God wants you to be holy and to stay away from sexual sins. He wants each of you to learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable. Don’t use your body for sexual sin like the people who do not know God.
~ I Thessalonians 4:3-5, New Century Version
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
The Virgin Mary said at Fatima that sexual sins were the most common reason people went to Hell.
I thought the most common reason people go to hell is not believing in Jesus as our savior from sin.
In some other thread I was asked to point out where “pro lifers” thought sex was a sin and not something to be enjoyed. Well, here we are.
Don’t use your body for sexual sin like the people who do not know God. – talk about diabolically assumptive and a false accusation! With a bit of denial thrown in. Some atheists commit less of what theists consider ‘sexual sin’ than some theists do.
Christine: this thread is not about sex per say but sexual perversions. What is it with you constantly misinterpreting things.
edit: “reality” the above statement applies to you too…
Thomas R: if two consenting adults engage in any kind of sex that hurts no one, then it is not a perversion. The only true perversion is being obsessed with other peoples sex lives.
I know you will bring up sexual assaults, child molesting against me, but please, before you do, note the words consenting and adults. I hate those things just as much as you do (probably more, since a true “pro lifer” thinks the assaulted women should be forced to give birth to a child she does not want. That is what I call a perversion).
The Virgin Mary said at Fatima that sexual sins were the most common reason people went to Hell.
I thought the most common reason people go to hell is not believing in Jesus as our savior from sin.
Maybe those who don’t believe in Jesus are also those participating in the most sexual sins/perversions.
You presume too much about what I would bring up Christine. I was thinking more in line of:
– adultery
– men forcing women into anal sex and acting out porn
– feminists sexually satisfying themselves. Now this one is truly a sexual perversion IMO….
Thomas, how about reading my posts for once: adultery hurts the man/woman who is being cheated on. Men forcing women into anal sex; well in that example the woman is not consenting to that particular type of sex (to which I have no objections if both parts agree, though I find it quite dull). And I guess/hope your last example was a bad joke, but in case it was not, well my reply to that is that almost everyone has two sex lives, one with their partner, and one by themselves where we can be fully egoistic. I have, I suppose you have too. And that is about as far away from perversions as you could come. It is about as natural as it gets.
Even if anal sex is consensual Christine it is still a sexual sin and as perverted as they come. Also, natural does not mean not perverted.
I am not interested in other people’s sex lives. I am just expressing my opinion on sexual sin as I see it. I call anal sex perversion and you don’t. I will not subject my wife to it and whatever you do is your business. Have fun and enjoy. I truly mean it. The two “likes” can too.
if two consenting adults engage in any kind of sex that hurts no one, then it is not a perversion.
Two consenting adults bringing in a cadaver would be okay then?
A cadaver of an adult.
(ironically, they are more protected than living unborn babies).
Sad and messed up, isn’t it?
Sad and messed up, yes, and completely nonsensical.
Even an amoral atheist can be furious when her boyfriend cheats behind her back. And, being angry doesn’t mean she hates sex in general. But she does know in her heart that her feelings are valid and that two consenting adults just caused her tremendous pain.
No wonder certain people think women don’t like sex as much as men do. Hands off!
Wrong Christine and Jack - I just don’t think that using hands on oneself defines sex. Hey whatever floats your boat :)
Deadly diseases can be spread by unwashed hands, so chalk up another fail for science-hatin’ abortion fans.
Hear, hear 9ek. I see teens and young women with the short, shorts or spandex with nothing under sitting on desks and tables. I know how the female body works and am totally grossed out when I see this. This does not make me a prude. I don’t want to eat or read in these spots and I point it out when I see it. Arrogance but no self-worth in my opinion. And I see this increasing with the young people in our society; because certain behaviors have become more common doesn’t necessarily make them healthy. STDs have skyrocketed since some of us were teens.
People can become addicted to sex/pornography just like they can to food, alcohol/drugs, gambling, etc. The internet has increased this. I believe for many it starts out with pornography and increases from there. I also think many people become addicted to sex/perversions who were sexually abused and never learned healthier ways to deal with their anxieties and stress. Just like Alcoholics Anonymous, there are great places that can help the sex addict.
The whole consenting adult thing doesn’t always fly with me. I remember reading about a case where a man gave his male lover permission to cut off his penis and eat it. Obviously, those two let their addictions/perversions get the best of them.
