American Right to Life stages sit-in at Dobson’s office
Sigh… I have good friends and respected pro-life colleagues who are members of American Right to Life. They did such a good job establishing credibility with their Sheets of Shame huge pro-life sign at the Denver National Convention, and then they had to do this. It’s as if they can’t handle respect.
From the Associated Press, September 4:
Eight people have been escorted by police from the lobby of Focus on the Family headquarters in Colorado Springs after showing up to protest an endorsement by the group’s founder.
About a dozen protesters from American Right to Life Action arrived at Focus around 7:45 a.m. Thursday. Two hours later, 8 of the protesters went inside the building and refused to leave.
Officers escorted them out a short time later.
The ARLA says Focus founder Dr. James Dobson violated a pledge to God to never back a candidate who supports abortion. Dobson recently said on his radio show that he would “pull the lever for John McCain” if the election were held today.
The group charges McCain voted to approve abortion funding for pregnancies stemming from rape or incest.
ARTL is talking about McCain’s vote on the Hyde Amendment….
First passed in 1976 and named after its sponsor, pro-life Congressman Henry Hyde, may he rest in peace, this appropriations rider blocks federal funding of abortions for low-income women.
The Hyde Amendment must be reintroduced and passed every year. For years it had only a life-of-the-mother exception.
But in 1993 newly elected President Bill Clinton set his sights on offing the Hyde Amendment. It was in serious danger of failing until a rape/incest exception was added, when in a stunning defeat for Clinton, the Hyde Amendment was salvaged.
Since 1993 the Hyde Amendment has included a rape/incest exception. There is actual evidence in the Senate*, by votes taken, that restrictions on abortion would altogether fail if the rape/incest exception were excluded, in which case the American people would fund all abortions of low income women every year rather than those few for rape/incest/life of the mother.
(*In 1995, the Senate had a chance to vote on 2 different versions of an amendment to restrict coverage of abortions under the Federal Employees Health Benefits program. McCain voted for the first, stronger amendment, that allowed such coverage only to save the life of the mother. Only when that amendment was defeated did McCain support a second amendment that included rape-incest exceptions, which passed.)
Throughout his congressional career in both the House and Senate, John McCain has always voted for the strongest restrictions on federal funding of abortion that were offered.
ARTL in its press release cites as evidence that “John McCain funds the killing of countless children,” his vote on a 2006 appropriations bill that included the Hyde Amendment.
That was ARTL’s rationale for staging a sit-in against Dobson, a complete waste of time and harmful to the name of a good man.
It goes back to the same old argument, purism vs. incrementalism.
In this case, were it up to ARTL, we would be funding hundreds of thousands of abortions rather than a few – to be fair.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I concur with Bob Enyart, Ken Scott, and Will Duffy’s firm opposition to Mc Cain/Palin.
They should also be picketing Jill’s house soon.
John McCain is the only person who can prevent the human catastrophe of having Barack Obama in power promoting unlimited killing of ALL human beings in the first nine months of our lives. Even though he is not perfect, all supporters of unborn human rights should, in fact MUST, support him and Sarah Palin for the good of humanity. It does not serve the cause of unborn children at all to do anything which can help put dangerous politicians like Obama and Biden in power.
What about this part of the press release:
“Dr. Dobson is openly violating the pledge he took before God,” said Birkey, “by voting for John McCain. Both the Sarah Palin distraction, and the candidate’s rhetoric to Rick Warren claiming he believes that human rights begin at conception, are belied by McCain’s long tolerance of chemical abortifacients and funding the dissection of the tiniest embryonic boys and girls.”
Is “chemical abortion” and “dissection of embryonic boys and girls” no longer important to you, Jill?
John McCain is the only person who can prevent the human catastrophe of having Barack Obama in power promoting unlimited killing of ALL human beings in the first nine months of our lives.
See, this just isn’t going to work. “Barack Obama will promote baby killing” is just SUCH an EXTREME lie, only the most extremist of anti-choicers can take it seriously (and they were already voting Republican). Everyone else just looks at this and thinks “God, the Republicans really are out of ideas, aren’t they?”
I get the sense that pro-lifers don’t want to vote so much for McCain as they do for Palin. It’s just unfortunate for pro-lifers that McCain is attached to the ticket. What pro-lifers want is a Palin presidency and that won’t likely come until ’12 and only on the condition that she serves as VP first.
Reality: Explain what it meant that Obama expressed understanding that babies are aborted alive but argued that they not be assessed and potentially saved. What is that called?
reality,
Where have you been the past few years?
