Three generations of Planned Parenthood supporters (who weren’t aborted)
This morning I read three crazy pro-choice tweets in a row. #1 was by NARAL. Next up is #2, by Planned Parenthood:
The link led to this photo…
I seriously wonder, what goes through the mind of these people?
What it is like to be the daughter of a mother who supports abortion? Does it really bring comfort to hear, “I chose you”? Does she have any dead siblings? Is she okay with that?
And same for the granddaughter. Does she realize she may have a dead brother or sister? What is it like to be hugged by two women who would have killed her had she been conceived at an inconvenient time? To be smiling with two women who advocate aborting their own children and grandchildren as simply a “choice”?
And the audacity of Planned Parenthood, which would gladly have taken money to kill that beautiful little girl, which can only display this photo in the first place as an affront to its primary business, abortion.
The whole lot of them are whacked.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I may have said it before, but this is always where I think “God complex” because these women look very happy with THEIR decision that permitted life and consequently this photo shoot. They seem to be saying “Look what I did! Me! I wasn’t bullied by God or nature! And look how happy I made everyone!” (I do realize that I am ironically acting all-knowing myself here, but this is the only way I can understand this to reconcile the contradiction).
When I saw that tweet, I was deeply saddened, and all the same questions immediately came to mind.
What sort of sick twisted feeling must the granddaughter have been feeling while she smiled for that picture?
Last fall, our 40 Days vigil met a protester who was missing a hand. I had a discussion with him and, when I noticed his hand, I said you were fortunate not to be aborted with your disability. He defended his mother’s right to choose to abort him, even though he was standing there very much alive! The logic simply does not work with pro-choice people.
If the child in the photo is old enough to publicly state she supports abortion, she is old enough to view this: herestheblood.com
C’mon Mom and Grandma, make some popcorn and sit down with her to watch the show. Invite her friends and your neighbors.
Their tweet SHOULD have read “Some serious DELUSION going on here.”
Three generations standing there… wearing PP t-shirts…and they don’t even see the IRONY in that.
“What it is like to be the daughter of a mother who supports abortion? Does it really bring comfort to hear, “I chose you”? Does she have any dead siblings? Is she okay with that.”
Proud to be the daughter of a woman, brought up in the narrow confines of Irish-Catholicism, who supported a woman’s right to choose. It’s possible that my mother had an abortion (Irish-Catholic women with resources got D&C’s) and if she did I admire her even more because a pregnancy, at that time, would have been devastating. Many of the women attending rallies for choice are accompanied by daughters and even grand-children. These women, and their female progeny, don’t have the same world view as you do. Some of them belong to pro-choice faith communities who aren’t going away any time soon. Pro-choice is inter-generational – and they vote!
“What sort of sick twisted feeling must the granddaughter have been feeling while she smiled for that picture?”
That’s your projection. Once again, you really can’t grasp that not all women share your worldview.
“Look what I did! Me! I wasn’t bullied by God or nature.”
Exactly. As I said, their view of “God,” might be very different from yours.
“Three generations standing there… wearing PP t-shirts…and they don’t even see the IRONY in that.”
What irony? It’s all about choice. If choices had been different, they might not be standing there. If my parents didn’t have sex, the night I was conceived, I wouldn’t be here. The children of pro-choice parents should be happy as they can feel secure in the knowledge that they were, if not planned, wanted.
I had a botched abortion 30 years ago this October. I had gone to Planned Parenthood for “counseling.” The counselor basically told me I had no right having kids, gave me a list of how much baby items cost and asked, “How are you going to afford it on your own?”. No alternatives no nothing.
I highly recommend these three read “Pivot of Civilization” by Margaret Sanger, where she says “If we must have charity, give it to the rich, not the poor.” She also called poor people “human weeds.” Oh, and for the record, while she was married to Noah Slee, a millionaire, she had three lovers at the same time. I’d love to hear their reply.
real “girl power” is teaching your kids that when life gets hard, you take responsibility for your actions, not run away from them by aborting children. It takes absolutely no strength of will to get pregnant and have an abortion, but it takes a lot of will power to be abstinent or at least take responsibility for your actions (like i did) when you do the wrong thing!
@ CC: the irony is that they are there at ALL. Duh.
Forgive me ma chere Cherie, but your tale of woe sounds like something out of pro-life central casting as it so plays into the narrative of uncaring Planned Parenthood staff. While it might be true, it was 30 years ago and at present, there are lots of Planned Parenthoods, serving over a million women, most of whom seem satisfied with the services.
Margaret Sanger saw the effects of unplanned pregnancies up close and personal when she worked with the poor of NY City many of whom pimped out their children in order to make ends meets. She saw poor women dying of childbirth related diseases. Back in those days, there were no support services for the poor. She received thousands of letters from poor women who wanted information on limiting pregnancies. Her work with minorities (WEB Dubois) earned her praise from MLK.
The quote sourced about “charity” is cited on pro-life sources as being from page 96 of Sanger’s “Pivot of Civilization.” It does not appear on this page or anywhere else in the book.
And “human weeds?” “This allegation about Margaret Sanger appears in an anonymous flyer, “Facts About Planned Parenthood,” that is circulated by anti-familyplanning activists…”
You’re entitled to your opinion of Margaret Sanger but not your facts. The propaganda on Fox News is actually better informed, such as it is, than that peddled by the pro-life movement. “Botched abortion, bad advice from Planned Parenthood, and Margaret Sanger quotes all rolled into one script. Interesting…
And Sanger having three lovers? Who cares? LA pro-life Senator David Vitter had sex with a prostitute. That doesn’t seem to bother the pro-lifers.
”least take responsibility for your actions (like i did) when you do the wrong thing”
Why is having unprotected sex the “wrong” thing? Abortion is legal. If a woman chooses to have one, what business is it of yours?
It’s all about choice. If choices had been different, they might not be standing there. If my parents didn’t have sex, the night I was conceived, I wouldn’t be here.
I had a recent convert to the pro-life position tell me that she finally realized it’s about the choices we make before conception.
If parents don’t have sex, that’s a different situation than killing a human post-conception.
If abortion is about choice, then so is violence against any other human life.
Uh, oh. I did a little fact checking on an alleged Sanger quote and it got censored. Inconvenient truths?
Jill, do you know conservative commentator Caitlan Flanagan? She believes her grandmother probably died as a young woman in an illegal abortion. Some women remember mothers, sisters, and daughters who committed suicide because they couldn’t bear to complete a pregnancy or lost their lives in squalid back alleys.
As I’ve said before: prevention, prevention, prevention. I don’t want abortion. I want joy at pregnancy.
I couldn’t help but notice that the last line of this article says “The whole lot of them are ”whacked” and then the first rule of posting is “DO criticize ideas, not people”.
Hmm….
David Boonin includes the following in his book, A Defense of Abortion:
On the desk in my office where most of this book was written and revised, there are several pictures of my son, Eli. In one, he is gleefully dancing on the sand along the Gulf of Mexico, the cool ocean breeze wreaking havoc with his wispy hair . . . .In the top drawer of my desk, I keep another picture of Eli. The picture was taken September 7, 1993, 24 weeks before he was born. The sonogram image is murky, but it reveals clearly enough a small head tilted back slightly, and an arm raised up and bent, with the hand pointing back toward the face and the thumb extended toward the mouth. There is no doubt in my mind that this picture, too, shows the same little boy at a very early stage in his physical development. And there is no question that the position I defend in this book entails that it would have been morally permissible to end his life at this point.
Quite disturbing, but at least he’s honest about it. I do wonder whether the two mothers in the above picture would be willing to say the same thing.
It is Jill Stanek’s blog. Her blog. Her thoughts. Her rules.
The rules are for the commenters. :)
What do you think of the photo Cara?
How can it not be whacked when they are the smiling proaborts who are ALIVE??
They get to survive but wouldn’t blink an eye to sentence other innocents to death.
Another word for whacked?
Cognitive Dissonance.
CC,
Do you get paid per word, per sentence or per post?
OR maybe you get paid for all those that bother to answer you?
Don’t forget your screen shots!!! LOL
So sad, that’s 3generations? Doesn’t even fill a dinner table. I pity them.
CC,
Yeah. You are censored!!! You truly make me LOL!!
You have been around long enough to know that when you post something with more than one link the comment is held in moderation.
You need to ask a moderator to publish it for you. Use the magic word next time.
What a shame to use a child as a “pawn” eh CC? Or are they just pawns when they are prolife???
Frankly, I find it quite sad when people say they support abortion and yes, that includes their own mother had she chosen to kill them. It seems to lend itself to not just a devaluation of all human life, but a misdirected devaluation of their own lives! They’re basically saying, “I’m alive, but my life has so little value that it would have been okay for mum to have killed me inthe womb… I’m just not that important”.
David Boonin sounds like a very messed up man. That is all I can say right now.
That’s your projection. Once again, you really can’t grasp that not all women share your worldview.
Yes. Some women have their worldview distorted from a very young age due to conditioning from homicidal parents/grandparents. They react inappropriately towards being told that killing them should be a legal and acceptable course of action during a certain point in their life. I imagine that it is far easier for us to attempt to project sanity on someone in a position like that, since the skewed worldview they have been handed is incomprehensible to reasonable people without such conditioning.
Maters familias, with the power of life and death in their merest word.
“This one lives. That one dies.”
CC is so very proud of this exercise of personal power, decreeing who lives and dies.
She wears the pride as well as anyone can wear a blood-drenched ethic, I guess. But my gosh, what it has come to when folks can’t deny that the fashion really suits you…
Jeanette:
Absolutely! Is it any wonder everyone is on anti-depressants these days?!?!!
Carla, my first thought after seeing the photo that the little girl was so young. Raised the question of “how young is too young” to learn about women’s rights issues such as abortion.
“Honey, you need to know how important it was for Mommy to have had the power to decide whether you lived or died when I first realized you existed. Now aren’t you glad I decided the way I did?
I’d sure hate to see anything bad happen to that nice little life you have there, y’know?
