Abortion proponents equate vaginal ultrasound – not abortion – with rape?
Abortion proponents are going berserk over a bill in the Virginia General Assembly that would require abortionists to determine the gestational age of babies about to be aborted by ultrasound.
There is nothing in HB 462 that mandates the use of transvaginal ultrasound rather than abdominal ultrasound, but pro-aborts have swarmed around this possibility, comparing it to rape.
Early in a pregnancy - 4-8ish weeks depending on several factors, including the girth of the mother – a baby’s age cannot be ascertained by other than a transvaginal ultrasound.
And this has been determined necessary for the safety of mothers in Virginia based on previous disciplinary actions against abortionists for grossly misjudging a baby’s age:
- In 1999 the Virginia Board of Medicine disciplined abortionist Mi Yong Kim for beginning the abortion of a mother she believed was 8 weeks pregnant via pelvic exam, only to have to stop the abortion because the baby was much larger. A hospital ultrasound determined the baby was actually 26-4/7 weeks, and still alive. Kim performed a hysterotomy without further consulting the mother and delivered the dead baby, who weighed a little over 2 pounds, consistent with the measured gestational age.
- In 2006 the Virginia Board of Medicine suspended the license of abortionist Reffat K. Abofrekafor underestimating a preborn baby’s age on one occasion and missing a mass on another:
~ In January 2006 Abofreka began the abortion of a baby he thought was 12 weeks old by pelvic exam only to find the baby was much larger. The baby was later delivered alive at a hospital measuring 23-2/7 weeks but died.
~ In 2005 Abofreka performed no diagnostic tests whatsoever and began an abortion of a patient. When Abofreka could not get “a satisfactory amount of tissue during the procedure,” he wondered if this was instead an ectopic pregnancy and performed an ultrasound, whereupon discovering a cystic mass between the uterus and left ovary. At the hospital it was determined there was indeed a mass and also a 6-6/7 week old baby. Whether the baby lived or died is unknown.
Again, performing an ultrasound before an abortion is a safety issue as well as an informed consent issue.
Furthermore, do abortion proponents really want to “go there” on the topic of vaginal intrusion and rape?
If anything, it is an abortion that is comparable to rape. Abortion is an act of violence, both against the baby and her mother. Abortion is painful, bloody, and involves sharp instruments, certainly much more comparable to forcible rape than an innocuous ultrasound probe.
[HT: Victoria Cobb, president of The Family Foundation for disciplinary action pdfs; top grahpic via the Maddow blog]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Well..pro-aborts aren’t known for using LOGIC. An ultrasound is invasive….but an abortion ISN’T????
But wouldn’t the ultrasound prove that it was just a blob of cells and shut us up?
I’m thinking about ectopic pregnancies too. Quite a few women in the news had abortions only to almost (or actually) die when their undiagnosed ectopic pregnancies ruptured.
Ultrasound just seems like common sense to me. Like good medicine. But then we know how abortionists hate to practice good medicine.
I am deeply offended at the way the rape card gets tossed around. If you feel your doctor isn’t being appropriate that’s one thing, but sometimes a diagnostic tool is just a diagnostic tool. They are also used for tracking ovarian cysts.
You know, back in the olden times, doctors sometimes did something called “exploratory surgery.” Hello, abortioneers, that is a little antiquated now. Maybe we can use technology to do more than post on our twitter accounts, hmm?
This post also makes good points about women not realizing or not being honest about the possible gestational age of their fetus. I know how women in a crisis pregnancy can try to rationalize away their first missed period.
You know, I was raped three years ago and I find one of the most “triggering” and emotionally difficult things to deal with the flippant way the word “rape” gets tossed around.
This is one of those times…
Don’t think abortioneers like accountability any more than good medicine, which abortion isn’t. This reminds me of numerous accounts I’ve read of abortionists intentionally misrepresenting the gestational age of their targets to up the price of killing them; the farther along, the higher the price.
And then there are the documented accounts of false pregnancy test results to sell abortion to women who aren’t even pregnant.
And that incident several years back where a woman was told in a now defunct (YAY!) Alabama mill that she was 7 weeks along so she could be given RU 486 but it turned out that she was more like 5 months; she ended up driving herself to the ER with her dead baby’s macerated head protruding from her vagina…and the borts talk about the lifers traumatizing women.
I went over to Rhrealitycheck.org and saw this gem by Ms. Jacobson:
———-
Jodi Jacobson It is rapeFebruary 16, 2012 – 6:49pm
Its not a framing. It is calling it what it is… forced penetration with an instrument. this is rape. the government is forcing women to undergo a medically unnecessary procedure agains their will to obtain a legal medical procedure.
It is rape. I don’t know why we are afraid to call it what it is.
———-
It’s almost infuriating enough to make me want to create another name just to call her out on such an absolutely ridiculous, and very ridiculous, statement.
Um, during an abortion isn’t an instrument forced into the uterus, which is closed to protect the growing baby? Couldn’t this be termed a form of rape, too?
“If anything, it is an abortion that is comparable to rape.”
Uh huh. A medical procedure that you have paid a physician to perform on you is totally just like being forcibly sexually violated. That’s the dumbest, most specious stretch of logic that I’ve seen on this site since the last time I read something that “pro-life Tokyo Rose” wrote.
BTW, since the real motivation for this recent spate of ultrasound laws is really just to guilt trip a woman into keeping an unwanted pregnancy, you might be interested to know that doesn’t even work:
http://www.americanindependent.com/210411/ongoing-study-shows-ultrasounds-do-not-have-direct-impact-on-abortion-decision
Oh well. Onward to the next stupid, ham-handed, and utterly transparent ploy to manipulate vulnerable pregnant women into making bad decisions.
I’ve been blogging about this too. Amazing how they applaud the use of this same technology in ultrasound guided abortions. This is yet another example of prochoice exploiting rape victims for the agenda. They’re just convenient political tools to proaborts. Very prowoman, aren’t they?
Oh, good Lord. Not this transvaginal ultrasound=rape nonsense again.
Kate,
I’m so sorry :( But you’re right. It’s completely disrespectful to women who have actually been raped. And I thought pro-aborts were supposed to be “pro-woman”.
Phillymiss,
Exactly. The stupidity is truly mind-boggling.
How? HOW? How do you underestimate ages from 8 weeks to 26 weeks? Plus, I always thought U/S was already a required pre-op procedure?? At least on behalf of the doctor.
so if a woman says stop putting the wand in me, the tech will continue? And if she is in the abortionist’s clinic, will they also put something in the vagina to help or perform the abortion? Hello??
Ultra sound screening is not rape … it’s the people who SELL or promote abortion that are crying foul. Why? because it reminds the woman of what (or WHO) we are dealing with – a human child.
This is why abortion clinics do NOT want people to bring their children in the waiting room for appointments. It’s a plain reminder of what IS – a living human at exactly the stage they are supposed to be – and with ultra sound, a woman sees that her unborn is living, developing, exactly as they should be at that stage.
I thought that this was supposed to be about women’s health…. An Ultrasound is information about the reality of the physical situation at that very moment. Sorry – information is not rape, even for abortion proponents.
What about your standard, every-day gyno exam? Your doctor inserts his/her fingers AND a speculum inside you?
That’s “invasive”. Do “abortion proponents” feel “raped” every time they get a pap smear?
Like my grandmother used to say “That’s gagging at a gnat and swallowing a camel”!
I’ve seen my dental x-rays but didn’t feel guilty having my wisdom tooth removed.
My friend saw the images of her knee before it was operated on, and she didn’t feel guilty having the surgery.
Joan, why on earth would a woman be made to feel guilty for having the contents of her uterus removed? Joan, tell us please, WHY would any woman at all feel bad because she sees what the contents are?
Typical….. But then again, I’ve heard many claim that not allowing abortion is also akin to rape – “forced motherhood”. It seems for those who are pro-choice, anything that they see that infringes on “women’s reproductive rights” (or rather, anti-reproductive rights) is pretty much rape.
