Students for Life of America’s Brendan O’Morchoe showed me this photo yesterday, staged and snapped by pro-life students at a Planned Parenthood rally in Austin, Texas, last week. I thought it was the best pic I’d seen of Planned Parenthood CEO Cecile Richards – ever! Click to enlarge…
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Just loving all the pro-lifers and abolitionists around her! The tables are turning! A death warrior surrounded by “Signs of LIFE” <~pun intended.
Huh? You are fighting for the death of women by not teaching birth control, safe sex, and abortion as a medical necessity sometimes. I just don’t understand how you can be this ignorant and want your own gender to be subjugated.
oh well, a judge will put a stay on this just like NC, WI, ND, etc and it will be ruled unconstitutional just like the rest.
And wearing red for blood. How apropos!
Karina, keep ignoring the piles of little bodies. Nothing to see here, move along. Your tyrants in black robes won’t stop the train.
Not death Kalina but life and well being. The Texas bill is FOR life and better care for women. It may get legally stalled but it will continue to be promoted. We will push for the same here in Michigan. Women need better care and education on the subject.
Kalina, the law passed in Texas explicitly allows for abortion past 20 weeks in the case of medical necessity. Late term abortions always take the life of an innocent child and often the life of the mother because they are quite dangerous. So, it looks like you’re the one fighting for the death of women. Also, if you want to see ignorant, take a look in the mirror.
“See that girl with the red dress on,she can do it all night long,she’s a bad girl, she’s a bad girl.”
ZZ Top, ‘Bad Girl’
Everyone say, “Cheeze!”
“safe sex”
Kalina, get with the program. “Safe sex” doesn’t exist anymore. The term is now safer sex. Not safer than abstinence, of course. Not safer than one monogamous partner for life, either. But presumably safer than “unprotected” serial-monogamous sex or “unprotected” casual sex, I guess.
Kalina, prescription drug birth control kills and hurts women: See lawsuits for Yaz and Nuva ring; Young women in their 20s and 30s having strokes because of their birth control; increased rates of breast cancer among young women. Safe sex is a joke: PP tells our children that if they use a condom or pop a pill they will be safe. Are teenagers really that responsible? Planned parenthoods own site admits that over half of people will get an STD in their lifetime. Now if their Plan was working surely the rates would be lower? Fact is the more sex partners you have and the earlier you get started the more risks you’re taking regardless of protection. Our children deserve more than to be told that they’re destined to be horn dogs so get used to it. Lets teach them some self respect and say you don’t need to sleep around just to be liked or feel loved. Anyway, your last point about late term abortion being medically necessary. This is false: at later stages of pregnancy (late 2nd and 3rdtrimester) you can’t do a quick abortion in the event of an emergency medical problem because the baby is too big. The abortion would take 2-3 days which is useless for an emergency. In such event attempts to stabilize the mother can be done or if needed an emergency c-section and at that point attempts can be made to save the baby too. Don’t believe me? See testimony by former abortion dr. Levantino as he testified before congress. http://Www.youtube.com/watch?v=8szDctl9lXM or read the testimony here http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/113th/05232013/Levatino%2005232013.pdf
Poor Karina…. doesn’t know the facts. But she knows what the Kool-Aid tastes like.
Dear Karina,
Planned Parenthood spreads of gospel of promiscuity and contraception. Contraception does not prevent STD’s. Contraception fails, you know. Everybody knows someone who got pregnant while using contraception. You know someone who encountered failed contraception.
But Planned Parenthood is there to help, sort of. PP sells abortions to the young people who accepted the “safe sex” gospel.
-PP will not help a woman with healthcare to carry her child to term.
-PP will not help a woman endure the emotional aftermath of her abortion.
-PP will not protect her from the abusive boyfriend or sexual predator who is coercing her into abortion.
-PP will not assist her when her seemingly loving relationship breaks up.
-PP won’t help her when she can’t get pregnant again, or her pregnancies result in miscarriages and premature births.
-PP will not help her with the breast cancer that develops from her hormone use and abortions.
PP encourages sexual activity, and PP sells abortions. That is the extent of their death-dealing help. Women will be safer when Planned Parenthood is extinct.
Meanwhile, Crisis Pregnancy Centers provide the full range of services to women — from immediate safety and shelter to young-child development coaching. Financial assistance, healthcare assistance, relationship counseling, even post-abortion healing. And all without a penny of taxpayer money.
What do we get from Planned Planned for our $half-a-billion each year? – Not a single mammogram. Just serial promiscuity and abortion.
Notice how the pro-lifers holding the signs are smiling and those in the orange look grim. It’s ironic that abortion supporters chose orange for their color. It reminds me of prisoners wearing orange jumpsuits.
Kalina, get educated. Tanya Reaves wasn’t left safer by legal abortion. She was left DEAD. And so was her baby. I’m a woman and I am not subjugated because I don’t tear the arms and legs off my babies. Stop demeaning my gender by acting like the only way we can be “free” is by killing. It is offensive to me as a MOM and a WOMAN.
Oh and the birth control pill is a class I carcinogen according to the World Health Organization. So yeah…not exactly safe to pop those cancer pills just so the loser you met at the singles bar can use you for sex and not call you in the morning.
The statement was going so well before this:
So yeah…not exactly safe to pop those cancer pills just so the loser you met at the singles bar can use you for sex and not call you in the morning
I really wish our side would stop acting as though only not-married “sluts” use contraceptives. Not every family can comfortably accommodate infinity children. That’s reality. We have to learn to deal with it rather than ignore it.
”A much higher proportion of married than of never-married women use a contraceptive method (79% vs. 39%). This is largely because married women are more likely to be sexually active. But even among those at risk of unintended pregnancy, contraceptive use is higher among currently married women than among never-married women (93% vs. 82%).[2]
• The proportion not using a method is more than twice as high among at-risk never-married women who are not cohabiting as among at-risk married women (18% vs. 7%).[2]”
Pretending like people (ESPECIALLY MARRIED PEOPLE) should only ever want sex to have children is foolish. It’s not the world in which we live. It’s not reality, and it’s not fair, either. A healthy sexual relationship is an important part of a good marriage, and if the married partners aren’t interested in procreation (for whatever reason!), they should be able to take steps to avoid it. As long as nobody is killed by abortion after being created by those parents, we really shouldn’t give a flying flip.
Being faithful and married does not protect a woman from the breast cancer risk of using hormonal birth control.
And those of us who are concerned about the high rate of adultery and divorce are convinced that widespread use of contraception and sterilization contributes to the temptation that married people face. There is a huge reason why NFP families don’t get divorces.
Meanwhile…. PP does not advocate for marital fidelity. PP urges for the free expression of our sexual individuality, without consequence — before, during, and after marriage. If PP cared about families at all, they would help with child-bearing as well as with child-killing. PP would have parental consent policies when dealing with our children. And we wouldn’t need laws to compel them to do the right thing for families.
Xalisae: A healthy sexual relationship is an important part of a good marriage…
Sharing the truth in love is hard to do when the truth is hard to hear. Here is the truth: Contraception is not healthy. It hurts the woman. It hurts the marriage. It hurts our culture. Christians have known this for 2000 years…. our experiment with contraception has failed, and 55 million American children have died.
Planned Parenthood insists that contraception is good for us. Obama insists that contraception is good for us, and that Christians must be forced to pay for everybody’s contraception.
Choose carefully whom you want to trust.
I trust my own judgements after researching as much as I can. Contraception has been a real boon to me and to my marriage, though I realize that won’t be true for everyone.
Yay, xalisae! Your last sentence sums it up perfectly.
I love this photo! It’s brilliant. Spread it far and wide.
“And wearing red for blood. How apropos!” – yes, like a subdued version of anti-choice placards.
“The Texas bill is FOR life and better care for women” – well we all know that isn’t true.
“Planned Parenthood spreads of gospel of promiscuity and contraception.” – anti-choice propaganda.
“Contraception does not prevent STD’s.” – condom on is much safer than condom off.
“Crisis Pregnancy Centers provide the full range of services to women” – well that’s patently false.
“Not a single mammogram.” – PP provides mammograms.
“Just serial promiscuity” – more anti-choice propaganda. “and abortion.” – plus a whole lot more health services.
“There is a huge reason why NFP families don’t get divorces.” – that would be correlation, not causation.
Come on, Reality. You know better than that.
http://www.politifact.com/georgia/statements/2012/sep/25/karen-handel/karen-handel-seeks-set-record-straight-komen-plann/
“Come on, Reality. You know better than that.”
No, he really doesn’t know much.
They don’t conduct mammograms, they provide them via referral. If you want a mammogram you can obtain one via PP.
Fine, one fifteenth of 1% of all mammogram referrals nationwide. And one quarter of all the abortions (333964 in the last available year).
“Contraception does not prevent STD’s.” – condom on is much safer than condom off.
The pill does not stop STD’s. With the rate of failure for condoms RE pregnancy this too is not a real good method of avoiding STD’s. Was the pregnancy failure rate a large part of why the pill was invented?
Then there are the STD’s that are found after they were spread to the eye. Somehow condom promoters do NOT tell people to wash their hands. If your fingers have touched a sore you can pass the virus and/or bacteria into the eye or perhaps some other part of your face while brushing your hair or the sweat off your face.
There is a picture of someone with gonococcal conjunctivitis of the right eye at the bottom of this web page courtesy of the CDC. This page starts off with “Gonorrhea is a purulent infection of the mucous membrane surfaces”. Does not say ‘just those in the genital area’. See http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/218059-overview. You do know that there is an increase in multidrug-resistant gonorrhea.
Then there is this from the American Sexual Health Association (Do a search using their name + gonorhea + how is it transmitted.), “Eye infections in adults may result when discharge caries the disease into the eye during sex or hand-to-eye contact.” Still does not tell them to at least wash their hands. Very sad.
Physicians’ Desk Reference (pdrhealth dot com Search for Eye Herpes) says, “The herpes simplex virus (HSV) causes painful blisters, usually affecting the mouth or genital area. The anal region, eyes, and fingers are involved in some people.”
Not one of these sources is a pro-life source. Some how in the secular world people can be told what to eat or not eat (See Mayor Bloomberg and Michelle Obama.) and restaurant employees can be told by the Public Health Dept. to wash their hands after using the restroom but wash their hands after the possibility of touching STD sores … that seems to be a ‘no-no’. In this case ignorance is not bliss!
“Was the pregnancy failure rate a large part of why the pill was invented?” – I don’t know Patty. Maybe it was because many people don’t like the interruption necessary to don a condom or the small loss of sensation.
“In this case ignorance is not bliss!” – obviously much more education on the use of condoms needs to be delivered. And condom on is still better than condom off.
To the person that asked “Are you fighting for the death of women…” Most of the people here probably feel they are fighting to save women… not just physically but emotionally. It is a popular thing that abortion must be protected for rape/incest/health of mother. But do you know why most people have abortions? My data might be out of date by a few years but:
rape
0.30%
incest
0.03%
physical life of mother
0.20%
physical health of mother
1.00%
fetal health
0.50%
mental health of mother
depends on definition
personal choice
95-98%
too young/immature/not ready
32%
economics
30%
to avoid adjusting life
16%
single mother/poor relationship
12%
enough children already
6%
sex selection
< 1%
“There is a huge reason why NFP families don’t get divorces.” – that would be correlation, not causation.
Yup. Not that this will get through. Some people just like to shout down their opponents without listening to them at all. A failure of a strategy for debate, if there ever was one. In order to address the arguments of your opposition, YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY LISTEN TO THEM AND GIVE THEM THOUGHT.
That goes for both sides.
