What “pro-choice” Christians must believe…
Aug.02, 2011 11:41 am |
Inconsistencies |
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Excellent rebuttal to those who employ the oxymoronic title, “pro choice Christian”!
Oh my gosh!!! Too funny!
Gets right to the point. Love it.
It’s unfortunate, but that’s the mindset of the pro-choice/pro-abort side.
This magnificent painting, “The Annunciation,” is by Henry O. Tanner, a brilliant African American artist. It’s in the permanent collection of the Philadelphia Museum of Art. If you’re ever in the city, you MUST visit the museum. This painting is so beautiful that when I first saw it, tears filled my eyes. Tanner’s use of light is pure genuis. It’s one of my favorite paintings.
I also like it because it shows Mary as she probably looked, an olive-skinned, black-haired, dark-eyed Jewish girl. There’s nothing wrong with being blonde and blue-eyed, but Jews of the 1st century AD didn’t look that way!
There is also a temporary exhibit of Rembrandt’s paintings of Christ on exhibit, for which he used models of his neighbors from the city’s Jewish quarter.
Excellent point, phillymiss. I think it was during the Renaissance period(perhaps?) that Jesus, Mary, etc. were “gentile-ized” (my word for it) and painted as fair skinned, blue-eyed blondes, which they aren’t.
Phillymiss, I love those Rembrandt paintings of Christ — and this painting too. Aside from the authentically Jewish part, I think Rembrandt gave Jesus the most compassionate and deeply spiritual expression I’ve seen in any painting.
Good point. There is more on this subject at catholicurrent.com.
I believe that the new testament states ” …and Mary was with child.” not “… and Mary was with tissues.”.
Some Chesterton quotes:
“There are an infinite number of ways to fall, but there is only one way to stand.”
“Is one religion as good as another? Is one horse in the Derby as good as another?”
“Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God.”
“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
“Be careful not to be so open-minded that your brains fall out.”
“I want a church that moves the world not one that moves with it”
“Take away the supernatural and what remains is the unnatural”
“Moral issues are always terribly complex for someone without principles.”
“When men cease to believe in God they do not thereafter believe in nothing; they believe in anything!”
Mother Teresa:
“America needs no words from me to see how your decision in “Roe vs Wade” have deformed a great nation.”
“Today, having a clear faith based on the Creed of the Church is often labeled as fundamentalism. Whereas relativism, that is, letting oneself be tossed here and there, carried about by every wind of doctrine [Ephesians 4:14], seems the only attitude that can cope with modern times. We are building a dictatorship of relativism that does not recognize anything as definitive and whose ultimate goal consists solely of one’s ego and desires.” — Cardinal Ratzinger (before he became pope)
George Orwell stated “During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”
Volunteer,
You miss the part where Mary said ‘yes’.
I think Pro-Choice Christians actually believe what the Bible teaches in that it is not up to any of us to judge anyone else for their behavior. That is God’s job alone. Forgiveness and understanding is our job. The 10 commandments is God’s set of rules to get into heaven, not his set of rules for us to enforce here on earth.
God is Pro-Choice as he gave choice to us in the first place.
So, Biggz, none of the 10 Commandments should have any earthly effect? Remember, they contain prohibitions against such things murder, robbery, and giving false testimony (perjury) in court. So there should be no enforcement of these rules on earth?
@James
You miss the part where no question was asked to her.
It is impossible to help the sinner while simultaneously condoning the sin.
The 10 commandments is God’s set of rules to get into heaven, not his set of rules for us to enforce here on earth.
Um… this is simply false.
I think Luke 1:26-38 shows clearly that being the mother of Jesus was not something Mary viewed as oppressive. When I see pictures of her or meditate on her life it helps me to view motherhood as a grace and not an obligation. One of my favorite paintings is of her holding a bouquet of roses that look like heirloom roses. To me she is the Queen of all mothers and although I don’t worship her her grace is something I strive for. When my son was very sick and his pain issues were being ignored, while he was in a hospital, I prayed for her intervention and after that his pain issues were addressed.
Biggz, actually, the Bible says we SHOULD judge actions and behavior. It says we should NOT judge the state of someone’s soul or their eternal destination. See here for a more thorough explanation (written for Catholics, but applicable for all Christians).
Biggz said: God is Pro-Choice as he gave choice to us in the first place.
God gave us the choice to decide to follow Him or not follow Him. That’s the choice He gives us, that doesn’t mean He’s for abortion.
Lori – Not according to the Bible. Why should I be subject to your religious rules if I do not follow your religion?
Myrtle – These are artist renderings of events they never witnessed. They are paintings not photos. They are paintings of Christian stories painted by a Christian believer. Zero objectivity or fact.
