New York Times article on Obama/Born Alive
Read entire article on page 2. Note again, as I noted on the Associated Press article and in my talking points post, Obama surrogates are attempting to mash reasons – particularly Born Alive’s companion bills – into his new excuse for not voting for Born Alive. But these were always separate bills with separate bill numbers and separate votes. One did not hinge upon the other’s passage.
New York Times, today:
![]()
Abortion, a familiar issue in elections past, has again emerged in recent days as a focus of controversy. Senator Barack Obama is coming under intense fire from anti-abortion groups because of the position he took as an IL state senator on legislation regarding the status of fetuses that survive abortion procedures….
Both Mr. Obama and his critics agree that, as chairman of the Health and Human Services Committee in the state legislature in 2003, he led efforts to defeat a bill called the Born Alive Infants Protection Act. But they disagree about virtually every other aspect of the legislation, from its meaning and purpose to the breadth of its application.
The recent controversy erupted after an interview Mr. Obama, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, gave to the Christian Broadcasting Network on Saturday night, immediately following his televised question-and-answer session with the Rev. Rick Warren at Saddleback Church in CA. Asked about the legislation, Mr. Obama said, “here’s a situation where folks are lying” when they say he has misrepresented his position.
In 2002, President Bush signed a federal “born alive” law. The measure passed by sweeping majorities in Congress, with the support of many legislators who usually vote against legislation favored by groups seeking to overturn Roe v. Wade…. Even organizations like [NARAL] did not oppose the bill.
Mr. Obama has repeatedly said that he would have been willing to vote for such a measure in IL had it been identical to the federal statute. But “that was not the bill that was presented at the state level,” he said Saturday. “What that bill also was doing was trying to undermine Roe v. Wade.”
The statute Congress passed in 2002 and the one the IL committee rejected a year later are virtually identical.… or induced labor, cesarean section or induced abortion.”
That has led Mr. Obama’s critics to accuse him of playing fast and loose with the truth when he says he “would have been completely in, fully in support of the federal bill that everybody supported” if it had been offered at the state level.
“I don’t know whether he is lying or whether he forgot, but with his words, he is condemning himself, ” said Jill Stanek, a nurse in the Chicago area who was a main proponent of the federal measure and writes an anti-abortion blog. “He voted one way and then covered it up, and he has to explain that, not just to me, but to the American people.”
But the Illinois proposal always had a companion bill….
In his remarks Saturday, Mr. Obama took a lawyerly approach, appearing to refer to the entire package of abortion-related bills regularly submitted to the IL legislature, not only to the 2003 definitional bill. His critics, however, said that was a smoke screen.
“Obama confuses these bills, which were entirely separate,” Douglas Johnson, legislative director of the National Right to Life Committee, said. “They had sequential numbers, but they were not in any way linked. To call them a package is a tactic to try to reach out and grab issues in an attempt to divert attention from this one.”
New York Times
Obama’s 2003 Stand on Abortion Draws New Criticism in 2008
By Larry Rochter
August 19, 2008
Abortion, a familiar issue in elections past, has again emerged in recent days as a focus of controversy. Senator Barack Obama is coming under intense fire from anti-abortion groups because of the position he took as an Illinois state senator on legislation regarding the status of fetuses that survive abortion procedures.
Both Mr. Obama and his critics agree that, as chairman of the Health and Human Services Committee in the state legislature in 2003, he led efforts to defeat a bill called the Born Alive Infants Protection Act. But they disagree about virtually every other aspect of the legislation, from its meaning and purpose to the breadth of its application.
The recent controversy erupted after an interview Mr. Obama, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, gave to the Christian Broadcasting Network on Saturday night, immediately following his televised question-and-answer session with the Rev. Rick Warren at Saddleback Church in California. Asked about the legislation, Mr. Obama said, “here’s a situation where folks are lying” when they say he has misrepresented his position.
In 2002, President Bush signed a federal “born alive” law. The measure passed by sweeping majorities in Congress, with the support of many legislators who usually vote against legislation favored by groups seeking to overturn Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court decision legalizing abortion. Even organizations like the National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League, now known as Naral Pro-Choice America, did not oppose the bill.
Mr. Obama has repeatedly said that he would have been willing to vote for such a measure in Illinois had it been identical to the federal statute. But “that was not the bill that was presented at the state level,” he said Saturday. “What that bill also was doing was trying to undermine Roe v. Wade.”
The statute Congress passed in 2002 and the one the Illinois committee rejected a year later are virtually identical. Both say, for example, that “the words ‘person,’ ‘human being,’ ‘child’ and ‘individual’ shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development,” regardless of whether that birth “occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section or induced abortion.”