The condom education should be that they are not good. What a Trojan horse you rode in on. It covers until you are exposed with poss. HO41 strand of gonorhea, the multi-drug resistant strain. “Getting gonorrhea from this strain might put someone into septic shock and death in a matter of days,” Christianson said. “This is very dangerous.” http://www.cnbc.com/id/100685883
Article goes on to quote William Smith, executive director of the National Coalition of STD Directors, as urging “Congress to target nearly $54 million in immediate funding to help find an antibiotic for HO41 and to conduct an education and public awareness campaign. … These superbugs, including the gonorrhea strain, are a health threat. We need to move now before it gets out of hand.”
And, I might add, into your eye. Self control not birth control. Don’t want their disease … don’t want their baby … don’t bother having sex with them. Is that so hard to understand?
So it’s safer to have sex without a condom than with one Patty? Is that what you’re saying?
What’s with the eye fetish?
“Don’t want their disease … don’t want their baby … don’t bother having sex with them. Is that so hard to understand?” – how many examples of ‘don’t want? Don’t do then’ would you like?
TheTruthWillSetUFree, do you have a source for those numbers?
Trying to warn before you are to blind to see or dead to feel. Self control not birth control. It is free to you and me.
Safe sex is NOT safe!
“Trying to warn before you are to blind to see or dead to feel.” – yes, more, as well as more broad, sex education; good.
“Self control not birth control. It is free to you and me.” – so how many examples of ‘don’t want? Don’t do then’ would you like?
The horse bolted hundreds of thousands of years ago, along with the gate being shut too late.
Safe sex is safer than unsafe sex.
NFP couples have extremely low divorce rates because they are probably not having sex before marriage, and choose their lifelong partner to be the parent of their child. A really good talk (it’s short! And summarized online) is Contraception, Why Not.
Argh. So here we go again, with NFP championed as a great alternative to birth control. Then when the OTHER Catholics come out and start talking about contraception being intrinsically evil, and I remind them that NFP is used as a means of having sex while avoiding conception, the first crew gets really quiet. ;-)
So what is NFP, everyone? Ante up, by all means. Is it a great way of having sex while avoiding children? That is, is it an alternative to contraception?
The way I see it rasqual, unless folk only have sex with every intention of trying to conceive then the mindset, the thinking, the approach, is the same whether the method used to avoid conception is crossed fingers, NFP, condoms or HBC. To try to have sex without getting pregnant.
Didja hear Reality?
THE ROYAL FETUS IS COMING!! THE ROYAL FETUS IS COMING!!
THE ROYAL PRODUCTS OF CONCEPTION WILL BE DELIVERED!
THE ROYAL CLUMP OF CELLS WILL BE ARRIVING SOON!!
and 3500+ non royals will be murdered today.
“So what is NFP, everyone? Ante up, by all means. Is it a great way of having sex while avoiding children? That is, is it an alternative to contraception?”
Well, yes, it is a great way to avoid getting pregnant (though when you are avoiding pregnancy, strictly speaking you aren’t having sex at the time). It is also a great way to get pregnant, a great way to understand your body, a great way to stay healthy, and a great way to help diagnose any fertility/cycle-related problems you might have. It can be used by anyone at all, regardless of cycle irregularities (though, of course, it might not exactly be practical since if you have a very irregular cycle you may have to avoid sex for long periods of time, just to be safe, which of course would not be fun). But it is a healthy, empowering, knowledge-filled way to help you understand your own fertility in order to achieve whatever it is you want (health, baby, no baby, diagnosis, etc), and it is very effective for whatever you decide to use it for. And it does this all without disrupting your body’s natural rhythms, and without treating your natural ability to be fertile as a disease.
As long as you and your partner both do not have STD’s, I think this choice is light years better than any other contraceptive method for all the reasons outlined above. It is very different from hormonal or barrier methods which artificially block your body from working how it is supposed to (this applies, of course, only in the case of healthy females using hormonal contraception – if you are using birth control to treat an illness that is a very different thing). NFP works with your natural cycle. There is a big difference there.
Whether it solves the Catholic’s philosophical problems with contraception, I do not know. But just on an objective level, I think even someone who doesn’t have a problem with artificial contraception should be able to understand why (if it works for your lifestyle, and you do not need birth control to treat an illness), NFP is a great option.
Is it a great way of having sex while avoiding children?
No. It’s a way of avoiding children by not having sex. Or it’s a way of having children by having sex when the woman is fertile. But you already knew that.
Ugh. The people practicing NFP are less likely to get divorced because most practitioners of NFP are subscribers to a religious doctrine that precludes most divorce, which is ALSO why they happen to be practicing NFP.
That may be true, x, or it may not. No one can say either way for certain. http://www.jabfm.org/content/22/2/147.full
“Catholics who do not use NFP have divorce rates similar to those of the general population, suggesting that religion alone does not account for this difference.”
9_9
Since NFP is the prescribed method of contraception of The Catholic Church, it stands to reason that “Catholics” who use OTHER methods of contraception don’t fully subscribe to church doctrine on the whole, which would therefore make them more likely to divorce as well.
“prescribed method of contraception of The Catholic Church”
The Church doesn’t prescribe any contraception.
Speaking from my personal experience going from contraception to NFP, it’s more likely knowledge and acceptance of the positive Church teaching regarding marriage and sexuality rather than knowledge and acceptance of the Church teaching regarding divorce that accounts for the difference. But that’s just my experience and that of those I know personally. Perhaps you have access to some research that shows NFP-using Catholics are more likely to stay in unhappy marriages than contraception-using Catholics?
DOlce: I pretty much agree. And I note: “I think this choice is light years better than any other contraceptive method (emphasis mine) for all the reasons outlined above.”
Lrning: “It’s a way of avoiding children by not having sex.” Right. By denying God’s natural endowment of heightened sexual desire during fertile periods — conspiring over entire weeks to accomplish the same goal as couples who casually don a condom in a minute or so.
I ask again: how does a carefully planned conspiracy to avoid children, using great science and well-timed sex, not amount to the same thing as artificial conception?
I believe this horse has already been beat to death, and the conclusion was that couples who use NFP in this way, from a Catholic standpoint, are morally little different than folks using artificial contraception.
My take? Fecundity is the creation norm, but wisdom rules nature not only in a pristine world, but moreso in a fallen one. I certainly agree that NFP is the most wise course for family planning — whether one is trying to avoid pregnancy or incur it.
“I believe this horse has already been beat to death,”
Agreed.
“and the conclusion was that couples who use NFP in this way, from a Catholic standpoint, are morally little different than folks using artificial contraception.”
From a Catholic standpoint, the couple may or may not be little different than folks using artificial contraception. Only God and perhaps the couple know for sure.
“Fecundity is the creation norm, but wisdom rules nature not only in a pristine world, but moreso in a fallen one. I certainly agree that NFP is the most wise course for family planning — whether one is trying to avoid pregnancy or incur it.”
Agreed.
Lrning: “Only God and perhaps the couple know for sure.”
There’ve been a lot of folks in this forum who have been very vocal with a lot more judgment than you suggest is warranted. :-/
Speaking of fecundity, how’s this for social craziness: I think it’d be common knowledge that wisdom about life increases as experience with your own children accrues. So what’s it mean when couples are putting off having children until later in life? Does it imply that people will lack wisdom about human life on the planet for a longer proportion of their lives? In the aggregate, how does this bode for things like policy in government, who’s elected on what bases, and so forth?
That actually bothers me to think about.
So I’ll stop for now. ;-)
There’ve been a lot of folks in this forum who have been very vocal with a lot more judgment than you suggest is warranted. :-/
Heh. I was referring to the couple using NFP. It takes prayer and discernment to judge whether one’s use of NFP is in accordance with God’s will or is little different than contraception. From a Catholic standpoint, we already know that use of contraception is not in accordance with God’s will.
Yes Carla, isn’t it exciting!
How about you put some of those slogans on placards.
Use NFP. Or don’t. But please! why pretend not to know the difference between having sex whenever you want and avoiding during peak fertility or aiming during peak fertility? To many women especially, it makes a big difference not to have sex during ovulation. Its a big sacrifice, yo.
NFP isn’t contraception in that there’s no chemical or barrier device that acts against conception, like there is in every form of real contraception. Again, I find it really hard to believe people can’t see that distinction.
Another biggie why NFP isn’t contraception- we don’t call it contraception when people use a method to try and achieve pregnancy. Real contraception can’t act that way.
why pretend not to know the difference between having sex whenever you want…
It’s statements like this that make some people sound like jealous children. WTF business is it of ANYONE’S when/where/how/with whom ANYONE ELSE has sex, AT ALL, if it’s consensual and nobody is being killed by abortion? Seriously. Grow up, people.
I swear, I can here it now, “But…but…but JAY got to have 2 pieces of candy, and I only got 1, and now *I* can’t have anymore!!!!! WAAAAAH!!!!”
“To many women especially, it makes a big difference not to have sex during ovulation. Its a big sacrifice, yo.”
Yeah. And it’s a self-imposed one you choose to inflict upon yourself. People who opt not to do so are not worse than you. You are not better than anyone else because you choose to inflict this upon yourself. The way you want to control your fertility is your own business, and the way everyone else chooses to control their fertility is their own business, and I don’t know who uses what just by looking, but even if women who used NFP got halos and were followed around by angelic choruses, I would still treat everyone THE SAME, because something as trivial as someone’s sexual habits are none of my business and don’t speak to anyone’s essence as a person.
“Real contraception can’t act that way.”
It actually can. I have problems with my cycle, and I was only able to get pregnant after years of trying with a gap of 5 years between children after I took birth control for about a month to regulate my system.
I found some very interesting points to think about in the article, Contraception, Why Not?
X, I never said I was better because I use NFP, though I prefer the method to contraception. You jumped to that, and its on you.
If NFP is contraception, where do I buy it or get a prescription for it like ALL forms of real contraception? How do I inject it or get surgically fitted or dispose of used NFP? What are the physical side effects of NFP?
You made a false assertion that NFP is contraception and I pointed out a big reason how its not. Now you want to switch gears and tell me I’m childish with BIG IMPRESSIVE ALL CAPS AND EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!!! or judgmental or whatever because I called it out. As if that’s logical.
Use whatever you want. Crap, its not like I’m picketing outside your house or listening at your bedroom door. And telling people they’re inflicting (something… punishment? what?) on themselves because they use NFP? No, not judgmental at all. Whatever. Please go back to the usual X and make some sense.
X, I never said I was better because I use NFP, though I prefer the method to contraception. You jumped to that, and its on you.
No, you guys just ACT as though you’re better than people who use contraception by insinuating that women who use contraception are using it so they can have frequent, anonymous sex with “loser[s]”, and be “used for sex” when, newsflash!, it turns out more MARRIED WOMEN IN COMMITTED, MONOGAMOUS RELATIONSHIPS USE CONTRACEPTION THAN SINGLE WOMEN. Why do you guys have to imagine that easy single women are the ones taking contraception? Oh yeah, so you can feel like you’re better than someone else. And then when the stats show you that MOST women who use contraception are married, you bring up the divorce rate and then act like, “Oh, but NFP marriages are like, TOTALLY better and crap. Look how much better.”, because gotta feed that ego, man!
But I think you guys do have a little bit of a point. I think that contraceptive use and the divorce rate are connected. But not for the reasons you all do. I think that more religious people have adopted a different concept of “God”, and the ones who haven’t changed their notion of religion have ditched religion altogether. So, there are fewer people who feel as though there is a God up there who likes it when they suffer or deprive themselves. So, they’re more likely to use contraceptives so that they can be intimate with spouses when they need and want to be while reducing the chances their family (which might barely be making ends meet as it is) will expand. These same people who are done with deprivation in the intimacy department are probably ALSO the same people who don’t believe there is a God up there who wants them to stay in a terrible, possibly even abusive marriage because, “Hey, you guys promised, like, for serious, m’kay?!” and don’t even believe that two parents living miserably together are better than happy parents in a blended family.
I’m glad for this advancement, though. I think I like my Andy’s notion of “God” much better than anything I’ve found here.
