Man commits suicide in hospital after the birth of his child
For many men, a new baby is a terrifying prospect. It means a lot of responsibility. After all, a new life is completely dependent on them. It’s scary for women, too, but we have nine months to get used to it as we bond with the baby inside us. Could this have played into his decision to end it? We may never know.
But I keep thinking of his poor wife. Here she is, probably still in pain from everything her body has just gone through. She is likely exhausted, elated, overwhelmed, and emotional. It’s some of the happiest and most overwhelming moments of her life. And then this. He took that joy away from her.
In many ways, that just seems so cruel.
~ Sasha Brown-Worsham commenting on the report of a man who killed himself hours after the birth of his baby, The Stir, August 13
[HT: Laura Loo]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Its a sad story but who will ever know why he did it. Maybe he felt he couldn’t afford a baby. Look at Scott Peterson ….he resorted to double homicide. He may have been very depressed over other things.
To clarify I don’t condone what Peterson did but after reading a book about him it was explained that Laci had a condition where doctors told her she would never get pregnant so when she did Scott was less than thrilled. However was unhappy to read she was choosing abortion had the baby had DS. Anyway I went to the entire article about this guy and it just said he and his wife were fighting before he shot himself. Probably some underlying problems.
Suicide is cowardly.
Seek help when you feel completely hopeless and have suicidal thoughts.
A permanent solution to a temporary problem. With help this Mommy and Daddy could be home enjoying their sweet baby.
“A permanent solution to a temporary problem.”
Kind of reminds me of something else…
Yes. Me too.
“But I keep thinking of his poor wife”
World ends women hit hardest.
Suicide isn’t “cowardly”, in a lot of cases it’s due to mental illness, and major depressive disorder is notoriously hard to treat. I feel bad for his wife, but I do have a lot of sympathy for him. I wonder how much pain he was in and how long, before he ended it.
I think a valid reason for having more sympathy on the woman in this scenario is that the man is dead. Sympathies at this point do him no good. Perhaps sympathy for her may lead some to help her. Now he is beyond our help.
Jack, I’ve always considered suicide to be - maybe not cowardly, but self-centered. And that attitude can very well sink one into mental illness. Unless there is absolutely no one in the world who cares about the person, he is hurting others as well as himself.
We can have sympathy for both. We can refrain from insulting his memory, at that the very least. And sympathy for him can help people who feel like he did feel more able to reach out for help, instead of feeling shamed and judged for having feelings outside of their control.
If he were a post-abortive woman everyone would be falling all over themselves to talk about how tragic it is, instead of making judgments about his character.
Hans, mental illness is just that, an illness. We don’t judge asthmatics for having lungs that don’t work properly, or any other physical illness, we get that they need medical help for things that they can’t control. But magically, when it comes to a malfunctioning brain and whacked-out neurotransmitters, everyone seems to think that there are different rules, that if you just try hard enough you’ll be magically not ill. Doesn’t work like that. Putting a stigma on depression and suicidal ideation (as in, treating it as a character failing like some people are doing, rather than an illness that needs treatment) just causes more of it.
But many, if not most, illnesses were spawned or exacerbated by outside behavior. Not all of these are as obvious as lung cancer or stds.
But it’s hard to tell, and you’re right to give the benefit of the doubt. Was this man mentally ill or was it a snap “Woe is me / I”ll show her!” situation?
Okay, I went to the link like Heather did and I should have. “Recently distraught” is not proof of a long-term underlying mental illness. We’ve all been distraught. When we were teens we were lying in bed in the dark moping that it might be easier not to go on.
Most of us get over it. If not for ourselves, then for others.
Hans, mental illness is just that, an illness. We don’t judge asthmatics for having lungs that don’t work properly, or any other physical illness, we get that they need medical help for things that they can’t control. But magically, when it comes to a malfunctioning brain and whacked-out neurotransmitters, everyone seems to think that there are different rules, that if you just try hard enough you’ll be magically not ill
Thanks, Jack. I mentioned I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder when I was in my early twenties. I will have to take medications every day for the rest of my life to control it. Yet I’ve been told to “snap out of it,” that my illness is “fake,” and that I just need to pray and it will “just go away.” None of the above!
I wouldn’t call suicide cowardly. It’s an act of despair and desperation. I almost succeeded in a suicide attempt. I’m glad I didn’t, because I would have missed some wonderful things — the birth of my grandchildren, my beautiful daughter marrying the man she loves. And I’m still waiting to see my Eagles lift that Lombardi trophy high above their heads!
Being one of the ones who has struggled with mental illness (in my case, depression) for most of my life, I do tend to take exception to characterizing suicide as “cowardly”. I’ve attempted suicide more than once and there’s nothing cowardly about it. Unless someone has been there, it’s hard to imagine how dark a place it is and how impossible it seems that things will ever be any different. Thank God I’m on medication that keeps me on an even keel. I feel sorry for both spouses in this case.
Hans, so do you know his psychiatric history? Do you know if his family has a history of mental illness, abuse, anything like that? Do you know why he was recently distraught (possibly depression or another illness manifesting recently after struggling with it for a long time). You simply don’t know.
Most of us don’t kill ourselves, some of us have to take meds and struggle every day to avoid doing so. If I don’t take my meds for literally like a week I start planning suicide again, it’s an extremely hard thing to manage. Mental illness is a real thing, it’s not something you can buck up and get over if people tell you that you’re weak and selfish and cowardly enough. It’s apparently difficult for people to understand if they don’t struggle with mental illness, but it’s just as real as diabetes or any physical illness. I’m gonna err on the side of caution in cases like this, because most mentally healthy people don’t blow their brains out, and I’m not willing to discourage people from seeking help by shrugging off suicidal ideation and depression as a character flaw.
And no one is saying that it’s impossible for people to make their mental illnesses worse, just like it’s possible to make physical illnesses worse. Exercise can help, eating right can help, avoiding alcohol and drugs definitely helps. But even if you do everything “right” you still have an illness. A diabetic might need less insulin if they exercise and eat right, but they still have an illness and might need medications.
Like I said, if he were a woman, and in his fit of desperation and unhappiness killed his unborn baby instead of himself, people would be making excuses left right and center for this behavior. Which is fine by me, I’d rather understand and help people who did desperate things rather than condemn them, but that should extend to suicidal men as well as scared pregnant women.
Here is a semi-positive suggestion: maybe this man was so depressed he had been planning suicide for months. Maybe the only thing keeping him alive was the idea of seeing his baby before he died. Maybe in his own mind, this act was selfless.
Please, do not judge this poor man. Depression and suicidal nature does not choose only the weak, selfish, stupid and cruel. This man’s perception of reality was different from our own- it was a world that was dark and had no place for him. He was probably convinced that it was better for his wife and child if he were dead. I’ve been in that dark place, and it’s not a matter of character, but chemistry. Mental illness is a real and serious issue. When studies show women who are post-abortive have higher suicide rates, it’s seen as a tragedy but pro-lifers. When this happens it’s selfish? What a sad double standard.
I am not talking about mental illness or bipolar disorder or those on medication. I am not talking about all of us that know someone who has struggled or are struggling right now.
Let’s stay on track.
I am talking about a man who intentionally ended his life at a time his wife and child needed him.
Suicide is cowardly. It is a selfish act. It is a cowardly ACT. It leaves behind those that have to wonder for the rest of their lives what they did or did not do and how they should have or could have helped and then not knowing WHY.
I have been suicidal and have attempted suicide. I was thinking only of myself. Nobody else. And my selfish desires to end my pain. Not the pain I would have brought to my family and friends and those that love me.
There is ALWAYS hope and there are times to reach out for it. He didn’t.
I am not going to pretend what was going on his head. Maybe he was this or that or thought this or that????
Who knows but him?
I am condemning the ACT of suicide.
Not the man.
Let’s be clear on that ok??
Edit: Oh I see the difference, sorry Carla! I still don’t find suicide “cowardly”, I just think it’s desperate but to each their own. I doubt it helps anyone to tell them that they are contemplating something selfish and cowardly and they are hurting everyone. If you feel like you’re screwing up everyone’s life by existing I doubt hearing more of the same that goes through your head is going to help.
I think a valid reason for having more sympathy on the woman in this scenario is that the man is dead. Sympathies at this point do him no good. Perhaps sympathy for her may lead some to help her. Now he is beyond our help.
Agreed Elizabeth G.
The act of abortion is selfish. The act of abortion is cowardly.
The act of suicide is selfish. The act of suicide is cowardly.
It takes strength and humility and hope to reach out to others. It takes a great deal of courage to admit that you want to kill yourself and yet TURN AWAY from it.
That is the opposite of cowardly. Seeking help is strength.