That has led Mr. Obama’s critics to accuse him of playing fast and loose with the truth when he says he “would have been completely in, fully in support of the federal bill that everybody supported” if it had been offered at the state level.
“I don’t know whether he is lying or whether he forgot, but with his words, he is condemning himself, ” said Jill Stanek, a nurse in the Chicago area who was a main proponent of the federal measure and writes an anti-abortion blog. “He voted one way and then covered it up, and he has to explain that, not just to me, but to the American people.”
But the Illinois proposal always had a companion bill. The accompanying legislation, called the Induced Infant Liability Act, would have allowed legal action “on the child’s behalf for damages, including costs of care to preserve and protect the life, health and safety of the child, punitive damages, and costs and attorney’s fees, against a hospital, health care facility or health care provider who harms or neglects the child or fails to provide medical care to the child after the child’s birth.”
Groups that favor abortion rights say that bill would have introduced the possibility that doctors could be sued for failing to take extraordinary measures to save the lives of pre-viable infants, those born so prematurely that they could not possibly survive. As a result, they argue, it is disingenuous of anti-abortion organizations to claim that Mr. Obama was moving to quash only a narrow and innocuous definitional bill identical to federal law.
“I can tell you the sponsors always wanted the entire package of bills, which were introduced together and analyzed together,” said Pam Sutherland, who was president of the Illinois branch of Planned Parenthood at the time and is now the group’s lobbyist. “They never wanted them separated, because they wanted to make sure that physicians would be chilled into not performing abortions for fear of going to jail.”
Another concern mentioned by opponents of the bill, including Mr. Obama when he was in the State Senate, was that the state legislation amounted to an illegal end run around Roe v. Wade.
“We do not object to a solely definitional bill,” like the one approved at the federal level, said Mary Dixon, legislative director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Illinois. “But when you take a definition comparable to the federal one and combine it with other provisions that attempt to give full personhood to a fetus that is pre-viable and try to put fear of criminal and civil liability in the minds of physicians, you have created a much different scenario.”
The Illinois State Medical Society, which also fought the legislation and was cited by Mr. Obama on Saturday in his defense of his position, said in a statement that it opposed the package of bills, first introduced in 2001, “because they interfered negatively with the physician-patient relationship, attempted to dictate the practice of medicine for neonatal care and greatly expanded civil liability for physicians.”
In his remarks Saturday, Mr. Obama took a lawyerly approach, appearing to refer to the entire package of abortion-related bills regularly submitted to the Illinois legislature, not only to the 2003 definitional bill. His critics, however, said that was a smoke screen.
“Obama confuses these bills, which were entirely separate,” Douglas Johnson, legislative director of the National Right to Life Committee, said. “They had sequential numbers, but they were not in any way linked. To call them a package is a tactic to try to reach out and grab issues in an attempt to divert attention from this one.”
The accusations against Mr. Obama reprise those leveled against him in his 2004 campaign for the United States Senate. His opponent in that race, Alan Keyes, accused him of “infanticide,” citing Mr. Obama’s vote on the “born alive” bill, earlier versions of which had been rejected even when Republicans controlled the state legislature.
A year later, after Mr. Obama had moved on to Washington, the Illinois legislature approved a “born alive” law. But that statute, as the result of a compromise meant to avoid the standoff that led Mr. Obama to oppose the 2003 version, added language specifically stating that it should not be construed “to affect existing federal or state law regarding abortion” or “to alter generally accepted medical standards.”



I can’t even count the number of slanderous Obama/infanticide articles each day on this site any more. Enjoy your orgy today guys. I’m taking the day off.
By the way, the NYT’s article seems to cover the issue nicely.
Jill admits that maybe Obama isn’t lying. And a perfectly legitimate reason for opposing the bill is laid out:
“Groups that favor abortion rights say that bill would have introduced the possibility that doctors could be sued for failing to take extraordinary measures to save the lives of pre-viable infants, those born so prematurely that they could not possibly survive. ”
If these were separate bills, (even though they had consecutive numbers) then how do they become a “package”?
Before the “Lawyerly” liarly gets into office let’s call for an FBI or Congressional investigation into his misrepresentation of what he did in Illinois.
I mean, aren’t security clearance and backround checks required for dog-catchers? And if they are found to be lying, they are then disqaulified from being hired? I mean, this guy being President could result in a just a few more million innocent babies being murdered in the womb, and if we count Sally’s rarely comment, maybe, a few hundred thousand abortion targeted survivors.
Or, perhaps Obama doesn’t think or know that his pay grade is well above that of a dog catcher.