Also, a lot of contraceptives started out as natural methods or objects.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=14f_1192808167
So, your NFP has a lot in common with the kama sutra texts. Only, I don’t interact with a lot of kama sutra fans who act like they’re so much better than everyone else. Well, except for Sting, but he’s a pretty smug guy, anyway.
Sorry I missed something xalisae, what is an “Andy’s notion of ‘God'”?
My fiance’s idea of God. That He’s actually…like…benevolent and wants us to be happy.
Ok…thanks for explaining. I didn’t realize Andy was the name of your fiancé.
Did you miss the point that the pill is a class I carcinogen. That you are putting artificial hormones in your body. Condoms won’t protect you from HPV. One out of two sexually active single adults has HPV. If you really want to know something about that convenient pill, you should do a little research as to who funded the development of the pill, and why. You should check the background of the company that introduced the pill. They go on back past the middle of the last century. There is a method of NFP that is extremely effective in either preventing pregnancy, if you are concerned in that regard, or for getting pregnant, if that is your goal. It requires communication.
David, you just think you are better than women who use the pill and men who wear condoms. You gotta feed that ego, man!
I guess it does sound just as stupid when I say it.
“Did you miss the point that the pill is a class I carcinogen.” – so are about a zillion other things in regular use. It’s called risks and benefits.
Condoms won’t always protect you from HPV – that’s better.
“One out of two sexually active single adults has HPV.” – got a link for this?
““Did you miss the point that the pill is a class I carcinogen.” – so are about a zillion other things in regular use. It’s called risks and benefits.”
Yup. Everything has side effects. Heck, even stuff like acetaminophen causes liver damage and death for hundreds of people per year. But I will say that I don’t think doctors warn people about this risk very often when it comes to birth control. It should be plainly explained so people can choose whether to take this risk or not. And when it comes to minors I’m pretty iffy on whether a minor should be able to choose to take something with these type of risks without parental say.
And when people are going on about the risk of cancer when it comes to hormonal birth control they seem to forget it lowers the risk of some types of cancer, I think it’s ovarian cancer that it halves the risk of. Breast cancer is the worry I believe.
People could always read the packet Jack. Or inform themselves better. Any time a doctor gives me a drug of any type I do the google thing.
Quite right about the risks and benefits stuff too Jack.
What interests me is how David came up with the “One out of two sexually active single adults has HPV.” claim. I find it extraordinary.
“People could always read the packet Jack. Or inform themselves better. Any time a doctor gives me a drug of any type I do the google thing.”
Yes, everyone should do this with any med they take. Unfortunately people don’t care for their own health like they should very often, and medical professionals should be sure they they direct attention to risks like this imo.
” What interests me is how David came up with the “One out of two sexually active single adults has HPV.” claim. I find it extraordinary.”
HPV is really common, the CDC says most sexually active adults will get it at some point in their lives. Luckily most infections will go away on their own, and most never cause symptoms. But for those unlucky people who get symptoms I’m sure it’s quite unpleasant.
http://www.cdc.gov/std/hpv/stdfact-hpv.htm
Indeed it would be Jack. It appears that it can cause throat cancers and such too. Luckily there is a preventative vaccine available nowadays. (except for those who believe the vaccine contains a secret ‘must go have sex now’ component added by the gubmint)
It still doesn’t demonstrate David’s claim though.
I think some people are concerned about the side effects of the vaccine versus the benefits. I don’t think it should be a mandatory vaccine like vaccines for stuff like measles, personally I think it should be the parent’s choice or the individual’s choice. I got it for myself because I was still young enough to take it, and I’ll vaccinate my kids when they are old enough, no question. But people shouldn’t be forced for something like this.
I do get annoyed with the people who say it’s “encouraging” sleeping around. I didn’t get it to sleep around, what if I simply got married to someone who has HPV, should I be required to get iinfected or something? I think that’s silly reasoning.
Yes I agree it shouldn’t be mandatory Jack.
I was only alluding to the loonies attitude to it.
“Yes I agree it shouldn’t be mandatory Jack.
I was only alluding to the loonies attitude to it.”
Well some of them are the anti-vaxxers for everything. A lot of others were kinda responding to Texas trying to make it mandatory for minor girls, which I get why they would be upset (don’t like the fear-mongering, though). And yeah, there’s that contingent who think anything to do with sexual health is encouraging promiscuity. I find that annoying. What if my daughter remains a virgin until her wedding day, but her husband made mistakes in his teens and gives her the strain that causes cervical cancer? A simple vaccination could save her from that heartache. What if my son’s girlfriend cheats on him and gives him HPV? I don’t like it when people surround things like that with rhetoric like “you’re encouraging your kids to have like eleventy billion sex partners! It could all be prevented if you didn’t let them get that shot!”
And I also don’t like it when people imply that those who have STIs, even curable ones, are just disgusting and damaged goods. I don’t think most people mean to come across that way, but it does get really judgmental sometimes.
Come on Jack, you know how it works :-)
Oh, and eleventy billion is a false number, it’s eleventy squillion.
Yeah I know, it’s just hurtful though. Have people ever stopped to think that some people got an STD when they were a kid through sexual abuse? Or as an adult through rape? Or someone got cheated on by their wife or husband even though they have had only one or two sexual partners in their lives? Heck, a lot of people who are living with HIV, or even something like herpes or HPV on their mouth or throat, got it as a fetus by their mother! That stuff is really more common than you think and the way people speak about those who have had or have STIs and STDs is just gross and mean sometimes.
“I guess it does sound just as stupid when I say it.”
Just as I suspected. Attempting to retort a debate partner with, “Oh yeah? Well…you’re stupid!” sounds just as immature when Pro-Lifers do it as when legal abortion supporters resort to such things.
I didn’t say you were stupid, X, I said parts of your posts sound stupid. You don’t realize you sound just like what you accuse others of sounding like.
“Oh yeah, you’re childish and just think you are better than me!” Waaaaa.
Would you advise a young woman going through a divorce or in an abusive relationship to have her tubes tied?
I didn’t say you were stupid, X, I said parts of your posts sound stupid. You don’t realize you sound just like what you accuse others of sounding like.
Pointing out the juvenile behavior of others is not stupid. “No, U!” is also not a valid retort. But thank you for that, it’s been awhile since I’ve seen it used.
“Oh yeah, you’re childish and just think you are better than me!” Waaaaa.
Yes. How dare I have enough of the holier-than-thou attitude. I should just sit here and take it as people from my own side of the abortion debate belittle contraception-using adults as stupid sluts. Being offended at such behavior from supposed adults who sound like spoiled, jealous children because others have the audacity to have their wants and desires met just-*gasp*-whenever they feel like it, instead of subscribing to your dogma and cow-towing to the “blessing” of sacrificing a rich, full sex life to your god…you’re correct, I have no right to be offended by that. I’m sorry I violated my Pro-Live Movement Contract by telling you all you were wrong about something.
Would you advise a young woman going through a divorce or in an abusive relationship to have her tubes tied?
Depends. Divorce, probably not. Abusive relationship, that depends on circumstances. Is she being raped regularly? Is her partner trying to use her fertility to control her? Is he sabotaging other means of contraception? I’d say getting free from the abuse is paramount, in that instance.
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/p480x480/1010196_390193651081243_712303667_n.png
Tyleritis: The condition of being absolutely horrible to someone, then getting all mystified as to why they’d come back at you in an offended manner.
Used in context:
Boy, when you talk about NFP use here, everyone gets a severe case of Tyleritis.
Pointing out the juvenile behavior of others is not stupid
Pointing out the stupid behavior of others is not juvenile. And around and around we go. . . .
belittle contraception-using adults as stupid sluts
Some of us have been contraception-using adults as well as NFP-using adults (although you claim NFP is a contraception without ever having used it yourself and also tell those who do use NFP that they are inflicting something on themselves without ever having used it yourself) and now we actually see and can compare the differences in ourselves, our lives and our relationships but if we talk about those differences, we are accused of being childish and thinking we are better than you. You even bring in your bf’s idea of God even though our God is “dogma.” Btw, I totally agree that God is benevolent and wants us to be happy.
Did you read the Contraception, Why Not? article? Is it written in a way that belittles you or makes you feel like a stupid slut? Is there a way that anyone can talk about their support for NFP over contraception without you getting defensive? I think the only way you will be happy is if we say NFP is the same as contraception but then we would only be lying about what we have learned and now believe to be true.
Abusive relationship, that depends on circumstances.
Okay, in what circumstances would you tell a young, abused woman that she should get her tubes tied?
Xalisaeitis: The condition of being absolutely offended with people that might actually know something that you don’t because they have actually experienced it and then getting all butt hurt because they don’t debate in the exact way you think they should.
Used in context:
Girl, when you debate NFP use here, make sure you tiptoe around the topic because there might be someone reading who has a severe case of Xalisaeitis.
I’ll only expose myself to the line of fire to say both sides of this argument have elements of truth and… well, hyperbole.
Isn’t contraception (against the possiblility or probablity of conception) any method, whether natural, artificial, or one partner running off to Timbuktu?
con·tra·cep·tion
noun ?kän-tr?-?sep-sh?n
Definition of CONTRACEPTION
: deliberate prevention of conception or impregnation
“and now we actually see and can compare the differences in ourselves, our lives and our relationships but if we talk about those differences, we are accused of being childish and thinking we are better than you.”
Nope. If you look waaaaay back when all this crap started, it was a response to a statement that was absolutely overtly inflammatory. I don’t mind people talking about their positive experiences with NFP. If that’s their preferred method, they can rave about it all day, and I’m glad it works for them. But this whole thing started with a really CRAPPY comment directed towards women using hormonal contraception:
So yeah…not exactly safe to pop those cancer pills just so the loser you met at the singles bar can use you for sex and not call you in the morning
(I honestly cannot believe I have to explain WHY this statement might come off as infuriating…but heregoes:)
You think we’re stupid because we don’t know the risks of breast cancer and bloodclots associated with hormonal contraception use. Or, perhaps we DO know the risks, but we’re just soooooo darned desperate to have sex with some slimeball we just met that we don’t care.
“Btw, I totally agree that God is benevolent and wants us to be happy.”
Then you should do a better job respecting the fact that your life experiences are not everyone else’s, and there are plenty of people out there who are perfectly happy, healthy, and knowledgeable who use various contraceptive forms who don’t feel the need to use planning and self-denial to avoid conception, and that’s JUST as okay and respectable as NFP.
“Did you read the Contraception, Why Not? article?”
Nope. I’m not Catholic anymore, so I didn’t really care to do so. I don’t need other people telling me “what’s best” in life, I already know what is best for my life. If I ever change my mind and decide that I need more people in my life telling me “what’s best” for me, I’ll give it a thumb-through.
“Is there a way that anyone can talk about their support for NFP over contraception without you getting defensive?”
I believe I mentioned that earlier. Talking about your experiences/methods/etc. is fine and dandy. It’s belittling those of other people that causes problems. I don’t know why you seem to find this so hard to understand. This ENTIRE THING was started over one inflammatory sentence directed towards contracepting women that was really just absolutely disrespectful and rude, and I’m not backing down until I see a change around here, which I doubt will ever happen, anyway. I’m tired of NFP practitioners acting as though they’re so persecuted when crap like that is said without anyone else batting a freaking eye about it.
“ I think the only way you will be happy is if we say NFP is the same as contraception but then we would only be lying about what we have learned and now believe to be true.”
Great. Just as suspected. Things will never, ever change, and this argument is doomed to continue forever. If you really want to think that only you all know the ONE AWESOMELY TRUE WAY, great. But just respect that not everyone agrees with you. You can keep your strategy-based contraception, and other people will keep theirs. Everyone’s equal, as far as I’m concerned.
“Okay, in what circumstances would you tell a young, abused woman that she should get her tubes tied?”
I’m pretty sure I mentioned that earlier, too. I think I said something along the lines of, if a woman is being raped by her abuser and he is trying to use her fertility against her to maintain the abuse, that might be a good course of action. Otherwise, I’d probably suggest something like a subdermal implant or an IUD.
