Stanek weekend question: Should pro-lifers support OTC sale of contraceptive pills?
AllahPundit at HotAir.com poses this as a political question: Should the GOP support over-the-counter sales of birth control pills?
I’d like to ask the same of pro-lifers. Be sure to take the poll at the bottom of this post.
To boil AllahPundit’s thoughts down, now that the Supreme Court has ruled closely held for-profit corporations do not have to pay for abortion-causing contraceptives, the Obama administration could force insurance companies to provide them “free” (spread the cost among all insurance payees) or force taxpayers to foot the bill (actually, more of the bill we already foot through so-called “family planning” funding).
So why not just make contraceptive pills available over-the-counter, i.e., without a prescription? If the much higher dosed morning-after pills are now available OTC, why not “morning-before” pills? This would simply alleviate the HHS Mandate mess.
Policy reasons to support OTC contraceptives
Ben Domenech at The Federalist thinks such a move would be good policy:
There are a number of objections to this, but I find them to largely amount to unconvincing paternalism. The chief argument advanced is that standard oral contraceptives mess with hormones and have all sorts of side effects. This is, of course, true! But: dangerous side effects are rampant within all sorts of other over the counter drugs. Women can think for themselves and make decisions with their doctor and pharmacist about what drugs they want to take….
It’s obvious why libertarians like the idea of OTC birth control. Conservatives should like it because it removes the responsibility for redistributive payment from themselves while demonstrating that yes, they really aren’t about banning things or preventing access to birth control. And liberals should like it because it will lower the drop-out rate, which is currently largely driven by the requirement to re-up the prescription as much as every few months. The American College of OB-GYNs supports it….
Political reasons to support OTC contraceptives
Philip Klein at the Washington Examiner thinks the move would be politically savvy on the part of Republicans:
It would make it a lot more difficult for Democrats to portray the GOP as being only interested in obstructing Democrats rather than supporting their own ideas, and harder to accuse Republicans of being broadly against access to birth control…
If Democrats oppose the move, they’ll have to explain why they want to force women to go through their doctors to obtain birth control and make it harder for uninsured women to gain access.
Moral reasons to oppose OTC contraceptives
The major con against approving of OTC hormonal contraception from a pro-life perspective is it might be to tacitly endorse wider distribution of abortion drugs.
A con from a pro-woman perspective would be that making birth control pills available without seeing a doctor decreases the likelihood girls and women will get proper screening before taking hormonal contraceptives, which are contraindicated for a variety of reasons. Such a move would also decrease the likelihood of proper preventative care, such as PAP smears and breast exams.
Cons from a pro-family perspective would be that wider availability of contraceptives might increase sexual promiscuity as well as aid and abet sexual perpetrators.
The Planned Parenthood factor
It will be interesting to see how Planned Parenthood comes down on this idea.
Seems to me making hormonal contraceptives available OTC would severely cut into its profit margin. Women would no longer need appointments to get contraceptive pills, nor would they need the Planned Parenthood middleman to purchase them. Wonder if this is one reason Planned Parenthood has begun pushing IUDs. [UPDATE 7/6 5:30p: Looks like ‘m on to something. Robin Marty, Truth-Out.org, July 5: “Of course, conservatives really want OTC contraceptives not because they think people should have the ability to prevent pregnancy, but because they hope that would put Planned Parenthood out of business. Once again, that is always the end goal.]
Your thoughts?
[Bottom photo via Planned Parenthood]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
That’s cute – Mr Klein thinks that support would help the GOP look better with women.
The Hobby Lobby case is a polling disaster for the time of women the GOP need to court, which is women under 40. Strongest group against the decision.
The GOP will continue to do well in House races – but it’s almost time to just skip this whole President election nonsense and let the Dems just pick who is next each election.
No!
I don’t know. I mostly worry about safety. OTC meds tend to be abused and used incorrectly (look at the deaths and damage from acetaminophen, for example, a lot of people die or get permanent damage from that). Hormonal birth control has its health issues too, I worry about young girls getting hold of it and not understanding proper usage. Adult women, whatever, they are adults and are capable of their own decisions, but what fifteen year old is not only going to take their pill the same time every day, but understand the risks of side effects and how stuff like antibiotics can affect effectiveness? Maybe it could just be behind the counter and age restricted.
And morning after pills and daily hormonal bc does not have evidence of post-fertilization mechanism and I wish we would stop with that unscientific claim.
I’m short on time, and I need to read the article.
Just answering the headline:
1) Medical concern: Birth control hormones are very dangerous drugs. They should not be treated and sold like candy.
2) This pro-lifer understands that birth control gives a false sense of “protection,” and so more birth control means more unplanned pregnancies — especially among teens, who will be primary target market of this easy-access strategy. Nobody wants more unplanned pregnancies.
3) Planned Parenthood needs more unwanted teen pregnancies to keep its abortion demand up. If PP expects to be defunded, they will push hard for OTC birth control.
Deluded, I agree with you. I worry about young girls getting a hold of it. It can wreak havoc with their health. The pill is poison. It should not be available like candy.
However, the morning after pill and bc control pills DO have a post-fertilization mechanism. It is in the insert for the pill! Why you keep trying to argue it doesn’t when the very insert that comes with the pill SAYS it does is beyond me. I used to take the pill. I read the insert. I know.
Because I read the research and there is not the evidence for it. The inserts a warning from forever ago and never had the scientific backing.
I support OTC with restrictions. There’s really not much difference between that and the sale of tobacco products, except that second hand smoke hurts the people around the smoker and the Pill hurts the women who take it.
I say make it available to women above the age of consent (card them, just like with tobacco and alcohol sales).
You can also do like they do with many meds in Israel: you can only purchase after a consult with the pharmacist about risks and proper use, and the pharmacist asks about contraindicated meds.
Tobacco only hurts people other than you if you are a selfish, rude smoker who doesnt separate from non-smokers at least twenty feet in fresh air.
I agree with all the rest of your post Rachel.
Since the PC culture has given up on self-control and risk avoidance/risk elimination I imagine many think OTC b/c sounds like a good idea unfortunately the unintended consequences will be many. “Teens can’t wait and won’t wait for sex” is a myth and a fallacy mainly propagated by PP and the Dead Babies R Us crew. We sell our teens so short actually the numbers and percentages of 15-17 year olds who have (1)NEVER participated in any form of sexual activity (53% of guys and 58% of girls), (2) NEVER had sexual intercourse 68% of guys and 67% of girls, along with (3) pregnancy rates, (4) abortion rates and (5) teen parents rates are way down but you would never know it.
http://www.acf.hhs/gov/programs/fysb/content/docs/20090226_abstinence.pdf
Actually it’s the 20-24 year olds who have the highest numbers of these statistical categories now.
Hi Jack, I agree with your first paragraph at 11:55am.
Are you saying that Plan B and Ella are not abortifacients? Hmmmm. I would always want to error on the side of life from conception until natural death myself. Plenty of women taking them like candy from what some PCCs are saying although they don’t always work and lots of money being spent on them from what I hear. I would not automatically take the word of the pharmaceutical companies and pro-choice sources on their mechanism but if you have a unbiased source that would be interesting to see.
Take care and God bless you and your kids. I am still praying for you.
There arent any peer reviewed studies that support a post fertilization mechanism for morning after pills, and its not just pharmaceutical company studies. They barely even work! On my phone will link studies later.
Thank you for the prayers.
It is recognized by the experts that normal birth control pills can cause an abortion, IF you agree with the scientific view that life begins at conception…here is a good summary from a religious person who supports this view with sufficient reference to the science:
http://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Feb/17/short-condensation-does-birth-control-pill-cause-a/
Pro-choice people can still claim that it is not known that birth control pills cause abortion because it would be an incredible stroke of luck to document this happening.
It is hypothetically very reasonable to happen on “rare” occasions. But the “rare” occasions have to happen mathematiclly.
If it happens one in ten million months of pill use, or a hundred million, the popularity of the pill means that it does happen.
Winning the state lottery has very slim odds, but it happen quite regularly – because so many people play. Likewise, many people play at the BC game.
Since BC inevitably leads to the ending of a human life, in its regular use, the case can be made that it is not moral to be in support of its use.
If you believe in the politically-manufactured idea that “pregnancy” begins at implantation, and that the beginning of life does not matter, then there is no problem or issue. This manufactured bit of rhetoric has been around since th elate 1950s, as far as I can document.