I am not talking about you Jack.
I am not talking about anyone on this thread but this man that ended his life when intervention might have saved him.
Now we have a dead man. And a widow and a baby without a father.
And my heart aches at the pointlessness and finality of that.
I wouldn’t call anyone cowardly if they were struggling. And I think you know that. I would do what I could to help. And restore hope.
Because suicide involves an act of the will, it is a little hard to only consider it a disease as if he had asthma. Yes, mental illness is a disease, but there is a lot that a person can do for themselves even though they can’t permanently undo the illness. For example, person with asthma can take up smoking even though her parents warned her of the effects and dangers. Can we judge her? To some extent, yes. She willfully took on an addictive behavior that could cause her a trip to the emergency room or worse.
I know people who are mentally ill who try to adapt and make a tremendous effort to be as functional as they can. It insults THEM to just sweep away an act of suicide as if all mentally ill people are the same.
I am very worried about the people in our world because every month, every year, suicide becomes more and more acceptable. It’s not. It’s a preventable tragedy that no family member should have to clean up after. A parent who loses a child to suicide never fully gets over it, no matter how functional they try to be. We simply MUST be judgmental about suicide to some extent while still maintaining compassion for the person. If we don’t fight against suicide and euthanasia then we are not as pro-life as we can be. And if we accepted society’s downward slide via abortion and suicide, then we are willfully creating the Carousel of the movie Logan’s Run. I love sci-fi, but I don’t want to live it in real life.
Excellent ninek!
Suicide is not pro life.
Just as the act of abortion intentionally ends the life of one made in the image of God so does suicide. By ones own hand.
Final. Tragic.
I am praying for this mommy and her baby. She will need the help and support of others.
When I was a teen I fell into a seriously deep depression and yes, thought of ending it all. Fortunately, a classmate told the school nurse and within a short time people in authority took me under their wings. One of my favorite teachers told me, “I would miss you. It would break my heart..” Yes, that did make a difference.
Decades later, a close friend lost one of her young adult children to suicide. I have never in my life seen such a devastating grief, and no words can describe the mother’s utter despair. I know that part of the illness IS the inability of the person to perceive how much it would hurt the people you leave behind. I might have caused my own mother that kind of grief! That would be horrible beyond words.
“Suicide is cowardly.”
Wrath of garbage. To be at the end of your rope (perhaps literally as well as figuratively), to say to yourself, “If I do what I am about to do, in two minutes I will no longer be a living person.” And to know that you will be deliberately sending yourself into whatever might await us when we die: heaven, hell, purgatory, reincarnation, delayed nirvana, nothing, whatever. And then to think of your life and say, “Yeah, I’ll take my chances,” and do it anyway, because whatever you’re trying to escape is that bad.
Tragic? Yes. Cowardly? Not even close.
I have been suicidal and have thoughts of ending it myself. Depression is an ongoing horrible illnesses. After my husband died I think of suicide often.
bm, then you must think the 9/11 terrorists are heroes, oh so brave? BS. Huge crock of it.
“bm, then you must think the 9/11 terrorists are heroes, oh so brave?”
Does “not cowardly” automatically mean hero?
bmmg
so what is suicide to you?
Awful, desperate, tragic, final, etc etc etc. Selfish fits too. I don’t really think of it as cowardly.
The 9/11 terrorists were terrorists. Murderers. Their main purpose was not the end of their own lives, it was the ending of the lives of others. Their ‘act’ was the ‘act’ that they committed against others. They just allowed themselves to be collateral damage in the belief that this would impress their god. They considered it sacrifice, not suicide.
Perhaps the term ‘suicide bomber’ is wrong. Is there a better term? I don’t think it should include the word ‘sacrifice’ as that is too honorable for them.
I do Jack.
Which is why I wrote it.
As for post abortive women there are too many to count that I know that have had suicidal thoughts and attempted it. BUT they did not die. They lived. They found hope and help and a reason to live again! And that takes courage and a spirit and belief that you are not just put here on this earth for yourself.
And I would have to agree with ninek about parents of children who commit suicide. Their pain and anguish is beyond anything I have ever seen.
If suicide is heroic why would parents, family members, friends etc. be so torn up over it?? Why do they grieve so and feel such deep guilt?
On thinking, let’s talk about steeling one’s nerves and pressing on with a terrible act: is that not like an abortion? Do the PP escorts exist in order for us NOT to interfere and NOT to allow mothers to pause once more and consider such a permanent, deadly act? Is abortion not cowardly? It is. Humans must value the flame of life at any point on the spectrum of life from conception to natural death. Anything else leads us to where we are today: the legal killing of unborn humans, the legal killing of sick and/or elderly humans, and in Belgium the legal killing of born children who are deemed unacceptable. THAT’s where it leads and that’s why we must always fight it. Depression is a disease and suicide is NOT the cure.
Where do you see people defending suicide as a valid option? Disagreeing with characterizing people who commit suicide as cowards doesn’t mean that anyone is pro-suicide. For goodness sake.
And exactly zero people called suicide “heroic”, so you guys are arguing against something that no one is saying.
Jack, outside Jill’s site, there are a LOT of people defending suicide as just another lifestyle choice that we all should get with the program and respect. And, you’ll notice I phrased it as a question for bmm, not a statement.
Where did I call this man a coward? The act of suicide is cowardly.
I can separate what someone does from who they are.
Well,
What is suicide? To anyone that wants to answer that.
I don’t know what happens after anyone kills themselves. I hope they don’t burn in hell. That’s the only reason I haven’t. I knew a guy who had a schizophrenic brother and he jumped off a bridge and died. Some people are tired. Some people just can’t live with depression anymore.
So is suicide a valid choice for those that are tired?
Or just don’t want to be here?
Is suicide wrong? Why or why not?
It may not be a “valid choice” (whatever that means, I’m never sure what people mean when they say that). It’s certainly tragic, and I do understand why people feel that is their only option. If words like “happy”, “content”, “joy”, “peace”, “rest” or even “okay”, are just words, rather than something you can ever remember really experiencing, then an end to it starts looking like your best option. And if you can see that having you around is just causing people pain, others telling you how selfish and cowardly committing suicide is will not help, because you see your continued existence as the worse of two evils. And if the world just seems like a depressing, painful place where the bad constantly outweighs the good, it is certainly tempting to want to accelerate your death, whether it’s doping yourself up so much you can’t hurt anymore or killing yourself.
It’s certainly possible to sometimes manage these thoughts even if you can’t overcome them completely, but it’s a struggle, and some forms of depression are extremely difficult to treat. So, I really can’t find it in my heart to talk over and over about what a selfish and cowardly act it is, I don’t think it helps. It’s a bit different from ninek’s teacher saying “I would miss you if you were gone”. One of them is extending love, the other just seems like it’s condemning. That’s just my opinion.
Suicide should be condemned, just like abortion should be. No one here is trying to talk a suicidal person off the ledge by telling them that it’s a selfish, cowardly act. But suicide is a horrible, tragic choice and should be condemned. Recognizing that fact leads us as a society to set up suicide hot lines and education programs to deal with the alarming increases in teen suicide, just like recognizing that abortion should be condemned has led to CPCs.
The act of suicide is selfish and cowardly. That is what I said.
I never called anyone selfish or a coward.
Someone close to me has tried to end their life four times.
I do not condemn them. I extend love to them.
There is a difference!!
i was suicidal 13 years ago. I wanted to kill myself because I wanted to heap guilt on those that had hurt me. I wasn’t only tired of living. I wanted to punish others by killing myself. I don’t know if that makes sense but thats how I felt. One of those I wanted to punish was my mom. I was estranged from her at the time and I wanted to make her feel like the most horrible mother ever for hurting me. I wanted everyone to know she drove me to suicide and for her to feel the shame of that. It was a selfish mindset but I also was terribly hurt and wronged and alone.
Thank GOD He restored my life and He healed my relationship with my mom. Today she is one of my best friends. Death is so final and it leaves no room to mend relationships.
I think the saddest thing about this story is that the man killed himself IN FRONT of his wife ONE HOUR after she gave birth. If he wanted to kill himself why couldn’t he go off and do it? Why did he have to do it in front of his poor wife who had just labored to bring his baby into the world? THAT is what makes me think this man is wretched. Not that he wanted to end it all because I find that incredibly sad. But that he did it in front of his wife.
As long as we are living in a society that fails to acknowledge the inherent value of the human person, we will see stories such as this regularly. People like Andrea Yates, Scott Peterson, Casey Anderson, etc. will continue to do things like this, and we will continue to wonder, “How could anyone do that?” while simultaneously we condone assisted suicide, abortion, and hospitals starving human beings to death (see: Terri Schiavo). How can this man end his life when his wife and newborn were yet in the hospital? Because the market value of his life had been lessened. This story, and others like it, give us insight into the fruits of our culture of death.