I have deleted quite a few graphic comments.
Enough. Please.
Okay, so what’s the point of having a topic on sexual sins if comments discussing whether something is a sexual sin or not just get deleted?
And comments about cadavers and cutting off penises are okay, but not euphemism heavy comments about much less divergent practices? That doesn’t make sense to me?
And Prax I really don’t think that if people don’t agree with whether some practices are okay or not that it necessarily has much to do with them being sexually abused. I think that would be a difficult hypothesis to prove.
I think that the moral of this story (my take on it anyway) is that hands are used for prayer. If we use them in a way that some have suggested here and also use them during services to glorify God, than most certainly we are not only committing sexual sin in the first instance but also a direct sin against God in the second instance.
Carla, we are discussing sexual sin and (from my perspective) how sex can become a perversion, which defines sexual sin. Granted Christine took it in a direction I would not, but hopefully my responses were appropriate and on topic to her commentary. If Jill disagrees, than by all means keep them deleted.
Jack, that is why I said, “I think”. My statement is based on what I have learned in my lifetime.
Ah I see, my misunderstanding there.
I do think most studies show higher rates of sexual dysfunction for sexually abused people compared to those who were never abused, but I don’t believe that sexual abuse can automatically be blamed for any specific person.
Think Christine. Use your cognitive skills to reason this out. Over and out….
Everything starts with us. We cannot justify actions based on the few bad apples and I don’t think this will get us anywhere. When I participate in services I am just concerned with myself and how my actions will benefit me and my family.
This thread wants to relate its message to ourselves and not look for scapegoats to somehow deviate from taking responsibility for ourselves in terms of our sexuality.
Jack,
It doesn’t have to make sense to you. This thread has quickly turned to specific sexual acts that DON’T need to be discussed and that is why I deleted quite a few of yours.
I am asking you to stop.
I was just asking, not complaining about it or asking for comments to be undeleted.
Our new ex-pat was trying to use this quote/thread as a “gotcha” to prove to herself that pro-lifers hate sex. However, it is irrelevant to the humanity of the child. Abortion deliberately murders a living human person. Even if all pro-lifers were sex crazy it wouldn’t change what abortion is. Even if all pro-lifers were prudes, it wouldn’t change what abortion IS or who it kills. We’d still fight to protect the vulnerable. If people want to fight against sex itself, I assume there are already some blogs or websites where they can comment.
I don’t know. Self control and discipline seem like good things in all areas of life. What are the pro-aborts so upset about? This verse is not saying not to enjoy sex but to exercise self control.
A person can enjoy a healthy sexual life and not sin – cheating, etc. Christine, relax. We don’t hate sex. In fact, the Song of Songs is in the Bible and it’s one of the most erotic ancient texts. And in the New Testament, Paul actually commands Christian couples not to deprive each other unless they’ve mutually agreed upon it.
So boom.
And a thousand times amen to 9ek!! All of this is just moot in regards to the issue of whether or not abortion is wrong.
Abortion is wrong. It takes the life of a person. The sex life of a person does not need to be taken into account.
And for the millionth time, pro-lifers are such a wide and varied group that you cannot say that we all view sex the same way. Some of us are Christians, others agnostics, atheists, or whatever. And among Christians, the views of on sexuality and birth control vary widely.
I know Song of songs, it has been excluded (if I remember correct?) in some bible prints. And pro choicers are as diverse as “pro life” groups in our private lives. I just can not understand why even publish this. I think you “pro lifers” are just as confused?
And Liberty Belle, abortion is not wrong. Women are not state property from day one of a pregnancy. Case closed
The quotations are annoying. If it makes you more comfortable, you can call us anti-abortion. Why even publish what? And no, I’m not aware that SoS is taken out of any editions.
Why are we confused? I know pro-aborts are just as diverse. Everyone is (well maybe except for cults but even that, there are only certain beliefs that are held the same).
Anywho. Please explain your statement that women are not state property when they become pregnant. How do you think they’re state property? I must have missed that memo.
Good try, though.
Because abortion is wrong. It is the taking of another human life. Case closed, as you say.
Maybe those who don’t believe in Jesus are also those participating in the most sexual sins/perversions. – I doubt it.
Two consenting adults bringing in a cadaver would be okay then?
A cadaver of an adult. – ‘two consenting adults’ was the phrase used.