We can’t legislate stupidity and self-harm out of existence. If we don’t want women using hormonal contraceptives, we need to change the culture.
Deluded–
I have yet to meet a smoker who stays away from others while smoking, but then again, my main contact with smokers is pretty much limited to people who hang out at playgrounds and puff away while leaning on the equipment.
I have been an RN for almost 40 years. All the previous written posts sound great, except that many of the young women are extremely incompetent people who are incapable of actually being sexually disciplined with themselves-hence, if they have a sexual itch, it gets scratched. Do I like this? Of course not. The rest of society gets pretty badly beaten up as well, with rising numbers of unwed mothers, STDs and dysfunctional families, which we all get to pay for. All we can do as a society is try to minimize the damage. Birth control has to be available, easily and cheaply.
Hand it out like candy! Getting pregnant has risks, too and can also wreck havoc with your health. If the pill is an OTC drug, that eliminates an enormous amount of the vitriol towards pro-life movement. It really does keep everything private. I appreciate that the previous posts comment that many young women do not know the consequences of using the pill, the side effects and such-they also do not appreciate the consequences of having sex at a young age. Young women use all sorts of other medications incorrectly, as well as illegal ones. All the screaming in the world will not change a thing. Again, all we can do is try to minimize the damage. Quite bluntly, if you do not like the pill, DON’T USE IT!!!
Second-hand smoke is like global warming. Lots of politics and money chasing a pre-determined conclusion…. and no one is surprised when the conclusion is found. A significant portion of intelligent people don’t believe it, because the integrity of the research is tainted.
susan d: Welcome.
You believe that birth control works, and that young people cannot be taught self-control.
So you recommend handing out dangerous drugs to young women.
We know that birth control often fails, and young people can be chaste. (So can old people, if we have the honest desire to do so.)
So we do not want to let dangerous prescription drugs loose on our children, encouraging them to abuse and STD’s and broken relationships and unintended pregnancies.
Ive literally never seen someone try to deny the massive amounts of evidence that second hand smoke is harmful. Im honestly appalled.
This question is about bc pill use. As a life-long committed celebate, the question seems irrelevant until you understand that for many folks preciousness for life is not usually a-once-does-it-shot-from-The-Divine but a slowly accumulating perspective that all HUMANS (including little-ole-ME) has ‘worth’…. enough to respect and not abuse. why do we dwell on abuse behaviours instead of maximising ‘humanness’? Being smart (more human) is being pill-free … close to drug-free.
“I would not automatically take the word of the pharmaceutical companies”
I agree wholeheartedly. I just finished an interesting, educational and at times disturbing book (Mary, if you’re around, you’d love it!) It’s written by Jon Ronson (author of “The Men who stare at Goats”) and it’s entitled “The Psychopath Test – a Journey through the Madness Industry”.
It’s an eyeopener about the DSM manuals and how they were written, the psychiatry industry, and prescription drugs.
If you don’t educate yourself and those around you, you can really be taken for a ride and played for a fool. Women are starting to figure that out with regards to the bc pill. We need to keep educating our young people that what seems to be the easiest route is not always the best nor safest route.
I think the “pros” are very tempting, but fundamentally these are dangerous drugs. Really dangerous drugs. Women should be under medical supervision.
Del – are you serious regarding the second hand smoke? I’ll second DLPL.
I’ve never seen any of the “massive evidence” concerning second-hand smoke. All rumors to me. So I am still a denier.
I am also a research chemist, so I have some knowledge of scientific investigation. I don’t know of any controlled experiment involving exposure to normal levels of second-hand tobacco smoke, even with animals.
Then came “third-hand smoke” — the supposed toxins that cling to smokers while they are outside enjoying a break, and exposed to their infant children when they hug at home. Ha!
It was convenient to make a demon of second-hand smoke. It kept the public docile as the states gouged Big Tobacco for billions in fines. Of course, the money is gone — but the myth remains.
Full disclosure: My personal agenda relates to my hobby of pipe smoking. I followed tobacco bans and legislation as closely as I follow pro-life news.
(I do know that global warming is real, although I think it is folly for politicians to promise that it can be changed. My original point is that people don’t trust science when there is more politics than evidence.)
Well, said, John McDonell! Contraceptives have led to the dehumanization of not only unborn children, but of the women who use them, and the men who take advantage of them as well.
Because of the Pill, in our culture children have become, not a gift from God to a married couple, but objects to choose or discard if “unwanted” (e.g., if the Pill fails); women are not protected and esteemed as bearers of life, but seen as objects for the pleasure of men; males are no longer challenged to live as real men through self-mastery and chivalry, but are allowed to act as animals, to indulge in whatever urges may pass their way.
I’m a bit surprised that the issue of the Pill as a carcinogen, known to cause breast and other cancers (Group 1 carcinogen–World Health Organization) has not been brought up. Also, that it pollutes the environment, so much so that the UK was/is considering a $1500/yr/user tax to clean up the waterways.
To sum up the Pill: destroyer of society, families, and human life; powerful, dangerous, carcinogenic drug; environmental hazard. Why would we want to make this more readily available over the counter, and to children besides???
Woops. Hit send too soon before fact-checking the UK tax. The tax was not a government thing as above comment implies, but a suggestion by a Forbes writer as to how to pay for the cost of water cleanup in the UK. Hormonal contraceptives’ water pollution is real. BTW, nothing is being done in the US to clean up the bc hormones in our water.
Im a smoker and I have never once tried to deny it is a harmful, dangerous, and filthy habit. Don’t smoke around nonsmokers, it is rude and dangerous. We can kill ourselves slowly but have no right to do so to other people. What about asthmatics? You smoke around my son he will start wheezing so bad I have to take him to the ER. I have no respect for smokers who force our addiction on others.
And how many jobs do you have Del? Lol.
There is way more evidence that second hand smoke harms people than there is that the pill has a post fertilization effects. Its not even close.
The pill is an inferior product which I don’t think anyone should take.
Deluded Lib Pro-Lifer says:
And how many jobs do you have Del? Lol.
I have a crazy lot of job experience and education. More than a sane person needs.
20 years of analytical chemistry, mainly in “registration work” for drugs and agrochemicals, some food packaging polymers.
10 years as a CPA accountant, half of that with a Fortune 500 corporate office. But I’ve done tax returns in the mall for low-income filers.
And some grad-level courses toward a Catholic theology degree.
I own some apartments and manage them myself.
I smoke a pipe, ride motorcycles, and have a private pilot license.
And I put the magazines on the shelves at grocery and drug stores.
=====================
A quick search of the web doesn’t turn up many actual studies that evidence increased risk of lung cancer due to second-hand smoke. Actually, there are quite a few hits on studies that show no increased risk! Here’s an article full of links, but you can do your own search:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2013/12/12/study-finds-no-link-between-secondhand-smoke-and-cancer/
Now, I readily admit that cigarette smoke is irritating. Sensitive persons ought to avoid it; it can trigger asthma attacks. My dad smoked cigarettes, and my sinuses would swell. I don’t have a reaction while enjoying pipes or cigars, so I must assume that the irritant is some other chemical — not the tobacco.
In taverns and pubs, cigarette smoke can be pulled down to non-irritating levels by filters and exhaust fans. There was never a need to ban smoking entirely. Really!
But there was a lot of money in making people think that there was.
I’m having some fun with Google:
Here is “Fourth-hand smoke”: The dangerous health affects that happen when you walk through the cloud of smokers on your way into a building, and then your kids die from the residue on your clothes:
http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2010/11/article-warns-of-dangers-of-fourth-hand.html
Concerning the real v. perceived risks of second-hand smoke, there’s a lot of smoke but not fire.
Sadly, there are very real and dangerous risks related to the hormones that we push into the women we love.
But people have grown jaded to health safety warnings. No one is dying from the micrograms of pesticide residues. People live with smokers and don’t seem to get lung cancer. Global warming hasn’t changed anyone’s life yet. So people have stopped paying attention.
But one in eight women experiences breast cancer. And the cancer is more aggressive and occurring in younger women. Not to mention the blood clots, pulmonary embolisms and strokes. And the failures that result in unexpected pregnancies.
So it is no surprise that some people want to sell birth control OTC like cigarettes.