As regards the validity of the option of committing suicide: Suicide as an act is a flight from this life. Running from life, rather than facing it and seeking help, is naturally cowardly, particularly when your family is relying upon your strength (and a new mother leans upon the new father-with each new child). It is contradictory to our nature as human beings, bearers of the light of Christ. It is a desecration of our bodies and souls, to take our own lives. It is wrong. It is not a valid choice, because it is a choice which denies our value as persons, to ourselves, to others, and to God.
Lord, please watch over the family of this man, his wife and baby as well as any other friends and relatives left here. Please bring them peace in Your Spirit and Your Will. We pray for their safety and wellbeing. We also lift our prayers for the repose of the soul of the man himself. Amen.
“THAT is what makes me think this man is wretched. Not that he wanted to end it all because I find that incredibly sad. But that he did it in front of his wife. ”
That’s why I think he was sick, like genuinely ill. Blowing your brains out in front of your wife an hour after your child is born is really, obviously abnormal behavior even for a suicide and I don’t think you can be sane and do such things.
When a person with depression loses hope sometimes they see no other way out. Its not as if anyone really wants to die. I will give you an example ….A woman I know had a young daughter who died of a drug overdose. This woman sleeps with the help of Somas all day for days on end. She really doesn’t want to live anymore so imo she is slowly killing herself. How can anyone know the depths of her despair? Also she can’t listen to that song I’m here without you baby but you’re still on my lonely mind…without losing it. Her daughter has been dead a few years. Doesn’t sound like she’s snapping out of it.
Not everyones brain is wired the same. Some people are blessed with the support of family or good friends. People who kill themselves have just had it with life and we will never know their last thought. Some people rebound from tragic events and some never ever recover. Losing your will to live is frightening ….I’m currently living the nightmare.
There is a true disorder called cardiomyopathy aka broken heart syndrome …That’s why spouses die close together sometimes. I’m not pro suicide but if you have never been suicidal in your life thank God…because people mean well by telling you life is great and you can move on. That’s not always true of mentally anguished people. Sometimes when you are so deep in despair it seems like your only solution.
Heather I’m sorry you’re still struggling so much. I think of you often.
I doubt anyone wakes up and says ..I think I will kill myself today. Its generally unresolved despair and mental disturbances that last months or years before a person finally snaps and ends it. Misery takes a toll. This is a tragic story but we don’t know why he did this. Maybe it wasn’t his baby. The article is vague.
Thanks Jack…yeah kinda turned zombie like
And also I’m not condoning the man killing himself in front of his wife but he must have been in a mindset where he wasn’t thinking clearly.
Yeah… when people do things like set themselves on fire in public, jump off buildings midday in a busy part of town, and shoot themselves in front of their wives who have just given birth I tend to think that they are not in a rational state of mind and unable to think clearly.
I always thought zombie-like feels better than crushing and constant pain.
Well Jack I have suffered from depression most of my life. My life could indeed end with suicide but I know it would be so final. Just like the football player who killed his girlfriend and then himself. You really have to lose it to do that and a suicidal person generally knows I will just drop dead wherever because nothing matters to them anymore. Suicide is a final act of unimaginable serious pain.
Yeah I hear you, I’ve had nearly unmanageable depression for as long as I can remember along with other issues. The medications I am on now are okay, it numbs things enough to function somewhat. It just sucks though, I don’t think people who haven’t suffered from severe depression get it. If you can’t remember a time you’ve just felt “okay” and all you can see for the rest of your life is boredom, pain, unhappiness and drudgery, it’s not all that surprising people want to end it. The thing that I remember is that kids don’t really get over losing a parent, so I’m stuck living whether I ever enjoy anything out of life or not. Don’t you have a three-year-old? Does it help to think of him?
Jack…no it doesn’t help. Just like the woman I mentioned in my post above …we all say Peggy is in her Soma coma. She has other kids but she misses her dead daughter so much her focus is gone. You can’t replace someone else’s life with a lost one. The woman wants to die.
The woman just wants to sleep. She’s had zero happiness since her daughter died.
:/ I hope you find something solid to hang onto soon that works for you, it helps ground you a bit when all you can think about is how easy it would be for this to be over.
I feel awful for your friend. I sincerely doubt I’d be able to have any semblance of a life if I lost one of the kids.
This is a great example of a man who should not have been a parent. Birth control and proper mental health treatment could have saved host life
Tenn, kids aren’t at fault for their parents mental health problems (I hate, hate, hate, hate it when people imply these things). You don’t know if they planned this baby or not, and his illness just unfortunately got the best of him later. You have no idea what was going through his mind. Just an ignorant, terrible comment overall.
Oh, and the mother may (and probably does) absolutely love her child. Unfortunately he’s gone and can’t love his child too, but that baby has a living parent and may go on to lead a good life.
Prayers and thoughts go out to all of you here who struggle with depression. I have a hard time reading about the pain you are going through. I have family members who struggle with depression and it hurts to see those I love suffer. My brother drinks too much and just went through a break-up and is having a hard time so if any prayer warriors here could add him to their list that would be great.
Working in the bar business for years, I knew of six men that took their lives (The suicide rate among alcoholics is 58 times worse than the general public). The stories surrounding these men were ones of wanting to hurt a woman who had recently left them. One did it in front of his ex and another did it in front of his preteen daughter. I knew a teen boy who shot himself after his mom threatened to send him away for stealing her jewelry (he had just gotten out of juvenile center for drugs, etc.) and I think he was trying to punish her. I know of four women who have attempted suicide and one who succeeded. Three of the four were in abusive relationships and one is an alcoholic/drug addict.
I was diagnosed with depression towards the end of my first marriage. The counselor referred to it as situational depression and she thought that if my situation improved, I would feel better. It did improve after I distanced myself from my abusive ex and his family. In spite of all the garbage I went through, I never considered suicide and I can’t imagine how far down one must be to go there. I can feel pangs of depression if I let my mind go back to certain times/incidents but I have gotten much better at focusing on the present and praying when my mind wanders. My ex and his family have a lot of problems with depression and mental health disorders. There is also a lot of abuse in his family. I have wondered if the abuse causes the depression/mental health issues or vice-versa. Maybe a combination of the two in addition to chemical imbalances.
I have lost grandparents and a close cousin. I have been fortunate and still have my parents and siblings and close friends. I tell my kids and husband that I will have to go before them because I cannot imagine life without them but I know this is all in God’s hands. My faith in Christ has helped me get through some rough times — many of them my own doing. In hindsight I wonder, how was I not suicidal after THAT happened to me or THAT or after I did THAT? I really think it is because I have looked towards Christ since I was a child to Save Me, begging him at times on my knees.
I have also heard that some suicides may be a result of evil spirits. I do believe this in some cases. People make poor choices (sins) that leads to other poor choices and it just spirals bringing along dark forces. I have been searching for an article I had recently read on this topic but I can’t find it. It talked about a priest who did many exorcisms and said that he believes that about half the people in mental institutions are really dealing with spiritual issues and that society is medicating people that would really benefit from finding a church community/spiritual family.
We are all put here to help one another and please reach out to others, even the strangers on the hotlines when you feel like hurting yourself. Just like Carla is there to help post-abortive moms, there are loving and caring people at the suicide hotlines that understand what you are going through and will do whatever possible to help.
You are gifts to our world and are needed here . Like ninek’s teacher said, “I would miss you. It would break my heart..”
Peace.
I’ve met plenty of people who have never been suicidal so I consider them lucky. Prax summed it up well. Sometimes the thought of raising a 3 year old alone scares me to death. Being widowed is painful. My husband was my life. God knows what’s going to happen to me. Either he will restore my will to live or he won’t .
I have been asked to date but nobody’s ever going to be my Brad. I’m on medication for anxiety. Counselor didn’t help me. When Brad died so did a part of me. Then his 32 year old son died 3 months later. Its a bitter pill to swallow . One day at a time.
Either he will restore my will to live or he won’t .
After I finished typing my last post last night, I read a bit before falling asleep. I am reading a book entitled Come be my Light about Mother Theresa (who had conversations with Christ). This is the first thing I read:
“A few years before her death, she (Mother Theresa) would remind her followers: Jesus wants me to tell you again…how much is the love He has for each one of you – beyond all what you can imagine…Not only He loves you, even more-He longs for you. He misses you when you don’t come close. He thirsts for you. He loves you always, even when you don’t feel worthy….Do you believe it?…Why does Jesus say “I thirst”? What does it mean? something so hard to explain in words-…”I thirst” is something much deeper than just Jesus saying “I love you.” Until you know deep inside that Jesus thirsts for you-you can’t begin to know who He wants to be for you. Or who He wants you to be for Him.”
