Stanek weekend Q: Is regulating abortion clinics futile, counter-productive even?
Abolish Human Abortion has posted this graphic (click to enlarge):
AHA explains its position on clinic closures here. It lists several reasons, all of which I think are either incorrect or wrong-headed:
1. It’s wrong to brag about clinic closures:
We just don’t turn these happy occasions into triumphalist claims about the success of whatever the current legislative battle is….
2. It’s wrong to fundraise off of clinic closures:
We just don’t… use them in our fundraising pitches, or claim that if you send us $1000, we will close down the rest by the same means.
3. Certain reasons for closing clinics are wrong:
[W]hen pro-lifers shut down a clinic because it isn’t very clean (as opposed to shutting it down because it is a place where children are brutally sacrificed), the abortion industry simply improves that clinic. Or they open a better, more modern, more attractive clinic down the street…. But what they are not reporting is the fact that stat of the art killing centers that service much larger areas are opening up in the place of the grubby, small hellhole that was closed.
4. Regulating clinics has the opposite effect of making Planned Parenthood and the abortion industry stronger:
What we are seeing is the creation of a much more sophisticated, governmentally-funded, Planned Parenthood-monopolized abortion industry which is learning to meet all the criteria set for them by the pro-life movement, all the while still getting away with murder….
There are many reasons and causes behind a particular clinic’s being shut down, and some of the reasons for which a clinic is shut end up preserving the lifespan of the legality of abortion and make its practice more difficult to abolish in the future.
5. The abortion industry makes money off of these efforts:
The abortion industry has even learned to use the small victories of the pro-life movement in their own fundraisers. Letters and emails requesting “Help to save the right to abortion!” go out as often as the “Help us save the babies” letters that we all receive.
6. The wrong people get credit for closing clinics for the wrong reasons:
We actually think that all sorts of good work (by both pro-lifers and abolitionists) goes into the closing of abortion clinics and that it is not just the politicians and pro-life industry leaders who deserve credit for their closings. Indeed, we tend to believe that killing centers are most effectively shut down by the work of local anti-abortionists who dry up the financial stability of a “clinic” by making their abortion unthinkable and unnecessary (by way of assistance and agitation).
7. It all comes back to the virtue of “immediatism” vs “incrementalism”:
There is a difference in strategy here, and it is OK to be different (ie, we all hate abortion). We just happen to believe that the clinic-by-clinic or increment-by-increment strategy and focus doesn’t go to the heart of the matter, the root of the tree. That is, we just don’t believe that the pro-life movement’s strategy in this regard will ever lead to abolition.
Semantics aside, the number of abortion clinics has declined from a high of 2,042 in 1996 to 787 currently - by 61%. In particular, the past three years has seen a drastic reduction of 73. Per Bloomberg, pro-lifers are responsible for half of those closures, and implosions and decreased demand for the other half:
New laws are responsible for roughly half of the closures, while declining demand, industry consolidation, and crackdowns on unfit providers have also contributed to the drop.
I would add that several closures for the latter reasons are also due to pro-life diligence in alerting authorities to irregulaties and also dogging regulatory agencies to do something.
The number of abortions has declined,from a peak of 1.6 million annually in 1990 to 1.21 million in 2008. This was during a time when the U.S. population increased by 22%, from 249 million to 304 million. The rate of abortion has declined from 29.3 per every 1,000 in 1981 to 19.6 in 2008. While this is due to efforts by a whole lot of pro-life efforts in a whole lot of areas, disappearing abortion clinics from every street corner must logically account for something.
No pro-lifer is happy that even one baby is aborted, but the bottom line on this is AHA thinks attempts to regulate abortion clinics are wrong, and that if any focus is made on closing clinics, it should be at the clinic itself “by way of assistance and agitation.”
Do you agree or disagree?
Differences aside, I appreciate AHA’s willingness to let me post its graphic for the purposes of discussion. AHA has provided more links on the topic of immediatism vs incrementalism here, here, and here.
Please be sure to take the poll…
[HT: Leslie of The Passionate Pro-Lifer Turned Abolitionist]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
What ARE you doing AHA to abolish abortion?
Anyone who has followed AHA or given a fair look at their website, blog and Facebook page would know that there are abolitionists out there every day at clinics, high schools, on the street raising awareness about the evil of our age and seeking out mothers in need. That question “what do you do?” Is not an honest one. Take some time to find out. We don’t make it a secret. It’s all over our pages. We focus our efforts on many of the same things pro-lifers do, but we do not support efforts or lwgislation that abandons some to save others.
The lesser of two evils movement (Pro-Life movement) has saved some babies for sure but they are also responsible for the deaths of all the other babies. I think we would all agree that if everyone who called themselves Pro-Life stood up and did something to help end abortion it would be over. Taking this slow incremental approach has cost the lives of millions of babies. We at AHA are working to get everyone out of Church to become active, not send money, not support a gunslinger or a pro-life supper hero but to get active themselves. Abortion will always be around until the Church decides to stand up against it. These victories the Lesser of two evils celebrate are at the cost of millions of dead babies. Enough is Enough we need to take a biblical approach to all this legal child sacrifice.
Todd Bullis
I think that I understand what AHA is aiming for, but I don’t think you’ve hit your target.
Our GOAL is to protect the life and dignity of every human person, born and pre-born.
And just one of our STRATEGIES is to protest and pray at the industrial killing facilities.
This strategy is effective toward our goal:
– We raise awareness that clinics are nasty and unsafe.
– We raise awareness that abortionists are nasty and abusive to women.
– We raise awareness that women are hurt by abortion.
– We raise awareness that loving and charitable alternatives to abortion are available.
– And sometimes we see the clinic closed, due to unsafe conditions and/or lack of demand for abortion services.
But all of these are positive steps toward our primary goal: Helping the public to become aware of the child, and to stop thinking that killing the child is a suitable solution to any of life’s problems.
I see one problem with immediatism: We have to change our laws, but we also have to change our culture. Even with pro-life laws in place, there will still be many abortions and deaths as long as we remain a Culture of Death. And changing a culture is always an incremental process.
We need to see pro-life laws as another STRATEGY toward our GOAL of a pro-life culture. Our fight does not end with the restoration of life-affirming laws. We have to keep working, and harder, until abortion becomes as unthinkable as raping women and sexual abuse of children.
That meme is just not true. The overall number of clinics is down! Abortions have also been reduced by 400,000 a year from their heyday in the late 80’s early 90’s.
We’re not stopping just saving some. Our ultimate goal is save them ALL and abolish it once and for all. We’re chipping away at it bit by bit.
I am all for hearing another approach but AHA just likes to bash other pro-lifers and their hard work. They don’t actually come up with any SOLUTIONS themselves mind you.
They whine and moan and thump their Bibles over pro-life legislation yet they themselves have never had legislation drafted or passed.
I’m done with AHA. They are an organization/movement full of nasty, self-righteous people. I probably agree pretty close to them doctrinally yet I can’t stand to have anything to do with them because of their nasty spirit. They aren’t actually saving any lives themselves…just there to be a thorn in the side of pro-life people working hard for moms and their babies.
Incrementalism works. The LGBT lobby knows this. 40 years ago it would have been unthinkable to champion gay marriage yet here we are today. Homosexuality has been normalized in our culture and readily accepted and most people no longer have a problem with re-defining marriage. The gay lobby knew they could not change hearts overnight. Little by little by little they did so.