“Xalisaeitis: The condition of being absolutely offended with people that might actually know something that you don’t because they have actually experienced it and then getting all butt hurt because they don’t debate in the exact way you think they should.”
I retort with:
Praxedosis: Delusion that somehow you have cornered the market on Truth and life experience in such a way that totally invalidates anyone else’s choices and then throwing a tantrum when someone illustrates to you how absurd that notion is.
Your definition, Hans, says noun.
A noun’s definition is a person, place, or thing. We know that choosing abstinence is not a person or a place. So therefore it must be a thing. But a thing’s definition is
object: an inanimate object
unspecified item: an unnamed or unspecified object
occurrence: something that occurs, or something that is done
and abstinence is not 1, 2, or 3.
meth·od
/?meTH?d/
Noun
A particular procedure for accomplishing or approaching something, esp. a systematic or established one.
Strategic and planned abstinence to avoid pregnancy through NFP is a procedure for accomplishing something-namely to space children as a couple deems appropriate, which entails avoiding conception.
“Tyleritis: The condition of being absolutely horrible to someone, then getting all mystified as to why they’d come back at you in an offended manner.”
I’ve read this like six times and I still can’t stop laughing every time I see it. Good show.
” This ENTIRE THING was started over one inflammatory sentence directed towards contracepting women that was really just absolutely disrespectful and rude, and I’m not backing down until I see a change around here, which I doubt will ever happen, anyway. I’m tired of NFP practitioners acting as though they’re so persecuted when crap like that is said without anyone else batting a freaking eye about it.”
Well see, in their eyes, it’s not offensive, it’s just true. Rather sad, actually. It’s like the stuff against gay people.
Them: “Gay relationships are perverted, they are just using each other, etc”.
Me: “That’s seriously offensive and untrue. Pretty bigoted actually.”
Them: “Omg why are you so mad? Can’t handle the truth??”
Lol.
Prax, x and I are right. Contraception is definitely “a thing”, and thus a noun. And I lazily copied and pasted that definition from Merriam-Webster. It wasn’t my “thing”.
Oh, see? Even “definition” is a thing.
If a woman confides in you that she is being raped by her partner you would recommend that it might be a good course of action to have her tubes tied? What about calling the police or hiding her out? What if she listens to you and has her tubes tied and then down the road escapes her rapist (without your help) and wants to have a baby? I really don’t understand enabling a rapist to continue raping someone by recommending that she needs to protect herself from her fertility. As if her fertility is the criminal. Goodness sakes.
Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, it’s not that some people here think they are better than you? That maybe, just maybe, it’s you that doesn’t think that you are as good as they are?
so I didn’t really care to do so.
Then you obviously don’t know much about the topic of discussion this thread has veered into here. Maybe you should stick with topics you are willing to learn about and discuss without using all CAPS. Will my pointing out that I and others here know more about the topic of NFP make you feel like we think we are better than you?
I was on the pill. And I will tell you what, young lady, I behaved in ways with losers that I would not have had I not been on the pill. If you only made perfect choices with the men you’ve chosen to sleep with, go you. Behaving that way was not in my best interest but had you called me on it, I would have responded in anger. And there are many women who are behaving the same way and I don’t believe that as many women behaved this way before the pill (it liberated us donchknow). This doesn’t mean that I don’t realize that there are married women on the pill or women on the pill for medical reasons. But I am talking about the single women who are being used for sex as much as you seem to not want to admit that they exist.
The fact is that some women (and men) are not respected because they behave in ways that are not respectful and that included myself. After my divorce, I went in and told my doctor I WAS SO SURE that having a tubal ligation was what was best for me. When he refused, I thought, “Who the heck is he to tell me no? I already know what is best for my life. He thinks he is so much better than me!”
If you can’t say no, your yes means nothing.
If natural contraception like NFP is strategic and planned abstinence to avoid pregnancy is artificial contraception like the pill strategic and planned indulgence to avoid pregnancy?
Definition of CONTRACEPTION : deliberate prevention of conception or impregnation
Are celibate people contracepting by not having sex? If sex isn’t required for behavioral contraception, then look at me! I’m apparently engaging in contraception right now! As are the billions of other people that aren’t having sex right this moment.
I think NFP fits the definition of birth control, but not contraception. The only way to deliberately prevent conception/impregnation with NFP is to not have sex. Any time you do have sex when using NFP, there is nothing deliberately preventing conception/impregnation.
“If natural contraception like NFP is strategic and planned abstinence to avoid pregnancy is artificial contraception like the pill strategic and planned indulgence to avoid pregnancy?”
Yes. I would consider this accurate. Using the pill is a planned way to lower your risk of pregnancy by using artificial hormones. Using NFP (if you’re using it for birth control, not to get pregnant) is a planned way to lower your risk of pregnancy by charting and documented body changes/whatever. I don’t see a moral difference between it, people choose which is best for their lives.
I think people get annoyed when NFP users act as though their experiences with contraception are applicable to everyone. I consider using condoms near the end of my marriage, where it was not possible to leave yet and my wife had cheated on me at least once that I knew of, a smart move that saved me from some possible problems (who knows what STD she could have brought home, and we definitely didn’t need to bring another kid into that home). Your experiences are valuable and you should definitely share them, I just get annoyed when people decide that their experiences apply to everyone and that everyone uses contraception for the same reason.
” I think NFP fits the definition of birth control, but not contraception. The only way to deliberately prevent conception/impregnation with NFP is to not have sex. Any time you do have sex when using NFP, there is nothing deliberately preventing conception/impregnation.”
If you deliberately make it so you’re only having sex in your infertile periods, I don’t see a difference in kind between that and putting on a condom or using a diaphragm. Having sex on your infertile periods alone is deliberately lowering your risk of pregnancy from a sexual encounter, just like using a barrier method is lowering your risk of pregnancy from a sexual encounter.
If you deliberately make it so you’re only having sex in your infertile periods
Or to say it differently – deliberately abstaining during fertile periods. Abstaining vs. Induldging
” Or to say it differently – deliberately abstaining during fertile periods. Abstaining vs. Induldging”
Yes, you can say it like that if you please. I still don’t see a moral difference. I find abstinence a morally neutral thing when it comes to a monogamous relationship. Have sex on fertile periods or don’t, use a condom or not. Committed couples can make their own choices about that and I see their choices as morally equivalent if they are not killing any babies.
But I am talking about the single women who are being used for sex as much as you seem to not want to admit that they exist.
Oh and let’s not forget the teen girls who are not even old enough to legally marry that have had the pill prescribed for “acne.”
Jack, for a couple using NFP to avoid pregnancy, what deliberate action is preventing conception/impregnation during their sexual encounter(s)? I don’t know any women that can deliberately turn their natural fertility on or off. The only deliberate action a couple using NFP to avoid pregnancy takes is to not have sex. So I guess you’re saying that, in your opinion, not having sex is “contraception”. Okay.
I don’t see a difference in kind between that and putting on a condom or using a diaphragm.
Yes, apparently lots of people don’t see the difference between having sex and not having sex at a particular time.
Thanks Hans for the grammar lesson. It was helpful. ”Contraception,” “abstinence”, and “NFP” are all things for grammatical purposes. We then have to debate their meanings – what they signify. For example, Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins deny that atheism has any metaphysical belief system. However, theists are fond of showing that atheism usually implies a belief in Naturalism – which has metaphysical assumptions of its own. Like “atheism” the word “abstinence” signifies a negation of something, in this case, sexual intercourse. Also like atheism one can be abstinent for different reasons and multiple reasons at the same time. So one can be abstinent, like Learning above, without giving a moments consideration to the fact that one is avoiding pregnancy. The morality or immorality of any act is dependent on the1) intention and/or consequences of the act, 2) the circumstances of the action, and 3) the object chosen. All three of these elements determine if an act is moral. Artificial contraception does not pass the third element because the sole purpose for artificial contraception is to prevent life. As said earlier, abstinence can have many purposes.
” But I am talking about the single women who are being used for sex as much as you seem to not want to admit that they exist.”
Adult women are adults, not children. Men should treat women and themselves with respect and not use them. Women should treat men and themselves with respect and not use them. But all adults have the responsibility for their own sex lives, you can’t blame other people if you choose to involve yourself in sexual relationships. I’ve been seeing someone for months and we don’t have sex, it’s possible to make your own decisions and care for your own mental health when it comes to your sexuality. Adults make those decisions on their own. Contraception doesn’t make them.
” Oh and let’s not forget the teen girls who are not even old enough to legally marry that have had the pill prescribed for “acne.””
That’s a parental failing/decision. I don’t think teens are old enough to be involved in sexual relationships at all.
“Jack, for a couple using NFP to avoid pregnancy, what deliberate action is preventing conception/impregnation during their sexual encounter(s)? I don’t know any women that can deliberately turn their natural fertility on or off. The only deliberate action a couple using NFP to avoid pregnancy takes is to not have sex. So I guess you’re saying that, in your opinion, not having sex is “contraception”. Okay.”
They’re deliberately choosing to plan their sexual encounters to avoid pregnancy as much as possible. They aren’t turning their fertility on and off, but they are making a plan to avoid their fertility. You guys keep trying to conflate abstinence altogether (like, not having sex with your girl/boyfriend at all) with NFP, but I think NFP is more analogous to barrier methods, personally. You still have sex using NFP, you just plan to have it at certain times. The intent there (if it’s used for birth control) is the same intent you have with barrier methods.
xalisae, I don’t mind you being rude to me (here I am bucking Tyleritis – I think I recently got vaccinated for it ) but please don’t be rude to everyone else. Your reaction to the comment by Syndey M that you state started it all off was a general statement and was not directed at any person in particular. You have to have a fairly thin skin as well to be upset by that comment. Perhaps, you need to go get vaccinated against Tyleritis – it seems to be spreading!
I think I know where I got it….
“Your reaction to the comment by Syndey M that you state started it all off was a general statement and was not directed at any person in particular”
That’s ridiculous Tyler (congrats on your vaccination btw!! ;) ). Of course general statements can be offensive, and people don’t get a free pass for being rude just because they didn’t direct it at a particular person.
It’s like my feminist friends who are all like “Omg I hate men they are such pigs, so disgusting!! Oh, not you Jack, don’t be offended, we like you”. Lol. That’s an offensive statement even if you don’t direct it at a particular person. If I said “Christians are stupid, and ignorant, and [insert other sweeping and rude statements]”, I would still be insulting everyone who is a Christian, even if I didn’t direct it at a Christian in particular.
I agree Jack but then we need to look at the particular general statement because general statement can also be reading in way, within a certain context, as true statements.
Sydney statement is logically consistent. I think most reasonable people would agree that a woman should not take pills so that you can have sex with a loser who doesn’t call you back in the morning. She is not saying that all women use the pill only for this reason – a person needs to read that into the statement.
You guys keep trying to conflate abstinence altogether (like, not having sex with your girl/boyfriend at all) with NFP, but I think NFP is more analogous to barrier methods, personally.
And you are conflating deliberately rendering a sexual encounter sterile with not deliberately rendering a sexual encounter sterile. Whatev. I’m not going to try to convince anyone that there is a difference. I see a clear difference. I experienced a clear difference. I’ll continue to base my actions and decisions on my personal experience with both NFP and contraception.
Tyler, she specifically said “Oh and the birth control pill is a class I carcinogen according to the World Health Organization. So yeah…not exactly safe to pop those cancer pills just so the loser you met at the singles bar can use you for sex and not call you in the morning. ”
It’s pretty obvious to see how people can take that as an insult to women in general who use contraception. The implication is that women only use the “cancer pills” so they can go to the bar and have indiscriminate sex with losers who are using women.
” And you are conflating deliberately rendering a sexual encounter sterile with not deliberately rendering a sexual encounter sterile. Whatev. I’m not going to try to convince anyone that there is a difference. I see a clear difference. I experienced a clear difference. I’ll continue to base my actions and decisions on my personal experience with both NFP and contraception.”