I mean, I personally know quite a few dog catchers who understand for a fact when life begins, for both humans and dogs.
The mockery begins, the 15 minutes of fame is ending:
The notion that this fight is actually about killing live babies, rather than regulating abortion, seems a bit absurd; however, the website of the Illinois activist who championed the legislation, Jill Stanek, bears that out.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0808/Obamas_prolife_critic.html
Oh, this is interesting. why have we not read about this at Jill’s site:
“Since 1975, Illinois law has contained explicit protections for babies that might survive an attempted abortion. Abortion opponents say that law did not protect severely premature fetuses, which might survive briefly but could not live for long outside the womb. Other advocates say the law applied to all babies born alive.”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/health/chi-obama-abortion_webaug20,0,1260617.story
Hal,
“Groups that favor abortion rights say that bill would have introduced the possibility that doctors could be sued for failing to take extraordinary measures to save the lives of pre-viable infants, those born so prematurely that they could not possibly survive. “
So you have crossed the line from being pro abortion to being pro infanticide. Now it is no longer enough that once a baby is “born” it has all of the rights that any person has. Now it has to have a chance at SURVIVING. What next? Babies born at 9 months with Trisomy 18 should be left to die since their chance of living a “long” life is nil.
No one said that they had to keep these kids alive through extraordinary means. You honestly feel that dumping them in the garbage while they are still breathing is acceptable? That’s okay with you?
And for the record Hal, Jill DID blog on the Illinois Law…You probably didn’t bother to read it because it was just more Obama news…
https://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/07/obama_relevant.html
“Since 1975, Illinois law has contained explicit protections for babies that might survive an attempted abortion. ” That, and the judgment of doctors, is enough for me.
And MK, thinking a law is unnecessary and potentially harmful does not make me “pro infanticide.” I don’t support a law requiring the killing of babies. Neither does Obama.
I don’t support a law requiring the killing of babies. Neither does Obama.
No. You support a law ALLOWING the killing of babies. So does Obama.
Hal,
That, and the judgment of doctors, is enough for me.
Good Lord Man…the “DOCTOR” is the abortionist…who WANTS THE BABY DEAD!
That’s like saying nobody knows Jews better than Hitler, so if he says one needs to die, I’ll trust his judgment!
If these were separate bills, (even though they had consecutive numbers) then how do they become a “package”?
Posted by: just a nobody at August 20, 2008 11:17 AM
……………………………………
The bill Jill supported lacked the wording necessary to prevent the liability bill from consideration then and in the future.
For many of us, abortion is not the same as Nazi extermination of jews.
Most of the late term abortions, from what I understand, are not done because the mother or the doctor “wants the baby dead,” but because of serious questions about the health of the fetus or the mother. These doctors are doing the best they can under difficult circumstances. Giving pro-life political groups the power to second guess the doctor’s decision seems like a bad idea.
Hal,
Putting your awfully flawed logic aside for a moment…(considering that you more than likely are incapable of properly debating based on what you said in this thread alone)….how do you feel about the idea that Obama lied about why he opposed the bill?
Even if his new reasons are solid, his claim as to why he originally voted against the bill has been proven to be false and admited by Obama’s “camp” as well. What does that mean to you that he lied?
Hal:
Your man of perfection knows exactly what he did. Or perhaps he forgot that he was against offshore drilling before he was for it or, for a massive tax increase before he was against it? Except for abortion, I really don’t know where this guy stands on anything. I mean, the wet middle finger he sticks in the air to determine which way the wind is blowing has “Semper Fi Abortus” tattoed on it, in blood red letters.
And to think he forgot about the how and why he voted against a bill that would have protected born alive innocent children targeted for execution by abortion? C’mon, he’s a Harvard Law graduate, the messsiah, the chosen one, the Matrix Man. He doesn’t forget things or are you now admitting that his moniker, “gaffe man” is accurate and excusable due to his lack of neuron recall ability. Perhaps his cranial hard drive has crashed and needs reprograminng like, “I’m a Christian and we know that abortion is murder”?
Just take one look at his talks to his real church, Planned Parenthood, where the right to murder babies is a sacrament and enshrined on their altar of power, whose icon should be a Swastika with a dead baby nailed to it. Or, his wife’s speeches on aborion rights. Are you insinuating that Obama and Michelle don’t pillow talk then? I mean, acccording to him, she’s the go to girl, the messiahette. So please, get your obfuscations correct before you expose them will you.
Hal, for you it’s OK to excuse incompetence and outright dishonesty by saying these words, “I don’t remember” or “I don’t recall”?
Look Hal, I used to think you were an honest guy. Now that’s in question.