Deadly diseases can be spread by unwashed hands, so chalk up another fail for science-hatin’ abortion fans. – what’s the differentiation you are trying to make here? Don’t abortion hatin’ fetus fans touch themselves or other people in any way?
Don’t you hold the hands of your wife or children Thomas R.? Do you not touch them in any other loving way?
Because abortion is wrong. It is the taking of another human life. Case closed, as you say. – not true.
An abortion fan commented that touching someone’s unwashed hands wouldn’t kill you. Typhoid Mary comes to mind….
ew! Which pro-choicer was that?
Difficult to know how long it’s been since someone who’s hand we shake has washed their hands.
Maybe if one washed one’s own hands immediately after touching someone’s unwashed hands?
Hi LibertyBelle. If a woman who is pregnant no longer rules over her body, but that ruling has been handed over to legislators, she is turned into state property. And that is sick.
I will keep on calling you “pro lifers”. Because that is what you call yourself, and putting it in quotation marks is my way of showing what I think of it. As long as you call Reality and me, and others, pro aborts, you will be “pro lifers” to me. Pro abortion is about the most stupid thing to say – why would anyone be pro abort? I am pro every womans right to a choice, and that choice includes abortion.
If I gather all my energy, really concentrate upon it, I might for a short second understand (though of course not share) your opinion that abortions should be wrong if the pregnancy is the result of consenting sex. But the opinion that a raped teenager should be forced to carry that foetus to term, is so sick beyond words, such a total humiliation of women, it makes me sick beyond words; to me it equals spitting in womens faces. Please note that I still do not say to anyone to abort that foetus: I think she has the right to decide if she should or not. You say she should not have that right. OK, that makes women objects for mens pleasure, free for the taking, without a saying what will happen to them – because of the disgusting legislation you want to enforce upon us: and if that is not making the pregnant woman state property, then I do not know what it is.
“Pro life” has always been, is, and will always remain a stain on humanity and an insult to women.
Wait so making abortion illegal would suddenly make rape legal? How does that work? Rape against women only, or rape against men too? How about the rape of infertile woman? Logic does not follow.
Actually if people believe that abortions should be illegal for women who had consensual sex, and legal for those who were raped, it would just be about punishing women for having sex than it would be about protecting an unborn baby. The humanity of the baby doesn’t change because of the circumstances of his or her conception, having the exception for rape really does make it about sex rather than the baby.
Allowing an exception for rape isn’t making it about sex LDPL. It’s about preventing further harm to the victim of a crime of violence.
Not permitting victims of rape to have an abortion is like telling a shooting victim they’re not allowed to have the bullet removed.
Did I say I shared your views? No. Did I say rape was legal? No.
I said that I could by an act of concentration understand, though not share, your views on abortion in case of consensual sex. I do not believe in differentiating between abortions after consensual sex or after rape: it should always be legal, since the living woman always trumps a foetus. And once again: the day you dare stand in front of that crying, maybe beaten teenager, with maybe her life, and definitely her sex life, destroyed wawing your little banner saying “Choose life”, then you have also admitted that you think women are nothing else but sperm buckets.
The humanity of the foetus maybe does not change, but that is irrelevant: the woman decides. The “pro lifer” decides too: over her life. But not over others.
Reality, they do not care about women. Women are disposable objects to the average “pro lifer”.
How dare you compare an innocent human person to a bullet? It is precisely that attitude that shames women who become pregnant by rape. How dare you imply that 23 of HER chromosomes are life unworthy of life? Shame on you, for stigmatizing a woman’s pregnancy! Small humans are people, not objects. Get well soon.
9ek, how dare you stand shouting your stupid rants outside abortion clinics? It is precisely that attitude that shames women who decided they can not carre this pregnancy to term. How dare you imply that she is not capable of making HER own decisions. Shame on you, for stigmatizing a woman’s right to choose.
“then you have also admitted that you think women are nothing else but sperm buckets.”
That’s not how I think about women, at all. Or men for that matter. That’s gross, and you’re projecting or something because it’s certainly nothing that you’ve gotten it out of what I’ve said.
“Allowing an exception for rape isn’t making it about sex LDPL. It’s about preventing further harm to the victim of a crime of violence.”