Same with gun control. If they came for our guns outright there’d be a war. But look how little by little by little they chip away at our second amendment rights. And I believe one day they will completely abolish the second amendment. We’ll be so far down that road it will be too late to do anything about it.
Incrementalism works. The good guys and the bad guys know it. The abortion lobby knows it. THats why they fight against our incremental legislation so hard. If it was ineffective they wouldn’t care would they?
Your examples from homosexuality and gun control don’t show incrimemtalism “working”, but show how compromise can overtake a culture. Allow a little over here, tolerate a little over there, and pretty soon the side of evil has overtaken us because we did not firmly stand for justice. It is this very compromise that has kept abortion legal for 40 yrs. The Pro-life Movement has succeeded in teaching the culture that it’s ok to kill a baby as long as it doesn’t have a heartbeat yet, or as long as it is before the third trimester, etc. This is what your legislation has taught the populace. The side of evil is never willing to compromise, so we need to stand firm and believe God when He told us not to go with the multitude to do evil.
So I am hearing a few things that are disturbing.
1) the GOAL is to create a pro-life culture? That is another difference there. AHA seeks to create faithful disciples of Jesus Christ, not pro-lifers.
2) we should use the world’s (culture of death) strategies to accomplish an end to abortion? Using LGBT and anti-gun strategies will not end abortion. God uses means but not worldly sinful strategies that compromise with death and godlessness. Listen to yourself.
Finally, Sydney your characterization of who AHA is is wrong. I know all of these people and they are some of the most loving, sacrificial and honest Christians I have met. They are my brothers and sisters and your characterization if them is what is hateful. Have you met them, eaten a meal with them or even taken the time to send a message to one of them? I seriously doubt it and you should repent of your hateful spirit against Christian brothers and sisters.
I cannot see how closing smaller , local killing mills can be seen as counter productive. Larger, more modern abortion centers would open anyway, as long as iota legal. If it delays, hinders, even one woman from killing her child, how can it be wrong? This one woman goes on to tell her story. It’s all good. Wars are rarely won cleanly. Inch by bloody inch. Steady progress, taking every victory and saved life as a blessing will win the day.
Abortion will never be abolished, as long as we continue to regulate it. There is a reason we do not negotiate with terrorists and a reason we cannot negotiate, especially by using some of our children, to supposedly save some of our other children.
Has any thought been given to the rates of chemical abortions that are not recorded?
Do we know if those are on the rise? Decrease? Do we know if the rates have increased in order to fill this supposed decreased amount of abortion over 20 years. Common sense might dictate that if a drug is pushed to over the counter status from prescription status that sales are likely pretty good.
They do it to themselves!
Dear Brian — I see you are a zealot. That is good; I like zealots. However, it is often necessary to urge zealots to slow down and focus.
1) Evangelization and winning disciples for Christ is always incremental…. one person at a time. So is winning people over to the pro-life culture.
2) There is nothing intrinsically evil about the incremental approach, even if the LBGTQWERTY have used that to achieve their ends. St. Paul also used the incremental approach, one community at a time. And thus Christianity spread into the pagan culture incrementally over the next 300 years, before Emperor Constantine finally ended persecution and made Catholicism legal. By that time, the infanticide had already stopped and a culture of life reigned.
I appreciate what AHA is trying to do here. It helps to keep us all focused on the goal.
But the pro-life movement should not be fighting amongst ourselves. Our strength is our multitude of strategies. The abortion industry cannot keep up with our lawsuits and legislation and prayer vigils and surveillance and undercover videos and bloggers and Care Centers and Marches and campus groups and the growing number of very young people who want to end abortion. We should not stop any of these. We should keep looking for new ways to change hearts!
I am not pro-life. I am an abolitionist.
I am aware that many object to the severity of my language; but is there not cause for severity? I will be as harsh as truth, and as uncompromising as justice. On this subject, I do not wish to think, or to speak, or write, with moderation. No! no! Tell a man whose house is on fire to give a moderate alarm; tell him to moderately rescue his wife from the hands of the ravisher; tell the mother to gradually extricate her babe from the fire into which it has fallen; — but urge me not to use moderation in a cause like the present. I am in earnest — I will not equivocate — I will not excuse — I will not retreat a single inch — AND I WILL BE HEARD. The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal, and to hasten the resurrection of the dead.–William Lloyd Garrison
And our strength is only found in the Gospel of The Lord Jesus Christ. Not in strategies.
Well put as always Sydney!
Brian, yes I know AHA folks. PRobably ONE was nice out of all of them. They are hateful. I stand by what I said. I’m not calling anyone out personally here but it is what is is. It is my opinion based on my interactions of them and yes, they are hateful.
I know missionaries who are also creating disciples of Jesus Christ but they don’t do it by bashing and arguing. If that is your focus, stay out of the pro-life movement. We are here to end abortion. If that is not your goal—if you are not interested in saving women and children but in proselytizing then do so..but stop bashing those of us who are out there week after week working to help these moms.
“My Christian brothers and sisters”? Are they? They don’t act like it towards me. I have a problem with anyone who says someone isn’t going to heaven because they belong to a different church. I know people who claim to be “born again” who do not have a clue about the gospel and do not act as if they have any relationship with Jesus Christ whatsoever. I know Catholics who do show the fruit of a relationship with Jesus Christ and do understand the gospel. I don’t agree with a lot of the doctrines of the Catholic church but for AHA to bash them and say they aren’t Christians…some may not be, but many are. It isn’t our denomination that saves us–it is Jesus Christ and there are a lot of “dead Christians” in the pews of ALL denominations yet AHA continually wants to bash Catholics.
I enjoy debating Catholic doctrine with my Catholic friends but there is a way to discuss our differences in a spirit of RESPECT and LOVE. You aren’t persuading anyone (by you I mean AHA) with your aggression.
AHA folks are your friends. You feel you must defend them. I totally get that. But I’m telling you as an outsider who has interacted with them how you appear to the rest of us. And I know I’m not the only pro-lifer who feels complete exasperation with AHA. Not because you guys disagree with our approaches but because of the WAY you disagree with our approaches.
Del,
This is not “fighting amongst ourselves” or division within the Pro Life Movement, the Pro Life movement seems very unified around compromising to support lesser evils and an incremental end to abortion over the next few decades. The Pro Life movement seems to be unified against abolition and all on the same team against AHA.
In relation to the survey question and topic above.
If Pro-lifers keep on focusing on legislation that closes down abortion clinics on account of their cleanliness or closeness to hospitals, we will be facing a situation where child sacrifice only takes place down the hall of the birthing unit in your local major hospital (where no sidewalk counselor, no activist is allowed to go).They will be giving pain killers to pre-born babies before they butcher them in order to comply with the regulatory schemes of the Pro Life movement and killing babies with your tax dollars.#Abolitionist#PAETTPLMA//?
Sydney M says:
I don’t agree with a lot of the doctrines of the Catholic church but for AHA to bash them and say they aren’t Christians…some may not be, but many are.
AHA has the time and cajones to say that ‘Catholics aren’t Christians’?!!? That on is always hilarious!
Do you like our Bible? Well, we’re glad and you’re welcome. We saved it for you, and we don’t mind you using it.
By the way…. Jesus founded the Catholic Church to know and guard His teachings and to spread them to the world. We also know and guard our Sacred Scripture, and we are happy to explain what it means for you.