Which is good for you! And I mean that sincerely, I’m not being sarcastic. I am glad you found a way to plan your family that works for you, makes you and your husband happy, and you find morally okay. That’s a good thing. I’m happy for you and Praxedes and Tyler and any other Catholic or non-Catholic (I believe one agnostic who posts here shares that she prefers NFP type family planning, even though she’s not Catholic) who likes NFP and finds that it works for them. It didn’t work for me, though I fully admit my marriage had a lot of problems and I can’t judge NFP based on that. I’m just tired of people making assumptions and insulting people who choose a different manner of controlling their family.
I personally see abstinence and artificial contraception use in a committed relationship as morally neutral acts, and it depends on the people in the relationship to choose how they are going to plan their family. I only want doctors to be honest with women and men about the possible health risks of their decisions, and I want people to not be able to legally kill their babies as a “family planning” decision.
So one can be abstinent, like Learning above, without giving a moments consideration to the fact that one is avoiding pregnancy. The morality or immorality of any act is dependent on the1) intention and/or consequences of the act, 2) the circumstances of the action, and 3) the object chosen. All three of these elements determine if an act is moral. Artificial contraception does not pass the third element because the sole purpose for artificial contraception is to prevent life. As said earlier, abstinence can have many purposes.
I need to clarify the above. Artificial contraception does not pass 1, 2, or 3 of the above elements of a moral act while NFP could pass or fail (have or have not) either of the first two elements depending on the person’s intention and circumstances. But unlike artificial contraception, NFP passes (has) the 3 element which makes an act moral. The object itself is not immoral in NFP, where as the object itself in artificial contraception is always immoral. In short, NFP can used as contraception or can be used to plan a family.
Yeah Tyler, I get it. But I don’t really care all that much. I’m not Catholic or a Christian, neither is Xalisae, and neither are the thousands and thousands of happily married couples who use the pill or condoms or whatever to plan their families. Your morality doesn’t apply to us.
A couple who uses condoms to avoid pregnancy and a couple who uses NFP to avoid pregnancy have the same 1 and 2 in your little scenario. They are both intended to avoid pregnancy and the consequence is that they don’t get pregnant (more often then not, nothing is 100% effective). The circumstances of the action are the same, they are both committed couples who are having a legitimate, loving sexual relationship for bonding and pleasure but are not ready/have other reasons for not wanting a child at the moment. The only difference is the NFP couple for whatever reason choose to use a method that involves working with natural fertile cycles, and the condom using couple chooses to use a barrier method. In my moral code the two couples are committing morally equivalent acts. I don’t see one couple as selfish, using, immoral, or “not open to life”, to quote insults directed at contracepting couples I have seen for years on this blog.
The example cited above by xalisae about the pill being used to help regulate her cycle so that she would be more fertile is a special case and could be misleading. This is because by using the drug for a different purposes, xalisae changed the intention of her pill use in her circumstances and thereby the nature of object chosen also changed if the pill was used solely for this purpose. In a case like this, the use of the pill could be considered morally licit, but its use would have to be confined to circumstances like this and the person/user would have to stop using the pill prior to having sex in order to avoid the possibility of aborting the preborn child due to the possible abortifacient effects of the pill.
Jack (and xalisae), for the record, I have not called anyone selfish for using artificial contraception. Please pay more careful attention to what I say. If you draw implications from what I have said that is your own doing.
And honestly, if I were a woman in a sexual relationship with a man, I wouldn’t use the pill, mostly for health and environmental reasons. When my daughter is older I’ll talk to her about my concerns about using hormonal medications like contraception, and I hope she chooses a different method of family planning. BUT, she’ll one day be an adult woman who can choose to take those risks or not, and I wouldn’t consider her stupid, and I wouldn’t assume she was running around having indiscriminate, promiscuous sex with user men just because she chose to get on the pill. I don’t see why you guys can’t see the difference between talking about your concerns and your experiences with hormonal contraception, and insulting and making assumptions about those who use it.
“Jack (and xalisae), for the record, I have not called anyone selfish for using artificial contraception. Please pay more careful attention to what I say. If you draw implications from what I have said that is your own doing.”
I didn’t say you did. The only person I have mentioned by name for saying anything like that was Sydney. I am saying these are things I have seen people say on this blog for years that I get tired of seeing.
And I will always find it fairly ridiculous to act like married couples who “indulge” in sex as much as they want are doing something wrong. If sex is a gift from God, and God designed human bodies to gain a lot of intense pleasure from sex and made us not “go into heat” like other mammals do, it would seem obvious to me that God intended humans to love sex and have a lot of it in monogamous relationships. Indulgence isn’t a bad thing necessarily and I think it’s rather sad when people paint it as if it were.
Jack, a person’s ability to ‘indulge’ in sex obviously depends on the person’s view of the morality of artificial contraception, or their understanding of NFP, as well as their desire to have children and their partner’s interest, and God’s will for some of us. However, I believe there is one virtue that is applicable to all of us and required by all of us when it comes to indulging in sex: prudence.
“However, I believe there is one virtue that is applicable to all of us and required by all of us when it comes to indulging in sex: prudence. ”
Yeah, we should all have prudence. I simply see nothing imprudent about indulging in sex with your monogamous partner when you’re both up for it. I see it imprudent (and can be abusive), to indulge in sex if your partner doesn’t really want to, you shouldn’t coerce or beg sex out of people even if you’re married (and I have no idea how that’s attractive at all, my wife was fine having sex with me when I’d be all “okay, but I really don’t want to at all”, how is that remotely sexy?). It’s imprudent to have sex with a lot of partners. It’s imprudent to have sex with someone who has an STD without taking measures to protect your health. But to have a lot of mutually consenting, enjoyable sex with your wife or husband, even if you are both fertile and wear a condom because you’re not looking to have another kid? I don’t think that’s imprudent at all. And I don’t think it’s more virtuous to deny you and your partner that pleasure and bonding. It’s morally neutral to me, don’t or do, it’s up to you.
Jack, you have to agree that it is not immoral “to have a lot of mutually consenting, enjoyable sex with your wife or husband, even if you are both fertile and wear a condom because you’re not looking to have another kid.” With respect to prudence rather than morality this action on the surface may appear prudent, but really it is only 97% prudent in theory, and about 50% prudent in actuality. Artificial contraception is not 100% fail-proof. In order to be more prudent you could double up on your artificial contraception (use a condom and the pill, for example) or abstain from sex which is 100% effective at preventing a pregnancy.
Jack, you’re blurring the line between the morality of certain sex acts with whether they are prudent. One can still be prudent, in the secular sense of the word, with respect to performing immoral acts. However, the traditional understanding of prudence would also stop you from engaging in immoral acts, because they could lead you to Hell, which would make engaging in the immoral act very imprudent, even if your secular prudence ensured that you didn’t acquire a STD and achieved your goal of not having a child.
But to have a lot of mutually consenting, enjoyable sex with your wife or husband, even if you are both fertile and wear a condom because you’re not looking to have another kid?
Wife or husband?
What about enjoyable sex with boyfriends, girlfriends, fiances, one-night stands, friends, co-workers, neighbors, best-friend’s spouses, bosses, siblings, parents, cousins, same-sex partners, or orgy groups? If these folks are all consenting adults and agree to a little pleasure and bonding, is it all morally neutral to you?
That’s a parental failing/decision. I don’t think teens are old enough to be involved in sexual relationships at all.
Well, there is an awful lot of teens who disagree with you. Lots of counselors, teachers, and doctors disagree with you too. Hence the ability to get a prescription for the pill even if the parent doesn’t agree. Hence schools and clinics handing out condoms. What do you think was a major factor in children now thinking they are old enough for sex?
“With respect to prudence rather than morality this action on the surface may appear prudent, but really it is only 97% prudent in theory, and about 50% prudent in actuality. Artificial contraception is not 100% fail-proof. In order to be more prudent you could double up on your artificial contraception (use a condom and the pill, for example) or abstain from sex which is 100% effective at preventing a pregnancy. ”
Again, you’re making unwarranted assumptions about people. You always go on about NFP couples being “open to life”, I don’t see why you’re assuming that contracepting couples don’t understand that all forms of contraceptives have a possibility of failure. They might be just fine with that and be as open to life, as in accepting the possibility of an unplanned pregnancy and be fine with it, as the NFP couple.
“Jack, you’re blurring the line between the morality of certain sex acts with whether they are prudent. One can still be prudent, in the secular sense of the word, with respect to performing immoral acts. However, the traditional understanding of prudence would also stop you from engaging in immoral acts, because they could lead you to Hell, which would make engaging in the immoral act very imprudent, even if your secular prudence ensured that you didn’t acquire a STD and achieved your goal of not having a child. ”
I was going by the definition of prudent as “Wise in handling practical matters; exercising good judgment or common sense.”. And I don’t believe having sex with your spouse is immoral if it’s mutually desired and consenting.
” What about enjoyable sex with boyfriends, girlfriends, fiances, one-night stands, friends, co-workers, neighbors, best-friend’s spouses, bosses, siblings, parents, cousins, same-sex partners, or orgy groups? If these folks are all consenting adults and agree to a little pleasure and bonding, is it all morally neutral to you? ”
This is why you guys come across as offensive in these type of conversations. You’ve somehow gone from me seeing nothing wrong or immoral about married couples having sex whenever they mutually desire and consent to it, to all kinds of sexual scenarios involving incest, infidelity, etc that have nothing to do with what I was talking about (a consenting, committed married couple having sex when they desire it). And it’s seriously unfair to use incest in your little scenarios when you’re talking to me. Not fair at all
” Well, there is an awful lot of teens who disagree with you. Lots of counselors, teachers, and doctors disagree with you too. Hence the ability to get a prescription for the pill even if the parent doesn’t agree. Hence schools and clinics handing out condoms. What do you think was a major factor in children now thinking they are old enough for sex?”
Yes, and the people who think it’s okay for developing teenagers to be involved in sexual relationships are wrong. I still think it’s parenting failure along with hormones.
Again, you’re making unwarranted assumptions about people. You always go on about NFP couples being “open to life”, I don’t see why you’re assuming that contracepting couples don’t understand that all forms of contraceptives have a possibility of failure. They might be just fine with that and be as open to life, as in accepting the possibility of an unplanned pregnancy and be fine with it, as the NFP couple.
Pull on the reigns, Jack. I think your argument is getting away from you.
I assumed nothing about people in general. I was responding directly to the example you provided about a married couple using a condom in order to not have children. Your original example said nothing about the couple being ok with children if the condom method failed and Mom became pregnant. Furthermore, I was only discussing prudence in my original post and, therefore, confined my response to your above example to the topic of prudence by pointing out the failure rates of condoms. So if you have a problem with the failure rates of condoms I suggest you take it up with the condom manufacturers.
BTW, all forms of artificial contraception methods have failure rates. NFP and abstinence do not have failure rates.
Yes it is definitely possible for a couple who used the condom method to be open to life after finding out conception has occurred. What is your point?
Gonna take a break from the conversation Tyler I’ll get back to you later.
Me too. Good night.
And it’s seriously unfair to use incest in your little scenarios when you’re talking to me. Not fair at all
Holy Moly. I forgot to check the NFP debate rules with you. Dang it.
Yes, and the people who think it’s okay for developing teenagers to be involved in sexual relationships are wrong.
Says you.
I don’t understand why you’re trying to hurt my feelings or something, I haven’t been rude I don’t think. I’m sorry if I have and upset you.
xalisae perhaps you can let me know who I was horrible to and what I said that was so horrible. Whatever it was, it obviously left an impression – so please let me know.
To think I brought up incest because I wanted to try to hurt you is way paranoid on your part, Jack.
