New footage: pro-abort and gay militants protest in the gutter at Scheidler tribute
Monica Miller of Citizens for a Pro-Life Society has just posted footage from inside the pro-abort and gay protest of the pro-life tribute on April 2 to Joe Scheidler on April 2. The 1st 6 minutes are of their side and the last 3 of ours. You’ll see quite a difference. Warning: vulgarity, including the worst word of them all, the c-word…
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W-lZ8nfNls[/youtube]
The guy holding the “What if the fetus is gay?” sign is on the video speaking to Monica and is of the 180 degree mistaken notion that it is pro-lifers GLBTs should fear if a gay gene is ever discovered. Rather, it’s the other way around. Pro-lifers seek to protect all innocent human life, straight/gay, female/male, handicapped/not, sick/well, black/white. It is pro-aborts who battle laws trying to protect minority groups.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
New civility –> “Joseph Scheidler has got to go!” Something Mr. Maddow on MSNBC will not report.
What if the fetus is gay? He or she is another member of the human family — welcome!
How about reporting some good gay news? We’re Irelands newest pro-life group, taking the prolife message to the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered community.
Abortion here is still illegal, but if we want to keep it that way the prolife community has to wake up, and stop abortion from becoming a religiuos issue.
Most LGBT people I have spoken to are ignorant on the facts of abortion, most are HORRIFIED when they discover what it actually is, and most would quite happily lend their voice and their vote to the pro-life movement. But when pro-life groups also campaign against gay marriages, and gay adoption, heck, even gays having the right to join the army, then is it any wonder LGBT people feel isolated from the prolife battle?
Please support us in taking the truth about abortion to one of Irelands newest communities.
They are possessed.
Ed: Hi, I was just going to bring you guys up over here!
Speaking to the original post, I’ve never believed that the vast, vast majority of the pro-life movement would ever abort little GLBT kids. (I say vast, vast majority and not “anyone” because there’s nothing on this earth that some person wouldn’t do.)
However, I agree with Ed that it’s tough as heck to keep up with the mainstream pro-life movement when GLBT issues keep coming up within it. There’s too much life-related work to do without people letting, say, same-sex couples adopting kids become a tangent. Let’s just focus on keeping kids alive!
Ed & Marauder….Thank you for your posts. Claiming this fringe is representative of the whole GLBT movement is the same thing as claiming all Arabs are terrorists, or that the Westboro Baptist Church represents all Christians. It is simply unfair and inaccurate. PLAGAL (Pro Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians) does some awesome work; they are funny and smart. Cecilia Brown is really wonderful and doesn’t get nearly enough credit or recognition as she deserves.
We don’t like it when pro-aborts do it to us (see clinic bombings, Tiller shooting)….Let’s try not to do it with others. Spreading hate isn’t going to save babies. It’s just going to spread more hate.
What ‘C’ word or words would be vulgar to this ‘dead babies r us’ mob.
caring?
catholic?
chaste?
charity?
chosen?
CHRIST?
commitment?
compassion?
conception?
conservative?
cross?
PLAGAL are who inspired me to set up the Irish LGBT group. I’ve sent them an email, but heard nothing back, should send again as I might have got the wrong address.
Anyway, please visit us at http://www.lgbtlifealliance.webs.com and help us keep abortion out of ireland:-)
Also, as it happens I (although not our group) am quite religious / spiritual, and we’ll be heading to our first gay pride event (as a pro life group, obviously, not our first pride event ever) in Cork at the end of May – so a few prayers wouldn’t go amiss as it happens:-)
Oh and Hey Maurder – we’ve changed the name and the website – let me know what u think :-) x
I’ve never believed that the vast, vast majority of the pro-life movement would ever abort little GLBT kids.
If they would Marauder, they are prolife in name only.
Ed says: April 11, 2011 at 11:08 am
“How about reporting some good gay news? We’re Irelands newest pro-life group, taking the prolife message to the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered community.”
==============================================================
Ed,
When the pro-life LBGT folks plan their annual convention in Ireland, how do they deternine at which phone booth to hold the meeting?
Is that supposed to be a joke on how small we are as a group?
When the pro-life LBGT folks plan their annual convention in Ireland, how do they deternine at which phone booth to hold the meeting?
There’s no need to be mean, your broken. Ed, welcome to this board, and good luck with your group.
I have a lousy computer, so I can’t watch the video, but one thing I’ve noticed is that at many prolife events, including the March For Life, there are often differently-abled people present — people in wheelchairs, Down Sydrome folks, etc. I haven’t seen this at PC events. I wonder why?
It would be great if there was no need to have a LGBT prolife group, but as long as the main prolife groups in Ireland continue to support an anti-gay agenda then the only way to take the truth of abortion to the LGBT community is to start a group – no matter how small it is in the beginging.
Despite what many may think, the churches in ireland are empty. The church has lost its influence on the Irish people, yet 67% of Irish adults want to maintain the constitutional ban on abortion. The prolife ethos of the Irish people is based on the biological facts of the humanity of the unborn child, and has nothing to do with the churches teachings.
In Ireland, divorce is on the increase, blended families are on the increase, gay bars are opening in towns up and down the country, yet year on year the number of Irish women travelling to England for an abortion declines. The Irish people have unshackled themselves from the influence of Rome, yet only 1 of the countries 5 main political parties oppose the constitutional ban on abortion.
The LGBT community in Ireland is growing, and it’s a community with a lot of influence. The mainstream prolife groups are isolating them. I’ve got better things to do then run a pro-life group, and believe me, I’d much rather be partying at a Gay Pride event than giving out abortion literature, but someone has to reach out and tell the LGBT community that abortion is about human rights, and you CAN be gay and prolife. You CAN support gay marriage and be prolife, and you don’t have to be taking communion every week to be prolife.
That was a rant, anyway, please help us keep abortion out of Ireland.
I have 1 word for the people in first 6 minutes: SHEEP! They don’t think for themselves, they don’t check their information, they just let themselves be duped and then repeat PP propaganda like parrots without giving it a second thought. How sad.
What a difference life makes indeed :))) PC side all grumpy, angry, swearing, PL side smiling, praying and spreading joy…
“Contraception saves lives” must be my new favourite from PC!!!! Hahahaha!!! No need tp comment even…
Phillymiss, thats a good point about disabled people. I suppose the main reason is that pro-aborts dont support their right to even exist.
