exists. However, this right is not absolute.
A dependent child can infringe upon her parent’s right to privacy by demanding to be fed/sheltered. A parent can not claim a right to privacy and force the child to live outside in the shed.
However, a robber can not come into the house and demand shelter. In fact, the homeowner can take lethal action to protect the home/right to privacy from intrusion from the robber.
In such situations, we can see that while dependent children have rights that override their parents’ right to privacy, a robber does not.
The same can be said of unborn children vs rapist in the case of bodily autonomy.
“The right to gun ownership is not equal to the right to liberty/bodily autonomy”
That is irrelevent (and untrue). The point is that you can view a right as existing without being absolute. Obviously you acknowledge that this is possible, yet you insist upon clinging to your flailing thesis.
“I can’t imagine dating a person who told me that he thought it’d be okay to take away my bodily autonomy under certain circumstances.”
I can’t imagine dating a person who told me that it would have been totally okay for my mother to have me ripped apart in the womb, if that was what she had wanted to do.
“The point is that you can view a right as existing without being absolute.”
Yes, you most certainly can. Doesn’t mean that it’s not sick and twisted to think that it’s okay to take a person’s bodily autonomy away.
Ashley,
I read that 80% of women that were raped and became pregnant and then had an abortion regret it.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2010/apr/10042807.html
Here you go, PCG.
Way to tell any young mother reading this thread who was raped and is now carrying her pregnancy to term that she is being “reraped.”
You are in pain. It is obvious to all of us who read your posts. Please get help or your anger and bitterness are going to eat you up inside.
Oh, and you stated somewhere up there that the prolife movement exploits those that regret their abortions and I was wondering if you could elaborate on how the prolife movement has exploited me. Thanks.
“Since you believe bodily autonomy can be taken away, how many people have you assaulted, Lauren?”
None, I have actually been the victim of sexual assult.
“Do you have a significant other?”
Yes, I have been happily married for 5 and a half years. Stop being melodramatic. You clearly acknowledge by deflection that rights can come into conflict and be weighed against other rights, but you continue to beat your insane drum that they can not.
Oh, and Ashley, you have no problem what so ever saying that the right to LIFE can be infringed upon to protect another person’s right to bodily autonomy.
Clearly you do not view the right to life as absolute. Care to explain how that is possible in light of your argument that someone can not support a right unless they do so absolutely, and without compromise?
Sorry, That should have been addressed to PCG, not Ashley! (sorry, Ashley!)
“Yes, you most certainly can. Doesn’t mean that it’s not sick and twisted to think that it’s okay to take a person’s bodily autonomy away.”
No one is trying to take a person’s bodily autonomy away. We don’t say that once a woman becomes pregnant she is open game to be raped, injected, or otherwise compromised.
It also clearly does not mean that we support rape, which was your claim. Thank you for finally admiting that we can recognize rights without saying that they are absolute. That pretty much puts the nail in the coffin of your argument that we’re all rape supporters.
carla- Your link is from a useless anti-choice source. Not that it would matter. It doesn’t matter if 99% of rape victims choose to go through their pregnancies or 1%. It’s still disgusting and inhumane to force her through her pregnancy.
I said that it would have been 9 more months of rape for me, and that I know that there are other girls out there who were/are in the situation that I was in. That does not equal saying that all women feel/felt the same way that I did. Why even bother speaking to me if you’re going to make up things like that? What’s the point?
“Oh, and Ashley, you have no problem what so ever saying that the right to LIFE can be infringed upon to protect another person’s right to bodily autonomy.”
Once again, the right to life does not equal the right to use a person’s body against his or her will. Try rereading that sentence a few times over instead of asking me to repeat it again and again.
“No one is trying to take a person’s bodily autonomy away.”
Great, so you’re pro-choice now!
Lauren says *head desk*
I say *head brickwall*
Ouch.
Actually, that was less painful than trying to rationalize with someone who is 100% completely irrational.
I’ve avoiding mowing long enough. Keep up the good fight prolifers. PCG is here for a reason, she just doesn’t know it yet.
Love you PCG.
“Once again, the right to life does not equal the right to use a person’s body against his or her will”
Ok, then you are saying that the right to life is not absolute. Thus, according your logic, you are anti-life and support post-birth murder.
This is the EXACT parallel of your “argument” that we are pro-rape. Can you see how absurd it is?
Comprehension fail. :\ Do you do that on purpose?
What do I not comprehend, PCG?
Please, enlighten me.
Explain to me how the restrictions you place on the right to life are fundamentally different that restrictions I place on right to bodily domain.
What gives you the ability to limit a right while still claiming to fundamentally support it, but strips the same ability from me?
I’ll wait.
When you demand the ‘right’ to kill a human being (the conceived child) in order to expedite the mother’s recovery from rape, you absolutely DO put a time limit on recovery from rape. I find it personally insulting. Who are you and your pro-abortion cohorts to tell me how long a woman should take to recover from rape? How dare you? A pregnancy only lasts 9 months.
And most importantly for you to understand PCG, one can and often does recover from rape. You recover from a car accident, and some people are even lucky enough to recover from cancer (wish they all could). If you do not believe that one can recover from rape, you have a mental/spiritual/emotional wound that has not yet healed. You give your rapist more credit than he deserves. Mine stole one lousy day. He does not get the rest of my life. And if there had been a child, she would not deserve the death penalty for her father’s crime.
Meh. Do you have any studies or sources to back up your assertions, PCG?
If a woman chooses to carry her child to term after conceiving in rape how is she being forced??
I apologize to all women reading this if you are pregnant as a result of rape and are giving life to your child. I apologize for PCG’s comments. They are vile and come only from a well of bitterness and rage.
To my friends who carried their babies to term after conceiving them in rape THANK YOU! You are an amazing display to the world of redeeming love and grace. I love you so much! I applaud you!! You are heroes!! :)
“So then you’re against bodily autonomy, aka you’re PRORAPE.”
what about the baby’s bodily autonomy PCG?
if you are so FOR bodily autonomy, why was it wrong for your rapist to what he did to you?
After all ProChoiceGal, he was simply exercising his bodily autonomy, right? Why is it wrong for him to do violence to you but it is not not wrong for you to dismember a baby in the name of “bodily autonomy”.
If anyone is pro-rape, it would HAVE to be proaborts like you. The bodily autonomy rights either exist for everyone in every situation or they don’t.
PCG’s position: The right to life exists, but not at the expense of the right to bodily autonomy.
Pro-life position: The right to bodily autonomy exists, but not at the expense of the right to life.
Please, PCG, tell me how these two positions are fundamentally different in terms of respect for rights in general.
“Great, so you’re pro-choice now!”
Depends on what you mean by “choice”. I support a woman’s right to choose whether or not to have sex. If that right is taken away for her, or she chooses to have sex and ends up pregnant, I support her right to choose to parent her child or give him/her up for adoption.
I do not support the “right” to kill an innocent human being.
“It doesn’t matter if 99% of rape victims choose to go through their pregnancies or 1%. It’s still disgusting and inhumane to force her through her pregnancy.”
But it’s not disgusting or inhumane to dismember a defenseless human being?
“To my friends who carried their babies to term after conceiving them in rape THANK YOU! You are an amazing display to the world of redeeming love and grace. I love you so much! I applaud you!! You are heroes!! :)”
Well said, Carla :)
To my friends who carried their babies to term after conceiving them in rape THANK YOU! You are an amazing display to the world of redeeming love and grace. I love you so much! I applaud you!! You are heroes!! :)
Posted by: carla Author Profile Page at May 23, 2010 11:16 AM
I couldn’t agree more. These women are true heroes. It’s one thing to go through pregnancy when you have the support of the father and a family behind you etc. etc.
But to carry a baby to term – to do something that is giving and completely unselfish and sacrificial, where there is no APPARENT reward is amazing. To turn a truly evil act into and act of love is what these women have done.
“When you demand the ‘right’ to kill a human being (the conceived child) in order to expedite the mother’s recovery from rape, you absolutely DO put a time limit on recovery from rape. I find it personally insulting. Who are you and your pro-abortion cohorts to tell me how long a woman should take to recover from rape? How dare you? A pregnancy only lasts 9 months. ”
Once again, can you read? I never said that abortion will relieve the pain of a rape, I said that it can prevent further trauma for some women. I also never said that I expect a woman to recover within 9 months.
..why do anti-choicers like making things up?
“one can and often does recover from rape.”
I never said otherwise.
“Mine stole one lousy day”
First you say that I’m a sicko for apparently claiming that women must recover from rape within 9 months (even though I never said that).. And then you say that the pain is only supposed to last one day. ..what?
Lauren-
I’m not putting restrictions on the right to life. I’m saying that the right to life doesn’t give a person other random rights, like the right to rape for example. The right to life and the right to use a person’s body against his or her will are completely different, and only one is a valid right.
Carla-
“If a woman chooses to carry her child to term after conceiving in rape how is she being forced??”
Wow. I’m not sure if you’re dumb or if you’re trying to irritate me on purpose. I never said that if a woman chooses to carry to term that she’s being forced. If she has no other option, then yes, she’s being forced. Anti-choicers are trying to force women through pregnancies by requiring them to carry to term by law.
“! You are an amazing display to the world of redeeming love and grace. I love you so much! I applaud you!! You are heroes!! :)”
Too bad you don’t love women who don’t want to carry their rape pregnancies to term.
Let me spell this out for you using little words, carla. A woman should not be forced to carry a rape pregnancy. I have no idea how you can go from that to “All women who go through rape pregnancies are being forced”.
“if you are so FOR bodily autonomy, why was it wrong for your rapist to what he did to you?”
Because I’m for bodily autonomy.
I find it a bit ironic that rape is still used as a rationale for abortion. Norma McCorvey admitted in her book Won by Love that the rape story was a lie. Roe v Wade is based on a lie. A lie is a house built on sand.