Joan, good grief woman! You cannot be this slow to connect the dots. Your baby-killing buddies are saying that a vaginal ultrasound probe is like RAPE yet fail to see how an abortion could be construed the same, if not more so? You poo-poo the idea that an abortion is like rape when its a “medical procedure” yet what is an ultrasound if not a medical procedure? Is the doctor inserting a vaginal ultrasound probe for his own sexual jollies or to hurt the woman? Or is he doing it to ascertain that
a) she is really pregnant
b) the baby is in the womb and not in her tubes
c) how big the baby is so he can determine what method he must use to kill the baby
Really Joan. Quit being so daft. We get that you’re REALLY into baby killing, but are you saying you don’t women to have good medical care why they’re killing their babies? Are you saying you want abortionists blindly charging into the ‘procedure” without a clue as to how far along the woman is? Boy, you pro-aborts are all about good medicine aren’t you? Or maybe you’re just full of crap when you hem and haw about the “back alley” days. Seems like you want “back alley” medicine with legal abortion when you fight the most basic guidelines of common sense medical care.
And just think – a woman can go to a pregnancy center and get her ultrasound for free.
At our local PP, you can’t have an ultrasound UNLESS you are having an abortion. It’s part of the fee. If you change your mind about your abortion – PP will charge you for it – even going so far that a client, who changed her mind about aborting her baby, was told – sign this paper demanding payment, or ‘we will come after you and ruin your credit!’
In another case, a woman who brought her pregnant 16 year old daughter in for an ultrasound, PP said – come right in! And then proceeded to try to trick her into signing away her rights and wanted to perform an abortion. PP then divulged that they do not perform ultrasounds on women who are keeping their pregnancy going – ONLY to those who will abort.
Needless to say — they both came out, and the Grand-mom said ‘Not to MY grandbaby!!’ and proceeded to tell us their story. Can anyone say Chutzpah??
PP is not about women’s health – it’s all about the money and the dedication toward abortion.
“Joan, why on earth would a woman be made to feel guilty for having the contents of her uterus removed? Joan, tell us please, WHY would any woman at all feel bad because she sees what the contents are?”
That’s an excellent question, ninek. Unfortunately, I am not the person to answer it. You may instead want to ask the moronic backwater state legislators who keep pushing these demonstrably ineffective laws, because as the link in my last post explains, women clearly aren’t feeling so guilty upon viewing unwanted ultrasounds that they decide not to have an abortion. That’s merely the intention behind the laws. Which, of course, is patronizing and offensive to anyone who doesn’t much care for the idea of their elected officials attempting to manipulate their emotions (and thus actions) by forcing them to undergo unnecessary procedures.
“You poo-poo the idea that an abortion is like rape when its a “medical procedure” yet what is an ultrasound if not a medical procedure?”
Are you (and the other people here trying to pursue this beyond idiotic comparison) really this obtuse, Sydney? Let’s walk through this very slowly here. What is it that defines rape? Is it the insertion of a foreign object into the vagina or anus? No, otherwise all sex would be rape. Rape is rape by virtue of the fact that it is unconsenting. A woman who has arranged to have an abortion has, ipso facto, consented to it.
do these spoiled brat pro aborts ever stop complaining? gah they just dont want to know that its really a baby! all they do is whine complain and bi*ch! im soooooo sick of them! shut up already. what do they want? 8000 dead babies a day?
these women who complain and want more and more abortion rights………to second what xalasie said…it is so very hard not to hate them!
Sorry, Joan, you will not get off that easy. YOU came here and commented to US that it’s merely a ploy to make women feel guilty. Stop being such a wimp and ANSWER THE QUESTION. If there’s nothing wrong with destroying the contents of the uterus, WHY DO YOU ACCUSE US OF TRYING TO MAKE WOMEN FEEL GUILTY???
why complicate something so simple? its a baby and when you have an abortion you are killing your baby. you say womens healthcare and reproductive rights are under attack? how so? abortion has been legal for 40 friggin years…you guys are WINNING…as charlie sheen would say and darn you ( i wanted to use another word ) how has abortion helped society? how? we still have over crowded prisons. we still have child abuse. we still have women having kids with different men who leave them stranded and on welfare.. what has changed?
That Maddow twit reported on this topic as well. And as goes without mention, she failed to report that vaginal ultrasounds were not required but were a necessity. In fact, she reported the exact opposite, that they were required without reporting about their necessity. Does this kind of politiking count as a reporting? Do journalist have a code of ethics?
I’ve twice paid a doctor to perform a D&C on me following a miscarriage (NOT a forced abortion). The positioning the first time really did bring back rape flashbacks for me. What a horrible, UNempowering procedure. The second time I asked to be put out so I didn’t have to risk flashbacks again. Yuck.
I agree with Ninek. Abortion proponents- what’s so scary or weird about ultrasounds? Don’t you women want to know what’s happening? Common sense medicine.
NAME ONE PROBLEM ABORTION Has solved????? aside from a rising death toll.
No… the ultrasound thing doesn’t sound like rape to me. If you want to get a breast augmentation done, doesn’t the doc have to check out your breasts and make sure everything is medically okay before going ahead with surgery? Would that be considered forcible sexual abuse then? If a woman consents to an abortion procedure, then she has to consent to examinations that come with it. She definitely has the right to not consent at all, just like everyone has the right to turn down any medical procedure. It might mean that she doesn’t get the abortion if she doesn’t want to consent to the ultrasound, but that would be no different than me not being able to obtain a medical procedure if I refused to consent to whatever examination was required. No one is tying women down and forcing them them to have the ultrasound, that WOULD be a form of rape.
Honestly, it’s absolutely rude to those of us who are survivors of sexual assault to marginalize the pain and trauma of forcible sex by comparing it to having to consent to an annoying medical procedure in order to get an abortion. I can’t stand it when people use “rape” to describe things that are not remotely comparable.
“If there’s nothing wrong with destroying the contents of the uterus, WHY DO YOU ACCUSE US OF TRYING TO MAKE WOMEN FEEL GUILTY???”
Because you explicitly are?
Is this “act like a totally obtuse moron day” and I missed the memo?
Your “argument” here is so utterly silly, I can’t believe you’re seriously pursuing it. It would be like a PETA supporter demanding to know why, if there is nothing wrong with eating meat, anyone would possibly accuse them of trying to make people feel guilty for eating meat when they run some tearjerker ad complaining about the horrible conditions of slaughterhouses.
“I agree with Ninek. Abortion proponents- what’s so scary or weird about ultrasounds?”
Nothing is scary or weird about ultrasounds, when voluntarily undergone, but that should be a decision made between patient and doctor. Why should the medical opinion of the presiding physician be directly overruled and nullified by legislative decree?
Yes, Joan. I want an answer too. If the ultrasound is there to provide valuable information, and it does just that, and we TRUST women with information, why is it that you feel added information is so threatening?
Give me another medical situation where it’s a life and death decision, and you wouldn’t WANT more information?
“Why should the medical opinion of the presiding physician be directly overruled and nullified by legislative decree?”
I dunno, joan. Why should there be any laws governing healthcare at all, in that case? Why do we have medical ethics boards and patient’s rights laws, malpractice insurance, etc? Could it be that physicians are humans to, with corruption, greed and malice just like the rest of the population, and need to be regulated for the safety of all in some cases?
id feel raped after an abortion. most abortionists are men. they think of yor wombs as goldmines. when will it sink in?
“No… the ultrasound thing doesn’t sound like rape to me. If you want to get a breast augmentation done, doesn’t the doc have to check out your breasts and make sure everything is medically okay before going ahead with surgery? Would that be considered forcible sexual abuse then? If a woman consents to an abortion procedure, then she has to consent to examinations that come with it. She definitely has the right to not consent at all, just like everyone has the right to turn down any medical procedure.”
I don’t think this requirement is perfectly analogous to rape myself. It would be more akin to passing a law requiring a woman to offer herself sexually to her doctor before she can have some procedure done, and then saying, hey, if you don’t want to consent to sex in this particular instance, you can just go without that surgery. It wouldn’t be rape, per se, but it would be the intrusive result of unethical legislative coercion for no compelling medical reason.
“Yes, Joan. I want an answer too. If the ultrasound is there to provide valuable information, and it does just that, and we TRUST women with information, why is it that you feel added information is so threatening?