You need to face reality and stop pretending.
Obama is the most extreme pro-abortion politician in Washington or anywhere for that matter.
Did you not hear his promise that his first act as President would be to sign into law the FOCA (Freedom of Choice Act)?
Haven’t you researched the now well-documented facts of Obama’s record whilst an Illinois state senator regarding the Illinois BAIPA, which he killed in committee, even though it was identical to the federal version?
Well, if American Right to Life wants to help get Obama elected, no one can stop them.
Wonder who they’ll be picketing then.
Oh, good! On the pro-death side, we have:
* the most pro-abortion candidate in American history running for President, and he has a darned good chance of winning
* a Democratic Party platform that (despite the best efforts of pro-life Dems) is actually more full-throated in its defense of abortion than before
And as pro-lifers, we have:
* a GOP Presidential candidate who — while not perfect — is largely pro-life, and who faces an uphill struggle
* a GOP VP candidate who is a member of Feminists for Life, who has displayed pro-life conviction in her own choices, and who has energized the pro-life base like nothing else in years
Therefore, this is the perfect time for pro-lifers to begin attacking each other! Well done, boys!
(end sarcasm)
Here’s my counter-proposal: Why can’t all pro-lifers work together, at least until Roe is defeated? Surely we can all agree on that much, right? After Roe joins the Dredd Scott decision in history’s never-to-be-recycled bin, then we can pick fights with each other about how to proceed.
Sound reasonable?
Whoops … Anonymous @ 11:22am was me.
Yes, we must view this as a sad thing, ” a complete waste of time and harmful to the name of a good man.” The pickets of the Denver contractor on Christmas day were so much more godly.
Hal, LOL. But this Christmas, Enyart will be at Jill’s house, picketing her for having supported the “pro-abort” McCain/Palin ticket. He may have to borrow Jill’s mutilated fetus posters, as his won’t fit on the plane.
Hey Hal:
Just checking in? So exactly how does Planned Parenthood compensate you?
Are you on the clock or is it a salary?
How absolutely amazing it is to see proaborts trying to support the attacks on Dr. James Dobson for not being “radical enough” in his opposition to abortion….
It would be funny, if it weren’t so completely dishonest….
It saddens me to see “pro-lifers” wasting such time and energy attacking their allies. We are in the fight of our lives to bring people’s attention to how pro-abortion Barack Obama is, and they go and protest…… Dr. Dobson?!?!?!?
I’m sorry, but I’m having a really difficult time taking them seriously after these kind of antics. James Dobson has always stood firmly for life. I’m not sure what ARTL is seeking to accomplish in electing BO, except more blood on the hands of principle over action. Can someone explain how attacking other pro-lifers and pro-life groups, even if you disagree on some issues, will save babies? That’s why we’re here, isn’t it? Because we value life? That’s why *I’M* here reading these kind of blogs. Why is ARTL here? Guess they care more about getting their name out there than actually accomplishing something worthwhile. What a waste.
Looks like old “stinky-breath” has been busy again. It certainly can’t help the prolife cause that we divide and bicker amongst ourselves.
What is ARTL thinking here? Who would they vote for? Is it that they expect prolife voters to spoil their ballots, thus giving the Obama camp the victory? It makes no sense to me.
Yes,
And contrary to the pro-life movement, it is refreshing to see Liberals all united in the cause for murdering innocent children.
This little controversy means nothing and if this is the only thing pro-deathers get to celibrate about, it is evidence that the pro-life movement is doing very, very well, thank you.
I wonder if ARTL will be to the Republican ticket what the disgruntled Clinton supporter could be to the Democratic ticket, except ARTL is probably savy enough not to vote at all, and are likely much much smaller in terms of numbers.
Bit off topic, but if anyone has access to the third edition of Social Ethics, I would encourage everyone to read through the first chapter and its readings. It’s all philosophical arguments for or against abortion and is fairly interesting. It alternates between pro-life and pro-choice arguments, and some fairly compelling points for both sides are brought up. Definitely a good read.
Look at a local college library though if you can, it’s a text book and thus pricey.
Hal-
I agree that the protest on Christmas Day was ridiculous. I don’t know if this was the same case, but protesting the homes of those involved in building/contracting/ownership/whatever of the company that helped build the Aurora facility was ridiculous too. I have no idea what makes people think their view/side/etc will be more respected with those types of protests. Protesting the facility/site is one thing, protesting at private residences is quite another.