A friend of mine supports abortion for any reason EXCEPT on the grounds of disability. It’s a skewed kind of logic, but her point is that as soon as we start screening and aborting on the grounds of disability then we are creating a master-race.
There is no doubt that if (and when) they discover the gay gene the LGBT community would HAVE to stand shoulder to shoulder with disabled people who are fighting for their right to be born.
Welcome Ed! I am sure we disagree on a the issue of gay marriage, but you are so right to point out that a pro-life view is not a religious one. Every human being can recognize the destruction inherent in abortion. We need everyone to stand up against this it if we ever want it to end.
Phillymiss – exactly. Though many of us have disagreements about the morality of behavior, every person – every single one – is a human being with inherent worth. I know most prolifers, religious or otherwise, would be the first to stand against violence being directed toward gay people – born or unborn.
Well gay marriage has just been legalized here thankfully. But the battle to keep Europe’s hands off our abortion laws wages on!
Gay marriage was legalized in Ireland? When did this happen?
Last week Phillymiss ;-) Civil Partnerships anyway, but it amounts to the same thing dosen’t it?
It would be great if there was no need to have a LGBT prolife group, but as long as the main prolife groups in Ireland continue to support an anti-gay agenda then the only way to take the truth of abortion to the LGBT community is to start a group – no matter how small it is in the beginging.
Hi Ed, Welcome. Are you stating that LGBT individuals are not welcomed (or God forbid banned) from Ireland prolife groups or are you stating that some LGBT individuals refuse to join prolife groups that may have members who disagree with LGBT behaviors?
I realize this division exists but it should be set aside so that all prolifers can work together to save the lives of preborn humans.
Hi Praxedes. The Prolife groups here (speciffically Youth Defence and Precious Life) are made up of really REALLY lovely individuals, and I’ve been a follower of their work for a long time.
Whilst they do AMAZING work, and have been far more effective than I could EVER be at keeping abortion at the forefront of peoples minds, they do allign themselves with the church.
I cant remember the specific cases but, often, along with their abortion news they will report that some bishop has denounced gay marriages, they have reported that ‘The Family’ is under attack because of the advancement in LGBT rights etc.
It’s nothing to do with the individuals per se, I have no problem with someone having an opinion on gay marriage, but I (and the other few members we have) cant in good conscience give our time or money to a group that opposes our right to marry, our right to adopt etc.
Of course, LGBT people arent banned at all, but how can LGBT help, or support organisations who actively try to oppose our own equal rights.
Again, this has NOTHING to do with individual members, Ive had contact with them and they’re lovely, and Youth Defence in particular will say they have no policy on LGBT issues, but why then do they report the advancements of gay rights as ‘attacks on the family’?
If you follow SPUC on twitter, an English pro-life group you’ll see the same thing one of their tweets today was “Gay couple go to European Court for right to adopt” Whatever your opinion on gay adoption WHY should The Society for the Protection of Unborn Children” (SPUC) be reporting that?
Of course, they’re free to do so, but it isolates LGBT people.
Does that make sense?
like dr miller said; pray for them. it works.
It does, Ed. Thanks so much for answering my question. It’s great to see prolife numbers increasing around the world!
Ed: New name is wonderful. :D :D :D
Praxedes: Yeah, they’d be in name only.
yor bro ken, I had no idea you had such well-informed knowledge of the number of pro-life LGBT people in Ireland! You really must enlighten us as to your extensive research methods.
Moving away from the sarcasm, what does the pro-life movement gain by you being rude to people starting a pro-life group?
Marauder, your comment: You really must enlighten us as to your extensive research methods made me LOL remembering a Simpson’s episode where a character declares, “Last time I checked, pirates weren’t gay,” to which Homer scrunched up his brow & asked, “How’d you check?” :P
“The prolife ethos of the Irish people is based on the biological facts of the humanity of the unborn child, and has nothing to do with the churches teachings.”
Ed, The pro-life ethos of the Irish people has everything to do with the teachings of the Church. Understanding that the unborn child is human is but one grace of our ethos. The Holy Spirit is the giver of ‘ethos’ and the fountain of which the Roman Catholic Church teaches.
“Well gay marriage has just been legalized here thankfully.”
Ed, Marriage is the union of a man and a woman and God so there can never be such a thing as homosexual marriage. And you repeatedly deride the ‘church’ with derogatory comments whilst also speaking of your religious devotion. Tell me who do you worship?
“and you don’t have to be taking communion every week to be prolife.”
That doesn’t mean it’s not a good idea though Ed:
Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.”
Luke 22:19
Ed, I get the impression you would like to join the Church but you feel uncomfortable around people who teach homosexuality is a sin. So you show animosity towards the Church in protest. Would that be accurate?
Hi Truthseeker,
A lot to answer there. I dont think Im being derogatory to the Church at all. I’m 32, and like all Irish people my age, I was brought up going to weekly mass. I was educated in a state school (about 90% of state schools are Catholic today, go back to the 80s/90s and I’m sure the figure was higher). I certainly feel no resentment towards the church. I have 6 brothers and sisters, a mother who goes to mass daily, I’ve seen first hand the wonderful work priests, nuns and individuals of the church do. I think the Catholic church is a wonderful organisation, with a lot to offer its followers, and the wider community. I just dont believe in its teachings.
I was saying that the churches in Ireland are empty because that is the fact. Good or bad, thats the truth. I spend a lot of time in the UK, and everytime one of my British friends discovers my views about abortion, they put it down to my Catholic upbringing. My point was that, as a gay man, in a relationship I am clearly not suffering from any form of Catholic brainwashing, or whatever else my British friends may think. My objection to abortion is based on biology, not on the Churchs teachings – and that if opinion pools are right (saying 67% of Irish adults want to maintain the constituniol ban on abortion, then you only have to look at Church attendance to see that this has nothing to do with Church teachings.
I don’t feel like I have to ‘join’ the Church at all. Catholicisism is part of my culture. I still go to Mass occasionaly. My sister runs a Church youth group that I attend when I can, and I, like most people in Ireland my age, know personally some wonderful priests and nuns.
My point is that the prolife groups here activly campaign against MY rights as a gay man. I have no problem working, praying, or partying alongside people who feel homosexuality is a sin. What I cant do is give my time or money to a group who campaigns against my right to enjoy the same tax benefits as straight people (why should I pay more tax because I’m gay and not allowed to marry my partner) or my right to adopt children (I believe the decision to leave a child to be brought up in care rather than allow a gay person / couple to adopt them is shocking).