But it is. If the fetus is a human being (the only real reason to oppose abortion), and you think that all human beings deserve to have their lives protected, then it makes no sense to allow abortions because of terrible conceptions, it doesn’t change the humanity of the baby. I tried to make a rape exception work logically for years but I couldn’t do it. I might as well just go pro-choice if I were to be okay with exceptions, because I’d be saying that yeah sometimes it is okay to kill babies. I don’t like the no exceptions stance, but it’s the only one that’s logically consistent.
DLPD, of course it is the only logical stance. That is why you should leave the anti women group and become pro choice. You are very welcome to join us in the fight against them
And sorry if I’m not making sense I’m really, really tired but can’t sleep.
Christine I’m not going to become pro-choice. Not only would I have to acknowledge that my own life is worthless and it was a tragedy my mom was prevented from aborting me, I’d also have to basically change my entire personality and stop caring about children. I just wish you could see it’s not about hating women, it’s about protecting tiny defenseless humans.
How dare you compare an innocent human person to a bullet? – I’m not. See, even now the woman is not paramount in your thoughts. I’m comparing the treatment of the victims of crimes of violence. You want to dictate how a woman is permitted to deal with having been raped, I don’t
It is precisely that attitude that shames women who become pregnant by rape. – no, it is those who imply shame with ‘well if she hadn’t…..’ or those who would dictate her path.
How dare you imply that 23 of HER chromosomes are life unworthy of life? – I’m doing no such thing. I’m stating that it is a womans choice as to what is the best way for her to cope with the situation rather than having things dictated by someone else. I consider all of her chromosomes worthy of living life to the fullest possible extent.
Shame on you, for stigmatizing a woman’s pregnancy! – I make no judgement of a womans pregnancy, unlike some.
Small humans are people, not objects. – fetuses are potential people. You would prefer that a woman loses her own personhood because you put fetuses above all else?
Get well soon. – I’m not the one who needs to recover.
And I am protecting the integrity of adult human beings, which is infinitely more important than protecting those who would never be aware of their non-existence.
Sorry about your sleeping problems. I have too, but the opposite one. I wake up far too early and I am collapsing early at night. I hope you get a good nights sleep.
What about how an unwanted pregnancy through rape changes the humanity of the woman LDPL.
“And I am protecting the integrity of adult human beings, which is infinitely more important than protecting those who would never be aware of their non-existence.”
But newborns and infants up to a certain age wouldn’t be aware of their death either! That’s the thing. Unborn babies exist, they don’t go to non-existence when aborted, they are just dead. I don’t think them being unaware changes that at all. My kids wouldn’t be any less dead if they died at one day old or five years old.
“What about how an unwanted pregnancy through rape changes the humanity of the woman LDPL.
What? I think you misunderstood me. I don’t think women ever “change their humanity” regardless of the circumstances of their unwanted pregnancy, consensual sex or rape. She’s just as human either way. What I’m saying is that the baby is always human too, and the way that human came to be doesn’t change their right not to be killed.
Though to be completely honest I have a lot of trouble reconciling no exceptions for rape/incest emotionally, but it doesn’t really matter how I feel about it.
Reality, your latest post is probably not understandable to the average “pro lifer”…
Thanks Christine I hope you can get more sleep too. I don’t sleep much anyway, I have terrible nightmares and insomnia, but the last couple days I’ve had very sick kids and they haven’t been sleeping at all so neither do I! I fell asleep while I was fixing a car at work today, lol, my boss caught me snoozing lying on my back under it!
DLPD, you are even worse off than I am. That one was real fun.
Dear Christine,
I would like to know what you said to that scared teenager that was raped and became pregnant.
How did you counsel her?
What did you say to her?
What did you offer her?
Dear Reality,
I would like to know what you said to that scared teenager that was raped and became pregnant.
How did you counsel her?
What did you say to her?
What did you offer her?
“Don’t you hold the hands of your wife or children Thomas R.? Do you not touch them in any other loving way?”
Aren’t you on purpose convoluting the sexual sin issue “reality.” We were discussing using hands in a way that would promote sexual sin and you leap-jump to holding hands and embracing a loved one as somehow a counter-point argument? Are you for real????
Carla
I would like to know what you said to the scared teenager that was raped and became pregnant. So far I have not had that experience. I had a friend who was raped, but she lived in another city and I did not get to meet her until some weeks after it happened. By then she had already had emergency contraception (Mifepristone). So I really do not know if she was pregnant or not, but to her it was a decision taken in a minute in the disgust she felt.