That part where Jesus said “THIS IS MY BODY” on the night before He died — He meant that literally. You can’t be “biblical” about anything if you get this one part wrong.
I think Grant’s questions are extremely valid and worth considering. Abortion rates do not include chemical abortions or other over-the-counter drugs, such as Plan B, that may cause abortions. Stats showing an abortion decline may be actually be giving a false sense of victory.
This goes all the way back to the differences in strategy. Incremental approaches that regulate abortion do not touch on the heart issues involved. It is entirely possible they are actually deleterious by teaching the culture that abortion is moral within the bounds of those regulations. Instead, we ought to hold out a morally consistent position of complete and total abolition and work towards this by changing minds through the Gospel.
They’re freeping the poll. Just saying.
https://www.facebook.com/AbolishHumanAbortion/posts/611964908869527
Also, Plan B doesn’t affect the overall abortion rate. It’s also unlikely that it has a post-fertilization mechanism.
People who hate incrementalism and degrade Catholics would be hilarious if they were not so damaging to the movement overall. Incrementalism is a fine strategy, and Catholics formed the backbone of pro-life for ages.
Honestly I don’t understand why pro-lifers try to claim AHA. They are pretty upfront that they dont consider themselves part of the movement. They blame the rest of us for abortion being legal, and all they do is whine.
And people who don’t like incrementalism just don’t live in reality. Their whining isn’t changing anything. Law slowly restricting abortion while also trying to change hearts and minds will work. Sydney made a great point with the success of the LGBT movement. That’s really how society changes.
“Brian, yes I know AHA folks. PRobably ONE was nice out of all of them. They are hateful. I stand by what I said. I’m not calling anyone out personally here but it is what is is. It is my opinion based on my interactions of them and yes, they are hateful. ”
Right again. Not every AHA person is hateful, but overall they are an incredibly self-righteous, rude, and ineffective bunch. Try telling them you’re non-religious , it’s always a hoot. They’re “making disciples of Christ” by bring total jerks to anyone who doesn’t agree.
We all want an immediate end to abortion, but that is impossible. So Incrementalism is our only alternative…. and fortunately, it is will be effective at bringing about a permanent culture of life.
I do not believe that by tightening safety and regulations, we are teaching the culture to be more complacent about abortion. Quite the opposite, actually….
– We teach them that children are fully formed and viable at 20 weeks. They can feel pain, and should be protected.
– We teach them that children are surprisingly complete at 12 weeks and can feel pain, and deserve to be protected.
– We teach them that human life has everything it needs to grow and develop from the moment of conception, and deserves to be protected.
– We teach them that many forms of contraception actually kill a conceived and developing human embryo, and need to be avoided.
– We teach them that contraception leads to premature sexualization of teens, promiscuity, adultery, divorce, and most of the world’s unintended pregnancies — and a host of health dangers.
Eventually, we will restore a Christian culture of life. But not all at once.
Russell wrote, “If Pro-lifers keep on focusing on legislation that closes down abortion clinics on account of their cleanliness or closeness to hospitals, we will be facing a situation where child sacrifice only takes place down the hall of the birthing unit in your local major hospital (where no sidewalk counselor, no activist is allowed to go).”
AHA has speculated before, but there is zero evidence of that actually happening, unless you have stats I don’t. Hospitals outsourced abortion when it was legalized, and they won’t be taking it back – unless forced by the government. From what I can read the percentage of abortions committed in hospitals is only going down. 5% in 2005, 4% in 2008. Abortion is bad for PR and bad for staffing, and there are a number of hospitals that are Christian/Catholic.
Well…. this is more complicated than a simple supply-and-demand problem.
But…. one way to reduce the demand is to educate people on how lousy the supplier really is.
If we focus entirely on making abortion illegal, we fail on the side of helping women to reject abortion.
The abortion industry is already a government-subsidized pariah. Regulation exposes the disgusting behaviors of the abortionists and clinics. It is also a good step toward defunding. In the meantime, exposure reduces the ability of Obamacare to funnel more cash into the abortion industry.
If your house is on fire and your kids are trapped in their bedrooms don’t you want firefighters who say “We will put the fire out room by room…we will get your kids out of those rooms..the living room may burn while we do that but we’re going to save your kids.”
AHA would show up and say “If you can’t put the ENTIRE fire out now then don’t put the fire out at all! Yes, I realize those kids will die but you cannot put the fire out room by room! Put it all out at once or don’t put it out at all!”
Forgive me if that is a mischaracterization of their approach but thats what it seems to be when they explain it to me. So what if some clinics close and some babies are saved? Forget those babies!!! Forget those clinics! If you can’t overturn Roe like RIGHT NOW then fuhgeddaboudit.
I’m sorry…I will never agree with that approach.
The “whak a clinic” meme implies that when one closes, others open up. History does not bear that out. The number of mills now open is approximately 1/3 the number of those open in the 80s-90s. Moreover, our FOCUS is indeed on ending abortion. I heard some sniffing about “immoral anti-gun and pro-gay strategies”. Would an AHA follower here explain precisely how all their strategies are immoral? True they’re being used for immoral means but that doesn’t render the strategies themselves immoral. So please enlighten us all – if you can.
We protest a hospital….Metro. They have been killing babies for over 30 years.
However thankfully most hospitals have not jumped on the bandwagon. Cleveland Clinic bought most of the hospitals in my area.
“…not support a gunslinger or a pro-life supper hero but to get active themselves.”
Yum, a supper hero!
The Christian walk is about incrementalism as well. When we are born into God’s family we are a “new creation” the Bible tells us. Yet we still struggle with a sin nature. God takes us as we are and then little, by little, by little day by day He shows us areas we need to change to be more like Him.
If I was done growing as a Christian I wouldn’t need to read my Bible and pray and fellowship with God. I’m not done growing. I’m not done changing. Incrementalism.
St. Paul said we were newborns in Christ and we drank the milk of the Word but as we grew we began to desire meat. Incrementally we changed…little by little. Or St. Paul talked of the Christian walk as running a race–we keep striving, we keep running–mile by mile we complete the race. We don’t start at the beginning and take one huge leap and find ourselves at the finish line.
I don’t think there is anything unbiblical about incrementalism. I think it is a very valid approach. And while we pass incremental legislation we KEEP talking to people, trying to show the truth of the humanity of the unborn and we keep seeing God save moms and babies and we simultaneously try to overturn Roe. It isn’t an either/or approach.
Okay. i’m done. AHA just really gets to me–stop bashing pro-lifers and do something constructive!!! Like actually overturn Roe since you claim that is one of your objectives.
Wow. It’s obvious that no one commenting here on the side of incrementalism really understands immediatism or the incrementalism that AHA opposes. Y’all should really read the links provided by Jill. Jill did you read them?
I went to the AHA site.
I am naturally skeptical of any movement or organization that doesn’t seem to use Christ as a period, but instead, as just a stepping stone to their more ultimate cause. It reminds me of Joel Osteen – where Christ is the tool to be successful. Seems like borderline idolatry to me. I don’t know – just feels creepy.
If the gay/lesbian population is only 10% altogether, wouldn’t gay/lesbian marriages be more like 5% of the total, if that? Marriage is always going to be overwhelmingly a man/woman thing. If only the abortion numbers were that low!
