Abortion proponents injure pro-life vet and elderly man in two separate attacks
In recent days we have reported on the assault of a pro-life protester (caught on video and followed by arrest) and the vandalization of a pro-life leader’s home.
Here are two more attacks by abortion supporters against pro-lifers to report.
The first occurred June 30 and is in follow-up to my story that pro-life activists planned to distribute flyers outing country singer JoDell Nauert as the owner of three abortion clinics at an Independence Day gig.
This was ironically a charity event for a group supporting handicapped children and adults.
Six pro-lifers paid to enter the event and were in the process of distributing tracts when organizers asked them to leave, which they did.
But one of those pro-lifers, Steve Kinn (above right) is a disabled veteran who walks with a cane due to injuries sustained to both his knees. When he didn’t exit fast enough, the property owner allegedly shoved him, making him fall to the ground and reinjure one of his reconstructed knees to the extent he had to be taken out in an ambulance.
It was of no help that a police officer threatened to arrest Kinn for trespassing both before and after he reached the hospital.
But the officer got a call and suddenly left.
Meanwhile, however, pro-lifers continued to picket outside the Nauert’s event for 90 minutes.
Here’s a great video synopsis, shot and edited by Jay Rogers of the Florida Pro-Life Network…
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJSehfVjgSk[/youtube]
In a separate attack, 69-yr-old pro-lifer Everett Stadig was collecting personhood initiative signatures in front of a Denver grocery store on July 1 when he was shoved to the ground by an enraged abortion supporter and fractured his hip. Read details of the story at LifeSiteNews.com.
Supposedly a passerby got the license plate number of the perpetrator, and police took a report, but there has been no word from authorities since.
Nevertheless, Everett is still collecting personhood signatures from his bed, the dear man.
It goes without saying to pro-lifers that a movement grounded on killing babies is inherently violent.
It used to be that they could ignore us. But that is no longer possible. As the saying goes (attributed to Gandhi but disputed), which describes the phases of nonviolent activism, “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
If this is true, the other side is nearing the end of the mocking phase and beginning the fighting phase. This transition has been ongoing for a few years, as evidenced by the growing intolerance to pro-life displays on college campuses, for one.
Someone recently posted this on Facebook, which I love. Click to enlarge…
As abortion proponents apparently sense defeat at hand, they are beginning to engage in anarchy.
Get ready. As I said, this is only the beginning.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
It goes without saying to pro-lifers that a movement grounded on killing babies is inherently violent.
EXACTLY!!
He had no business being at that concert if he had no intention to enjoy the concert. He went there specifically to cause problems and make noise to an unreceptive crowd who paid good money to listen to a concert and not your movement’s crazy nonsense.
We are tired of being bullied and shamed by you people and we are tired of watching you guys attack people for exercising their constitutionally protected right to abortion services in this country. We don’t care what god you think you are working for and that is our right.
The chocolate milk splasher must be so proud.
“then they laugh at you”
Have you ever noticed how some prolifers are quiet on the life issues because they just can’t take the idea of social ostracization and ridicule that sometimes goes along with being an out of the closet prolifer? I think that’s what’s behind the silencing many of our pastors.
I love how the left is tolerant of anything except views that disagree with they’re own.
“It goes without saying to pro-lifers that a movement grounded on killing babies is inherently violent.”
Not like the movement that seems to have little problem with the assassination of abortion providers? Oh, right, they kill “babies” so it’s all good….eye for an eye and all that biblical justification and all that jazz.
And BTW, I find it interesting that Ms. Stanek is obsessing on Ms. Nauert. Lots of folks have fiduciary interests in abortion clinics. Why is she encouraging harassment of this one? And another BTW, “alleged” is a key word here. Let’s hear the other side of the story. Oh, right, the only one true side is the “pro-life” side. Yeah, right…
Funny, Ms. Stanek hasn’t posted anything about the abortion of the Ohio personhood endeavor. Not enough signatures. Oh, no. I thought everybody (especially the scientific community) believes in the sacredness of the zygotes. LOL.
The assasins of abortionistshave never been part of the pro-life movement. They thought that killing an individual could solve the problem of mass killings — an attitude that they learned from the abortionists. Pro-life regulars have been unanimous in condemning any violence against pro-abortion persons.
But when criminals perpetrate violence against pro-lifers — the pro-aborts crow like roosters. “YAY! We should all be doing this! We should have been doing more violence, all along!”
It is going to get rough out there, folks. We are going to have to absorb the pain and punishment, until America gets sick of the hurt and the hate that abortion-proponents inflict.
Some of us will lose our homes and our savings. Some of us will die for the women and the children. Are we ready to make the sacrifice?
A Revolutionary War for life, liberty and freedom is once again upon us.
And now, according to Biggz, not only do we no longer have the right to life, we don’t have the right to free speech! LOL.
Bring it , Biggz. I’ve given birth and run marathons. I can certainly handle the chocolate milk spiller !
I have always felt very afraid of pro-choice people. If they would murder a baby bacause it is getting in their way of doing what they want to do in their life, what would stop them from hurting me? Maybe the law, as they would not want to be arrested. But other than that, I don’t believe that anything would stop them.
The last picture is amazing. Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.