It be like me saying that it’s seriously not fair that you have brought up issues surrounding date rape when I have been date-raped. Or that you have brought up spousal abuse when I have been abused by a spouse. Or that you bring up alcoholism because there are alcoholics in my family. Have you talked about all these issues in the past because you want to hurt my feelings or something?
I hope this helps. You are seriously reading into my comments.
I will check out for the time being as well. Peace to you my BroLifer!
Oh that’s not what I meant Im sorry I didnt explain it properly.
Ok, sorry about that Prax I wasn’t thinking clearly for a bit. I was being paranoid and I’m sorry.
I found an awesome website about NFP!
http://americanpregnancy.org/preventingpregnancy/fertilityawarenessNFP.html
“Fertility awareness or Natural Family Planning is a method of birth control that does not use any drugs or devices. It combines the calendar/rhythm method, the basal body temperature method, and the cervical mucus method…Typical use, which refers to the average use, shows a failure rate of approximately 25%. If you are committed to tracking and recording your fertility information, you can achieve much higher success rates.”
Just for the record, I’ve only used the pill myself twice in my life, and only for a span of about a month each time, because female hormones make me insane. I just don’t think it’s fair to talk crap about people just because you don’t agree with certain choices they’ve made in their lives.
If a woman confides in you that she is being raped by her partner you would recommend that it might be a good course of action to have her tubes tied? What about calling the police or hiding her out? What if she listens to you and has her tubes tied and then down the road escapes her rapist (without your help [emphasis mine]) and wants to have a baby? I really don’t understand enabling a rapist to continue raping someone by recommending that she needs to protect herself from her fertility. As if her fertility is the criminal. Goodness sakes.
Right. Because me giving instances in which a woman controlling her fertility TO HELP HER GET OUT OF AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP is totally exclusive to me also doing something like urging her to press charges or offering her a place to stay. Yep. No way I could do all of those at once. Now you’re not even trying to hide how insulting you’re being, and it’s just ignorant.
As I stated before, I’d present a lot of fertility control options to her, it’s up to her to decide which would work best for her in her situation. If she chose the option of having her tubes tied and later wanted to have a child, I’d point her in the same direction as much of the research I’ve been doing for myself. She’s not a child, and I’m not the boss of her. She’d be able to choose from many different options what is best for her. And, her fertility is not “criminal”, but acting as though an abusing partner won’t possibly use that to his advantage is just naive. From my experience, it happens. Oh, but wait, I’m sorry. I forgot nobody’s experience matters but Praxedes. Sorry!
Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, it’s not that some people here think they are better than you? That maybe, just maybe, it’s you that doesn’t think that you are as good as they are?
Hmmm…I’ll give that some serious consideration.
What about enjoyable sex with…one-night stands, friends, co-workers, neighbors, best-friend’s spouses, bosses, siblings, parents, cousins…or orgy groups? If these folks are all consenting adults and agree to a little pleasure and bonding, is it all morally neutral to you?
Nope, I’m pretty sure you all think you’re better than everyone else, since you compare some peoples’ perfectly healthy relationship intimacy with things like incest and indiscriminate sex.
The bullet-point I’d just really like to get across is simply this:
You all are just as alienating to many people who would like to join our cause as the A//A people I see frequently mentioned here as being detrimental to our cause. As long as you guys keep reaching out to the 50 year old Catholic grandma demographic and only them, you’re not going to get as far as you would if you could put your superiority complexes away for a minute and try to invite as many people here as wanted to be here.
That kills children.
And that is really my only concern.
“That kills children.
And that is really my only concern.”
THIS.
xalisae, the last time I checked in the x-book of manners calling young women in their twenties and thirties and forties ”Catholic Grandmas” wasn’t a very polite or inclusive thing to do. Moreover, what is wrong with reaching out to Catholic Grandmas? Do you not consider them part of the human family? My Catholic Grandmas have all been very nice and caring people. My son’s Catholic Great Grandma has provided the prolife movement with a lot of little prolifers!
xalisae, we all know that it is not that you don’t want Grandmas in the prolife movement. We know it really is the “Catholic” part of the “Catholic Grandma” that you don’t appreciate. We all know that you, along with some others, have a problem with certain aspects of Catholic morality.
Thanks for the apology, Jack. It sincerely means a lot to me and is accepted.
Nope, I’m pretty sure you all think you’re better than everyone else, since you compare some peoples’ perfectly healthy relationship intimacy with things like incest and indiscriminate sex.
We all think? I alone brought up all these relationships. I brought them up because there are other people who seriously think those other sexual relationships are just as healthy as yours is with your significant other. And who are you to say they’re not? I’m pretty sure you think you are better than them! I suppose since Jack believes a teen is not ready for sex and the teen believes they are, that he just thinks he is better than the teen! Or maybe he is trying to share the what he has learned with others to keep them from making what he believes to be the same mistakes. Some of us believe that NFP is better than artificial contraception based on statistics, studying the subject, discernment, discussion and personal experiences. Toughen up, X.
As long as you guys keep reaching out to the 50 year old Catholic grandma demographic and only them, you’re not going to get as far as you would if you could put your superiority complexes away for a minute and try to invite as many people here as wanted to be here.
Wow. Once again, we all better listen to you, use speech control, and walk on eggshells or we will scare some people away. I’m sure glad you got it all figured out. No one older or of a different religion has a thing to teach a young, hip person like yourself and grandmas should just keep silent (What about grandpas, can they comment? What about Hindus, do they pass your test? What about 20 year old Catholics?). Talk about a superiority complex.
Jill’s readers are still going up and her site reaches out to way more people than the small segment that you obviously have issues with. If someone is going to stop visiting a prolife site because some people who visit here support NFP, they have some issues. How controlling is that? ”You better not talk about something I disagree with (i.e. I better get my way) or I won’t come back and won’t even consider being prolife! Waaaa!”
And that is really my only concern.
Then maybe you should stick to topics that concern you and stop jumping into subjects you know little about in order to tell others how childish they are because the have different experiences and beliefs than you. Yours aren’t the only experiences either.
“I brought them up because there are other people who seriously think those other sexual relationships are just as healthy as yours is with your significant other.”
Oh, that’s why you brought them up. Okay, don’t you think it’s offensive to compare a married couple to someone in a “relationship” with a family member?
No, Jack. Because our analogies aren’t meant to be offensive, but everyone else’s are. Sheesh. A lot of yelling at the mirror here. (Not you or x, IMO.)
Cut it out, Jack.
Perhaps it is as offensive as comparing homosexual sex to heterosexual sex.
“Cut it out, Jack.”
What is it you want him to cut out?
You’re not the boss of me, Tyler!!
Lol but seriously, I wasn’t trying to be rude, I’m just mystified why people can’t see why someone would take offense to that kind of analogy? I overreacted before because I’m an idiot, but I don’t think many people would be appreciative of those type of comparisons.
The back and forth - the never ending taking offence at everyone’s comments, and purposefully misunderstanding their points.
Praxedes was acknowledging that we all have different perspectives based on our life experiences. What was wrong with that. In fact, Jack has made this point before.
I didn’t purposefully misunderstand anything, I was an idiot but not purposefully. Some subjects are touchier than others.
It didn’t come across clearly that she was attempting to make that point, which was my fault for misunderstanding.
I still think the analogy is rather offensive. I don’t think there are many married couples who would appreciate their love being compared as sinful as incest and infidelity and stuff. Just imo.
I still think the analogy is rather offensive. I don’t think there are many married couples who would appreciate their love being compared as sinful as incest and infidelity and stuff. Just imo.
That is her point, Jack!!!!!!! Do you really think Praxedes is pro-incest????? Ay caramba!!
Of course I don’t think that Tyler, where in the world did you get that? At all?
Well this conversation is just ridiculous now. Look, Tyler. I said that I see contracepting married sex and NFP married sex as morally equivalent, neutral, whatever. She makes the comparison of me thinking those are equivalent to people approving of relationships that involve things like infidelity and incest. I overreacted, obviously, but I don’t think the comparison is apt. There’s a big difference between a married couple using a condom and someone having sex with their family member, and I don’t think it was a fair comparison. Which I didn’t explain properly because I wasn’t thinking clearly.
But I’m not accusing her of supporting anything bad, I’m not mad at her, or accusing her of anything, or anything like that (apologized already for taking things the wrong way before). You’re way off-base here Tyler. Amusingly, while you accuse me of deliberately misunderstanding things you’re apparently doing just that.
WTH?
It’s like a train wreck in here.
Let me see if I got all the facts.
1. Jack (and others) don’t like to read that some people think contracepting sex is unhealthy or sinful. And the people that think that way clearly believe they are better than Jack (and others).
2. Jack (and others?) say if you think your teen is mature enough for a sexual relationship, you are wrong and are guilty of a parental failure. Jack (and others?) can make that judgment, not because they think they are better parents than others, but just because they are right gosh darn it!
3. Jack (and others?) get to decide what is an appropriate sexual relationship and what isn’t. If you mention the numerous sexual relationships that are currently happening in our society (some illegal, others not) and Jack believes that relationship is offensive, then you are a big meanie for bringing it up. The fact that there are actually people that believe those relationships are not unhealthy or sinful (the sickos!) is completely beside the point and doesn’t change the fact that NFP couples think they are better than others because they think sex involving contraceptives is unhealthy/sinful.
Whew! As long as everyone acknowledges that NFP couples are the dregs of society, we’re all good.
” 1. Jack (and others) don’t like to read that some people think contracepting sex is unhealthy or sinful. And the people that think that way clearly believe they are better than Jack (and others). ”
I’ve literally said nothing of the sort. You might want to read my comments instead of throwing my name on whatever you want.
I haven’t even said one word about people thinking they are better than anyone. Not one word. At all. Read my comments. I’ve said a lot of “I think” and “In my opinion” and “I believe” and even “This is morally okay for me”. Geez. I even have said “I think it’s great if you think NFP is right for you” and “If I were a woman I’d probably choose more natural methods”.
” 2. Jack (and others?) say if you think your teen is mature enough for a sexual relationship, you are wrong and are guilty of a parental failure. Jack (and others?) can make that judgment, not because they think they are better parents than others, but just because they are right gosh darn it!”
Okay, I do think that the plethora of teen sex is a combination of parenting failure and hormones, but that doesn’t make me any different from you all. And again, I haven’t said anything about people making moral judgments being wrong. I’ve been stating my opinion. Which, unless it lines up with yours, is apparently evil.
Shorter conversation:
“FFS, guys, be a little more respectful, and be open to sharing this movement with more than just Catholic grannies, & success will follow!”
“OMGZZ!!! WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST CATHOLIC GRANNIES?!?!?!!! YOU MUST HATE US, YOU FREAKING TROLLOP!! GO TURN TRICKS FOR YOUR BROTHER!!!!”
I’m done here. Thanks.
” 3. Jack (and others?) get to decide what is an appropriate sexual relationship and what isn’t. If you mention the numerous sexual relationships that are currently happening in our society (some illegal, others not) and Jack believes that relationship is offensive, then you are a big meanie for bringing it up. The fact that there are actually people that believe those relationships are not unhealthy or sinful (the sickos!) is completely beside the point and doesn’t change the fact that NFP couples think they are better than others because they think sex involving contraceptives is unhealthy/sinful.”
That’s not what I said, at all. Now you’re just making up things to make me look bad. ALL I have said about that particular subject is I think it’s unfair to compare a married couple using contraception to things like incestuous “couples” or infidelity. I don’t think it’s an apt analogy, and I think it can be offensive. Also, last night I was upset because I thought it was unfair to use examples of incest to me and expect me to think about it rationally, it’s a touchy subject for me, but I realized I was being an idiot and ridiculous AND I APOLOGIZED.
Again, I say “I think”, “I believe”, “My opinion is”, “Imo”, and things of that nature.
And I’ve never, not once on this thread, said I think people think they are better than anyone else or bad for using NFP. You’re mad at someone who isn’t me.
Seriously Lrning, you might want to actually read anything people say if you’re going to make up crap that they never said and don’t even think privately.