Oh, and aren’t you glad those two brothers you’d otherwise have aren’t here to crowd the house? Your daddy wanted ’em. But it’s MY decision to make. Just one more reason to thank me, honey…”
“It’s possible that my mother had an abortion (Irish-Catholic women with resources got D&C’s) and if she did I admire her”
No doubt, she’s a left wing loon like you. Move back to Ireland, and take all the Kennedys with you.
Jasper,
As the wife of a good Irish boy, I find what you just said absolutely disgusting.
Hey CC, I was just wondering something, exactly how many lives are each of you required to sacrifice to Satan every year? Have you filled your quota yet or are you still trying to find innocent unwitting teenage and pre-teen girls, children, to convince to have unprotected promiscuous sex, just so you can then get them to murder their babies in the process of your sacrificing them? I don’t just feel offended by your arrogance, but rather more sickened by the fact that you’re soulless and so disgustingly vile. God’s gonna have a fun little time with people like you, because as much as He’s a loving and forgiving God, He’s also an angry and vengeful one as well. Good luck with that.
“Look what I did! Me! I wasn’t bullied by God or nature.”
Cc: “Exactly. As I said, their view of “God,” might be very different from yours.”
Exactly. As I implied, their view of “God” is very different from mine.
Theirs is wrong. That’s all.
Why is it that when pro-lifers teach their children pro-life values it’s called brainwashing yet when pro-choicers teach their children about about pro-choice it’s girl-power. That child is lucky. Two dodged bullets got her here. I will never for the life of me understand how anybody that has had a child could consider themselves pro-choice. How can they look their child in the face and know they would have killed them if it had been an inconvienent time.
There is no “right” to abortion Cara.
How young is too young to learn that life begins at conception?
My daughter was 3 1/2 when she saw the ultrasound of her younger brother and then felt him kick. 6 years old when she saw the ultrasound and felt her next brother kick.
She was 8 when I told her about my abortion and the sister she has in heaven.
Show a child of a photo of fetal development and they say BABY!!
Tell me when you will tell your daughter that she can abort your grandchild and you will encourage and support that.
This is so sad.
CC
I’m sorry you lost a sibling :'(
Cara,
Abortion is a women’s wrongs issue.
What about someone who has a dead sibling because she died in a back-alley abortion?
Or someone who knows a grandmother or aunt was killed similarly?
Or someone whose sister committed suicide because she wasn’t prepared to carry to term?
Can you at least UNDERSTAND why people who lost female loved ones to problem pregnancies when abortion was illegal support its legality?
The truth is that abortion is a sub-set of the larger difficulty inherent in growing up female: avoiding a problem pregnancy. This is the difficulty that must addressed and dealt with.
Stuff like this makes me so sad. It’s a terrible feeling knowing that your mother thought of you as property that she didn’t have to keep around if she didn’t want you, at one point in your life. These girls proudly standing up for that, it gives me chills. I mean, in my darker moments I used to think that maybe my mom was right to want to get rid of me, but that’s mental illness on my part. I just can’t imagine proudly fighting for my mom’s right to kill me, or my ex’s right to kill my kids or something. I just don’t really get where the daughters are coming from, unless it is depression or fear or something. No one should see their life as only an option, depending on how much their parents want them.
“CCI’m sorry you lost a sibling :’(”
Don’t be. I’m not. It was truly for the best.
“Hey CC, I was just wondering something, exactly how many lives are each of you required to sacrifice to Satan every year?”
Once again, the belief that the anti-abortion movement is a radical quasi-Christian cult is underscored.
“Exactly. As I implied, their view of “God” is very different from mine.
Theirs is wrong. That’s all”
It’s that kind of thinking, which resulted in the persecution and murder of those who disagreed with the Roman church, that caused the Protestant Reformation. It’s that kind of thinking that generated millenia of anti-Semitic persecution of the Jews – persecution that culminated in the Holocaust. But your dismissal of other faith traditions underscores, once again, why your movement, in its “exclusivity,” alienates so many people. The idea that there is only one valid religious tradition is both ridiculous and demeaning.
JackBorsch says:
August 8, 2012 at 3:46 am
Stuff like this makes me so sad. It’s a terrible feeling knowing that your mother thought of you as property that she didn’t have to keep around if she didn’t want you, at one point in your life. These girls proudly standing up for that, it gives me chills. I mean, in my darker moments I used to think that maybe my mom was right to want to get rid of me, but that’s mental illness on my part. I just can’t imagine proudly fighting for my mom’s right to kill me, or my ex’s right to kill my kids or something. I just don’t really get where the daughters are coming from, unless it is depression or fear or something. No one should see their life as only an option, depending on how much their parents want them.
(Denise) Suppose abortion was illegal. Your daughter was raped and couldn’t stand the thought of bringing the pregnancy to term. She committed suicide or was found dead in a motel room from an illegal abortion.
If that happened, could you see why people who love the women in their lives might favor legal abortion?
Can you at least UNDERSTAND why people who lost female loved ones to problem pregnancies when abortion was illegal support its legality?
Your premise is faulty, as is theirs. They didn’t lose female loved ones to “problem pregnancies”. If they died in abortions, they lost family members to ABORTION. This is victim-blaming of the highest degree. An easy way for them to have stayed alive would’ve been to NOT ABORT THEIR CHILD. I place anyone who would risk their life in a homicidal attempt to get out of parenthood squarely in the camp with the suicidal. There are plenty of people who have injured or killed others in armed rampages simply because they wanted the police to kill them as they were suicidal at the time. That doesn’t mean we legalize suicide. These people need help, not death, and that goes for them AND their children.
“CCI’m sorry you lost a sibling :’(”
Don’t be. I’m not. It was truly for the best.
It never ceases to chill my blood, the lack of empathy displayed by someone who supposedly worked in Child Welfare.
that is really mind boggling, if you think about it. By the action (“choice”) of the oldest of those three it would have meant only she would be in the picture.
Carla, if God FORBID, my daughter was raped, or faced a grim diagnosis for her baby, yes…I would ABSOLUTELY support the choice she made. Or even worse, if she happened to be raped and impregnanted before her young body would handle a pregnancy…..YES, I would support it. And frankly, any mother who doesn’t feel that way about their daughter should re-think their parenting.
“CCI’m sorry you lost a sibling :’(”
“Don’t be. I’m not. It was truly for the best.”
CC, it was not the “best” for your sibling. I am sorry for him/her who didn’t get the chance to live! I am not sorry for you, since apparently you cannot appreciate him/her.
I am just sadned by your ease in justifying the abortion of a sibling.
Cara says: And frankly, any mother who doesn’t feel that way about their daughter should re-think their parenting.
Yeah. Any mother that wouldn’t support the killing of her grandchild shouldn’t be a parent. :-/
Lrning, then aren’t you glad I’m not yours?
Cara, I would do anything to save the life of my born children. Why wouldn’t I be willing to do the same for my unborn?
For a daughter that’s been raped and impregnanted, no one here thinks that is an ideal situation. It’s an act of violence, and much can be done to help the victims as far as psychological treatment. But the WORST thing you can do is kill an innocent child. That child inside your daughter’s womb isn’t guilty of anything. He didn’t choose to be created. Out of such a tragedy can come one triumph: a new life, a new blessing, the answer to someone’s prayers.
But NEVER a trip to Planned Parenthood. It’s just death and destruction there. Choose life.
And if the little girl in question is not able to PHYSICALLY handle carrying a pregnancy to term? The psychological damage ALONE from giving birth and then giving the baby away could very EASILY be enough to damage her for life.
Cara, how about the damage from an abortion? That lasts a lifetime!
I want to address the psychological argument in the above post by Cara (I am not a doctor and so I have no background to comment on her argument of physical ability, so let us say that the girl psychologically does not feel ready for a child, but physically is able to bear one to term).
“The psychological damage ALONE from giving birth and then giving the baby away could very EASILY be enough to damage her for life.”
But the psychological damage from killing that same child could not easily be enough to damage her for life? And why does giving the child away have to be the ONLY other option besides killing the child?
If that child were one of your BORN grandchildren – which would you rather have happen to your grandchild? In the first option, the child is taken away from you, but lives a good life with whoever she was taken to. In the second option, her limbs are pulled a part and shredded.
The answer when you apply thinking to born children is obvious. The answer for unborn children is obvious as well, but many people do not view unborn children as “persons” with a right to life, and so cannot see that. But to have so little hope in the face of an awful situation is what truly boggles my mind. What about counseling? What about open adoptions? What about making it possible for the girl to live a life with her baby? What about encouragement? What about not making her feel like her world is ending (it isn’t!). There are SO many options out there, so many different ways to react to a surprise pregnancy, and the pro-choice reaction to unwanted pregnancies, especially in younger women and girls, always seems to be a “doomsday” reaction. Its sad. It doesn’t always have to be that way!
And if the little girl in question is not able to PHYSICALLY handle carrying a pregnancy to term? The psychological damage ALONE from giving birth and then giving the baby away could very EASILY be enough to damage her for life.
And you’re going to compound that damage with forcing an abortion on her? Get real. The abortion would certainly and irrevocably damage the girl far more than a pregnancy. Also, if she was able to conceive, chances are a pregnancy would not be nearly as physically damaging as you seem to believe.
If I had a young daughter who was raped and then conceived, I would love her too much to submit her to an abortion.
when abortion was illegal in most states, rape was a capital crime. the two went hand in hand. California and New York legalize abortion and defined dow the consequences of rape at the same time- the late sixties, early seventies.
Kinsey had a road-show with made up statistics about how rape never harmed a woman, how she recovered so easily. The possible child would, of course, be aborted, since it was now legal, in the new, compassionate era of baby-in-a-blender.
Before that, rape was a crime that men could be killed for committing, since he’d most likely ruined an innocent young woman’s life. Now, imprisonment has a time limit, and there are enough rapists in prison to practice their trade on other men- debasing other prisoners even further- and then getting out and continuing to wreak their destruction on civilians.
If you think more dead infants and more predatorial males around and about are a good idea for women……
Denise, I have asked you before to stop bringing my daughter into your posed scenarios. Please stop doing that, I find it upsetting.