After I read this, I thought of this thread and those who have struggled with depression/suicidal thoughts and wondered if there was anything I could do to help you.
Heather, Our lives are precious gifts from Jesus so He could never not restore your will to live! His promises are Good. His Will can never be nor ever will be that you harm yourself in anyway or even think about harming yourself! He loves you more than you can imagine and has plans for your life. He THIRSTS for you and wants you to make Him your life.
Heather, I really don’t mean to pry and don’t want to step on toes but I am concerned about you. Are you talking with anyone about your feelings? Do you have a spiritual adviser or are you in a grief group? Do you have help with your little one? I don’t know what it is like to lose the will to live and can only imagine it is pure hell. I wish there was something I could do to help ease your pain.
Extra Hugs and Prayers sent your way; I’m begging the Big Guy to help you find some Joy this week. If you ever want to talk privately, please give Carla your email.
Hi Jack,
I am either not expressing myself well or you are totally missing my point. I am not blaming the birth of the baby for this man’s suicide. I don’t know that blame can be assigned in the case of mental illness anyway.
I very much believe that mental illness is a disease just like cancer or heart disease. I am the wife of a man who suffers from a diagnosed mental illness that we are lucky is able to be controlled with medication. My point was that these two adults, and particularly the one not suffering from mental illness, are obligated to take care of each other before they even consider bringing a new life into the picture. They should both be using birth control and making a huge effort not to conceive a child until they are sure that both of them can handle the stress a pregnancy brings to anybody’s life. For the record, I am not just referring to pregnancy but one of the many things that bring stress into life such as a new marriage, buying a house, a sudden move and on and on. This isn’t just for the luxury of the two adults but also for the life they choose to bring into the world.
Whether the child was planned or unplanned is neither here nor there. All I am saying is that this whole push toward not using birth control is one of the things that leads to these situations. Not directed at you, Jack, but the whole comparing this to Peterson and other cases where the mother was killed has nothing to do with a man killing himself. In this case, a man felt so much pain he felt the only way out was his own death. In Peterson and other similar cases the man felt the only way he could get on with his own life was to kill both a fully sentient, pain-feeling adult woman and fetus at whatever stage. Not the same thing at all.
If we want to talk about mental illness and the need for some people to not reproduce then I think the Andrea Yates case is a prime example. I think she was mentally ill and did not know right from wrong when she drowned her poor children. Her husband, on the other hand, continued to push her to reproduce even though doctors had told him that she shouldn’t have any more children and she was taking anti-psychotics that she could not continue to take while pregnant. He should have been a man and made sure that his mentally ill wife never became pregnant again but continued to press her to have children and made multiple children with her after her diagnosis of mental illness.
The bottom line for me, as a spouse of somebody who is mentally ill, we have an obligation to make sure not to put the pressure of a child onto him and our marriage.
Mentally ill people are capable of having children and being good parents. I’m sure you agree with this in many cases Tenn, but your comment comes across as “mentally ill people can’t parent” which is offensive to me as a single parent who struggles with mental illness.
You don’t know that he “should’t have been a parent”. You don’t know anything about him and his wife besides the sparse stuff that the media has given you. For all you know, he struggled with depression for years, got it under control enough to start a family, and received some news (maybe the baby wasn’t his, maybe his wife was leaving him, maybe he had inoperable cancer, the possibilities are literally endless). He may have had a psychotic break brought on by stress that had nothing to do with the child’s birth.
I disagree with “the push to not use birth control”, I think birth control is a fine tool if people want it. I just heartily object to nosy nellies thinking they know what was the problem with this man and in this family, and making sweeping judgments about things like this.
”All I am saying is that this whole push toward not using birth control is one of the things that leads to these situations. ”
Jill has guidelines about commenting, and this little nugget has really pushed my buttons. YOU are SICK for saying it. Maybe your spouse isn’t the only one ready for a diagnosis. How do you think it is for a woman or man who is already mentally ill to endure an abortion? Hmm? Because no birth control product is 100% effective. Plenty of women become pregnant while using birth control. I’m not pushing anyone not to use it if they want, but it leads to abortion because gosh, they TRIED not to conceive, didn’t they?
Guess what? Pro-lifers don’t drive people to suicide because we are working to stop the abortion of innocent human beings.. It is pro-CHOICERS that have turned life and death into a money making industry.
Maybe your spouse isn’t the only one ready for a diagnosis.
Hear! Hear!
ninek: “bm, then you must think the 9/11 terrorists are heroes, oh so brave?”
Brave villains. Not heroes. Morality and bravery are two separate things. I call the 9/11 hijackers many things, but “cowards” wouldn’t be one of them.
Carla: “so what is suicide to you?”
A tragic act borne of despair.
“I never called anyone selfish or a coward.”
I know. Just “the act.” I still disagree.
Tenn,
Little late to be saying this man should not have been a parent.
He already was when his wife and himself conceived.
And the “solution” to this is not birth control.
Good grief.
I will call the 9/11 terrorists cowards.
They were cowards.
How often do we hear of people committing suicide in their homes knowing, and intending, that they will be found dead by family members. My cousin committed an horrific suicide in his basement, slashed his neck with a scissors. He was found by his wife and children, as he knew he would be.
Who knows what inner demons, and I am speaking metaphorically, torment people and drive them to such desperation. Being loved and needed are not factors. There are no simplistic reasons or answers. Suicide can defy all rationale. So many times I have had to look at wasted lives and just wonder why. I have seen people resort to the most horrific methods you can imagine, including eating drano crystals. I have seen people attempt again and again until they are “successful”.
Who knows what torment this new father had been living with and how long. A terrible tragedy for all involved.
Stunning argument, Jasper. I’m sure bmmg is reconsidering his entire life because of your devastating wit.
Well, I see that Jasper continues to be his pleasant self.
Also, way to follow the commenting rules, Jasper.
An email to a moderator is always appreciated.
Thank you.
“An email to a moderator is always appreciated.
Thank you.”
I’ll try to remember this for future reference.
sorry about that Bmmg.
Carla, don’t tell Jill…
To Heather, Jack and others here who are now or have struggled with depression and suicidal thoughts please know I and others are praying for you. (even those of you who are not believers-I pray for your health and wellbeing) I am sorry for your loss Heather and wonder if you have a Griefshare support group in your area http://www.griefshare.org may have one listed. Take care of yourself.
Mental illness does not equate with a diminished capacity as many seem to think. We do not know what the man’s motivations were and thus I do agree with Hans. Specifically, we do not know whether there was underlying mental illness or perhaps other factors contributed to this cowardly act. Not all commit suicide because of depression. His action and the location he chose indicate premeditation. Some do it to “get back at” whomever they may have had discord with. I have seen many such cases. And, unfortunately, they do choose circumstances that may be of joy to the other person.
I profoundly disagree with “symphatizing” as I think that it does not accomplish anything other than feeling sorry for the afflicted. How about empathy? Empathy is an impetus to help as sympathy does not evoke the need to do so.
I empathize with depressed individuals. I was depressed for a time (not sure if I had depression, as I received no real treatment and am very well now), and a few people very close to me suffer from depression. However, it’s more than a little weird to me to think that depressed people cannot be considered to behave in cowardly ways. Only people who are not depressed commit cowardly acts.
Of course depressed people can commit cowardly acts, that’s not what people saying. Some of us disagree with characterizing suicide as a cowardly act. I think people are putting a value judgement on “brave vs cowardly” that isn’t there. For example, it’s certainly brave, in a sense, to go base-jumping off the Empire State Building, but I don’t think anyone would call that particularly positive (certainly not heroic). Humans, like most other living beings, have a visceral fear of death. To overcome that to commit suicide isn’t cowardly. It’s tragic, awful, and it may be selfish, but cowardly is inaccurate in most cases in my opinion.
Plus I have the same issue with how people talk about suicide that I have with how people talk about drug addiction. It’s not helpful, the rhetoric surrounding things like that, in my opinion.
I agree Jack…most people are afraid of the unknown …DEATH is so permanent and to actually jump off of a bridge or put a gun to your head takes some guts. My thoughts of suicide are not to get even with anyone. Id take a few bottles of pills and just die. Why? My husband’s dead and some days even breathing hurts. I went to a site for widows and I am not at all alone in my thinking. Pretty much the majority say they would rather be dead just to be with their spouses.
I spoke to an older widow who had been married for over 50 years. She told me her nightly prayer is to die and it has been for the last 5 years.