I really don’t get this either. I mean, yes, I wish that McCain took a bigger stand on ESCR, but he is miles and away better than Obama. Why would we want to help get Obama elected?
I mean, we have to work within the bounds of our government. All or nothing doesn’t work.
Bwahahahahaha
A great many antics of anti-choicers obviate how asinine they are, but few can compare to the priceless occasions when they’re attacking each other.
Cameron?!
Speaking of asinine….
“…it [that pro-choicers celebrate this conflict] is evidence that the pro-life movement is doing very, very well, thank you.”
The compulsory pregnancy goal has been or is being realized?
LOL
Yes… I’m back Jill… here to celebrate your foolishness.
Viel Spass!
Hey Hal:
Just checking in? So exactly how does Planned Parenthood compensate you?
Are you on the clock or is it a salary?
Posted by: HisMan at September 5, 2008 11:46 AM
Ha, I wish. I actually have to send them money. Well, at least it’s tax deductable.
CAMERON?!?!?!?
Wow! Where’ve you been? How’ve you been? For old times sake, I just gotta do it…
Speaking of asinine….Cameron at September 5, 2008 12:42 PM
Sorry, I could not help myself…bad MK…bad, bad MK.
Oliver,
Take note…you could have a lot of fun with Cam…and I could have a lot of fun watching.
Another difference between us and them…when one of our own does something incredibly stupid we say “Hey, you, that was incredibly stupid”
When one of yours does something incredibly stupid, you change the rules to make what they did justifiable.
Denial, denial, denial.
ARTL…what you did was incredibly stupid.
As a Christian I cannot support anyone who would stand by, for whatever reason, and allow even one baby to be murdered. I wouldn’t support someone who would allow one baby to be murdered to save one hundred others, either.
I don’t see how I compromise on that principle, just a little, without surrendering any reason to hold to it in the first place.
That this is called a “radical position” by those who call themselves pro-life illustrates more perfectly the schism in the pro-life movement. Don’t bother asking those who’s very faith demands that they never, ever compromise with evil to compromise on this issue. If that makes your goal of compromising your way to success more difficult…great.
Jill, erecting a massive sign does not produce credibility, but dishonoring a pledge to God destroys it. As Steve Curtis said, if we expose the child killing of Democrats only, we WOULD destroy our own credibility. I’m hoping you’ll allow this post of our ARTL press release:
ARTLA Rebukes Dobson for Breaking his Pledge before God
Colorado Springs, CO -American RTL Action, the political 527 group, is exposing Focus on the Family’s Dr. James Dobson for violating his public pledge in which he invoked the name of God, by declaring that he is voting for John McCain. ARTL members will protest Dr. Dobson at his headquarters at 8655 Explorer Drive in Colorado Springs on Thur. Sept. 4, beginning at 7:45 a.m.
On April 28, 1990 at the Washington D.C. Rally for Life on video and to hundreds of thousands of Christians, Dr. Dobson stated, “I want to give a pledge to you on a political level… I have determined that for the rest of my life, however long God lets me live on this earth, I will never cast one vote for any man or woman who would kill one innocent baby.” (See pledge video at ARTLaction.com.) James Dobson has violated his pledge by saying he is voting for John McCain, a Republican who has recently authorized funding to kill some children by surgical abortion.
American RTL Action calls upon Jim Daly, the president of Focus, to take down the video of Dr. Dobson’s pledge which still plays for tourists at their Welcome Center. Dr. Dobson has broken the public oath which he repeated over a period of years including on his Focus on the Family radio program in March of 1995 saying, “I am committed never again to cast a vote for a politician who would kill one innocent baby,” referring to the rape and incest ‘exceptions,’ “which are a window to the soul of a ‘pro-life’ candidate,” said ARTL Action president Steve Curtis.
“John McCain funds the killing of countless children,” said the group’s director of research Darrell Birkey, “for example by voting to allocate monies on Oct. 27, 2005 for tax-funded surgical abortion if the baby’s father is a criminal, that is, a rapist.” The official Senate.gov site documents McCain’s Yea vote [1] on the Health and Human Services Appropriations Public Law 109-149 and the Government Printing Office documents that McCain’s vote authorized funding for surgical abortion to kill an unborn child whose father is a criminal as the law states [2], SEC. 507. (a) “funds are appropriated in this Act” that includes coverage of abortion, SEC. 508. (a) (1) “if the pregnancy is the result of an act of rape or incest.”