Joanna – I am not a Christian in anyway shape or form. However we are not talking about your Christian version of the Old Testament. The Old Testament belongs to the Jewish people and they say Moses was given a list of Ten Commandments to lead his people to heaven and remain righteous in the eyes of god. Why should I be subject to Christian, Jewish, or Muslin laws? I agreed to none of them…
Mother in Texas – No God gave man “Free Will” to make choices for ourselves and if he was anti-choice he would not have given us free will. The decision to live your life as you see fit is a god given right “according to the bible” but, you must face the consequences for your decisions when you stand before Saint Peter at the gates to heaven. I have no interest in going to heaven even if it did exist… too many Mormons and televangelists for me to spend eternity there…
According to the Bible, God is Pro-choice as he invented choice in the first place.
Biggz: While it is true that God gave us free will it did not negate the possibility that there would be such a thing as a WRONG, even DEADLY CHOICE. That being the choice born out of the original sin, self-will, to disobey God’s will and follow our own. Just because the choice exists does not mean that God condones it.
And we all know you use the word “choice” as a euphemism for abortion, and I assure you, as God does in His word, that He does not condone murder.
“Saint Peter at the gates” is not Biblical so don’t worry, no one will stand before him. It’s not Saint Peter we have to answer to, it is Jesus Christ. He alone judges the living and the dead. It is not obedience to any religion, doctrine, law, or ten commandments that makes our entrance into heaven possible, but only our obedience to Jesus Christ, our taking on of His image, and acceptance of His blood for the washing and forgiveness of our sins. He (not the ten commandments or any law) is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and NO ONE comes unto the Father except through Him.
Your subscription to, or lack therefor of, any belief system does not make the existence of God, or His role in the ultimate judgment of your eternal soul, any less likely or true.
Biggz first off if you are not Christian then wht are you arguing Christian issues. God gave us choices right and wrong good or bad. Following Christ would not be as glorious if we were forced to follow Him. Just because it was created does not mean God approves it or wants it in our world. If it were true then Cancer would be a good thing…Things happen because there is an evil in the world. God has the power to rid of power however this help prepare and determine the good from the bad people. The merciful and wonderful from the evil and ungrateful. The good go to the glorfied and perfect heaven while the others dwell in the hate and evil.
God gave us the choice to decide to follow Him or not follow Him. That’s the choice He gives us, that doesn’t mean He’s for abortion.
Perhaps, but I don’t see much effort by this all powerful deity to stop it. Any evidence, apart from the Bible, that the Christian God isn’t a fan of abortion? Perhaps it’s time for an even newer testament.
Biggz
DaVinci’s portrayal of “Embryo In the Womb” was taken from cadaveres. I’m assuming that is the painting your referring to.
Hal
As the spiritual leader or co-leader in your own home what have you done to ensure the safety of any unborn that have been a result of your marriage covenant. I think the God of the bible has faith in us as individuals to make good choices. And people who are true proponents of death whether it be of the unborn, the disabled or the elderly there own worldview guarantees their failure. History bears this out. Bullies always lose. Perhaps its time people took responsibility for there own actions.
Perhaps it’s time for an even newer testament.
So, if there were a newer one, then you’d listen? Right.
@Sav
Biggz is probably arguing the point from the christian angle because if you approach the whole thing on the outside as atheistic or point out inconsistancies in the fath then the mods remove the posts.
You can use god to defend prolife claims here but you aren;t allowed to argue against those claims.
Biggz: “…the Jewish people and they say Moses was given a list of Ten Commandments to lead his people to heaven”
Bzzt! Try again.
“I think Pro-Choice Christians actually believe what the Bible teaches in that it is not up to any of us to judge anyone else for their behavior. That is God’s job alone. Forgiveness and understanding is our job.”
Biggz, you’re the gift that keeps on giving, you really are. How can you forgive someone if you haven’t judged what they’ve done as something that stands in need of forgiveness?
Meanwhile, murderers and burglars seem to be judged just fine by society, and you don’t really find a problem with that.
Or maybe, Biggz, it’s because you subscribe to an illiterate, ignorant, shallow, popularized sense of what it means to “judge” someone.
“The 10 commandments is God’s set of rules to get into heaven, not his set of rules for us to enforce here on earth.”
Good GRIEF. Such ignorance. Where do you GET this stuff, Biggz? First of all, there are 613 commandments — not 10. Secondly, they had nothing to do with heaven — nothing at all. They were Israel’s civil code. It was a theocracy, but it was their code as a nation. Thirdly, they were enforced — just as the USC is in the U.S., or state laws are in each state.
Dude. Will you PLEASE stop painting concentric red circles on your ar$e.