Not all of us are going to jump or pull the trigger but many of us live with a death wish. The last time I was around a happy married couple I wanted to cry vomit run…it was too much.
My husband turned to drugs and no he shouldn’t have ….I believe when his other son was killed in 2004 in a car wrecks he had a death wish. He tried to be happy but always spoke of Steven and having to ID his mangled body at the morgue. He wept often. I believe he had a death wish.
Its complex……as far as talking about 9/11 those nuts did what they did to serve their God …..they murdered people and I’m sure they were not depressed.
I see two lines of argumentation against suicide being considered a cowardly act. It’s not cowardly because it entails overcoming one’s fear of death. And it’s not cowardly – it’s just desparate on the part of depressed individuals.
Heather ~ My dad went to heaven 3 years ago. My mom is now a widow, far too young. I still truly can not believe it most days. A couple things that seem to help put things in perspective for us: Love the Gift, but love the Giver more. And try to focus on the ways God continues to bless you through your husband, despite his absence. Praying for you.
Heather, it seriously hurts my heart to see how much you’re still hurting. I really wish there was something I could say to make it feel better, but I know that words don’t mean much when you’re hurting. I’ve been sad over my dad dying lately, which I don’t have a right to be but it doesn’t change my feelings, and I can’t imagine losing someone who meant to me what your husband means to you.
I just wanted to let you know I have faith in you, I know it doesn’t mean anything coming from some internet stranger but I do think you’re an amazing person and you can make it. I really hope that you can find something that makes it worthwhile for you to keep holding on, besides just the fear of the unknown. Something that makes you feel at peace or even happy. I really wish I could help.
Thanks Jack. Yeah I’m just taking it one day at a time. I have days where I accept Brads death but the stress of life $ and other issues bother me. I had a bad suicidal ideation last week and told myself to just get it over with. I thought about taking a drug overdose. I’ve recently completed my living will. At 43 no measures are to be taken to save me. No life support CPR tube feeding ….nothing at all. I did take my dads death in 96 okay because it was expected. I don’t know why this is different. I don’t want sympathy or pity. I just want the pain to end. Depression ….my old buddy is back. Ty all for your prayers. The only place you and I differ Jack is my faith in God. I believe in hell and the thought of being there for eternity scares me. I don’t feel that bad today but sometimes that can change in an hour. I try to hang on to moments of peace because they generally don’t last long. Nothing more to say.
Lord,
Please surround Heather with you love and peace and comfort. Allow her to know deep in her soul that You are watching over her and loving her through her grief. Impress deep into her heart that she is not alone. That she is loved and cherished and valued. That she is Yours, Lord.
Please draw Heather to You today. Heal her heart. Walk her through every moment. Day by day renew her strength. Give her joy in the memories of her beloved husband.
The Lord is close to the broken hearted and saves those that are crushed in spirit.
Psalm 34:18
I love you Heather. I am here for you sweet girl.
If you truly believe that all life is precious and all human beings have a right to life endowed by their Creator then suicide can be nothing less than murder.
Just as abortion ends the life of an innocent human being so does suicide.
Just as we do not use ANY excuses to justify abortion, we cannot use ANY to justify suicide.
If you truly believe that God formed every single one of us in our mother’s wombs, you are fearfully and wonderfully made and that He is the author of life then suicide is the ending of that very precious life.
Your own. By your own hand.
You cannot say on one hand that all life has meaning and is precious and all humans are wanted and then on the other say that suicide is somehow acceptable based on circumstances. You wouldn’t let me get away with saying that about abortion minded women. NO WAY! (she is poor, she is tired, she has a headache, she is all alone, she is young, she has a medical condition)It may explain why she wants an abortion but will never JUSTIFY it.
Satan is on this earth. It is his voice you hear when you are suicidal.(just do it, nobody cares, that will show them, I don’t want to be here, I want to die) He came to KILL and DESTROY everyone made in the image of God. He howls with glee over every single abortion. Just as he howls with glee when someone blows their own brains out, hangs themselves or overdoses. (no matter their diagnosis or life circumstance or if they are elderly and pay someone to assist them)
Suicide and abortion are murder. Ending the lives of those made in the image of God.
And still nobody answers me.
If suicide is not cowardly what is it?
It is an act of murder(sometimes premeditated) by one’s own hand regardless of how one FEELS.
PS
This last week was Suicide Prevention Week.
13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14 I praise youbecause I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. 15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven togetherin the depths of the earth, 16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
Psalm 139:13-16
Ty Carla I do love you too.
Also ty all for the prayers. I believe the enemy is hard at work because Jesus knows my heart. I am not evil. I am troubled. I hope he will turn it around and maybe a good man will come into my life again. Lift these suicidal thoughts from me and I do believe in tormenting demons.
And still nobody answers me.
Suicide is cowardly. And very controlling. It is not brave in any way. Suicide bombers are not brave villains. They may be dare-devils and mentally ill, but they are certainly not brave. They are weak and self-centered. They are brain-washed individuals who have turned away from their Creator.
The brave love their enemies and try to create a dialogue with them. It does not take courage to kill yourself or another person. It takes courage to fight through the pain and reach out for help. It takes courage to refuse to listen to and stand up against someone or a group who wants you to bomb or kill others. It takes courage to hope for a better tomorrow. It takes courage to love oneself enough to search out how much Jesus loves we humans.
It takes courage to take everything evil the world throws at you and still refuse to kill those who plan to kill you or to kill yourself. It takes courage to love those that plan your death on a cross so that those that hate you may live.
Our lives are gifts from God and we have no right to destroy His gifts.
Heather, if you don’t have a spiritual director, I hope you search one out to bless you.
“And still nobody answers me.”
Both I and bmmg answered you w/our thoughts.
“still refuse to kill those who plan to kill you ”
This doesn’t make sense to me considering the arguments we’ve had about self-defense.
Heather
You are grieving. It is a process. It takes time.
Resist the devil and his lies. You are God’s. You belong to Him.
I find many comments here troubling.
As I’ve said before, suicide is a complex issue with no simple answers or reasons. My cousin was a man who had the world, so why did he mangle his neck with a scissors? Why does someone put a gun in their mouth and pull a trigger?
If only we had the answers.
Can we really understand what torment another human being is going through? What is driving them?
As I’ve said before, suicide is a complex issue with no simple answers or reasons.
We can look at the issues, stories and stats surrounding suicide. I mentioned the correlation with alcoholism. Others have mentioned the control issues of wanting to hurt someone else. Heather has mentioned broken hearts. There is a link to abortion.
I personally believe there are always signs and always reasons but agree that suicide is complex.
“I believe in hell and the thought of being there for eternity scares me.”
See, I am weird because I do find the thought of God unbelievable, but the thought of hell is terrifying to me. Whether I believe it or not the thought of being punished and tormented forever is almost enough to make me have a panic attack just thinking about it. Probably because my church as a kid was very “fire and brimstone” and not about a loving God, and they believed that some people were destined for hell whatever they do, and I thought I was one of the people that were destined.
But the thought of hell isn’t what really deters me from committing suicide. The thought that my kids would be stuck with their mother as a full-time parent does. My kids deserve a parent who put their interests before their own and she doesn’t. I used to plan on committing suicide as soon as my children moved out of my house and I was certain they’d be financially okay, I had it all planned out. But then I realized that most people still depend on their parents for support and love even when they are adults (it took me a long time to realize this, I didn’t realize it wasn’t normal to be as alone in the world as I am), so I couldn’t do that either. So even though I don’t get any joy out of life, and every day is just bleak and painful, I don’t really have the option of ending it as much as I fantasize about being free of this world (as long as I take my medication, when I don’t take my meds I start planning suicide again, so I make sure I can always get them even if I don’t have much money that month).
So I guess what I’m saying is that even if happiness is out of reach right now (you are still grieving, of course you’re going to have trouble being happy for a long time), you have to find a reason that you can’t die. You have to find something that prevents you from allowing yourself to think that dying is your only option, no matter what it is, and focus on that to the exclusion of the other thoughts. Are you on anti-depressants, seeing a therapist, etc? I know you were several months ago but you said that your sessions were almost over.
I’m just really worried about you and I really wish I could find something for you to focus on when you get really badly suicidal. Remember you can email me (ask Carla for your email) if you need to at any time, I don’t really know what to say but I can listen to you if you need an ear.
Prax,
People cope with the issues you mention every day, and do not resort to suicide. Others do. Some people will resort to the most horrific methods you can imagine to kill themselves, which to me screams self loathing and punishment.
Yes I believe there’s always a reason, but it is often beyond any of our abilities to understand. We may “know” the person committed suicide over a lost job or to “manipulate” someone, what we may not know is that this person has battled thoughts of suicide or mental illness for years. How is it some people can cope with the worst life can throw at someone with no thoughts of suicide, and someone else can’t cope with an every day disappointment?