So you have crossed the line from being pro abortion to being pro infanticide. Now it is no longer enough that once a baby is “born” it has all of the rights that any person has. Now it has to have a chance at SURVIVING. What next? Babies born at 9 months with Trisomy 18 should be left to die since their chance of living a “long” life is nil.
No one said that they had to keep these kids alive through extraordinary means. You honestly feel that dumping them in the garbage while they are still breathing is acceptable? That’s okay with you?
Posted by: mk at August 20, 2008 11:33 AM
…………………………………..
Nonsense mk. Pretending that 9 months of gestation magicaly confers ability to survive birth doesn’t change the intent of the bill. It’s intent is government interference with decisions best left to the actual people involved and their medical professionals. Skyrocketing insurance rates for OBs has forced many to seek other fields as it is. People and lawyers are sue happy and this bill would have left the door open for civil complaints whether extraordinary measures are taken or not. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t. You’ll be hardpressed to find a practicing OB in favor of such legislation.
HISMAN: Hal, for you it’s OK to excuse incompetence and outright dishonesty by saying these words, “I don’t remember” or “I don’t recall”?
Let’s pull up your attacks on Gonzalez, shall we? Remember this?
Gonzalez: “I can’t pretend to know or remember every fact that may be of relevance,” he warned at the start — and he wasn’t kidding. He used the phrase “I don’t remember” a memorable 122 times.
This is a minor bill in the distant past, I don’t think we can jump to the conclusion that Obama would necessarily remember. Or, as Jill stated, “I don’t know whether he is lying or whether he forgot,…” You think he’s lying. Jill at least gives him the benefit of the doubt.
Hal:
I honestly think that your desparate attempts at defending Barack Obama are intertwined with the extreme guilt you feel for aborting your first two children.
Obama’s election and subsequent promotion of abortion rights will never change the fact that abortion is murder and damnable and won’t assuage that guilt Hal, only admitting it and confessing it to our Lord Jesus Christ will do that.
If you don’t believe me, just ask some of the woman on this site who have had abortions and are now free from it’s demonic consequences.
Hal,
Most of the late term abortions, from what I understand, are not done because the mother or the doctor “wants the baby dead,” but because of serious questions about the health of the fetus or the mother. These doctors are doing the best they can under difficult circumstances. Giving pro-life political groups the power to second guess the doctor’s decision seems like a bad idea.
Then you understand incorrectly…
Later under cross examination from the AG
For many of us, abortion is not the same as Nazi extermination of jews
And I didn’t compare them. I compared Hitler’s authority to judge whether a particular jew should live to an abortionist authority to judge whether a particular infant should live…one that he just spent considerable time trying to kill…
People and lawyers are sue happy and this bill would have left the door open for civil complaints whether extraordinary measures are taken or not. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t. You’ll be hardpressed to find a practicing OB in favor of such legislation.
Oh dear. You mean abortionists might have to find another line of work? lol
So to protect their butts, we allow children to die. Makes sense to me…not.
Hal,
This is a minor bill in the distant past, I don’t think we can jump to the conclusion that Obama would necessarily remember.
God help me, I’m gonna blow…
The man has a voting record 6 inches long…if he can’t remember the few things he voted on, then he’s worse off than you think McCain is…early Alzheimers????
When Clinton was doing Monica, I couldn’t have cared less. She was stupid enough to fall for his garbage, whatever. I don’t care if he was doing his grandmother and the neighborhood dog!
I had a problem when he LIED! Just like I have a problem that Obama is LYING now!
Either he is a liar or incompetent. Either way, he ain’t president material.
Let’s step back a minute. Abortion is legal. Obama supports legal abortion. Many of you don’t. Don’t vote for him. You got your bills passed. Obama didn’t support those bills. Don’t vote for him.
If everyone who supports legal abortion votes for Obama and everyone who wants it banned votes for McCain then I’d be happy and Obama would be President.
Now, as promised an hour ago, I really must go. Have a great day.
Not to mention that IF he FORGOT, he could have checked his own voting record before denying it!!!!
Hal,
Are you implying that Gonzalez is now the presumptive Republican nominee for President? Or perhaps you have inside information that McCain is going to surprise the world and select Gonzalez as his running mate? Now that would be a hoot wouldn’t it?
No, my best guess is Mike Huckabee for VP, if you could just read between the lines at the Warren interview, Huckabee was the only guy mentioned in context and McCain said His adminstration would be a pro-life adminstration. McCain picks Huckabee and Obama can take his marbles, even the loose ones, and go home.