Whew! As long as everyone acknowledges that NFP couples are the dregs of society, we’re all good.
Wanting the same respect for contracepting couples as NFP couples isn’t a demand that NFP couples be thought of as the dregs of society. However, if you think of couples who use other means of contraception as “the dregs of society”, that’s the problem here, it’s yours not mine, and I don’t think demanding the same respect given to others is wrong.
Btw Lrning please don’t put Xalisae’s or anyone else’s words in my mouth. We’re not the same person and you can’t take what one of us says and get mad at the other person for it.
I said that I see contracepting married sex and NFP married sex as morally equivalent
Fine. But don’t be mystified when some people disagree with you.
but I don’t think many people would be appreciative of those type of comparisons.
Except for those people who don’t see a moral difference; they would probably just think that you disagree because you think you are a better person and tell you that you have a superiority complex.
She makes the comparison of me thinking those are equivalent to people approving of relationships that involve things like infidelity and incest.
I was making the comparison that some people see no moral difference between a married couple having sex, a committed couple having sex, an engaged couple having sex, friends with benefits, family members having sex (yes, I have met them), and those who cheat (“she doesn’t fulfill my needs”, yes, I have met them, too) and those who are swingers (I have a good friend who falls into this category). Some of the people involved in these sexual choices will make the argument that that they don’t see that what they are doing is any morally different than what a married couple does, “We don’t need a piece of paper to love each other.” I’ve heard this many times.
Your line of what is morally okay is different than what mine is. My line of what is morally okay has changed from what I believed as a teen and even as a young adult. I’m guessing yours may have a bit, too, as do many as we age.
It does get really old to be accused of scaring people away when NFP is brought up but I won’t back down either. I have a right to express my opinion as much as the next person. I have pointed out mistakes I have made in the past that I no longer think were good choices. Just because others believe that I and others think we are better because we believe that there is a difference between contracepting married sex and NFP married sex, doesn’t make it true.
I am no better than family members who are having a sexual relationship or a stripper or a cheating spouse or a prostitute. I am no better than a contracepting married couple or a woman who has aborted her child. I am just in a different chapter in the same book called Life as we all are. Had I had different experiences and life circumstances, I might be any one of them.
We are all beloved children of God.
I was an idiot but not purposefully.
Me too, many times.
Referncing my earlier comment of half of sexually active singles having an STD, here is a table referencing the data just for HPV alone. The study represents 39.5 million non-institutionalized women aged 15-59.
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/204/4/566/T1.expansion.html
Note the data is in Oxford Journel, journel of infectious diseases concerning study completed in the United States (volume 204, issue 4, pp 556 – 573). It is not a “slut guilt trip”. This is just the study and data regarding HPV. You can use this link to research the entire study results and details. You might note 15% of women with 0 lifetime sex partners have HPV with 8.7% contracting the higher risk forms. That is, contraction does not require penetration. Marital Status: Married 33%/21% hr, Widowed/Divorced/Sepderated 58%/37% hr, Never Married 53%/41% hr and Living with a Partner 65%/47% high risk. The study was broken down nearly every which way you may imagine. Age, etnicity, age of sexual debut, education, poverty level, number of partners lifetime and within last year, etc.
David
“Fine. But don’t be mystified when some people disagree with you.”
I’m not mystified by that. I’m mystified by the fact that people don’t seem to realize that if you make analogies like you did, that some people might not hear the message through the offense they take at it.
“Except for those people who don’t see a moral difference; they would probably just think that you disagree because you think you are a better person and tell you that you have a superiority complex.”
Which is not something I have said! Lrning accused me of saying such things, but I haven’t.
What I have said, and I do believe, is that it’s unwarranted and not a nice way of getting your point across if people make assumptions and judgments about people that use contraception that they have no way of knowing (Sydney’s comment about indiscriminate bar sex). You all talking about how NFP has improved your life or whatever, or why you think it’s the only moral way to space families, is a far cry from those type of comments. Which was how this argument started in the first place, because no one sees those comments as wrong except for the people they are directed at.
“I was making the comparison that some people see no moral difference between a married couple having sex, a committed couple having sex, an engaged couple having sex, friends with benefits, family members having sex (yes, I have met them), and those who cheat (“she doesn’t fulfill my needs”, yes, I have met them, too) and those who are swingers (I have a good friend who falls into this category). Some of the people involved in these sexual choices will make the argument that that they don’t see that what they are doing is any morally different than what a married couple does, “We don’t need a piece of paper to love each other.” I’ve heard this many times.”
Yes I see that, and you can make the comparison if you wish. I just think that it’s a good way to shut down the argument. (Before certain people on this thread jump on me THAT’S JUST MY OPINION OKAY? I’m not telling anyone they have to do anything). Like I took it the wrong way (my fault) because of the subject matter, and people I don’t think will hear you very well if you’re comparing their married relationships to the kind of stuff there. I get the point you were trying to get across, I just think it’s offensive. Again, for the peanut gallery who likes to put words in my mouth and yell at me, that is MY opinion.
“It does get really old to be accused of scaring people away when NFP is brought up but I won’t back down either. I have a right to express my opinion as much as the next person. I have pointed out mistakes I have made in the past that I no longer think were good choices. Just because others believe that I and others think we are better because we believe that there is a difference between contracepting married sex and NFP married sex, doesn’t make it true. ”
Yeah, everyone has the right to share their opinion. You simply can’t expect people not to argue with you though. And if people (not you) are making unwarranted and made up scenarios like Sydney did you have to expect that people will get mad.
And honestly, there’s nothing wrong with stating you believe contraception is immoral, doesn’t make it true though.
And to be clear before I get yelled at again. This is my opinion my opinion my opinion my opinion all the way.
I’m seriously, 100% done with people attacking me with crap I’ve never said and then claiming persecution. Done! If you’re not going to bother to read comments don’t join the conversation IN MY OPINION.
I’ve literally said nothing of the sort. You might want to read my comments instead of throwing my name on whatever you want.
I haven’t even said one word about people thinking they are better than anyone. Not one word. At all. Read my comments.
Ok. Jack, I went back and re-read all your comments and you are 100% correct. It was not you that said NFP users think they are better than others. I apologize, truly, for putting your name to words that were not yours.
Thanks for the apology, I’m sorry I got overly angry about it.
So, are we all cool now?
Except for you, JDC. We’re all mad at you. ;)
I’m waiting for an apology from Tyler.
“Except for you, JDC. We’re all mad at you. ”
I’ll win you all back one of these days…
You simply can’t expect people not to argue with you though.
I have no problem with others arguing with me. I can dish it back to the best of ’em.
The facts prove that Jill’s site has been steadily increasing in support so this old Catholic gal (not a grandma yet that I know of but can’t wait till I am!) will just keep doing what I’m doing.
WTH?It’s like a train wreck in here.
LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PyRZTAmcW7c
I do think it’s interesting that people seem to find it just fine to make all kinds of assumptions and analogies about those who use contraception but get horribly offended when they think people are making unfair assumptions about themselves for using NFP. Maybe people should think about that. If it offends you when it’s done to you, maybe you can consider how other people feel when the same kind of thing is said about them.
And can I please request, as politely as possible, that people not use consensual incest in their analogies when speaking to me. Like, use anything else. Use polygamy or orgies or whatever. It just triggers my PTSD rather badly. To be clear I’m not telling anyone they can’t say anything, it’s just a request.
I will definitely try my best to remember that, Jack!
Jack, you said “people I don’t think will hear you very well if you’re comparing their married relationships to the kind of stuff there. I get the point you were trying to get across, I just think it’s offensive.”
My guess is you think it’s offensive because you’ve made a moral judgment about “the kind of stuff there” and found it morally inferior to married relationships. I think that was the very point Praxedes was making. You are making moral judgments just as much as those denouncing contraception as unhealthy/sinful/morally inferior to not using contraception. I totally understand & agree that making assumptions or speaking rudely of people that use contraception is offensive. If you believe I have done that, I hope you will specifically point it out to me so I can do better in the future. That was not my intent with anything I wrote here.
“My guess is you think it’s offensive because you’ve made a moral judgment about “the kind of stuff there” and found it morally inferior to married relationships. ”
I don’t pretend I don’t make moral judgments, everyone does. My point, which apparently I’m having issues getting across, is that using something that’s almost universally taboo and reviled across most cultures (like incest) as an analogy to something as common as contraception is probably going to turn people off your point. Are you all going for shock value or trying to make your point? That’s what I mean. And a lot of people have been cheated on, and a lot of people have been victimized by incest, so using things like that is probably going to cause some pain for people and they might not be able to look past that and see the point. If you want to risk using analogies like that, whatever, but I personally think it’s a bad idea and find it offensive. And again me me me, I I I, that’s just my opinion on the matter.
It’s like, I suppose I could compare spanking kids as discipline to beating your kids with a leather belt until they are scarred for life, and I might find it a valid analogy, but I bet I wouldn’t use it when debating with a spanking parent and expect them to see what kind of point I was making through the offense they would take at it. Especially if they were victimized by beatings as a kid. Does it make sense put that way?
“I totally understand & agree that making assumptions or speaking rudely of people that use contraception is offensive. If you believe I have done that, I hope you will specifically point it out to me so I can do better in the future. That was not my intent with anything I wrote here. ”
No, that’s just what annoyed Xalisae in the first place, the unwarranted rude comments about women getting on the pill just to go sleep around at the bar, no one ever calls it out besides one of us who aren’t against contraception. But say something against NFP users and everyone is up in arms about how unfair it is. That was what I was saying, I didn’t direct that comment at you personally.
Jack, I refer to a trigger sentence at the end of this post (the last two paragraphs) in an attempt to make a point to someone else. I just wanted to warn you if you would rather not read it. Take care.
No, that’s just what annoyed Xalisae in the first place, the unwarranted rude comments about women getting on the pill just to go sleep around at the bar
The fact remains that some women do get on the pill just to go sleep around (although I believe most of them are looking for love; I know this included me) and it was Xalisae who used the word ‘slut’, not anyone else. I don’t believe that if Sydney had added that she realizes that there are married women who take the pill that it would have made any difference in Xalisae’s reactions.
If Sydney had made the comment that men carry condoms in their wallet just to go sleep around would the reaction have been the same? “Ohmygosh, I can’t believe you said men carry condoms just so they can go sleep around?! How unwarranted and rude!” Would Sydney have had to add that she realizes that there are married men that also use condoms in order not to face Xalisae’s wrath?
And it’s not just men carrying condoms these days. We all know that there are plenty of women and teens carrying condoms and condoms are being handed out to singles and kids. Most of us realize that many single people are carrying condoms around (for no other reason than to have sex outside of marriage) but if this had been pointed out here, it doesn’t mean we don’t realize that married people use condoms with each other as well.
If you were on a first date with someone and a condom fell out of their wallet, purse, pocket, etc. would you be impressed? I personally would be offended. But if a single woman is on the pill she and her date finds out, she can always say that she is on it for medical reasons. I believe Xalisae was reading into Sydney’s comment and way overreacted.
That being said, I believe there is only one way to read into these comments of Xalisae’s:
You are not better than anyone else
Seriously, Grow up, people!
You gotta feed that ego, man!
Oh yeah, so you can feel like you’re better than someone else
holier-than-thou attitude
Tyleritis
belittle contraception-using adults as stupid sluts
sound like spoiled, jealous children
instead of subscribing to your dogma and cow-towing to the “blessing” of sacrificing a rich, full sex life to your god…
immature
you all think you’re better than everyone else
As long as you guys keep reaching out to the 50 year old Catholic grandma demographic and only them
put your superiority complexes away for a minute and try to invite as many people here as wanted to be here
Based on Xalisae’s comments and reactions, I personally believe that there is way more to what annoys Xalisae about NFP supporters than that one comment made by Sidney but readers can decide for themselves.
