Explosive new evidence of torture, murder, and pillage to be revealed today at House hearing on China’s brutal one-child policy
In the wake of Vice President Joe Biden’s statement last month expressing support for China’s barbaric one-child policy, the House Subcommittee on Africa, Global Health, and Human Rights will hold a hearing today about the gross human rights violations being committed by the Communist Chinese government in an attempt to forcibly control its population.
The hearing will start at 2p EST and can be watched online. Watch for explosive new information. I’ve received an advance copy of the testimony to be given by Reggie Littlejohn, President of Women’s Rights Without Frontiers, and it is heartbreaking and infuriating. How can China be getting away with this as the world stands by?
Littlejohn’s report, which includes photos, contains 13 new documented cases of “family planning” coercion, including the forced abortion of 8-1/2 month old twins; Family Planning Police; Family Planning jail cells; the demolition of homes (even by relatives, for missing a pregnancy check); the use of “implication” (detention, torture and fining of relatives of “violators”); a couple brutally tortured for missing a pregnancy check by one day; a man whose head was smashed and who is now permanently disabled because his wife had a second child; and a father who was beaten to death because his son was suspected of having a second child.
Littlejohn’s report will also name names of the perpetrators. The information and photos come from a Chinese informant at great risk.
Als0, I’m told the third witness, Dr. Valerie Hudson, author of the 2004 book, Bare Branches, and a professor at Brigham Young University, will expose equally explosive statistical information from a newly revealed Chinese census that shows an alarming absence of women in China, a void that historically leads to widespread and powerful social unrest.
Photos:
- Top photo is of detained illegally pregnant mothers about to be forcibly aborted using ethacridine lactate – comparable to a saline abortion.
- Middle screen shot is of a husband and wife viewing their home after it was demolished because they had illegally borne a second child.
- Bottom photo is one of several homes destroyed after a village inspection uncovered illegal mothers. One was eight months pregnant. According to Littlejohn’s testimony: “Before the operation, the doctor touched the baby in her abdomen and sighed: ‘The bone is already hard, already a human.'”

Dear God… those poor women; those poor babies. :( The photos here are devastating. What an evil regime.
How telling that we’re not hearing Cecile Richards or Amanda Marcotte or Barbara Boxer or Michelle Obama screaming about the degrading and abusive treatment of these women, the violation of their rights and freedom. I guess women who actually want their babies don’t matter to the “Feminists.” I mean, if a woman has to be forced to receive the “sacrament” of abortion, well, at least she still received it. Abortion is all that matters. Not women, not freedom, certainly not babies. All hail abortion!
This absolutely breaks my heart. :(
Has anyone been able to watch the hearing? I found the Live Streaming link but the page says the video is unavailable.
How long, O Lord?
Nasty, for sure.
Jen: How telling that we’re not hearing Cecile Richards or Amanda Marcotte or Barbara Boxer or Michelle Obama screaming about the degrading and abusive treatment of these women, the violation of their rights and freedom.
Oh come on – if we had a Republican President, do you think she (or the wife if it was a male President) would be “screaming” about it?
Apparently the hearing has just started. You can watch here: http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/hearings_livestream.asp?secondary
This is so horrible. Those poor families…
What was joan saying about the One Child Policy improving the lot of women in China? I am thinking not.
Jack, it’s not so simple as that. Agreed 100% that China is a brutal regime in some respects, and that the women in the pictures are certainly suffering. That does not mean that some other things have not changed for the better, for women.
Thomas Friedman of the New York Times must be licking his chops.
Can’t you just smell the communism?
Do they have chops in China?
Doug, how? The massive gender imbalance has resulted in forced marriages, sex trafficking, sex slavery, and rape, to name just a few woes born Chinese women face. And the plight of Chinese women will only grow worse as the society grows more male-dominated, more patriarchal. How have twomen’s lives improved whatsoever?
Amy, right, the livestream was delayed but is in full swing now.
Jill, some of those things were already going on – arranged marriage goes way back into Chinese history, and rape, for example, wasn’t unknown prior to the one-child policy, I’d say. Hasn’t China pretty much “always” been patriarchal and male-dominated?