Ari, do NOT idolize how society dealt with rape in earlier years. Sure, it was a capital crime in some cases, but you weren’t likely to get a conviction. If you weren’t a white, virginal young woman who hadn’t gone somewhere alone, or drank, or spoke to the man (or other men) who raped you, you might get a conviction. Other than that, probably not. If you had a history of “promiscuity”, if you were a minority, if you had drank at the time of the rape, if other people had seen you speaking to or flirting with the rapist or other men, you would be more likely to be blamed and vilified than get a conviction. Victims were put on trial, their entire lives fair game. Not to mention, spousal rape wasn’t illegal, date rape was impossible to convict, and if you were a dude raped by another dude? Forget it, you would just get accused of being gay and no one would see prison time. Child sexual abuse and rape, especially incest, was also extremely hard to convict and incest especially was ignored. I am not saying that how our society handles sex crimes right now is good, because it’s terrible, but no, in the fifties and sixties we handled them a lot worse.
ari says:
August 8, 2012 at 10:29 am
when abortion was illegal in most states, rape was a capital crime. the two went hand in hand. California and New York legalize abortion and defined dow the consequences of rape at the same time- the late sixties, early seventies.
Kinsey had a road-show with made up statistics about how rape never harmed a woman, how she recovered so easily. The possible child would, of course, be aborted, since it was now legal, in the new, compassionate era of baby-in-a-blender.
Before that, rape was a crime that men could be killed for committing, since he’d most likely ruined an innocent young woman’s life. Now, imprisonment has a time limit, and there are enough rapists in prison to practice their trade on other men- debasing other prisoners even further- and then getting out and continuing to wreak their destruction on civilians.
If you think more dead infants and more predatorial males around and about are a good idea for women……
(Denise) I saw an episode of “Parole Board Oklahoma” that featured a rapist applying for parole. For about a year prior to the crime, he had talked with his uncle about how “it might be fun to kidnap a woman and rape her for 2 or 3 days.” A member of the parole board asked, “Why did you want to rape?”
The prisoner answered, “I don’t know.” He couldn’t come up with any explanation at all other than thinking “it might be fun.”
As soon as he said, “I don’t know,” I thought, “He’s not getting out. Even applying for parole is a waste of time if he can’t even come up with a reason why he did this.” He said they planned to hold the woman for 2 or 3 days and then release her. “There wouldn’t have been no killing,” he said. However, there’s no way to know for sure since the victim escaped.
There was no mention of her getting pregnant from the rape.
The parole board ruled he can’t even apply again for TWENTY YEARS! He said in bewilderment, “That’s a whole lot of time for not killing anyone.” However, he also said, “I brought this on myself.”
The rapist had no insight whatsoever into the reason for his actions. Insight isn’t that MUCH but it’s a necessary 1st step. You have to have some idea of WHY if you’re going to give the slightest reassurance you won’t reoffend.
By the time he is released, if he ever is, he may well be too old to harm anyone.
Why not take the best of both worlds? Harsh penalties like they used to be, AND actually giving the victims a fair hearing? I think that’s a great compromise.
Also, I just realized PRO-ABORTS DERAILED THIS THREAD AGAIN!
Please, what is the actual percentage of abortions performed for life-saving purposes? Even medical reasons PLUS rape aren’t even a double-digit percentage of the abortions performed every year. So please, keep it to ELECTIVE ABORTIONS, m’kay? Because you KNOW that’s exactly what we’re talking about. Nice try though. ;)
What I see, is three confident, strong, smart women that believe strongly in being pro-choice. Being pro-choice is supporting birth control for families, and believing that the choice to end a pregnancy is a private decision. Being pro-choice is believing in reproductive rights for all women. Not every woman will get an abortion, butat least it is an option that women can choose those woman are proud that they can make a decision for their own health without having to consider what other people think about it. They had their children because they wanted children. Not everybody wants children or can afford them. Being pro-choice, I am not a monster like many of you would like to think. REALLY believing in something means you don’t care what other think.You’re willing to fight for what you believe, I am pro-choice and Istand with planned parenthood, and I will continue to stand with them for as long as I live.
“Once again, the belief that the anti-abortion movement is a radical quasi-Christian cult is underscored. “
Forget underscored; it’s untrue. It’d be like saying the abolitionist movement was a radical quasi-Christian cult, since the driving forces behind the abolitionist movement (at least in the U.S.), were the religious (i.e., Quakers).
“It’s that kind of thinking, which resulted in the persecution and murder of those who disagreed with the Roman church, that caused the Protestant Reformation.”
No, it’s not.
It’s that kind of thinking that generated millenia of anti-Semitic persecution of the Jews – persecution that culminated in the Holocaust.”
I thought that was because the Nazis passed an intricate set of legal codes rendering the Jews “non-persons” (*hint hint, wink wink, nudge nudge*).
But your dismissal of other faith traditions underscores, once again, why your movement, in its “exclusivity,” alienates so many people.”
It may alienate people, but it apparently alienates far fewer people than does the pro-choice movement.
“The idea that there is only one valid religious tradition is both ridiculous and demeaning. “
If I’m a Celtic druid and follow the practices of old (human sacrifice and cannibalism), will you afford me the same “freedom” that you seemingly demand I allow to others?
What I see, is three confident, strong, smart women that believe strongly in being pro-choice.
The fact that you see three women in the photo above, speaks volumes, Sydney. Your vision is clouded in more ways than one.
We oppose objectifying little girls here.
The idea that there is only one valid religious tradition is both ridiculous and demeaning.
CC, That is just plain stupid. If you believe something, and someone else believes something that is mutually exclusive to your belief, one of you is right and the other is wrong. If you don’t think your belief is right, then why the heck would you believe it!?
Your own argument is a perfect example. You believe “The idea that there is only one valid religious tradition is both ridiculous and demeaning.” I believe you are wrong. Guess which one of us is right.
xalisae says:
August 8, 2012 at 10:54 am
Why not take the best of both worlds? Harsh penalties like they used to be, AND actually giving the victims a fair hearing? I think that’s a great compromise.
(Denise) The penalties for rape NOW are harsh. That rapist who went before the parole board and couldn’t give an explanation for his crime won’t even get another hearing for TWO DECADES.
His victim had a chance to talk to the parole board. She pointed out that she lives only 20 miles from his family and is scared if he is released.
Andrew, CC and all her moral relativist buddies were absent for Logic 101, clearly.
Sydney, I love what you said! Please check out my blog and look me up on facebook through my fb page A Thought of Her Own!
http://www.athoughtofherown.blogspot.com
Sydney: Being pro-choice is believing in reproductive rights for all women.
Except for the 600,000 unborn women that are killed in the US each year.
Cara, Love this on your blog: We can all co-exist
You forgot to add “except those of us who are choiced out of existence by our mothers”
How old where you when you aborted your baby?
sorry X, I’m half Irish too. No offense aganist Irish people…
A Thought of Her Own!
Is it lonely in there by itself? XD
“Carla, if God FORBID, my daughter was raped, or faced a grim diagnosis for her baby, yes…I would ABSOLUTELY support the choice she made.”
Would you also support the death penalty for the rapist?
I mean, if a child should die for the crime her father committed, should the criminal himself also face death for his crime?
There is no such thing as little girls getting pregnant. It is physically impossible. Only sexually mature females can get pregnant. You may not like it that the range of human variation means that a tiny fraction of 10 year olds will be able to conceive, but there it is. If you can get pregnant, you are sexually mature. Just plain old nature.
“If you believe something, and someone else believes something that is mutually exclusive to your belief, one of you is right and the other is wrong.”
Obviously, when dealing with empirical data, there is a right and a wrong. While there are holocaust deniers, the holocaust did happen. But in dealing with ideas that can’t be proven such as belief in God, everyone is entitled to their own opinion which is based on faith, not science. (Creationists are entitled to their belief but because it’s not grounded in science, it’s a religious opinion)
But here’s a question. Why is your faith the only, true faith? And if it is, as I suspect Christianity, are the Jews empirically wrong for not accepting Jesus.?
Cara and Sydney-
Tell me why my child’s life in utero was something I should’ve been allowed by law to treat as disposable. Tell me why my crappy circumstances should have justified any decision to kill my child I might have made, should I have been so morally bankrupt. And then, as mothers (my pardon to Sydney if she is not one), tell me why my child-now that she has grown up a great deal-should not be horrified by me for attempting to legitimize such a position.
”You may not like it that the range of human variation means that a tiny fraction of 10 year olds will be able to conceive, but there it is.”
But they do. When I worked child protective, we had a 10 year old who was impregnated by her father. Happy, happy, joy, joy.
“It’s that kind of thinking, which resulted in the persecution and murder of those who disagreed with the Roman church, that caused the Protestant Reformation.”
“No, it’s not”
The Inquisition was directed against those who didn’t accept the dogma of the Catholic Church. The persecution and marginalizing of Jews, over the course of history, was a result of Catholic teaching about their role in Jesus’ death and their not accepting Jesus as their Savior. Read the “Sword of Constantine” by Frank Carroll. It documents it all in detail.
And Courtnay, what does your Episcopalian priest neighbor say when you tell him that he follows a false religion which is obviously followed by lots of folks around the Sewanee campus.
And now we face the marginalization of the unborn, by people who persist in believing that there is liberation thru death.
Read unPlanned Parenthood by our friend Abby. It documents it all in detail.
Hippie, yes..I support the death penalty, as well as assisted suicide.
The front of their shirt reads: “Women Are Watching”
The back should read: Other women and children suffer and die from Abortion.
Yeah, nice shirt ladies.
Praxedes, I’ve never had an abortion….which you would know if you actually READ the blog, instead of picking and choosing which parts to read.
hippie says:
August 8, 2012 at 12:58 pm
“Carla, if God FORBID, my daughter was raped, or faced a grim diagnosis for her baby, yes…I would ABSOLUTELY support the choice she made.”
Would you also support the death penalty for the rapist?
I mean, if a child should die for the crime her father committed, should the criminal himself also face death for his crime?