Like I said, the prolife groups and the Church in Ireland is made up of predominetly good people, who dont share my views on gay rights. That dosent make them (or me) any less good. But I can’t in good faith give any of my resources to a group who’s primary aim is to keep abortion out of Ireland (something which most Irish people, including LGBT people want) but who’s secondary aim is to keep me, and people like me on the fringes of society.
Hope that (rather long) post answers your questions. You can telll Im Irish cant you? Never use 6 words when 24 will do :-)
And I dont want to nit-pick, but just to clarify. The Catholic Church does not believe homosexuality is a sin. On the contaRY, The Catholic Church recognised in the mid 70s that homosexuality was not a choice and there is nothing sinful in being gay.
Long before the gay rights movement took hold in mainstream society the Vatican issued a statement in 1976 recognising that:
“Some persons find themselves through no fault of their own to have a homosexual orientation. Homosexuals, like everyone else, should not suffer from prejudice against their basic human rights. They have a right to respect, friendship, and justice. They should have an active role in the Christian community.…”
It’s a small point but an important one, whist the Church sees sexual activity between homosexuals to be against the teachings of Christ, the Church has, for almost the past 40 years recognised that being homosexual is no more a sin than being born with blue eyes.
truthseeker, marriage has had a religious definition and a legal definition in most countries for a long, long time. The point of the pro-life movement isn’t to get into religious debates. It’s to protect the lives of unborn children.
Hey Ed. Glad you’re here. Just to clarify, when you say that the Church recognizes that “being homosexual” (or being gay) is not a sin, do you mean by “being homosexual” simply being attracted to someone of the same sex? In other words, you’re making the distinction (the correct distinction, I believe) between sexual ACTIONS between two persons of the same sex (which the Catholic Church would consider sinful) and an ATTRACTION that a person has for someone of the same sex (which the Church would not consider a sin).
I should also point out that when you say “the Church sees sexual activity between homosexuals to be against the teachings of Christ”, this would not be limited to just actions between two homosexuals, but sexual actions between straight people as well. In other words, it would be just as bad for a heterosexual person to engage in gay sex just for fun as it is for a homosexual person to. It isn’t so much about “being gay” as it is about performing certain actions. Is that basically what you’re saying? (again, according to the Catholic Church, not necessarily you) God love you.
Ed says: April 11, 2011 at 1:10 pm
“Is that supposed to be a joke on how small we are as a group?”
==============================================================
Ed,
It is an observation how little influence you have as a group on the community you have described and on the population as a whole.
I see no profit in altering my standards to gain your endorsement or assistance.
But I applaud your efforts to protect the human rights of the pre-natal child.
Please elaborate for me what you mean when you use the word ‘partying’.
Homosexuality aside, most ‘christians’ that I know don’t ‘party’ in the way I understand and experienced that word.
To me it meant and means ‘drugs, sex and rock n roll’.
Perhaps it has a different meaning in Ireland.
That kind of behavior is not encouraged by the ONE who gives me life and breath.
In fact HE discourages it.
HE discourages me from associating with people who indulge in that ‘lifestyle’ and particuarly warns me from breaking bread with folks who call themselves ‘christian’ and ‘party’.
God is not a party pooper. HE likes a good celebration. But HE has drawn some lines that we should not cross in our celebrating.
Exactly Bobby. I was just clarifying what truth seeker said:
“Ed, I get the impression you would like to join the Church but you feel uncomfortable around people who teach homosexuality is a sin. So you show animosity towards the Church in protest.”
your Broken – We’ve been established for 10 days, I dont know what sort of influence you expect us to have in that time. Like I said, the Cork Gay Pride festival runs from May 29th until June 26th and there will be 5 of us there spreading the prolife message to our peers – a group who have little or no oppertunity to hear about the humanity of the unborn child, or the threat we’re facing to our pro-life laws.
Surely aside from that how I party, or who I party with is immaterial?
I’m not looking for your endorsement, This all started by me suggesting that Jill reports some GOOD news from the gay community.
Whether you like it or not we HAVE common ground. Despite all our differences we BOTH believe that human rights should be protected from birth. Isnt that what we should be focusing on?
If Im willing to put aside the fact that you believe my relationship should not be recognised as a partnership in law. If I can put aside the fact that you find your preception of my lifestyle so abhorrant that I shouldn’t be allowed to raise children who have been abandoned by their birth families.
If I can put that aside, surely you can put aside the fact that I enjoy a drink. That, like being Catholic is part of my culture :-)
Forced Childbearing = Catastrophe . Enough said .
Oh my God, Mr. Berger, hello. Thank you for not adding anything to the discussion.
Forced childbirth indeed. *EYE ROLL*
Like we’re pinning women down, impregnating them, and then making them give birth. This isn’t the Handmaid’s Tale. Get over yourself.
Ed, I am pro-life through and through. I am also pro-gay rights and I’ve made that known here time and time again. Gay rights is NOT related to the pro-life movement as a whole, only the religious pro-life movement. I love my religious pro-life brothers and sisters, but I don’t agree that homosexuality is a sin (not in theory, and not in practice), and I love my gay family members and friends so much, I want them to have everything I am able to have (health insurance, legal recognition of their relationships, etc.)…..I don’t even think the gay community cares that the church would not marry them; but there is also a legal question here. It’s sort of the reverse of abortion….Abortion IS legal, but completely evil. Gay marriage is neutral (to those of us who don’t care if anyone is gay), but ILLEGAL, even though it kills NOBODY. What can you do. I am on your side. I will fight for the rights of the unborn until I die, and I will fight for the rights of the gay community until the same end.
Forced Child raising = Catastrophe
Forced Parenting = Catastrophe
Forced Responsibility = Catastrophe
Forced Taxing= Catastrophe
Forced Census= Catastrophe
Forced Jury duty= Catastrophe
Come on, as Mama Odie from the Princess and the Frog says, dig a little deeper.
Hi Mary Lee. You should move here (to Ireland). Abortion is illegal, and gay marriage is legal. Sounds like it might be more your sort of place :-)
I dont know any gay people who are fighting for the Church to recognise their marriage. Aside from the equality issue, we have to remember that, without gay marriage LGBT couples in long term relationships are exempt from the tax breaks straight couples get. Personally, I think it’s shocking. When the debate on gay marriage was going on here there was this great quote from a gay hurling player saying: “We want to make gay marriages legal – not complusory. N0-one will be forced into gay marriage. If you don’t believe in same sex marriages then dont get married to someone of the same sex. Simples”
I’m para-phrasing but I thought it was brilliant!