[Of course National RTL misleads Christians on Republican candidates by ignoring their pro-abortion votes; and they claim [3] that McCain: “Voted consistently against federal funding of abortion,” by ignoring his votes that funded abortion; funded dissecting the tiniest children; gave millions to Planned Parenthood; etc. A NRTL 100% rating is a near-certain indicator that a Republican is pro-choice with exceptions.]
“Dr. Dobson is violating the pledge he took before God,” said Birkey, “by voting for John McCain. Both the Sarah Palin distraction, and the candidate’s rhetoric to Rick Warren claiming he believes that human rights begin at conception, are belied by John McCain’s long tolerance of chemical abortifacients and funding of the dissection of the tiniest embryonic boys and girls.”
“In violating his 1990 pledge in which he invoked the name of God, Dr. Dobson has lost the moral authority to speak for Christians,” said Curtis. “He can speak for Republicans who do not fear God, but he cannot speak for the Body of Christ. Jim Daly, please remove that video of Dr. Dobson’s broken pledge from the Focus on the Family Welcome Center; you dishonor the Lord as you portray Dr. Dobson as principled and as keeping his oath before God.”
Last week ARTL Action unfurled the massive Sheets Of Shame abortion protest sign on a mountain overlooking the DNC in Denver. “American RTL will expose both Republican and Democratic politicians who advocate the killing of unborn children,” said Curtis, who is also a former chairman of the Colorado Republican Party. And ARTL Action reminds Dr. Dobson that Jesus Christ in the Sermon on the Mount warned His followers against invoking God’s name in an oath, and regardless, forbade them from breaking their word. In the New Testament the apostle James wrote, “Do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath. But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No,’ lest you fall into judgment.”
John McCain repeatedly votes to give millions of dollars to foreign and domestic abortion providers including Planned Parenthood. One week after pro-abortion Rudi Giuliani dropped out of the primary race, Republicans for Choice endorsed John McCain. And his Sanctity of Life campaign webpage [4] doesn’t even mention the words conception, rape, incest, fertilization, nor the phrase human life amendment. Further, McCain refused to co-sponsor U.S. Senator Roger Wicker’s life-saving S.3111 [5] and refuses to endorse Colorado’s historic Personhood amendment initiative which is on their statewide November ballot. “McCain is as Jesus warned in Matthew 7:15,” said Birkey, “a wolf in sheep’s clothing, manipulating Christians into voting for someone who continues to kill the innocent preborn.”
American RTL Action has a test for a Christian to rank his own loyalty to God as compared to Republican politics. A believer need only consider whether he approves of Dr. Dobson violating the pledge he made before God to increase the chance of victory for a Republican in November. As Jesus said, “No man can have two masters,” yet Focus on the Family leads Christians to worship the Republican Party as an idol. American Right To Life Action urges everyone, please trust and obey God above all.
Please see the letter from Focus on the Family to us at ARTLaction.com which admits that Dr. Dobson has compromised on the pledge he made before God and then, sadly, tries to justify that blatant sin.
——————————-
Source URL: http://artlaction.com/release/20080903/artla-rebukes-dobson-breaking-his-pledge-god
Links:
[1] http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00281
[2] http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ149.109.pdf
[3] http://www.nrlpac.org/pdf/comparisonpiece.pdf
[4] http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/95b18512-d5b6-456e-90a2-12028d71df58.htm
[5] http://americanrighttolife.org/news/american-right-life-endorses-us-senator-roger-wickers-life-conception-act
[6] http://artlaction.com/files/DobsonPledgeLtr.pdf
Hey where’s PIP:
We need a redirect.
We need to refocus on envolution, not evolution, envolutoin.
in reference to my earlier comment
its the 7th edition, not the third. Definitely worth it, readings range from Pope John Paul II to the Supreme Court Majority Decision for Roe v. Wade
Dan,
Is that by Thomas A Mappes and Jane S Zembaty?
Oops, yeah it must be. Not too many books named Social Ethics in the 7th edition…
I’m pretty sure God can handle rebuking Dobson if He feels like Dobson has betrayed Him.
MaryContrary at September 5, 2008 12:51 PM said… As a Christian I cannot support anyone who would stand by, for whatever reason, and allow even one baby to be murdered. I wouldn’t support someone who would allow one baby to be murdered to save one hundred others, either.
and yet that’s exactly what you’re doing. It’s not murder to be unable to stop something. If there’s a fire in a building with five people trapped inside and you run in grab two people and run out, only to have the house explode behind you, you didn’t kill those three people. It’s horrible that they died, but you did what was in your power to save who you could. It’s ludicrous to say that just because you couldn’t save all of them(when their death was completely out of your contol) that you wouldn’t even attempt to save those that you could.