(Denise) The penalties for forcible rape are quite severe. Men have spent decades in prison for this crime. Repeat rapists and those who commit this crime with aggravating circumstances can receive life imprisonment.
Forcible rape WAS in fact punishable by death in this country until several years ago and IS punishable by the death penalty in some places today.
The embryo or fetus is not receiving a penalty for a crime. The problem is that the embryo or fetus MUST have the female’s body as a life support system in order to survive. There is no way — at the present time — to transplant from one female’s womb to another or to grow within an artificial womb. (This may well be possible someday.)
If a girl or woman who is fertile has just been raped, the LAST thing she wants to hear is that she is pregnant. She is apt to be absolutely terrified at the possibility of being pregnant by the attacker.
I once read of a woman who begged a rapist, “Please talk to me for just a bit so I’ll know you’re human!” The two conversed for a bit. The man still raped her but — I’m aware Jill Stanek doesn’t want me to be graphic — he raped her in a manner that could not impregnate her. That wasn’t much of a favor — but it WAS better than the alternative. She was terribly traumatized but did not have to worry that she might have been pregnant as a result of the attack.
The question here is not one of punishing the embryo or fetus. I can tell you this: a fertile girl or woman who has just been raped is certain to breathe a sigh of relief if her menstrual period is on time. She does not want a big belly and the other things that go along with pregnancy as a result of the attack.
Obviously, when dealing with empirical data, there is a right and a wrong. While there are holocaust deniers, the holocaust did happen. But in dealing with ideas that can’t be proven such as belief in God, everyone is entitled to their own opinion which is based on faith, not science. (Creationists are entitled to their belief but because it’s not grounded in science, it’s a religious opinion)
It seems like what you’re saying is that any belief in the supernatural is objectively false because it can’t be proven. Umm… what? Provable or not, there is objective truth. It might be what atheists believe, Christians believe, Buddhists believe, or no one believes.
But here’s a question. Why is your faith the only, true faith? And if it is, as I suspect Christianity, are the Jews empirically wrong for not accepting Jesus.?
My faith is the only true faith because it is the only one that answers all the questions of existence, suffering, and joy (among others). And yeah, if my faith is true (and I whole-heartedly believe it is), then the Jews have it wrong about Jesus. If I don’t believe that, I don’t believe anything.
Oh well, here goes. Slow day at the Library.
CC, funny you should ask. I just got back from having lunch with him and my husband a little while ago. Last night, we were at the same new faculty BBQ and enjoyed a short visit. I love my Episcopalian neighbor(s). His religion is not false as long as he claims Jesus as the one, true Son of and path to God. And I’m pretty sure he does. Where he errs is his stance on abortion, and I’m really sure I’ve told you before, he knows exactly where/how I stand.
Either abortion is the killing of a human being, worthy of value, ot it’s not. Those opposite positions cannot exist simultaneously and be true. Even his golden retriever Henry gets this (my favorite member of the family, for sure).
cc ~ Not sure if I should respond to your new questions or your objection to my original comment, as they are very different. I never said anyone wasn’t entitled to their beliefs, as I definitely believe anyone should be allowed to believe what they want, even if they are wrong. But when confronted with a discussion or opportuniity, I will state mine. If I did not think (know) I am right, why do I believe it at all?
What Andrew Ensley, Courtnay, and Some Guy said (quite well) …
And let me add: my original comment was to the effect that God is not a bully for giving women uteruses and the blessing of a baby. But I am persecuting those who think He is by calling that belief wrong, tantamount to the hate of the holocaust and other murderous atrocities?! Too funny.
Still waiting, Cara and Sydney. Any day now.
@Courtney: You could believe abortion “is the killing of a human being, worthy of value” but believe that the special conditions of pregnancy are such that outlawing abortion is not justified. Things would be a lot different if it were possible for the embryo or fetus to live without the special costs imposed on the pregnant girl or woman but that is not presently possible.
Cara says:
August 8, 2012 at 1:27 pm
Hippie, yes..I support the death penalty, as well as assisted suicide.
(Denise) Would you support the death penalty for rape if the victim is not killed?
X, for proabort women to make a direct connection between you having a less than ideal pregnancy situation to you now thriving child would mean their whole pardign would have to go thru a major cosmic shift. Why, that might even mean (gasp) that abortiontruly stops a beating human heart! (even the rapists’ babies!)
Cara; I teach in public schools. PP is all over the high school, the middle school, and even the elementary schools.
At the middle and high schools, they have posters like ‘Show your strength, get yourself tested.’ I can’t say anything – teachers can’t – but I love it when kids walk by and say ‘showing your strength would be not having to be tested!’
Unfortunately, we send children these messages that sex is a viable option for them – and it is not. We offer them condoms – which is another message encouraging them to be sexually active. And when something invariably fails, PP is prepared to ‘clean up the mess’ because it’s all about ‘choice.’ Some states – like mine – don’t even have parental notification or consent. This means that the (usually) underage girl can be dropped off by her often adult sexual partner and have the ‘problem’ taken care of without a fuss. Yeah, this would be condoning statutory rape, wouldn’t it? How many men have preyed on young women and had the ‘evidence’ destroyed?
I would wager a lot.
As to CC’s many vociferousness comments, there are consequences for actions. People will die without sufficient shelter or food – these are basic human needs. Sex is not a basic human right or need. It is a choice. And - sorry – I shouldn’t be on the hook for paying for people’s reckless decisions. Especially when that ‘choice’ includes destroying a human life. But it’s not a human, it’s a parasite, you say? How heartless of you. A puppy is just an animal, it’s not human either. A tree is just a tree and a hook-tailed swallow egg is just a bird’s egg. But liberals – some wearing their PP t-shirts just like those poor deluded ladies are wearing – yell and scream about the destruction of innocent life.
Delusional much? Of course you are. And selfish as well. You will never have to be directly responsible for all those puppies and kittens (even if you send a check). You don’t have to deal with those chicks or trees or whatever. You might find yourself being responsible for a life that you helped create.
And that really cramps those ‘Girl’s Night Outs’ now doesn’t it?
@ John: Why would outlawing abortion cramp “Girls Night Outs”? It might make girls and women more afraid of pregnancy and therefore of MALE company. If a girl or woman is extremely scared of getting pregnant, she might be more likely to prefer the company of her own sex.
One way I believe MEN can do much to decrease abortion is by seeking their intimate relations among those women who are clearly post-menopausal. A man who goes for wrinkles and grey hair can help decrease the business of the abortionists.
CC, the topic of life, like the topic of religion, is not just a question for science but includes questions of value and meaning. A better question to ask to people to ask what the value and why? Or what gives their life meaning and why?
With these questions in mind we can see the differences between the pro-life position and the pro-abortion position. By asking these questions we can also begin to see the overlap between the position of the pro-life person and religious person. Both the pro-lifer and the religious person share many values such as a respect for all human life.
CC, what do you value and why do you value it. What is the criteria that you use in order to value something? What makes you certain that a person’s level of sentience is the criterion by which value human life? Why do you think that women being allowed to abort fetuses is important and valuable? On what grounds do you justify denying the embryo the same rights as a grown human being? Why should your particular values be enshrined in law versus a pro-life person’s values?
@ Tyler: I personally think the most “important and valuable” think we can do for the female sex is stop unwanted pregnancy. The news of pregnancy should be greeted with JOY. When it is, we can kiss abortion good-bye.
Gee, Courtnay, where’d they go? I’m gettin’ lonely. ;_;
Maybe they had some deathscorting to do.
What strikes me the most about this photo is all the people missing.
Think about it…three generations.
There should have been at least 4-6 other faces there, but there only three.
Where are those missing?!
I would say these three women are the “survivors” of three generations.
Those who were allowed to live!
The simple truth of the matter is that when a girl child hits puberty, there is a great deal of fear that she will have a problem pregnancy. This is why parents tend to worry about girls much more than boys.
You want her to avoid sexual exploitation.
You want her to avoid a problem pregnancy altogether.
Yes, that is where the focus ought to be: on preventing a problem pregnancy rather than about what happens if she gets pregnant. I hope that a time will come when all pregnancies are welcomed with joy. Planned PREGNANCY should be the goal.
Denise Noe said “Planned PREGNANCY should be the goal.”
Denise, I disagree.
The plan sometimes is not us to make, but God’s.
A child born from an act of violence is not “our plan”, but definetely he/she is God’s mysterious plan.
People unexpectedly born even from acts of violence actually bring so much good and joy to live to the family and the world!
On our part we need to be responsible and respectful with our relationships and our bodies. and be always open to God’s Love for us.
Richard says:
August 9, 2012 at 8:15 pm
Denise Noe said “Planned PREGNANCY should be the goal.”
Denise, I disagree.The plan sometimes is not us to make, but God’s.A child born from an act of violence is not “our plan”, but definetely he/she is God’s mysterious plan.People unexpectedly born even from acts of violence actually bring so much good and joy to live to the family and the world!On our part we need to be responsible and respectful with our relationships and our bodies. and be always open to God’s Love for us.
(Denise) The reason Planned Pregnancy (rather than Planned Parenthood) must be the goal is that girls and women who WANT and PLAN to get pregnant are EXTREMELY unlikely to seek abortions.
OTOH, at least SOME — such as Eleanor Cooney — will inevitably abort if they get pregnant. Her fetus was doomed at conception.
A woman who wants to get pregnant and eagerly looks forward to the birth is apt to get good pre-natal care and take good care of herself during the pregnancy. This works toward a baby that will be healthy when it is happily welcomed into the world.
Planned pregnancy is what will radically decrease abortion and perhaps come close to eliminating it entirely.
Denise
I agree each pregnancy should be greeted with Joy. Everyone should be grateful for and want all pregnancies. No pregnancies should ever be considered unwanted. IMO, there is no technology that can bring about this change in a couple’s worldview or intheir hearts. Women, working in agreement with the the Holy Spirit is the only way that zero unwanted pregnancies will be achieved. It is only the grace of the Holy Spirit faciliating a change of heart and a change of mindset in the couple (or mother) that will allow the couple to understand that they are being blessed when the Mother becomes pregnant. Each couple needs to have their hearts opened so that they see that God is blessing them with a pregnancy. This change in heart will result in a new respect for their own bodies as well as giving them a respect for their baby’s body. It will result in the couple exhibiting a humility toward the awesome power of God, and the gift of new human life.