Give me another medical situation where it’s a life and death decision, and you wouldn’t WANT more information?”
You continue to intentionally ignore the difference between medically pertinent and medically superfluous information. Should a doctor be required to read the day’s stock quotes to you before performing a triple bypass? Why not? It’s just information. Why wouldn’t you want more information?
“I dunno, joan. Why should there be any laws governing healthcare at all, in that case? Why do we have medical ethics boards and patient’s rights laws, malpractice insurance, etc? Could it be that physicians are humans to, with corruption, greed and malice just like the rest of the population, and need to be regulated for the safety of all in some cases?”
Of course there are exceptions where physicians are strictly regulated, but only for good reasons and for the interests of their patients. This legislation has no purpose whatsoever except to attempt to manipulate women into not having abortions.
“I don’t think this requirement is perfectly analogous to rape myself. It would be more akin to passing a law requiring a woman to offer herself sexually to her doctor before she can have some procedure done, and then saying, hey, if you don’t want to consent to sex in this particular instance, you can just go without that surgery. It wouldn’t be rape, per se, but it would be the intrusive result of unethical legislative coercion for no compelling medical reason.”
Uh huh. Yeah, no. Again, should I be able to obtain whatever procedure I want, but refuse any required exams? And other people have pointed out that there are valid medical reasons for performing an ultrasound before an abortion. In fact, for some reason I was under the impression that most of the time the abortion doctor did an ultrasound anyway. I think that the real problem pro-choicers have with this law isn’t the violation, it’s the requirement that the woman see the ultrasound pictures.
What do you call a person who repeatedly wants you to accept their viewpoint that a fetus is not a human person, and continues to force their viewpoint upon you against all scientific understanding of human embryology, and, against a literal understanding of the words to the Constitution which states that everyone has a right to life?
Is that, at least, a form of mental abuse?
An ultrasound should be pre-op procedure for any abortion. Vaginal ultrasounds are no more invasive than the abortion would be (let’s be honest here) and even medical abortions are dependent on gestational age. GA can be miscalculated EASILY (I’ve seen it in the clinic and ER SEVERAL TIMES) and it’s important for the safety of women that they get the abortion appropriate for their gestational age. As misguided as it seems coming from “prolifers”, it’s also offensive to compare this with rape since ultrasounds are common assessments of pregnancy and are used in any ob/gyn workup, especially pre-op, and consenting to the procedure of abortion consents to the pre-op workup per the paperwork. Nobody is tying women down and forcing transvaginal ultrasounds on them. I’ve seen my share of rape victims and calling this rape is just hyperbolic politics.
“Uh huh. Yeah, no. Again, should I be able to obtain whatever procedure I want, but refuse any required exams? And other people have pointed out that there are valid medical reasons for performing an ultrasound before an abortion.”
In the 40-plus states without mandatory ultrasound laws on the books, performing an ultrasound before an abortion is left up to the discretion of the presiding doctor, as it should be. And even if you could somehow make a compelling case for why an act of legislation is needed to ensure that an ultrasound is performed before every single abortion, there is absolutely no good reason whatsoever that doctors should be required to show it to the mother. This, again, brings up the matter of legislative intent: these laws are intended to manipulate the emotions and actions of pregnant women. It’s a craven, underhanded way of attempting to frustrate the ability of women to have an abortion.
How is the age of your baby or the fact that you may have an ectopic pregnancy “MEDICALLY SUPERFLOUOUS”, exactly?
Joan, what if the pregnant woman has been lied to by her parents, boyfriends, and doctor about the reality of an abortion? Isn’t it important that she know exactly what she’s doing?
“there is absolutely no good reason whatsoever that doctors should be required to show it to the mother.”
Per the bill:
ThequalifiedmedicalprofessionalperformingfetalultrasoundimagingpursuanttosubsectionB
33shallofferthewomananopportunitytoviewandreceiveaprintedcopyoftheultrasoundimageand
34hearauscultationoffetalhearttoneandshallobtainfromthewomanwrittencertificationthatthis
35opportunitywasofferedandwhetherornotitwasaccepted.Aprintedcopyoftheultrasoundimage
36shallbemaintainedinthewoman’smedicalrecordatthefacilitywheretheabortionistobeperformed
37forthelongerof(i)sevenyearsor(ii)theextentrequiredbyapplicablefederalorstatelaw.
The woman is OFFERED and may REFUSE to see the image.
Onward to the next stupid, ham-handed, and utterly transparent ploy to manipulate vulnerable pregnant women into making bad decisions.
And thanks for reducing the children of people here who have weathered crisis pregnancies to birth their children rather than kill them to “bad decisions”. I know all you guys love to tell me on Twitter how I had better watch out, because my daughter might grow up to side with you guys…but somehow…when time after time after time you guys show how little value her life has to you all…I just don’t see it happening. ^_^
Ahhh sorry about the last post. Anybody know how to fix it?? I intended it to be readable.
If anything, it is an abortion that is comparable to rape. Abortion is an act of violence, both against the baby and her mother. Abortion is painful, bloody, and involves sharp instruments, certainly much more comparable to forcible rape than an innocuous ultrasound probe.
Even if we accept your contention that rape has nothing to do with consent,* not all abortions involve sharp instruments. That’s why some women take RU-486: because it is non-invasive.
* I don’t accept that contention; I just realize it’s pointless to engage in the discussion.
“Joan, what if the pregnant woman has been lied to by her parents, boyfriends, and doctor about the reality of an abortion? Isn’t it important that she know exactly what she’s doing?”
In what sense? The philosophical or moral implications? She already knows what the purpose of abortion is, obviously–to terminate her unwanted pregnancy. As far as I’m concerned, if it’s important for her to fully understand every conceivable moral dimension of her decision, then that’s legwork she’s going to have to do on her own. You wouldn’t demand that doctors brief every single blood transfusion patient of the fact that the Jehovah’s Witnesses considers it a deeply immoral procedure.
Um, well, she might have been told it was a clump of cells, when clearly it’s not.
now that women will be performing home abortions watch Planned Parentless start complaining that women arent having suction abortions or they arent coming in for a D and E?
Joan,
And it’s left up to the ‘discretion of the taxpayers’ as to whether we”ll fund abortions or not-as it should be. That’s how equality works. Leaving your child’s fate up to the discretion of the abortionist is ceding control of your own fate and is the antithesis of empowerment. Thank you for identifying the foundation of Roe v. Wade, which transfers all authority to the abortionist and strips it from the woman. What rubes proaborts are.
“An ultrasound should be pre-op procedure for any abortion.”
And yet it never has been before in the cases of very early abortions. A TV ultrasound is NOT a free procedure. Neither government legislators nor fetus crusaders are the ones who should get to decide what is and is not medically necessary in ANY case. DOCTORS should get to decide whether a TV ultrasound is necessary, not you and not the government of the Commonwealth of Virginia or any other state.
“Vaginal ultrasounds are no more invasive than the abortion would be”
IT DOES NOT MATTER what is and is not more invasive. What matters is whether the pregnant woman WANTS a particular procedure. In this instance a body of government is decreeing that a medical procedure be performed, regardless of necessity, and regardless of will.
This would be the same as if you went in to an ENT and he shoved the tongue depresser inside your vagina whether you wanted it or not because the government told him he has to. You were about to let him shove it in your mouth so what are you complaining about? You were already about to let him violate you anyway, you dirty slut.
“Uh huh. Yeah, no. Again, should I be able to obtain whatever procedure I want, but refuse any required exams?”
YES! Yes you should! Medical care is not something that should be forced by power of law on anyone! What part of that don’t you understand? Or, maybe the next time you go into the doctor for your regular yearly male exam, he should perform a colonoscopy on you whether you want one or not.
Never in my life have I seen the radical wing of the Republican party show themselves the way they have been lately; never in my wildest dreams did I believe they could be so unbelievably hateful, controlling, reckless, irresponsible, disgusting, judgmental, and sick. I have had a transvaginal ultrasound. This is NOT a cheap procedure, it is NOT a procedure that needs to be done in every case of pregnancy, and it is NOT a procedure that should be forced on women seeking LEGAL medical care under the false guise of “information.” The flow of information and what information is necessary should be determined SOLELY by doctors. What goes inside a woman and why is NOT, and never will be, up to you.