Ed,
Precisely what part of the Church’s teaching is it you do not believe?
Do you believe in God the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth?
Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only son and our Lord who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under pontius Pilate; was cricified died and was buried and on the third day he rose again?
Do you believe in the Holy Spirit?
Do you believe in the Communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins’ and life everlasting?
Do you believe that the Bible is word of God?
“Abortion is illegal, and gay marriage is legal.”
Ed, there is no such thing as homosexual marriage. I have no problem with your having civil unions. God created us man and woman. This joining together of male and female is what makes the union a marriage. It is a unique union. Homosexuals cannot participate in this union together not because of any law but because they are the same sex. Why do you keep referring to homosexual marriage as it it can exist? Do you fail to understand this concept or do you just not respect the sanctity of marriage?
Truthseeker – OK, Civil Partnerships are legal. I’m not sure I understand the difference between civil partnerships and marriage. As far as I can tell it’s the same thing, different label.
To answer your questions
!-Yes
2- Not Sure
3 – Yes
4-Not Sure
5 – No
I’m not going to argue the definition of marriage, although i’m sure that’s not it. I’m just thankful to live in a country that recognises my right to a ‘Civil Partnership’ – which, lets face it amounts to the same thing as marriage – is weeks away from allowing gay couples to adopt and continues to recognise the human rights of the unborn.
Regardless of one’s religious beliefs, there IS such a thing as gay marriage–a commitment between two gay people. There is no recognition of gay marriage in the church; but legally, we recognize “common law” spouses, and I don’t understand why we shouldn’t legally–LEGALLY, not religiously–recognize married gay couples. I know several gay couples who are married, and have beautiful relationships, built on love, respect, and good humor. As far as the legal question goes, I don’t understand why the gay community shouldn’t be given SECULAR LEGAL rights.
There IS such a thing as abortion, and it results in dead babies and puts money in the pockets of those who execute their killing. Gay marriage does not end anyone’s life. It does not make abortionists wealthier. It does not result in dead babies in an incinerator. You don’t have to support it, but at least recognize that–legally–it has NOTHING to do with abortion. The pro-life gay community should be recognized and welcomed, not shamed and lectured to.
Typo corrected below:
Ed, Why do you keep referring to homosexual marriage as if it can exist? Do you fail to understand this concept or do you just not respect the sanctity of marriage?
I understannd that a civil partnership cannot be sanctioned by the church. But aside from that I dont understand the difference between civil partnerships and marriages. A hetrosexual marriage that takes place in a registary office (or the town hall I think Americans would call it) seems to me to be exactly the same as a civil partnership. So yes, I fail to understand the concept compleyley.
I understand that a religious person would need to have their union blessed in a Church and that option isn’t open to me. Aside from that I suppose I do fail to see a difference
MaryLee. God created them Adam and Eve; not Adam and Steve. It is the union of man and women together that God speaks of when he says:
”Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined (cleave) to his wife, and they shall become one flesh” (Genesis 2:24).
That is the unique relationship recognized by God. It has existed for all time and has been defined as marriage. Would you deny it exists as a unique relationship given to us by God and sanctified by his Word?
Ed, even with faith aside. You must recognize that men and women are different or else you wouldn’t have your stated preference of partnership with other men. Since you recognize we are different then why can’t you see that same sex couples cannot be enjoined in a relationship the same way that heterosexual couples can? I think you are defensive of your same sex attraction to the point that it is keeping you from admitting there is anything unique about heterosexual relationships.
Okay, I just checked with a friend of mine. Here in Ireland you go through a civil partnership ceremony and then you are – as far as the law is concerned – married.
So if I were to marry my boyfriend tomorrow a) He’d emigrate lol but b) every legal form I have to fill in where it asks for my relationship status I’d have to put married. There is no option for ‘Civil Partnered’ I’d be married.
SO whether you like it or not, and whether God likes it or not, gay marriage exists. Here in Ireland it exists.
Thats not the case in America as I understand it, but America isnt the world. There are men her in Ireland who are married to other men. That’s just a fact I’m afraid.
Like I said above. Same sex couples are enjoined in the same way as Hetrosexual couples here.
Ed,
If the people of Ireland decided to recognize that dogs, due to their longstanding relationships with men, can be “married” to their masters. Would that mean that people could get “married” to their dogs too?
Your failure to submit to God’s will is where you are going astray. I have to leave for work now but God bless you all and may he protect all of us from the infernal enemy.
Forced Child raising = Catastrophe
Forced Parenting = Catastrophe
Forced Responsibility = Catastrophe
Forced Taxing= Catastrophe
Forced Census= Catastrophe
Forced Jury duty= Catastrophe
I’d say there’s something a little more…intimate…about being pregnant, Bobby. Way to trivialize.
Ugh, what a disgusting argument, truthseeker. Who the heck are you? I hope your wife isn’t completely miserable.
OK, from that statement I can see you’re not serious about discussing this. You’re trying to catch me out, and turn this into a word game. You’re coming from a very negative, closed place and if you had no interest in my position on the subject you shouldn’t have discussed it with me.
I understand your position, I respect your position but I 100% wholeheartedly disagree with your position.
Like I said before, we have common ground, it’s best to focus on that yes?
Truthseeker, a man marrying another man is not at all the same as a man marrying a dog. Just because your religion tells you that homosexuality is a sin, and since you believe it’s “icky” doesn’t mean that in the secular world, these are just people like you, living and working and doing what they can to be good people, and have legally-recognized commitments. All your arguments are religious. This is NOT a religious argument. Just like abortion isn’t a religious argument. The killing of unborn babies is far more troublesome and horrific than the idea of gay marriage. Can we please, PLEASE, PLEASE stop with the bigotry? It is not helping anyone. You don’t have to support gay marriage or gay rights. But legally, for the good of the world, gay rights will not hurt this world at all. It never has. What does hurt the world is hatred, and narrow-mindedness, and anger. The killing of unborn babies is horrific. Gay marriage is not horrific. Nobody dies. Nobody is killed. You don’t have to approve, but at least back off a little bit. It’s not the same thing, it never will be.