Dear Del,
We need to answer the specific question:should the pill be sold over the counter, yes or no? Is it relatively safe-yeah, it is. Is it perfect? No. Are there problems with the pill? Yes. Do I believe that teens can be taught about celibacy and practice it? Yes, I do and that is how I taught my own children. But what about kids who do not give a rat’s fanny about celibacy and want to engage in sex? Many young people use birth control correctly. You are going off on a tangent about teens having sex and that they should not have the pill because they should be celibate. News flash, Del:THEY ARE HAVING SEX AND YOU CANNOT STOP THEM!!! Do I like that behavior? No. Can the behavior be changed once they are sexually active? Probably not. So either we get used to even more unwed mothers and abortions or we give birth control OTC. By making the pill OTC, the privacy of the user is maintained. Since the government seems to want to know everything about every person, medical privacy is an issue that cannot be taken too lightly.
Susan D: This is a boring question, but you are new here.
The Pill, OTC? — NO.
Most unplanned pregnancies happen to young people who think they are “safe” because they are using contraception. We know that more contraception = more abortions…. Planned Parenthood knows this, and that’s why PP pushes birth control on young people.
Making birth control more easily available means more abortions, so we will all oppose it on this basis. Some of us care about women’s health and the cultural morality, so we will oppose the OTC proposal on that account.
Some of us don’t give a rat’s patootie about Democrats and Republicans and contraception politics, so proposing more abortion and more cancer just to get Republicans elected does not persuade us.
I was a teen in the 70’s, before BC was prescribed to teens. I remember that my peers were mostly chaste, because we were all naturally afraid of getting pregnant. The teen pregnancy rate zoomed when doctors started prescribing hormones to teens for everything — like cramps and acne and irregular periods.
So NO to BC OTC. There are no compelling arguments for it.
Dear Del,
My, how patronizing. Why not just pat me on the head and tell me to run along? I remember many of my friends getting pregnant in the 60s and 70s-the majority got married but many had abortions once they were legal.
Whether or not you like the pill is moot.
Making the pill OTC-hell yes. If you do not like it, then please do not use it.
Should pro-lifers support OTC sale of contraceptive pills?
This pro-lifer doesn’t. I don’t believe it will reduce unwanted pregnancies or abortions. The majority of women receiving abortions are already using contraception. I also think the pill is bad for women, bad for relationships, and bad for the environment. It’s a no-win proposal.
Sure, there might be some political benefits of this strategy. But in the end I think it’s bad for humanity, so who cares about scoring some political points.
Dear Lrning,
I appreciate your opinion. I do disagree with it.
The pro-life movement needs to ask themselves questions regarding privacy, freedom and ugly paternalism.
If I believe in privacy and freedom, then I cannot be against the pill being OTC. This eliminates a doctor’s visit and a written record of who is receiving the pill. It will also lower the price-that is a plus. Are there some people who will abuse this-yeah, just like OTC cough medicine is bought to make meth.
It disturbs me greatly that so many pro-life people seem to think that an unwanted pregnancy is just desserts for an unmarried woman who has sex. Is that what we are and is that what we want? Who benefits from this type of thinking? Is a pregnancy supposed to be a punishment?
So what is the consequence when pregnancy happens? Abortion or a single parent family, frequently mired in poverty. It does not help that we pay young women to not be married when they start having children. Oh yes, I hear you-the baby can be adopted. The baby will not be adopted-you know I am telling the truth here.
It is moot whether or not most women who have abortions are on birth control. If you do not believe that the pill is something for you to use, I respect your right to not use it. I definitely want it to be OTC and available.
Um, how nice of you to ASSUME that people against OTC bc believe “pregnancy is just desserts for an unmarried woman who has sex”. Frankly, your entire last post could have been written by a pro-choicer. Perhaps it was.
Dear Llrning,
Oh yes, if I disagree with you, I must be pro-choice-quite the contrary; I have tried to talk friends from having abortions and hate the pro-choice movement. If you would read what I actually wrote, I stated that “so many pro-life people seem to think that an unwanted pregnancy is just desserts for an unmarried woman who has sex”. I did not state all people against OTC birth control pills are this way. We all know pro-lifers who think this way and do not insult my intelligence and tell me this is not true with some of them.
Let us talk about the actual substantial and quantifiable pros and cons about OTC birth control pills-not feelings. Are there side effects from the pill? Yes. Are there side effects from any OTC medication? Yes. Is the pill still legal? Yes. Is it a personal decision to use it? Yes. If you do not like it, do you need to use it? No. Will there need to be more education on the pro-life side regarding the pill? Yes.
Do we really want to make a pro-life circular firing squad?
“Let us talk about the actual substantial and quantifiable pros and cons about OTC birth control pills-not feelings.”
“The pro-life movement needs to ask themselves questions regarding privacy, freedom and ugly paternalism.
If I believe in privacy and freedom, then I cannot be against the pill being OTC.”
LOL.
Dear Lrning,
What do you mean,”LOL”? If that is the best you can do in terms of the arguments I present, then you do not have anything to say that is substantial and germane.
Susan D.: You asked me for my opinion. And then you call me “patronizing” for answering you.
There is a word for that, as well. I don’t use it.
My sister is also an RN, 28 years in practice, specializing in breast feeding and breast health. She doesn’t endorse BC hormones because of the cancer risk. She’s patronizing too, I suppose.
If you do not like it, then please do not use it.
I don’t, and I don’t. But that’s not the question before us, is it?
The question is whether we should make birth control hormones much more easily accessible in our society. To answer this question, we have to ask ourselves what sort of broad impact this will have on women’s health and teenage sexual activity. That is the question that the FDA must ask before they allow it. It is not a personal decision, at all.
I answer that there will be more teenage sex, more teenage pregnancies, and more breast cancer. And so I think we should not offer birth control pills OTC, because the results will be adverse.
We already sell condoms and spermicide foams and sponges OTC. Has that helped to reduce teenage promiscuity and pregnancy? I am always willing to look at new data.
Seems to me making hormonal contraceptives available OTC would severely cut into its profit margin.
This really isn’t complicated: Planned Parenthood is a not-for-profit organization. Repeating the claim that it is for-profit ad nauseam may increase the number of people who believe it, but it will not actually make it true. Really, all the evidence one needs to understand that PP is not a for-profit organization is the fact that it supported the contraception mandate in the first place. Under the contraception mandate, the only difference between getting a prescription at the nearest pharmacy and getting one at PP is that women who go to PP will be harassed by protesters, and women who go to a pharmacy will not. Faced with a choice of being harassed or not being harassed, a lot of women are going to go to the nearest pharmacy.
This would simply alleviate the HHS Mandate mess.
Isn’t the prolife talking point du jour that oral contraceptives are a non-issue because Hobby Lobby still covers them?
It will be interesting to see how Planned Parenthood comes down on this idea.
If I remember right, Cecile Richards actually said something nice about Bobby Jindal when he went on the record supporting OTC birth control.
I’m not sure about the political aspect. I’ll have to ask my American friends whether, as members of the monolithic female voting bloc, phr33 birth control or OTC birth control is more appealing to their lady parts.
“It disturbs me greatly that so many pro-life people seem to think that an unwanted pregnancy is just desserts for an unmarried woman who has sex.”
Don’t let it disturb you then.
Start looking at ALL children as wanted gifts and maybe you will start seeing past when they were conceived.
“What do you mean,”LOL”?”
It means that I find it funny as heck that the (pro-life) person saying we should look at “actual substantial and quantifiable” pros and cons is waxing poetic about how OTC drugs impact privacy, freedom, and paternalism yet finds the quantifiable statistic that the majority of women receiving abortions are using contraception a moot point.
What substantial and quantifiable arguments have you presented? It seems your argument boils down to the pill is legal and no one is forced to use it, therefore it should be offered OTC. Sounds remarkably like the prochoice argument for abortion.
You’ve written off the entire issue of side effects with a simple “Are there side effects? Yes” You present a litany of societal ills (incompetent people, sexually undisciplined people, unwed mothers, STD’s, dysfunctional families) and conclude “All we can do as a society is try to minimize the damage. Birth control has to be available, easily and cheaply.” As if OTC bc pills can answer these problems in a way that condoms can’t. Condoms are already cheap, available OTC, with full protection of privacy, can actually prevent STD’s and have none of the health or environmental side effects of hormonal bc. Gee, we should hand out bc pills like candy.
Dear Del,
From your previous post:”Susan D: This is a boring question, but you are new here.”
What does that have to do with my opinion, being new or not? I answered that what you wrote was patronizing to me and it was-whether I am new to the forum is irrelevant. I am not calling you patronizing because you are answering me or because of your opinion-you are patronizing because somehow or another, my opinion comment is new and therefore suspect.
