War on women? More UK women than men favor abortion restrictions
There is indeed a gender divide on the abortion debate in Britain…. [O]f the 37% of Britons who favoured a lowering of the 24 week limit (34% supported the status quo) the majority were women. In total, twice as many women as men (49% as opposed to 24%) wanted to see a lower limit. There was also an interesting age difference: among the younger age group (18-24) support for a lower limit stood at 43%, whereas in the two older age groups it was 35%….
This gender distinction seems to be consistent. A… poll in March found an even more dramatic difference, with 35% of men favouring a reduction below 24 weeks and 59% of women doing so….
Pro-choice feminists… almost never acknowledge the perhaps counterintuitive fact that the majority of those who support their position on abortion time-limits are men, and the majority of those who want a reduction are women. Why are men more “feminist” than women, at least in this one area? …
Women who favour further restrictions on abortion might well deny the assumption that a pro-choice position is a feminist one, claiming instead that a liberal abortion regime benefits men. If women have easy (and socially unstigmatised) access to abortion, then men may feel less responsibility for the women they get pregnant or for any resulting child.
Men are likely to feel less pressingly the physical and psychological consequences of abortion. So they will be only too happy to concede women’s right to choose to terminate a pregnancy, and fear the implications for themselves of more legal restrictions.
Such a view is not unknown even in radical feminist circles. Catherine McKinnon once wrote that “abortion facilitates women’s heterosexual availability” and “frees male sexual aggression.”
~ Nelson Jones, pointing out how “the majority of those who want a reduction in abortion time-limits [in the UK] are women,” New Statesman, October 6
[Photo via New Statesman]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I think it is a combination of a couple things, this gender gap. First, men get the social message that they have no place in the abortion debate ( unless it is to upport “the right to choose”). I think the pro-choice side has very effectively got that message across to many otherwise decent guys. No decent man wants to hurt or harm women in any way, and hearing how a pro-life position is misogynist or harmful over and over again has certainly taken its toll. We need to do better at counteracting this harmful propaganda if we want more men to do right by women and unborn children. I mean, when I was a teenager I was still really opposed to abortion, but I never talked about it. I had internalized the message that it was none of my business by the time I was fifteen or sixteen, and this was even while being raised in a very anti-abortion church. I obviously got over that reluctance, but it is a real issue and the pro-life side needs to work hard to counteract that propaganda.
Another issue is, obviously, that men don’t get pregnant. We don’t know what it is like to carry a baby, and it can be hard to really emphasize with the unborn and realize their humanity if you don’t have the unique experience of growing a baby inside you. I know several men, myself included, who became more pro-life after their wife or girlfriend got pregnant. Seeing your own baby on the ultrasound really helps to drive home the point that unborn humans are just as precious as born babies. I think that if society as a whole starts really emphasizing that men need to be involved and supportive of the women carrying their child, and supportive of and educated about pregnancy in general, we would not only see more pro-life guys, we would see less abortion seeking women. How many women get abortions because the dude isn’t supporting her and she is basically alone? I’m thinking that’s a factor for a lot of women.
Honestly, I am of the opinion that women need to be both the public face of and the internal leaders of the pro-life movement. Women are the ones who get pregnant, women are the ones who can counteract the pro-choice claims of misogyny and restriction of women’s freedom. That isn’t to say that men shouldnt be involved. We definitely should. Not really as leaders (except for men who have a relevant job such as priest or doctor), but as supporters of the women on our lives and other women who need help and support.
Feministas are uncomfortable with being female.
That is why feminista politcians are so easily identifiable by their dress and manerisms.
The ‘man haters’ embrace masculinity and reject femininity.
That is not just ‘counterintuitive’, it is contradictory.
Jack, you give an altruistic twist to the shameful percentage of men who support abortion but imo most are just scum who would rather not have any responsibility.
JackBorsch says:
October 11, 2012 at 4:42 am
I think it is a combination of a couple things, this gender gap. First, men get the social message that they have no place in the abortion debate ( unless it is to upport “the right to choose”). I think the pro-choice side has very effectively got that message across to many otherwise decent guys. No decent man wants to hurt or harm women in any way, and hearing how a pro-life position is misogynist
(Denise) Perhaps people who want to outlaw abortion shouldn’t be so quick to shy away the “misogynist” label. After all, you believe women routinely “kill their children.” In addition, misogyny has something of a distinguished history with greats like Schopenhaur, Evelyn Waugh, August Strindberg, and many others being woman-haters. Author Barbara Cartland said, “I would rather be with a stupid man than with a clever woman.”