Ex-GOP,
Can you elaborate a little more about why you felt Jesus is a stepping stone? I can say with certainty that the reality is the complete opposite of what you have said here. We are abolitionists because we follow Jesus, and we do not think there is any power to effect the abolition of abortion apart from the Gospel of Jesus. I am genuinely curious how you came to the conclusion you did. What part of the website? How much of it did you examine and in what detail?
PChem -
I just say that because as I flip around the site, it’s clear that the goal is abortion with Christ as a tool. Even on the page ‘The Gospel’ (which is the least built up part of the site)- the message is that abortion is evil – so people should become Christians and then fight abortion.
It seems like you’ve put Christ in a box. ”Here, open the box, put Him on, and then we’ve already got his calling for you figured out – and that calling is abortion abolition, which is our ultimate goal”.
It just doesn’t seem, from the 15 or so pages I’ve been on in your site that Christ is enough for your lives – that the message of the gospel doesn’t end with a period, it ends with a comma, and the goal of bringing people to Christ is to get them into your fight.
If it isn’t different than that, that’s great. I’m just not seeing it.
I had my fill of AHA on facebook. Felt wonderful to finally block their hatred.
Totally agree Sydney!! And well said!!
As a post abortive mom and prolife speaker I was told on facebook by Todd Bullis that I was part of the problem. Good thing that I do not value his opinion.
All I have seen from AHA is arguing. Just like on this thread.
Oooooooooh Ex GOP!
Agree.
I see what you did there Carla. Didn’t you start this thread with a question (loaded) to AHA? You expect us not to answer and when we do you say all we do is argue? Very disingenuous but not surprising since they said the same things to the slavery abolitionists and people who can’t engage the actual arguments (and admit they blocked us instead) have been saying it to us for over two years now.
Ex GOP- your assessment of the page is completely backwards sir. The Gospel is not merely a tool. Have you read our blog post on the great commission? Maybe you should try that one out if you haven’t. Abolition is not just about abortion. It is about vital biblical Christianity lived out daily and a following of the WHOLE Great Commission. http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com/2013/03/the-great-commission-without-abolition.html
Brian -
Thanks for the clarification – I’m simply saying that if that is what you believe, your page writers should be fired and you should start from scratch.
For a specific example – the whole write-up on the bio by Todd Bullis. His calling wasn’t to lead people to Christ – his calling wasn’t to visit that church and understand how God was using them in the greater context of what He is doing on this earth – it seems to me like Todd took a vision upon himself to judge this church, trump card any calling that church had been given, and throw judgment onto that church. Now, I personally can’t judge that church – I don’t know how they are being used by Christ in the greater context of the world – what part of the body they are playing. But it is clear that the mission wasn’t to lead those individuals closer to Him – it was for Todd to lead those individuals closer to him – his own vision.
I did read a bunch of yours pages -stopped by the blog – read through bios – the gospel page. If you took Christ out, you’d still have a site. If you took abortion out, you’d be left with nothing. It just really, really seemed like prosperity gospel stuff – Christ is the tool, not the end.
Ex-I just read through the Gospel section and there are possibly two sentences in it that allude to abortion. So…what is your real issue with AHA that you would misrepresent it so grossly? It is a straightforward and thorough Gospel presentation. My only guess now is that you have some sort of bias that is causing you to be so critical. There would be no abolitionist movement without Jesus and His sacrifice. We would all still be lost in our sins and living for ourselves. Your assessment of what we are doing is being biased in some way. I don’t know you so I don’t know what it is but I suggest you examine yourself and to ask God to reveal why you may be taking such a negative view of what God is doing through the abolitionist movement.
Brian –
You are making up things that I’ve said to try to jump out of this uncomfortable position you are in. I didn’t say that you didn’t talk about Christ at all on your page. I’m just saying that all throughout the site, and I used specific examples, that it appears that your ultimate goal is abortion focused, not Christ focused. Again, I’ve simply stated what I observed.
Even on the gospel page though – which is one page on your entire site, and the least built up component of the top sections – you don’t build off of the broken world and people needing a savior. You build off of murder is evil and we need to repent from that.
I found your response disappointing – I felt like I came in with examples, and the perception of the site, and you came firing back stating that my perception was all wrong and backed it up by twisting what I said.
It’s like coming home and your wife saying that she feels like you’ve been distant, and they you laid into her with the examples of how she’s probably got a hidden agenda.
Nice Brian.
This post and thinking perturbs me more and more as I think about it.
So you’ve got Carla who had an abortion, now places her life and trust in Christ, and feels that she has a calling to speak to others about her experience. She was called out by one of your leadership folks as being part of the problem.
So a direct question Brian – do you feel that your organization better understands Carla’s calling on her life than she does?
Question for the AHA people:
How do you overcome free will?
As far as I can tell, God cannot. IN Capernanum, when Jesus explicated the Real Presence, people turned away, saying “How can anyone believe this?”
Jesus let them walk away.
So, a few more questions:
When is your deadline for ending abortion?
If that deadline is not met, what are you going to do?
Because, if you are serious about ending abortion without changing the culture, then you must be talking about the use of force to achieve your goal.
One thing I can tell you, our ruling class is nowhere near consensus on abortion, and in fact are leaning pro-abort, and I would guess they are leaning in the Humanist direction, not toward Jesus.
In fact, if the Federal government keeps going the way it is, we will have less and less say in what goes on.
So again, what do you plan to do when your “immediate” goals are not realized?
I think it is a critical question for you.
As a pro-lifer, I will just keep on doing what I can.
Hi Brian,
I guess I am still wondering what does AHA bring to the table?
What new and inventive and abortion abolishing legislation are you putting forth? What successful tactic are you proposing?
Give me the BEST way to abolish abortion so I can consider it.
I can wait.
So far all I have ever read is that you aren’t the problem. WE ARE.
So there you go.
Very interesting weekend question. And one I don’t have an answer for. I do understand the repugnance of the idea of regulating evil. Perhaps it’s that same concept that prevents me from telling my children that if they’re going to sin by having premarital sex, at least add the sin of contraception too, to keep them “safe”. I’ll never tell my children that. But I’m not convinced that trying to trap the evil of abortion into a smaller and smaller box is sinful.
Anyway, I have no interest debating immediate vs incremental. Just wanted to add a couple quotes I heard this morning that made me think of this question and the conversation happening here in the comments:
“You too must be patient. Make your hearts firm, because the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not complain, brothers, about one another, that you may not be judged.” James 5:8-9
“We are called upon not to be successful, but to be faithful.” Mother Teresa
Ex
I will quote you so you don’t think I am twisting your words (or you still will because you are trying to twist them yourself)
“Even on the page ‘The Gospel’ (which is the least built up part of the site)- the message is that abortion is evil – so people should become Christians and then fight abortion.”
That is just not so. It is a thorough presentation of the Gospel that does mention murder, but mentions abortion nowhere and does not say people should be come Christians to fight abortion. It says Christ is the answer to all sin and that we need to follow him and be obedient to his commands. You keep talking about how it is “the least built up part of the site” as if this thread is not throughout the site. You can find talk of a fallen world and the abolitionist goal of “the redemption of man from the dominion of man” on many pages, in many blog posts and all over our facebook page. I am not twisting anything. You literally said the above and it is just not so. Your disappointment in my discernment of it notwithstanding.