I’m not saying the one-child policy is “good.” It’s a net negative, overall, for the society, I’d say. As far as how women’s lives in China have improved – Jack or Joan or somebody needs to weigh in – I forget the specifics. Something like there being better employment opportunities and/or something related to women being more “in demand.” What Joan said or linked to made sense to me at the time.
Doug, you pretty much got it. My problem is, even if there are a couple benefits to this for a few women, it doesn’t even begin to justify the tactics taken to gain these dubious benefits. The majority of women are being horrifically oppressed. I don’t see how people who talk about reproductive freedom can justify supporting or tolerating a law that does the exact opposite of grant women the choice of when and if to have a child.
Jack, no argument there – they certainly are being oppressed. In no way is the one-child policy “pro-choice.”
Here is the article you have in mind, Doug:
http://www.beaumontenterprise.com/news/article/One-child-policy-a-surprising-boon-for-China-girls-1992086.php
The long and short of it is that today, in China, partially as a result of certain social policies, including the “One Child Policy”, women have more educational and employment opportunities available to them than they did before. This doesn’t necessarily vindicate the policy itself or its implementation, but it does help to put it into perspective. Some people here don’t want it in perspective, though, because things are much easier to understand when they are black and white with no shades of gray in between.
Doug, there are millions of missing girls in China. Aborted because they are female. That is NOT better for women. The women that survived did so narrowly. It is a hostile country towards females.
I am looking at the photos of those women with their beautiful swollen bellies and see the horror in their faces… they love and want their babies and know they are about to die terrible deaths.
I just want to shake Biden! I want to shake him by his slimy shoulders and ask him if he could stop whoring himself out for two seconds and try to conjure SOME kind of conscience in his old bony head and SEE what he is paying obsequious lip service to…
I am finally pregnant with a much longed for second child (just waiting for Biggz to jump on me for daring to bring up my pregnancy AGAIN. I am fetus obsessed apparently) and I just shudder and think in China I would be jailed, beaten and my child murdered for my great “crime”. I am going to rub my baby bump now. I am seriously upset.
Sydney: I am looking at the photos of those women with their beautiful swollen bellies and see the horror in their faces… they love and want their babies and know they are about to die terrible deaths.
Sydney, I agree – this is horrible. Again, I’m not saying that China’s actions are “good,” overall.
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just waiting for Biggz to jump on me for daring to bring up my pregnancy AGAIN
This is where I’m not so sure – Biggz might still be looking for Carla’s sock. ;)
Some people here don’t want it in perspective, though, because things are much easier to understand when they are black and white with no shades of gray in between.
Thanks, Joan, and yeah – there is a good bit of “thinking in silhouette” that goes on.
I will be the first to admit some areas of life are not black or white but gray. But anyone who doesn’t see strapping women down and forcibly killing full term babies as a black and white issue is crazy!!! Like Jeffrey Dahmer CRAZY!!!! Not cute old lady living with 40 cats crazy.
why is it horrible Doug?
Absolutely heartbreaking! These policies in China are pure evil and anyone that supports them is a monster.
Some people here don’t want it in perspective, though, because things are much easier to understand when they are black and white with no shades of gray in between.
No, evil is a black and white issue. You want to make it seem ambiguous because you are trying to justify the unjustifiable. You bring up these duboius claims that women are more valuable when they are scarce, but it is not backed up by actual evidence. This theory has been trotted out for years by pro-abortion and population apologists trying to deflect criticism of what is been going on in China and Northern India with the coercive population policies and targeted sex selection of girls. All of which, BTW, was heavily promoted and financed by the population control movement in the West. There is strong evidence that the higher the sex ratio of a certain area the more kidnappings, rape, and overall crime. Mara Hvistendahl’s book, Unnatural Selection, is just one of many that covers this. Hvistendahl also proves that the population controllers who originally started this mess back in the 60’s knew that the skewed sex ratios would subjucate women and still they forged ahead and brushed it off as insignificant. The sex ratio is not is not the same in every Chinese village, city, or province and studies looking at where it is the worst find the worst outcomes for women. For instance, abduction of girls by families who raise her as a slave to one day be a bride for their son and many men are having to sexually “share” one woman. I am sure that there are pockets of China where women have modernized, but this would have happened without the one-child policy and the benefits would have been felt by all, not just a select few.