IMO, I see no problem in planning pregnancy, but how and why a pregnancy is planned are also important factors to consider. If a couple chooses technological ways to plan their pregnancies, they no longer utilize the natural rhythms that God designed in the woman’s body in order to help them unite in a natural unihibited and unobstructed way.
Abstinence prior to marriage and chastity within marriage are the best ways to ensure that each pregnancy is always wanted. The desire to have children is always good, but those other carnal desires are what the institution of marriage makes pardonable. Sadly, the redemptive quality of marriage is lost on many of our generation.
If couples are educated and taught how to plan their pregnancies for the longterm, and not in only in the short-term, we will have given our society some serious help. The longtern pregnancy planning tools of abstinence and marriage help make our society more civil, our families more stable, and our children better supported.
xalisae, You’re the type of person that makes a civilized conversation about people’s differences IMPOSSIBLE. And that is why it’s pointless to carry on this conversation.
Denise,
I should also add that, to me, abortion is never a way that allows a woman or a couple to plan a pregnancy. IMO, abortion ends a pregnancy – abortion is not a planning tool.
Lol Cara… Nice cop out. What exactly was uncivilized?
Choosing not to argue with you isn’t a cop out. And I didn’t say anything was uncivilized. I said that people like that make civilized conversations impossible.
You guys are NEVER going to change people’s hearts and minds with the approach you’re taking now. You have to be willing to listen, to be civil and sensitive to another person’s view, and go from there. It’s not rocket science. It’s common decency.
Choosing not to argue with you isn’t a cop out.
Cop out: Opt out, choose not to do something, as out of fear of failing. Why won’t you answer xalisae’s questions?
I didn’t say anything was uncivilized. I said that people like that make civilized conversations impossible.
I’m at a loss then, how does civilized behavior make civilized conversations impossible? Surely, you intended to imply that the conversation was uncivilized in some way.
(Denise) Suppose abortion was illegal. Your daughter was raped and couldn’t stand the thought of bringing the pregnancy to term. She committed suicide or was found dead in a motel room from an illegal abortion.
If that happened, could you see why people who love the women in their lives might favor legal abortion?
Denise, this is a very important scenario to discuss. I think the best and perhaps the only thing that can be done is to prevent this scenario from happening. IMO, prevention is accomplished by communicating quite regularly with one’s children openly and honestly. I think parents should share their values about life and respect for the unborn. But, as your scenario makes clear, parents need to make sure that their daughters understand that they love them no matter what and that a pregnancy would not change their feelings toward them. To me, parents need to be actively involved in the lives of their children, constantly showing their concern, while prudently fostering their independence. If a parents suspects that their child would not talk to them about such a scenario they have been given a red flag, an indication that they need to talk to their daughter more.
A bad thing to do for a daughter who is not communicative, is to give her that idea that you are overly permissive by providing condoms or taking in advance to PP.. To me, doing these things, would send three signals to the daughter: 1) the parent doesn’t really care about her; and 2) that the parents doesn’t trust her daughter’s judgement and integrity; and 3) that the parent of the daughter doesn’t want grandchildren. The effects of third signal on the daughter seems to be lost by the majority of people who promote contraception and abortion. The possibility of the daughter receiving a negative message about pregnancy when a parents supports abortion and contraception is very high, and is definitely, just as confusing as when a parent instructs their child on the virtues of pre-marital abstinence while celebrating childbirth in the context of mariage.
I said that people like that make civilized conversations impossible.
People like what?
I listened to you. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have been able to ask you the questions I did. How was I not civil? Why should I be sensitive to a view that demands I look upon killing a child in utero as something which is acceptable? I know it’s not rocket science to recognize gestating children for the human beings deserving of basic human rights that they are. I know it is common decency to protect them rather than support the legality of their killing. What say you?
Cara and Sydney-Tell me why my child’s life in utero was something I should’ve been allowed by law to treat as disposable. Tell me why my crappy circumstances should have justified any decision to kill my child I might have made, should I have been so morally bankrupt. And then, as mothers (my pardon to Sydney if she is not one), tell me why my child-now that she has grown up a great deal-should not be horrified by me for attempting to legitimize such a position.
You should have been allowed by law to spare your child from suffering if for some horrible reason, you needed to consider that option. You should have had the option in case you were raped and unable, mentally, to carry the pregnancy to term. You should have had that option in case your OWN health was at risk and you had other children at home to take care of. There are about 1,000,002 unfortunate reasons that this should be a legal option for you.
You should have been allowed by law to spare your child from suffering if for some horrible reason, you needed to consider that option.
Really? By any means necessary? If I lived in a cabin in the woods with no means of leaving, with no method of contacting civilization, and I sensed there was to be some sort of suffering in the near future for my children and I (even though I was unable to substantiate this sense), you believe it should be legal to kill my children?
You should have had the option in case you were raped and unable, mentally, to carry the pregnancy to term.
A mother’s mental state should be a determining factor in whether or not it is legal for a mother to kill her child? Or is it the fact that the child’s father was guilty of a crime which grants sufficient justification for killing that child? Why do you posit this?
You should have had that option in case your OWN health was at risk and you had other children at home to take care of.
I don’t think anyone would dispute you, here, but I’m afraid we’re not speaking of any sort of life-saving medical care, but elective abortion, which is an entirely different beast altogether.
There are about 1,000,002 unfortunate reasons that this should be a legal option for you.
But you’ve only listed three here that I can see, and two of those I find highly disagreeable. I’m afraid you’ll have to be more specific.
Oh, and I was really hoping you would answer this for me in particular:
tell me why my child-now that she has grown up a great deal-should not be horrified by me for attempting to legitimize such a position.
Since I’ve given it a great deal of thought, myself, and I know that if my mother ever came to me attempting to justify such a practice in regard to my own life, I would be absolutely mortified.
Really? By any means necessary? If I lived in a cabin in the woods with no means of leaving, with no method of contacting civilization, and I sensed there was to be some sort of suffering in the near future for my children and I (even though I was unable to substantiate this sense), you believe it should be legal to kill my children?
Really? You’re going there? Do you realize how ignorant and close minded that makes you sound? If you were in a cabin in the woods with no means of leaving, you wouldn’t even KNOW something was wrong with your pregnancy or your child.
I don’t know why your child should or should not be “horrified” by her mother supporting abortion. But as a mother myself, I can tell you that I won’t be upset if my daughter goes the pro-life route. But I do hope that she understands that my own position has nothing to do with her, because the thought of aborting her never crossed my mind. I would hope that your child would be able to see that, as well.
Tyler wrote: Abstinence prior to marriage and chastity within marriage are the best ways to ensure that each pregnancy is always wanted.
Wow, what a boring life you must lead Tyler my boy. Sex for procreation only?? Man what a joke.
Really? You’re going there?
Going where? To the logical conclusion of the notions you have? Well…I’m trying to…
Do you realize how ignorant and close minded that makes you sound?
Do you always resort to ad hominems when posed with analogous hypotheticals?
If you were in a cabin in the woods with no means of leaving, you wouldn’t even KNOW something was wrong with your pregnancy or your child.
I wasn’t talking about children in utero. I was talking about my post-natal children.
I don’t know why your child should or should not be “horrified” by her mother supporting abortion.
Okay. I’ll tell you why I would be, then. Because it means my mom thinks that it should’ve been socially acceptable and perfectly legal to have me killed at a certain point in my life. That disturbs me. My mom is supposed to love and protect me regardless, not throw me out like yesterday’s New York Times if she so chooses. Her feeling that my continued survival was optional on her part is a huge breech of parental trust.
But I do hope that she understands that my own position has nothing to do with her, because the thought of aborting her never crossed my mind. I would hope that your child would be able to see that, as well.
If you’re a mother, and you support legal abortion, your position has EVERYTHING to do with her, whether or not you thought of doing it to her personally, because you thought your option and ability to do it should’ve been LEGAL. I would hope that you would be able to see that. The thought of aborting my daughter was something that was FORCED to be on my mind by her father. Now…how does that change anything?
Tyler says:
August 9, 2012 at 10:36 pm
(Denise) Suppose abortion was illegal. Your daughter was raped and couldn’t stand the thought of bringing the pregnancy to term. She committed suicide or was found dead in a motel room from an illegal abortion.If that happened, could you see why people who love the women in their lives might favor legal abortion?
Denise, this is a very important scenario to discuss. I think the best and perhaps the only thing that can be done is to prevent this scenario from happening.
(Denise) Exactly. Regardless of whether abortion is legal or illegal, we need to work to decrease the number of girls and women who SEEK abortions. Women should be overjoyed to learn they are pregnant. They should look forward to the birth, get good pre-natal care and take good care of themselves when pregnant. The fact is that MANY girls and women find themselves pregnant when they don’t want to be. As a society, we should be doing better.
<<
IMO, prevention is accomplished by communicating quite regularly with one’s children openly and honestly. I think parents should share their values about life and respect for the unborn. But, as your scenario makes clear, parents need to make sure that their daughters understand that they love them no matter what and that a pregnancy would not change their feelings toward them. To me, parents need to be actively involved in the lives of their children, constantly showing their concern, while prudently fostering their independence. If a parents suspects that their child would not talk to them about such a scenario they have been given a red flag, an indication that they need to talk to their daughter more.
A bad thing to do for a daughter who is not communicative, is to give her that idea that you are overly permissive by providing condoms or taking in advance to PP. To me, doing these things, would send three signals to the daughter: 1) the parent doesn’t really care about her; and 2) that the parents doesn’t trust her daughter’s judgement and integrity; and 3) that the parent of the daughter doesn’t want grandchildren. The effects of third signal on the daughter seems to be lost by the majority of people who promote contraception and abortion. The possibility of the daughter receiving a negative message about pregnancy when a parents supports abortion and contraception is very high, and is definitely, just as confusing as when a parent instructs their child on the virtues of pre-marital abstinence while celebrating childbirth in the context of mariage.