I know that it’s hard for many fence-sitters to see the humanity of an embryo; they don’t look very developed so it might be hard to say “oh that’s what I used to look like” but the scientific fact is that zygotes and embryos look like they are supposed to. At 2 weeks gestation, I did not look as fully adorable as I looked 30 weeks later (which is about two weeks after I was born). But I was alive two weeks after fertilization. I was alive one week after fertilization. I was alive at conception. At conception, the material that used to be my mother and father’s DNA became uniquely my own. My cells began to divide (a sign of life by ALL scientific standards). As the hours and days went by, I began to grow in size, and I continued to grow for the next 20 years. I was alive. A child who is unwanted is no less scientifically alive.
In fact, if abortion were illegal as of tomorrow, and we instead had drinking fountains that were labelled “wanted” and “unwanted” : that would be a sign of progress. Yes, folks, I do consider it better to be unwanted and still get to drink at that water fountain, than to be unwanted and thrown in away in the trash as ”medical waste.” Was I wanted? Was my brother wanted? Was my sister wanted? Tell me, if I show you photographs of each of us, will you be able to tell the wanted from the unwanted? I think not. I think if you prick us, we do bleed.
Wow! This really got the attention of our trolls! Must be effective!
Little Z…who is bullying whom? You are the one who in previous posts suggested in a thinly veiled threat there would be severe consequences if anyone ever dared to approach you or your lady at a clinic. It seems you have it all bassackwards. Besides…haven’t you heard of the first amendment which is actually in our constitution, as opposed to abortion rights which are nowhere to be seen in the founding documents?
Our military heroes die to defend our freedoms…not the freedom you want to harrass prolifers physically and to kill unborn babies.
We are tired of being bullied and shamed by you people and we are tired of watching you guys attack people for exercising their constitutionally protected right to abortion services in this country.
Oh, cry me a river
There’s no bullying or shaming going on, at least not from the pro-life side. That’s just a myth that pro-aborts like yourself have to make up because you have no support for your position. If there’s any “shame”, it’s not caused by us. It’s caused by the realization that what a person has done or what he/she believes in is wrong.
Oh, and abortion is not a “constitutionally-protected right”. Another pro-abort myth.
We don’t care what god you think you are working for and that is our right.
Ummm…not all pro-lifers believe in God. And there are pro-aborts who do believe in God, and try to twist the Scriptures (or whatever religious text they believe in) to support their position.
CC: “I thought everybody (especially the scientific community) believes in the sacredness of the zygotes. LOL.”
For the sake of spiting those you hold in contempt, you resort to contemptuous language regarding the mystery of life itself. And don’t be so quick to chortle scornfully at “mystery of life” — the world’s greatest scientists respect it deeply in those terms. It’s why they love science.
CC, you’re so hellbent on impugning pro-lifers that you seem to have left no corner of human genesis unscathed. It’s as if anything wonderful and good about the cycle of life is just grist for your hate mill. I mean, WTF?
I’m a pro-lifer and I have NEVER encouraged the killing of abortionists or bombing of any clinics. I don’t believe in violence as a tactic. I believe many other pro-lifers on here have expressed the same sentiment on more than one occasion. I don’t see why we have to keep repeating that. But then again, I don’t know why some people who can’t stand what we have to say keep coming back here.
On the other hand, I wonder if it’s because secretly those people really want to believe in the pro-life movement but are afraid to. If that’s the case, then I say most sincerely, stop being afraid of being pro-life and join us. There’s many wonderful people in the pro-life movement who will walk with you, cry with you, laugh with you, and help you.
Nihilists have no joy, rasqual.
“Their” own, not “they’re”. I swear my typing is getting worse.
x: I have this wonderful German Shepherd. Best dog ever. Whenever we encounter a mean dog on a walk — one who expresses that meanness in an obvious way — my dog just barks a couple times. I’ve come to understand this dog more than any animal I’ve ever known, and I know what this bark means. It actually means “dude! what’s with the hate? i just wanted to say ‘sup.”
Maybe I should just stop anthropomorphizing my dog (he hates it when I do that), but I swear we share in common an incredulity that mean people are so capable of cutting off so many of their own noses to spite so few of other people’s faces.
Dear cc and other haters – If we pro-lifers condoned violence against abortionists as a solution, there’d be more dead abortionists. Not only is that type of problem solving wrong, but, as such, it is clearly inconsistent with who we are. The people here do not lack courage; they are filled with love and logic. And so much grace.
Biggz, you and your baby killing buddies have every right to be “tired”. You do not, however, have the right to physically assault other people with whom you disagree.
Btw, her music sucks. lol. It sounds like the typical crap you hear at a bar on an week night. My husband does sound for many venues in the Philly area and he wants to bash his head against a wall when he has to hear crap like this abortion clinic chick.
Sydney,
Lol! (I actually don’t like using that, but what the heck.) She was so bad I actually thought it was a protester! I have no desire to YouTube her, so I wouldn’t know.
These punks who knock over their elder, less-able-bodied fellow humans probably wonder why they’re concerned about babies. Less competition for their entitlements, after all!
They just don’t like humans at any age, I guess.
Great Gandhi quote….Gandhi opposed abortion! :)
Gandhi opposed abortion!!!! WOW!!!! We’ve got to get the word out to all the left wing pacifists who ignorantly support abortion.!!!!!!!!