“It seems like you’ve put Christ in a box. ”Here, open the box, put Him on, and then we’ve already got his calling for you figured out – and that calling is abortion abolition, which is our ultimate goal.””
We address this mischaracterization in many places. Fighting for the unborn is not a “calling” It is loving your neighbor. It is a command of Christ. We aren’t saying anything that Christ did not say. Those who speak of callings and gifts and about “keeping the main thing the main thing” are actually the ones putting Christ in a box. Their vision of the Great Commission covers exactly half of it (make disciples). If you had read the blog post I posted in one of my comments about the Great Commission you would have seen this. The rest of the Great Commission says “teaching them to observe everything that I commanded you” Of the two greatest commandments is “love your neighbor as yourself.” Loving your neighbor is not a special calling, but for those who wish to avoid the unfamiliar and uncomfortable loving of their unborn neighbor it becomes “not their calling” or “not focused on the Gospel or making disciples.” Abolitionists do not put Christ in a box. We embrace the fullness of the Great Commission by making disciples AND teaching them to observe his commands. That is where the “period” you speak of is rightly found, not in just getting people saved and waiting for Christ to return so we can get out of this place, but in actually teaching that there is power that Christ has given us to shine light into the darkness and to destroy the works of the Devil. Christ is not coming to destroy the works of the Devil. He CAME and set His followers about this work. So, no there is not a “period” when it comes to what we are to do. We will work til Jesus comes as the old song says.
This is not an uncomfortable position for me Ex. I do this sort of discussing every day. What is uncomfortable is that you could go to our site and completely misrepresent it. Would you have told Wilberforce or Garrison to stop talking so much about slavery? Or Bonhoeffer to stop talking so much about Hitler and the extermination of the Jews? Sophie Scholl to stop writing her literature and just put a period at the end of her Gospel presentation? Would you have told Basil of Caeserea to not worry so much about the abortionists and infanticide in his city and just keep the main thing the main thing?
Abortion is the evil of our age. Blood is literally running through our sewers and streets and it is on our hands. Should we not sound the alarm? You came with one example of Todd Bullis’ bio that is actually a story of how Todd came to be an abolitionist. Talk to Todd. He is a great guy. He will tell you that his work is actually all about seeing people repent and come to Christ. I guarantee it. I know these people. They are the most Christ-centered people I know.
As far as whether we understand Carla’s “calling” better than her. Of course we don’t. I don’t know her or her particular gifts. I know a few things though. She is commanded to love her neighbor. We are all told in Exodus not to go with the multitude to do evil and that all murder is wrong. We are told in Proverbs to hold back those staggering to the slaughter. Nowhere do I see mentioned that we are to go along with a little evil by making laws that regulate evil instead of abolishing it. God does not compromise with sin. Abortion is sin. We are not to compromise with abortion if we want to follow God. Same goes for any sin.
Carla-
We bring nothing to the table but what Christ has given us. Without Him we are naked, poor, wretched and blind. There is no human device or legislation or strategy that can end this evil. The bold proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His Word are the answer to all evils. We are all the problem. Our sin and apathy is the problem. We are no better than you. Abortion is only a symptom of the culture of death that we are all living in. Christians are called to be lights. Faithfulness to Christ and His commands and reliance on His providence is our “strategy.” We have an idea of how we see this working itself out, but it all centers on God’s providence. There may be elections and legislation and amendments later on down the road but this will only come when enough hearts have been changed by the Gospel and it won’t be JUST abortion that gets abolished. It will be many things. Abolition is not only about slavery or abortion. It is about God’s Kingdom being advanced in the way that Jesus said it would. Of the increase of His Kingdom there will be no end. I do know this though, He will not bless compromising with sin or doing evil so that good may come. We “do” lots of things, many of them the same things that pro-lifers do, but the distinctives as we see them are plainly listed on our site here http://abolishhumanabortion.com/the-difference-between-pro-lifers-and-abolitionists/
May God bless both of you. I mean that. I harbor no ill will toward any pro-lifer and if I do may God bring me to swift repentance. I am merely trying to be faithful. I was pro-life all my life, but I never did anything. My apathy only came to light when I ran into some kooky people who actually challenged me to live what I say I believe in ALL areas of my life. That’s my story and you can call it what you will.
Trying this again since it appears my last one got caught up in some filter. Here is a cut and paste…
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
December 15, 2013 at 12:58 am
Thank you for your candor Ex-GOP. I certainly want the website to accurately reflect our beliefs, and I plan to spend some time reflecting on your comments. I will, however, make a quick observation before I call it a night. I think what you describe near the end of our post is true about the Christian life in general. Christ is enough for any Christian, in that Christ completely and totally saves us by grace through faith. And that, Ex-GOP, is the Gospel. It is our end, for nothing else can save us. But, the Christian is not to remain isolated and cut off from the rest of the world, effectively sitting back on their laurels, after becoming a Christian. We are saved by faith, but we have good works to do that are prepared by God for us to do. More to the point, we have specific things we are commanded to do by Christ himself, and failing to do those things besmirches Christ’s name. In fact, John drives this home clearly when he states that people who follow Jesus will do what He commands. It’s not that these things contribution to our salvation, but they are the natural outworking of a regenerate heart. Now, I say all of this because I believe (and I think most AHAers agree with me) that abortion is the fruit of unmitigated sinful behavior in our culture. It comes from wrong thinking, the wrong worldview. Abolition is a expression of evangelical Christianity applied to the abortion issue. This is laid out in some of the articles Jill cited above. I believe abortion is extremely serious and Christians ought to be working to bring about its end, but I also believe that the Christian’s obligation is not totally summed up in that one work.
A lot has been written about these things already. I’d encourage you to read through them. I’ve gone ahead and attached two of the articles that come to mind. There are others on the blog, but I don’t remember there titles off hand.
http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com/2013/03/the-great-commission-without-abolition.html?q=Great+commission
http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com/2013/07/are-you-called-to-do-work-of-abolition.html
If you lived in Nazi Germany would you have supported laws such as:
-only Christians were allowed to be killed in concentration camps
-medical experimentation could only be done on people who have downs syndrome
-concentration camps had to meet certain standards of cleanliness or close down
-forced abortions could only be done on unmarried women
Furthermore, would you have trusted the Nazi’s to adhere to these laws?
Jeanna, the point is that laws like that save SOME people at least, even if you can’t save everyone. I’m sure it’s cold comfort to a Jew that’s being slaughtered in a concentration camp if you opposed all murder, if they knew that you had stood in the way of a law that would have at least saved their life if not some other people’s as well. The way you guys approach it, EVERYONE dies, no one is saved.
I would rather save babies that are over 20 weeks gestation than zero babies at all. It really is that simple. And once the public gets used to restrictions at 20 weeks, and realize that those were actual humans that would have been killed otherwise, the next restriction will save even more. It’s building on protecting some babies, trying to save as many as possible while changing the culture enough to recognize the humanity of all unborn babies. And it’s working, we have less abortion clinics, less abortions overall (stats are iffy, but we’re getting there). And even more importantly, young people (from ages 18 – 29) are starting to become more pro-life than pro-abortion, when the opposite was true twenty years ago. And these young people also trend more liberal and non-religious, so as I see it, it’s not necessary to become a “disciple of Christ” to recognize that killing babies is not okay. Not that I think you guys shouldn’t proselytize if you want, that’s your right, but some pro-lifers prefer a secular approach which seems to reaching the younger crowd a lot better.