(Denise) I don’t think it’s good to communicate to a high school age girl that it’s “OK” for have a sexual partner. However, she should always at least have the option of being on some sort of contraception to prevent pregnancy through rape or impulsive consensual action.
In the case of girls who are mentally retarded, it seems to me that any prudent and realistic parent would want her on contraception. She should still be very carefully watched to try to protect her from sexual exploitation but such girls are routinely targeted by sexual predators.
Parents who care about their daughters recognize that a young woman’s feelings are extremely powerful and that her judgment may in fact be imperfect. Even if she “Just Says No,” there is always the possibility of rape. As I’ve pointed out previously, any fertile girl or woman who has just been attacked does not want to hear that she is pregnant by her attacker. If she’s on contraceptives, she won’t have to face the Hobson’s Choice that rape can lead to.
I believe in courtship and in reviving the custom of chaperoned dating. When I’ve said this, some people thought I was joking or parodying conservative Christians. My friend Eleanor Cooney got pregnant simply because she was 17, the boy was a little younger, the two happened to be alone together and, in her words, “did something stupid.” Her psychological inability to carry to term doomed the fetus from conception. I’m for preventing that type of conception.
It is possible to give teen girls very negative messages about pregnancy per se which may not be good since, after all, we want to continue the species. When I was growing up, it seemed like I never heard of pregnancy as a good thing. It was always that some girl was “in trouble” and was “a disappointment.”
@ X: Emotions or feelings are MOTIVATORS. Wanting a baby is important because it MOTIVATES the woman to CARRY it. Embryos and fetuses don’t live to be born unless the girl or woman CARRIES. If she dies — or is absolutely determined to eject the unborn — there is no carrying to birth.
X: “not throw me out like yesterday’s New York Times”
For the last 10 years, yesterday’s NYT was actually worth MORE than today’s, if we go by their stock trend. ;-)
rasqual-
none are worth much, as far as I’m concerned. ;P
All the news that’s fit for birdcages.
Jake says:
August 9, 2012 at 11:32 pm
Tyler wrote: Abstinence prior to marriage and chastity within marriage are the best ways to ensure that each pregnancy is always wanted.Wow, what a boring life you must lead Tyler my boy. Sex for procreation only?? Man what a joke.
(Denise) I know people with no sexual interest at all. Their lives aren’t necessarily boring.
@JackBorsch: I’m sorry I upset you.
One of the problems with being the parent of a female child is that as soon as she hits puberty, you fear that belly is going to swell. Support for legal abortion is to a large extent based on the fears people have about their daughters.
Yes, yes, the goal should not be about abortion but avoiding the problem pregnancy in the first place. As I’ve said before, a girl or woman is NOT PREGNANT, does not abort.
@ Tyler: I have an asexual male friend who has many interests. He is an amateur pilot. He enjoys computers and science fiction. He writes science fiction and has been published.
I have an asexual female friend whom I consider one of the best critics of my writing. She especially likes my true crime writing and I can always count on her for constructive criticism.
The fact is that most people CAN’T spend that much time on sexual activities. Life sans sex can be quite rich and full.
The possibility of the daughter receiving a negative message about pregnancy when a parents supports abortion and contraception is very high
I agree, Tyler. I know I got the message loud and clear from my ex’s mom when I was pregnant the first time. She’d say things like, “I’m too young to be a Grandma.” (She was 46 but one of those 46-year-olds that act/dress like a teen).
When I was about 8 months pregnant I finally stood up to her when she said it again. I replied, “If your son is old enough to get someone knocked-up, you’re old enough to be a Grandma.”
I should have told her off the first time but she gave me more opportunities down the road . . . . . (:
Prax-
women like that don’t really comprehend the values they’ve instilled in their sons until they have the chance to meet their grandchildren, thanks to women like us-and through none of their son’s doings. ;P *snicker*
Sometimes common sense skips a generation. And a first marriage too, I guess!
no, the fact that it takes two marriages isn’t any common sense gained by the son’s side of the family, it’s knowledge WE pick up from having to deal with those hedonistic idiots!!! When you’re raised properly, the notion that others in the world can be so sociopathic is a foreign one. XD
Negative messages about pregnancy can also come from a strong concern for a girl’s chastity.
Don’t you think it’s prudent to put a mentally retarded girl at puberty on contraception?
Of course, we must try to protect her from sexual exploitation and punish exploiters.
Denise Noe said “Don’t you think it’s prudent to put a mentally retarded girl at puberty on contraception?
Of course, we must try to protect her from sexual exploitation and punish exploiters. ”
Denise, this is a very hard topic. To start, I see the following big issues.
1. How do you define mental retardation?
2. Should you mandate contaception against a “retarded” persons’ will?
3. If a person is so “retarded” wouldn’t be best to protect him/her against sexual “predators” rather than ”contracept” them? In the end, it’s just like protecting young children against sexual predators.
I woulnd’t give a pill with the milk and breakfast to my 10 old daughter “just in case”.
Richard says:
August 10, 2012 at 9:59 am
Denise Noe said “Don’t you think it’s prudent to put a mentally retarded girl at puberty on contraception?
Of course, we must try to protect her from sexual exploitation and punish exploiters. ”
Denise, this is a very hard topic. To start, I see the following big issues.
1. How do you define mental retardation?
(Denise) I don’t have my own personal definition. I allow experts to define it.
<<2. Should you mandate contaception against a “retarded” persons’ will?
(Denise) This is distasteful but there could easily be a great problem here. The girl or young woman may not be able to understand the peril she is in. Even with retarded adults, guardians sometimes must make decisions for them.
3. If a person is so “retarded” wouldn’t be best to protect him/her against sexual “predators” rather than ”contracept” them? In the end, it’s just like protecting young children against sexual predators.
I woulnd’t give a pill with the milk and breakfast to my 10 old daughter “just in case”.
(Denise) Please believe when I say I don’t take this lightly. I was delighted with the verdicts in the Glen Ridge rape case. It sent a message loud and clear to possibly predatory teen boys and men that mentally disabled females are not a “sexual resource” for them.
The problem is that it simply may not be possible to watch a girl or young woman 24/7. Contraceptives could ensure that a bad situation does not become worse. It would NOT mean that an exploiter would be in any way excused.
(Denise) I don’t think it’s good to communicate to a high school age girl that it’s “OK” for have a sexual partner.
I agree.
However, she should always at least have the option of being on some sort of contraception to prevent pregnancy through rape or impulsive consensual action.
Although I think rape is evil, I disagree that fear of rape is a sufficent reason to request that your daughter go on contraception. If a parent can show their daughter that they love them and any future children they may have, the duaghter can be assured that good can conquer evil, that good can come from evil. The child conceived in the rape is an innocent human life and just as valuable as any other human being.
In the case of girls who are mentally retarded, it seems to me that any prudent and realistic parent would want her on contraception. She should still be very carefully watched to try to protect her from sexual exploitation but such girls are routinely targeted by sexual predators.
These fears and concerns are human; however, generally speaking, the dignity of the mentally handicapped person needs to be respected. He/she not be viewed as hindrance or a trouble maker. A change in perspective about the identity of the mentally handicapped person is challenging but it can be obtained.
Parents who care about their daughters recognize that a young woman’s feelings are extremely powerful and that her judgment may in fact be imperfect. Even if she “Just Says No,” there is always the possibility of rape. As I’ve pointed out previously, any fertile girl or woman who has just been attacked does not want to hear that she is pregnant by her attacker. If she’s on contraceptives, she won’t have to face the Hobson’s Choice that rape can lead to.
When I mentioned that communication is a good prevention tool I was primarily referring to its ability to help prevent suicide. However, it can also help a young woman/daughter change her perspective on the identity of a child conceived in rape.
I believe in courtship and in reviving the custom of chaperoned dating. When I’ve said this, some people thought I was joking or parodying conservative Christians. My friend Eleanor Cooney got pregnant simply because she was 17, the boy was a little younger, the two happened to be alone together and, in her words, “did something stupid.” Her psychological inability to carry to term doomed the fetus from conception. I’m for preventing that type of conception.
I agree. I just don’t think it should be done through contraception and/or abortion.
It is possible to give teen girls very negative messages about pregnancy per se which may not be good since, after all, we want to continue the species. When I was growing up, it seemed like I never heard of pregnancy as a good thing. It was always that some girl was “in trouble” and was “a disappointment.”
I agree that our society needs to foster a better, more mature, positive and healthy view of pregnancy. I am not opposed to continuing the human species; although, I equally support couples who want to adopt, couples who embrace celibacy and seek to raise spiritual children through good works, and celibates.
Negative messages about pregnancy can also come from a strong concern for a girl’s chastity.
Agreed. Communication is also key to overcomming the possibility of broadcasting this negative message. Both Chastity and Pregnancy are good, etc….
Tyler says:
August 10, 2012 at 1:22 pm
(Denise) I don’t think it’s good to communicate to a high school age girl that it’s “OK” for have a sexual partner.
I agree.
(Denise) It’s good to have an area of agreement.
However, she should always at least have the option of being on some sort of contraception to prevent pregnancy through rape or impulsive consensual action.
Although I think rape is evil, I disagree that fear of rape is a sufficent reason to request that your daughter go on contraception. If a parent can show their daughter that they love them and any future children they may have, the duaghter can be assured that good can conquer evil, that good can come from evil. The child conceived in the rape is an innocent human life and just as valuable as any other human being. >>
(Denise) Believe me, if a young girl has just been attacked, she is apt to be TERRIFIED of being pregnant by the rapist. She will invariably heave a sigh of relief when her menstrual period arrives.
I once read of a woman who was attacked and begged the man, “Please talk to me for awhile just so I’ll know you’re human.” They conversed.
He raped her anyway — but in a manner that guaranteed she wouldn’t get pregnant. That’s not a great favor — but it IS better than the alternative.