How did you counsel her? What did you say to her? I did what normal people do, I listened to her (in the initial phase over the phone, later in person) and I let her set the pace. I supported her in the decision she had made – I would never have dreamed of imposing my views upon her.
What did you offer her? I offered her my company, unlimited access to me over the phone, my time and my friendship. I still do – she is not fully recovered.
I think what I offered is a bit superior than screaming “Choose life”. People who do not want to give even rape and incest victims this choice are severely disturbed. I do not back one inch from that position.
Christine, how presumptive of you to assume all pro-lifers only scream “Choose life” to rape victims or any woman in a vulnerable position.
You come across incredibly bitter. Hope you get well soon.
I don’t think you are accomplishing much with insults. IS it your aim to perhaps change our minds or just troll for lack of anything better to do? If you want to accomplish anything productive cut out the insults. For a minute there you were civil and than the true Christine came out. Sheeish…
Christine
Perhaps you should leave the counseling of those that have been raped and become pregnant to those of us that actually DO that instead of just talking about imaginary situations and projecting your feelings about it onto others.
I have counseled women. 2 in all of my years. That have become pregnant after rape. Because it is RARE. As we have already talked about.
PS
I asked you to stop swearing Christine. I warned you to stop and you simply did not heed it.
You have been banned.
I would like to know what you said to that scared teenager that was raped and became pregnant.
I think Christine gave a good answer. What a hard time – letting her set the pace, and supporting her decision is good.
This has come up before, and I could see a situation where I might not blindly support her decision. I’d have to know the girl really well; then it might be that I’d think she is making the wrong choice, for the long run. It could be either way, which ever choice was her first one.
Not saying come on loud with, “I know you better than you know yourself,” nothing like that. But it might be something like, “There are many years ahead of you, and changes to come. As much as I know you, I think that you will really end up regretting the choice you are making here.”
____
Jack: I fell asleep while I was fixing a car at work today, lol, my boss caught me snoozing lying on my back under it!
A former co-worker of mine had worked as a mechanic, and said he used to take little naps when he was in the mechanics’ pit – that place where you can walk down into it to service the underside of the car – he’d reach both arms over a driveshaft, for example, grab both cuffs of the sleeves of his shirt in one hand, and with the other hand, clamp on a pair of vice-grips. Then he could relax and sleep, standing there. If anybody yelled at him or asked him something, he could move around a little and answer them while taking off the vice-grips….
Yeah I’m not up to discussing that with you Doug.
I will say though that the young girls I have counseled that have been raped and were pregnant? Both didn’t WANT abortions. They both knew that their child(NOT rapist’s child)didn’t do anything and they REFUSED to kill their babies for how they were conceived.
Smart girls. They knew fetal development. They knew a human life was growing.
And they put their precious ones up for adoption. And received counseling to get through the aftermath of the rape itself and watching another family be blessed with a child through such horrific circumstances brought much, much healing.
I know right?????????
Christine, I’ve counseled women as well. Some ended up having abortions. Some chose life. But no matter what they chose, I helped them and supported them and was there to give them space and to talk about what they felt. I was ever gentle and kind and compassionate. I told them the truth of abortion and gave them hope that that was not their only course of action. Most of them were relieved and surprised to find this out. I never forced anyone to do anything, not did I belittle anyone. The ones who chose to abort anyway, I calmly and lovingly told them that they were welcome back any time should they ever regret the abortion.
I know. I’m a big, bad, scary, evil pro-lifer waving signs in their faces screaming choose life.
Give me a break. Most prolifers I know have been nothing but compassionate.
That is great, makes me glad to hear. But in another case she might really want the abortion, and then it should be available. The final decision is always hers.
Are you using another IP address Christine?
The final decision is always ours. The final decision of murders is theirs. The final decision of a rapist is theirs. But that does not make that decision right.
Why do you worship decisions and autonomy so much?
I know right?????????
Carla, for those girls, it sounds right to me.
Best intentioned Carla,
which scared teenager?
How did you counsel her? – I am not a counsellor. If I was I would offer all the knowledge and options I could, without personal bias.
What did you say to her? – I would do as I have stated above.
What did you offer her? – I would offer support, advice and as much knowledge as I could, without bringing any agenda to it.
I would not ‘urge’ abortion. I would not ‘urge’ anything. I would provide support and information and respond to questions.