The more you try to support your argument with scripture, the less I am convinced. I am on the fence spiritually–a sort of Episcopal agnostic, if you will–and I simply cannot understand how one can equate homosexuality with abortion. I studied theology for four years. I have great, great respect for true Christianity. As Nietzsche said, “I love your Christ; I do not like your Christians.” The Hebrew scriptures tell us not to eat pork. I know lots of good people who eat pork. I know a few JEWISH people who eat pork. The Hebrew scriptures tells us how to sell our daughters as slaves….Should we still do that? We need to realize what was cultural and psychological; there are things we simply did not understand. Now we understand them. We know what cancer is, we know what autism is, we know what depression is. We don’t think we will go to hell if we eat pork. And we recognize that gay people are just people. There is NO WAY that their lives are more sinful than the rest of us.
And I don’t know any gay person who thinks it would be okay to marry a dog or a duck or a bear. That’s ridiculous. It’s ridiculous and far-fetched and it only pleases the pro-abortion movement.
No, I’m trivializing the already trivial argument of Berger. If there is more substance to the argument “Forced Childbearing = Catastrophe . Enough said .” then I am happy to hear it, but the point is that you can simply blow off any position which might make you do something you don’t want to do by claiming “thing I don’t like= catastrophe.” What were we supposed to get out of “Forced Childbearing = Catastrophe . Enough said” that should cause us to rethink our position?
“I’d say there’s something a little more…intimate…about being pregnant,”
So is the idea that there is a scale of intimacy and the more intimate something is, then the more moral it is? How is intimacy morally relevant?
MaryLee,
You are correct that if you take God (the religious part) out of marriage then it has no firm definition left. It can be be whatever anybody wishes to define it as. Take God out of the definition of life and the pro-aborts can define it as beginning at birth too. See how that works. I prefer to recognize God’s presence in my marriage. You may not. I prefer to recognize God’s presence in life, you may not. So create your own word for your special homosexual realtionships and quit trying to change our definition of marriage as a man and a woman as given to us by God. I choose order over chaos. I choose God over man.
That is not to say that the argument could not be made about the uniqueness of the man/woman relationship without using God. Cause it could easily be done.
The pro-life gay community should be recognized and welcomed, not shamed and lectured to.
The pro-life gay community has been recognized and welcomed, not shamed and lectured to. Read over the posts. Ed has explained why he has chosen not to be a member of pro-life groups that have members who disagree with him, not the other way around.
All the pro-life groups that I am aware of would welcome Ed with open arms. The question could be posed as to whether someone who believes (outspokenly so) that homosexual behavior is a sin would be welcomed in Ed’s group. Ed?
oops. I think I just killed my post. oh well…. got to go to a meeting.
Truthseeker, the killing of a baby is not remotely related to two same sex adults making a commitment. There is a secular pro-life movement…..please stop trying to convert us. It does nothing to save babies, and only serves to alienate your allies.
Truthseeker, I’m happy to say that, from what I’ve read( had to rush a bit), it looks like we agree about marriage.
This was not introduced by the state, but was merely recognized by the state as a crucial component in any healthy society. Marriage was instituted by God and given to us as a great gift.
I believe it was Scott Hahn who pointed out that, frankly, “if God isn’t first in all parts of your life, He isn’t first in any of them” (the exact wording may be a little different, but the points remains). As I recall, he was referring specifically to contraception, but the same holds true for everything else; either we accept and follow the Truth and His ways, or we follow our own ways. Following Him in most areas is, in reality, only following Him when we like to, not because we should. Ultimately, there is no middle ground on this.
For the rest of those reading, you may be wondering why I’m writing all this, and understandably so. My purpose is to attempt to explain why separating my pro-life views and my religious views is simply not going to happen. We all agree that abortion is a barbaric, evil practice, but we often disagree on the best method of combating it.
For me and all true Catholics, it’s simple; abortion is a symptom of a far greater problem. To paraphrase, it’s a disregard for human life, sexuality, our inherent dignity, a desire for actions without consequences; essentially, a demand to separate the truth from everything and assign it our own version based on our limited vision and understanding.
The only person I’ll accuse of consciously doing this is myself; by no means do I have the insight to back up any claim I could make against anyone else. Sadly, this does nothing to lessen its effects.
For this reason, while I treat those afflicted with homosexuality with the same respect that I have for everyone else, I cannot condone every aspect of their lives and I will not water down my beliefs on the subject.
I treat abortionists with the same respect I have for everyone else, but my only available words pertaining to their professions are condemnation.
Likewise, those who believe they are pro-choice are entitled to the same dignity as everyone else, but their delusions will find no ally in me.
If this costs me allies, so be it; I’m not here to make friends, I’m here to help in the salvation of lives and souls.
If this costs me allies, so be it
If this costs me allies, they weren’t really allies in the pro-life movement in the first place.
Praxedes, why would someone who thinks two people of the same gender having sex is a sin want to join Ed’s group? Co-ordinate anti-abortion efforts, maybe, but…
The pro-life movement is about saving the lives of unborn children. If somebody believes abortion kills a human being and shouldn’t be legal, they get to be in the pro-life movement. This isn’t a religious movement that got invaded and made into something different. This is a human rights movement with a lot of religious people in it. The American anti-slavery movement was the same way; lots of people joined it partially or wholly because of their religious convictions, but regardless of what anybody thought about God, Jesus or sin, enslaving people was still wrong.
We have life-or-death issues to deal with and people are spending valuable time having arguments about GLBT stuff that accomplish nothing and convince no one. I wish I had no idea what anybody on this site thought about GLBT stuff, because I wish we were all so busy working to save kids’ lives that we didn’t have time to get into it. However, seeing as there’s been this effort with a lot of people to sidetrack the movement by getting to unrelated issues, it makes perfect sense that Ed would want to start a GLBT pro-life group for the purpose of defending the fact that being GLBT doesn’t mean you can’t be pro-life. We keep getting characterized as hedonistic monsters at worst and poor lost souls at best. If GLBT pro-choicers do something obnoxious, it gets cast as being something that must just come along with the GLBT territory. Stop characterizing us as anything on this site. Get back to SAVING KIDS.
“Praxedes, why would someone who thinks two people of the same gender having sex is a sin want to join Ed’s group? Co-ordinate anti-abortion efforts, maybe, but…”
Or cause we care.
“We have life-or-death issues to deal with and people are spending valuable time having arguments about GLBT stuff that accomplish nothing and convince no one.”