“An ultrasound should be pre-op procedure for any abortion.”
And yet it never has been before in the cases of very early abortions. A TV ultrasound is NOT a free procedure nor is it a simple one. Neither government legislators nor fetus crusaders are the ones who should get to decide what is and is not medically necessary in ANY case. DOCTORS should get to decide whether a TV ultrasound is necessary, not you and not the government of the Commonwealth of Virginia or any other state. I don’t see states passing laws on what procedures men have to endure before receiving medical care, and I fail to see, why in a drowning economy, this needs a bill in a state senate.
“Vaginal ultrasounds are no more invasive than the abortion would be”
IT DOES NOT MATTER what is and is not more invasive. What matters is whether the pregnant woman WANTS a particular procedure. In this instance a body of government is decreeing that a medical procedure MUST be performed, regardless of necessity, and regardless of will.
This would be the same as if you went in to an ENT and he shoved the tongue depresser inside your vagina whether you wanted it or not because the government told him he has to. You were about to let him shove it in your mouth so what are you complaining about? You were already about to let him violate you anyway, you dirty slut. Don’t you want more information???
“Uh huh. Yeah, no. Again, should I be able to obtain whatever procedure I want, but refuse any required exams?”
YES! Yes you should! Medical care is not something that should be forced by power of law on anyone! What part of that don’t you understand? Or, maybe the next time you go into the doctor for your regular yearly male exam, he should perform a colonoscopy on you whether you want one or not.
Never in my life have I seen the radical wing of the Republican party show themselves the way they have been lately; never in my wildest dreams did I believe they could be so unbelievably hateful, controlling, reckless, irresponsible, disgusting, judgmental, backward, and sick. I have had a transvaginal ultrasound. This is NOT a cheap procedure, it HURTS, it is NOT a procedure that needs to be done in every case of pregnancy, and it is NOT a procedure that should be forced on women as a punishment for seeking LEGAL medical care under the false guise of “information.” The flow of information and what information is necessary should be determined SOLELY by doctors. What goes inside a woman and why is NOT, and never will be, up to you.
“YES! Yes you should! Medical care is not something that should be forced by power of law on anyone! What part of that don’t you understand? Or, maybe the next time you go into the doctor for your regular yearly male exam, he should perform a colonoscopy on you whether you want one or not.”
That… is a horrible analogy. A better analogy is if I wanted to have an elective surgery to have benign cysts from the colon, and for some reason I refused to consent to the colonoscopy. Refusal to consent to the colonoscopy would mean that I could be denied the surgery, yes? For valid reasons. I wouldn’t be “forced” to undergo it, I would just have to undergo it if I wanted my elective procedure. No one would be tying me down at the doctor’s office and forcing it on me. Again, no one is tying women down and forcing transvaginal ultrasounds. They are requiring ultrasounds before an elective procedure.
Funny how it’s not invasive when an abortionist is using it to locate and tear off fetal parts, apostate. All good then, right? Yeah, that’s basic health care when you have to reassemble body parts afterward. Stop your prude shaming. Some of us don’t want to be reckless revolving doors. We just don’t hate ourselves enough to be penetrated by whoever in the name of empowerment. Shame on us. (LOL)
apostate we are not radical…..and even if you think we are stop asking the radicals to pay for your dead babies!
Heather,
Do it yourself, remote abortions are low overhead and high profit for PP. Who cares if something goes wrong? They’re not in the business of helping women-they’re in it for profits.
hey apostate go to NOW and NARAL and make sure you ask that ONLY a liberal pay for your abortions cuz this nurse dont wanna flip your bill!
But little A, the woman can say no. It’s just another option. Options (ie CHOICES) are good!!!When she looks at the ultrasound (which cannot lie), she might change her mind. And that’s good, because she has a right to all the info and she has a right to change her mind.
The only issue here is that the abortionist does not naturally WANT to show the woman the ultrasound, because his revenue will walk out the door. It is NOT in his best interest. Information is good. Don’t you trust women?
MPCQ…….love your posts!
“Funny how it’s not invasive when an abortionist is using it to locate and tear off fetal parts, apostate.”
Yeah, funny how CONSENT is what makes something not and not rape. You’re not just deliberately obtuse, you’re the worst kind of hatemonger. Anyone who wants to use the power of government to mandate medically unnecessary and unwanted internal probes, in violation of already established medical ethics as a condition of accessing legal heathcare is someone who can only be defined as a sociopath. Oh, and you all can forget about that “smaller less invasive government” label while you’re at it. I guess this is why Ted Bundy was a Republican.
http://www.americanindependent.com/211906/virginia-ultrasound-bill-at-odds-with-medical-standards
my husband and i are thinking about having another baby. NONE of my kids were ever blobs of tissue. they were my sons and daughters in my womb. my body my baby. pro aborts live in pretend land. or denial. as cher said in MOONSTRUCK snap out of it!
Oh, little a. Bless your heart. There’s plenty of hate left over in the bloody baby parts bucket!!! I’m sure those little ones didn’t get to say yes or no when they were probed to death.
It sounds as if your abortion were the highlight of your life.
Bless your heart.
“Funny how it’s not invasive when an abortionist is using it to locate and tear off fetal parts, apostate.”
Yeah, funny how CONSENT is what makes something not rape. You’re not just deliberately obtuse, you’re the worst kind of hatemonger. Anyone who wants to use the power of government to mandate medically unnecessary and unwanted internal probes, in violation of already established medical ethics as a condition of accessing legal heathcare is someone who can only be defined as a sociopath. Oh, and you all can forget about that “smaller less invasive government” label while you’re at it. No wonder Ted Bundy was a Republican.
http://www.americanindependent.com/211906/virginia-ultrasound-bill-at-odds-with-medical-standards
“Funny how it’s not invasive when an abortionist is using it to locate and tear off fetal parts, apostate.”
Yeah it sure is funny how CONSENT is what makes something not rape. Go figure. I am not so kind as to define you people as deliberately obtuse. You’re sick. It’s only the party of Ted Bundy that thinks that requiring a medically unnecessary and unwanted procedure, in total violation of medical standards already in place, as punishment for accessing legal healthcare, is somehow acceptable. That it’s OK because abortions are “elective.” As if that makes violating someone with a probe acceptable.
Anyone who wants to use the power of government to mandate medically unnecessary abortions-which 99 percent of them are-just might be an LWNJ and the worst kind of hatemonger there is-not even enough tolerance to tolerate their own children for nine months in the womb.
“It sounds as if your abortion were the highlight of your life.”
I’ve never had an abortion but contrary to your wishes I would not feel guilty about it if I did. It’s only the church ladies who feel guilty about their abortions.
And I guess that’s why the KKK was founded by democrats.
”DOCTORS should get to decide whether a TV ultrasound is necessary, not you and not the government of the Commonwealth of Virginia or any other state.”
I am a medical provider. As long as the woman is not forced to look at the ultrasound, determining gestational age is important to determining the best abortion procedure for the woman. Naegel’s Rule and physical exams can only do so much, seriously. There are already a lot of regulations regarding medical procedures, and while the republicans may seem misguided by assigning it a “pro-life” bill, I think that determining GA can only help women in this case. Again, she can always refuse. Nobody is making her. Hence, the horrible rape analogy. I think you need to stop looking at the bill in the way our divisive culture asks us to and really think about how it can help women’s heath.
“This would be the same as if you went in to an ENT and he shoved the tongue depresser inside your vagina whether you wanted it or not because the government told him he has to. You were about to let him shove it in your mouth so what are you complaining about? ”
No, but if I wanted an ENT surgery, I would want his workup to be thorough. Because an ENT surgery has nothing to do with my uterus I would not expect a uterine evaluation. However if I needed a tympanogram, or a laryngoscopy, or some other form of pre-op evaluation or imaging before the procedure, then if I wanted to do the surgery I would consent. Because it’s a safety issue. It still is surgery. And yes he may look in my throat with a tongue depressor, or want to order the evaluation but if I asked him not to and decided to leave, he would be required to obey my request, per patient’s rights.
ooooooh yeah lets bring up ted bundy. lol yeah like we condone killing women. a serial killer is a serial killer…..go visit the site “CEMETERY OF CHOICE” and see how many women died from legal abortions. your wonderful abortionists killed them all. they are dead and they are never coming back! many were moms so now their kids are left with NO MOTHERS. but lets divert to ted bundy:/
Like I said, Little a. Bless your heart.