I mean a lot of pacifists don’t support abortion. But a few of them do support abortion because they don’t know that fetuses are people. They also don’t realize what a violent proceedure abortion is. If they knew this, they wouldn’t support abortion. Pointing out that Gandhi opposed abortion might help them to get it.
Mahatma Gandhi-“It seems to me as clear as daylight that abortion would be a crime.”
Well, to this I say, “Bring it on, pro-aborts.”
Love wins. If you want to join our side, we’d be happy to have you. Join the pro-life side – we have joy, grace, peace, and happiness. :)
It actually excites me to see this happening. The more your enemy screams and howls, the closer he is to defeat. People and animals lash out harder when they feel threatened. So if the pro-abortion side is being threatened, we’re doing something right. :)
And just one more comment – it absolutely sickens me that they would push an elderly vet down, who was obviously limping! How could they push *anyone* down!? It’s hard for me to believe that there really are such cruel people in the world. But I guess in a movement where women kill their own children and men drag their women and daughters into abortion clinics to kill their family members, who cares about some limping geezer who’s just a strain on society, right? It just makes me want to hug all the wonderful, gentle, strong pro-life people I know, who actually look out for the weaker among us.
P.S. Rasqual! German Shepherds are my favorite dogs. When my husband and get to a place where we can have pets, I want a German Shepherd. They’re awesome companions. :)
I like quoting Gandhi as a rebuttal to pro-aborts (inevitably) using George Carlin as their initial rhetorical salvo. The contrast there is just…so perfect!
True pacifism begins in the womb.
Social justice begins in the womb.
Why? Cause that’s where human life begins.
Duh.
BTW: I hear this often. “So what if JoDEll has money invested in an abortion clinic. Lots of people do without their knowledge.”
No, JoDell OWNS three abortion mills. She used to own four, but closed one. Her late husband George Nauert was an abortion doctor who founded the abortion chain, Woman’s Health Center (in Tampa, St. Pete, Sarasota and Clearwater). He married JoDell who was 28 years younger than him. When she found out he was cheating on her, she sought a divorce. He became depressed and committed suicide. She inherited the three mills.
A side note is that when George was a teenager he was mixed up with a gang of Neo-Nazis in Wisconsin.
See:
http://www.forerunner.com/fyi/nauert-george-michael
and
http://www.forerunner.com/fyi/nauert-jodell-lynne
For the commenter who thinks abortion is a “constitutional right” — why is the right to assembly, press, free speech, and petition so offensive when it is by pro-lifers? The right to abortion is not in the Constitution, yet our right to picket an abortionist on public property is protected. And here is the 800-pound gorilla in the room — How is it that if JoDell is so proud of what she does, that the promoters of the event reacted so aggressively against a disabled vet who was simply passing out information to the crowd? Why is it that JoDell is trying to hide this fact?
You can’t be a true prolifer and use violence or kill. You can be a prochoicer and use violence or kill just by definition. They are in the mass killing business. When people kill doctors, even butcher docs. it makes the world more dangerous for everybody. Prolife will win sooner if we continue to reject violence. If we lower our standards of behavior to that of prochoice; this conflict will go longer and more unborn babies will die. Violence in the prolife movement has no practical purpose and will just give prochoice an excuse to be more violent Pax
Lucy – Your “head in the sand” view of the facts is astounding… 7 doctors have been murdered by active “pro-life” movement members. Before these people committed these murders they were “sidewalk councilors”. Let me say that again 7 doctors murdered, not pushed, or knocked down. They were not trying to make any political point but rather just going to work like the rest of us. Outside my local Planned Parenthood on any given day of the week you will find “sidewalk counselors” calling the patients names like whore or slut as they try to get birth control or cervical cancer screenings. I personally have had “holy water” thrown across my back as I entered the front door. For god sake Lucy Dr. Tiller was murdered in his church on a Sunday in front of his family and other church goers… Just go to Wikipedia and search anti-abortion violence if you can handle the truth of your “pro-life” movement. It should just be called Christian Fascism in my opinion…
This man however went to this concert specifically to harass people and cause problems at an event that has nothing to do with women’s rights… That is the definition of public nuisance and he should have been arrested.
In all the protests I was dragged to as a kid, I saw enough violence and hate from both sides to last me a lifetime. Us pro-lifers don’t seem to be doing much better than the pro-choicers on that front, to be honest. Of course, this is from my limited experience at a few Florida clinics, and Florida is fairly well known for crazy people and violence, so it might he different elsewhere. But anyway, what happened to these men was awful.
Jack Borsch, I’ve heard this line from pro-aborts so many times, that there is so much violence. It’s easy to make accusations — but aside from the two isolated incidents in Pensacola 20 years ago, where is your evidence that Florida pro-lifers are violent?
Can you point to arrests or convictions for violence? You can’t because they don’t exist. It’s easy to make accusations without evidence.
I show the police interaction in every one of our Awareness videos to show people that the police agree that we are obeying the law. They see that we are peaceful Christians exercising our first amendment rights.