So if I am getting this right, the AHA strategy is to convert everyone to Christianity?
I am not saying there is anything wrong with that, but I would say that using the word “immediate” to describe that strategy in any way is a misnomer.
Also, if that is the answer to Carla’s “What do you bring to the table” question, then I would say that is a false distinction. Many Pro-lifers seek to spread the word about Jesus and be a good example of a Christian. Non-Christian pro-lifer’s are (in my opinion) doing God’s will regardless. I would add that it is somewhat arrogant to presume otherwise.
The argument that closing clinics and tightening restrictions is counterproductive is to my mind unsupported by any facts.
It seems to me that AHA may be making a distinction without a difference, and I then find myself asking why that is so.
“The way you guys approach it, EVERYONE dies, no one is saved.”
I encourage you to read through the posts on incrementalism that AHA has published.
“the AHA strategy is to convert everyone to Christianity?”
I think you are misunderstanding what the goal actually is. We are evangelical Christians. Of course, we believe that the Gospel is the only solution. We do argue, however, that incremental practices are not consistent with a Christian view of man and God’s relationship to man.
“But I’m not convinced that trying to trap the evil of abortion into a smaller and smaller box is sinful.”
I don’t think it’s the same thing as your example. Laws restricting abortion aren’t intrinsically evil like Catholics believe contraception is. A law saying “don’t kill babies over 20 weeks” is a GOOD thing, it’s just isn’t good ENOUGH. I can see how adding a sin to a sin is wrong, but I simply can’t see how adding a good thing to a sin is wrong, even if the good thing isn’t good enough.
Brian, you say you were always pro-life but never did anything. Then that is on YOU not on the pro-life movement. I do something. I stand outside my local Planned Parenthood almost every week and yes, we’ve turned girls away PRAISE GOD! I have had a chance to witness to the abortionist Lee Tripp! He laughs at me but he has now heard the gospel several times. God can use His Word to pierce that heart of stone–God’s Word will not return void.
We had a lady just a few months ago whose car broke down outside the clinic. They took her to a CPC and she saw her baby and she and her husband chose LIFE for that 5 month old boy! But the best part is she and her husband accepted Christ’s gift of salvation! She was a stripper and after she became born again she knew she could no longer strip. So all the pro-lifers banded together and bought her and husband gas cards, groceries, diapers, baby items (including big items) and a local church bought them a new minivan because the other one was kaput. This woman and her husband were amazed and overwhelmed. Not doing anything? Not the pro-life movement’s fault obviously.
I have even more stories–I am friends with women I talked out of aborting. I love watching their children grow up just HUMBLED that God could use me in this way. Because of my friendship with these women I can talk to them about Christ and I have.
One woman is actively searching…and I have shared the gospel. She has not turned to Christ yet but boy is she asking questions…seeking and I pray she will find. I know she will because God says those who seek Him find Him.
If your concern is to “love your neighbor” do you love your neighbor by feeding the homeless as well? Or is your only concern abortion? Do you love your neighbor by doing other things –I mean actually doing things or do AHA folks “love their neighbor” by shaking their finger in self-righteous disgust at everyone else. I just don’t see “love” when I interact with AHA people. And I know love isn’t condoning sin or anything like that…but I think the way AHA people speak to others is very unloving. So it was ironic when I read that you wrote that.
You might be a lovely person. I can’t tell so far based on this thread. I just know in general with the folks from AHA that I’ve interacted with that there is a very hostile spirit there. Not a loving one. Not a serving one. Not a humble one.
A lot of accusations but no solutions it seems.
So I’ll just keep on doing what I’m doing. I’m not saving every baby but the ones that I do save are thankful that we’re out there.
We should demand of our lesser magistrates (state legislators) total and immediate abolition of abortion. We do NOT have to wait for the next Supreme Court appointment or for abortion to supposedly be returned to the states. We do not have to wait for the Federal government to change the laws or policies. http://www.amazon.com/The-Doctrine-Lesser-Magistrates-Repudiation/dp/1482327686/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387148368&sr=8-1&keywords=lesser+magistrates
A primer. http://www.missionariestopreborn.com/InnocentBlood.pdf
Wake up, Incrementalists! People are more selfish than ever. Look at the details: All of the ways you can kill a baby have increased, not decreased. Abortion rates have increased, not decreased. Tax payer funding through the government has increased not decreased. Why would Planned ‘Parenthood’ want more money. 99 % of their services are abortion! They do not provide adoption services, parenting services or mammograms. Just take a look at their sick website. Contraception is provided in addition to abortion to propagate promiscuous sex and more abortions.
Murder mills/clinics closing does not mean abortions decreased. The few Big clinics have gobbled up the smaller clinics to become stronger!
When we stop compromising, Abortion will end!
Abolish Human Abortion now!
Deluded, I guess it depends how you define pro-life. Is our society really that much better than it was in 1973, or has the definition of pro-life been so watered down that just about everybody fits into that category?
What happens when you negotiate with terrorists?
Furthermore, would you have trusted the Nazi’s to adhere to these laws?
No, but sometimes all you can do is all you can do. There are many examples of people who hid other people from the slave owners and the Nazis. They were doing the best they could do to save as many lives as possible.
Abortion rates have decreased btw.
http://www.lifenews.com/2012/06/20/report-shows-abortion-rate-has-dropped-39-since-1990/
Hi Brian,
How refreshing to speak with someone in AHA who doesn’t bash and run.
I will do all that I can for as long as I can.
So far 3 babies that I know of are alive today because their mommies chose life after they heard my abortion story.
And by God’s grace He has used me to lead post abortive women to the healing and forgiveness that He brings.
God bless you Brian.
I’m coming from it from the angle of, get these women to safety by any means necessary. Of course, to me, that also includes the children, because the women choosing abortion are doing it because they have been so brainwashed by exploitive parties into thinking their children are garbage they could care less about how they themselves are viewed, as long as the soma’s on tap (read BRAVE NEW WORLD), right? Because let’s be honest, who’s out there who’s going to defend them! The AHA founders do good things but they also can be counter pro-ductive themselves, and I see them getting close to making points, and then something always seams to tarnish the polish at the last minuet, kind of falling short of making it really spectacular, so I think they can be mined for their thoughts, like any other group, and those can be applied to the bigger picture. Yes, the abortion lobby uses our concerns for women, because they can’t begin to imagine how to be concerned for women. I think everyone in this movement i, kind of called into a different area of speciality: IE: NEWMAN SLAMS DOWN CLINICS. JOHNSON RECRUITS DISENCHANTED CLINIC WORKERS, HOYE KNOCKS DOWN UNJUST ORDINANCES, STANEK HOLDS UP THE FISTS AND GETS OUT OF THE WAY AS THE BELL RINGS, ROSE TELLS IT LIKE IT IS, that’s how I like to see things. And then there’s Rives Gordon and the John 3:16 guy, I don’t understand why AHA runs after the other guy’s ministry, when they themselves do such a good job at ABOLISHING HUMAN ABORTION by holding signs and supporting their own societies initiatives. Yes, this thing is massive and it’s frustrating watching clinics pop up, and Plan B get pushed, but it was frustrating watching Obama get elected, and the reason that happened is because, on the MOST IMPORTANT THINGS, where was the unity?? We were all like, Tom Hoefferling, Ron Paul, Santorum whomever, not vetting these candidates out long before the election as we should have, as a community, if that is what you call this. The culture of life needs to be maintianed as it grows, nurtured, encouraged, cut back at times, for it is a movement at taking back our Country in the name of God. I remember back at the SF March For Life Cathedral of Light Dinner in Oakland a few years ago some of the pro-life Democrats were trying to weigh on on what their take was on their constituency, and they got shut down by the Republican pro-lifers almost immediately. Too many opiions not enough listeners. I think as long as AHA can take as it dishes out, the discussion is not only healthy but imperative to the growth of the movement. It does bother me that they call Catholics idolators and worshippers of the Pope, but God is still using them to save His babies, and I can’t touch that. I just can’t wear their T-shirt’s either because I know it doesn’t JUST represent Abolishing Human Abortion, it also represents a certain culture of ideas that don’t apply to how I relate to my Creator. So I support the efforts that work at protecting the women, of whom so many are utterly exposed to death from every angle, including family and church members. It’s not about who’s who, it’s about how open we are to God. If some one is just repeating lies over and over, then you know that is either ego or the devil madhatting it, and to, as Christ says, rebuke.