The fact is that most young women don’t want to get pregnant by the assailant in the sad event they get raped. They would be glad to be on contraception.
Parents should at least DISCUSS with any girl in puberty the possibility of being on contraception so that if she is raped, she will be protected from pregnancy.
In the case of girls who are mentally retarded, it seems to me that any prudent and realistic parent would want her on contraception. She should still be very carefully watched to try to protect her from sexual exploitation but such girls are routinely targeted by sexual predators.
These fears and concerns are human; however, generally speaking, the dignity of the mentally handicapped person needs to be respected. He/she not be viewed as hindrance or a trouble maker. A change in perspective about the identity of the mentally handicapped person is challenging but it can be obtained.
Parents who care about their daughters recognize that a young woman’s feelings are extremely powerful and that her judgment may in fact be imperfect. Even if she “Just Says No,” there is always the possibility of rape. As I’ve pointed out previously, any fertile girl or woman who has just been attacked does not want to hear that she is pregnant by her attacker. If she’s on contraceptives, she won’t have to face the Hobson’s Choice that rape can lead to.
When I mentioned that communication is a good prevention tool I was primarily referring to its ability to help prevent suicide. However, it can also help a young woman/daughter change her perspective on the identity of a child conceived in rape.>>
(Denise) Don’t you believe one should at least discuss the option of contraception to prevent conception through rape?
I believe in courtship and in reviving the custom of chaperoned dating. When I’ve said this, some people thought I was joking or parodying conservative Christians. My friend Eleanor Cooney got pregnant simply because she was 17, the boy was a little younger, the two happened to be alone together and, in her words, “did something stupid.” Her psychological inability to carry to term doomed the fetus from conception. I’m for preventing that type of conception.
I agree. I just don’t think it should be done through contraception and/or abortion.>>
(Denise) Abortion is what happens after conception. No one who isn’t pregnant can abort. I want to prevent abortion by preventing pregnancies that aren’t welcomed. In Eleanor Cooney’s case, the fetus was doomed once conceived. The act leading to conception was impulsive. Thus, contraception would have prevented that abortion.
It is possible to give teen girls very negative messages about pregnancy per se which may not be good since, after all, we want to continue the species. When I was growing up, it seemed like I never heard of pregnancy as a good thing. It was always that some girl was “in trouble” and was “a disappointment.”
I agree that our society needs to foster a better, more mature, positive and healthy view of pregnancy. I am not opposed to continuing the human species; although, I equally support couples who want to adopt, couples who embrace celibacy and seek to raise spiritual children through good works, and celibates.
Negative messages about pregnancy can also come from a strong concern for a girl’s chastity.
Agreed. Communication is also key to overcomming the possibility of broadcasting this negative message. Both Chastity and Pregnancy are good, etc….
(Denise) I don’t oppose adoption but it has many negatives. Adoptees are 2-3% of the population — and 16% of serial murderers. They are also 15 times more likely than other people to murder 1 or both parents.
Open adoption may address some of the knottier difficulties of adoption but that really remains to be seen.
Just saw this:
@ X: Emotions or feelings are MOTIVATORS. Wanting a baby is important because it MOTIVATES the woman to CARRY it. Embryos and fetuses don’t live to be born unless the girl or woman CARRIES. If she dies — or is absolutely determined to eject the unborn — there is no carrying to birth.
Emotions and feelings are irrelevant to the pursuit of justice. Laws against crimes are motivators in and of themselves, and don’t really care what the people breaking those laws feel about the issue. Wrong is wrong, and people can emote all they like, then deal with the reality of law and the justice system.
x,
I meant the common sense can often be lacking in the first husband, and once the wife givess him the bum’s rush, the she makes sure the second one is worth the trouble! ;)
My apologies for the misunderstanding, Hans! You certainly are correct, though. A mistake like that is one scarcely made again, and I can attest that my hubby 2.0 is good as gold!
Denise) Believe me, if a young girl has just been attacked, she is apt to be TERRIFIED of being pregnant by the rapist. She will invariably heave a sigh of relief when her menstrual period arrives. I once read of a woman who was attacked and begged the man, “Please talk to me for awhile just so I’ll know you’re human.” They conversed. He raped her anyway — but in a manner that guaranteed she wouldn’t get pregnant. That’s not a great favor — but it IS better than the alternative. The fact is that most young women don’t want to get pregnant by the assailant in the sad event they get raped. They would be glad to be on contraception. Parents should at least DISCUSS with any girl in puberty the possibility of being on contraception so that if she is raped, she will be protected from pregnancy.
—-
I believe the “terror” that a woman or girl who is raped experiences as the result of learning that she is pregnant with the assailant’s progeny can altogether be eliminated if the parents talk to their daughter beforehand and remind her that all life, though biological, is the true progeny of God, and therefore, loved by Him. If the daughter can be taught to respect all human life no matter what the circumstances were that surrounded conception she will be better off. She will not only be not terrified of the prospect of being pregnant by a rapist, but she will also be given the benefit of not having to go through an abortion, and possibly regretting that irreversible decision for the rest of her life. She will also be in a better position to forgive the rapist and move on with her life after the rape if she accepts the new life granted to her.
—–
(Denise) Don’t you believe one should at least discuss the option of contraception to prevent conception through rape?
No. However, the parent should educate their child what other people use conctraception for and why. Parents should explain that other people are fearful of new life, and don’t believe sex is sacred and that sex should be reserved for their marriage partner. The parents should explain that sex results in pregnancy and that if you don’t won’t to get pregnant the best way to accomplish that is by not having sex at all. Any other “method” (the inadequacy of the english language rears its head) involves “risk” (again my lack of a better vocabulary) of pregnancy.
—–
(Denise) Abortion is what happens after conception. No one who isn’t pregnant can abort. I want to prevent abortion by preventing pregnancies that aren’t welcomed. In Eleanor Cooney’s case, the fetus was doomed once conceived. The act leading to conception was impulsive. Thus, contraception would have prevented that abortion.
Impulsive behavior can be constrained by good open dialogue about the consequences of sexual activity by the parents. Tennagers are not consigned to behaving in a rash manner. They, too, have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit and can put the gift of continence over the mouth of their heart/carnal desires/impulse to fornicate.
—-
(Denise) I don’t oppose adoption but it has many negatives. Adoptees are 2-3% of the population — and 16% of serial murderers. They are also 15 times more likely than other people to murder 1 or both parents.
Open adoption may address some of the knottier difficulties of adoption but that really remains to be seen.
If you statistics are true aborting children rather than placing children for adoption not only pushes evil forward in time but increases the likelihood of murder to 100% for children conceived in rape or impatience.
The problem isn’t with the children who are adopted, it is with the way the world views adopted children.
—-
Finally, it needs to be stated that in the event a raped woman does have an abortion she should be reassured that God will forgive her as soon as she comes to Him and asks for forgiveness. There is nothing that God’s mercy cannot heal:
http://rachelsvineyard.org/
Tyler says:
August 12, 2012 at 3:08 pm
Denise) Believe me, if a young girl has just been attacked, she is apt to be TERRIFIED of being pregnant by the rapist. She will invariably heave a sigh of relief when her menstrual period arrives. I once read of a woman who was attacked and begged the man, “Please talk to me for awhile just so I’ll know you’re human.” They conversed. He raped her anyway — but in a manner that guaranteed she wouldn’t get pregnant. That’s not a great favor — but it IS better than the alternative. The fact is that most young women don’t want to get pregnant by the assailant in the sad event they get raped. They would be glad to be on contraception. Parents should at least DISCUSS with any girl in puberty the possibility of being on contraception so that if she is raped, she will be protected from pregnancy.
—-
I believe the “terror” that a woman or girl who is raped experiences as the result of learning that she is pregnant with the assailant’s progeny can altogether be eliminated if the parents talk to their daughter beforehand and remind her that all life, though biological, is the true progeny of God, and therefore, loved by Him. If the daughter can be taught to respect all human life no matter what the circumstances were that surrounded conception she will be better off. She will not only be not terrified of the prospect of being pregnant by a rapist, but she will also be given the benefit of not having to go through an abortion, and possibly regretting that irreversible decision for the rest of her life. She will also be in a better position to forgive the rapist and move on with her life after the rape if she accepts the new life granted to her.
(Denise) Nonsense! She is terrified because pregnancy is one of the most intense experiences a person can experience. She can suffer morning sickness and many other discomfiting and painful effects. Her belly gets bigger and bigger and everyone around her sees that she is pregnant. She suffers through the hours and dangers of childbirth.
This is not to say that having a baby can’t be experienced as a beautiful blessing. But it is invariably intense and includes pain and dangers. No amount of spinning will change the fact that a female who has just been attacked does not want to go through this experience as the result of a rape. Someone who has just been assaulted doesn’t think, “Gee, I wonder if I’m pregnant by that rapist? Won’t it be wonderful to have my belly grow big and hear everyone say ‘Congratulations!’ because I’m going to have my rapist’s baby!”
I don’t care how much you sing the praises of having babies under all circumstances, the truth will always be that a woman wants to be pregnant by a man she loves, is married to, or at least by her own choice. No amount of gobblygook is going to lead to a time when women who’ve been raped have a menstrual period and say, “Darn! I was so looking forward to having a baby by that monster!”
OK. I’m all for forgiveness. We’ve got to do whatever we can so that rapists can be treated and hopefully reformed. But you’re never going to make girls and women not dread being impregnated after a rape.
That woman I told you about DID in fact prefer being raped in a manner that didn’t lead to pregnancy. I think almost any fertile woman would.
—–
(Denise) Don’t you believe one should at least discuss the option of contraception to prevent conception through rape?
No. However, the parent should educate their child what other people use conctraception for and why. Parents should explain that other people are fearful of new life, and don’t believe sex is sacred and that sex should be reserved for their marriage partner. The parents should explain that sex results in pregnancy and that if you don’t won’t to get pregnant the best way to accomplish that is by not having sex at all. Any other “method” (the inadequacy of the english language rears its head) involves “risk” (again my lack of a better vocabulary) of pregnancy.