Pro-aborts are bullies, they bully unborn babies, old people and women. We had some pro-aborts bully the older pro-lifers at own local abortion mill, then I started to show up and protest with them. They no longer bully us and just walk by now :), lucky for them…
Jay Rogers, I am not a pro-abort. I am talking about my personal experiences, and things I hear from friends of mine. In the early nineties, before FACE, I remember my mother and the people she protested with physically blocking access, yelling, “you are going to burn in hell”, stuff like that. On the pro-choice side, I got spit on and threatened by women or friends and family members of the women seeking abortions, among other things. I have stayed far away from protests as an adult, but from what I hear from people it hasn’t changed much. Again, personal observation, not empirically based knowledge. And, it seems that a lot people view clinic protesters the same way I do, which probably means that people need to emphasize that non-violence, non-harassment aspect to the public. That message doesn’t seem to be coming through very well.
Truth be told, an honest look at the issue of violence in the abortion debate doesn’t leave either side looking to good. Of course, our side kind of wins by default given that abortion itself is an act of violence.
Oh and, it also must be said that not all acts of violence lead to arrests and convictions, not by a long shot. So using that as a standard would greatly underestimate the amount of violence committed by both sides.
Jack Borsch,
I said I’ve heard this same line from pro-aborts many times. I lived in and owned a house across the street from an abortion clinic in Melbourne, Florida for seven years. In my less than limited experience, I have never seen one act of violence from a pro-life activist.
You mention Operation Rescue blockades and threats of hellfire to those who will not repent.
You also mention that a pro-abort spit at you.
That’s not violence. Although spitting could be prosecuted as battery, if someone is that much of a wimp concerning his convictions, that is.
You also have no idea what a social protest movement looks like. Compare the pro-life movement to the “peaceful” civil rights movement. The civil rights movement is ironically known for being peaceful because of the rhetoric of Martin Luther King. He advocated the same type of peaceful sit-ins that you call “violent.” However, there were many acts of real violence on both sides of the civil rights movement. The pro-life movement is much more peaceful than the civil rights movement was.
Consider that people have been protesting at abortion clinics since the 1960s. In that entire time four abortionists and four clinic workers have been killed. We know of two pro-life activists who have also been shot and killed. That is NOTHING compared to the murders during the civil rights movement.
In each of the cases, the anti-abortion bombers and shooters were disgruntled, embittered men who were out of any consistent church fellowship and not under any spiritual authority. One was a defrocked minister who was excommunicated from his church for his stance on violence. In other words, these were not CHRISTIAN pro-life activists.
Each of the people in our group is accountable to a church pastor or elder of some type. Dick Maxwell who leads at some of these Awareness Campaigns is a licensed minister.
Stephen Kinn has no intention of pressing charges. He just wanted to make it known that he was disrespected as a disabled veteran. The violence being done to the babies far outweighs any minor inconvenience we might suffer.
Jack, to sum up, you are recounting your perceptions from over 20 years ago. The perception now is through groups such as 40 Days for Life, Bound 4 Life, etc. which are a peaceful, silent witness at abortion mills.
Twenty years ago, the leaders of Operation Rescue, Randall Terry, Keith Tucci and later Flip Benham were committed to non-violence. However, the viewpoint was spun by the liberal media in the 1990s that pro-life activists were violent.
In the same way that the media also reinforced the idea that the only violence was being DONE TO civvil rights protesters, people will always believe what they see on TV.
Despite being tarred with a broad brush by the pro-abort media, through peaceful resistance over the past 20 years, the number of abortion mills has dropped from over 2000 to less than 700. The liberal media then realized that claiming violence was going on at abortion mills only backfired on the abortion industry. It helped to close more than half of the mills.
Now they just ignore us. But now we have social media and can show the truth that we are peaceful.
Our particular group is not silent like 40 Days and Bound 4 Life, but we are committed to non-violence.
I maintain that with video and social media so readily available, the only acts of violence we will ever see in REALITY are from the pro-aborts. That was the reality all along, but we did not have the power of the new media in our hands until now.
It is violence. I consider blockades violent, especially considering the other stuff that went on I am not getting into. If you dont, we probably won’t agree. Which is fine, you have your opinions, I have mine. Spitting and death threats against a five-year-old might seem just fine to you as well, but I am opposed to that too. :)
As to your insistence that spiritual leadership is why your specific group isn’t violent… I am not a Christian and I have seen no evidence whatsoever that they hold higher moral standards for that type of thing, at all. We will most likely never agree on that, either. I am not personally attacking your group, btw. Again, these are my personal observations and opinions.
I do, however, think that the general public opinion about clinic protests is more along is closer to my view than yours. If it is a fallacious view, and I freely admit that I am biased and probably looking at it wrong, but I do not think your message of non violent resistance is getting out to the average Joe or Jane on the streets. When I ask people who are not particularly involved in the abortion debate, their impressions tend to be of pro-lifers bullying women at clinics, and harassment and violence being commonplace. This view needs to be changed, and if you are working to that end then that is awesome.
Oh, and I think Randall Terry is a nutbar and does damage to the cause.
Jack, okay we don’t agree. But it is not just a postmodern difference in “perception is reality.”
Answer this: How come with all the video and social media we don’t have a single video of a pro-lifer attacking a pro-abort? Why is it always the other way around?