Better a church lady that….well, whatever that is that you..are.
LOL Heather. We can’t really be wimmenz ‘less we can kill! We iz jes perpetual victims of da MAN! *faint*
And they wonder why we don’t take them seriously? Gotta run, battle on my good peeps.
It bears repeating:
Sometimes a diagnostic tool is just a diagnostic tool.
Unless you’d prefer a butcher perform the d&c on a woman with an ectopic pregnancy?
a church lady? lol is that so? nah it doesnt matter if you go to church or not……I know a lot of girls who dont go to church and feel guilty about their abortions.
“determining gestational age is important to determining the best abortion procedure for the woman”
No one disputes that. What is in dispute is that the state of Virginia has now made them necessary in ALL cases regardless of whether a doctor determines it to be necessary or not, and that there is no option to opt out if a woman wants an abortion, even in cases where the pregnancy is early and RU486 can be taken, and she must pay for the procedure. Even in cases of rape. Even in cases where gestational age can be determined by other means. Not all procedures are necessary and as a provider you should know good and well what is involved in a transvaginal ultrasound. It is invasive, it is uncomfortable, it is expensive, it is NOT a tool that should be used as a pro-life propaganda crusade.
Doctors are the ones who should determine what information is necessary and what procedures are necessary to obtain that information, not government.
“Again, she can always refuse. Nobody is making her. Hence, the horrible rape analogy.”
She can’t refuse if she wants the abortion, not anymore, not in Virginia – at least, until the courts overturn it. An even better analogy would be workplace quid pro quo, which is also WRONG!
“then if I wanted to do the surgery I would consent. Because it’s a safety issue.”
Well, that’s all fine that YOU would consent, because you definately have the power NOT to. In this case there was no amendment to the bill to give women that power. IE the government knows what women need better than the women themselves or their doctors.
“Sometimes a diagnostic tool is just a diagnostic tool.”
Unless it’s something the Republican party thinks it can use as a political football. Why are there no other bills in any other Congress about what medical “diagnostic tools” _should_ be necessary? Why is there nothing in any state about men being required to have a prostate exam before obtaining Viagra?
Because Viagra doesn’t involve killing another human being you nonce. Try to keep up.
“Well, that’s all fine that YOU would consent, because you definately have the power NOT to. In this case there was no amendment to the bill to give women that power. IE the government knows what women need better than the women themselves or their doctors.”
Are you deliberately ignoring the difference between a woman actually being forced to have the ultrasound, unable to deny it, and a woman knowing that if she wants an elective procedure done she will have to have an ultrasound along with it? She can refuse to have the procedure, she isn’t forced to have anything done. She can walk away, like all of us can if we don’t like the diagnostics that go along with an elective medical procedure.
What other diagnostic tests do you think that people should have the right to refuse while demanding that the procedure they are meant to make safer still be done.
And seriously, have you ever been raped? Knowing that an unpleasant diagnostic tool is part of an elective medical procedure, and still choosing to undergo that procedure, is IN NO WAY comparable to having sex forced or coerced on you that you don’t want and can’t/are scared to stop. Ffs.
Oh look, another misleading headline and dancing around the maypole in an attempt to distract from the truth.
“Abortion proponents equate vaginal ultrasound – not abortion – with rape?” – rape is all about consent. Some medical procedures are invasive. When I consent to a colonoscopy I am not being raped. When a woman consents to an abortion she is not being raped. When someone insists on inserting a probe when she doesn’t want it, that is tantamount to rape.
You seem quite happy for it to be mandated that medicos perform certain procedures which may not be required or, more importantly, requested by a patient. Yet you squawk if a pharmicist is told they can’t refuse to dispense legal and widely used medications because of their personal beliefs. Or if medical staff are instructed to care for pre or post abortive women.
We all know that the only purpose of regulations such as this one is to make obtaining an abortion as inconvenient, complex and time consuming as possible. And that’s the truth.
“Because Viagra doesn’t involve killing another human being you nonce.”
Wow so men aren’t required to get women pregnant? Seems to me that men’s pee-pee pills have at least a tangential relationship to pregnancy, and after all, these dirty slutty men shouldn’t be enjoying sex, unless it’s for procreative purposes, and how do we know they’ll only use the Viagra on their wives?
What a maroon.
“She can refuse to have the procedure, she isn’t forced to have anything done. She can walk away, like all of us can if we don’t like the diagnostics that go along with an elective medical procedure.”
Sure, so I guess a woman who is being coerced into giving her boss a bj in order to stay employed can just “choose not to work there.”
You people are plain sick.
Apostate, what do blow jobs have to do with employment? Nada. Stop making false analogies, it’s tiresome.
“Knowing that an unpleasant diagnostic tool is part of an elective medical procedure, and still choosing to undergo that procedure, is IN NO WAY comparable to having sex forced or coerced on you”
That’s not for you to say. Having the government mandate an internal probe has no ethical, medical, moral, or legal standing. And the fact that you somehow see the logic in government-mandated medical probes is just proof positive how sociopathic you and your party have become. Even the moderates are sitting up and taking notice.
OH! You must mean that men have to make sure their hearts are functioning satisfactorily well enough for sex before getting a prescription for Viagara, not that they’d need a prostate exam. And they already DO make certain a man’s heart is healthy enough before taking the pill.
Would you like some mayonnaise with your fail?
OOOh, MPCQ. Little a called you a maroon. Clever, you!
Reality, I think it should be a little inconvenient to kill your child, don’t you think? I mean, as inconvenient as bariatric surgery?
Not a Republican, at all. Actually, I despise the GOP. But, it must be freeing to lump people who disagree with you into one monolithic ideology rather than actually make a logical argument, eh?
Jack, you are ON tonight!
Joan, I had a vaginal ultrasound with my first son at 5 weeks after conception. Which, btw, it was very interesting to note my son had a heartbeat, a body, a head and arms and legs, even that early!
It wasn’t particularly enjoyable having a hard plastic wand inserted into me. I didn’t like it. I didn’t really want to do it. I was wishing they would just use the regular ultrasound instead of the vaginal probe. But they couldn’t. And for me to get adequate medical care they had to know whether my son was in my womb or in my tubes. Was that rape then Joan?
I HATE when they insert a speculum at the ob/gyn. I HATE it. It is unpleasant in the extreme. I would rather not be subjected to it at all. But if they are going to provide medical care to me such as pap smears etc… they HAVE to use it. Is that rape?
I have had friends who really WERE RAPED. For you pro-aborts to equate a vaginal ultrasound needed for medical reason to rape just shows how uncaring, unfeeling and anti-woman you really are!
when a woman sleeps with a guy she should know she can get pregnant. its YOUR body that the baby will reside in. apostate you are smart enough to know that am i right? you havent had an abortion? thats good. why are you so angry?
Those who are funding it get to decide what procedures are involved, ape. Feeling empowered yet? Looks like you’re not as ‘in control’ as you though.
“OH! You must mean that men have to make sure their hearts are functioning satisfactorily well enough for sex before getting a prescription for Viagara”
No, I mean that sometimes Viagra is used as a treatment for prostate issues. Nice try though.
And since the Daily Fail is considered an academic resource around here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2097405/Ask-doctor-Could-using-Viagra-harm-prostate.html
Have a nice day, dunce.
Haven’t read the thread so I’d think someone had made this point already, but how on earth would a woman about to have a vacuum crammed into her with any hope of people finding her reasonable take umbrage with an ultrasound?
Good grief.
and apostate YOU came here frothing at the mouth. why? i dont play nice with pro aborts. why dont you take it a notch down to a friendly level?
Heather, don’t try. There is only bitterness in her heart.
courtnay youre right. what was i thinkin?