Since I am speaking with you, I do not consider your sister patronizing at all-I have not spoken with her.
The pill is the easiest form of birth control for sexually active women, like it or not. The other methods you mentioned are difficult to use and have a high failure rate. When dealing with a population that wants things easy and quick, unfortunately the pill is the best option-ask any OB-GYN. Do I like the situation-absolutely not. Can it be changed? Not really. When the sexual itch starts, it gets scratched, even in families where the kids have been taught to be abstinent. Try Sarah Palin, who I admire very much. I know several young women who were raised in very conservative families having babies without husbands and I bet you do, too. How many other young women have just had abortions? How can a young women get reliable birth control if she is afraid to go to the doctor to get it? Afraid that her family will find out. This privacy aspect is what is very compelling to me to allow the pill to be OTC.
Again, we are dealing with a legal substance that will continue to be legal, like it or not.
By the way, what word that you say you do not use are you talking about? Really, I do not know what in the world you are talking about.
Dear Lrning,
The majority of women having abortions were on birth control-frequently they were unable to get a prescription renewal or needed to see the MD again. Also, may have misplaced their pills. When this happens, many women would say, gee, I can’t have straight sex-might get pregnant. We are not dealing with that population. We are dealing with a group that does not want to delay pleasure and will not look at consequences of behavior. In fact, I will go so far as to say they refuse to look at consequences of their behavior. The same way with condoms-if it interferes with personal pleasure, it will not be used. Now I do not like this anymore than you do but that is the actual reality. And birth control has to be simple, cheap and easy to use.
How many more dysfunctional families need to be created because you do not want to make the pill OTC?
How many dysfunctional families will be prevented because of OTC bc pill? My guess is zero.
“frequently they were unable to get a prescription renewal or needed to see the MD again”
stats on this please.
The pill has killed women blood clots strokes…yaz has pending lawsuits. Eh so a few women died taking it. Isnt one woman too many?
Ive been in nursing since 88 and I have seen a lot of drugs recalled because they were causing death. If 10 people have died from taking Darvocet should we recall it? It was a good drug for moderate pain but it was found to be causing fatal heart problems.
“How many more dysfunctional families need to be created”
Your definition of a dysfunctional family would be what, susan d?
Oh welcome to Jill’s Place btw. You’re bound to have a hoot here!
Dysfunctional family-how about one that has to have government money to exist? Or one where the parent(singular, not plural) has severe mental illness and unable to put the child’s needs before their own. A parent addicted to drugs, etc. A family where children are molested-oh, wait-let’s place them in foster care-nothing bad will happen then, right? Praxedes, are you really serious?
If you need a definition of a dysfunctional family, just step right up to your local government benefits office or look under any bridge. Talk to your friends who are raising grandchildren because their own child is too (dare I say it?) dysfunctional to care for them. Don’t give me any song and dance about how well your friends are doing this-we all know too many who are going under.
I taught beginning nursing to teenagers-every one of them was on birth control and lamenting how difficult is was to see a doctor for new prescription. Did I like them being sexually active-no way. But without birth control, they would all be pregnant. No one used a sponge or condom-loverboy would not go along with it-very sad…
People die from Tylenol-yet they still take it. People die from antibiotics-yet they still take them. If a woman thinks that she knows what is best for her body, using the pill when sexually active, what the heck is the problem? Women die from pregnancy-why is that such a better death?
“Praxedes, are you really serious?
We are called to help children and families who need it, not act like and think we are better than them.
How many of those teens did you tell about the harmful side effects of the pill to themselves and the environment? Did you talk to them about the correlation between the bc pill and abortion? Did you find out if the male they were having sex with was an adult male? Did you tell any of these teens that they were worth waiting for? Did you tell them to stop having sex with loverboy and find out for themselves how long he would hang around? Did you contact a functional adult in their lives regarding what they were involved in? Did you point out that if loverboy wasn’t interested in marrying her, that he really just didn’t care all that much and that the pill is just reaffirming that she is his toy?
“If a woman thinks that she knows what is best for her body”
You were talking about teens not women – girls yet really. So if a girl thinks cutting herself is in her best interest, you would go along with it?
I’m having a hard time believing that you are really serious.
Dear Praxedes,
Of course, I would not go along with a girl cutting herself. I do not go along with girls starving themselves, either. However, you can talk until you are blue in the face, get them treatment for years and these girls will still cut and still starve themselves.
All the lovely things you are saying sounds good on paper.
Do you really want someone you do not know contacting you about a social behavior your child exhibits and they do not agree with? That means atheists could admonish religious people for sending their kids to church. How about a person who believes that promoting abstinence will stunt your kid’s emotional growth? Do to really want to open that door because I absolutely do not. Either the family decides this stuff or they do not. Oh yes, I can hear you-“But maybe the family doesn’t know what the daughter is doing!” Quite true. It still should stay in the confines of the family and is nobody else’s business. If the girl is buying birth control, the decision has already been made by her, even if she does not share it with her parents. I wish the parents were involved but as you know, there are many hands-off parents out there.
Privacy comes with a price-trusting other people to do what is best for their themselves, even when I disagree with it.
By the way, I discussed all the stuff you listed in the above notes with my students-they still had sex-it made no impact.
Wow. Susan d. so sorry to hear your abstinence message made no impact that is pretty sad. My experience has been totally different than yours, I have worked with lots of teens and parents over the years and have seen many teens impacted by the positive, life-affirming, true love, starting over message of saving sex for marriage and giving practical strategies in the secular and faith-based setting. Many of these young people are now grown up, attended college and are now working. I have attended their weddings, it was awesome to see them join in the God-ordained covenant of marriage with no regrets, no physical, emotional or spiritual baggage. Did all the teens listen? Of course not but “No one rises to low expectations”. I have found most young people want someone to tell them how valuable they are, how precious the gift of sexuality is and how to walk it out. I feel sorry for you that you had such a bummer experience.
http://www.abstinenceassociation.org/faqs/index.html
I did find the largest impact was made in faith-based settings where there was follow up through the young adult/college years. OTC b/c is not a solution but opens a Pandora’s box of more problems, physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually and more abortions especially for teens when “the b/c doesn’t work”. You should see the video of Carol Everett’s story (ex-abortion clinic owner) if you haven’t already, she counted on 3-5 abortions by the age of 18 for every teen they could indoctrinate to become sexually active and get on b/c. I think it is on her website and on Pro-Life Action Leagues website. “Throwing the baby out with the bath water” is pretty much what I think this approach will accomplish with more dead babies and more walking wounded post-abortive women along with the chemical damage from contraceptives, abortifacients, and physical damage from abortions. All the problems of less poverty, less child abuse, were supposed to be solved by making abortion “safe, legal and rare”, we know how that turned out, only the “legal” part came true.
“Do you really want someone you do not know contacting you about a social behavior your child exhibits and they do not agree with?”
Yup. Bring it. Two of my three are now adults and none of them are angels but if anyone has heartfelt concerns, I would encourage them to call me. In fact, I’ve had others do just that and I’ve done the same.
“No one rises to low expectations” This is worth repeating. Thanks for the comments Prolifer L! The abstinence message may not be caught by each young person but they may be the ones who go on to teach others what they wished they had followed in their younger years! ;)
Thanks Praxedes. The quote “No one rises to low expectations” is not mine, I believe it is from Les Brown who was/is a motivational speaker I heard years ago and yes it is worth repeating. The stats are showing decreases in sexually active teens, pregnancies, abortions, teen parents, especially through age 17. That is something to shout about and to praise our kids about, they can do this they are not a bunch of animals but valuable, intelligent and capable with the help of caring parents and adults. Now we need the abstinence message to continue past age 17 and especially to our college age young people.
Dear Praxedes,
So you would like another unknown adult to contact you regarding how you are raising your own children? You can say “bring it” all you want until you run afoul of liberals who want to prevent you from raising your kids the way you want. You have far greater faith in people and the government than I do. Quite bluntly, if you do not like what people are doing with their children (unless they are breaking the law)stay away from them!!!
How nice that you were able to get the abstinence message across. As you stated, this was in a faith base setting. Why not try a public school and see how far it goes. That was the place I was teaching.