PCG
It’s too bad you are so irrational that trying to have a conversation with you goes nowhere.
Where did I say I don’t love women who don’t carry their pregnancies to term after they have been raped?? Since I have friends who fit into that category as well and are NOW SPEAKING OUT about their experience I would have to say that all you know how to do is spew. I love them too!! They are heroes to me as they are telling the world that ABORTION DID NOT HEAL THEIR RAPE!!
Girl, seriously. Call it a day.
And what about women who are in the situation that I was in? Do you care about them? What about women who would be much more traumatized by a rape pregnancy than by the rape themselves? You obviously don’t care about them, considering the fact that you want to traumatize them with a pregnancy. You only “care” about women who you can exploit to advance the anti-choice cause.
Pro-Choice Gal: ” The right to life and the right to use a person’s body against his or her will are completely different, and only one is a valid right.”
I am confused by your argument. Are you suggesting that the right to life is not a valid right by this statement, or are you suggesting that the right to life can be taken away, but the right to bodily autonomy can not?
I stand by my own words here. PCG, you contradict your very own words even within your very own posts.
“if you are so FOR bodily autonomy, why was it wrong for your rapist to what he did to you?”
Because I’m for bodily autonomy.
Posted by: ProChoiceGal at May 23, 2010 11:27 AM
great than you should have no problems with your rape Prochoicegal.
Because your rapist was exercising his bodily autonomy.
He felt like raping you and acted. He did nothing wrong.
You feel like killing unborn babies because of bodily autonomy.
So now were are even. All is good. :)
” Are you suggesting that the right to life is not a valid right by this statement, ”
No. I was suggesting that the right to use a person’s body against his or her will is not a valid right.
“Wow. I’m not sure if you’re dumb or if you’re trying to irritate me on purpose. ”
Pretty ironic statement considering the stuff you spew out on this site.
“Too bad you don’t love women who don’t want to carry their rape pregnancies to term.”
When did Carla say that? When has anybody on this site said that? Talk about problems with comprehension.
“Let me spell this out for you using little words, carla.”
Go ahead and use little words if those are the only ones you know ;)
“A woman should not be forced to carry a rape pregnancy. ”
A woman should not be raped in the first place. Unfortunately, it happens. It’s sad, it’s unfair, but it’s reality.
Of course I care. Now you will say Oh, no you don’t!!
How about you come up with every possible scenario about every possible woman that you possibly can and then keep saying How about them? Or them? or them?? Do you love them? or them? or them? Or them?
That would be fun.
Maybe next you can write I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I and then write Neener, Neener, Neener! or Liar, Liar pants on fire!! And then blow raspberries at your computer screen.
How is WANTING to traumatize them further caring about them, carla? That’d be like me saying that I care about rape victims and going on to promote rape apologism.
“First you say that I’m a sicko for apparently claiming that women must recover from rape within 9 months (even though I never said that).. And then you say that the pain is only supposed to last one day. ..what?”
And SHE never said pain was “supposed” to last for one day. She said it lasted one day for her. You don’t have any qualms with misquoting or misrepresentation except when it happens to you.
No. I was suggesting that the right to use a person’s body against his or her will is not a valid right.
Posted by: ProChoiceGal at May 23, 2010 11:40 AM
oh I get it! Except of course, unborn babies who have no right to bodily autonomy because of their location.
Maybe you were in the wrong location, the day of your rape PCG?
PRG: “No. I was suggesting that the right to use a person’s body against his or her will is not a valid right.”
My bad, I just woke up. I picked that line because it looked like it summed up your argument. I read it to fast.
Here is what I wanted quoted.
PCG: “The right to bodily autonomy is absolute, and I think it’s safe to assume that any person who says that liberty/bodily autonomy isn’t absolute is a person that no one should be around.”
So, are you suggesting that the right to life is not absolute, but that bodily autonomy is? Or are you meaning the phrase absolute to mean “unimpeachable” and not “paramount?”
If you mean unimpeachable, we are all in agreement. What is happening is a simple confusion of language (of which, I am sure you are aware.) If you mean “paramount” then I ask you why? Why is bodily autonomy a more “important” right than right to life?
Now, if you mean that the right to life can be comprimised and that bodily autonomy cannot, you will have a hard time explaining that.
Oliver-
All I was saying was that the right to life means having the right to life and the right to life alone. It does not mean having the right to use a person’s body against his or her will. It does not mean having the right to steal from stores. It does not mean having the right to murder. It means having the right to life alone. If the right to life meant being able to use a person’s body against his or her will, then self defense in cases of rape would not be allowed. I see a woman having abortion as a person defending her bodily autonomy. If the only way to do so is to kill the fetus, then that’s what has to happen if she so chooses.
PCG,
I am on the other end of traumatizing women, my dear. I help women in abortion recovery including those that have been raped. I walk with women who were pressured to abort and now are giving up their babies in open adoptions.
But continue to paint me as the bad guy when you don’t have anything else to say.
Your arguments are pathetic and you know it.
carla- but you do nothing for women who are traumatized by their pregnancies other than traumatizing them further. You only “care” about certain women- the ones who agree with you.
Okay, then using the same arument, the right to bodily autonomy is the right to bodily autonomy, and it also not the right to kill or the right to steal and so forth. (This is partly why MOST people support cavity searchs. I’m curious, do you?)
So why is it that the mother can defend her right to bodily autonomy by taking the life of the fetus, but that the fetus cannot defend its right to life by taking advantage of the mother’s bodily autonomy?
Anyone who knows me knows that what you wrote is false, PCG. False. You are wrong. The only problem is that when you are wrong you do not admit it. :(
Oliver-
All I was saying was that the right to life means having the right to life and the right to life alone. It does not mean having the right to use a person’s body against his or her will. It does not mean having the right to steal from stores. It does not mean having the right to murder. It means having the right to life alone. If the right to life meant being able to use a person’s body against his or her will, then self defense in cases of rape would not be allowed. I see a woman having abortion as a person defending her bodily autonomy. If the only way to do so is to kill the fetus, then that’s what has to happen if she so chooses.
Posted by: ProChoiceGal at May 23, 2010 11:56 AM
except that the right to bodily autonomy that you speak of is based on location
a person who is in the wrong “location” such as an unborn baby therefore loses his/her right to bodily autonomy even though that person did not initiate the choice of location and indeed has no other location to go to…
does this make ANY sense to you PCG?
Why was your rape wrong? Maybe you were in the wrong location and you lost your bodily autonomy rights and the rapist chose to exercise his bodily autonomy?
Gotta go. Lunchtime for children. Maybe I can traumatize them with PB and J and not mac and cheese.
Oliver-
Do you take that same stance with self defense? If a woman is being raped and the only way she can defend her bodily autonomy is by killing the rapist, do you support self defense? If the answer is yes, then you aren’t being consistent.
carla-
“Anyone who knows me knows that what you wrote is false, PCG. False. You are wrong. The only problem is that when you are wrong you do not admit it. :(”
You support forcing rape victims through pregnancies, even if the pregnancy would traumatize her, correct? If that is correct, then nothing that I said about you was wrong.
carla- but you do nothing for women who are traumatized by their pregnancies other than traumatizing them further. You only “care” about certain women- the ones who agree with you.
Posted by: ProChoiceGal at May 23, 2010 11:59 AM
you are 100 percent wrong PCG.
I have never met Carla in person, but she has ALWAYS shown compassion to others on this board, and especially to those who don’t agree with her at all.
She helps those women who want to be helped and are also READY to be helped.
As for the rest, I know they are in her heart and her prayers.
She’s been there and KNOWS more than most of us just what their CHOICE really is.
If you want to dump on someone, you’ve picked the most wrong person to do it on this blog. :(
PCG: “Do you take that same stance with self defense? If a woman is being raped and the only way she can defend her bodily autonomy is by killing the rapist, do you support self defense? If the answer is yes, then you aren’t being consistent.”
How am I not being consistent? I haven’t presented an argument yet. I am merely questioning your logic. You seem to be suggesting, out of hand, that bodily autonomy DOES allow someone to violate other’s rights, but that this is not the case for the right to life. Why is there a distinction?
My personal argument is a little different from what you are saying, honestly. I just want to understand exactly why you believe what you do. (For example, I would still like to know if you support cavity searches designed to, I dunno, locate and eliminate known bomb/biological weapon threats.)
Also, why is that you believe that by ever accepting that autonomy is not paramount, that we support any and all rape? You obviously do no believe that the right to life is fully paramount, so does that mean you support any and all murder?
I have a question for you, PCG.
If bodily autonomy is superior to all else, what would be wrong with your deciding to kill yourself if you’d been pregnant? That would have been your choice. Do you think you would have wanted someone to say, “It’s okay, honey, you’re going to make it through this,” or do you think you would have wanted them to say, “Well, that’s your decision. Here at the Suicide Clinic, we offer nooses, razor blades, and poison”?
You say that if a woman told you she wanted an abortion, you would help her get one, no questions asked. If you had told someone you wanted to kill yourself, would you have wanted them to help you kill yourself, no questions asked? Or would you have desperately been hoping for another option?
Many women who go to abortion clinics for information are hoping that the people there will offer them an alternative. By and large, they don’t, and these women feel as though they have no choice but to have an abortion. We’re supposed to think it would be tragic for you to feel as though you had no choice but to kill yourself – and we do, because it would have been tragic. Why don’t you think it’s tragic that some women feel as though they have no choices? Why wouldn’t you even want to ask them, “Why do you want to have an abortion? Do you know the other options you have? Do you know about the adoption agency the next town over or the crisis pregnancy center two streets away?”