And Hal, you make my point. If Gonzalez were a pro-abort and you were running for President, you’d support even him. For you Hal, the right to murder babies, even those Barack Obama claims not to be able to determine are alive yet (pay grade, etc.) trumps all other issues. It’s apparent you are obsessed with it’s defense.
Hal, that’s not the NY Times you’re reading, it’s Mad Magazine, and that’s not Alfred E. Neuman’s photo, it’s Barack, although I can see how you could get the two confused.
Can anyone post a picture of Barack and Mad Magazine’s dude side by side. How about it Bethany?
Good Lord Man…the “DOCTOR” is the abortionist…who WANTS THE BABY DEAD!
I compared Hitler’s authority to judge whether a particular jew should live to an abortionist authority to judge whether a particular infant should live…one that he just spent considerable time trying to kill…
Ahem, sorry to interrupt, mk, but it is the MOTHER, not the doctor, who decides whether she is willing to carry a pregnancy to term, and by extension whether the fetus should live or die. Her privacy in making that decision is the basis of Roe vs. Wade, remember?
No Hal, we are not going to stop until legal abortion is obliterated from our country and the guilt of the shedding of innocent blood that pollutes our land is washed away by the innocent shed blood of the Lamb of God.
This is a war Hal and compromise with abortion is not an acceptable victory. The only thing we will accept is it’s total defeat.
Ahem back at you Ray…the law says that the doctor, NOT the mother, has the authority to determine whether or not the fetus is viable. If not, then you can leave it to die.
Hence the Hitler comparison. The doctor does indeed want to kill the child. That’s what the mother’s private decision is all about. Here doctor, here is $700.00, please kill my baby. Thank you very much ma’am, I’d be happy to oblige!
Once the abortion begins the woman’s “choice’ is pretty much a moot point. It’s all up to the doctor then, and he wants a dead baby…it’s what he’s getting paid to produce.
Ray,
In your defense perhaps you haven’t been following along. We were talking about the illinois bill saying that the doctor is the final judge of whether a baby that is born alive due to a failed abortion, must be kept alive as long as possible.
No, my best guess is Mike Huckabee for VP, if you could just read between the lines at the Warren interview, Huckabee was the only guy mentioned in context and McCain said His adminstration would be a pro-life adminstration. McCain picks Huckabee and Obama can take his marbles, even the loose ones, and go home.
Actually, probably only Karl Rove knows who McCain will be instructed to pick for his VP (that was humor, but this next bit is not), but speculation remains rife that it might be a pro-choicer such as Lieberman or Ridge. Seems this has some folks like you upset. What a shame!
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/20/gop.vp/
I’ve been following, mk, but I also know what this is all really about. I stand by my statement that it is the mother who chooses, not the doctor. In early term abortions, the issue of a surviving fetus is moot. Of course, the more you antis try to make early term procedures difficult to obtain (and the more you fight birth control distribution and education), the more late term procedures there will be, beyond the few medically necessitated by the health of the mother. You all are obsessing about a dilemma made worse by your own actions.
Sorry Ray,
I don’t understand your point. The doctor not the mother has the final say on whether or not the baby lives. Don’t know what you’re talking about….
People and lawyers are sue happy and this bill would have left the door open for civil complaints whether extraordinary measures are taken or not. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t. You’ll be hardpressed to find a practicing OB in favor of such legislation.
…………………………………………
Oh dear. You mean abortionists might have to find another line of work? lol
So to protect their butts, we allow children to die. Makes sense to me…not.
Posted by: mk at August 20, 2008 12:19 PM
………………………….
You seem to be having great difficulty seeing the big picture mk.
We are obviously talking about circumstances involving late term abortions and the legal ramifications of legally mandating extraordinary methods to sustain any semblence of life.
I realize that you refuse to believe that abortions are sometimes necessary to preserve the life and/or reproductive ability of the woman. Regardless of this belief, it is in fact true. OBs know it to be true and most will perform abortions to this end. In the extremely rare case of a fetus being born alive in such an instance, it is up to the woman and her doctor to decide the course of action or inaction. It would be incredibly naive to think that each case would be the same.
It is very sad that you find it amusing that so many OBs have left the field.
Most OBs have left the field because trial lawyers (most liberal) have made a mockery of the legal system and have made a killing off of them with frivolous lawsuits John Edwards’ channeling shenanigans come to mind.
Later under cross examination from the AG
I think you are all missing the point – does anyone know if this ever even happens? Show me some facts on the number of fetus’ that have “survived” an induced abortion and then maybe I will listen to you all whine about this pointless piece of legislation.
It’s good to know now Hal that you don’t really care that Obama is a liar. I think THAT’S what Jill’s real point is here. Not necessarily about the fact that he is pro-choice. We all know that. She’s mostly emphasizing the ummmm…LIES.