Manipulation? How well I know. Just enough pills to scare someone or play mind games. These people were often unpleasantly surprised to discover they could and would be forcibly treated, which meant restraints and a nose tube if they refused to take ipecac to induce vomiting. Then it was a 48 hour involuntary commitment at the local county mental health hospital. “But I’m fine, really, I was just upset”. Sorry, its out of our hands.
There’s also finding out you’ve blown out your liver and just knocked 20 years off your life. Your best hope is a transplant, though I understand from people working in the area that attempted suicides are not considered.
Not the ending they quite had in mind.
” There’s also finding out you’ve blown out your liver and just knocked 20 years off your life. Your best hope is a transplant, though I understand from people working in the area that attempted suicides are not considered. ”
That’s seriously really sad. Dying of liver disease and failure is a horrible way to go. That’s how my dad died, I saw him before he passed and I barely recognized him. He weighed less than I do (he’s four inches taller than me and has always weighed about forty to fifty pounds more), he was pretty much skeletal except his belly and feet were all swollen. His skin was all yellow and apparently he had constant, painful nausea and vomiting for months before he died. It was really sad and I felt awful for him. He said that he just wanted to die but he wanted to see me before he did, he died two days after I finally went and visited him. I really should have gone before.
I can’t imagine being desperate and unhappy enough to to try and end your life, but be left alive with something like liver disease and failure. That’s just heart-breaking.
Carla: “And still nobody answers me.
If suicide is not cowardly what is it?”
I have issued my answer: it is an act of despair. Also, I haven’t really seen anyone on this thread trying to “justify” suicide, or to encourage it. When people are contemplating suicide — and that’s more of us than some may realize — it’s our duty to help them to live. I strongly suspect that the “coward” business is a way that some people are trying to discourage suicide, and I agree with that end if not the means.
People are often afraid to walk across a rickety bridge, or to climb mountains, or, for some, even to fly in a jet, because of the various levels of potential for injury or death. Those who are suicidal are somehow able to put their fear of death and/or self-destruction aside, just as heroes do when they put themselves into harm’s way when they run into a burning building or to the most dangerous place of a battlefield in order to save others. Saying that the suicidal person is not cowardly does not mean that the hero who places himself/herself into a perilous situation (to rescue others) is cowardly just because (s)he doesn’t want to die.
Hi Jack,
I hear you. That’s how my father died too. I can still see his stick arms and swollen abdomen. His esophageal varices, varicose veins of the esophagus resulting from cirrhosis of the liver, ruptured. He was found dead.
Just the senselessness of the whole situation. The young woman took a tyelenol overdose, getting back at her boyfriend, not realizing how toxic acetaminophen is to the liver. The ER doc ordered blood tests and already there was evidence of major liver damage. At that time the toxicity of acetaminophen was news to me as well, so its hardly surprising that people outside the medical area wouldn’t know.
She had no intention of killing herself. Maybe she expected lover boy to swoop into the ER and declare his everlasting love. We saw these situations all the time. My guess is this young woman had no idea how toxic acetaminophen is, that tyelenol was just some harmless OTC drug.
A very terrible price to pay.
True Mary….you and I are both nurses. I have taken care of people who were left invalids due to failed attempts. We had a doctor a few years back who found himself in deep trouble after prescribing too many meds. The day before court he parked his car and jumped off of the valley view bridge. They have to pick up your remains with a shovel as it is 750 feet. He landed right in front of my girlfriends ex as their is a truck stop below . He knew his license would be revoked and he was on his way to prison.
” I hear you. That’s how my father died too. I can still see his stick arms and swollen abdomen. His esophageal varices, varicose veins of the esophagus resulting from cirrhosis of the liver, ruptured. He was found dead.”
Yeah… alcohol really messes with your body, it’s sad. My dad wasn’t a nice man but no one deserves to suffer like that (and it’s not like I didn’t have a lot of responsibility for how bad our relationship was). I just wish that our society didn’t gloss over the danger of heavy drinking, it seems like people just see alcohol as something fun to do and don’t understand it’s really a poison. The same with OTC drugs, people think stuff like Tylenol and ibuprofen as safe just because you don’t need a prescription. Nope they need to be used with caution, I wish more people researched this stuff before making a rash decision or overusing medications and drugs.
He couldn’t handle never being able to work as a doctor again as well as losing everything and going to prison. I can understand. The sad part is I knew people who were his former patients and said he was a wonderful doctor.
And I believe we are all familiar with the gay teen whose roommate taped him making out with a guy. It was too humiliating for him and he jumped off the George Washington bridge.
Hi Heather,
The sister of my co worker attempted suicide with a massive overdose and only left herself a brain damaged invalid. My co worker paid to have her sister transported to the county hospital nursing home in our city so she could be near her. I saw her when she came to our hospital for a medical issue. A woman who otherwise was perfectly healthy, she should have been living an active normal life instead of wasting her life away.
Ironically my co worker, long since retired, is now in a nursing home with total dementia. She’s been going downhill for years. Doesn’t even know her children. She was a woman who lived life to the fullest and was always mentally and physically active. Life takes very tragic turns.
Mary that’s a terrible story. I don’t understand life sometimes ……i must correct my post the valley view bridge is not 750 its 212 feet but its all concrete underneath.
So if this guy (original story post), after his baby was born, would have gotten into a car and driven to Vegas, where he lived out the remainder of his life, would you all agree he was cowardly for deserting his wife and child?
Hi Lifejoy,
I see your point. Again, we don’t know anything about this man’s mental health history. In fact we don’t know much about him at all. What demons drove my cousin to mangle his neck with a scissors? I wish I had answers. I’m amazed at his mother. Her son commits suicide then a few months later her second and last surviving son dies of natural causes. He had been sick a long time. How does someone keep going? Yet she does and she is well into her 80’s.
Would I consider it cowardly and lowly of him to take off on his family? Yes. But taking one’s own life is a whole different story.
I don’t think everyone who abandons their family is cowardly. Some are, sure. Others are just selfish and what their lives the way it is and don’t feel like caring for a child. Still others have mental issues that make them incapable. Several of the severely mentally ill transients I knew when I was homeless had wives and children before they ended up where I met them. They had stuff like schizophrenia or other disorders. I guess whether I would consider it cowardly or not depends on the situation. My ex doesn’t see the kids as often as she should, she didn’t abandon them but she skips or switches her days a lot. I think she’s rather self-centered but I don’t think she’s a coward. It’s not like she’s scared of caring for them, she just doesn’t feel like it a lot of times.
But like Mary said, leaving your family is a whole different thing than committing suicide. Wanting to be free of your children to go party is a lot different from making sure you’ll never experience this earth again.
This is a wee bit of Christian theology that I hope will address this thread’s many issues. According to St. John (evangelist), at the Last Supper and when the apostles spoke with the Risen Lord, He(Jesus) used what must have been some mighty-strange wording. ‘love one another, as i have loved you’;’my Father and I are One”; He repeats over and over that we are called to be one IN Him.
Lets meditate a bit on this: a fact that Reality says is absolutely true a pregnant Mother is one … but this is not an alone one …. a baby/her-baby is IN her. It seems more-than-weird that the experience of God as a being of onness and indwelling are sensed by all pregnant human women. Abortion IS A FORM OF SUICIDE by killing ‘the other’ of the ‘one-ness’. It is a cowardly suicide, because when ‘the other’ dies – hope, joy die too, because in all love …MY joy, MY hope are always IN ‘the other’. So Reality’s so-called help for pregnant women is akin to being a cheerleader for suicide … JUMP, JUMP!!!
Heather is absolutely beautiful at articulating some of the heaviest burdens of depression. Isolation and loneliness, seem insurmountable. They aren’t (personal experience)! They CAN BECOME JOY- filled and LIBERATING. Loneliness leads eventually to a craving for aloness – ‘all-one-ness’!
Strangely it is the same words ‘ONE& iN’ that yield your relief as well as the angst of our world. It is very important that you NOT believe me! Blame this whole mess on God, He made it happen! Bug Him until He relents and let’s you know … . Your hubby died and now lives IN heaven (a euphanism for ‘Living IN God’). Since you also Live IN God, your hubby lives in you. Can’t see him, betcha can’t see God either. But your faith knows the intimacy of your love lives IN your heart. {Was he a joker? Go ahead, in a secret place: tell him a joke and laugh IN him.] Now do the same with God … tell Him a joke and listen, because He has some good ones too!
Thank you so much John. Yes he was so funny. How did you know ?? That’s what made me so happy to be with him. He was funny! He was fun to be with until drugs ruined him. Drugs destroyed him our son and me. The funeral director told me ( also a widow ) Honey look at it this way…..it was just his time.