I have a close female friend who believes abortion should be illegal. She is quite frank in saying she “dislikes women” as a sex. Yes, she has friends of the female sex that she cares about. She dislikes us as a group. She would like to see us lose the right to vote. She believes women who misidentify the biological fathers of their children are guilty of “paternity fraud” which she believes should be a “criminal offense punishable with a prison sentence.”
A commentator stated that the great female film director, Lina Wertmuller, shows “a shuddery repugnance for female flesh” in her movies.
Why should the title “misogynist” be shied away from given its distinguished history?
Ok, Denise we should all totally embrace the label misogynist , as that’s the way to win political battles in this day and age. You’re totally making all kinds of sense today. 9_9
JDC says:
October 11, 2012 at 11:03 am
Ok, Denise we should all totally embrace the label misogynist , as that’s the way to win political battles in this day and age. You’re totally making all kinds of sense today. 9_9
(Denise) I was just pointing out that this label is automatically thrown and just as automatically recoiled from but that misogyny DOES possess a distinguished history. Many people — including women themselves — have had a dislike or distaste for women as a gender. Even those who haven’t necessarily embraced this label for themselves, like female director Lina Wertmuller, have been seen by others as having a distaste for the sex. Barbara Cartland’s books were read by an almost entirely female audience but she still preferred the company of a “stupid man” over that of a “clever woman.”
No decent man wants to hurt or harm women in any way, and hearing how a pro-life position is misogynist or harmful over and over again has certainly taken its toll…I had internalized the message that it was none of my business by the time I was fifteen or sixteen, and this was even while being raised in a very anti-abortion church.
My fiance was like this too. Raised in a pro-life Catholic home, but was pro-choice because he thought that as a man, he had no right to care or talk about it. When we got together, I talked through it with him, and soon he began to understand why he should, in fact, care. Now he is proudly pro-life.
The vocally pro-choice men, though: from my experience, it is all about “escaping” fatherhood for them. Abortion should be legal in case their girlfriend/wife/sex partner ever “needs” it.
@truthseeker
What a coincidence, i think most women are scum who just want an easy out for being easy, but that makes me a sexist because in reality women are all just misguided angels with hearts of pure gold.
Denise,
I think the problem is that there is a difference between recognizing the myriad flaws we have as a gender/culture and wanting to rectify those flaws and actively hating women. It’s being confused here, and blurring these lines doesn’t do us any favors.
“Women who favour further restrictions on abortion might well deny the assumption that a pro-choice position is a feminist one, claiming instead that a liberal abortion regime benefits men. If women have easy (and socially unstigmatised) access to abortion, then men may feel less responsibility for the women they get pregnant or for any resulting child.”
Wow, that lightbulb’s just going on above your heads now, Britain? Well, better late than never. The option of abortion takes men, at the moment they should be maturing, and knocks them back to adolescence. If you don’t mature and take responsibility for your first child, then when does the act of being responsible begin? Sometimes never. Responsibility builds character. Abortion destroys character along with one’s offspring.
Men are always going to have their motives suspected when they speak out on this issue. If they want abortion legal, they are suspected as sexual predators. If they want it illegal, they are suspected as “keep ’em barefoot and pregnant” types who favor submissive, domesticated women.
xalisae says:
October 11, 2012 at 11:44 am
Denise,I think the problem is that there is a difference between recognizing the myriad flaws we have as a gender/culture and wanting to rectify those flaws and actively hating women. It’s being confused here, and blurring these lines doesn’t do us any favors.
(Denise) Yes, there is indeed such a difference. One could wish to address flaws in one gender or the other without hating that gender or even disliking that gender.
It is also true that many people — women as well as men — have been and are misogynists including some very great people like Strindberg, Evelyn Waugh, and Schopenhour. Barbara Cartland and Lina Wertmuller are both women with a certain antagonism toward their own gender.
I only want make two points on this issue:
1) Men, by good and decent behavior, could put an end to all abortions all by themselves;
2) There is certain group of individuals, composed of both men and women, who have unplugged their sense of morality, and have entered into the matrix of moral relativism, a moral relativism that does not privilege the value of life. In this matrix death, ending life, is seen as a good and unfettered freedom as the ultimate value. This group of individuals is the hard core of abortion supporters who will never be pro-life. This group hate what the prolife community stands for – natural law and morality – and this core group wants to rid the world of the concept of natural law. This group wants freedom to be separated from morality. This group wants to bury morality. Not all abortion supporters share this evil goals, but many are blind to the extent of the evil intentions that lie inside the wills of this hard core pro-abortion group. This is the group that pushed for abortion rights in the first place. They successfully coninve the people who supported women’s rights and liberation to think that a woman’s liberty was tied to her ability to kill her own preborn child. This core group is sick.