I know of only one woman who became pregnant through rape. She sought professional counselling and had an abortion as she did not want to ‘carry’ the physical manifestation of what she had been subjected to.
Aren’t you on purpose convoluting the sexual sin issue “reality.” We were discussing using hands in a way that would promote sexual sin and you leap-jump to holding hands and embracing a loved one as somehow a counter-point argument? Are you for real???? – dude! You said that hands are used for prayer. Have I misconstrued you meaning that is all you use them for? ;-)
how presumptive of you to assume all pro-lifers only scream “Choose life” to rape victims or any woman in a vulnerable position. – so you do also offer abortion as an option do you?
Reality I do tell them that it is an option because it legally is at this point.
But I also tell them the truth about it and don’t sugar coat it.
But I also tell them the truth about it – well I would like to feel confident that you do. Any examples you’d care to offer?
and don’t sugar coat it – no sugar coating required.
Oh well, so much for confidence :-)
SOrry I missed your comment – been doing damage control with my now super active 8 month baby. It’s a lot. ;)
Well when women would come to where I’d work, they ask what their options are and I’d go through all of their options. Abortion, adoption, parenting. And then I’d describe what happens during an abortion based on trimester, etc.
Reality you don’t like it when people imply snidely that you’re ignoring questions, when you’re just busy! Why would you do that to LibertyBelle? :( She’s a young mother with a child who is very busy.
PATRIARCHY! ;)
lol
“so you do also offer abortion as an option do you?”
I do wonder about this, too. It seems as though you’re implying that everyone should offer abortion as a choice, even if it’s like a CPC that blatantly states that they are offering abortion alternatives and will not refer for abortion? How does that make sense at all? It’s almost like even if all of us were not fighting for abortion to be made illegal, if we were simply focused on providing other options, you’d still see us as in the wrong if we weren’t championing abortion. I know all pro-choicers don’t think like this, Hal who comments here has said several times he doesn’t see any issue with CPCs and the services they provide.
It would be like if I started up a vegetarian restaurant because I don’t think it’s moral to eat meat and I’d like to offer people other dietary choices, and you implied that I was doing something wrong by not offering steaks and hamburgers! Why would I have to?
Lol yes LibertyBelle, Reality used his male privilege to shame you for not immediately replying to him!!! :D
(j/k Reality you know I’m just joshing you)
So there I was formulating a nice and possibly mildly amusing response to LibertyBelle’s reason for her delayed answer – such as “I think you mean damage limitation and repair, not control :-) ” .
I don’t recall responding as you describe LDPL. I think I’d be more likely to respond in a similar manner to how LibertyBelle did. Can you show me an example? (Mind you, I did wait 20 hours and saw several comments posted on a couple of other threads in the last few hours).
Thank you for recognising my equal treatment of genders though :-)
I wouldn’t expect a CPC to offer the option of abortion LDPL, we know they have an agenda and tend to misinform. I asked LibertyBelle if she offered the option of abortion becuse she said how presumptive of you to assume all pro-lifers only scream “Choose life” to rape victims or any woman in a vulnerable position.
But anyway….
So you only mention the abortion procedure itself LibertyBelle?
“I don’t recall responding as you describe LDPL. I think I’d be more likely to respond in a similar manner to how LibertyBelle did.”
I’m just teasing you dude. I do find it amusing when people ask a question, and if someone doesn’t get back to them within a couple hours they act like they were avoiding it. Despite popular opinion sometimes some of us have lives! Except for me.
“I wouldn’t expect a CPC to offer the option of abortion LDPL, we know they have an agenda and tend to misinform.”
Like I’ve said before, there’s no “misinforming” if a PRC or CPC says that they are an abortion alternative place, and they are upfront with the fact that they will not provide or refer for abortions. If they pretend to be an abortion clinic or something that’s one thing (and I acknowledge that there are CPCs, maybe a couple out of the thousands that exist and are honest, who may be less than forthcoming), but most of them are listed under abortion alternatives and are upfront with the fact that they are anti-abortion.
Everyone’s got an agenda!
I dunno LDPL, looking after you son and daughter and sleeping under parked cars isn’t like, totally boring :-)
That’s not the misinforming I was referring to.
“What do we want!?!”
“An agenda-free society!”
“When do we want it!?!”
“Sometime soon, I’m a bit busy right now, full agenda and all that!”