As I stated before, we are not dealing with the population you did-kids willing to be in a faith-based setting. We are dealing with abandoned teens, mentally ill people, victims of violence and molestation. As you know, frequently these
unfortunate people act in really goofy ways to their own detriment, especially with sexual behavior. Give them the same privacy and freedom everyone else gets
Dear susan d,
If someone thought my child was in harm’s way or causing harm to another(s), why would I not want to be contacted? If someone thinks chastity and church attendance is harmful to teens, I’d welcome the conversation. I’ve been contacted by adults regarding stupid things my children have done and appreciated their concern; on the flip side, I have not been contacted regarding a few things that I feel adults should have let me know about. I also regret the times that I haven’t gotten involved and should have.
“kids willing to be in a faith-based setting”
LOL. What is the percentage of kids that are in the faith-based setting by choice? Most of them are there because their parents “strongly suggest” it is in their best interest to attend. The ones that are there by choice are way ahead of the game.
“We are dealing with abandoned teens, mentally ill people, victims of violence and molestation”
What? These folks don’t have the ability to learn?
Dear Praxedes,
The kids could run away and absolutely refuse to go. Showing up to a faith-based site, even by parents’ insistence is still a choice, made by them.
Please go to a homeless shelter, community mental health facility or where the kids are shooting up drugs. They may have the ability to learn but it is a long shot to change any of these behaviors. Sex is the one thing that will most likely NOT be given up. If a kid is developmentally delayed, having sex makes them appear more average. If a person is using drugs, then it is currency. If a someone is mentally ill, controls to behavior frequently go out the window; bi-polar kids frequently do not want to take their medication because they like the manic feeling and it is not unusual for them to be sexually precocious. Treating this is extraordinarily difficult.
Please do not think that I like saying this-it is not fun. I wish everyone could control these very basic urges. Can people change their behavior? Sure, if they want to-big challenge.
How many people need to lose weight? Everyone knows how to lose weight. So why don’t overweight people lose weight? Because pleasure must be given up; because a need is being met to remain overweight; because people just do not want to do it.
I do not think that people are going to give up sex when they cannot even lose 10 pounds which is really quite a bit easier. Does this mean that some people cannot lose weight? Of course not. But they really need to want to do it. Same with controlling sexual behavior. The person needs to see the advantages of abstinence and monogamy.
“What? These folks don’t have the ability to learn?”
Many do not have the ability to learn. Their brains have been cooked by God-knows-what drugs; some may be the victims of fetal alcohol syndrome; others just go with the path of least resistance for acceptance of a group because of family abandonment. I do not like it either but that is the population.
It is great that the teens you interfaced with had caring parents who obviously wanted their children to understand the power sex would have in their lives and helping them to not be hurt by it. Many do not have parents like them. Those people are the ones that have to be included in the picture, too.
“They may have the ability to learn but it is a long shot to change any of these behaviors.”
Long shots are worth taking. What challenge is there in the close shots?
As far as bi-polar in kids: “Ian Goodyer is a professor of child and adolescent psychiatry at Cambridge University. He – like practically every neurologist and child psychiatrist operating outside the U.S., and a great many within the U.S. – simply doesn’t believe that childhood bi-polar disorder exists. Which is odd, given that huge numbers of American children under seven are currently being diagnosed with it.” From the book “The Psychopath Test” by Jon Ronson. It goes on from here but we are selling our youth short on all counts and many people are making big bucks in the process.
I’m sorry that you don’t believe that ALL children can learn and master self-control. We need to start when they are young — before drugs cook their brains (legal and illegal drugs btw.) We need to be the family for those who have been abandoned and we need to help those that mess up make life-affirming decisions not pump them full of more harmful drugs.
Public schools are teaching children the importance of weight control at elementary levels. I hope they are not telling students that if they choose not to eat healthy, they can always pop a diet pill.
What agenda is keeping schools from teaching children about the importance of controlling other choices until they are ready to start a family?
You are absolutely right-I do not believe all children can learn self-control. All adults cannot master self-control, either. Look at the scandals in our churches. Where are these perfect people with the wonderful self-control? When you find them, say “hi” from me. Maybe you can send them to our churches where they can advise everyone. The words “Christian arrogance” comes to mind…
What about the other mental illnesses kids can have? Depression, for one-that really is a REAL mental illness, right? Or is there another doctor you can quote stating that this condition does not exist? Oh, wait-can’t pump those brains full of drugs, either. Maybe they can just kill themselves while we wait for their self-control.
How does your words of being the family to the abandoned actually help? What are you doing besides sermonizing? What about if they feel just great being sexually active and do not want your help-do you respect their privacy or continue with invading their boundaries?
Susan d, you have only argued hypothetical and anecdotal stories. Where are your “actual substantial and quantifiable” arguments for OTC bc pills?
Looks to me like you’ve backed yourself into a corner. You identified the population you think OTC bc applies to as “incompetent” people that “refuse to look at consequences of their behavior”. What makes you think that population would purchase any birth control at all? Why do you feel confident that that population would not only purchase OTC bc pills, but would actually take their pill at approximately the same time each day, even if days (weeks, months) separate sexual encounters? You feel more confident that they will follow a daily protocol rather than utilize a barrier method that requires far less pre-planning and can be used only when needed? And you’ve yet to actually address the health and environmental risks. Sounds like the population you’ve identified isn’t going to be getting regular healthcare and may not be aware if bc pills are contra-indicated for them. You don’t care about that? Strange, for a nurse.
The words “dumbing down” comes to mind…
I agree with you Learning and Praxedes about “dumbing down”.
I have lots of close relatives who were/are public school teachers and they talked about how ludicrous it is to expect that teens would take contraceptives correctly, the same time each day and roll on a condom correctly EVERY TIME they have sex and teachers could not even get some students to remember to bring a pencil or paper or more importantly a textbook to class with them every day. Duh???
The question being asked is if the pill should be sold OTC.Yes or no. I believe yes. Whether or not it is bought or not bought, used or not used, it is available and everyone else gets out of the decision making and makes it private. Have things been “dumbed down”? You bet they have. I do not like this either but that is the society we have.
Most of the responses to my writing seem to be against any type of hormonal birth control. Unless something else comes down the pike, the pill is here for a long time, side effects or no. Exactly how much knowledge regarding side effects, etc. do the users need to have before you will allow them to use it? Will they need to take a test? What is the difference between you and any other well-intentioned busybody?
As long as you or your children are not taking this stuff, what right do you have to stop anyone else?
susan d. we did work with public schools and secular organizations also (some were at-risk teen programs) and found those teens were starved for the abstinence message of value, goal-setting, self-worth and restraint that saving sex for marriage brings. Most were glad to hear the message, said they planned to start over and had never heard the message before in a practical, positive way. We just could not follow up with them over the long term. I have occasionally ran into some of them years later who told me the message helped them.
I would encourage concerned adults and parents who want to find high quality, well researched, evidence-based abstinence curriculums to go to http://www.ampartnership.org where they offer 4 different secular curriculums for middle school and high school students and 1 faith-based curriculum for all ages. I am not ready to give up on our kids, the needs are too great, their lives are at risk and they are our future. The Obama administration has done everything they can to cut out abstinence programs and promote PP, although the CDC Youth Surveillance Reports show dramatic declines in sexual activity teen pregnancies and abortions compared to the 1990s. Unfortunately by the time he leaves office we may lose all of the declines in these numbers (it will take a few years to see the results of promoting so-called “safe sex” b/c, condoms and alternative lifestyles). PP can’t make money off of teens saving sex only off of pills, shots, STD treatments, IUDs, dental dams, condoms and abortions when the birth control fails.
Dear Prolifer L,
That is wonderful that you were able to get the message across to those teens and had such success. Most were glad to hear the message-not all. Did any of them still have sex? Of course they did…
Did those kids still need birth control-yes.
“I do not like this either but that is the society we have.”
Be the change you want to see in the world. If you realize the pill is harmful to females, nature, and society and agree that young people have been dumbed-down but still support the pill because it is the easiest route, you are a hypocrite.
Any thing learned, can be unlearned.
The polls are showing that We the People are unlearning to worship Obama.
“Did those kids still need birth control”
I think you are confused about needs and wants. No one needs the pill. No one needs to have sex. Choices.
Children should not be prescribed or sold birth control.
What in the name of heck makes you think that I worship Obama?
I am a hypocrite? Oh, yeah-because I see people having sex and not choosing to be chaste? Of course, no babies will come-we will all hold hands and sing kumbaya instead.
The problem is not me-it is you and the constant paternalistic, I-know-better-than-you how to live your life. How are you any better than Obabma and his constant meddling into peoples private lives?