“It’s some of the happiest and most overwhelming moments of her life. And then this. He took that joy away from her.
“In many ways, that just seems so cruel.”
Late to the thread, but wow…
What an insensitive piece. The last quote is all about killing the mother’s buzz. Obviously this man was mentally ill and utterly distraught. No details given about his true mental state, just that he ruined mom’s big day. How ugly of Sasha.
A man is dead, a baby fatherless, a woman without a partner. But is was so cruel to the mother…
I’ve seen far too much suicide. It calls for deeper reflection and action than Sasha’s shallow reflections here. Prayers being offered for all three…
Thank you Gerard,
You sum that up very well.
Suicide is entirely too complex, and the human mind so far beyond our comprehension, that we can’t look to simplistic reasoning as to why people will take their own lives.
Right….look at talented people in Hollywood who have $ fame…..whatever they need but look at the lead singer from Nirvana. I was reading he had chronic stomach pain and resorted to heroin. He blew his brains out. Don Cornelius from Soul Train killed himself after becoming ill. We could look at someone’s situation ….like a cheating girlfriend and simply say find another but to a mentally ill person its the breaking point for whatever reason. I know a man who began dating 4 months after his wife died from lung cancer. Good for him but I can’t stand the thought of dating at this point in time.
Hi Mary,
Did you find my comments troubling? Just curious.
The factors and life experiences that lead someone to despondency and despair may be complex. The thoughts one has about death and dying and a life not worth living may be complex. The suicidal thoughts and ideations may be complex.
I agree with that.
But the act of suicide itself? Death.
I am still wondering if any of you are justifying suicide. I mean we could list diagnosis until the cows come home, medications that cause suicidal thoughts, story after story after story of those we know…….and the one common denominator? Schizophrenia does not justify suicide. Bipolar does not justify suicide. Depression does not justify suicide. It may EXPLAIN what might lead someone but not justify it.
Oh he was schizophrenic. He was diagnosed as mentally ill. It still does not justify the taking of a precious human being by their own hand.
Before suicide there is a loss of hope. A despondency, a despair, an isolation that IF not addressed may lead one to consider ending their lives.
Death. Death by owns own hand. In whatever manner they chose.
And God heals and restores and rescues. He can and He will and He is the author of life. He can and will bring peace.
I write from experience.
Yes. This is a very depressing thread. Whatever the reasons, we should all keep our eyes on overcoming these self-centered thoughts.
After all, this is a pro-LIFE blog!
Hi Carla,
Not yours specifically, just comments in general.
I in no way justify suicide, I acknowledge that its something beyond my comprehension. Just as how some people can commit certain crimes is beyond my comprehension.
I support any and all programs to prevent suicide and have encouraged people who were depressed and/ or suicidal to seek immediate help. As I said, when I worked ER, any self harm or attempt on one’s life or safety meant immediate 48 commitment. But all too often I saw people get help, and then only make sure their next suicide attempt wouldn’t fail.
Believe me Carla, I have seen my share of senseless suicide deaths and self infliction of savagery on oneself that Jill would never permit me to write about on this blog. This only convinces me that the human mind is beyond comprehension. We just cannot understand what dark forces control people’s minds. You view it from a religious perspective and I respect that. Frankly, I just don’t know.
Gerard and others have brought up mental illness. So true. People can be tormented for years and all of us blissfully unaware as the person struggles day to day. Remember the movie “A Beautiful Mind”? The man was a mathematical genius but schizophrenic. The movie presented his life from his perspective. Even you the viewer can’t be certain what is real or hallucination. I can’t even imagine living his nightmare. Can I understand how this could drive someone to suicide? Yes. Do I admire this man’s fortitude and determination to live his life as best he could? Immensely.
As you say you write from experience and it is indeed a blessing to your family, the people you love, your friends, to all of us here, as well as to the mothers and babies you have helped save, that you chose to live.
Depressing for some; necessary for others. If Heather (or anyone else) needs this thread to vocalize her depression, then it’s serving a valuable purpose.
I am praying for you Heather, Jack and others that are struggling with depression. Take care of yourself and I hope you find the help you need. I know it may seem really hard right now but there is one who can heal your broken heart and ease your troubled mind.
Mary,
I always appreciate your thoughts and the vast experience you bring to this blog!!
Thank you.
Sorry didn’t mean to turn this into a suicide conversation ……just needing to vent and it helped. Idky I suffer from mental illness. Like Jack I control mine with meds. I didn’t have a bad childhood whatsoever so I can’t blame my lifelong battle with depression on them. I’m told it’s a chemical imbalance and I have to run with that. I found counseling ineffective for me. I’m hard headed and I found it annoying . I’m talking to this stranger lady for what? I like my shrink though . Good man!
Clarification….them…my parents. Actually talking it out with people here helped me get through another day. Very tired but not suicidal today. Ty all for listening and praying. Counseling generally doesn’t offer religious support with America being afraid to talk about God. That’s why I told the counselor “I’m sorry but I think we are both wasting our time.”
I’m glad talking helped and that you’re not feeling suicidal today, Heather. I hope you can find a counselor (maybe through your church?) who can help you with the spiritual stuff.
Hi bmmg39
You are so right. We support, love, and care for each other. That of course doesn’t mean we always agree or won’t chastise each other. This isn’t a mutual admiration blog.
If people need to discuss issues in their lives and it helps to do so here, I want them to. Sometimes many opinions, experiences, and the various knowledge we all bring to this blog can offer someone much needed help or guidance.
Hi Heather,
We are happy to give you all the love and support you need. You have nothing to apologize for.
I hope you will take Jack’s advise concerning a Christian based counselor. You can always google. Also, your clergyman(woman) may be able to give a referral.
Carla my friend,
You are entirely welcome. Thank you for the kind words.
Everyone,
I would recommend the movie “A Beautiful Mind” starring Russell Crowe. He does an incredible job. It gives insight into mental illness like nothing I have ever seen or read. You see his life through his eyes, and like him you don’t always know what is supposed to be real or an hallucination. Literally, the day to day struggle of this man just to function. And to think of the stigma these people are so often forced to endure in addition to the problems they already have!
Heather,
Please seek Biblical Counseling and not secular counseling.
You are right. A waste of time for believers.
Mary I’ve heard of the movie you’ve mentioned but I’ve never seen it. Seems like something worth watching. Yes for me marriage provided stability and structure. Once that ended you find yourself in a dark pit of anguish and darkness. Sometimes even a simple task such as getting gas in the car is difficult. Its not easy to explain to a person who is not ill. I never had suicidal thoughts while I was married because I did have some happiness. I’m kinda anti counseling as I don’t feel that a stranger can fix it. I guess its a personal choice . I’ve asked some people if counseling helped them and most said “not really ” so at this time I think I will just have to grieve.
Also it’s frustrating to not be able to tell the counselor I have suicidal ideations. They will pink slip you into the hospital and after 2 hospitalizations I don’t want to go again. All they do is dope you up more.
They will pink slip you into the hospital and after 2 hospitalizations I don’t want to go again. All they do is dope you up more.
This is something I never even thought of, Heather, and I totally get that you would be hesitant to discuss your feelings with everyone.
I agree with Carla that Biblical counseling is the way to go for believers. I took my teen to a secular counselor last year for depression. Another counselor walked out of her office wearing an Obama button! I bit my tongue but never took him back!
I also took my son in for a checkup with a doctor and she brought up Seasonal Affective Disorder and he did some light therapy and returned to his chipper self. Wisconsin winters get long and I even sat in front of the light a few times. I just looked up SAD and learned that some people are affected in the summer rather than the winter so it might be something readers here may be interested in learning more about.
Mary, I love Russell Crowe and am going to check out that movie!
Right Prax…My counselor wasn’t a bad lady but I sat and wondered if she had ever been depressed herself. If not then how could you possibly know what I’m feeling? She goes home to her husband at night. I used to zone out during my sessions and my mind would wander. It wasn’t for me. We have long winters here too. SADD is a true disorder. Unfortunately we’ve had a wet bleak summer this year.
I do not think that “A Beautiful Mind” can provide anyone with comparison to depression and suicidal ideation behavior. Schizophrenia is a totally different animal so to speak and only treated with medication. Depression conversely is workable with therapeutic intervention (cog/beh, reality or humanistic, group or individual) and psychotropics are the last resort. Sympathy (read feeling sorry) for the afflicted with depressive thoughts does not work but pushes them further into the abyss of helplessness and desperation.