Not wanting it in perspective and rejecting the idea that moderately higher educational achievement on the backs of millions of dead children adds something to the perspective are two different things.
If every surviving woman in China had MARKEDLY better educational opportunities and was significantly richer, it would still lend nothing at all to the debate about the morality of the 1 child policy. Nothing.
These policies in China are pure evil and anyone that supports them is a monster.
Exactly right, Julie. It is evil – pure and simple. It is frightening to think that there are so many who would even try to defend it.
Doug,
I can absolutely guarantee that if Rick Santorum were President, he and his wife would be shouting from the rooftops about this evil in China. He shouts about the evil of abortion on a regular basis even though it costs him political points.
Joan… will you ever own it? You favor abortions even if forced or there’s no way on earth you could find ways to explain or gain “perspective” about this atrocity in China. To you it’s a shade of grey that we must try to understand. So much for your solidarity with women and their bodily autonomy and their rights and all. I think you are simply in love with abortion. You are in great peril, indeed.
Sydney,
Totally agree.
To not see this as evil is crazy.
I can absolutely guarantee that if Rick Santorum were President, he and his wife would be shouting from the rooftops about this evil in China. He shouts about the evil of abortion on a regular basis even though it costs him political points.
Jen, you’re right, there. I didn’t consider him as being a possibility since he’s seen as such a coo-coo bird by so many people.
why is it horrible Doug?
Jasper, because of the suffering involved. I don’t see any reason nearly good enough for it.
Then denounce it, Doug. Denounce it no uncertain terms.
Evil! Horrific! Awful! Unthinkable! Barbaric! Atrocious!
Take your pick.
Things are good or they are evil. True ‘gray’ is exceptionally rare in matters of life. It’s not that evils like China’s one child policy has it’s ‘good points’ it’s that the indominable human spirit is capable of wresting good from even the most horrid of situations. Black slaves torn from loving families to work in the deep south found joy in new families, in spouses, sons and daughters, even if they then had to watch them be sold. That doesn’t mean that slavery ‘had it’s good points’ it just is a testimony to man’s resourcefulness. The mother who finds joy in her children after being widowed, the rape victim who finds solace in a loving husband whom she likely would never have married if she haden’t been pregnant, the abused child who becomes a social worker, the man who starts his own company after being fired, the woman who seeks an education after her fertility has been stolen are all examples of humanities ability to phoenix from the ashes of evil, *not* examples of ‘gray’ situations. China’s one child policy, which can not possibly be enforced without extreme human rights violations, is nothing but pure blackness. Any good happens *despite* it and *because* of individuals marshalling will from despair. All good belongs solely to the individuals, and never to the terrors that forced the situation to begin with.
joan, I believe you see things in… well, mostly black. Remember these very pro-abortion comments you made on a previous China/forced abortion thread?
joan
Submitted on 2010/10/22 at 10:53 am
This offends our western, liberal sensibilities. It’s only natural that it does, of course. However, we should also be mindful of the huge gulf that exists between what is right and acceptable in western societies and what is right and acceptable in Chinese society, and the factors that inform these differences. The social and demographic situation in China is unlike anything a western observer could even conceive. Literally one quarter of the world’s population lives in China, a direct result of traditional Chinese norms that emphasize large immediate families for agricultural and social reasons. Without robust mechanisms for population control, the size of the population would spiral out of control and the situation would become untenable. Forced abortion and sterilization is one of these mechanisms. You can argue about the ethical quandaries that these things imply, but they’re serving an essential interest of Chinese society. As for the woman herself, she lives there and she knows the law, and if she had abided by the law, this unfortunate incident wouldn’t have happened.