Dont bother, yall, she’s busy trash talking you on Twitter (as predicted)
http://twitter.com/prochoicegal
My, my. We are dealing with an intellectual mastermind here! She is badmouthing us from twitter! TWITTER for crying out loud! I imagine it was something like…
“PPL who leik babies are RAPISTS OMG!!! WTF???? Srsly”
Having an abortion is not comparable to killing oneself, Marauder. I would not try to coerce a woman to give birth for the same reason I would not try to coerce a woman to have an abortion.
“If you’re for bodily autonomy then why is rape bad?” umm.. because I’m for bodily autonomy.”
yes but only for certain people – unborns are not included…
why was your rape bad PCG? Why? You were in the wrong location and the man exercised his bodily autonomy. Isn’t that ok? For him?
why don’t you have an answer to my question or to any of Oliver’s questions…
maybe because the logic doesn’t work??????
I stopped answering your questions because you called me a rapist, angel. I’m not even reading most of your nonsense.
Why did you not answer my question?
And for the record, although you did not call us rapists per se, you did suggest that we supported rapists.
“Having an abortion is not comparable to killing oneself, Marauder.”
Your right PCG. Having an abortion is comparible to killing a family member. Being the abortionist is comparible to being a hitman/hitwoman.
Your rapist had every right to rape you. You shouldn’t have been where he didn’t want you to be. There now you can feel better about calling me a pro-rapist.
Peace.
Okay, you don’t believe it’s the same. Wouldn’t you still want to make sure that a woman was having an abortion because she felt like she had a real choice, not because she felt like she had to have an abortion?
Well. Obviously PCG is only here to rile people up with absurd comments, and is not here to have any sort of reasonable discussion. I wonder why just about every pro-choicer does this? What is the fun in it? Well, hopefully she grows out of her weird trouble making phase. I am heading off to work.
I stopped answering your questions because you called me a rapist, angel. I’m not even reading most of your nonsense.
Posted by: ProChoiceGal at May 23, 2010 1:05 PM
aww, little bitty girl… too bad eh?
you ARE a rapist PCG.
that’s what you want to do to pregnant women.
You want to rape them just like you were raped…
There is absolutely NOTHING DIFFERENT from what you will do as an abortionist to what was done to you
you will be raping women by aborting their children and you will rerape those you’ve already aborted…
thus perpetuating the cycle of violence
and your reason: bodily autonomy! ha! lame!
and obviously you are reading it – the truth hurts…
leaving too, to get back to the real world with real people who love others and don’t believe in rape or abortion… :D
Pro-Choice Gal
What I said was Do you carry mace with you? When the subject of rape comes up I always encourage women to carry a nice big bottle.
In no way was I justifying rape I was advocating prevention.
That’s not how to advocate prevention, myrtle. That doesn’t work. It does nothing but put the responsibility on the woman to not get herself raped. I wrote a blog post about this a while back: http://herauthority.blogspot.com/2010/03/how-to-prevent-rape.html
PCG, since your here:
Given the evidence presented, can you now admit that being pro-life does not equate to being pro-rape?
I need to make a correction on the 22nd @2:05 I couldn’t understand why the picture of the flowers was on the screen and attributed it to God, it’s because the flowers were part of several landscape pictures. I still believe though that the timing was not coincidental. And I believe the argument can still be made that what some perceive to have no value God sees everything as having value. And as I write that statement the song I Come To The Garden comes on the radio.Let me stop though lest my pearls be trampled upon.
PCG-
Greetings. If a person is being snide or is making the remark to put blame on a victim then yes it would be wrong. But this is something I recommend to anyone who has concerns about their safety. And although we are not responsible for any crime that is committed against us I absolutely believe to be prepared is very important. We shouldn’t have to lock our doors at night but we do. If what your saying is people who enpower crimininals anger you than I agree with that but I still believe being prepared for certain situations gives people a better chance at deterring a crime.
Do you only tell rape victims not to get themselves raped, or do you promote something that REALLY works? Your technique might a rape here and there. But it will make no real difference in the amount of rape we have in our society. We don’t tell people not to get hit by drunk drivers. That doesn’t make sense. We don’t tell people not to get murdered. That also doesn’t make sense. Why tell people not to get raped?
So you are anti self defense courses, PCG?
Nope, but they’re not the way to prevent rape. Why would you teach women not to get themselves raped when there is a MUCH more effective way- teaching people not to rape?
(answer- misogyny of course. Most people aren’t antirape at all)
Self defense courses do not prevent rape. I agree!!!
You better believe my daughter will learn how to defend herself though, PCG!
“Why would you teach women not to get themselves raped when there is a MUCH more effective way- teaching people not to rape?”
The answer of course is that teaching a woman how to defend herself gives her tools against potential attack. To give that woman a measure of protection, you only have to educate/equip one person.
Teaching people not to rape is much more difficult. You can reduce the number of rapes, but you have to get it right 100% of the time.
It shouldn’t be an either/or thing, but rather something done together.
Now, are you planning on answering my question, PCG?
No. Telling a woman that she is the one responsible for not getting herself assaulted puts the blame on HER if she does get assaulted. Teaching people to respect other people’s bodily autonomy (ahem) is a long term fix. Telling people not to get themselves rape does so much more harm than it does good.
No, it gives her a measure of control. It does not say that she is to blame if she does get assaulted, but it reduces her chances that she will be assaulted.
There was a serial rapist raping women under an underpass in our city. The local news warned women against being in the area alone. Should women have to avoid a place because of the actions of another? No. Was it still good advice? Of course.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with giving a woman tools to help her fend off an offender. We will never be able to stop 100% of rapists. No education campaign can prevent evil, and there are some people who are just plain evil.
However, we can limit the attacks through education campaigns for men, while at the same time giving women tools to help protect themselves from the truely evil who will not be reached by those education campaigns.
In other news, why won’t you answer my question?
Then why is it that most rape victims blame themselves for their assaults? Why do so many people say “I shouldn’t have been walking alone” or “I shouldn’t have been wearing that skirt” or “It was my fault for going into his house”? Because of the agenda that people like you promote. You’re putting the responsibility on people not to get themselves raped, and if they don’t live up to that responsibility, you send the message that it’s their fault.
I’m so sick of living in a rape apologist world. This is what causes rape. This is what causes years and years of pain for many people. Don’t you care at all?
Why the hell do you think you deserve an answer? You shove rape apologism BS down my throat and then expect me to be in a good enough mood to deal with your anti-choice BS, too?
“Teaching people to respect other people’s bodily autonomy (ahem) is a long term fix…”
Just like teaching people to respect their bodies and others, sex, life and the unborn also teaches them that sex has responsibilities and that it should be saved for marriage….(that’s a big stop for rape!)
Teaching people that unborn babies are equal to born people with rights too helps them see and understand that killing a baby does not fix the rape, and that carrying a baby to term respects the nature of the woman and respects the baby…. win win win for everyone….
unless you are a budding abortionist who doesnt’ understand the similarities between rape and abortion….;)
It’s not rape apologist. I never defended the rapist, nor did I blame the victim. I simply said that it is a good thing for a young woman to know how to defend herself. You know what? It is. Period, end of story.
I wish I had known some self defense to avoid the much larger man who assasulted me. Hell, I WILL teach my young children what to do if an adult attempts something with them, because that ALSO happened to me. The only reason I was able to get away from that situation is because my mother had told me to run away fast if anyone attempted to touch me. I did. I don’t blame myself for either of those situations.
I will tell teach my daughter self defense, and I will teach my sons not to rape. That is being rational, not living in some PC BS world where MORE women are raped because your a “rape apologist” if you teach a woman how to fight back.
I love how you refuse to answer my question because you know that you have been proven wrong and are too prideful to admit it. It doesn’t matter. Anyone who reads this interchange will see the truth. You’re pathetic.
Oh, and PCG. I was assaulted by a football player and an art teacher. Yet,strangely, I don’t lash out at all football players or art teachers and pretend that they are all pro-rape.
It’s really not that hard to distinguish between the actions of an individual and the will of any given group that they belong to. Maybe you should try it sometime.
And you people wonder why I never healed from my rape.
I’m so sick of living in a rape apologist world. I’m so tired.
“And you people wonder why I never healed from my rape.
I’m so sick of living in a rape apologist world. I’m so tired.
”
What the hell does that mean? We aren’t “rape apologists” For the last bloody time, we are not defending your rapist or telling you that you are to blame for your rape. We are simply saying that giving women the skills to fight off an attacker is a good thing.
Do you think it would have been better for my mother to have not told me what to do in the face of potential molestation and that man had done even worse to me? I disagree with alot that my mom has done, but I am forever greatful that she told me to run away from an attacker. Is she a “rape apologist” too?
She also organized rape awareness programs for our Jr. High that emphasized that it was never the woman’s fault for getting raped. Oh, and she’s prochoice. So…hmmm…maybe she’s only like a quarter rape apologist and she’d be a more true feminist if she had said nothing to me and I was raped and murdered at 3.
You don’t give a shit about anyone but yourself, do you?
“You don’t give a shit about anyone but yourself, do you?”
Where in the world do you get that idea? I just freaking said that I was going teach my daughter how to fight back and my sons to not be freaking rapists.
It seems as though I care a whole freaking lot about them, now doesn’t it. I also care about all the women in the world who are potential victims of rape. That’s why I want to empower them to fight back. I also want to teach men not to rape.
All you want to do is tell men not to rape. That’s great, but you leave a lot of women unprotected because, as I said before, there are evil men in the world who will rape regardless of what actions we take. I would rather my daughter have a can of mace and self defense trainging than a pep-talk on how everything would be ok if we could just educate people. Sorry, but at the point of interaction, a can of mace is going to do a lot more good.
Oh, and answer my question, PCG. Was my mom a rape apologist when she told me to run away from molesters? Would it have been better if that man had done more to me than he did? That is what you advocate when you say that we should do NOTHING to help women fight back.
If anyone here doesn’t give a shit about anyone but herself, it’s you.