Jack,
I’ve been out to the clinic quite a few times at this point. I don’t think your assessment from your point of view is fair at all. I know I shouldn’t take that personally, but I kinda do. :(
Also, I’m not religious, I oppose violence, and the very first time I was out on that sidewalk someone gave me an underhanded threat about getting shot because I was showing a picture of my daughter whose father wanted her killed in an abortion to show that these are not “potential people/human beings” that are killed, but real and actual people/human beings.
Jay, good point. I too would like to see the pro-life violence videos.
How is it that if JoDell is so proud of what she does, that the promoters of the event reacted so aggressively against a disabled vet who was simply passing out information to the crowd? Why is it that JoDell is trying to hide this fact?
I thought the same thing, Jay. If she owned three beauty salons, she’d be thankful for the free advertising of her businesses.
I remember my mother and the people she protested with physically blocking access, yelling, “you are going to burn in hell”, stuff like that.
I don’t think this is really violent, Jack. If a group of people did this outside a concentration camp during the Holocaust in attempts to save human lives, years later people would view them as heroes.
Maybe CC can provide them along with the REAL aborted baby pictures.
Jack,
I agree with X. I’ve been out there, and the pro-lifers I’ve seen have been quiet, respectful, peaceful for the most part. The perception perhaps comes from the fact that those going to the clinic are already in a state of heightened emotion (fear, trepidation, guilt, sadness, etc.), and so the very presence of people standing around the clinic protesting – regardless of how quiet and peaceful – is frightening to them, and in their state of emotional upheaval, it seems worse than it is. Our memories tend to do that, you know. Besides, abortion clinics have a very tense feeling anyway. I feel it when I go there, just standing outside the buildings. There’s something about being there that causes a general intensity in the air.
In fact, the most violence I’ve seen at a clinic was a guy who was dragging his girlfriend in who yelled profanities at us all. Our crime: standing and praying, singing hymns. I’m not denying that there might be more violent pro-lifers. But I don’t think your assessment is fair at all. The general spirit of violence is far more prominent on the pro-abort side. Most of the times, a pro-lifer would try to converse with the guard, totally friendly, making small-talk, but the pro-abort guards were always curt and rude.
There’s nothing wrong with what this group did – they were passing our flyers.
And for the prayer groups that stand outside of clinics, I ask you: why not? Babies are being killed. Is it so wrong to pray outside of the place where they die? Is it so wrong to implore God and/or women in a last-ditch effort to reconsider? There are so many stories of women who changed their minds because of prayer groups. That’s worth it to me. If only one baby was saved by standing outside of a clinic, one woman was saved a lifetime of pain, regret, and remorse because of a kind pro-lifer who was there outside the clinic, I’d say it’s worth it.
I’ve prayed at two clinics in our area. One is small and the other people are 40 Days participants: quiet and prayerful. At the larger one, there is a regular group that shows up on a kind of schedule and they’ve got the ugly pictures and the damnation thing going on. During my first 40 Days I walked up to them rather tentatively, wondering what was going on. One of the guys took a look at my dress and my rosary, without asking me a question, he said, “If you’re looking for the Catholics, they’re over there” and he pointed down the sidewalk to where the 40 Days folks were set up. The 40 Dayers weren’t very visible, so bypassers saw the ugly photos first but we got plenty of ‘runoff’ spitting, swearing, and gestures.
The average driver would see them not us, and conclude that pro-lifers are more nuts than bolts, lol, so Jack’s experience is just as valid as anyone who has only seen the peaceful sort of protesters. I think that our new commenter, while passionate, is running to conclusions a little rashly. If you’ve been lucky enough to only see pleasant pro-life activity, then good for you, but today there are folks yelling damnation and brimstone at the cars, so yes, it still happens.
First, I apologize for speaking in generalities, I realize I didn’t explain myself well and probably tarred most of you with a brush you don’t deserve. X, I know you aren’t out there shoving people and screaming in their faces. I’m sure that a lot of protesters are fine. It’s just an emotional subject, again, I admit I have a pretty heavy bias.
Yes, the blockades are violence, especially when people get shoved or pushed for trying to get through them. Death threats are violent speech, etc. Following people down the street when they have repeatedly asked you to leave them alone, waving aborted baby photos at them, is harassment (happened to me in Orlando even after I told the dude I was pro-life). I have no problem with peaceful protests or prayer vigils. That’s freedom of speech and assembly.
I do disagree, LibertyBelle, that the violent perception comes solely from flawed perceptions and our opponents. It also comes from the very few extremists who are actually very violent, and the fact that pro-lifers seem a bit cagey about condemning stuff that is out of line.
Videos of violence against pro-choicers? They have court documents and arrest records of this stuff, a few that I remember happened this year. There was that attempted bombing of the clinic in Wisconsin, and the arson of the clinic in Florida. Both sides have their violent extremes. I don’t really think either side can claim to hold the moral high ground when it comes to their adherents’ violent actions (of course, we do hold the moral high ground in regards to abortion, but that isn’t the topic at hand.
Ninek, I think you are under the impression that if you are just give off the air that you are “nicer than Jesus” while standing out in front of the abortion clinic that the world won’t hate you.
Good luck with that idea.
(Although there is no such thing as luck.)
“After all, Jesus never told anyone they were going to hell, did He?”