I brought up people’s different sexual choices and a couple of these choices so offended Xalisae that she said this, “I’m pretty sure you all think you’re better than everyone else, since you compare some peoples’ perfectly healthy relationship intimacy with things like incest and indiscriminate sex” but earlier it was she who said ”something as trivial as someone’s sexual habits are none of my business and don’t speak to anyone’s essence as a person.”
So what is it, X? Some people’s sexual habits are trivial and don’t speak to their essence but others’ sexual choices are indiscriminate and terrible? Or is it majority rules even though we know the majority has been wrong before. Based on your seemingly conflicting statements in the paragraph above, it appears it is you who has a corner on the truth.
Lol well I didn’t read the last half of your comment Prax, but I would take issue with this:
” If Sydney had made the comment that men carry condoms in their wallet just to go sleep around would the reaction have been the same? “Ohmygosh, I can’t believe you said men carry condoms just so they can go sleep around?! How unwarranted and rude!” Would Sydney have had to add that she realizes that there are married men that also use condoms in order not to face Xalisae’s wrath?”
Well I don’t know about Xalisae but those type of comments irritate me, along with the annoying comments infantilizing women and vilifying men, as if women are never the ones who make bad decisions or initiate anything and men are never the ones being used or otherwise harmed. I just don’t often call them out because that’s like, 90% of what I would argue about on this blog because those comments are so common.
If I were on a first date with someone and a condom fell out of their pocket I’d be… I don’t know. Probably say something like “yeah that’s not happening tonight” and make a joke about it. Maybe decide that isn’t the right person for me to be dating. I probably wouldn’t assume they were a slut, people carry condoms for future use w/o necessarily wanting to pick up one night stands or flings.
Agree or disagree with x, if she really did think she was better than everyone else, don’t you think her nom de plume would at the very least be “Xalisae”, not “xalisae”, if you haven’t noticed? Maybe a little sign of humility, eh?
Come to think of it I have condoms somewhere in my dresser, Idk where, from when I was married. Certainly hope no one would make any unwarranted assumptions about me if they go to borrow a pair of socks, lol.
They’d make great earrings for some MSNBC hosts.
No, they could make hats out of my old condoms! Hey, I still have some of my ex-wife’s tampons in the linen closet, I should donate them to MSNBC!
Based on Xalisae’s comments and reactions, I personally believe that there is way more to what annoys Xalisae about NFP supporters than that one comment made by Sidney but readers can decide for themselves.
What an astute observation! This isn’t simply my reaction to just that one comment made by Sidney. This is the outcome of years of such frequent degradation. I’m sick of it, and I want things to change. I’ve talked to too many people who would be so much more comfortable being open and vocal about their pro-life leanings, who don’t want to be associated with crap like this and therefore remain silent fence-sitters. I’m not fighting this fight because of me. I’m not fighting for this because *I’M* offended. I’m fighting this because it makes The Movement as a whole look bad, alienates people that WE NEED on our side, and keeps our numbers smaller than they should be thereby scaring people away from the information they need to help. save. babies.
Now that that is out of the way:
We all make moral judgements about sexual behaviors. There are certain ones that I don’t think are anyone’s business, because they’re the personal decisions of consenting adults that have met on equal ground and aren’t hurting anyone, nor do they harm society as a whole.
Comparing those such encounters to thinks like infidelity and incest is wrong. Incest is wrong for many reasons, because it harms society and is usually the result of one family member exerting influence due to authority over another. It’s betraying familial bonds, which harms not only the family member(s), but society as a whole, and also harms the human race by possibly adding members with genetics that tend to be more flimsy than those of a more diverse union. Infidelity is also wrong, because it betrays the trust of a partner and hurts them (typically). I don’t see why the idea is so hard to understand…Even the reason indiscriminate sex is viewed as less licit than a responsible, monogamous couple engaging in coitus is for the reason that it has the capacity to hurt one or both parties (due to disease, or as you cited earlier, hurt feelings due to conflicting goals in the…ahem….”relationship”), but also the capacity to create another human being who would be instantly disadvantaged most likely by the haphazard relationship between that individual’s parents. But that only cements my already strong resolve in support of contraception, and as a matter of fact, overlapping forms used in tandem and knowledge of risks and benefits thereof.
http://blog.secularprolife.org/2013/07/fewer-abortions-fewer-births-ca-teen.html
Don’t ever let them in your sock drawer, Jack! That’s were all the good stuff is! lol
Condoms make good water balloons for the kiddies. I am very frugal and was brought up to waste not, want not! (:
Probably say something like “yeah that’s not happening tonight” and make a joke about it. Maybe decide that isn’t the right person for me to be dating. I probably wouldn’t assume they were a slut
I wouldn’t assume they were a slut either. You already know what I would do, though. I would lecture them until they walked out on me. I’m so happy that my husband’s condom didn’t fall out of his wallet on our first date and that he didn’t ask to borrow a pair of my socks a few months later!
if you haven’t noticed
I have. And you may have noticed I always address her using a big X.
Oh and I forgot, I really appreciate the trigger warning Prax. Thank you.
And I address her the way I assume she wants, with a lower case “x”. Just like I wouldn’t call Sydney Sidney. But then, maybe it’s a form of OCD.
But kudos on the Josh Turner link.
X, If you are ever willing to study NFP and the reasons the Church supports it but does not support artificial contraception, then we may be able to have a rational debate. Until then, I really don’t think it is possible. Our mindsets, beliefs and knowledge about the topic are just too different at this point. You are coming from a secular view (which I have already studied, btw) and I am not.
As far as people choosing to stay out of the prolife movement because they don’t agree with some prolifers on some topics, that’s on them. I don’t believe in lying about my beliefs to make someone feel more comfortable. If you are willing to do that, so be it. The fact is that abortion kills an innocent human and anyone who whines that they won’t become involved because there are people who support NFP can kiss my old, Catholic future-granny (hopefully) rear end.
Some people are saying things you don’t want to hear and that you believe are wrong. I get that. It’s time to woman-up and show some tolerance for people that are different than you.
Some people are saying things you don’t want to hear and that you believe are wrong. I get that. It’s time to woman-up and show some tolerance for people that are different than you.
Um, could I suggest that everyone should take that to heart?
I’m stuck in the middle. I agree the more natural and less potentially harmful the method, the better. But I also wouldn’t put someone through the ringer for having differing opinions that are informed more from a religious or non-religious viewpoint.
Which would mean just about everyone, I guess. We agree on “Do not kill.” We’re hung up on “Do not harm.” That’s the arguable part. As we have proven.
And I address her the way I assume she wants, with a lower case “x”.
I think at one time I asked if I could just use X. I could be wrong and if just using X or capitalizing your name offends, please let me know. There is no intention to offend. I was taught that capitalizing someone’s name was a sign of respect and that is why I have done so. My name has been misspelled quite often and I never assume it was done on purpose but maybe it has been. I have to be careful with paranoid thinking sometimes myself and try to assume the best about people’s intentions.
Your welcome, Jack.
I really like that Josh Turner song and video, Hans. That’s one train I was on for too long and hope to stay off of.
I actually don’t know for sure. Maybe it’s subconscious on her part. Everyone has their quirks, like those little circles (or worse, hearts) dotting an “i”.
I think “Long Black Train” was his breakout song around five years ago. We’ve all had to deal with that ol’ Temptation Train.
My name lowercase is usually a euphemism for masturbation (which I find really really annoying), so I really hope people don’t forget to capitalize mine!
I secretly like Josh Turner (and a lot of country music) but I won’t admit in real life to most people lol.
Um, could I suggest that everyone should take that to heart?
Point heard and taken. Now I gotta check if the train I’m currently in is long and black. Thanks, Hans.
Goodnight all.
Jack, your name is one of my favorite names for boys. :)
because it harms society
Says you and I. That is our belief but it is not the belief of those participating in those particular sexual habits. As I mentioned, I have met some of them and they will tell you that their choices are are none of your business and if you attempt to discuss the reasoning behind your beliefs, you will be viewed as holier-than-thou.
Others, myself included, believe artificial contraception harms society and there are studies that explain why we believe this. This is obviously not the belief of those who choose to use artificial contraception.
That is our belief but it is not the belief of those participating in those particular sexual habits.
And I would be inclined to believe them if they were engaging in such behaviors as responsibly as possible. I guess that’d were we differ. I’m willing to give adults the benefit of the doubt, whenever possible. So be it.
Others, myself included, believe artificial contraception harms society and there are studies that explain why we believe this. This is obviously not the belief of those who choose to use artificial contraception.
And that’s fine. I’m not asking anyone to lie about their beliefs. I’m just asking them to be more respectful and accepting of the beliefs of those who differ. That is all.
And I would be inclined to believe them if they were engaging in such behaviors as responsibly as possible.
If you know of a way to responsibly cheat on one’s spouse, please let me know.
I’m just asking them to be more respectful and accepting of the beliefs of those who differ.
I’m just asking that you be more respectful and not expect people to be willing to accept beliefs they find immoral. When my friend was cheating on her husband, she wanted me to accept her belief that her choice was okay but also wanted me to cover her tracks for her. I wouldn’t accept it but had to tolerate it as a choice she was making. Too many people were going to end up hurt (and they were). Her husband was also a friend and I told her she needed to tell him or I would. If my husband came home today and told me he was cheating and that he wanted me to be accepting of his sexual choice, I would have to help him pack his bags. This would break up yet another family and society would be harmed as a result.
Are you willing to accept the beliefs of women who think it is okay to abort their unborn child? They believe that they are making a responsible choice. You may have to tolerate abortion because it has been embraced by our county but that is a far cry from saying you accept it. But proaborts absolutely think we should accept their belief in abortion.
And no I’m not comparing sexual behaviors to the killing of humans but I do believe the Contraception Culture lead to our current Culture of Death. What I am saying is that no one should be expected to accept behaviors they believe to be immoral. This message has been pushed across our country for years: ”If you don’t accept my sexual choices as normal and healthy, you are the intolerant and hateful one!” There are people who think that I and others like me should pay for choices they are making even though we believe those choices are immoral and unhealthy.
“This message has been pushed across our countries for years: ”If you don’t accept my sexual choices as normal and healthy, you are the intolerant and hateful one!” There are people who think that I and others like me should pay for choices they are making even though we believe those choices are immoral and unhealthy.”
I think I would probably convert to Christianity if all they said about sexuality that they don’t like is “immoral and unhealthy”. Just kidding, but seriously. There’s a difference between saying “I think this is immoral” and making up a bunch of stuff about people and calling them names. The problem is that I don’t think a lot of you see the difference.
Alexandra I like my name, I don’t like all the nicknames people make out of it and I don’t like the songs that contain it lol.
And I don’t teach Theology of the Body because I think I’m better. I don’t make a dime teaching it and there are other things I would rather do with my free time.
I teach it because I was called to it through prayer by God and because I don’t want to see young people make the same choices that hurt me. I do it because I care. That is all.
Who are you talking to Jack? Have I called anyone names here?
I’m just talking in general, you’re not calling names. It just gets old to see people be like “well, we love the sinner, but gay people/contraception users/whatever are nasty, perverted. users who are selfish and etc etc etc”. That gets really old and probably a lot of the reason there’s such a backlash to people genuinely trying to talk about why they believe certain choices are wrong.
Thanks, Jack. Just want to keep myself in check.
Sorry I should have been more clear. I do think it’s unfortunate though, people are so used to just getting insulted and degraded that they react strongly to people simply sharing their views. We should all try to be clear and nicer.
I do think it’s unfortunate though, people are so used to just getting insulted and degraded that they react strongly to people simply sharing their views.
I know all about being insulted and degraded. I can’t control any one else’s behaviors but I can control whether I react strongly to them or not. (:
Prax, I’m imagining you smiling while standing on your head. :)
” I know all about being insulted and degraded. I can’t control any one else’s behaviors but I can control whether I react strongly to them or not. (:”
Lol well that’s something I have to work on, I’m like the king of overreacting to insults.