Marauder. Truthful and with courage. Be not afraid. With the Lord to lead us. It is a beautiful thing that Ed and me have it in common that we consider ourselves to be religious. I understand that could mean different things to different people. Ed didn’t really open up when I asked him more questions about his faith and tried to find out the reasons he is so against the church. I think talks like this bring us closer together. I consider your openness and honesty to be a virtue also. And, oh yeah, let’s join together in ‘communion’ and promote the sanctity of life :<}
Marauder, I respond to comments such as “The pro-life gay community should be recognized and welcomed, not shamed and lectured to.”
Untrue comments such as these divide pro-lifers — not what I do or don’t believe about homosexual behaviors. Everyone is recognized and welcomed in the pro-life movement and to say otherwise is not true.
Unfortunately, some people will only feel recognized and welcomed (and will continue to feel shamed and lectured to) if the rest of us agree with them 100% regarding homosexual behavior. The fact that some pro-aborts use signs that say things like “What if the fetus is gay?” makes it out that many pro–lifers are homophobic. This is absolutely not true either and this stereotype needs to stop.
The pro-life movement is about saving the lives of unborn children.
Exactly, then why the need to have a group that excludes anyone? Pro-life groups do not exclude homosexuals or anyone else. Some homosexuals choose to remain at a distance because some pro-lifers do not agree with their sexual behaviors. That is definitely their choice but this does not mean they are not welcomed and that pro-lifers are homophobic.
I believe sex outside of marriage and infidelity is sinful behavior as well but I don’t hear the sexually-active unmarrieds and cheaters crying that they are not welcomed in the pro-life movement because some people don’t condone their behaviors. I’m also not leaving to start a group of pro-lifers that believe just like me.
Stop characterizing me as anything on this site, get over my beliefs about morality and get back to SAVING KIDS.
“This was not introduced by the state, but was merely recognized by the state as a crucial component in any healthy society. ”
Well said Maestro, and the peace of Jesus Christ be with you.
But legally, for the good of the world, gay rights will not hurt this world at all. It never has.
MaryLee, When society fails to recognize male and female for it’s beautifully complimentary nature then I DO see it as being harmful to society. Offspring are one glorious example of the good that society receives from heterosexual unions. Sexually activity between same sex partners on the other hand is sterile and has much greater risk of health problems for the couple and for society at large. Anal sex is not healthy. AIDs is rampant among sexually active homosexual males. etc. etc..
Ok, I couldnt post yesterday, so this is a test
Great, I can post:-)
Sorry, for some reason my posts weren’t going up yesterday. Homophobic message board :-)
OK, I dont have time to go into who said what, but I’ll answer the questions as I see them. I have never, ever said the reason I cant join other prolife groups is because some of its members believe homosexuality is a sin. I have NO problems with other peoples opinions. But I can’t give my time or money to a group who campaigns AGAINST my rights as a gay man. The whole of Youth Defence could believe I am going to burn in hell for being gay, it wouldn’t bother me, I’d still be a member if they didn’t campaign AGAINST gay rights alongside Prolife issues.
Truthseeker – You keep saying I am against the church, I feel like I am repeating myself time and time again, and I dont know how else to say I am NOT against the Church. Read my previous comments – I think the Catholic Church is a wonderful organisation. I’ve seen it help my mother tremendously. I’ve seen my disabled sister be benefit massivly from groups organisied and run by the church. I personally know some wonderful priests and nuns. I am not against the Church. Just because I am not a member of the church does not mean I am against it.
Anyone is welcome to join my group, we NEED help. We NEED ideas, we NEED resources. ANYONE would be a great addition. All we ask is that members agree that we are working towards spreading the prolife message to the LGBT community, and, as such, as a group we support the full and equal rights of LGBT people. If you don’t believe in our full and equal rights, then why would you join? For the same reson what would be the purpose of me joing Catholics for Choice? I don’t believe in their ethos, so what’s the advantage of me joining?
Now, before I go I’d like to say this.
I formed this group about 2 weeks ago. Originally I called it GPLA (Gay Pro Life Alliance), within a few hours of being on twitter I had a message from a Transexual woma who said she was thrilled to see a prolife gay group in Ireland (she’s from Dublin). After a few messages she suggested that the name made it look like it was an EXCLUSIVELY gay group, and that she felt she wouldn’t be included.
My reaction was to dismiss her fears and feelings. I listened. I didn’t try to prove her wrong. I told her we would love to have her in our group, and asked what I could do to make her feel more included.
The fact that every gay person on this board is saying they feel excluded by the majority of the Pro Life groups is NOT an attack. Instead of looking at how LGBT feel, you all seem to be out to prove us wrong. This ALL started by me suggesting to Jill that she report some GOOD gay news.
Some news about a group of LGBT people in Ireland who are giving up their time and money to protect unborn children. Somehow we’ve got into gay marriage, but the bottom line is I, and every prolife LGBT person I speak to feels isolated by the religious element in most pro-life groups. If it’s not intended, If you don’t mean to make us feel isolated then instead of arguing, why don’t you look at yourself and see whether there’s anything you could be doing different to make us feel less isolated.
I have to go now, this has taken too much time. Rightly or wrongly I feel completley attacked. I have spent most of the last 2 days defending my prolife stance to LGBT people, and defending my gay status to prolife people and it’s simply not right.
The unborn children of Ireland are under a vicious and determind attack from the European Union and the International arm of America’s very own Planned Parenthood.
They have more money than us, they have more resources than us, they have more power than us. It’s a very very serious situation and I know I speak on behalf of every prolife group in the country when I say we need your help to keep abortion out of Ireland.
For those of you who would like to keep up to date with what we’re doing you can find us on http://www.lgbtlifealliance.webs.com or http://www.twitter.com/ProLifeLGBT
If any of you can help in anyway, be it with time, resources or ideas we would be thrilled – you can email me edmchatton@hotmail.com I promise not to force any of you to marry a horse:-)
As I said, we’ll be taking the prolife message to Cork Gay Pride in May & June, so please do send your good vibes / luck / prayers / spells…whatever floats your boat.
Great chatting to you all,
Ed
Pro-life groups do not exclude homosexuals or anyone else. Some homosexuals choose to remain at a distance because some pro-lifers do not agree with their sexual behaviors. That is definitely their choice but this does not mean they are not welcomed and that pro-lifers are homophobic.