You hit the nail on the head, Tyler.
It is a sickness. Now, I’m pretty sympthatic to the mentally ill most of the time. Except, in the case of abortion and “eutha-murder,” we now witness a large number of mentally ill people who wear nice clothes, who hold professions, who lobby for political gains, who work in advertising, who try as hard as they can to convince others that sick is normal. Well sick isn’t normal.
Some of them are even lawyers.
Who is it that waits this long to get an abortion? They are usually victimized minor girls. Protect minor girls from sexual exploitation!!!!!!
Are the feminists in Britain disgusted that men have finally gotten the memo? You’ve grilled this into their brains ladies! And now you got what you wanted–they’re all about abortion for ya! After all your marching, are you now going to tell them that you want them to support your abortions, but don’t be too happy about it, or too sad about it, just stand there and pay for it, don’t try to sympathize, but don’t be unsympathetic! I’m so sorry, men. We aren’t all this way. Really. Look hard.
U-104. If these men wanted to be responsible then they would offer real help/support instead of “help killing their child”.
I’ve told the story before that when I asked a close friend what would have happened if he had impregated, which he is unlikely to do because of low sperm count, he answered, “She would have aborted.”
Startled by his confidence, I said, “You can’t legally force a woman to get an abortion.”
He said, “No, but I would have made her life so miserable that she would have had to abort just to get some peace.”
The day before yesterday he called and said, “I don’t know what to do. These women want me to marry them and have kids.”
I asked, “Have you considered a vasectomy?”
He exclaimed, “Oh, why didn’t I think of that!? They’re not very expensive these days, are they?”
I said, “No, they’re not.”
He said, “Of course, I should get a vasectomy. You’re a lifesaver, Denise.”
Later, I said, “Are you ABSOLUTELY SURE you never want to be a Dad to a child?”
He said, “Yes, I’m sure. I’m 47 years old and I’ve never wanted kids and I know I don’t want them.”
It’s true he might end up regretting a vasectomy when he’s 90. But I’d rather he have regrets when he is elderly than that he hassle one of his girlfriends into having a fetus ripped to pieces or poisoned and burned.
Someone commented, “He sounds like a prince.”
Someone else said, “And what does this prove other than that your friend is a self-centered jerk and that women are stupid enough to spread their legs for the amusement of a self-centered jerk?”
Before anyone asks, no, I don’t believe anyone else is obligated to pay for his vasectomy and no, I definitely don’t believe the Roman Catholic Church should be forced to pay for what is offensive to their beliefs.
Sigh. Yes, some great people throughout the years have been misogynists, Denise. Many great people were racist too, in other times. Should we embrace the label of racism just because of that? I swear your comment at 4:42 was one of the most out there things you have ever said.
@truthseeker
Every man in the world could be anti abortion and willing to offer real help and abortions would still happen because there are women, the ones with all the legal power in this case, who would still kill their kids without a second thought.
“A woman is only a woman but a good cigar is a good smoke.” — Rudyard Kipling
“All women are dirty. Their insides are like cows.” — Rock Hudson
“I would rather be with a stupid man than with a clever woman.” — Barbara Cartland
Rudyard Kipling was a decent writer who unfortunately also came up with the “white man’s burden”. He wasn’t always batting 1000. Rock Hudson was a closeted gay dude who was probably pretty bitter about it, no wonder he wasn’t fond of the ladies. I have no idea who this Barbara person is.
Your point?
JackBorsch says:
October 12, 2012 at 7:55 am
Rudyard Kipling was a decent writer who unfortunately also came up with the “white man’s burden”. He wasn’t always batting 1000. Rock Hudson was a closeted gay dude who was probably pretty bitter about it, no wonder he wasn’t fond of the ladies. I have no idea who this Barbara person is. Your point?
(Denise) Rudyard Kipling was a brilliant writer. Rock Hudson was one of the all-time great movie stars. Barbara Cartland was a world famous writer of romance novels.
I have a close friend who is a very strong believer in anti-abortion laws. She also is an admitted misogynist. She has a low opinion of her own sex as a group.
There may in fact BE a misogynistic ELEMENT in the movement to outlaw abortion. After all, you consider a vast number of women to be child-killers! You believe that we routinely slaughter our young. That is not a flattering view of the female gender.
I talked to the friend referred to above about a pregnant woman who was suicidal because of a pregnancy and she answered, “Let her kill herself.” She’s also indicated she wants women in prison in massive numbers for “paternity fraud.”
“There may in fact BE a misogynistic ELEMENT”
I think i’ve seen more misandry than misogyny in the pro life movement personally, but of course there will always be some people of every belief in every large group.