Oh, and I should add that both my attackers had undergone classes on rape prevention that were drawn up exactly to meet your guidelines. Didn’t stop them, did they?
What’s really freaking ironic is that my mother (who’s a highschool counselor) actually had a hand in designing the program that the teacher saw. It was exactly what you would want, PCG. Hell, she even did “Take Back The Night” programs at the school.
Yeah, it didn’t stop an evil man from molesting a little girl.
The other attacker was a highschool student who had also seen the same type of anti-rape material. It didn’t stop him from physically overpowering me and forcing me to perform sexual acts. Gosh, maybe if he had just seen *more* anti-rape material he would have respected me when I told him I wanted to leave and did not want to have any sort of sexual relations with him. Or maybe being maced in the face would have done the same thing. I guess we’ll never know.
And you people wonder why I never healed from my rape.
I’m so sick of living in a rape apologist world. I’m so tired.
Posted by: ProChoiceGal at May 23, 2010 5:41 PM
yeah, cuz there’s rapists everywhere and everyone supports rape except ***gasp*** baby killing abortionists (who knew?)
paranoid….paranoid…
I think you might be having a psychotic break PCG….
“I’m so sick of living in a rape apologist world. I’m so tired.”
You keep using the word “apologist”. But, judging from your posts, I’m not sure you know what it means.
PCG and Lauren,
I am so so sorry for the abuse you have suffered.
There is hope and healing available to you. Jesus came to heal the brokenhearted.
He did it for Shelley and Ashley.
He can do it for you.
Thank you, Ed. Honestly, prior to today’s conversation, I have felt at peace about everything. I especially love this quote I saw a few days ago by Elizabeth Smart who, you may or may not know, was raped 3 or 4 times a day every day during her capture.
“I know that there is a God and He loves us and that no matter what people can take from you or do to you or harm you, they can’t take that away from you…. I want [the people of France] to know God exists and that He loves them, and there isn’t anything in this world that could possibly change what He feels for them.”
Great quote Lauren, thank you.
I’ve been gone most of the day and haven’t read the whole thread.
I know the debates here can reach a fever pitch sometimes…
I don’t know why, but my heart is really really sorrowful for anyone that has experienced sexual abuse. It sounds like you have adjusted pretty well but so many girls/women really struggle with shame and guilt. I don’t pretend to understand why.
My heart really goes out to PCG. I hope she is able to muster the courage to watch the link I posted.
There is real hope and healing available for victims of abuse, even when it doesn’t seem possible.
You people, all of you people, just love seeing others in pain. You will use any means possible to hurt a person, whether it’s through rape or through forced pregnancy. How low can you go?
Shut up, PCG. Just shut up.
Where the hell do you get off saying that we use rape to hurt people? None of us here have EVER raped anyone and have done nothing but express our sympathy for rape victims and talk about how we want to protect others from becoming victims.
You are either dispicable or deranged. Either way, get help.
PCG,
Deep down you know that’s not true. I feel sorry for you; I truly do.
Please seek professional help. You desperately need it.
You may want me to stop fighting against rape, Lauren, but I won’t shut up until there is absolutely no rape in our world. In other words, I will never shut up.
You only say that to be condescending, Lucy. That’s what Lauren did. “Awwww, I feel so sorry for you!” and then she goes on to openly support rape. You are the same. You’ll pretend to be a nice girl and then when you see that I won’t submit to you, you’ll start throwing out insults, just like Lauren. I’m not stupid, you people are predictable.
I studied abroad last year, and the people who run our program recommended we use the buddy system at night and avoid certain unsafe areas, in order to avoid being victims of theft, kidnapping, etc. I thought at the time they cared about us, but now I realize they were really just saying “we hate you young men and women so much that we’re going to offer you safety tips.” See, you guys? They really just wanted us to be victims of these violent crimes, and didn’t care if we were attacked, and would have blamed us if this occured. It is sad, but some people just hate college men and women with a passion. Bastards.
” and then she goes on to openly support rape”
Where? When did I say that I support rape? Please point me to that sentence. Please, I’d really like to see where I made that comment.
Oh, that’s right, it’s not there. I have done nothing but fight AGAINST rape. You’re the one who thinks I would be better off raped and murdered at 3.
I’ll be sure to tell my mom that she was wrong to tell me to run. I’m sure she would have loved attending my funeral or hospital bed with the knowledge that at least she had your approval as a true rape-fighter.
“That’s what Lauren did. “Awwww, I feel so sorry for you!” and then she goes on to openly support rape”
Do you have any quotes to support that?
“and then when you see that I won’t submit to you, ”
That’s a very..odd.. thing to say. This is why I suggested professional help in my previous comment. You clearly have some issues stemming from a traumatic experience that need sorting out.
“I’m not stupid,”
I don’t know for certain what your intellectual capabilities are, but so far, your comments on this site have done them little credit.
I still feel sorry for you.
Oh and PCG, maybe you can explain to me why rape-awareness classes did nothing to protect me. Not a thing. I thought they would buy the world a coke and teach us all to sing in perfect harmony.
Nope. They just left me hiding under my bed crying and wishing that my mom would hurry home and save me from my molester or setting and setting on the steps outside the gym wondering how such a “nice guy” could do something like that to me.
You say that I don’t care about women, yet you obviously don’t give a rat’s behind about my experience with men who went through your training, yet still came out as sexual abusers. What about women like me, PCG? Do we not deserve to learn to protect ourselves?
You say you fight for rape victims, but you would not have fought for me. Typical.
PCG seems to be the master at projection.
“I don’t care if she cares about me, I know she doesn’t.”
“It’s been years since I was raped, and I never healed.”
“Don’t you care at all?”
“As I said earlier, you don’t care.”
“I’m so sick of living in a rape apologist world. I’m so tired.”
PCG, are you having thoughts of suicide? I am concerned about you. Please, please find someone to talk to. I know you don’t trust any of us, but if you lived near me, I would come over to be with you right now.
I hope you believe you are in our thoughts and prayers.
Pro-Choice Gal-
The post at 4:30 who were you addressing?
In all honesty, PCG, I was headed down a similar path as you. I lashed out hard after my abuse. I found healing when I found God. I know you don’t want to hear it, there is sa God, and he loves you.
I don’t bring religion into the abortion debate because I know that so many on your side tune out whenever it’s mentioned. This isn’t about abortion, but rather you as a person.
There is a God, and he loves you.
Lauren, please don’t lose your peace. God loves you and this person is demonic. Satan wants you to be angry and not have peace. People like PCG just play into his hands and do his work. Imagine how happy he must be: she was raped and now she’s going to spend the rest of her life killing babies. The demons in hell will be overjoyed….
They will continue to feed this woman’s deep hatred for all things good and pure.
What a terrible shame….
And that Elizabeth Smart is just amazing. I wonder what she would say to ProChoiceGal?
“There is a God, and he loves you.”
We agree on something? Jeez. It’s a miracle. Why do you assume that I’m an atheist?
myrtle- I believe that comment was directed at you.
Pro-Choice Gal-
So what are we debating rape or murder?
Praxedes- No, I’m not suicidal. No need to worry about that.
myrtle- I was talking about rape.
you believe in God. Seriously?
You are nuttier than I originally thought.
And so you think that God would be ok with women aborting their children conceived through rape?
If you do, you don’t worship the same loving God that I do sister.
(you should join Prolife Catholics. You’d fit right in.)
Pro-Choice-
I believe rape is a crime. And so is murder.
PCG, if you’ve not healed from your rape, then would it not be more constructive to spend time with a professsional counselor working through the issues surrounding the rape, especially before going into a field of work where you’ll be working with other rape victims, rather than taking out your anger and viotrol towards the rape and the rapist on strangers, some of whom have been victims of sexual assault themselves, over the internet?
PCG, I agree with Rachael. If you re-read your posts, you are very, very angry, sarcastic, paranoid, defensive and sound quite depressed and bi-polar. You seem to be on the verge of a mental/nervous breakdown of some sort.
I recommend you call a professional counselor ASAP.
I actually did reread most of the posts, including mine, for a blog post that I’m writing. I don’t sound any more angry than I should sound. I am angry at rape. I’m sorry you don’t share that same anger.
I don’t really need you or Rachel pretending to care and telling me what to do and how to live my life. I’m not where near a nervous breakdown, but you wouldn’t care if I were. If I had gotten pregnant from rape, you would be very, very glad to bring me to a nervous breakdown.
And hey guys, don’t feel like you have to debate or respond to PCG’s claim that we’re “rape apologists” or “openly supporting rape” These are personal perspectives and projections based out of pain from a traumatic experience and a straw man argument at that and I really don’t think we’re going to get anywhere with this.
“I don’t really need you or Rachel pretending to care and telling me what to do and how to live my life.”
Nobody is forcing you to read their comments. You made a choice to come to this blog, to read it, and to try to pick a fight.
“If I had gotten pregnant from rape, you would be very, very glad to bring me to a nervous breakdown.”
You don’t think this sounds a little bit paranoid?
Do you still wonder why we are advising you to seek help?
Rachael C.,
Sadly, it seems you are right.
Lucy- Paranoid would be something like “I think all of you are the same person with different accounts and you’re just trying to screw with my mind”. That would be paranoid.
But, what I said has been proven. You people have said over and over again that you’d be glad to force me and other rape victims through traumatizing pregnancies.
PCG, we don’t have to fake being sincere, because I for one am a sincere person and any one of my friends in real life who’ve known me for 10+ years can verify that, and sure you don’t believe us right now, but don’t judge us based on our beliefs or what you perceive to be our beliefs, but our actions (and not just the negative stereotypes) and I invite you join me when I volunteer at the soup kitchen or for coffee or dessert at a restaraunt sometime in Indianapolis if you ever make it over this way and let you see for yourself.
Wow, Pro Choice Gal is one angry person. It’s amusing to read.