Although the following article is about John the Baptist, it addresses some of the same issues:
When the angel Gabriel appeared to the priest Zechariah, he told Zechariah that he and his wife Elizabeth were to have a child and to name him John – the same John who baptized Jesus and quoted Isaiah, “…Prepare the way of the Lord,” (Luke 3:4, ESV). Gabriel later announced to Mary that she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus, and she went to visit her cousin Elizabeth in the country, “And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb.” (Luke 1:41a, ESV)
The ancient Greek word for leap, skirtao, is same word used in the Gospel when Jesus preached the beatitudes to a crowd, instructing them “Rejoice in that day and leap for joy” (Luke 6:23, ESV), suggesting skirtao describes a chosen movement by a person, not a reflex or random movement by a “potential” person. More significantly, the ancient Greek word used for baby here, brephos, is the same word in the Gospel describing the words of an angel of the Lord to the shepherds at Jesus’ birth, “And this will be a sign for you: you will find the baby wrapped in swaddling clothes and lying in a manger. (Luke 2:12, ESV), equating a pre-born baby with a baby already born.
The use of both ancient Greek words in Luke’s Gospel demonstrate Scripture’s assertion that John the Baptist, leaping before he was born, was fully a person.
Hal:
“Perhaps, but I don’t see much effort by this all powerful deity to stop it.”
What are we? Chopped liver? ;)
There was once a time when forgiveness for sins was not possible. God’s Judgement was timely and just. Then God, out of His incredible LOVE for us gave His Son to die in our place and bought forgiveness for our transgressions. Now, we have the opportunity to be saved. God is not a slacker. His not judging and punishing us for abortion/murder/thieving/raping/etc. is not a condoning of those actions, it is Him WAITING. He waits for us to repent. To ask for forgiveness. To return to Him. He doesn’t want us to die.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
“Perhaps it’s time for an even newer testament. ”
Galations 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
I wouldn’t be trying to change God’s word if I were you. Any “new new testament” or “another testament” or “addition to” God’s word is LIES. His word is complete and true.
Volunteer:
” if you approach the whole thing on the outside as atheistic or point out inconsistancies in the fath then the mods remove the posts.”
That’s not true. (As far as I’ve noted) The posts are removed when they outwardly attack and blaspheme God and/or the catholic church (as I’ve noticed). If you want to discuss theocracy, or philosophy in an intelligent non-offensive manner, that’s fine. I’ve seen it done here. But name-calling and blasphemy is not cool. k?
Hippie – We use the word Choice to mean choice not abortion. As I have stated in the past, we are Pro-Choice not Pro-Abortion. I would like to see all pregnant women become mothers; it was a life changing experience for my wife and I both. However I refuse to take that option away from any woman who does not want to be a parent. It is a very tough job that consumes every aspect of your life and can be disastrous for all parties concerned if the parents are not ready or capable of being parents. As for Saint Peter the Catholics made him up so you can take that up with them. Furthermore are you suggesting that there are no Jews in your heaven? Other than Jesus I mean. There is zero evidence that any such thing as a soul even exists, let alone anyone around to pass judgment on mine… Like I said God gave us Choice in the first place therefore he must be Pro-Choice by the definition of the words.
Sav – It must be so liberating to look at the entire world in terms of good and evil or black and white. It must simplify life for you very much. I quit looking for monsters under my bed when I was 5 and hospitalized for 3 months in an oxygen tent, I knew at 5 years old that there are far greater dangers in the world than Boogiemen.
Myrtle – So what would you call the crusades? Christians murdering hundreds of thousands of people in the name of your god? I can list off many Christian terrorist who have murdered in the name of god but you guys will say they are isolated incidents committed by fringe crazy people who do not represent most Christians… So how about the Crusades? Were they sanctioned by god?
Volunteer – THANK YOU! for pointing that out.
Rasqual – You are just plain rude and juvenile. If I talked to you the way you talk to me, my post would get pulled off the blog by the admins! So you Blanking Blank, Moses carried 10 commandments down from Mount. Sinai given to him from a burning bush… Just TEN. Are there 613 commandments on the front of those court houses down south? Every single person reading your last post knows you are just being condescending and argumentative while talking out your backside…
Eric – I disagree with you about what was intended with those passages but thank you for bringing logic and evidence to your argument. However let’s not forget that Luke was a Doctor and had access to drugs and some think a bit of a drug problem to go with it.
Hippie – So are you suggesting that there are no Mormons in heaven as they follow their own gospel written here in the US? Just asking because it always seems to me that Christians only accept Mormons as equals when they need numbers but they all truly feel they are not Christians and have no place in heaven. Also many of my arguments against religion have been taken off this blog. What one person would consider to be deductive reasoning can be seen as blaspheme by others who are believers, and as belief does not require evidence or logic I end up arguing against someone else’s feelings.