I remember a still from Lina Wertmuller’s “Seven Beauties” shown in Ms. magazine. It was of a group of heavy-set women looking foolish. The article’s author wrote, “Why does the greatest woman film director depict women like this?”
Perhaps most germane to this topic is why girls and women wait until past 20 weeks to get an abortion. That is 5 months along. Some of you don’t want to distinguish between a zygote falling of the uterus and a fetus with arms, legs, a head, a torso, a heartbeat, and brain function being ripped to pieces or scalded and poisoned. However, there are some who might at least acknowledge that the latter is worse than the former. You might acknowledge that abortion becomes more hideous as pregnancy advances.
At any rate, WHY are girls and women getting abortions so very late in the pregnancy????????
There may in fact BE a misogynistic ELEMENT in the movement to outlaw abortion. After all, you consider a vast number of women to be child-killers! You believe that we routinely slaughter our young. That is not a flattering view of the female gender.
I consider a vast number of men to be rapists. Does that make me a misandrist too? If you’re opposed to both abortion and rape, are you just an all-round misanthropist?
Navi says:
October 12, 2012 at 4:12 pm
There may in fact BE a misogynistic ELEMENT in the movement to outlaw abortion. After all, you consider a vast number of women to be child-killers! You believe that we routinely slaughter our young. That is not a flattering view of the female gender.I consider a vast number of men to be rapists. Does that make me a misandrist too? If you’re opposed to both abortion and rape, are you just an all-round misanthropist?
(Denise) Rapists are a small percentage of the male population. About 43% of American women have had abortions. So you may consider almost half the women in this country “child-killers.” That would seem somewhat misogynistic.
However, as I pointed out, misogyny has some good company: Schopenhaur, Strindberg, Evelyn Waugh, Rock Hudson, Barbara Cartland, and Lina Wertmuller among many others.
“However, as I pointed out, misogyny has some good company”
Denise, this is a really strange point to keep hammering at. I mean didn’t George Washington own slaves? Would that mean that slave holding is not such a bad thing because it has good company?
Denise, men commit the vast majority of all violent crime. Men are also responsible for most wars and terrorism. Now, hating all men and thinking we are all bloodthirsty idiots makes about as much sense as hating all women because of abortion.
Seriously, go back to talking about Jayne Mansfield orsomething, this new kick is weird.
So it’s just a numbers game? The question of whether or not the pro-life movement has a misogynistic element is dependent on the proportion of women who have abortions in their lifetimes?
It’s 1 in 3 actually (around 33%), not 43%.
http://www.guttmacher.org/media/presskits/abortion-US/statsandfacts.html
“A small percentage of the male population” is quite subjective. According to one survey, 1 in 12 males admitted to committing acts that met the legal definition of rape. This is more common than red hair and slightly less common than left-handedness.
http://rwu.edu/campus-life/health-counseling/counseling-center/sexual-assault/rape-myths-and-fac
The same survey reports that 33% of males would do it if they didn’t have to worry about getting caught. 25% thought that date rape is acceptable if the woman asks the man out, pays for the date, or goes back to his room afterward.
“The same survey reports that 33%of males would do it if they didn’t have to worry about getting caught. 25% thought that date rape is acceptable if the woman asks the man out, pays for the date, or goes back to his room afterward.”
Okay now I hate men. That’s disgusting.
JackBorsch says:
October 12, 2012 at 6:24 pm
Seriously, go back to talking about Jayne Mansfield or something
(Denise) The tragic actress Barbara Payton, whose lost custody of her son to her ex-husband, said that when she was pregnant she “considered suicide but never abortion.” Although a judge derided her as a neglectful mother, she might be added to the pantheon of actresses who resolutely shunned abortion.
^ That’s the Denise Noe we know and love.
My link-free comment is in moderation? Really?
@Navi
“1 in 12 males admitted to committing acts that met the legal definition of rape”
If a husband and wife have sex while intoxicated he’s legally raping her, i call bs on that survey.
“i hate men” get a thumbs up?
If men don’t want to be hated, they shouldn’t be rapists!
I was being facetious. I don’t hate men. I just hate rapists and those who apologize for rape.
@Jack
Just as long as people realize that even men are innocent until PROVEN guilty just like real people.
Look, the movement to criminalize abortion is accused of misogyny. All I did was point out that misogyny has a distinguished history. Misogynists are in some good company: Schopenhaur, Strindberg, Evelyn Waugh, Barbara Cartland, Rock Hudson, Lina Wertmuller. Thus, perhaps you don’t need to recoil from his label. That was my point.