Why not spend your time trying to recruit/brainwash girls instead of trolling here? You’re never going to convince us that abortion is okay, just like we’re never going to convince you.
And as a survivor of rape, don’t you DARE use rape in any argument supporting abortion. That was a horrifying episode, it took eight years to get over. It had nothing to do with abortion, it had nothing to do with my rights. Abortions in the cases of rape and incest are less than 1%. Let’s focus on that 99% shall we?
And if rape and incest are SO prevalent that we need to keep abortion legal, then maybe we should start protecting our young women. Maybe Planned Parenthood could help. Oh, wait, they don’t. They actually turn a blind eye to this. What a bunch of hypocrites.
“You don’t think this sounds a little bit paranoid?”
No, it sounds VERY paranoid.
How come when someone has a bone sticking out they have no problem taking your advice to get help but when you suggest mental health care to deal with trauma they balk at it? The shame does not lie in getting help, it lies in not getting help when others can clearly see you could benefit from it. I spent several years in counseling to deal with issues surrounding rape and it is one of the best choices I ever made.
Prolifers, we all get an A+ for effort today. Peace.
This is also paranoid:
“But, what I said has been proven. You people have said over and over again that you’d be glad to force me and other rape victims through traumatizing pregnancies.”
No, we haven’t. That is merely how you have chosen to misinterpret our words. Deep down, you probably realize that.
I still feel sorry for you.
paranoid:Paranoid Personality Disorder is a condition characterized by excessive distrust and suspiciousness of others. This disorder is only diagnosed when these behaviors become persistent and very disabling or distressing.
Individuals with this disorder are generally difficult to get along with and often have problems with close relationships because of their excessive suspiciousness and hostility. Their combative and suspicious nature may elicit a hostile response in others, which then serves to confirm their original expectations. Individuals with this disorder have a need to have a high degree of control over those around them. They are often rigid, critical of others, and unable to collaborate, although they have great difficulty accepting criticism themselves.
They may exhibit thinly hidden, unrealistic grandiose fantasies, are often attuned to issues of power and rank, and tend to develop negative stereotypes of others, particularly those from population groups distinct from their own. More severely affected individuals with this disorder may be perceived by others as fanatics and form tightly knit cults or groups with others who share their paranoid beliefs.
In response to stress, individuals with this disorder may experience very brief psychotic episodes (lasting minutes to hours). If the psychotic episode lasts longer, this disorder may actually develop into Delusional Disorder or Schizophrenia. Individuals with this disorder are at increased risk for Major Depressive Disorder, Agoraphobia, Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, Alcohol and Substance-Related Disorders. Other Personality Disorders (especially Schizoid, Schizotypal, Narcissistic, Avoidant, and Borderline) often co-occur with this disorder.
yup. I think you qualify. Paranoid and delusional.
There you have it.
Lucy- Oh, so none of you have said that rape survivors should be legally forced to go through their pregnancies, no matter how traumatic it might be? That’s BS and you know it.
Rachael-
Did you mention something about Welbutrin about a week ago?
Paranoid Personality Disorder is a condition characterized by excessive distrust and suspiciousness of others.This disorder is only diagnosed when these behaviors become persistent and very disabling or distressing.
Individuals with this disorder are generally difficult to get along with and often have problems with close relationships because of their excessive suspiciousness and hostility. Their combative and suspicious nature may elicit a hostile response in others, which then serves to confirm their original expectations. Individuals with this disorder have a need to have a high degree of control over those around them. They are often rigid, critical of others, and unable to collaborate, although they have great difficulty accepting criticism themselves. They often become involved in legal disputes. They may exhibit thinly hidden, unrealistic grandiose fantasies, are often attuned to issues of power and rank, and tend to develop negative stereotypes of others, particularly those from population groups distinct from their own.
In response to stress, individuals with this disorder may experience very brief psychotic episodes (lasting minutes to hours). If the psychotic episode lasts longer, this disorder may actually develop into Delusional Disorder or Schizophrenia. Individuals with this disorder are at increased risk for Major Depressive Disorder, Agoraphobia, Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, Alcohol and Substance-Related Disorders.
yup. you qualify. You are paranoid AND delusional PCG.
There you have it.
So why not as frustrated as we all may be, treat PCG with kindness and patience knowing what she’s gone through and as to not further fuel and add to her anger.
Rachael-
Did you mention something about Welbutrin about a week ago?
Yes, Myrtle, why?
So why not as frustrated as we all may be, treat PCG with kindness and patience knowing what she’s gone through and as to not further fuel and add to her anger.
Posted by: Rachael C. at May 23, 2010 8:40 PM
I agree. Mental illness on top of rape (or as a result of the rape) is no laughing matter…:(
however, she has blown off any and all acts of kindness and concern expressed on this board.
” Oh, so none of you have said that rape survivors should be legally forced to go through their pregnancies, no matter how traumatic it might be?”
We said that nobody has the right to murder a defenseless human being. You chose to interpret that how you wished.
“That’s BS and you know it.”
I know that you are a very sad, disturbed human being. And I still feel sorry for you.
“Paranoid Personality Disorder is a condition characterized by excessive distrust and suspiciousness of others.”
Actually, I tend to trust most people. Not anti-choicers, obviously. I have no reason to trust you. Not wanting to trust people like you does not mean that I have a mental disorder. You are undermining the experiences of people who do have mental disorders. Also, I highly doubt you’re a doctor, so you’re not qualified to diagnose me or anyone else with a mental disorder. Thanks for trying (actually, no, not really.)
Of course we don’t expect you to accept the diagnosis PCG.
This merely proves the point. :D
Rachael-
Bless you. I suspected I was add and I knew I also had depression. Anyway I was tested for both and am add and have mild depression. I started on Wellbutrin on the 10th and feel so much better. I’m also able to focus better which is a good thing because I’m going to school. Thanks.
oh, and about that blog post.
Please write it because it will show the world exactly how paranoid and delusional you really are…
Get help. Before you do harm to yourself and many other people.
Ok, ladies, that’s enough playing armchair psychiatrist. We’re not going to get anywhere by self-diagnoses and it’s only likly to invoke more distrust and hostility (I know I’d be a little peeved if a non-medical professional was armchair diagosing me!)
“Then why is it that most rape victims blame themselves for their assaults? Why do so many people say “I shouldn’t have been walking alone” or “I shouldn’t have been wearing that skirt” or “It was my fault for going into his house”? Because of the agenda that people like you promote. You’re putting the responsibility on people not to get themselves raped, and if they don’t live up to that responsibility, you send the message that it’s their fault.”
Why do (some of)the born children of mothers who have aborted feel what is often described or termed “survivors guilt”? Why do they struggle with questions of “why was I chosen to live?” And wonder about their “invisible” sibling. If they were born before the sibling was aborted, some wonder, “Did my mom abort because I was too expensive/difficult/stressful/bad that she just couldn’t take on another baby?” People often blame themselves without any “help” from others in placing that blame, no matter how many times they are told “It wasn’t YOUR fault! You didn’t cause this!” Rape victims. Children of divorce. Kids who are abused emotionally, physically, & sexually. Women who are abused.
I fail to see how helping women feel like she has some level of power & control to at least ATTEMPT to fight back is making her feel like she deserved to be raped. We tell kids about “good touching & bad touching” & warn them about “stranger danger”. We tell them to RUN! Scream! Fight, kick, bite, TELL! We lock our car doors & our homes & shut our windows in an attempt to prevent being a victim of burglarly. We get alarm systems for everything & anti-theft devices on car stereos…even a firewall is an attempt at prevention. If your goods are stolen, identity is stolen or even if your KID is stolen, regardless of your attempt or lack or attempt at prevention, the CRIMINAL is still the one who was WRONG…not the person who forgot to lock up or who turned their back for 30 seconds & their kid was snatched from the park…the kid isn’t at fault if s/he is too surprised or scared to scream! The only one wrong is the CRIMINAL. But carrying mace, talking to kids & advising them on how to respond, taking a self defense course, locking your door, concealed carry, having a firewall, etc…is not blaming the victim. It isn’t pro-rape, pro-rapist, pro-robber, pro-child molester, pro-domestic violence, pro-kidnapping, etc…it is just working with the reality that is our current culture as we also educate about these crimes & PUNISH those who commit them!
Seriously-
Thank you.
perhaps getting back to the question at hand:
Anti-choicers, since you agree that preserving human life is more important than letting women make their own desisions [sic] about what happens to their bodies, would it be okay to force you to give up one of your kidneys in order to preserve human lives?
As predicted, PCGhoul has gotten lots of mileage on Twitter attacking folks here
http://twitter.com/prolife
And this dandy on what she calls a blog, which comes with a disclaimer that no antichoice comments will be allowed…
Hatred Fuels Their Souls
Anti-choicers seem to love hating people. It almost seems like a game to them. Pick any group of completely innocent people, and find a reason to hate them. Trans people? They hate them. Pregnant people? They hate them. Rape survivors? Well, they apparently hate them, too!
The subject of rape tends to come up a lot with me, particularly when I’m speaking about abortion. Rape and forced pregnancy are so closely tied together, it’s difficult to avoid the connection. Both are extreme violations of bodily autonomy, and I will fight against both for as long as I live.
However, I’ve noticed a bit of a trend. Whenever I mention rape, speak about my own rape, or call an anti out on his or her rape apologism (without even mentioning abortion), they go berserk. This is when they start calling me names, this is when they tell me to “shut up”, this is when they tell me that I’m playing the “victim card”. This is when they imply that I’m stupid, and tell me that I’m delusional. This is when they call me a rapist and/or a rape apologist. This is when they call me a whore, delusional, paranoid, psychotic, pathetic, a “little bitty girl”, a nut, and a Nazi.
Oh, and by the way, I made none of that up. Those are some of the things that anti-choicers have said to me recently. Aren’t they so peaceful?