“Jesus never presented sin with any graphic image, did He?”
Just think about what you are saying for two minutes.
In the end, justice is always won because of truth, not through considering our public image.
If pro-life people block an entrance to a clinic and make it harder for someone to commit murder and perhaps give them pause, that’s a GOOD THING.
What other kinds of killing, Jack, do you think it’s also “harrassment” when we try to stop it? Exactly?
Jack,
You make my point exactly.
There are RECORDS of arrests and prosecutions of people who have committed violence against abortionists and abortion mills.
Blockades are not violent because the people arrested for clinic blockades were usually charged with trespass or some minor misdemeanor. Violent crimes are felonies. Words mean things. You can’t change the definition of violence to suit your argument.
Now I maintain that in EACH case where there was a prosecuted act of violence you always had:
1. An embittered person
2. Acting alone and not as part of any pro-lfie group
3. Not a member of any church or subject to any spiritual authority
These people may be anti-abortion, but they are not pro-life Christians because they are outside of the church.
You don’t have any video footage anywhere of organized pro-life demonstrators becoming violent when they assemble at the mills. However, we have plenty of footage of pro-lifers who have been attacked and injured while demonstrating.
Your perception is not reality unless there is objective evidence to back it up.
A majority of people might think pro-lifers who go to the mills are wacky or violent. It does not make that correct.
First, most of that number are pro-abortion.
Second, there are some who call themselves “pro-life,” but who would never go out to a mill.
It’s easier to pass off what you have heard about pro-lifers as an excuse rather than confront the reality of child murder where it occurs.
In the final analysis, if you really believe that abortion is child murder, then these arguments about who is being more civil — the quiet Catholics with the rosaries or the loud Evangelicals with the graphic images — are quite meaningless. Based on what we believe about abortion, both groups are showing tremendous compassion and restraint toward the killers.
Forgive me for my blatant diplomacy, but what everyone seems to be circling around is, first of all, how violence is defined. I mean, is shouting at someone violent? It certainly may be less peaceful, but is it violence? Come on, now. That undermines the evil of real violence. Is it a great strategy? A whole different debate. I confess that I have shouted at my kids, and I am not proud of that, but does that make me violent? Nope. Of course, I am also not saying that violence by pro-lifers does not occur. Just don’t say pro-lifers are just as violent and then use shouting and graphic signs as examples. Lacking credibility. We pro-lifers are not calling some pro-choicers violent because they scream at us and have mean signs. We should however hold ourselves to a higher standard. Also, we should and do denounce real violence. Do pro-choicers disown their violent advocates?
” both groups are showing tremendous compassion and restraint toward the killers”
You mean the women who freely choose to have abortions? They’re murderers, right?
“I don’t think this is really violent, Jack. If a group of people did this outside a concentration camp during the Holocaust in attempts to save human lives, years later people would view them as heroes”
Once again, American Jews, the majority of whom are pro-choice, are offended by the comparison of the Shoah to abortion. But-you-don’t-give-a-crap. Right?
“Twenty years ago, the leaders of Operation Rescue, Randall Terry, Keith Tucci and later Flip Benham were committed to non-violence. However, the viewpoint was spun by the liberal media in the 1990s that pro-life activists were violent.”
There were arrests and convictions of Operation Rescue folks during that time. These people not only blockaded clinics, thereby preventing access to women seeking a legal medical procedure, but they also poured glue into the locks of clinics in addition to other vandalism. Maybe you think it’s non-violent but it was adjudged as criminal. Many women trying to enter the clinics were attempting to get medical care not connected to abortion – legal medical care. If you think that physically preventing somebody from accessing care is non-violent, you are seriously deluded.
Yes, CC, murderers. They knew it then, or they know it now. But eventually they’re gonna know it. So there’s still time, my friend.
What’s with you and the Jews? Seriously? I gues maybe it’s been 14 hours since you made that point? But you’re equally wrong when you say we don’t give a crap. Because actually, amongst everyone involved in this debate, we are the ONLY ones who give a crap.
Which looks like this: if Himmler’s car was parked outside the camp, I’d have NO problem putting the superglue in it. And I’d boldly wear any arrest with as a badge of honor.
If the live thing is human and you kill it, CC, it’s murder. Try to be consistent instead of guilt-ridden and BLIND.
Whether or not Jews appreciate the comparison is irrelevant to the question of whether it’s accurate. A rational person should be concerned with only the latter.
Do you have evidence of an arrest for violent protest at an official Operation Rescue event?
”I gues maybe it’s been 14 hours since you made that point?”
Actually, 14 hours is probably a new record.
“Ninek, I think you are under the impression that if you are just give off the air that you are “nicer than Jesus” while standing out in front of the abortion clinic that the world won’t hate you.”
That’s a pretty big leap to make about assumptions I may or may not make about myself. Perhaps you may be projecting? I went out in public for the first time because of 40 Days’ format, which is peaceful, prayerful, and non-confrontational. The format WORKS because people who are turned off by the damnation and ugly pictures find the peaceful format INVITING. It has got thousands of people off the couch and into real pro-life activism. Many participants begin supporting their local pregancy centers financially and in person after their 40 Days experience.