But I guess that’s the “change” you were looking for.
R,
So because it’s not COMMON that means it’s okay? Oh alright babies, just because YOU managed to survive this procedure intended to kill you and that RARELY happens, here’s a nice soiled utility room for you. We hope you enjoy your first/last breaths in here. Alone.
:sigh:
Ray,
In your defense perhaps you haven’t been following along. We were talking about the illinois bill saying that the doctor is the final judge of whether a baby that is born alive due to a failed abortion, must be kept alive as long as possible.
Posted by: mk at August 20, 2008 12:34 PM
………………………………….
There is no birth in a failed abortion of either the clinical or spontaneous varity. If the pregnancy terminates succesfully, and a living baby is the result, where is it mandated that the woman’s involvment in decisions pertaining to the treatment or lack thereof be excluded?
Redemma,
I will look up more cases as time permits but, why not google these? Baby Rowan, The Hiahleah, (sp)Florida born alive incident, and of course, what Jill has testified to. I don’t remember where to find the testimony on Carhart, but it’s out there. When I get home tonight, I will look up some stuff for you. Sadly, much of it goes unreported, therefore statistics may be hard to come by. Not many parents, nurses, or doctors really care to go on record and say, “Hey, I let this infant die”…if you think about it, right?
Redeema, I remember reading an article from England a few years ago that had these statistics…let me look and see.
This isn’t the exact article I was thinking of, but it does list some statistics.
According to it 1 in 30 babies aborted because of “severe handicap” survives the abortion.
http://www.christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20May07/Art_May07_10.html
Now, this is talking about medical abortions, which I’m suprised to see are even happening that late in pregnancy, but I’ll look and see if there are any more statistics on induced birth abortion.
Here’s another article that explains things a little more. Again, it’s a british study, but the phenomena is not uniquely british. I’m sure we can dig up some American studies as well, but this was just what I remembered from when they were trying to not give birth certificates to babies born alive at 22(ish) weeks because some babies were born alive after abortion at this time.
http://health.dailynewscentral.com/content/view/0001453/40/
Question: as far as I know, women can decide to allow her baby to die if the ends are disproportionate to the means. For example, if a *wanted* baby is born where it will most likely not survive extraordicary measures she can opt out and go for comfort care. So, my question is, what does the bill say about this option for these (most likely very) premature births–does it require extraordinary means? Does it require a decision between one or the other? Or just ask that they be treated like any other wanted child that was born with complications? I’m unclear about this.
PIP, it really just says that born infants, regardless of development and umbilical cord or not, provided they’re alive (breathing or a beating heart or movement of voluntary muscles) are to be treated like everybody else.
So, the same rules would apparently apply; extraordinary means not required.
“It’s good to know now Hal that you don’t really care that Obama is a liar. I think THAT’S what Jill’s real point is here.”
That’s not the point. No lies here. Jill herself is quoted as saying she doesn’t know if he’s lying:
“I don’t know whether he is lying or whether he forgot…”
Jill was being nice. It’s hard to imagine that he “forgot” how he voted on such a contentious bill that he has spoken about countless times.
He didn’t forget that he voted against it, but he might have mixed up why he voted against this particular version.
But, whatever, who cares.
http://www.physiciansforlife.org/content/view/853/26/
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2006/jul/06073103.html
Redemma, Here are two links but not stats. Jill probably has these in archives here on the site. She also has articles in archives on the “Baby Rowan” story. (just a guess here but perhaps under, “born alive”?
I found a 2006 article last night originating in Ireland on the statistics of born alive infants there but they were from hospitals only. I am running late for an appointment but hope to find some US stats later.
All of this is abominable but, the real point here, is that Obama has been caught red handed in a lie. It just happens to have fallen into Jill’s “territory”, so to speak. ;-)
I’m new here, I do not know if you are pro life, pro choice or indifferent on the matter….but…
To me, as voter, it is revolting not to offer babies medical assistance once born, even if it only allows them to live a few mor minutes and eases suffering. I would think most would agree no matter there politcal stance on abortion.
(If John Mc Cain is caught red handed in a lie, I will question it also!)
Later guys,
J A N
PIP,
The bill, I believe requires more than just “comfort care”, which isn’t anything really. It should require reasonable care to premies to give them a shot at life, not just left to die.
The parents, who’s intention was to kill the baby, do not have the babies best interests at heart.
btw: I never heard of a “wanted” premie just recieving comfort care if he comes breathing.
So yes, care that a “wanted baby” would normally recieve.
somebody can correct me if I’m wrong
Hal, I care and so do alot of other people. Alot.