Oh, but hehe, to uh, finish my thought, eh… What I was trying to wrap up with is that maybe AHA doesn’t feel like their voice is being heard, or they are not being included in some kind of forum that exhists, but ironically what they are saying is similar to what Troy Newman says when he says the only way we are going to end abortion is town by town, county by county, state by state, or until it is thoroughly unthinkable. That is not a troy Newman quote, but that is something some one mentioned that he said, and basically AHA is saying, yeah, you can’t just do it here and there to eradicate this thing, you have to go for the heart and desimate the source of this kind of thinking. Alot of people they can’t see the forrest for the trees, all of these little pieces fit into the bigger picture, clinic closures(and Catholic doctrine as it applies to natural law) included. Alot of Catholic Doctrine is just common sense anyways, and alot of African tribes did not believe in birth control for the same reasons the Church does not: birth prevention=death. The human reproductive system is a divine gift.
PChem/Brian -
Thanks to both of you for your thoughts.
Brian – I still don’t think I misrepresented your site. That part really doesn’t matter at the end of the day – it’s the fruit each of us produce. If you guys are from God and doing His work, I’m sure much advances will be made.
99 % of their services are abortion! – that simply isn’t accurate Christy A//A.
They do not provide adoption services, parenting services or mammograms. – they are a provider of physical health services. Adoption and parenting services are a completely different realm. Places which provide adoption services don’t provide contraception or abortions. And PP do provide mammograms.
When we stop compromising, Abortion will end! – societies without compromise are societies which fail.
Abortion rates have decreased btw. – yes they have. Along with the pregnancy rate and the birth rate. What is the rate of chemical abortions replacing surgical abortions?
The report noted that an estimated 84 percent of women who had an abortion in 2008 were unmarried, making it so women without a supportive partner continue to be more likely to have an abortion than married women. – that’s an odd conclusion to draw given the number of happily monogomous, supportive, non-married couples and families out there.
Honestly I don’t understand why pro-lifers try to claim AHA.
Probably because many pro-lifers like their merchandise, share their anti-Catholicism, and think that the churches they harass deserve it.
Contraception may not be God’s will, but birth prevention is not EQUAL to death. What you would be claiming is that there is a unique being whose earthly life is ended. Life does not begin before conception/fertilization. Come on now.
Adoption and parenting services are a completely different realm. Places which provide adoption services don’t provide contraception or abortions. And PP do provide mammograms.
My understanding is that PP clinics do not provide mammograms, except in conjunction with some mobile mammogram services. Medical best practices, as I understand it, are leaning toward encouraging that the mammogram be carried out at a diagnostic center. PP is key in getting women access to mammograms, which in many cases are performed by “prescription,”(that is, by referral) only.
Yes LisaC, PP don’t conduct mammograms, but they do provide them. As you say, they are key in women gaining access to them.
A-HA is a huge joke in my book like other extremist groups (read: going about in unproductive, extremist ways detrimental to the anti-abortion movement)
Yes LisaC, PP don’t conduct mammograms, but they do provide them. As you say, they are key in women gaining access to them.
Well, in common usage, ‘provider’ refers to the person who performs the service, not the person who provides access to it. And so calling them ‘providers’ is not useful in a context where most pro-lifers, through either ignorance or duplicity, deny that referrals are part of getting access.
I forgot to mention here…
Adoption and parenting services are a completely different realm. Places which provide adoption services don’t provide contraception or abortions.
…that Title IX money, a big source of PP’s funding, cannot be used for adoption services. Given how few pro-lifers understand the difference between “revenue” and “profit,” though, they’re not likely to be able to grasp restrictions on use of funds.
Craziness.
Dear AHAs,
I am probably what you call a “pro-lifer,” even though my end goal is to see abortion abolished as well. Indeed, that is my prayer! I desperately want to see innocent blood shed.
But here’s the difference. When I read the Bible, I see that God is great and imbues His people with a wide, vast array of talents and gifts and callings. And through His diverse body, His diverse church, He uses us broken, ever changing vessels to do His work and exclaim His glory.
Some people are called to incrementally change abortion, one woman at a time. Others are called to more “big picture” activities. Others are called to offer healing to post abortive women.
And, shockingly, some are not called to “work on” the abortion issue at all. Not that they should not pray for it, not that they should not donate to it, or talk about it or understand it, but that that is not their primary focus. Maybe they are given a heart and passion to minister to the hispanic communities or the gay community or the poor or the drug addicts or the prisoners or the abused or porn addicts or prostitutes or those caught in sex trafficking.
Not to discount abortion and its severity, which is horrible, and possibly one of the greatest sins of our day, but you do realize that the entire world is rife with a variety of sins and horrors and pains, right? You do realize that as Christians, we are to offer His hope and healing and grace and peace to *all* the sinners, right?? He did not come to abolish abortion; He came to set the captives free from SIN – all sin. Starting with our hearts. And that happens one human at a time. He came and bid us to come and die to ourselves and embrace new life – an everlasting life.
I’m sorry, but *that* is the Gospel. The Gospel is for everyone and once we have entered into His family, once we have been grafted to the Branch, He will fill our hearts with a passion for HIM and use us and transform us each to different things. It’s a kingdom of God – not a single-minded war machine. And that’s the beauty of it.
Alright. just wanted to say my bit.