Hi Thomaas R
I must differ. Schizophrenic patients are indeed at risk for suicide. Also schizophrenia can vary in severity and ability to treat. I am convinced that “A Beautiful Mind” gives insight into the world of mental illness from the perspective of a mentally ill man and can help us all better understand the dark forces that can control a mind, and yes drive people to suicide.
Whatever form mental illness takes, it may be treatable, it may not, and either way life may well be a daily struggle just to function. This isn’t feeling sorry for people, its respecting the fact that there is so much we do not comprehend…or control.
Hi Prax,
You won’t be disappointed. Russell Crow gives an incredible performance.
BTW, have you heard of little Jannie Schofield? She’s a child who was born schizophrenic. You can see her on youtube. Her parents are beyond amazing as they struggle every day with their severely ill daughter. Sadly, her little brother is now showing symptons of schizophrenia.
Her parents have formed a play group/support organization for mentally ill children and their families. I thought that given your profession, you may find this info helpful for some of your clients and their families.
Schizophrenia is never treatable but subject to remission. And, the control aspect is not ours but the afflicted individual’s to undertake. Sympathy does not provide the afflicted the tools to be in control of their altered state of mind. But I do agree with you Mary that the GAF is a much useful DSM tool.
Whether one is religious or not, finding the right therapist is crucial. I’ve heard some bad stories, like the man who was abused by his wife, confided in his therapist/counselor, and then suffered more when she betrayed confidentiality by revealing to the man’s wife what he had told her (in his presence). I’ve also seen people with naturally low libidos (and not unhappy about that) being treated like broken people by their counselors. If you’re having these suicidal ideations, and they’re not being treated seriously, perhaps it’s time for a switch.
” I’ve heard some bad stories, like the man who was abused by his wife, confided in his therapist/counselor, and then suffered more when she betrayed confidentiality by revealing to the man’s wife what he had told her (in his presence).”
Oh, that’s so awful. He should have sued the therapist, isn’t it illegal to break doctor-patient confidentiality except in a very few special cases? My wife would have tried to beat the tar out of me if my therapist had told her what I had told him about her. It’s dangerous to tell an abuser that the victim is reaching out for help.
I do not believe that one may be successful in finding the “right” therapist. Transference and counter-transference (from the therapist) will always be there.
The best route is to look for a therapis that fits one’s belief system. Example: If you are a problem solver don’t go to psychoanalyst. You would never have your problem solved beyond blaming your mother.
No, you definitely have to find the right therapist. Therapists are people, and no one gets along with everyone. People can be as professional as possible, but if they remind you of someone who abused you in the past or their personality grates on you the wrong way, or if they are just not competent, you’re probably not going to have very successful therapy.
As I stated, your transference and the therapist’s counter-transference are inescapable. There are no “right” therapists, only therapeutically-appropriate ones. Your example about the abused man speaks to that.
Thomas R,
Schizophrenia isn’t always subject to remission and even those in some type of remission may be struggling just to function. I have seen remarkable remissions. One young man I interviewed for surgery told me he was a schizophrenic who was very well controlled, but still had occasional hallucinations that could cause him problems.
Yes the afflicted individual must want to be treated, but there is no guarantee treatment will work or to what extent. I don’t argue that sympathy is a remedy, but rather understanding what daily struggles a mentally ill patient goes through and that thought processes and suicidal ideation may well be out of someone’s control.
BTW, the little girl I mention, Jannie Schofield, has already attempted suicide more than once and is only 10 years old. Despite therapy and heavy medication, it is still a daily struggle for both Jannie and her parents.
Where do I mention the GAF?
“Whatever form mental illness takes, it may be treatable, it may not, and either way life may well be a daily struggle just to function.” The bold print Mary, not much to make that connection (I read between the lines you know).
Praxedes: “…I love Russell Crowe and am going to check out that movie!”
You love him, really?
I think Crowe is a great actor. I don’t know anything about him as a man. Is he a cad? I used to “love” Cruise too until I learned of his personal life and now can’t get past that when I see him on the screen.
Thomas R 4:19PM
Say what?
Hi Prax,
There is no doubt that Crowe is an incredible actor and he does an outstanding job in “A Beautiful Mind”. Like all of us the man has his failings.
I hope you will see the movie.
Most would not even notice the subtle (but very real)difference between secular and religious views. [I very much agree with Jack, that choosing a therapist is very, very important because the meaning of transference can be distinctly different. A Christian may perceive correctly that transference is a necessary part of a Platonic-type love; a secular therapist may perceive that the ideation is an interesting intellectual twist on an old theme … either “Sybill’ or Crowe’s ‘A Beautiful Mind’.
The relationship with God is only/just a psychological ideation projection of the mind. Indeed all of Reality’s-universe is composed of such projection ie. God is Santa-like. The difference IMO acute/centers around chronic physical pain as an imagined realty.
Mary: I was hoping that you are familiar with the psychological tools of evaluation that are very helpful in the assessment of mental illness. One of them is the GAF (global assessment of functioning) that is complimentary to the DSM.
In other words, for you to claim that any client has “daily struggle just to function”you are better served to substantiate this claim and the GAF is very useful in that regard. If you know anything about Nash, on whom the Beautiful Mind was based – his functioning was somewhere in the 81-90 GAF scale. So still very high. Nash was fully aware of his surroundings and his condition and how it impacted his wife and kids. And also the film is not true to the actual hallucinations Nash experienced, as it portrayed him as visual/auditory but they were exclusively auditory. The movie also contained other invented narrative. Paranoid Schizophrenia is the “highest form” of this disorder (as oppose to say catatonic) and thus is subject to the highest level of functioning (both physical and cognitive).
I would recommend watching the PBS documentary ”A Brilliant Madness” that portrays the disorder and Nash’s experiences more accurately.
Got ya Praxedes. I just think the term “love” is overused, that’s why I asked.
Thanks for pointing to the PBS documentary, Thomas. I will watch that as well.
The term “love” is definitely overused and I should be more vigilant. My God and my husband have my heart and even Crowe couldn’t steal me away! I quit playing hard to get years ago. (:
Thomas R,
Oh please.
Try working the ER for years and seeing people commit unimaginable savagery on themselves, kill themselves after several attempts, and be committed time and again, and struggle with depression and suicidal ideation and you won’t need any freaking book. I also spent time training on psych wards.
Yes I know he was aware of his surroundings and how his illness impacted his family, that is brought out in the movie.
While Nash may not have suffered visual hallucinations, the movie nonetheless does a good job of presenting the perspective of those who struggle with mental illness.
I would also recommend “Born Schizophrenic”, the life of 10 y/o Jani Schofield who suffers visual, auditory, and tactile hallucinations and was displaying unusual symptoms, later diagnosed as schizophrenia, from infancy. She was thought to be a gifted child as she spoke early in infancy.
Mary my dear: I worked in the ER for years (actually well over a decade) doing psych evals on every case you described above and more. Some ended inpatient, some did not – the difference made possible by the DSM and GAF assessment. Actually over my career, come to think of it I sleep, eat and breath the DSM/GAF. Scary ain’t it!!!
Well Thomas my dear,
While you were doing your evaluations I was busy getting people committed again and again, hoping this time they’d be helped, trying to calm people in the throes of terrifying hallucinations,pumping stomachs, caring for mangled bodies that resulted from self mutilation and bungled suicide attempts, coding people who came in PNB from self inflicted gunshots, poisons, and OD’s and caring for patients in the ICU and surgery who required extensive repair and care post self mutilation and attempted suicide. For years I have also been the support of a dear friend suffering mental illness, numerous hospitalizations, and a walking pharmaceutical the psychiatric profession has failed miserably to help
Scary ain’t it?
You are not playing the “one up” game by any chance are you Mary? Just checking…
BTW Mary, the commitment can only take place after a thorough and exhaustive evaluation. Not all suicide attempts end up being committed and likewise not all other cases end up inpatient either. So I am not sure whether you followed protocol or was just as you say “busy getting these people committed.” Please clarify.
Not at all Thomas R,5:11am
You had your job to do, I had mine.
Thomas R 5:17am
Of course I followed protocol. I didn’t just admit patients where I saw fit. Any and every suicide attempt or self inflicted injury required mandatory 48 hour commitment at the county mental health hospital after medical clearance. Our hospital also had a pysch unit. No “exhaustive evaluations” were done, just the pscyhiatrist on call giving the order to admit. I’m sure he did his evaluation of the patient in the morning. Of course patients who had to be medically treated first were, and then were followed up with psychiatric consult.
Busy getting committed is my less than eloquent way of saying we were getting the patients the help they needed, often involving transfer to the county hospital or admission to our psych unit.
Mary, the help they needed can only be defined by the clients themselves and the criteria to have someone committed are very strict. You will never help anyone who does not want it.