What alternative universe do you inhabit? No one needs to have sex-but most people do whether or not you approve.
Please do not go to any doctor’s office of hospital-you might be treated by doctors and nurses who think like me and then you will be a hypocrite for accepting their care. Surely you do not want to sully that holy person of yourself with people like me-goodness, you would be polluted-can’t let that happen.
susan d,
You have a lot of passion and really want to alleviate or avoid as much suffering as practically possible. I respect that. However, you seem to be angry that some good people have come to different conclusions from you about OTC b/c. Do you understand where they are coming from…I mean they are educated professionals who have thought deeply about this and have years of experience. Many have dedicated their whole careers or lives to these problems. They have solid reasons for seeing free and ubiquitous b/c as putting gas on a fire. Especially among the vulnerable groups you have described.
Whether any drug is prescription or OTC or whatever it ought to be based on medical evidence alone. Drugs that can be dangerous, misused, contraindicated, etc. ought to be by prescription. Especially when there are other safer barrier methods available OTC.
Here is your challenge:
1) After all these years, what has changed to make hormonal contraception safer and without need medical oversight. Or is the exercise of medical judgment in general just being paternalistic?
2) Please explain how OTC b/c pills are going to decrease the abortion rate or advance respect for women in society.
It is going to take facts and figures to change minds.
Dear Tommy R,
I am not angry at all. Just for the record, I am an educated professional who has been in the trenches and thought about this, too-I was the one teaching teens in a public setting for years. The question is about making the pill OTC. The answers I am getting seem to be about not having any hormone-based birth control. If we want to avoid having to pay for other women’s birth control, making the pill OTC will really make things private and I do not have to pay for it.
Every drug sold over the counter can be misused and has side effects that can really hurt you, including ibuprophen (kidney damage),aspirin(bleeding)and Tylenol(liver damage). All of them have contraindications and yet people still use them, probably the same people responding to me.
The hormones in the pill have been drastically reduced compared to when it came out originally. Are there side effects-I absolutely agree. The goal for me is to reduce women getting pregnant which the pill does do, like it or not.
Medical judgment can certainly be paternalistic. If a man needed to see a doctor when he needed new condoms, how frequently would he go? Would he just have sex without them? The answer-yes.
How does one possibly measure respect for women? If a woman uses the pill, does that automatically mean she is sexually loose? And even if she is, should we judge her? So advancing respect for women in society means-what? Having no sex? Being chaste? How do we define this? If an unmarried woman is sexually active, is stoning the answer? Please do not speak to me about talking to her about her sex life-it is really no one else’s business!!! Unless, of course, you want people nosing into your affairs, too.
“What in the name of heck makes you think that I worship Obama?”
Not sure why you thought I was talking about you specifically. I didn’t frame it that way at all. Polls are showing people are starting to see Obama as the worst president in history. I was trying to point out that large groups of people can change their minds from what they used to believe and think on subjects like abortion and bc pills.
“Of course, no babies will come-we will all hold hands and sing kumbaya instead.”
Babies will come. Holding hands and singing would be a better route than making women believe that babies are the absolute worst thing in the world. Babies will come. So what? Try to celebrate that fact rather than seeing children in a negative light. Women have been having “unplanned” children since the beginning of time. Look at all children as a gift rather than as a hindrance and help those who need it. Start holding fathers accountable, too.
“Surely you do not want to sully that holy person of yourself with people like me-goodness, you would be polluted-can’t let that happen.”
Do you talk to everyone who has a different opinion than you like this? I’m not thinking it makes patients feel real comfortable and safe expressing their thoughts around you if you do. I’ve had medical personnel talk to me like I am an idiot. The last time I was pregnant the female doctor asked me what I had been using for birth control and what I would be using in the future. She just assumed that my husband and I had not wanted to get pregnant at our ages (we were pushing 40) and that we believed in birth control. I didn’t argue with her, I just never went back to her and have recommended her to no one. I was also pressured to abort one of my children by medical staff because I have a uterine cyst — still have the child, still have the cyst.
Maybe it’s you who think people like me will pollute you.
I am sorry if you took offense to my post susan d. I did not intend to offend you or anyone. I am glad that you are not angry but you do seem defensive. Believe me, I never treat young people like they are “sluts” or “loose” if they are using b/c or are sexually active, I have made enough mistakes in my own life and I also know teens would not receive what I say if talked down to them, I give my message out of a heart of love and concern for them and their future, I think most of them discern that. Many have told me “thank you” after being given the message but I know some do not receive or follow the message, my job is to give the message. God has to touch their hearts.
I do get your point that it may seem like offering OTC b/c would reduce unplanned pregnancies because there would be less stigma and obstacles also cheaper to purchase them OTC but I believe there would be many short and long term consequences. I think it gives a false sense of security and the emotional and spiritual consequences can be worse that the physical consequences.
I will be praying for you. Take care.
“Please do not speak to me about talking to her about her sex life-it is really no one else’s business!”
Now see, this is the opposite of what you said earlier which was, “I discussed all the stuff you listed in the above notes with my students.”
I think you were sending your student’s mixed messages. Either that or you are being less than truthful here.
“If a man needed to see a doctor when he needed new condoms, how frequently would he go? Would he just have sex without them?”
I am staying out of this conversation but for the love of pearl this is a terrible analogy. Condoms are not medications, don’t have health risks in and of themselves besides the rare latex allergy, and do not have contraindications with any medications that I’m aware of. It’s ridiculous, even as an analogy it doesn’t work. I get you’re trying to make your point, that people will have sex regardless sometimes, but you seem to be missing the point that the people that are arguing with you actually do have a point. Hormonal contraceptives are medications, we can debate whether they need to fall into OTC or prescription meds, but the fact remains that they are medications and have different risks involved than barrier methods.
You can’t even compare it to vasectomies, really, because they are outpatient one-day procedures with one follow up a couple months later, and don’t require any medical supervision after this, in general.
If that holy grail male birth control ever comes on the market, you’ll see the same type of objections to having it OTC and available to teens from the people you’re arguing with. The same people wouldn’t want teen boys exposed to health risks they may not understand either.
I’m fine with adults accessing stuff like hormonal contraceptives and certain other medications (like albuterol, seriously asthmatics without insurance have a rough time getting their LIFE SAVING medication and there are few health risks having it OTC), but you’re arguing with people about kids, and kinda missing the point with your analogies.
Oh, and like people have mentioned hormonal contraceptives have been causing a lot of environmental issues. A lot. I’m not saying that people shouldn’t be able to access them, but it’s not a minor issue and they are only getting worse. So that’s something to think about as well, we took CFC inhalers off the market entirely (which nearly killed a couple asthmatics I know, because they couldn’t afford the environmentally safe HFA inhalers) because of the environmental effects, and that’s a LIFE SAVING medication. The environmental issues are not moot.
Susan d:
Stoning? Get real. Are you are just being derogatory or what? All that BS does not apply to me or any one I even know. It makes you sound like a troll. Nobody wants to waste time with what seems to be a lot of wacky vitriol.
“The goal for me is to reduce women getting pregnant which the pill does do, like it or not.”
What?! “like it or not” Why would anyone “not like” women avoiding a crisis pregnancy.
Avoiding a crisis pregnancy is the general goal everyone has. The question before us is…does having OTC hormonal contraception reduce the crisis pregnancy rate. I believe that it would raise the crisis pregnancy rate. Many women already have a false sense of protection. How would having even less medical instruction in its use improve things? Not that people couldn’t find out on their own…it is just that teens and other vulnerable women would be less likely to use it properly without a prescription and some oversight. And if the family doctor does not know if you are on it or not it can complicate other medical issues. There are a lot of good medical reasons why it has been prescription since forever.
Susan, I am not really trying to change your mind…so I am not that motivated…but here is an anecdote your can check out for yourself:
A number of years back PP got into some trouble and had to close all 19 facilities that they ran in West Texas. In the following years the teen birth rate and the teen abortion rate both fell significantly. The teen STD rate fell and the age of first sexual encounter rose. This all happened simultaneously in all the cities of West Texas, but did not happen in East Texas. PP’s pullout from west Texas did not solve all the problems, but it does show that the absence of a major b/c provider and sex educator to teens actually improved the social condition. (Let’s not lose sight of parents, teen culture, and other influences.)
When teens are guided toward a better path most take it. When teens are not guided toward self-destructive paths most stay off of them. That is not paternalism…its intelligent effective freedom-loving social policy.