And again, on that same thread:
joan
Submitted on 2010/10/22 at 11:19 am
And if my comment “chills you to the bone”, it should, in the same way that looking at the Chernobyl disaster chills people who are concerned with safe nuclear energy, in a “that could have been us” sort of way. The example of China should be instructive to us. The Chinese people were unable or unwilling to change their breeding habits on their own and the government had to step in and take charge of things to prevent it from becoming a serious problem. By contrast, western societies have voluntarily stabilized their population growth rates, and so things like mandatory abortion are unnecessary.
I’d say you see the China issue in black and white, joan. You believe forced abortion in China is a positive thing. The rest of us do not.
They have been getting away with it forever…I read a great book about this “A Mother’s Ordeal” by Steven Mosher years ago.
Praying something will be done to end this…
I wish I could “like” Jespren’s comment more than once. This especially bears repeating:
China’s one child policy, which can not possibly be enforced without extreme human rights violations, is nothing but pure blackness.
Have any of the people touting “the right to choose whether or not to have or not have children is a fundamental human right” commented publicly about the horror that is happening in China?
The only way to make this atrocity into a “gray” situation is to spin your head around really fast until you scramble your brains.
Thank you Lrning. :) (and to the other 8 who ‘liked’ it)
As for the woman herself, she lives there and she knows the law, and if she had abided by the law, this unfortunate incident wouldn’t have happened.
This is Joan’s reaction to forced abortion in China.
Get help Joan. You are sick, sick, sick.
Jespren,
Excellent comment!! LIKE!
Uh, well, don’t women have to be born in the first place to take advantage of better educational and job opportunities?
Sydney, I am glad, for one, that you are happy about your blob! ;-)
The number of babies aborted in China in the last 40 years is estimated to be 400 MILLION.
F O U R H U N D R E D M I L L I O N H U M A N B E I N G S slaughtered, many just days, moments, before natural birth.
Christianity is blazing through China, in many ways spurred on by this horrible evil and I believe the Hand of God is stayed from judgement by this fiery revival.
I would NEVER - in no way – say that the forced murder of these precious brothers and sisters is good because it has led to the growth of the Church. I would cite the word of God which says, in ALL things He works for good.
joan, what would you say about a woman who was told by her husband to be home at 10:00 and she returned home at 10:05? She knew her husband’s rule, and if she had only abided by the rule, the unfortunate incident of her nose getting broken wouldn’t have happened.
joan blames the victims for being victims and wants to control victims. Not nice.
Women in China don’t get to choose what they are taught or where they will work. This is controlled too.
Listen, I and every other Pro-choice person I have ever known think this is just flat wrong. There is no choice in China’s policy. We want everyone to have their own choice in when they want to be a parent but, to destroy families and deny parenthood by force or government mandate is 100% wrong.
This is the opposite of what Pro-choice means and what we fight for.
Politically I am not sure how much power we should project at China given our own current situation with China, but the UN has no such restrictions and we could back their play without causing too much political backlash on the USA. It will take the rest of the world working with us to stop this crap and now is a very good time to try to make them change their policy because they want to be a player on the world stage with the rest of us and this should be part of the price of admission. They maybe large with a growing economy but they are still on the outside looking in just like all other communist countries in the world. Heck it is only in the last 2 decades that we “the west” have listened to anything Russia had to say and China see’s that too.
Wow I found a sock, anyone want to claim it? lol
It’s all yours, Biggz.
Forced abortion or elective abortion have the same outcome. A wounded mother and a dead baby.
And if you are for “CHOICE” then you will start supporting your nearest CPC. Like yesterday.
Wow I found a sock, anyone want to claim it? lol
Good comments Biggz – totally agree – “pro-choice” is not what China is. I mean, come on, that’s pretty rough – you have a second kid and they come and knock your house down?
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Carla: It’s all yours, Biggz.
I laughed so hard when you finished up that one post, Carla, with, “And you get to put a sock in it, Biggz.”
Just struck me as so dang funny.
Well now that’s not quite accurate.
Forced abortion leaves many wounded mothers.
Elective abortion leaves a few wounded mothers.
So does forced motherhood.
CPC’s don’t offer full choice.