There are many tactics we can and should use in the battle to end abortion. I only advocate peaceful means. One of the commenters made a great point when she said that if most pro-lifers actually did advocate violence, there would have been a lot more dead abortionists. Most of us are peaceful, and people who commit crimes need to be arrested no matter what side of the issue they take. I don’t think being nice will make people not hate me. I’ve known some pretty nice people and they don’t necessarily win popularity contests. In fact, I heard a young person disparage Mother Teresa recently, “Ya, well maybe she took care of the poor, but I hear she was a real bitch!”
Yes, cc, we mothers who have killed our children are murderers, but we heal when we repent and we work to make sure that no more children die needlessly at the hands of abortionists who make money from death. Even an atheist can repent, cc. Even an atheist can say, wow, I did the wrong thing, and I will never do that again. Even an atheist can say, wow, that law is unjust, I’m going to work to repeal it. You don’t have to write fan mail to Jesus to be pro-life, cc and Biggz. Just do it! Don’t be pro-abortion merely to keep a bunch of people from ‘winning.’ I personally don’t win if abortion is made illegal again: the children win. That’s why I’m here.
Will you feel better if I say this instead, CC?:
If a group of people did this near the auction block during legalized slavery in attempts to save humans from becoming slaves, years later people would view them as heroes.
P.S. Is anyone here interested in setting aside an time in the near future to pray for CC? How about some night around 9pm or so? We could do it peacefully without graphic signs. (:
Dear Biggz,
I abhor the behavior of ANYONE who calls women sluts or whores or murderers as they go into a mill!!
I will be sidewalk counseling in the fall and will have much to say to anyone who yells that when I am around!!
And those who do that? They should be ashamed of themselves!! It drives women right into the arms of the escorts and into the mill. The escorts look helpful and the mill becomes a place of safety. From us and the help and support we are trying to offer.
http://www.lifenews.com/2011/07/05/web-site-chronicles-violence-by-abortion-supporters-practitioners/
Ninek, Your reasoning is that since people are “turned off by damnation” that hell should not be mentioned? How do you present the Truth without bringing up the Law of God and the punishment for the sin of murder? How can someone truly repent without hearing about the truth about sin?
One of the problems IMHO is that too often pro-lifers assume that admission of emotional pain after an abortion is the same thing as repentance. Feeling sorry for the consequences of sin is not the same as Godly sorrow for sin.
Furthermore, healing does not always come from repentance. People should not be told to repent so they can “heal.” Most women will never heal after having lost a child. How much more so if they realize they are responsible for the murder of that child? Repentance yes. Forgiveness yes. Healing may never come fully this side of heaven.
I appreciate 40 Days. I have promoted and participated in three 40 Days campaigns in Orlando, but one thing I don’t understand is the revisionist history lesson on how 40 Days is winning the battle with a new and better approach.
In 1992, there were over 2000 abortion mills in America. Today there are less than 700. Almost all of that happened prior to the “peaceful, loving, non-confrontational approach” of 40 Days.
Now we have people who just got involved telling others that have been at sidewalk ministry for 20 years or more that they are not effective if they don’t do it a certain way.
What’s more, I have never seen pro-lifers so quick to take credit for what God has done!
Do it your own way. More power to you. Do something. But keep it in perspective and be committed to the long haul. We are not going to win this battle overnight. But we are winning. Once you’ve been at it 25 years, then you can tell me what’s what.
Jay,
You mixed up Jack’s first comment with Biggz’, which came just before. Jack was noting nasty rhetoric on both sides, while Biggz was all about the few cases of abortionist murders.
I am against all forms of violence, vandalism, etc. It’s counter-productive and it is not how we will win. It’s not God’s plan. God’s plan is for us to lay down our own lives for our friends — “the least of these.” But we need to take it in perspective. If someone is arrested for trespassing at an abortion mill in order to save a life, there is a higher law that is being obeyed. I have gladly offered up my body to suffer an arrest and a few days in jail to save babies. This is nothing compared to what Jesus did for us when he was arrested. It’s a glorious thing to suffer for the Gospel’s sake.
When my friend Steve was injured and taken away by the ambulance, he didn’t think for a moment about retaliating against the man who shoved him to the ground. He was sad about being disrespected as a disabled veteran. And he noted the irony that this was a benefit concert for disabled children who would have been aborted if their moms showed up at one of JoDell’s mills just a few years earlier. We went to Hudson, Florida to expose that hypocrisy.
I went to Hudson knowing that this venue would be a little more risky. We passed out Fourth of July Gospel tracts and a brochure someone made about Jodell. We agreed that once we were told to leave — as we surely would be — we’d retreat to public property. I had no idea that the owners would be so keyed up and aggressive toward us.
Watch the video again.
There is a longer version here:
http://youtu.be/Ymh3XgFZlTQ
“If pro-life people block an entrance to a clinic and make it harder for someone to commit murder and perhaps give them pause, that’s a GOOD THING.”
Yet another example of a “pro-life” person for whom ends justify means. But why stop at simple criminal mischief? Blockading a clinic entrance is small potatoes. Blowing it up entirely would make it vastly more difficult to “commit murder” there. Why wouldn’t that be a GOOD THING for you?
Um…joan? Apparently because not all means are justified. In other words, you’re imagining that someone you berate for justifying SOME means, is obliged to justify any and ALL means — including those inconsistent with a pro-life ethic.