More information is better from a safety perspective and from an informed consent.
I find it curious that no pro-abort has mentioned the examples of miscalculated gestational age from this post. Obviously we can’t always leave it up to doctors to do what’s best for the patient. With the recent revelations of shoddy abortion doctors, you’d think pro-aborts would be welcoming these ultrasound regulations. They will end up improving the SAFETY of abortions. Joan believes it will have no impact on the woman’s choice, so it is a total WIN for pro-aborts! Safer abortions! How can that be a bad thing?
Lrning–safety doesn’t matter to the proaborts. It never has. The only thing they are concerned with is easy access to abortion. That’s it. If there is a safety procedure or measure that could be taken, it is just another way the Religious Right is trying to get between them and the negative line on the pregnancy test stick.
No, I mean that sometimes Viagra is used as a treatment for prostate issues. Nice try though.
Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t realize that the reason they were using the drug changes whether or not it affects the patient’s blood pressure.
Oh, wait! IT DOESN’T!
Nice try, dunce.
Note that the bill in question does NOT specify which kind of diagnostic ultrasound will be used.
But that’s ok, abortion worshippers, keep screaming your heads off.
I’ve also read that women who were unhappy with their midwives and ob/gyns are also now crying about a “new” kind of rape. That’s right, folks, it’s called ‘birth rape.’ Because every women who gets pregnant suddenly had a medical degree and a license to practice so they should know that even though they are delivering a baby, no one should touch any part of them, especially the uterus or birth canal! Google it, I dare you, and you will not believe the blog posts and comments.
So, next time my dentist tries to take any x-rays of my teeth or check the health of my gums, I’m going to cry oral rape, ‘k, abortion worshippers.
What happens next time I fly and have to go through security?? The possibilities are endless!!
I had to have a tranvaginal ultrasound once. It wasn’t anymore “invasive” than a pap smear, which I have been made to undergo a few times by gynecologists although I am probably as low-risk as you can get. The argument is absolutely ridiculous. The pro-aborts are so terrified that woman are going to figure out there’s a baby in there.
Kate S said: “However if I needed a tympanogram, or a laryngoscopy, or some other form of pre-op evaluation or imaging before the procedure, then if I wanted to do the surgery I would consent. Because it’s a safety issue. It still is surgery.”
Considering that no other legislation mandating any other diagnostic procedures be performed before any other kind of surgery has been introduced in any other state, no legislation requiring laryngoscopies or tympanograms have been introduced anywhere ever, it’s simply absurd to claim that this has anything whatsoever to do with either information or safety.
This will not pass it’s first court challenge, and the people of Virginia are now poorer having paid for these things to be passed through their legislature.
And now the GOP doesn’t have a chance of winning anything in the next half dozen election cycles or so, especially if they continue down the shame spiral they are currently travelling down, when they keep implying, either directly or indirectly, that how a woman feels about a procedure or what she wants doesn’t matter, or that her sexual history or proclivities are carte blanche to enact laws dealing with her health, IE, because you want X procedure, then you shouldn’t mind Y procedure, after all X is much worse than Y. You don’t have the right to have feelings about Y if you’ve already consented to X.
Such things are obvious to those who don’t have sociopathic tendencies, that is, caring about the feelings of others, but we see caring about other people’s feelings is at a premium here; you all sure have a high tolerance for other people’s pain.
Sociopath, diagnose yourself. We speak for those who have no voice. The dead babies? We have no tolerance for their pain.
“We have no tolerance for their pain.”
They don’t feel pain but regardless, acheiving whatever noble goal you think you’re achieving via disregarding everyone else is the definition of WRONG. The pro-life movement is like a real-life version of the scene in Team America World Police where they destroy Paris in the effort to eradicate terrorists.
Erin,
So did I. The clarity of the imaging is remarkable. That’s why proaborts hate it so much-the humanity of the unborn child is undeniable with this technology.
Law,
Would it matter to you if they did feel pain? Didn’t think so. You’re content with killing them. Guess that’s really all we need to know about you. Keep preaching compassion as you shill for the deaths of others 3800 times daily and then wonder why you have no credibility.
If this is all such a ‘war on women’ why is it only the left doing the killing?
They do feel pain. Brush up on your human rights, dufus.
Extra moron points for your lame attack on the GOP-libs consistently vote for lenience for career criminals, especially rapists and pedophiles. Epic fail.
“Would it matter to you if they did feel pain?”
Something that does not have a developed brain and nervous system does not feel pain. The question here is not whether embryos feel pain but whether the government has the right to mandate invasive medical procedures on women we KNOW feel pain. The government does not have the right to mandate ANY medical procedures. So regardless of how you feel about abortion, or what party you vote for, that a government could overstep its bounds as far as it has in this instance should evoke outrage, not support.
Abortion is completely voluntary.
There are many “voluntary” medical procedures one could have that the government does not have the right to mandate anything about. You just don’t get it; you think that the government is doing something you agree with except that this legislation is blatantly unconstitutional. Gotta wonder about people who support things that are blatant violations of established conlaw. Not that I think you care about the Constitution. Dominionists normally don’t.
“There are many “voluntary” medical procedures one could have that the government does not have the right to mandate anything about. You just don’t get it; you think that the government is doing something you agree with except that this legislation is blatantly unconstitutional. Gotta wonder about people who support things that are blatant violations of established conlaw. Not that I think you care about the Constitution. Dominionists normally don’t.”
When people say things like this I wonder about them. The government regulates the medical industry all the freaking time. They can also order medical treatment, in some cases. Why, on God’s green earth, is abortion the only thing that you guys don’t think should be regulated?
The taxpayers that you’re demanding pay for your abortions most certainly DO have the right to lay down some terms, ‘law’. This is a bill in the House of Representatives we’re talking about, remember? Moonbat thugs insist everyone roll over and pay for whatever without questioning it. We the people are saying no. The very least proaborts can do is look at their victims before they kill them. Even death row inmates get that much. You want state sanctioned bc and abortion, then you answer to the state-US. You think there’s too much control now? Keep voting liberal nanny state. What the hell do you think you’re shoving down our throats with obamacare? ONE state mandated choice and one size fits all. You’re not fooling anyone here-same old lib echo chamber and we’ve heard it all ad nauseum.
Jack,
They shriek their heads off over abortion mill regulations-at the time he was apprehended, Gosnell’s mill hadn’t been inspected for 17 YEARS. Who do they think they’re kidding?
“The government regulates the medical industry all the freaking time.”
This is not a bill about regulating the medical industry. It is not a bill to protect patients, or about safety, or about studies or science or information. That is why there has never been a similar bill anywhere else in any other state mandating any other diagnostic procedures.
“It’s not a bill to protect patients” only the ones about to be dismembered in the womb.
Law, the nervous system is beginning to be laid down in the 4th/5th week. As science stands now, they do believe babies can feel SOME pain by as early as 8 weeks. Look this up. This is SCIENCE not pro-life opinion.
they used to say newborns couldn’t feel any pain either. Now they know better. When they perform surgery on the unborn in the womb they anesthetize the baby. Science is learning more and more each day. In 30 years they may discover the baby can feel pain within the first month!
Btw, did you know the earth isn’t flat? Science is a wonderful thing. Read up on it.
A transvaginal ultrasound is standard procedure for ANY pelvic exam. We give a transabdominal exam and follow with a transvaginal for all pelvic ultrasounds, pregnant or not. (I can explain why if anyone really wants to hear.).
Any medical facility worth anything will pair the two exams. It is the most pro woman thing to do if you know the reasons. These pro aborts who have their panties in a bunch about this are totally ignorant of why this exam is done and really need to do a little research before they spout off. It just makes them look, frankly, stupid.
Kristen, I would like to know why? just curious!
Kristen – TV ultrasounds are NOT standard procedure for pelvic exams.
Sydney – Whether fetuses are capable of feeling pain isn’t an argument that has any consideration outside of the abortion debate and it isn’t relevant on early medical abortions. People don’t get upset about fetuses feeling pain during delivery or being yanked out by forceps. The “fetal pain” argument comes about via people who oppose abortion. And that’s all. Ask yourself whether any proposal or idea is applied to any other arena and that will tell you whether or not it has any merit or is just an idea being used as a political football.