(Denise) What I find odd, and rather frustrating, is not that you want to avoid abortion in cases of rape. What seems outrageous is that you don’t appear to want to avoid PREGNANCY itself in rape cases. I would think that any decent person wants to protect women from pregnancy through rape but you seem to think that if she gets raped, she might as well get pregnant as a result. Preventing the conception should be a goal but you don’t seem to share it. I find that baffling. It’s one thing to oppose aborting the pregnancy, quite another to oppose PREVENTING PREGNANCY IN THE FIRST PLACE.
—–
(Denise) Abortion is what happens after conception. No one who isn’t pregnant can abort. I want to prevent abortion by preventing pregnancies that aren’t welcomed. In Eleanor Cooney’s case, the fetus was doomed once conceived. The act leading to conception was impulsive. Thus, contraception would have prevented that abortion.Impulsive behavior can be constrained by good open dialogue about the consequences of sexual activity by the parents. Tennagers are not consigned to behaving in a rash manner. They, too, have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit and can put the gift of continence over the mouth of their heart/carnal desires/impulse to fornicate. >>
(Denise) She and the boy were alone together. Should we at least try to prevent young people of opposite sexes from being alone together?
—-(Denise) I don’t oppose adoption but it has many negatives. Adoptees are 2-3% of the population — and 16% of serial murderers. They are also 15 times more likely than other people to murder 1 or both parents.Open adoption may address some of the knottier difficulties of adoption but that really remains to be seen.
If you statistics are true aborting children rather than placing children for adoption not only pushes evil forward in time but increases the likelihood of murder to 100% for children conceived in rape or impatience.
The problem isn’t with the children who are adopted, it is with the way the world views adopted children.
(Denise) No, the problem is that many adopted children are very troubled by the question of their origins.
The choices aren’t adoption or abortion. Adoption can’t even happen before birth.
The proper goal should be pregnancies that are wanted and welcomed.
@ Tyler and many others: You don’t seem interested even in ways to PREVENT pregnancy through rape. One reason this is disturbing is that just accepting rape pregnancies means that force will continue to be an effective means for men to continue their genetic material through the system. They will have a pretty good chance of siring children through rape.
This disturbs me as I don’t believe men should be able to continue their genetic material in this horrible manner.
@ Tyler and many others: You don’t seem interested even in ways to PREVENT pregnancy through rape. One reason this is disturbing is that just accepting rape pregnancies means that force will continue to be an effective means for men to continue their genetic material through the system. They will have a pretty good chance of siring children through rape.
This disturbs me as I don’t believe men should be able to continue their genetic material in this horrible manner.
Half of the genetic material is the mother’s. However, each person’s DNA is unique. From a spiritual perspective, the uniqueness of each person (even identical twins) is a gift from God. I think if a person looks at children from only a material perspective that person is bound to foster a negative attitude toward the value of children who were conceived as a result of a rape.
Tyler says:
August 13, 2012 at 8:16 am
@ Tyler and many others: You don’t seem interested even in ways to PREVENT pregnancy through rape. One reason this is disturbing is that just accepting rape pregnancies means that force will continue to be an effective means for men to continue their genetic material through the system. They will have a pretty good chance of siring children through rape. This disturbs me as I don’t believe men should be able to continue their genetic material in this horrible manner.
Half of the genetic material is the mother’s. However, each person’s DNA is unique. From a spiritual perspective, the uniqueness of each person (even identical twins) is a gift from God. I think if a person looks at children from only a material perspective that person is bound to foster a negative attitude toward the value of children who were conceived as a result of a rape.
(Denise) So you don’t support any measures to prevent pregnancies as a result of rape?
You believe rape should continue as an effective means for men to sire children and pass on their genetics?
Honestly, if your wife or daughter were raped and she got her menstrual period soon afterward, would you be disappointed that they weren’t pregnant by the rapist?
I find this attitude appalling. It is one thing to say women should be forced to carry and give birth to their rapists’ babies and another to suggest we shouldn’t even attempt to decrease the chances of a raped woman being pregnant.
Denise Noe said “@ Tyler and many others: You don’t seem interested even in ways to PREVENT pregnancy through rape”
Denise, I disagree. As a father of three girls I am not just concerned with preventing pregnancy through rape, I am concerned in preventing rape. And you you should too!
One of the ways you prevent rape is to stop this “evertyhing goes” attitude that is everywhere in the media, Hollywood, Planned Parenthood, schools, etc.
To stay within this blog topic, if you are serious in preventing rape, you have to do all you can to stop Planned Parenthood. An eye opener in this regards, is a very good video report done by American Life Leage (www. all.org) called “Hooking kids on sex”.
Watch it and tell me what you think.
(Denise) Nonsense! She is terrified because pregnancy is one of the most intense experiences a person can experience. She can suffer morning sickness and many other discomfiting and painful effects. Her belly gets bigger and bigger and everyone around her sees that she is pregnant. She suffers through the hours and dangers of childbirth.
This is not to say that having a baby can’t be experienced as a beautiful blessing. But it is invariably intense and includes pain and dangers. No amount of spinning will change the fact that a female who has just been attacked does not want to go through this experience as the result of a rape. Someone who has just been assaulted doesn’t think, “Gee, I wonder if I’m pregnant by that rapist? Won’t it be wonderful to have my belly grow big and hear everyone say ‘Congratulations!’ because I’m going to have my rapist’s baby!”
I don’t care how much you sing the praises of having babies under all circumstances, the truth will always be that a woman wants to be pregnant by a man she loves, is married to, or at least by her own choice. No amount of gobblygook is going to lead to a time when women who’ve been raped have a menstrual period and say, “Darn! I was so looking forward to having a baby by that monster!”
OK. I’m all for forgiveness. We’ve got to do whatever we can so that rapists can be treated and hopefully reformed. But you’re never going to make girls and women not dread being impregnated after a rape.
That woman I told you about DID in fact prefer being raped in a manner that didn’t lead to pregnancy. I think almost any fertile woman would.
A raped woman may never be ebullient at discovering that she is pregnant with the rapist’s child. However, she need not feel that the innocent life growing in her own body is the rapist’s child. It is God’s child and her child, no one else’s. The victim does not need to turn to abortion. Abortion is not an answer – it is a death sentence for the innocent child.
The fearful description of pregnancy in the above post is very misleading about the nature of pregnancy because the majority of pregnancies are not difficult, dangerous or life-threatening. Moreover, there is no reasonable evidence that the circumstances of a how a child is conceived influences how a pregnancy will proceed to term.
—
(Denise) What I find odd, and rather frustrating, is not that you want to avoid abortion in cases of rape. What seems outrageous is that you don’t appear to want to avoid PREGNANCY itself in rape cases. I would think that any decent person wants to protect women from pregnancy through rape but you seem to think that if she gets raped, she might as well get pregnant as a result. Preventing the conception should be a goal but you don’t seem to share it. I find that baffling. It’s one thing to oppose aborting the pregnancy, quite another to oppose PREVENTING PREGNANCY IN THE FIRST PLACE.
I think you mischaracterize my point. Yes, I oppose preventing pregnancy in all cases, not just rape cases. However, this does not mean I condone rape or want or expect women to get pregnant by being raped! Rape is awful. The use of contraception to prevent pregnancy in the case of a rape is a red herring. When a women gets raped she is not consenting to the physical act. Contraception will not stop the rape from happening.
—
(Denise) No, the problem is that many adopted children are very troubled by the question of their origins. The choices aren’t adoption or abortion. Adoption can’t even happen before birth.
The proper goal should be pregnancies that are wanted and welcomed.
The way to ensure that all pregnancies are wanted and welcomed is by increasing the level of compassion in each person’s heart: if eveyone would accept the Grace of God, and have faith in his Providence. No adopted child would be troubled by their origins, if they knew that they, like all people, came from God. We all share a common Father and a common Brother.
@ Tyler: I don’t want to continue this thread forever but I will say that while I can understand the position you hold in maintaining that rape victims must be legally forced to carry their pregnancies to term, the position that nothing should be done to help raped girls and women AVOID GETTING PREGNANT IN THE FIRST PLACE FROM THE ATTACK is brutal, barbaric, and immoral. I’m glad I’m not your wife, sister, or daughter.
again @ Tyler: I will also add that while I can respect the position that a raped girl or woman must be legally forced to carry to term and give birth as a result of a rape, I cannot respect the position that nothing should be done to PREVENT THE CONCEPTION after an attack. I regard such a position with complete contempt.
Richard says:
August 13, 2012 at 8:48 am
Denise Noe said “@ Tyler and many others: You don’t seem interested even in ways to PREVENT pregnancy through rape”
Denise, I disagree. As a father of three girls I am not just concerned with preventing pregnancy through rape, I am concerned in preventing rape. And you you should too!One of the ways you prevent rape is to stop this “evertyhing goes” attitude that is everywhere in the media, Hollywood, Planned Parenthood, schools, etc.
To stay within this blog topic, if you are serious in preventing rape, you have to do all you can to stop Planned Parenthood. An eye opener in this regards, is a very good video report done by American Life Leage (www. all.org) called “Hooking kids on sex”.Watch it and tell me what you think.
(Denise) I watched it. Awful. Just awful. It’s ironic but the “feminists” complain about the tradition that reduces women to sex objects. The programs described do exactly that in the guise of “sex education.” In fact, to a large extent, they reduce both sexes to — well, sex. As human beings, as both women and men, we are very rich with a variety of talents and possible skills. These programs reduce us to penises and vaginas. Some of the things suggested might indeed tend to lead to the horror of date rape.
Just awful.
“PREVENT THE CONCEPTION after an attack. I regard such a position with complete contempt.”
Denise, your above statement is another red herring. You need to explain and defend (or not defend) each of the many different available methods to prevent conception after a rape. I am certain that there are some methods that you don’t think are legitimate. Nonetheless, I disagree with all the methods I can think of, and most reasonable people would find objections to certain methods if not most of them. Indeed, some ‘progressive’ people consider abortion as way to PREVENT CONCEPTION – which, as you agree (I hope), is completely an inaccurate assertion.