Praxedes, if this site had a liberal bent and constantly had articles unrelated to abortion which assumed that you, the reader, endorsed these non-abortion political opinion merely by virtue of being pro-life – I don’t think you would leave the movement over it, but it would not be entirely outside the realm of reason for you to go create your own “abortion and NO TANGENTIALLY RELATED LIBERAL SOCIAL POLITICS” news site. Now imagine that you were a member of a pro-life group that donated money to liberal social causes like supporting the fight for gay marriage – would you just stand there and figure, “Well, this is someone else’s party and I’m just a guest, so I suppose I’ll keep my head down and not let this get in the way, because technically I AM welcome here, and no one’s kicking me out”? Or would you, maybe, create a group for supporting pro-life causes without supporting liberal social causes at the same time?
Creating your own forum for discussion and education would be a way for you to stay in the movement. It’s not just about simple petty hurt feelings over “not agreeing” – it’s about supporting, financially and ideologically, things that you don’t actually support, just to be pro-life. I think that Ed has made it pretty clear that he doesn’t really care if people disagree with his orientation or actions. It’s dismissive to continue to claim that that’s what this is about.
Listen to Alexandra, guys. She articulated really well what we’re trying to say.
I’ve never brought up GLBT issues on this site just out of the blue – I’ve responded to other people bringing them up when I’ve felt those other people were making untrue generalizations or misrepresenting facts. When I first found this site a number of years ago, it didn’t even occur to me that anyone would ever bring up GLBT issues here because that wasn’t the purpose of the site.
When this site gets into pro-life conversations, I feel like we have a great exchange of ideas and a great chance to help each other refine our techniques of articulating why we oppose abortion. I’ve had several times when I’ve seriously considered leaving this site because I have enough conflict to deal with in my life without having to defend myself on a personal level when it comes to something totally unrelated to abortion on a pro-life site. I keep staying, so far, because I do really like this site when we stay on-topic and because I would never want a GLBT person considering getting active in the pro-life movement to come to this site – one of the biggest pro-life sites on the Internet – and feel as though the entire pro-life movement is full of people who are going call them sinners, make untrue generalizations about GLBT people, and make their sexuality into an issue bigger than should be on a site that has nothing to do with it.
Ed,
You say you believe in God but you are not sure you believe in the virgin birth of Jesus and you do not believe the Bible is the Word of God. Tell me then, who is this God you worship and where does he come from?
Marauder, would it be correct to say that submission to God is at least a part of why you are not active sexually with homosexual partners?
Ed,
If you don’t want to discuss your faith I understand, but then you should refrain from wearing your religiosity as a badge. I understand the difficulty you may have convincing the GLBT community to support the pro-life cause so I wish you good luck in your pro-life efforts and bad luck in your attacks on people living their lives according to God’s plan for the family.
Alexandra, I assume Ed and any GLBT people who are pro-life would renounce the actions of the GLBT people in this video. Jill is just reporting the events of Joe Schiedler’s award ceremony. The GLBT crowd chose themselves to oppose the award. Their presence in opposition to the award is reason enough for this discussion on this site.
I have attacked NO-ONE teuthseeker, and I would happily discuss my faith with you if I thought for one second that you were interested in hearing what I believe. But you’re not, you’re interested in proving me wrong, and you right.
I have NOT attacked the church, I have NOT attacked anyone, I do NOT wear my religiosity as a badge. It is NOT that I have a problem discussing my faith, I just will not discuss it with you. You’ve shown yourself to be closed to my thoughts, you have deliberately mis-interrpereted and twisted what I have said, you have accused me of things I havent done. Why would I discuss my faith with such a person?
And wishing me “bad luck in my attacks on people living their lives according to God’s plan for the family” – a disgusting statement that has no base in truth, absolutely despicable, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Ed, maybe there will someday be a GLBT group that can spread what is considered to be “good” news with regard to the pro-life cause. I would hope your support of the pro-life cause could generate some of that good news. Please share it with us if you do. Your original post about your “good” gay news being the redefinition of marriage is not what I would qualify as “good” pro-life news. Maybe next time the “good” gay news you post will be relevant to the pro-life cause.
“ I do NOT wear my religiosity as a badge.”
Ed,
Previously you had posted “Also, as it happens I (although not our group) am quite religious / spiritual”.
That post left me with the impression that you were proud of your spirituality.
Listen to Alexandra
At the end of the day, I don’t answer to Alexandra.
NO TANGENTIALLY RELATED LIBERAL SOCIAL POLITICS
Some of us do see homosexual behavior in relationship to abortion
The sign in the video speaks volumes and that alone warrants discussion. The blatant stereotype that mostly religious pro-lifers who oppose certain sexual behaviors are anti-gay, homophobic or hateful needs to stop. We are not.
It offends me that we are accused of this time and time again. If you feel the need to start a new group because some of us oppose certain sexual behaviors, best of luck. But you are the ones causing the division in the movement, not us.
I don’t hide it either mate. I think considering the tone of this discussion it was appropriate to point out that I do in fact have a faith.
And I know you deny attacking the church but your posts about people being unshackeled from Rome etc. seemed to revel in what you saw as the decline of the church in Ireland. I did not ‘twist’ anything.
“The blatant stereotype that mostly religious pro-lifers who oppose certain sexual behaviors are anti-gay, homophobic or hateful needs to stop.”
No-one here has accused anyone of homophobia. I dont think it’s homophobic to consider active homosexuality a sin, but why would I give my time and money to a group that campaigns against the equal treatment of me and my peers?
Youth Defence are free to campaign against gay marriage, I dont think it makes them homophobic, but why would I give them my time or money when alongside abortion they are campaigning AGAINST something I believe in?
If you read what Alexandra said, that sums up my feelings perfectly, if you still cant see where Im coming from, then I’ll assume you’d be happy to donate your hard earned money, or your free time to LGBT Pro-Life Alliance
Truthseeker, mate, you’re clutching at straws now. And beginging to look a bit silly. I have not attacked the church. end of. You can twist whatever I say which ever way you want. It wont change the fact that I respect the Church and have stated this over and over and over.
You’re being very selective with your quotes and beginging to look like a gutter journalist.
Some of us do see homosexual behavior in relationship to abortion
So let’s say some atheist pro-lifers see religious behavior in relationship to abortion. And let’s say you have a problem with that. Are YOU the one causing division in the movement by simply opting to congregate with pro-lifers who DON’T promote anti-religious-behavior news, organizations, etc?