Doug,
I don’t want to have to delete myself. :)
Well, Christi, that’s a different take on things. ;)
I agree – we cannot be the world’s “Police force.” But we don’t have troops in China due to the one-child policy, as far as I know. No way we can intervene, really, in all the places where “horrible” stuff is going on.
Christi, ok, um, wow. Do you have any idea what you are talking about? China is a Communist country. It’s not like America or Canada where you can ‘choose’ to live there. Their citizens not only have no ability to leave but most can only live within the country where they are assigtned by the government. Which is why demolishing their house is so devistating. In most circumstances those non-homeless people will have no ability to move in with relatives, friends, or to find a new house. They have to apply to the government for permission to relocate or rebuild, permission the government is likely to deny. In China the government decides where you live and where you work, and it’s not unusual for spouses to be stationed days apart, only able to see each other once or twice a year. Same thing with kids. The one-child policy is even worse than it seems on it’s face. In China many kids are taken to attend school away from the family. From the age of 5 or so their only child might attend a school several hours or days away, able to be visited only once a quarter and go home only once a year.
People caught trying to leave are jailed, frequently to be tortured or executed. Their families suffer too. The family members of someone who tries to leave can lose their job (all jobs are from the government and held at the governments pleasure), their savings, their possessions, or their homes, sometimes they are even jailed. Even given this there is a constant flood of illegals streaming into free countries from China. Some will live under the radar, some will be given assylum, and others will be deported back to China, straight to a jail cell. People don’t ‘choose’ to live in China anymore than they ‘chose’ to live in Iron Curtian Russia.
And even given that I have never heard anyone suggest we should land troops on China. But we give money to China, buy their goods, give them aid, and allow our companies to take advantage of their abysmal living conditions. Until China respects basic human rights there should be a complete emargo of ALL goods and services to or from China. Just like we did before Nixon decided to turn a blind eye to Moa’s horribly abuses by opening trade relations with them. Just like we still do with Cuba and North Korea and areas of war-torn Africa. China is a huge monstrosity, but it, like every socialist/communist country it is completely unsustainable. They had to let in foreign trade and a bit of capitalism to avoid a complete and utter colapse. Unfortunately since the free countries of the world are helping to prop it up this monstrosity has just enough success to remain firmly in control and to be, at this stage, unstopable by the populous. But if we and other countries withdrew our support it would topple in it’s own vaccum and the citizens would have a chance of revolution. Which won’t happen with China weilding complete control over it’s citizens backed by countries that should bloody know better!
Morning, Jespren.
Unfortunately since the free countries of the world are helping to prop it up this monstrosity has just enough success to remain firmly in control and to be, at this stage, unstoppable by the populous. But if we and other countries withdrew our support it would topple in it’s own vacuum and the citizens would have a chance of revolution.
It’s also unfortunate, IMO, that China has been propping us up by buying our gov’t debt. You will almost never see the US or other big debtor-nation taking strong action against those who finance them, because the consequences to us are so dire.
We are China’s biggest customer – I’m guessing, anyway, and they need our markets, bigtime. But I don’t see us as really “supporting” them. Frankly, they, India, Brazil, some of the former Russian republics – these countries are on the rise, economically, while we are in decline.
Doug, good morning. (Btw, I didn’t mean to bail on our previous conversation, I lost the link and couldn’t remember which post the debate was on! Maybe we’ll pick it back up some time)
That’s the irony of our current fincial situation. While China is busy buying billions in U.S. debt, we’re busy sending million to them in humanitarian aid (that doesn’t have to be paid back). We also send millions in aid to international organizations that are complicit in helping them enfore human rights violation (namely 1 child population control). Yes, our direct ‘support’ probably wouldn’t cause them to fall if it was removed. But our indirect support, as yes, we are a huge buyer of product and resources, and there are many U.S. companies offshoring jobs to China, very well might collapse them if it was withdrawn. And certainly if we, the European Union, and Japan all pulled their support, China would be left high and dry. Russia and other societ block countries can’t do enough to prop up China by themselves, even if they continued to support her. (In Russia for example the average household still doesn’t have a standard washer/dryer it will be decades still before Russia is done recovering from it’s foray into Communism, if it ever can, and is still an abysmally poor nation completely unable to support the glut of high end products that China produces that the U.S. is currently purchasing).