Biggz:
I refuse to play your word games :) “pro-choice” means pro-abortion since that is the only “choice” a “pro-choice” person vehemently promotes and defends. Pro-choice” people are generally absent from PRC’s, CPC’s, Life marches, Sidewalk outreach, and other efforts that seek to promote and encourage parenthood and/or adoption. Why? Why if they also support parenthood? Why if their only focus and goal is NOT the abortion of the baby? Why, if a “pro-choice” person volunteers at all is it so often at an abortion mill as escort, “doula”, or office/medical aid? Directly or indirectly pushing and supporting only the one “choice”, abortion?
God is by no means pro-abortion, no matter how you try to spin the terminology.
“if the parents are not ready or capable of being parents.”
That consideration becomes moot the moment a child is conceived. They are then parents, ready or not, already. Thanks to abortion they can “choose” to murder their child before birth, but that doesn’t make them NOT parents or prevent anything “disastrous”. A child’s intentional murder is about as disastrous as things get.
And about whether or not some group of people is or isn’t going to heaven is not up to me. That’s what the “judge not” actually refers to. I don’t know who is in heaven and who isn’t and I’m simply not allowed to say or decide. I do know what God’s word says is necessary for entrance. I do know He hasn’t minced His words. They are very clear. He is the NARROW way. And He didn’t say “all roads lead to God” He said “NO ONE comes unto the Father except through ME.” Jesus. Not Joe Smith. Not Muhammad. Not Buddha. Not the spaghetti monster. JESUS. PERIOD. And that’s not me. That’s God’s word.
I love my Mormon mother-in-law a great deal, and according to God’s word she does not meet His criteria (so to speak) to enter through His gates. But when she dies I will still not be able to say where she is or isn’t. I also have very dear truly Bible-believing Christian friends, and still while there is some reassurance in His word that they (and I) will live forever in His presence, I still cannot say (or judge) where they will be. I will only know once I get to heaven. While I remember to preach His word, as I do now, for the sake of those who are still in their sin, I work out MY OWN salvation with fear and trembling, knowing that however good I think I am, God (Jesus) is my ultimate judge :)
Philippians 2:12-13
English Standard Version (ESV)
12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
The original crusades were a reaction to the Jihad that the Muslims launched against Christian pilgrims traveling to the holy sites in and around Jerusalem.. The Crusades began as a rescue mission to free and protect persecuted and imprisoned Christians who were being violently oppressed by Muslims. Whatever they became after that was unfortunate, but I burden you to present another religion that has the same record of peace and outreach as Christianity. Even counting all the crusades, even the greedy conquests of the later “crusades” that shouldn’t even bear that term, Christianity as a whole is still the most peaceful and generous religion in the world.
It’s obvious where you learned your history. I honestly do consider you to be quite intelligent. I know you could research further on your own if you were at all concerned about TRUTH.
The burning bush was waaaaaay before Sinai. btw. :) God’s Ten Commandments are generally considered separate from the law of Moses. The ten commandments define sin, the law of moses (or the ceremonial law) defines sacrifices (the remedy for sin). Since Christ took our sins upon the cross, and His sacrifice counts for all sin, for all people, for ever, the ceremonial law is now moot and defunct. We are set FREE! God’s Law (the ten commandments) still counts though. They were in effect in the beginning and are in effect forever. Whereas, for example, it is no longer sinful to eat pork, it was/is/and will be forever sinful to murder.
“as belief does not require evidence or logic I end up arguing against someone else’s feelings”
I can see where that would be difficult ;) In a way, you could say we are both in the same boat. :))
Biggz
I really don’t know if the crusades were sanctioned by God. To know that I would have to know the history before the crusades and what was going on. I have very little knowledge of that time period. Something I do know about though is Rome. Now I will educate you about what they were doing, how there were doing it and I will do my best to help you see the similarities between what you support and what was going on way back when. A long time ago there was a very strong empire it was called Rome they were doing really well until they decided to start killing Christians and others as well. This is the really sad part. When building there coliseum they had places where they could keep tigers and other animals that was so they could use them to rip the Christians and others apart. In your opinion Biggz who are you more like? Those who supported the building of the coliseum? Those who withheld substinence from the tigers so that they would kill? Or are you like the people in the crowd that shouted yah? Or the lesser of the evils did you support their right to do so? Not the people in the crowd but the tigers. And now I get to finish my story. While the festivities were going on yah everybody happy killing the Christians and others, company was coming I think they were called the Goths. Anyway company came and the rest of course is in the history books. So my prayer to my God the one you don’t believe in is that unlike Rome I pray he has mercy on our country of course we don’t deserve it too many dead babies for that but I hope he grants us mercy anyway. And while praying for mercy for our nation I’m also praying that the coliseums close quickly, the tigers see fit to quickly amend their ways and that those who support them will see fit to aspire for challenges that add and not take away. What are your thoughts