Law, I agree that whether babies feel pain or not during an abortion does not make it moral or immoral. If I was sleeping and someone climbed in through my window and shot me I wouldn’t feel any pain either but killing me would be just as wrong.
I only posted that because you wrongly asserted that fetuses cannot feel any pain and I wanted to correct that misconception.
Um Law? I am a sonographer and yes TV (trans vaginal) ultrasounds ARE standard for any pelvic US. The are done In TANDEM with TA (trans abdominal). Meaning first a TA ultrasound is done with the patient having a full bladder. (ladies we are not lying when we say you need a full bladder) to get measurements of the ovaries, uterus and endometrium. We then have you empty your bladder for the TV ultrasound (urine in the bladder creates reverberation on a TV U/S which makes it difficult to see the anatomy and any pathology, whereas on a TA U/S the full bladder works as a window to help us see.
The TA U/S uses a 4MHz probe and the TV uses an 8MHz probe. I won’t bore you with the physics of this but the easy explaination is the lower the MHz the greater the penetration but the lower the resolution, which is why we use the low on TA. We can see more of the pelvis and sometimes ovaries sit far off in the adnexa, not close to the uterus- every pelvis is different.
We us the 8 MHz on the TV U/S because it has greater resolution, but decreased penetration. Meaning we see a WHOLE lor better but, for example, if your ovaries sit way lateral to your uterus we might not be able to see them, or see them well.
I will give you an example of why the are done together at any GOOD medical facility and you should demand they are both done if you ever have to go for a diagnostic test.:
Just recently a woman came in with sever pelvic pain. We did a TA U/s. and found a HUGE pedunculated fibroid off her uterus. She needed surgery to releive the pain. We could not see it by TV U/S because the penetration problem.
Another woman had pelvic tenderness. On TA U/S we saw something that looked like a mass in her bladder. (bladder cancer is very curable with high success tates) Once we went in by TV we could see it was growing off her ovary. An enormous mass that had invaded the bladder. Ovarian cancer has a 5 year survival rate of about 5%. this woman immediately went into surgery.
Ladies INSIST on both exams! It could save your life!
And that is why BOTH exams are standard Law. Next time please remember what I said about doing a little research before you spout off. Sheesh!
kristen–I really appreciate the experience and knowledge you bring to this discussion. But law will not be confused by the facts. The real issue is: whatever sonogram is used, the mom considering an abortion might not decide to go through with it because the picture (and her heart, if she’d listen to it) tells her clearly: BABY. NOT BLOB.
And that makes law VERRRRRRRRRRRRRRY angry.
Thanks Courtnay!
I hear you about Law. But far be it from me to not point out an ignorant comment when I see it! He /She just proved my point and I guess I like being proved right. ;)
Abortionists don’t care about women.
They don’t care about rape victims.
They don’t care about safety.
They don’t care about imformed consent.
They don’t care respecting women.
Abortionists don’t care about children.
All that abortionists care about is preserving their cash flow.
They will say anything if it might scare people into preservng their cash flow.
An ultrasound (via belly rub or vaginal probe) before a surgical abortion is standard medical care. It is criminally irresponsible of the pro-aborts to present this as a scare tactic.
Oh, thank you so much for the image of the transvaginal pelvic ultrasound a.k.a. “Virginia Rapist”. I especially appreciate the fact that I don’t even have to photoshop the slogan onto the picture, since it’s already been done for me :) I am now off to plaster this image all over the internet so more people will be made aware of the gross violation being perpetrated upon women in the backward state that is Virginia. I vote Bob McDonnell have this particular piece of equipment shoved up his ass, since he seems to be so much in favor of it.
Oh, btw, I am a mother. I had an abortion years ago after becoming pregnant too soon after our first child was born while using a diaphram that failed. I have NEVER REGRETTED MY DECISION TO ABORT. Ever. Not even for a second. One of the most responsible decisions I have ever made.
“All that abortionists care about is preserving their cash flow.”
Hahahhaa, so do you think ob/gyns are penniless monks delivering babies for donation only? Give me a break. Babies are a multi-billion dollar industry. You’re not fooling anybody with your tired strawman, Del.
Megan: I think the case could be made is that abortionists only care about their cash flow because once the job is done, there’s no baby to care about. In the case of babies born alive, there’s actually someone new in the world to care about.
Abortionist: Destroyed a life and made a buck
Ob/Gyn: Brought a life into the world and made a buck
Abortionists could easily stop doing abortions and make those big bucks as OB/GYNs too, Megan. They don’t. Why? The money is too good doing abortions, and they admit it themselves. The average suction abortion takes about 20 minutes. The average birth does not. Do the math. Apparently you’ve never been inside an abortion mill, where they herd the women from room to room like cattle as the ‘process’ is completed. Many of Tiller’s patients testified about the rows of beds lined up in the basement filled with women in various stages of labor as they were expelling their already dead babies who’d been given a shot of digoxin to the heart. If you consider sending a woman to the LaQuinta to wait for the laminaria to dilate the cervix as quality medical care, you might be a liberal. If an OB sent a patient to a dump motel to wait out her labor, he or she would be out of business pretty quickly, and rightly so. Many abortion patients have testified the ‘doctor’ never even spoke to them. Real interested in the welfare of women, aren’t they? Cha-ching $$$.
Ironic that you mention the late Dr. Tiller, a man who invested his Cha-ching $$$$$$$ into shoring up the security of his place of employment, his car, and his home. Really, the money must have been such a tantalizing distraction from the constant death threats from fetus-worshiping psychos. If his salary had actually been commensurate with the hazards of the occupation, he could have built a titanium bubble around Wichita proper to keep out randall terry’s merry band of glassy-eyed droogs. And maybe his four children wouldn’t be fatherless right now.
By the way, conservative pro-lifers actually applied their ruthless cost-benefit scalpel to healthcare reform, we would have had a transparent pricing scheme long ago. Don’t you agree that it’s sooooo anti-woman of my doctor to charge me $400 for a bone scan? Why aren’t you up in arms??!
So sorry for you Apex. My sister also became pregnant with her second too soon following the birth of her first. I now have an 8 year old nephew and 7 year old nephew. Both are a blessing and loved by our family even if the timing of their births wasn’t the best. Thank GOD my sister didn’t believe in killing an innocent child for the crime of being conceived “too soon”.
Tiller was worth 4 million at the time of his death, Megan. Cry me a river.
Those of you dismissing the statement that an invasive ultrasound is the equivalent of rape and then questioning why those that are pro-choice aren’t saying abortion is rape are missing the key feature of what constitues rape:
CONSENT. If there is NO CONSENT penetration is rape. Ultrasound, broom, penis, whatever. No consent=rape. Consent=no rape.
The medical instruments required to perform an abortion would not be rape because the women gives consent.
See how that works.
Yeah. And I only consented to having my teeth cleaned by my dentist. I didn’t consent to x-rays.
XRAPE!
xaliasae…. If you did not consent to xrays, your dentist would not force you to have one. The state does not force you to have xrays. You do not have to pay for them. And if he ties you down and does force you, that’s assault.
Words having meaning and they are important.
I’m sorry, does this legislation state that women are to be tied down and given ultrasounds? I must’ve missed that bit.
If I have an appointment with my dentist, and he sees a problem that needs to be corrected, he has an x-ray made to help facilitate this. It’s about responsibility and quality of care. Like, not drilling or removing a tooth that doesn’t need to be. We don’t need a law that says he has to, because dentists have, by and large, exhibited responsibility themselves by practicing due diligence and informing patients of everything that is happening during an office visit.
The same cannot be said for abortionists, making this law necessary.
http://realchoice.0catch.com/library/deaths/blectopicdeaths.htm
Those women might still be alive if they had been “raped” by an ultrasound.
Proaborts do nothing for rape victims except vilify them if they choose not to abort. Pretty much all we need to know about their ‘caring’ for women. If they’d ‘consent’ to adulthood a little more often, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.