Go look at some moderate democrat blogs and you’ll see that people care.
If you’re running for office, you’re briefed on all the possible issues someone might bring up against you. The BAIPA has been a thorn in his side for a long, long time. He not only lied about his reasons for voting against the bill, but also accused US of lying even when the truth of the matter was known to him.
Either he is the most incompitant man alive, or he lied…repeatedly. Either way, he’s not fit to be president.
Exactly, Lauren! (2:39 p.m.)
“Hal, I care and so do alot of other people. Alot.”
You don’t “care” in the sense it effects your vote. If he had voted for that bill, but was otherwise pro-choice you’d never vote for him. This issue is a red herring.
People who don’t like Obama’s views are all excited, but those who support him don’t see what the fuss is about.
Um, no Hal alot of people are “pro-choice” but don’t support this.
Here’s a quote from Bethany’s comment section (I hope it’s ok if I post this, Bethany)
“Bethany I want to thank you for this post…I am and have always been pro-choice…I believe that a woman has a right to choose what she does with her body…
Because of my beliefs I tend to have a rather broad acceptance of abortion practices…until this…
This video really made me stop and think about what I really feel…not just what the PC/Feminist me should think…
I do believe that a woman should have access to the morning after pills…I believe that she should have access to early 1st trimester abortions…but once that short window of time has passed…it stops being something she is doing to HER body and starts being something she’s doing to someone elses body.
I know that those who are pro-life will not agree with me about the early term abortions and will argue that it’s already a life…etc… From a scientific standpoint I disagree and that’s okay…we can disagree…I just wanted you to know that your post really opened my eyes and made me think!
Thanks ~Laurie”
Lauren, I don’t mind at all! Thank you!
“I do believe that a woman should have access to the morning after pills…I believe that she should have access to early 1st trimester abortions.”
Oh no, another abortion ad. Please remove it. ;)
haha Hal. :)
btw: I never heard of a “wanted” premie just recieving comfort care if he comes breathing.
So yes, care that a “wanted baby” would normally recieve.
somebody can correct me if I’m wrong
Posted by: Jasper at August 20, 2008 2:38 PM
………………………….
You are quite wrong Jasper. When there are no measures available, or those available will cause more harm than good, preemies are allowed to cease breathing.
You have to be incredibly naive not to know this is the case on a daily basis.
btw: I never heard of a “wanted” premie just recieving comfort care if he comes breathing.
So yes, care that a “wanted baby” would normally receive.
somebody can correct me if I’m wrong
Posted by: Jasper at August 20, 2008 2:38 PM
………………………….
You are quite wrong Jasper. When there are no measures available, or those available will cause more harm than good, preemies are allowed to cease breathing. You have to be incredibly naive not to know this is the case on a daily basis.
Posted by: Sally at August 20, 2008 5:48 PM
What??? Preemies are allowed to cease breathing on a daily basis? Does a medical person reading this know in what situation this would occur? Thank you.
Jasper: So yes, care that a “wanted baby” would normally recieve.
somebody can correct me if I’m wrong
Right on, Jasper.
—-
Whoa, I’m like in “agreeing with pro-lifers” mode.
btw: I never heard of a “wanted” premie just recieving comfort care if he comes breathing.
So yes, care that a “wanted baby” would normally receive.
somebody can correct me if I’m wrong
Posted by: Jasper at August 20, 2008 2:38 PM
………………………….
You are quite wrong Jasper. When there are no measures available, or those available will cause more harm than good, preemies are allowed to cease breathing. You have to be incredibly naive not to know this is the case on a daily basis.
Posted by: Sally at August 20, 2008 5:48 PM
What??? Preemies are allowed to cease breathing on a daily basis? Does a medical person reading this know in what situation this would occur? Thank you.
Posted by: Janet at August 20, 2008 6:31 PM
……………
Of course they do Janet.
Janet, if a baby is born with certain birth defects that make it impossible for them to live for longer than a few minutes, I believe hospitals allow the parents to simply hold the child until he/she dies.
I could be wrong about this,but I’ve read things to that affect from people who have lost children at birth.
Good Doug!
There is no birth in a failed abortion of either the clinical or spontaneous varity. If the pregnancy terminates succesfully, and a living baby is the result, where is it mandated that the woman’s involvment in decisions pertaining to the treatment or lack thereof be excluded?
Ummmmm…the law we’ve been quoting all day???
It is very sad that you find it amusing that so many OBs have left the field.