Del, the CDC and the American Cancer Society disagree with you about second hand smoke
http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancercauses/tobaccocancer/secondhand-smoke
http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/secondhand_smoke/health_effects/
I’m going to go with their assessment of the evidence and literature, no offense (though your resume is impressive!).
If anyone thinks they can smoke in a car or house with kids I would have a lot to say to them, no matter how much they love their pipe or cigarette. Kill yourself slowly if you please (I’m certainly doing so, lol), but denying that second hand smoke hurts others is irresponsible, selfish, and incredibly weird given the health problems that have been documented from the practice.
Other places and organizations (that have looked into the research and seen the effects themselves) that agree about second hand smoke are the Mayo Clinic, the Cleveland Clinic, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Medical Association, the WHO, the NIH, and literally every other medical association, organization, hospital, etc. I mean, come on man. I don’t get some people sometimes. You’ll insist over and over that pills cause abortions even when there’s little to no evidence that supports a post-fertilization mechanism, especially for one or two shot pills like Ella or Plan B, but you’ll deny second hand smoke danger of all things?
You confuse me Del.
Hi Jack. Thank you for getting the point. We are talking about kids here not adults. I would not be happy about chemical male OTC b/c drugs because of the potential consequences, contraindications, side effects, long term effects along with physical, emotional and spiritual consequences to teens and kids. I have talked to some teen guys they were wounded by early sexual activity by older women and need spiritual and emotional healing. Everyone tries to assume guys don’t get hurt, yes they do, and the scars can affect them the rest of their life and even affect their marriages later on.
And I may not agree about Ella or Plan B but do agree about the second hand smoke issue.
Take care. God’s blessings to you and the kids. I will pray that you quit smoking too.
Dear Tommy,
I am not, nor have I ever been a troll.
Of course the stoning comment was rhetorical. If you read the responses from Praxedes and ProLifer L, they seem to feel very comfortable confronting people and their behavior, not respecting their privacy.
“Do you really want someone you do not know contacting you about a social behavior your child exhibits and they do not agree with?” One of them said “bring it!”
How far do we go injecting ourselves into the most private parts of our lives? One of the reasons I hate Obamacare is the intrusive nature of it and demanding personal information. How are we any better if we insist that we know better than everyone else how to live their lives?
Again, for me as a pro-life libertarian, privacy and freedom must take precedence over everything else otherwise my freedom and privacy will be next on the chopping block.
Dear Praxedes,
“Now see, this is the opposite of what you said earlier which was, “I discussed all the stuff you listed in the above notes with my students.”
I think you were sending your student’s mixed messages. Either that or you are being less than truthful here.”
You discussed giving classes-were you paid? Are you a medical professional? Could you be sued, lose a license? Or was this a nice voluntary position with no real standing?
Let me explain how this works. I teach a nursing class to students; we discuss birth control, answer questions, debate pros and cons, including the very same problems you mentioned. I sign my name (with the letters R.N. after it) to very student’s record that this subject has been covered. Then I have no alternative than to let them make the decision and RESPECT their privacy. If I do not respect their privacy, decisions and boundaries, I will lose my license. I respect your privacy, decisions and boundaries, too. Once you become an registered nurse, you can come on over and tell me how it should be done.
Let me tell you what I am seeing from the majority of responders:
1. There should be no legal hormonal based birth control
2. No teen should have access to birth control
3. Only married women should have birth control
The question has been changed from should birth control pills be sold OTC to should birth control pills be legal at all?
correction to above:
The question has been changed from should birth control pills be sold OTC or should birth control pills be legal at all?
Okay I am going to explain you a thing here susan d. You are arguing with Catholics about birth control. They are morally and ethically against it, and always will be. Some of your frustrations might be eased if you realize that there are certain things that people cannot bend on because of their beliefs, and for Catholics one of those is that birth control is wrong. Period, the end. You will never convince me its okay to eat meat or animal test, you will never convince them the pill is a positive thing. Cut your losses is my suggestion.
Susan d,
I don’t think you are a troll, but at times you do sound like one. You seem to make wrong assumptions about other peoples motives and beliefs. Like I think adults ought to be able to have conversations about their children’s behavior…I say “bring it on” too…why do you assume I am uncomfortable with anything?
And what gives you the right to change the question? You know there are not very many who want to ban, with the force of law, hormonal contraceptives. Mostly anti-contraception people want better information so people can make fully informed choices of their own free will with their doctor, pastor, and spouse as they may apply. And banning abortion causing drugs.
If you are going to oppose and critique others the least you can do is portray their positions right…otherwise you are fighting a straw man.
You know, I noticed that you put your privacy and your freedom above everything…does that not put you at the center of the universe?
Let me be clear: most American prolife Catholics aren’t interested in making hormonal contraceptives illegal for non- Catholics. They want other Catholics to follow the teachings of their own religion.
Wow. susan d.LOL boy oh boy you sure make a lot of assumptions about people just because they do not agree with you about OTC b/c. I would not laud the title of being a RN over people as being a defining criteria for being an effective educator although the nursing profession has afforded me lots of professional and charitable volunteer opportunities for many years (btw there are quite a few RNs who post on this blog including Jill), it is not a good idea to use having a nursing license to put down others for their beliefs and opinions. That is not what makes me or any other person an effective educator, communicator and change agent. I have never found “listen to me I am a nurse” to be a good way to have a civil discourse or to change peoples minds. I won’t waste my time addressing your assumptions and accusations about me and my stands on b/c. I am not Catholic but a strong proponent of encouraging people to save sexual activity for marriage. Your 3 assumptions would not be correct about me I would not agree with outlawing all b/c for adults or teens or married couples nor would I consider prohibiting premarital sex a workable solution. Any hormone, drug or chemical ingested or injected to interrupt normal reproductive cycles and function should be prescribed by a qualified HCP after a complete H&P, medical exam and full explanation of benefits and risks. I am going to get some rest now and I highly recommend you do the same, sometimes it helps.
susan d., What is the name of the class you teach? What age group do you teach? Do you have a teaching degree and a nursing degree? Is this a required or an elective class? I’m asking because I’m curious if the schools in my area have a class that is similar.
“Or was this a nice voluntary position with no real standing?”
I wouldn’t teach what I teach if it were a paid position because “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.” -Sinclair
As far as if my class has standing or not, it depends on who you ask. I think you have made it clear what you think of it but that’s okay. I believe I am doing what Jesus wants me to and it is He I most want to please.
Young people need and want to hear the truth. They want to know you are really concerned about what is best for them and that you are not just there for a paycheck or are worried about losing a license or have an agenda to push. I believe most people RESPECT true heartfelt concern.
“most American prolife Catholics aren’t interested in making hormonal contraceptives illegal for non- Catholics. They want other Catholics to follow the teachings of their own religion.”
Unfortunately, this is probably true. Hormonal contraceptives can kill the preborn so prolife Catholics should want to save preborn life. Life begins at conception. susan d, do you tell your students when life begins and that hormonal birth control can kill preborn humans?
If you are Catholic and using or thinking about using birth control, take the time to learn about why your religion opposes it. If you are not Catholic, take the time to think about how harmful hormonal contraception has been to women and the unborn, society, and the environment.
Dear Prolifer l,
I am not putting down your beliefs at all. There is a difference between teaching an accredited class and a volunteer class with no actual credit. Praxedes stated that I gave mixed messages to my students who were taught in a public setting, getting college credit. That is different from an unaccredited volunteer class with volunteer students and volunteer teachers. An accredited class has a syllabus that must be followed for credit to be given.
“That is different from an unaccredited volunteer class”
Yup. Both you and the students will financially benefit by being in your class. See Sinclair quote above.
The children are still choosing to be in your class though. After all, they could run away. ;)
Parents please get to know your children’s teachers — and their health care providers.
“An accredited class has a syllabus that must be followed for credit to be given.”
Does your syllabus include telling students that life begins at conception and that hormonal birth control can kill that human life?
Dear Praxedes,
I taught the certified nurse aide class at our local junior college. This is a beginning nurses class and is necessary to pass if you want to be a registered nurse or licensed practical nurse. I taught several years to high schoolers-this was presented as part of vocational training. If the students pass the class,they are eligible to take the state test to be CNAs. I also taught the class to anybody who signed up for it, teens and adults.
Junior colleges that teach this class usually offer nursing degrees.