All that being said our economy is currently on the verge of collapse itself, and it’s own foray into socialistic entitlements has made our economy as is unsustainable as well. If we were to embargo China we’d collapse as well. Now, we have the law and government structure to rebound rapidly. Jobs would come back to U.S. shores, and we’d start to regain self-sufficiency, but no one in politics wants to be blamed for the (inevitable) collapse. So even if China started butching teenager rape victims in town square no one’s going to do anything. But we can still be rightly incensed by their human rights abuses, even if we as every day citizens are about as powerless to help as we are to change the weather.
I lost the link and couldn’t remember which post the debate was on! Maybe we’ll pick it back up some time.
No problem, Jespren. I couldn’t find that thread either, and I searched back into August… : /
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While China is busy buying billions in U.S. debt, we’re busy sending million to them in humanitarian aid (that doesn’t have to be paid back). We also send millions in aid to international organizations
I don’t know what to think about that. Is there some financial or political gain realized from it? Is it really worth it, overall?
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And certainly if we, the European Union, and Japan all pulled their support, China would be left high and dry. Russia and other societ block countries can’t do enough to prop up China by themselves, even if they continued to support her.
Our share of world markets has been declining, and the same for Japan and the EU. We are still the single largest consuming and producing country, but the trend is down. I question whether China would be hurt worse than we would, as they are a real producer of wealth now.
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All that being said our economy is currently on the verge of collapse itself, and it’s own foray into socialistic entitlements has made our economy as is unsustainable as well. If we were to embargo China we’d collapse as well. Now, we have the law and government structure to rebound rapidly. Jobs would come back to U.S. shores, and we’d start to regain self-sufficiency, but no one in politics wants to be blamed for the (inevitable) collapse.
Heh – I think 99% of those in Congress are blameworthy, there. I don’t think we are really “close to collapse,” though. Our deal with debt is bad, yes, but as a percentage of gross domestic product it’s nothing outlandish, and our interest payments as a percentage of federal revenue don’t argue for imminent collapse at all.
“We have the law and gov’t structure to rebound rapidly.” How would that really occur? We simply cannot compete with people making 50 cents or a Dollar an hour, almost no matter what. I think that isolationism and trade protectionism are bad deals, overall, for a country anyway, and for us it’d really, really be bad, since we need other countries to buy our debt. What I think is going to happen is that they’re going to quit doing it, at least as much, since it’s a losing trade for them – by the time the debt matures, they’ve lost more true value due to the devaluation of our currency than they gain from the current paltry interest rates.
So, we’re going to face higher interest rates at some point (not fun) – our gov’t cannot prevent that in the long run, especially if deficit-spending and “easy-money” policies on the part of the Federal Reserve Board are compromised – and the current political climate means they are. I don’t see the political will to allow US wages to fall to the point where it pays to put people back to work.
It’s all interconnected Doug. China is the largest producer and is thus gaining rapidly in power, but it doesn’t have internal buying power or citizen wealth to support internal trade, so if the international call for Chinese products dried up they would rapidly lose that power and international wealth. Their rise in power is dependant upon export markets. If major buying countries aren’t willing to import than the millions of factors churing out products for pennies on the dollar mean nothing. Likewise, if we weren trying to compete with job markets that pay pennies on the dollar our internal economy would rebound. In the 50’s the biggest private employer paid an starting wage of over $17. Today the biggest private employer (Walmart) pays less than $7 as a starting wage (nationwide average). America has enough landmass, resources, and people, as well as the private property capitalism legal system necessary to support ourself in a highly prosperous manner. Our wages aren’t ‘living wages’ precisely because we are trying to compete in a global market that exploits slave wages, not because our economy BY ITSELF is incapable of doing so. High tarifs (sp?) on imports, more trade leaving than coming, and self-sufficiency as a nation made us the most wealthy nation in history. ‘Free trade’, trade deficits, and reduced tarifts have done nothing but reduce our wealth and power.