Sally,
Can you provide the context of this cross examination?
i copied and pasted the whole darn thing…but here’s a link…
http://www.mttu.com/Articles/The%20Abortionist%20Speaks.htm
And here is the transcript of the whole trial…
http://www.priestsforlife.org/pba/supreme-court-pba-ban.pdf
Premature infants have many special needs that make their care different from that of full-term infants, which is why they often begin their lives after delivery in a neonatal intensive care unit (NICU). The NICU is designed to provide an atmosphere that limits stress to the infant and meets basic needs of warmth, nutrition, and protection to assure proper growth and development.
Sally,
You are quite wrong Jasper. When there are no measures available, or those available will cause more harm than good, preemies are allowed to cease breathing. You have to be incredibly naive not to know this is the case on a daily basis.
You’ll have to do better than that? Show me some proof. This doesn’t like letting them stop breathing to me…
800 grams, 500 grams…wow!
Due to many recent advances, more than 90% of premature babies who weigh 800 grams or more (a little less than 2 pounds) survive. Those who weigh more than 500 grams (a little more than 1 pound) have a 40% to 50% chance of survival, although their chances of complications are greater.
http://kidshealth.org/parent/growth/growing/preemies.html
I think this will clear things up…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Doe_Law
thanks MK, good info…
All of this back and forth between Hal, MK and Sally, etc is entertaining reading…but for me – I’m just disgusted that a little boy with Down Syndrome (which is NOT incompatible with life) was inhumanely left to die in a closet; I’m disappointed that ANYONE with even a modicum of morality would oppose a law to prevent infanticide; and I’m very concerned about the qualtiy of B.O.’s ethical fiber based on the lies he appears to be spewing.
I could MAYBE accept that he forgot some of the details of his stance (as Hal asserts); EXCEPT that he stood up twice to oppose the law, he voted FOR amendments to the wording, AND he seems to recollect his position sufficiently to call others LIARS.
The whole thing is really very sad – both for the babies that fell victim to such practices and for the Democrats of America who are forced to accept such a morally shallow, ethically challenged candidate.
MK,
I’m concerned about what they draw the line at “virtually futile.” It’s sort of a subjective call based on the assessment of the newborn.
Hi Anonymous.
Just an FYI, we need you to post a name as opposed to Anonymous, otherwise it may get deleted.
But to your point…
I for one am most curious as to whether the parents of that baby have the slightest idea that it’s their baby that has thrown a wrench in Obama’s machine. How do they feel? Regret? Confusion? Shame? Pride??
I’m concerned about what they draw the line at “virtually futile.” It’s sort of a subjective call based on the assessment of the newborn.
PIP, no doubt (and I guess the “virtually” speaks to that).
There’s gonna be a line drawn somewhere, though.
I’m the anonymous from Aug 20, I had typed in my name, but I guess during preview it got deleted. My apologies. My name is Tricia.
To Carder-
Isn’t it absolutely amazing that a little, premature Down Syndrome baby (that nobody wanted) is bringing the DNC’s golden boy to his knees?
I feel sorry for that child’s family – I have a niece with Down Syndrome – so I know first hand what they missed out on – an amazing gift and LOTS of LOVE! I imagine they feel all kinds of emotions…and I’m glad I’m not in their shoes.
Thanks Tricia!!
I am glad you are no longer anonymous. :)
God will use the weak to shame the strong. I have no doubt.
I share your love for children with Down Syndrome. I have a niece with it as well!!
I don’t know where anyone gets the idea that a late term abortion is ever medically necessary. If a mother carries a baby to 7 month 8 months 8 1/2 she she will then endure labor and delivery the same as for a full term baby. So what health condition might she have at 8 months that she just figured out she had but was unaware of at 3 months. And if she can survive the delivery then why not let the baby be born head first instead of head last. It is actually easier to insert the scissors into the back of the head once the head presents and certainly easier to suck their little brains out and then crush their tiny skulls to assure a sucessful death. That is a load of crap when someone entertains the “medically necessary” for the mothers health and hey how is an abortion medically necessary for the baby? Um..is there any doubt what the out come will be for the baby if it is aborted? How about if you can at least correct the terminology and call it what it is. An abortion that is for the “convenience” of the mother. I think the important question here is what would God think of the murder of his tiniest children? I don’t care how anyone tries to justify their position for the termination of a life and I mean any life, if you can find a religion anywhere the supports abortion or find it somewhere in the Bible or the Koran or the Book of Mormon etc. that it is acceptable to murder pre-born babies or newly born babies I would like to see it. You cannot profess to be any faith at all if you support abortion. Sorry, it isn’t a political issue. It is fact that cannot be argued. There is no right to choose. It is a lie and it will cost you your soul.
Laurie,
Amen!