All of this has got me thinking; What is it about rape that gets these people so riled up? Why do they get so angry when I advocate against rape? Well, I have a few ideas.
My first thought is that they will obviously be pro-rape. You either believe in bodily autonomy or you don’t. Anti-choicers obviously don’t believe in bodily autonomy when it comes to pregnancy, so why in the world would they believe in it when it comes to sex? They have no reason to. If they’re okay with traumatizing women with a pregnancy, they’ll also be okay with traumatizing women with rape.
My next thought is that this hatred comes from the fact that many rape survivors go against their agenda. Rape survivors easily debunk the “all women who have abortions are dirty little sluts” sentiment. They see me tell my story, and they get angry. My story is of a 14 year old who got raped who would have surely killed herself if she got pregnant and was forced through her pregnancy. This angers them. They only care to hear about the young teenagers who are raped and are overwhelmingly happy about carrying a rape pregnancy. That’s great for those girls, but what about all of the others? What about the ones who are/were in my situation? Anti-choicers go as far as they can to silence those who can not be exploited to advance an anti-choice agenda. Every time I speak about my rape experience, an anti-choicer straight up tells me to “shut up”. It’s very obvious that they’re trying to silence those who are bad for the anti-choice agenda. They like to pretend that people like me don’t exist. They might as well cover up their ears and scream “LALALALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU!”.
The more I interact with anti-choicers, the more I am convinced that 100% of them support rape in one way or another, and I am not exaggerating. Even the ones I trust the most do this to me. They will tell women that it’s their job to not get themselves raped, they will blame women for their own rapes, they will tell rape survivors that they must carry a rape pregnancy to term, they will stand by rape apologists if that rape apologist is anti-choice. I haven’t met one who doesn’t do anything any of those things. Not one soul.
And sadly, it doesn’t surprise me. Not one bit.
Oh, and anti-choicers, don’t even bother leaving rape apologist comments here. I’m telling you now, they will be deleted.
Her descent into hate is really quite disturbing. Comment away, since she can’t stop you here. (thats Liberal free speech for ya, kids)
Enjoy.
my bad, thats
http://twitter.com/prochoicegal
some real ‘caring for women’ gems there
Now, Jill, if you had actually read what I said, I said that no anti-choice RAPE APOLOGIST comments will be allowed. If an anti-choicer comments and doesn’t promote rape apologism, I will accept that comment. I specified “anti-choice” because I don’t expect pro-choicers to leave any vile comments like that.
If, by moderating my blog, I can provide one safe place for rape survivors, then it’s worth it. Sorry Jill, but I don’t care very much if it hurts your feelings that I’m not going to let rape apologists comment.
I can’t even go look. Did she take what I said out of context too?
I couldn’t care less. You can’t censor here. At least your consistent. Thanks for proving me right about you once again. Keep following your proscribed script-that and hate is all youve got, Adolf. The key word in your post is ‘story’. 00 percent of what you say is pure fiction. Take your rape fetish elsewhere. Better yet, call your local mental health line. See ya.
I couldn’t care less. You can’t censor here. At least your consistent. Thanks for proving me right about you once again. Keep following your proscribed script-that and hate is all youve got, Adolf. The key word in your post is ‘story’. 99 percent of what you say is pure fiction. Take your rape fetish elsewhere. Better yet, call your local mental health line. See ya.
You know what rape apologists do? They tell rape survivors that their rapes are lies, Jill.
No actual rape victim would treat other rape victims as you’ve done here. But please do go on and make an even bigger fool of yourself.
Myrtle-yep.
G’nite yall. Enjoy the ad nauseum rape analogies from PCG. It’s a telling look into the twisted, woman-hating doctrine of feminazism.
PCG,
I know blogging can be hard and you can go through dry spells but you only come here for blog fodder and stuff to tweet. Sad.
You are not safe for anyone who is struggling after rape or who regrets her abortion.
All one needs to do is read your comments on this thread to see your hatred and animosity.
Really Carla? I so did not know that. I totally didn’t know that I intentionally trigger myself just to write a blog post.
Oh wait, I don’t. You’re making stuff up again.
*cough*
Anyone else notice how PCG didn’t respond to my points, yet obviously saw them whilst lurking due to her other comments?
I’m still waiting for the explanation as to why pro-lifers are equitable with pro-rapists. I also wonder if pro-life rape survivors would find it very amusing that she makes the connection.
Rape is a very serious accusation, Pro-Choice Gal, not one to be abused for the sake of political gain. I doubt there are many rape survivors who would find your rhetorical leverage of rape against pro-lifers to be a very respectful treatment of the subject.
PCG: “My first thought is that they will obviously be pro-rape. You either believe in bodily autonomy or you don’t. Anti-choicers obviously don’t believe in bodily autonomy when it comes to pregnancy, so why in the world would they believe in it when it comes to sex?”
You know, I thought that you were just bringing this up to antagonize people on here, but it is starting to look like you actually think this sort of reasoning is logical.
The statment that “you either believe in bodily autonomy or your don’t” is almost laughable given the context within which you try to use it. Of course we believe in bodily autonomy, just like you believe in the right to life. We just believe that in pregnancy, the right to life, and for a child to not be neglected, outweighs the right to bodily autonomy (and privacy, and property, and so forth.) You believe that the right to bodily autonomy outweighs a human preborn’s right to life and to not be neglected of food and water.
Now, if you really wanted to discuss the issue of abortion, or even just how rape pregnancies fit into our interpretations of human civil rights, you really could start a meaningful conversation. No, you want to antagonize the pro-lifers here, not to legitimately discuss anything. This is why you are immature. It is also why your little game is, for the most part, shrugged off by the pro-lifers here.
Come back when you have aged a little bit, and maybe you can participate in some semblance of a reasonable conversation. Oh, and good luck on the Verbal portion of the MCAT. You’ll need it.
Okay, I caught up on some of things PCG has said here. Here is her thought process in a nutshell…
PCG: “Rape is bad…..being pro-life is bad…uhhhhh…therefore…being pro-life is being pro-rape! Duh!!”
(You know, the funny part is that many pro-lifers support abortion in the case of rape, and even if we don’t support abortion in this case, rape abortions are such a teeny tiny portion of all abortions that it really is not much of an issue for pro-lifers.)
“Nobody is forcing you to read their comments. You made a choice to come to this blog, to read it, and to try to pick a fight.”
Exactly.
PCG, you were not responsible for your rape, but you are responsible for your behavior and the choices you make in life. I think that right now you’re in a comfortable place – not a happy place, but a comfortable place. You’re used to lashing out at people who are sympathetic to you, and you’re used to using that to express your anger towards your rapist. You know you’re not happy. But change is hard, so you’re staying where you’re comfortable. You’re choosing to come here to try to hurt other people instead of spending the time you spend here going to therapy, or praying, or trying to find some peace in your life.
I used to be a big Alanis Morisette fan back in middle school, and the line “it’s not fair to deny me of the cross I bear that you gave to me” reminds me of you. Your rapist made you feel pain, and because you’re entitled to feel pain over something painful, you have the attitude that no one is going to take your anger from you. Living with this much anger is not good for you physically or emotionally. Feeling righteous outrage about rape is one thing. Dwelling in anger and pain and not trying to work past it is another.
You want to believe that we don’t care about you, and that we support rape. So you keep insulting us, hoping we’ll get angry at you so that you can stay in your unhappy but comfortable place. You’re used to it there. Being raped took away your sense of trust towards other people, so you don’t want to be vulnerable and trust, or even consider the possibility, that we have genuine sympathy for you and don’t want you to be so miserable.
That’s not a happy or healthy way to go through life. Even if you continue to hate and distrust us, please, PLEASE go to therapy and try to find some peace in your life. You haven’t healed, and you know that. Please try to heal. You owe it to yourself, because no one should go through what you went through and no one should be this unhappy.
Marauder, thanks for your last comment at 11:06PM.
I read through all of these comments just right now; I cannot possibly ever understand the horrible experience that PCG and other rape victims went through. I am willing, able, and wanting to help those people through actions, words, and prayer.
Regardless of my love towards my fellow man, especially to those who are victims of sexual crime, PCG has also claimed that I am pro-rape as well.
Why am I pro-rape according to PCG? The only reasons are that I’m pro-life and support self-defense measures.
I’ll say a special prayer for you, PCG. You truly need help. Please pray to God and ask Him for help. We all need His help.
I read through your comments, PCG. I thought through your reasoning, PCG. I respect your opinions, PCG. At the end, I respectfully cannot understand your logic and pray that your anger festering inside of you will subdue. Please do all that you can to have love inside of your heart that you may be able to show it to other people, even other people that you may disagree with (such as pro-lifers).
One last time (just for you PCG), I’m not a pro-rape apologist nor will I ever be. Get well soon.
ROFL at the ‘women lying about rape’ defense, PCG. Your entire ideology is built on perjured rape testimony. A woman lying about rape is what got your legal abortion. Rape apologist? Look in the mirror, hypocrite.
You people need lives. This “LOL u have a mental illness cuz ur against rape” stuff is getting sort of comical.
Jill, seriously, can you read? I never even had an abortion. If you had been reading my posts, you’d know that I would be dead if I had gotten pregnant.
The only people who assume that rape survivors are liars are rape apologists. Only 6% of rapists ever spend a day in jail, and that is the responsibility of people with attitudes like yours, Jill. You don’t give a shit about how many people you’re hurting.
Oh, and by the way, I am actually a very happy person. Just because I’m not thrilled to see people promoting the rape culture (and thus, promoting rape) does not mean that I am depressed. I know what depression feels like. I am not depressed. I SHOULD be angry at rape.