I’ve just read this thread. Perhaps it might help to liken the effort to end abortion as if it was a war. If we do so, it is highly improbable that all vets felt they had ‘won’ or that their goal-had-been-reached on V-E Day #1. [an awful lot of their buddies were killed and remain dead.].. We are a ‘fallen’ species … and we will survive this (probably though, not as entirely as we would have envisioned/wished! Shorty after WW II, the UN -treaty was founded to avoid such blatant mind-numbing annihilation of humans (note Reality that I did NOT say ‘peoples’) again! Yet here we are … killing other humans and saying: ‘It’s OK!’ .. or, .. “I’m an atheist/ agnostic/ rathioalist/ humanist/ relativist/ Catholic/ Christian/ American/ stupid/ poor/ black/ Hispanic/ just-a-teen/ smart …so it’s OK, to kill!” If we wish to really change a whole society, then we’d better stop looking at only legislation to ‘heal’ our wounds-of-the-heart. [We may begin by breaching nutrient deficiencies that can alter the way brains work – ie: zinc, copper, magnesium, vitamin B6(enzyme), …]
Good heavens… this thread is enough to make my head swim! First, I find myself needing to disagree with the comments of some abortion abolitionists (whose work I value and admire, in general), and second, I find myself agreeing with almost everything EGV has written on this thread! The apocalypse must be near, surely! :)
To the AHA members: I applaud your stated intentions (on this thread, re: abolishing human abortion, and not being willing to tolerate it)… but I must agree with others who have pointed out some errors in your approach and application. For example:
1) It’s not necessary to “condone” a partial victory (or confuse it for a total victory) in order to seize it when the opportunity arises. One is free (and, I would say, morally obligated) to save whomever you can save en route, while striving for the final victory, so long as one doesn’t undercut any moral imperatives thereby. I understand that AHA members are concerned about “agreement to partial victory = undercut further victories in the future = cement the tolerance for the remaining types of abortion even further into the cultural fabric”; but acceding to partial victories need not involve that. See #2 and #3.
2) I, personally, would find it dishonourable and immoral to distort or obfuscate my own opposition to all abortion, simply in order to convince an abortion-tolerant person to “compromise” their position at any given moment. In other words: if an abortion-tolerant person were to ask me, “Will you agree to stop fighting [one class of abortions, such as rape/incest cases], if we give way on [other category of abortions, such as sex-selection abortions] and let the latter become illegal?”, I would be bound in conscience to say “No, I will not; I will gladly agree to such legislation insofar as it limits abortions, but do not be deceived: I see this as only a step toward the ultimate goal, and I put on the public record my absolute rejection of any ‘approval’ of any category of human abortion whatsoever.” To do less would be dishonest and immoral; it would be using Satan’s weapons (deceipt) to try to win a war against him… which is insane. Some would call my position unrealistic, or “less than shrewd”; so be it. Integrity is not maintained by compromising what is right in order to gain what is expedient; no one is morally free to choose (knowingly and freely) evil, even if tremendous good would allegedly result. To do otherwise is to deny that God is sovreign, and to suggest that “we cannot do the Will of God without recourse to sin”… which, again, is insanity itself.
3) Further, we must distinguish between “immoral” and “unwise”. One might coherently argue that agreement to an incremental step in the abortion battle is very unwise and/or potentially harmful to the ultimate goal of abortion abolition (though I don’t think that need be true at all); but one cannot coherently argue that “any agreement to a non-total step is an immoral choice” (which is provable nonsense). It is possible to do so and sin thereby (e.g. freely and knowingly giving your internal approval to the deaths of children within the “remaining abortion categories”); but it is also possible to do so and not sin (e.g. choosing only to endure the evil of continued child-murder in those remaining categories, while being intent on stopping those killings at the first possible opportunity).
For anyone to say that “those who approve incremental steps toward the abolition of abortion are inferior pro-lifers, immoral, craven, compromised, apathetic, etc.” is wrong-headed, at very least. Immorality lies in the will, not in feelings, and not even in actions (per se); two people can perform the very same action (and that action can even be objectively evil–forgive me, Reality! :) ), and yet it’s possible for one to be culpable (by knowingly and freely WILLING the evil, at whatever level) and one to be less culpable or even non-culpable (by being utterly deceived, or utterly coerced, or insane, etc.). Neither you nor anyone else is in any position to pronounce on the will of any other person; only God knows their culpability. This is the basis behind the oft-repeated (and woefully misunderstood) Scriptures which say “Judge not, lest ye be judged; condemn not, lest ye be condemned.” By all means, disagree about tactics (so long as you have reasonable basis for doing so); and pronounce on evil actions and things as loudly as you can (e.g. direct, willed human abortion is always and everywhere a grave evil; and any willful acceptance of it is sinful) but do not go further and say that this-or-that person or group is somehow “less pro-life” or “less authentically Christian” simply for using incremental means; incrementalism, as it has been said before, is not intrinsically (i.e. always and everywhere, regardless of circumstances) evil. (See above.)
I hope that wasn’t too unclear! Summary: please do maintain the goal of abortion abolition. Just do not use your firepower on illegitimate opponents (or legitimate allies).
P.S. As a side note: I fully support Todd Bullis in his efforts to jar the consciences of Christian groups who are apathetic to (or even complicit in) abortion. A lack of concern for what may be the most horrific evil of our age (i.e. abortion) is a spiritual disease, and it will not be cured without stinging medicine, I think; the apathetic have need of a prophet to call them out of slumber and self-absorption. But again: that is a thing very different from choices about “which raw tactics are to be used, once the battle is accepted and joined” (e.g. incrementalism vs. absolutism, etc.). Opposition to abortion is morally obligatory for everyone; choosing one particular weapon from among many different valid weapons is NOT obligatory.
LibertyBelle-
We do not oppose the changing of hearts one at a time (how do you think we all became abolitionists?) We oppose the regulation of abortion through means that educate the culture to believe that there is a difference between a newly conceived human and a 20 weeker. To abandon one to save another is sin. We are out pleading at the clinics, sharing the Gospel on the streets, feeding the hungry, providing for mothers in need, adopting, fostering. That is not the kind of increments we opposes.
We also fully agree with your statements on the Gospel. You will find us saying very similar things if you look into it. Our presentation on the Gospel is orthodox and thorough and we don’t think Jesus came to just end abortion. He came to free us from all sin and to bring his kingdom to earth.
Please, please look into what we say and do. Abolition is not about abortion. If it was it wouldn’t apply to slavery as well. Hint: it applies to all sin.
All I need to know about AHA I learned from Google:
No. of times “we” or “us” is mentioned on AHA’s website: 752
No. of times “Jesus Christ” is mentioned on AHA’s website: 275
The greatest misery does not stop Me from uniting Myself to a soul, but where there is pride, I am not there.—Jesus to St. Faustina
I have to laugh when I see an AHA “abolitionist” making the claim in these comments that people should “not send money” and yet on the front page of their website is a link to a donation page. LOL. You can even become a monthly supporter of AHA!
Paladin
I hope the post you agreed with the most though was the supper hero. I love supper heros!
“objectively evil” – heh heh. Whose ‘objective’ Paladin? Buddhists? Muslims? Christians? Atheists? The current ones, the eighth century ones or the sixteenth century ones?
S’ok Paladin, I forgive you :-)
There’s a dirty little secret when it comes to regulating abortion clinics, and that is that the state can never regulate the clinics so much that it places an undue burden on the woman seeking an abortion. This was admitted by Luther Strange recently in regards to the Planned Parenthood suit in Alabama. Notice the last sentence in this article:http://blog.al.com/…/planned_parenthood_alabama_spa.html
Uh, Bill your link doesn’t work.
Sorry about that. Here’s the full link: http://blog.al.com/wire/2013/12/planned_parenthood_alabama_spa.html
I support everybody doing what we can to end abortion. May God bless our works we do, even if our tactics differ.
There’s a dirty little secret when it comes to regulating abortion clinics, and that is that the state can never regulate the clinics so much that it places an undue burden on the woman seeking an abortion.
Not much of a secret really (given that clearly stated by the plurality opinion in Planned Parenthood v. Casey). It’s up to the courts to determine what constitutes an “undue” burden. In the past, courts have upheld clinic regulations that prevented babies from being aborted.