“Um Law? I am a sonographer and yes TV (trans vaginal) ultrasounds ARE standard for any pelvic US”
What you said is that ultrasounds are standard at pelvic exams. They are not. THIS is a pelvic exam: http://my.clevelandclinic.org/services/pelvic_exam/ob_overview.aspx
Ultrasounds are used only on patients who are pregnant or having uterine issues that require further diagnosis. So whether or not you’re a sonographer seems irrelevant since you don’t seem to know that most normal nonpregnant women do not require ultrasounds at a basic yearly pelvic.
Del: “An ultrasound (via belly rub or vaginal probe) before a surgical abortion is standard medical care. ”
So explain why there needed to be a bill introduced in a state legislature mandating it.
Ultrasounds are used only on patients who are pregnant or having uterine issues that require further diagnosis. So whether or not you’re a sonographer seems irrelevant since you don’t seem to know that most normal nonpregnant women do not require ultrasounds at a basic yearly pelvic.
I’m sorry…are abortion patients NOT pregnant?
Okay, so just as a point of clarification: when crisis pregnancy centers offer pregnant women free ultrasounds, are they giving transvaginal or abdominal ones?
Also, are those CPC ultrasounds performed under the direct supervision of a physician, as is required by the Virginia bill?
Quote: “a qualified medical professional trained in sonography and working under the direct supervision of a physician licensed in the Commonwealth shall perform fetal ultrasound imaging”
If I don’t want it I still have to have one? It’ll be interesting to see how this is enforceable, or even Constitutional. I suggest women bring their boyfriend or husband and bring a video camera.
Law, I can see that I will have to spell everything out for you. The discussion was about PELVIC ultrasounds on PREGNANT women so my comment about a TV US being standard procedure is accurate. If we had been talking about pap smears on yearly exams the story would have been different. It seems like you are trying to cover up YOUR mistake of saying they weren’t standard by trying to pretend the discussion was about something it wasn’t about.
Perhaps you tend to jump around in your conversations, I tend to stay on topic. But, like I said, you were just trying to make it look like I was misinformed, but only succeeded in making yourself look silly. Congrats!
PS Law, if you read my comment again (which you should since you didn’t get it the first time). I said “Um Law? I am a sonographer and yes TV (trans vaginal) ultrasounds ARE standard for any pelvic US”.
US stands for ULTRASOUND. So, as you can see, I clarified what I was talking about. You ignored it.
As someone who has had multiple transvaginal ultrasounds, I’d just like to pipe up about how really unpleasant they are. They’re painful and cause ridiculous cramping afterwards, and in this case, they are completely medically unnecessary. Most women doing prenatal u/s don’t have to undergo a t/v, so why this exception for women seeking abortions? I would hesitate at calling it rape, but it’s medically unnecessary and a waste of time and resources that could better be spent otherwise.
You know what annoys me? The idea that women are stupid and don’t know what’s growing inside them, and therefore need to see an ultrasound image to figure it out. I’m pretty sure if there was a chance that it was a kitten or a bunny, some women would be all for it– kittens or bunnies aren’t generally life-changing. But yes, it is a human fetus, and yes, it does have the potential to become a human baby. We know that already. No ultrasound is going to change that.
But yes, it is a human fetus, and yes, it does have the potential to become a human baby.
And, regardless of the stage of development “it” (I prefer to use the term “he/she”, since they have their own gender at conception) is in, they are the living biological child of the pregnant mother (unless the pregnant woman is a surrogate) and a human being. Why do we need the TV-US? Because I see you here (barely) acknowledging the humanity of the gestating individual, but then we have PP saying crap like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PMW27APLRY
1. Fetuses do not have genders. A fetus can have a biological sex, yes, based on chromosomes and genitalia, but gender comes much later. As one of my professors used to say, gender starts when you choose between the pink or blue hat at the hospital.
2. And like I said on another post, I don’t know at what point a human fetus becomes a full-fledged human being. I don’t know if it has a soul. We know that it is human, yes, because it has human genes, but other than that…we don’t really have any concrete evidence. So, yes, some people believe that life starts at conception, and some people believe differently.
3. I still don’t see why we need the t/v ultrasound. A regular pelvic scan is all you need to see what’s going on in there–and contrary to what the US tech posted above, you don’t automatically get a t/v with your pelvic. My ultrasound imaging place, for example, has two different kinds of suites set up. One is relatively large, with room enough for multiple family members to hang around. That kind is for prenatal pelvic us. The other kind is for pelvic and t/v uss, and is a lot smaller. They don’t generally let family members come along to these appointments (which I think is bizarre, but whatever). And on the referral form, there are separate ticky boxes for pelvic and t/v ultrasounds. My guess is that this is something that varies practice by practice, but where I am at least, you don’t automatically get a t/v along with your pelvic ultrasound.
4. People here say really nasty things about pro-choice people! It really throws me for a loop! Let me break this down– I have no dog in this fight. I don’t profit monetarily from abortions, and I am still pro-choice. I am not pro-abortion (in fact, I think of myself as pro-life, since there’s so much more to that than beliefs about abortion!) but I still think it should be legal. I do care deeply about rape victims, regardless of what they choose if they become pregnant as a result of the rape. I really love babies and I want to be a mom someday. I’m a Christian. But that doesn’t mean that I have any right to tell a woman that she has to bear a pregnancy that she doesn’t want.
“Fetuses do not have genders. A fetus can have a biological sex, yes, based on chromosomes and genitalia, but gender comes much later. As one of my professors used to say, gender starts when you choose between the pink or blue hat at the hospital.”
Agree there.
” And like I said on another post, I don’t know at what point a human fetus becomes a full-fledged human being. I don’t know if it has a soul. We know that it is human, yes, because it has human genes, but other than that…we don’t really have any concrete evidence. So, yes, some people believe that life starts at conception, and some people believe differently.”
And, I don’t see why it particularly matters where exactly “life” starts or a “soul” enters the body. I certainly don’t think it’s possible to legislate on it. The fact is, that a human organism in present after conception happens. And even if we don’t have everyone agreed on the “soul” and “personhood” aspects, I don’t see why that means an embryo or fetus can’t be protected by law. A human organism should be entitled to human rights. Chipping away at basic rights for some human organisms (like, being able to live without being killed) cannot be reasonably justified.
I think the bill dropped the rider requiring the tv ultrasound if a regular ultrasound isn’t sufficient, which is fine by me. Kind of moot at this point. I just didn’t like the faulty analogies or claims of rape.
”People here say really nasty things about pro-choice people! It really throws me for a loop! ”
Granted, I don’t like it either.
” Let me break this down– I have no dog in this fight. I don’t profit monetarily from abortions, and I am still pro-choice. I am not pro-abortion (in fact, I think of myself as pro-life, since there’s so much more to that than beliefs about abortion!) but I still think it should be legal. I do care deeply about rape victims, regardless of what they choose if they become pregnant as a result of the rape. I really love babies and I want to be a mom someday. I’m a Christian. But that doesn’t mean that I have any right to tell a woman that she has to bear a pregnancy that she doesn’t want.”
But see, that’s just skating over the fact of what she is bearing with her pregnancy. It’s not like she is carrying a tumor. She is carrying another human, and that actually, genuinely makes a difference. What do you think is preferable about legality as opposed to illegality?
So, yes, some people believe that life starts at conception, and some people believe differently.
Some people believe that the moon is made of green cheese, and some people believe differently.
And like I said on another post, I don’t know at what point a human fetus becomes a full-fledged human being. I don’t know if it has a soul. We know that it is human, yes, because it has human genes, but other than that…we don’t really have any concrete evidence. So, yes, some people believe that life starts at conception, and some people believe differently.
This is a philosophical argument. It’s not science. Scientifically, there is no question as to when a human being becomes a human being.
Christine J
A TV US is ALWAYS performed on a pregnant woman in the first trimester along with a TA. It is highly ignorant of anyone to say this is not true. The only time they are not done in combination with a TA is when it is a young girl – a virgin – and obviously she would not be pregnant. In the early first trimester (5 -6 weeks) a monographer cannot normally see a yolk sac or fetal pole. When we go TV these are visualized even that early and heart tones are checked.
On what authority do you say they are not necessary and a waste of time? Clearly, you do not know what you are talking about.