Just one question on bodily integrity for PCG:
What types of abortion do you plan to perform? Almost all of them violate the bodily integrity of the unborn and their right to life. Are you planning to only perform abortions in which the fetal human being is removed intact? If so, what happens if the newborn baby (once he or she is born, everyone seems to think he or she is called a baby, regardless of gestational age) moves, breathes, etc.? Will you stuff him or her in a biohazard sack? Wrap him or her in a blanket? Stab him or her with medical instrumentation? Is that baby then a separate person with rights? Or does his or her mother deserve the dead baby he or she paid for?
Even if you do plan to violate the bodily integrity of, say, an unborn child at 26 weeks, what if things go “wrong” and he or she is born? Have you thought about what you would do? Does it matter then how that baby was conceived? Why or why not?
What justification do you use if you plan to shred the fetus before or in order to remove it? Why would the right to bodily integrity of the fetus, even if secondary to that of the mother, demand some degree of respect?
My fourth grade daughter brought home a worksheet last week. Fact or Opinion.
Chocolate ice cream is the best. O
The male seahorse has the babies. F
PCG,
Every single one of your post is missing four little letters. IMHO. It is your OPINION that we are all rape apologists. You have no facts to back up your assertions. You have gotten your “material” for the week. Your opinion is warped by blind hatred for the prolife movement. You are intellectually dishonest to continually trot out your opinion as fact and write it out for the 4 commenters you have at your blog that hate as you do. Your bitterness and rage will eat you up inside.
I have been raped twice in my life. I have been accused of lying about these rapes. I know other women have been accused of lying about being raped.
THIS DOES NOT MEAN PCG that there are not women who actually do lie about being raped. There are crual women in this world just as there are cruel men. After the nasty things you have said about rape survivors, I put you in the cruel category. But as I said before you need to hold this terribly mean streak in the spot where your heart should be iin order to kill humans. You can be assured that those who sought you out and ‘support’ you aborting children recognize this streak, your vulnerabily and low self-esteem. You have what it takes.
Oh, and I talk to my children and other children (girls and boys!) about staying safe and doing everything possible to prevent being molested or raped. UNDERSTAND YOUNG LADY THAT THIS DOES NOT MEAN I CONDONE RAPE. To say any different is cruel and totally insane.
I am a safe driver but I know people get picked up for drunk driving. I think I will stop wearing my seatbelt so as not to be a drunk-driver apologist. Duh….
Get some help.
PCG, on your blog post, where you claim that pro-lifers “condone rape”, and “hate pregnant women”, etc… I notice that you don’t hyperlink to this discussion so your readers can see pro-lifers’ words for themselves to confirm what you have said.
Are you afraid that your readers won’t agree with your interpretation of the words here?
I dare you to link to this discussion so your readers (who I’m sure you think are smart enough to understand) can decide for themselves whether your accusations about the pro-lifers here are accurate or not.
If you can’t do this, then you obviously aren’t confident enough that what you say is true.
“LOL you don’t agree with me so I’m going to diagnose you with a mental disorder!”
Nope. We were nice to you and offered you our sympathies over what happened to you.
You showed us your paranoid AND delusional side.
Most people, no make that almost everyone who comes on this board who is offer support and sympathy for their situation, thank those who do so.
You became ignorant, insulting and simply restate and restate your ideas without mounting any defense.
There was no need for armchair diagnosis.
Your responses are those of a severely disturbed person.
Not to mention that you have compeletely hijacked this thread.
I am a safe driver but I know people get picked up for drunk driving. I think I will stop wearing my seatbelt so as not to be a drunk-driver apologist. Duh…
Oh Praxedes obviously you have just outed yourself- you HATE people who drive safely! You WANT them to be hit by drunk drivers. You want people to die in car accidents because think they should wear a seat belt and try to protect themselves. Remember, people shouldn’t HAVE to take measures to protect themselves- we should just tell everyone not to drive drunk! Obviously!
So that you don’t misunderstand PCG, I should have added that I also talk with young people about respecting/disrespecting each other and that no means no, etc. etc. Communication and education. So I don’t just come from a defensive standpoint regarding rape.
That said, I respectfully ask you to quit disrespecting survivors of rape, including yourself.
Oh and if you happen to lock your home’s doors at night,you are obviously PRO-MURDER, PRO-KIDNAPPING, and PRO-THEFT!!
I’ve kept up with this debate the last few days, and I admire all of the pro-lifers here so much. Their patience, love, compassion, and understanding during all of this has been amazing. You have been so clear and articulate with your words, and you must have the patience of saints.
Bethany, the sad thing is just how distorted this young woman’s view of life is and how angry she is.
The other thing that makes me very sad is that her prochoice “friends” agree with her only because she supports abortion.
I”m betting many of them think she’s loopy too and they serve only to enable this young woman’s behaviors. I hope PCG gets the help she so dearly needs. :(
Angel, you’ll notice that PCG completely distorted the conversation and failed to point out that she was quite nasty to us. She acts as though she came here with sweetness and butterflys and we responded by saying mean things because we hate women.
Er, you can read the interaction, that isn’t what happened. At all.
One last word on the whole “rape apologist” bs. As Bethany pointed out, we take percautions against other crimes, even though that doesn’t mean that we blame the victim if something happens.
We lock our doors at night to protect against theaft or murder. Should we have to? In a perfect world, no. We don’t live in a perfect world. The local police dept. tells us to “take, hide, lock” when we go into downtown in order to give us some protection against theft. Should we be able to leave a shiny new I-Pad in the front seat of our BMW with the keys in the ignition? Again, in a perfect world, yes. In our world, we recognize that we might need to take some actions to protect our property. It’s still not our fault if someone takes our stuff, but we can reduce our risk.
I was talking about the prejured rape testimony of Norma McCorvey, Adolf. You may have heard of Roe v Wade, its what your little house of cards is built on. Lying about rape is what got your ilk legal babykilling. You’re ok with rape apologism as long as it works in your favor, and you’re ok with lying about others to get material for a crap blog post that three or four proaborts will read. Whoopee frackin do. Even they appear to be tiring of defending your broken record semantics, as you repeat the same two talking points which are only opinions (as stated above). As a wannabe abortionist, I’m sure women lying about rape in order to procure abortion won’t trouble your nonexistent conscience one whit. What are you going to do if you actually make it far enough in med school to reach the embryology section of the program? Tell the professors they are rape apologists for saying the unborn are alive and human? I suspect by then you’ll have already started your career babbling to yourself on buses, because everyone else will have stopped listening by then. Keep attacking rape victims here, it shows the world what your side really values-absolutely nothing. Then again, you can’t expect a movement that sows death to reap anything other than what they sow. You are the classic example of the culture of death-dead inside.
This is simply one of the strangest defenses of the pro-choice position that I have ever seen…
well Bobby the old ones are getting pretty lame so maybe they just need something new ;)
I’ve yet to see ANY prochoice position that holds up under scrutiny….
Bizarre is more like it. Attacking rape victims and then shrieeeeking about speaking against rape. Her appalling and hurtful comments say otherwise. According to the timeline she sat on her all weekend hurling insults at rape victims, and she tells us to get a life. Comical. Maybe her ‘spouse’ was grounded over the weekend? If she actually cared about rape victims she’d apologize to the ones she’s repeatedly hurt here. Will never happen.
I wanted to thank those of you who have been raped and kept your cool with PCG. My heart aches for what you have been through and I love the peace you brought to this thread. God bless you!!
Pro Choice Gal has NO IDEA.
I’m a pro-life rape survivor, who’s also been through a crisis pregnancy. I’m not religious, I’m pro gay marriage, and I’m also a pescatarian. If anyone is fueled by hatred, it’s her.
Nothing justifies the killing of an unborn person. Nothing. Abortion is selfish, disgusting, and completely unnecessary. The industry is based on lies and obfuscation. It is the most anti-feminist thing I can think of. How anyone can spend so much energy defending it, and then hating people who care about BOTH women AND unborn babies is beyond me.
I posted this on her blog. I doubt she’ll approve it, but if she had an ounce of intellectual honesty she would.
“”Every time I speak about my rape experience, an anti-choicer straight up tells me to “shut up”.”
No, I told you to shut up because you accused me, a fellow victim of sexual assualt that I “will use any means possible to hurt a person, whether it’s through rape or through forced pregnancy. How low can you go?”
You said this because I advocate teaching young girls self defense in much the same way that I would teach her to hide expensive belongings if she were going downtown. This is in addition to teaching young men to value women and not to rape. Apparantly this makes me a “rape apologist” or worse someone who “uses rape to hurt a person.”
You completely misrepresent our argument here, and I think you should at least have the intelectual honesty to provide a link to Jill’s site so that your readers can read the full text of our conversation and see how little you care about rape and assault survivors who don’t fit YOUR agenda.
good grief, this woman is married? :(
The whole point may be moot. The so-called “health care reform” is leading to the government declaring ownership of body parts after death as is done in other countries with socialized medicine. Mandatory harvesting. Family will have no say.
At some point, there will be mandatory organ registration via blood tests. Remember “Coma”??
“Prochoicegal” is not pro-choice. Like her fellow travelers she is only “pro-choice” until a child is born. After that, the government must make all our choices for us.
I have seen many comments from “PC’s” in support of mandatory termination of defective babies because “they will only be a burden on tax payers later.” But then they support all sorts of welfare programs and laws that destroy families which lead to increased poverty and government dependence.
If my child needed a kidney, I will give it even if it meant I would not survive.
I know a mother who put off cancer treatment until after her child was born even though she new the delay could cost her her own life and it did. Yet in the latter case, doctors have gone to court to try to declare such mothers incompetent to force an abortion to start cancer treatment. How is that a choice?
Don’t pro-aborts see that there are people willing to put others’ needs before their own? Why does this concept anger them so much?
Oh no…just saw a bunch of yard signs with pictures of motorcycles on them & the words “Look Twice, Save a Life!” and reminders to “Always Wear a Helmet”. Guess my town is full of people who hate bikers! A whole town of people who are pro-crash-into-a-motorcyclist apologists!