If this is a voluntary position, then you cannot be fired; there is no real financial loss in your life, is there? You can pretty much say whatever you wish and more power to you. I do not know if you are employed but for most of us, there are boundaries we cannot cross and keep our jobs. It does not sound like you work, otherwise I highly doubt that you would be so cavalier about this.
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it” -What in the world does that mean? Evidently you have little use for paid educators. Are you not pushing a pro-life agenda? Since I do not believe like you, do I not show heartfelt concern?
I also believe that I am doing what Jesus wants me to do. You haven’t cornered the market on that.
Dear Praxedes,
I did state what I felt when life began when I was teaching. I did instruct on the pill and hormonal effects.
So if I make money from teaching, something is wrong?
So is going to a Sunday school class taught by volunteers the same as taking a class for college credit that is paid for by the individual?
Does your syllabus include telling students that life begins at conception and that hormonal birth control can kill that human life?
“I also believe that I am doing what Jesus wants me to do.”
Do your students know this?
“I did state what I felt when life began when I was teaching.”
Nurses (and teachers) of all people should know when — not ‘feel’ when — life begins. There isn’t a grey area.
Fact: Life begins at conception. Hormonal bc kills human life.
Even some lowly unpaid volunteers realize this.
Dear Praxedes,
Answer the question:
“So is going to a Sunday school class taught by volunteers the same as taking a class for college credit that is paid for by the individual?”
“Parents please get to know your children’s teachers — and their health care providers.” And do what? Suppose the nurse supports abortion. Should you demand another one? Suppose none are around?
Dear Tommy,
Sorry I missed reading your last entry. I have no faith in strangers butting in your family’s own business especially how you raise your children. Note the word “strangers”, not friends or neighbors. Praxedes was wondering if I would contact any of my sexually active students’ families about the kids behavior. When I conducted the class, we had a rule that what was stated in the classroom pretty much stayed in the classroom. Where their exceptions? Yes-when one student was being beaten to a pulp by her relative. Why was there a breach of classroom privacy? Because a law was broken (that kid was removed from the home). Teens can be sexually active after certain ages, different in each state. All the student I taught were of the age of consent. No law was broken.
If you are OK with this, strangers insisting how to live your family’s life, fine and dandy-I am not. Why would you want strangers to do this? Oh, yeah-you can minister. Or maybe your child is removed because some do-gooder does not like how you dress him or that you go hunting with him(just examples-I do not know if you go hunting). I find that usually do-gooders can always find a reason to make a family look like it has done something, anything wrong. Make no mistake, anytime you open a door for Uncle Sam to walk through, he will. He will also stay and demand for you to pay his room and board.
“You know, I noticed that you put your privacy and your freedom above everything…does that not put you at the center of the universe?”
Wasn’t that what the Hobby Lobby decision was all about? wasn’t it about freedom to practice your religion? Freedom for privacy? Not being forced to financially that which you find against your religion? My religion and privacy are just as important as yours-I will give that up because you think that I am obviously too vocal about it.
The country was built on freedom and privacy-it cannot be denied to others because they don’t think like me. The greatest bulwark against the state is the individual–take away freedom and privacy and everything goes with it.
It does not put me at the center of the universe; Jesus is.
“All the student I taught were of the age of consent.”
Why didn’t you didn’t you state this from the get go? There is also an agenda that has lowered the age of consent. Parents are responsible for your actions until you are 18 except when you want to pump yourself full of abortion-causing hormones? Can’t get a tatoo or vote but you can abort your child? There’s those MIXED MESSAGES you support sending to teens.
“And do what? Suppose the nurse supports abortion. Should you demand another one? Suppose none are around?”
Look at it as a teachable moment and make your best attempt to teach the educated professional. ;) Sometimes prolife students and volunteers can teach you a thing or two yourself if you’re willing to learn! Like when Life begins for example.
“As I stated before, we are not dealing with the population you did-kids willing to be in a faith-based setting. We are dealing with abandoned teens, mentally ill people, victims of violence and molestation”
FYI. Some teens in faith-based settings have been abandoned, are mentally ill and have been victims of violence and molestation. So there’s that.
“It does not put me at the center of the universe; Jesus is.”
Are you free to say this in your hormone contraceptive-pushing class?
“When I conducted the class, we had a rule that what was stated in the classroom pretty much stayed in the classroom.”
Sounds like a rule an abuser or molester would have in my opinion.
You win, Praxedes. Obviously, I must be an abuser or molester.
I sure hope you are not an abuser or molester.
But why would you have a rule that what is stated in a classroom must stay there? I need clarification or else it does sound like you could have something to cover up.
What would you think if a priest taught a class and had this rule?
Priests have confessionals.
Support groups have confidentiality rules. Healthcare workers have HIPAA. Could be along those lines.
When I went to AA it was not cool at all to share anything outside of the group. At all.
I’m talking about what would susan d think if a priest taught a similar class (health related) to the same age group and told the class “What is said here, stays here.”
Sorry I should have clarified that I was talking about health-related classes, not confessionals or AA meetings.
Praxedes,
Because of something you have no concept about: PRIVACY and CONFIDENTIALITY!!!
The medical profession requires privacy and confidentiality. When you go to the doctor, none of the workers can talk about this outside of the office; if your daughter goes to PP for BCP, the workers cannot post it on Facebook.
When I was teaching the students, I would use experiences that I had encountered in my decades of nursing; some of students could know the patients I was discussing-everything had to remain in the classroom to protect the patient’s privacy. The students would express their opinions also and frequently their own experiences which was also kept in the classroom.
You do not need to go to a priest; you frequently do need to see a physician and their staff. They have to be trained in privacy and confidentiality.
I am sooooooooooooooooooooo glad that you hope that I am not an abuser or molester.
But do not worry, Praxedes, you win. Really, I quit.
Susan d,
I think we probably have a lot more common ground on the freedom and privacy issue than is coming through on these posts. I rate it up there as one of the really important foundational things myself. Governmental intrusion into what should be entirely private is one of rotten things about Obamacare. And there should be some level of confidences between some offices, like between teacher and student or between employee and employer. However, I don’t think we, as a society, should be so private that individuals (even strangers) can’t talk to one another freely and with due respect about just about anything. And if someone clearly does not want to talk or is not interested in the topic or views that should be respected as well. I have respectfully declined to talk about certain things with certain people lots of times.
You made the following statement it in a way that struck me as kind of absolute:
“for me as a pro-life libertarian, privacy and freedom must take precedence over everything else”
You are stating that your individual need for privacy and freedom are your highest priority. Above even Jesus. Above life itself. Above every other need of everyone else.
How does such a statement not place you and your concerns at the center of your universe? It just sounds like you are caught up in your own world.
“The medical profession requires privacy and confidentiality.”
I thought we were talking about teaching underage students. There would be no reason to use the actual names of people who were once patients nor should you tell students to keep silent about what you or they are discussing. No underage student should expect nor be taught that what they talk about in class regarding themselves or others is private and confidential. Telling kids this may lead them to think you have something to hide and only divides children from others who may disagree with what you are teaching.
“You do not need to go to a priest; you frequently do need to see a physician and their staff. They have to be trained in privacy and confidentiality.”
You do not need to go to a nurse/teacher who tells you to keep quiet about what goes on in her class either.
I wasn’t trying to win; I’m just a volunteer who noticed a teachable moment and took it. Jesus be with you, susan d.
“You do not need to go to a priest; you frequently do need to see a physician”
Actually, if one is a member of his church you do need to go to a priest…often frequently. Personally, if I had to choose between never going to a doctor and never seeing a priest…I would choose the priest and take my chances with an early death.
Ok susan d. I get your point about following a syllabus with CNA students and have had experience following curriculums and a syllabus myself over the years teaching different types of classes to adults, parents, and teens. When I am giving the abstinence message to teens or young adults in the secular or community setting I am well aware of not crossing the line into religious areas because it is not appropriate there. There are plenty of physical, economic, emotional, social, mental and educational benefits to saving sex for marriage that are documented by the research so it does not change my central message about the safest, healthiest lifestyle. If I am presenting abstinence in the faith-based setting I can comfortably discuss spiritual benefits, give spiritual strategies and encourage youth in their faith walk. The young people in either setting may still decide to risk being involved with sexual activity, afterall it is their decision. It is still risky even if they use b/c, they get to choose risk reduction or risk elimination. Hopefully that make sense. Probably neither of us will change each other’s mind about OTC b/c but thanks for the discourse I’m done. Take care.