If, say, lots of conservatives don’t like the way the Republican party has been managing things, ans so they vote for third-party candidates, are those people – those individuals exercising their right to vote - causing division or are they simply reacting to a party that has divided them out of it?
The sign in the video speaks volumes and that alone warrants discussion. The blatant stereotype that mostly religious pro-lifers who oppose certain sexual behaviors are anti-gay, homophobic or hateful needs to stop. We are not.
That’s fine, and a commendable goal, but it has nothing to do with the fact that it’s incorrect to dismiss the motives and experiences of gay pro-lifers as just being about “wanting everyone to agree with them” when it goes down to fundamentals of simply wanting to fight abortion and not wanting to put up with gay marriage/military/whatever debate as a necessary part of that.
“And wishing me “bad luck in my attacks on people living their lives according to God’s plan for the family” – a disgusting statement that has no base in truth, absolutely despicable, you should be ashamed of yourself.
I will let your words speak for themselves. You conveniently deny the tone of your comments and skirt around the edges with insinuations about things that you don’t have the spine to stand up for. I point out God’s plan for the family according to scripture and you say you do not believe scripture is the Word of God. So I post:
“You say you believe in God but you are not sure you believe in the virgin birth of Jesus and you do not believe the Bible is the Word of God. Tell me then, who is this God you worship and where does he come from? ”
You response is to deflect. I told you the basis for my statement that the premise of homosexual marriage goes against God’s plan for the family. Instead of calling me a liar you should explain what is the basis for your opinion that homosexual marriage is according to God’s will. Or is your position that you don’t care about God’s plan one way or the other? I don;t want assume that is what you meant when you said:
“whether God likes it or not, gay marriage exists.”
This is ridiculous.
I will stand up for my beliefs, what you have to ask yourself is why are you attacking me? If you’re not attacking me, why would I need the spine to stand up to you?
If I thought for 1 second you were interested in my beliefs I would be happy to discuss them with you, you’re interested in playing word games. You’re interested in proving me wrong and you’ve shown yourself to be an angry, closed minded person.
You’ll be in my prayers x
You keep editing your posts after posting. I never called you a liar in relation to your beliefs. You’re unbelieveable and this is a waste of time. Good luck x
Ed, the peace of Jesus Christ be with you. I didn’t atack you. I did ask you some tough questions about your posts.
Ed,
” ….year on year the number of Irish women travelling to England for an abortion declines.”
Usually pro-aborts tell us the opposite here (at Jill’s). Why do you suppose fewer Irish women are traveling to England for abortion?
“You keep editing your posts after posting.”
Sorry Ed, I often take advantage of the 15 minutes after posting that we have where we are allowed to edit our thoughts.
Most LGBT people I have spoken to are ignorant on the facts of abortion, most are HORRIFIED when they discover what it actually is, and most would quite happily lend their voice and their vote to the pro-life movement.
Ed,
I commend you for “lending you voice” even if your political votes don’t necessarily follow for whatever personal reasons. We need to bring one heart at a time into the pro-life fold and that will happen if we ALL continue speaking out. May God bless you with the strength to continue no matter what other biases confront you.
truthseeker: I’m not sexually active with homosexual partners because I believe monogamy is more emotionally stable and has less potential for harm than polyamory. I have a boyfriend and we’re getting married in roughly a year. If a girl and I had fallen in love with each other before I met him and we’d stayed together, I’d have a girlfriend and not a boyfriend.
That’s fine, and a commendable goal, but it has nothing to do with the fact that it’s incorrect to dismiss the motives and experiences of gay pro-lifers as just being about “wanting everyone to agree with them” when it goes down to fundamentals of simply wanting to fight abortion and not wanting to put up with gay marriage/military/whatever debate as a necessary part of that.
Yep. If people want to actively work for a universal definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman, or whatever they want to actively work for, I think they should go right ahead. I just don’t think they should tie that activism into the pro-life movement because it’s an entirely separate issue.
Not looking for a universal definition Marauder. I am looking for the definition to remain the same as it has been throughout time. Marriage is a special relationship created and defined by God in the Bible. And I pray for guidance to boldly and honestly live according to God’s will. Several times Ed spoke of not seeing other organizations who do great pro-life work but not wanting to support them with donations because they do not reciprocate by supporting his homosexual agenda. Now, I have no objection to Ed or anybody else NOT donating to any organization if they so choose. Certainly one such considerations for where to make donations should be where they can make the greatest difference in saving the most mother’s and babies from abortion. It is a personal decision when and to whom you give your money. And a person can place whatever restrictions they want upon their own funds when they donate. But unless Ed is really, really rich, wether or not he decides to donate to any other pro-life groups is not gonna make as much of a difference. What does make a difference is his convictions and his actions and the works of his mouth and of his hands.
Marauder,
I asked you that question about submission to God’s will for us because I thought that was part of why you chose celibacy. What denomination/faith are you if you don’t mind my asking?
Hi Janet,
The fact is that since 2002 the number of Irish women travelling to UK for an abortion has dropped by over 30%. They’re the government stats – anything else you’re told is simply untrue. I have no idea why this is, Im sure some credit must go to Youth Defence who do an unbelieveable job with spreading the prolife message in towns and cities across Ireland.
Also, Im sure recent safe sex campaigns by the government has helped.
Thank you for your kind words, I assure you I always, ALWAYS vote pro-life, even at the expense of LGBT rights. If you go to our website you’ll see the latest blog entry is about the upcoming elections in Nothern Ireland where we say that without the right to life, all our other rights are hollow.
Ed,
Keep up the fight to protect Ireland from the scourge of abortion. I understand your reasons for not being comfortable around people who condemn your homosexual lifestyle choice. To me a friend is someone who calls it like they see it. I am not very big on being politically correct. Do I think you are really against God’s plan for the family, I would say no. Do I think promoting the homosexual lifestyle is against God’s plan for the family, I would say yes.
In a previous post you said you believe in the Holy Spirit. I see the Holy Spirit working in you when you work to save mother’s and their children. The Irish are a hard-headed people and it will serve them well as they battle the EU to keep abortion illegal in Ireland. In that matie, I wish and pray that the Holy Spirit stays with you and guides you in the struggle. Get a group from the Irish LGBT community to go into England and protest an abortion mill and go international. Don’t let anybody slow you down. And if you make it into the US and can set your iteneray to stop in Chicago I would like to take you to protest a mill together.