And those bastards that put on so-called “public service announcements! Use a booster seat? Use an infant carseat & make sure is isn’t facing forward? Do you know they actually have pro-kids-dying-in-car-crashes personnel at hospitals & fire departments to show you & help you install “safety seats”? And all along, they are really BLAMING the victims of crashes for being killed or injured, hoping others will soon join that firey fate. Guess I better remove my kids carseats…and while I’m at it, I probably shouldn’t have my brakes checked. I’ll just trust that if there are enough classes out there telling OTHER people to drive safely, I won’t have to do anything to protect my family except drive safely myself. And anyone who tells me differently really just wants to see me & my family killed & is blaming me, victimizing me, & hurting me! Why won’t you leave me alone?!?!?!
@9:46 May 23 as Jill Guidry reposted from the ProChoiceGal blog:
“Rape survivors? Well, they apparently hate them, too!”
PC Gal – there is so much wrong with your blog entry, but I will focus on this one.
Pro lifers hate rape survivors/victims – really?
My mother survived a rape – I was born. I do not hate my mother. I do anguish over the trauma she experienced. I try my best to understand the emotions, the anger, such a trauma can cause, not just for her, but for any victim of rape, including you. I think my birth allowed some of that trauma to heal. Please do not do yourself what you accuse others of doing – “making stuff up”. Accusing a pro life person of “hating” a rape survivor is something you are making up. The occasional less than compassionate comment directed at you comes from a feeling of exasperation caused by your refusal to acknowledge the help and empathy that is offered freely and often. Is it possible that the anger caused by your trauma is clouding your ability to be reasonable? The answer is fairly obvious but I do not anticipate you will admit it or even recognize it right now. I do not know if you were pro abortion before the rape. I do not know if you dismissed the sanctity of life before the rape. If you previously explained those points before and I missed them, I apologize. It is clear that being raped has pushed your anti-life feelings to the extreme, which is sad. You comment and debate on this site and then claim you do not want to be triggered. When you comment here and you are the one introducing rape to the thread, what do you expect to happen? It sounds like you are in an almost perpetually triggered state. I hope that will change for you.
I offer you again these resources –
http://www.facinglife.tv/episode/season_3/episode_8/episode_308.html
this is a TV show with interviews of 3 women – a therapist, a rape victim who aborted, and a woman who was conceived in rape.
Here is a web site with illuminating and inspirational stories of 8 women pregnant by rape. 2 of the pregnancies were terminated.
http://rebeccakiessling.com/PregnantByRape.html
It is probably true, unfortunately, that some women couldn’t bring a pregnancy to term if they became pregnant through rape. That is tragic for the baby of course. I would like to hear some more of the stories of those who were pushed into abortion or who decided to abort without having the benefit of hearing of the potential healing brought about by the pregnancy and birth. In those cases, it is a tragedy for the women also.
I’m sorry, I just can’t let this go. PCG, you come in here and call us rape apologists, completely misrepresent our stance, refuse to have a shred of honesty and realize the limitations of your own rights-limiting arguements, and then write a horribly slanted and untrue post and refuse to allow comments.
Your parents must be so proud.
Posted by: Marauder at May 23, 2010 11:06 PM
Well said, Marauder! And Jill G., please quit calling her “Adolf” you’re only making us look bad and feeding into her negative perceptions of us.
Rachael-
Bless you. I suspected I was add and I knew I also had depression. Anyway I was tested for both and am add and have mild depression. I started on Wellbutrin on the 10th and feel so much better. I’m also able to focus better which is a good thing because I’m going to school. Thanks.
Posted by: myrtle miller at May 23, 2010 8:53 PM
Myrtle, I’m glad that you’ve received a diagnosis (and no doubt some answers to your concerns) and have found a treatment that works for you based on your diagnosis :) Just remember that it can take 2-4 weeks for the medication to reach theraputic levels in your blood, so don’t become discouraged if you still experience off days :) I’m here if you ever need someone to talk to ((hugs))
Rachael-agreed. I’ve already said all I’m going to regarding PCG anyway. Good luck with her.
I have read these post with dismay. You do know that this woman is baiting you guys as fodder for her own agenda and for her blog right? You do know the odds are she is lying about her “rape” and her claims are probably lies and she enjoys coming here to blast prolifers with her venom.
I have heard these quotes, the second one is from the Bible:
“a fool convinced against his will
is of the same opinion still”
and
“Do not cast your pearls of wisdom before swine”
these quotes seem quite appropriate here. Feel free to continue with this circular discussion if you wish but Jill and mods my suggestion is to quit this while you are ahead and stop wasting your time. Just IMHO. Carry on if you wish. God bless you prolifers.
I don’t think she’s lying about having been raped, Prolifer L. I think that explains her misplaced anger towards us.
Thanks, segamon and Rachael C. :)
PCG has issues with honesty and anger, no doubt. But I don’t believe she is lying about being raped. I believe the rape was very traumatic and she has never gotten the help she needs. I believe she was an easy target for the proaborts who want to recruit more women to become abortionists. She in turn has hurt others and will continue to do so until she deals with all of the pain inside herself. The lyrics to Martina McBride’s song Loves the Only House reminds me of PCG, especially the line “‘Cause the pain’s gotta go somewhere.” All of us here can take what she dishes out but guess who this pain will eventually get turned on? ):
Someone else said one time on here — Hurt people, hurt people. PCG is hurt people.
good comment Praxedes….
Posted by: jim sable at May 24, 2010 10:56 AM
Rachael-
Thanks. It’s two weeks now. To me it’s like a miracle drug it addresses my depression and add, I don’t feel sluggish I just feel like me, minus the sadness.
You may be right people that PCG is being truthful about being raped. And you are right Praxedes “hurt people hurt people”. So if I am wrong here I apologize but like I said everyone can do what they want but this woman is really off the charts with either her own agenda using this blog or off the chart needing serious mental help to say the horrific things she has said against prolifers on this blog. I do feel it is a waste of time and “casting your pearls before swine. Just IMHO. I do pray she gets the help she needs somewhere.
Red Doll shoes employs the false term “anti-choicers” to depict those who oppose abortion.
Red Doll Shoes goes on to claim that “anti-choicers” … “agree that preserving human life is more important than letting women make their own desisions [sic] about what happens to their bodies … ”
That statement is false on its face, hence the wrong premise upon which to draw a conclusion.
Asking someone “Do you still beat your wife,” when they don’t even have a wife, or when they never actually beat their wife, is absurd. Asking someone if they still eat babies for breakfast is absurd, especially when the person asked doesn’t eat babies at all, or the person never even eats breakfast.
Red Doll Shoes ignorantly begins from the false premise that “anti-choicers” don’t let women decide what to do with their own bodies, which is absurd. THe law already limits what men and women can do with their own bodies, limiting such activities as prostitution, drug ingestion, drug sales, drug distribution, murder, rape, laying down in traffic to block traffic, public nudity, suicide attempts, etc.
Induced abortion is the taking of the life of another human being. Furthermore the human being whose life is taken has committed no crime, has not had a fair trial, and has done no one any harm. They are targeted for induced abortion merely because they are hated, and because someone makes a living from executing new human beings and collects a fee for his or her homicidal, sadistic sevices.
Red Doll Shoes reveals a low level of education, a lack of understanding of Human Reproduction and the cycle of life, and delves into an outrageous scenario, stretching reality, in order to justify her own homicidal tendencies against new, tiny human beings who have done her no harm.
I suggest she seek anger management therapy, and learn to control the seething hatred she has for new human beings and the seething hatred she has toward those who oppose abortion.
She also needs a “Reality check,” for abortion opponents don’t tell women what they can and cannot do with their bodies. The women have already done what they want with their own bodies, and that is why they have become pregnant, causing the beginning of the life of a new human being. The abortion opponents are merely engaging in the same action as those who oppose rape, kidnapping, torture, and murder. They are acting in the interest of victims of violence, aggression, and homicidal tendencies.
“Pro-lifers,” or “abortion opponents” are not “anti-choice,” but anti-abortion.
On the other hand abortion choicers are anti choice, for they eradicate any choice that the father has in the situation, and any choice that the baby has, and will have, in his or her life, and any choice mothers might have before they are coereced into the butchering of their child. Irresponsible, selfish males get a “get out of jail free” card via the compliments of the abortionist. Abortion is great for men who like to use women for sexual pleasure and dump women and run at the first sign of a possible commitment and being held responsible for his actions. Abortion also gives cover for rapists, statutory rapist, and other criminals who take advantage of and use women as their playthings.
In the USA another Western societies and nations, rapists NEVER get the death penalty, yet so many people think that a baby should be killed if he or she were suspected of coming into being as the result of a rape. Where is the justice or fairness in that? The baby is not the aggresor, has caused no harm, and committed no crime, but gets the death penalty, while the criminal gets to live.
Absurd!
Regarding the kidney scenario, that would be a draconian society which engages in forcible removal of a kidney against the will of the people. The abortion industry and their supporters are that kind of society in which they force their choice upon others, such as by taking taxpayer money to pay for abortions and become wealthy, and to force women into abortuaries against their will, subjecting them to abuse of medical rape, and forcing abortion opponents to have to live with the existence of abortion agains their will..
Induced Abortion is a violent, aggressive act, as would forcibly removing someone’s kidney against their will.
A society which would do either – induced abortion, the killing of new human beings, or forcible kidney removal, is a draconian, barbaric society and a person who would construct or support such a scenario, such as Red Doll Shoes who supports abortion and tries to liken coereced kidney removal to opposition to abortion, is a barbaric, violent person.
Red Doll is 16 years old.
oh dear….:(
Red Doll clearly doesn’t comprehend the difference between killing someone and not saving someone.