So maybe “ends justify the means” isn’t the most accurate description of those you’re failing to characterize rationally. That is, the “outer brackets” of their ethic aren’t as simple as you make out.
But you knew that.
Troll.
Consistency is exactly what I’m looking for, because it’s in such short supply from the part-time utilitarians here. Nothing extravagant, just maybe some kind of rule of thumb about when it’s okay to break the law and when it isn’t.
Jay Rogers,
I walk with Ninek as a fellow post abortive mom who has found grace and mercy and forgiveness after abortion.
I don’t think you understood Ninek’s comment. But I will leave that to her.
Women who have aborted and found their way to healing bring a certain amount of credibility to the topic of abortion, no? We can speak to what the journey is like.
Did I say “should not be mentioned”? A lot of projection and assumption going on. Maybe a little less energy spent insulting one’s teammates might be a good idea. The gains of 40 Days are no small thing (well, they start out small, but they keep growing, lol, pun intended!).
I can understand the criticism from pro-aborts but I don’t accept that a pro-lifer can come along fairly recently to a mill and say to people who have been there for years that they can’t use graphic signs, they can’t yell out to the women. They have to pray silently.
Of course, everyone has their own opinions. And we all know what opinions as like. You can state your opinion on what you think is effective. I have my opinions too. I’ve seen this long enough to know I have no idea what will be effective. God will use a variety of things. My strategy is simply to ask if it aligns with biblical Truth.
The Truth about sin makes people feel uncomfortable and afflicted. I don’t believe we should be so seeker-sensitive that we ignore Truth. We should not criticize those who are simply speaking the truth in a way that we feel uncomfortable with.
Joan, the last thing you need to lecture me or any of us on is how the end justifies the means. You think it’s okay for moms to kill their unborn babies so they can have the life they want, all under the protection of “legal procedure.”
@ Carla, July 6, 2012 at 10:30 pm
Amen & absolutely, Carla!
As a post abortive woman, I, too, have seen protestors out at the abortion mills who do the same. I turn to them and say, “Enough, take it from me, you’re NOT helping these men or women” and then they want an explanation on the reasons. Distraction and discourse–ammunition for the evil one. I then see the abortion escorts laughing at us and immediately starts supporting these women and men as they enter the parking lot of these mills. Since emotion and passion is so strong that is why I MUST pray before I go to the abortion mills.
Thanks & God bless you, Carla, for bringing up this important issue.
P.S. Carla – Smiles and hugs to you!
“Joan, the last thing you need to lecture me or any of us on is how the end justifies the means.”
Come to think of it, didn’t she once say some nonsense like China’s one child policy is justified because it has increased educational and career opportunities for women? If so, I guess the end justifying the means is actually a principle she’s quite fond of. (I may be confusing here with CC or someone, if so I apologize)
joan has made comments in favor of the One-Child policy with regards to the women knowing the rules and breaking them (so it’s the women’s fault). She also made light of the child who was backed over in China and killed, and has also made crude comments against children with Down syndrome.
AND… joan claims to be a sometimes church-goer.
“About 220,000 Sinti and Roma were killed in the Holocaust (some estimates are as high as 800,000), between a quarter to a half of the European population. Other groups deemed ‘racially inferior’ or ‘undesirable’, Soviet military prisoners of war including Russians and other Slavs, Poles, the mentally or physically disabled, homosexuals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Communists and political dissidents and criminals, were also persecuted and killed. Many scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these groups in the definition of the Holocaust, with some scholars limiting the Holocaust to the genocide of the Jews; some to genocide of the Jews, Roma, and disabled; and some to all groups targeted by Nazi racism. Taking all these other groups into account, however, the total death toll rises considerably, estimates generally place the total number of Holocaust victims at 9 to 11 million, though some estimates have been as high as 26 million.”
~ http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/holocaust.html
And are all of these other people groups annihilated by the Nazis also offended by the comparison of abortion to the Holocaust? It is easy to forget that the Jews were not the sole victims of the Third Reich.
God bless you as well Carol!!
I facilitate Rachel’s Vineyard retreats. One of the women had an abortion and was called a whore and a murderer by those outside and she was thankful for the escorts that day!
When I am out there I will have to say something if I hear that!!
Not on my watch!
Does anyone listen to prochet john paul jackson, He says god told him he apointed a president for this time cant come to pass, his mother aborted him and he said social socurity would be fine but we lose 50 million baby so god is doubling pegnancys making twin thats y we are having alot of twins being born. You can find it on you tube under 2012 perdictions.
So a “prophet” said that God’s sovereign will to raise up a great president was trumped by an abortion?
That’s a false prophecy because it contains heresy.
God does not ordain evil, nor does He predetermine historical events that doe not come to pass because His will is overcome by evil.
This discussion is certainly a mixed bag of nuts!
The only difference between the civil rights days and today is today they will use acid in their attacks in public.
Need to start inflicting pain back.
Biggz, so accepting your number of seven doctors killed, how does that compare with the millions of babies killed. If human life doesn’t begin at conception, when does it begin? The US courts used to side on the side of caution, which would be that life begins at conception but for the last 70 years or so they have been a popular vote forum.