And there is a big difference between ‘verge’ of collapse and ‘immenent’ collapse. We are on the verge of a collapse because if a single domino falls, if a single straw is added, everything could go. China stops purchasing our debt, active war/attack on us, natural disaster, food shortage, a collapse in the wrong country, any number of things could make our flagging economy go from limping to collapsed. But we’re not necessarily looking at an imenent collapse, it could happen next week, next month, next year, or next decade. But anytime you have an unsustainable system, and our current mixed socialistic/capitalistic system *is* unsustainable, you are on the ‘verge’ of a collaspe.
You could scarely do better, in the long run, than a strong isolationism and trade protectionism for the U.S. likewise you could scarely do worse than support global free trade.
Well hey other Doug. I certainly agree that things are interconnected – more than ever before. Sure, if China couldn’t sell to us, for example, that would hurt them terribly, but they still are more a “producing” country that we are, and in the long run that’s why I say we’d take more damage overall. I’m looking at not only our necessity of financing our gov’t, but our standard of living. You’re right that Chinese internal trade is much less, per capita, than ours is. But it doesn’t take much to sustain their lower standard of living. If we were in isolation, we’d be screwed for keeping ours. Energy, alone is enough to ensure that.
For what it’s worth, I think – no matter what happens – our standard of living is going down, now, which is quite a change from before, where the assumption was that not only that it wouldn’t go down, but that it would go up, essentially “forever.” A good part of it’s due to us “living beyond our means” in the past, building up debt because of it, and at some point we gotta pay the piper, so to speak.
You make a decent case for the “verge of collapse.” I grant you that it *could* happen fast. I just see very little likelihood of it, since it would come from other countries acting against what they see as their own best interest.
Lol! Sorry. My cell fills in my name and email automatically, but it also sometimes jumps my cusor about wildly, and sometime (as is obvious) without me realizing it filled over something!
So many of our allies are also on the verge of collapse, and many much more so than we, that I don’t necessarly think it would take someone working against their best interest to not prop us up, only being unable to do so. (The only EU country that is actually solvent right now is Germany) I’ll admit thoughi’m not really looking at it from a ‘will America collapse and lose super-power status’ but rather from ‘when and how will it happen’. I love my country. I’m a Christian first, a part of my family second, and an American third. Everything else is a distant fourth. But the Bible lists the super powers who are active in the last days, and this part of the world isn’t included. There is one from Asia, probably China, one from Eastern Europe, probably Russia, and one from Europe, probably the European Union or some amalgum of current European powers. But there isn’t anyone playing any sort of significant role from Africa, the Mediteranian, or the far West (or unknown lands). Right now America is still the primary millitary power in the world. The notion that any sort of significant multinational war could break out and we’d just sit back and watch it happen is laughable. Something *is* going to happen. I think, given that various possibilities for a countries demise, an economic collapse is preferable. Any war or natural disaster bad enough to kick us out of the power house is also going to lead to an economic collapse, so i’d rather deal with just the one. So I’m naturally inclined to take more stock in the “highest poverty rate since the government started keeping track in 1959” than in the ‘*this* time the socialistic spending bonanza by the government will work!’. (Do you know what the definition of insanity is? Trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results.)
Jespren: Lol! Sorry. My cell fills in my name and email automatically, but it also sometimes jumps my cusor about wildly, and sometime (as is obvious) without me realizing it filled over something!
Yeah – this site goes crazy sometimes.
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I agree that just trying the same thing over and over, without success, is fruitless. Like Homer Simpson getting shocked, trying a few things, then doing the same thing that got him shocked the first time.
There is obviously a lot of resistance to another/new socialistic spending bonanza right now, but in the end I wonder if that’s all that will be politically possible. Enough fatigue with what are seen as relatively “bad” economic times and the people want something else – even if it’s just a change from the last thing, even if the “new deal” never worked, really, before.
I too think “something *is* going to happen.” The real question is when. A debt the size of our federal gov’t’s is never paid off – it’s just eliminated one of two ways. Either by allowing deflation, which leads to defaulting on the debt, which goes hand-in-hand with the currency collapsing and a new currency appearing, *or* by continued deficit-spending, accepting devaluation of the currency, and basically “hyper-inlfating” the debt out of existence, i.e. “you’ll get your money but it will be worthless.” There, too, we’d get new money, after some very bad times.
I don’t see any political will to allow the first to happen. Even with the Tea Party, etc., I don’t think we as a people will settle for deflation. And the gov’t has never given any indication it would take it, either. More that they’ll “pay the debt, no matter what,” i.e. in the end the money’s value goes to zero.
Well, hyper inflation is certainly where the Federal Reserve is like to end us up at if they aren’t reigned in. They seem to think all problems can be solved by printing more money (which is why the government can only legally COIN money, it’s much harder to inflate a coined currency). Unfortunately hyper inflation (which is really just debt forgiveness when you look at other countries accepting it) won’t solve our debt problem, much of our foreign debt is (supposidly) backed by gold and is repayable on the exchange standard (not sure if that’s phrased correctly, meaning if our dollar goes down the amount we have to repay goes up). It is a ridiculous amount of debt, the numbers are staggering, and ultimately only a huge scale back of the government to something more suited to it’s Consitutional limits will be able to mend the problem without an inevitable collapse (that would likely remove us from the world stage too because the government simply wouldn’t be capable of galavanting around the globe), but I find that as about likely as the aformentioned controling the weather sooo…frankly I think the very best a realist can hope for is enough states will get tired of an over reaching federal government and sucede and the U.S.A. will just kind of desolve into city states (if it does it’s Eastern Oregon for me!). But I don’t find that very high up on the likely meter. I mean, local parents can’t even wrest control of their local school boards from political hacks intent on ignoring them. (Boy we get into random conversations)
Well, hyper inflation is certainly where the Federal Reserve is like to end us up at if they aren’t reigned in. They seem to think all problems can be solved by printing more money (which is why the government can only legally COIN money, it’s much harder to inflate a coined currency).
Jespren, no doubt, especially since the Fed is to a good extent a political animal, and are the politicians going to accept deflation? That would be a “no.”
As far as “printing money,” in effect, there is really no limit on it, other than Congress saying the debt can only go up so much…
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Unfortunately hyper inflation (which is really just debt forgiveness when you look at other countries accepting it) won’t solve our debt problem, much of our foreign debt is (supposidly) backed by gold and is repayable on the exchange standard (not sure if that’s phrased correctly
I think Nixon put the kibosh on that in 1971 – the Bretton Woods agreement – the link between the Dollar and gold was broken. The Federal Reserve Board can buy things, like US gov’t debt – the Treasury bill, bonds, notes, etc. you hear about. In exchange the Fed gives Federal Reserve Notes – and what’s that? Well, that’s our money, whether it’s actually printed on the special paper or just maintained as electronic information on computers.
Thus, money is “created out of nothing.” In theory the debt has to be repaid someday, which would make the whole thing a “zero-sum” game, i.e. the money would someday vanish and go to “money heaven,” just as it came from nothing. However, as long as the total amount of debt is increasing – which for the Federal gov’t has been the case for many decades – then new money is continually made “from thin air.”
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if our dollar goes down the amount we have to repay goes up.
No – if the value of the Dollar goes down, our debts on the Federal level – (all those debt instruments, i.e. bill, notes, bonds, etc., are denominated in Dollars) – go down in real terms as well. This is why it’s stupid for other enties to be financing us, if it’s on the basis of a straight “investment” – they are getting a paltry interest rate now, and the value of the Dollar is dropping faster than their stated rate of return.
If I’m paying you 2% per year in interest but the underlying security – Dollars in this case – are losing 3% in value year-over-year, you’re losing, overall.
The Japanese, Chinese, etc., would not be holding our debt if they weren’t “in the game,” so to speak, outside the mere investment aspect of it, i.e, they want to prop us up and keep us going so we can keep buying from them.
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Boy we get into random conversations.
;) Yeah, and I like to talk about it, argue about it, but down deep I am oh-so cynical that any real political settling of our debt problem is possible, let alone likely.