Abortion is legal in the United States. Should it be? Absolutely not. But in the meantime, as we work to get our country to acknowledge the personhood of every individual, shouldn’t we save who we can? We’re not responsible for the deaths caused by abortion. We ARE responsible to do the best that we can with what we have. If John McCain will continue to uphold and pass laws that, perhaps while not saving ALL children, will save some, my vote for him will be a vote in the right direction.
We have two choices for President of the United States. Two choices for the direction that we will take this country. Barack Obama, who has vote for infanticide, or John McCain. Perhaps Sen. McCain is not where we want him in all respects on the issue, but he will work to save the children that he can in the country that we have in a time when abortion is 100% legal.
That’s not compromise. That’s action. You said that you wouldn’t vote for someone who will stand by and allow children to be murdered. And yet, by not supporting McCain(which is in effect supporting his opponent) YOU are the one who is standing by and doing nothing. I’ll pray for you.
I’m still looking for someone to explain to me how God would be okay with us supporting someone who is willing to kill innocent children. Murder is murder is murder. Pro-lifers willing to support McCain would also have to support him if he was willing to kill born children, or kill Jews, or lynch blacks. If you wouldn’t support McCain under those circumstances, then you need to take a deep look at yourself because you really don’t think abortion is murder.
McCain recently said life begins at conception and then reports that embryonic stem cell research is ok. He willfully acknowledges that life and willfully will destroy it. The older use the younger to get what they want. That is not pro-life.
Do a search for his comments on Tim Russert’s show in July 2005 about Terri Schiavo. He was uninformed about her condition and basically says let’s forget about her. Euthanasia is going on every day in this country but, let’s not dwell on it.
Keep drinking the Republican evangelism magic juice and vote for their guy. A guy who was handpicked by the liberal media.
Wonder why the Bible calls us sheep? A few get scared and the rest follow.
Fear not! That is in the Bible.
Bobby-
I know Mappes is one of them, and my bag is across the room so you’ll have to excuse my laziness, lol. Sounds right though, its a text so I cant imagine there’d be many similar titles etc.
Very good though, I’m 4/5 of the way through the chapter and about to read the majority decision for Roe v Wade, theres a reading on PBA later on in the section.
It’s so tragic to see the Body of Christ act as though James Dobson is beyond reproach. He is now a liar and a hypocrit. He need’s to repent. Simple.
It is totally incredible for Dr. Dobson to pledge to not to cast a vote for a politician who would kill a single baby, then break that pledge to support and man who allow babies to be aborted and also experimented on.
The compound this, Dr. Dobson said in February of 2008, this he could not and would not vote for James Dobson as a matter of conscience.
Dr. Dobson apparently has adjusted his conscience so that it is no longer a problem.
How convenient!
Jon, I absolutely do not think that Dr. Dobson is beyond reproach. I think that he is human the same and you and I, and that he makes mistakes and missteps just as all other human beings do. Being a Christian doesn’t mean that we’re perfect, it means that we’re forgiven. Whatever Dr. Dobson’s sins against God are, they are against GOD. I don’t know about you, but I’m pretty sure that my God is big enough to handle it on His own.
I am a liar and a hypocrite as well. We all are. We all have judged where we should have loved. We have all lied where we should have told the truth. We have all remained silent when we should have spoken up, and we have all yelled when we should have said nothing.
Thankfully, God forgives and erases our sins. As Christians, we need to love and pray for our brothers and sisters who have fallen, not demonstrate outside their homes as though we are acting on God’s command.
So if I understand this correctly, we want to support McCain because he may be for killing SOME children, but at least he’ll be OUR pro-abort, and not someone else’s pro-abort?
Either that, or we’re willing to call a wolf in sheep’s clothing a sheep (OUR sheep!) in order to feel better about supporting him over an undisguised wolf.
This sacrifice of some babies to save others is morally troubling to me. Explain how that is — here take this baby, because she’s worth less to me than these 5 precious babies (not from rape). I’ve seen “moral” arguments made on this blog that it’s better to save five babies than see six die, even if we have to kill the one baby ourself. There’s a moral rot being exposed here, if we’re willing to accept such deals and rationalize them as “the Christian thing to do”.
But on the subject of Dobson — if he’s chosen to support OUR pro-abort instead of their pro-abort, how is American Right to Life wrong for calling him a hypocrite?
What’s more, he’s CLEARLY violated his oath. “one unborn child” he said. McCain is FOR killing far more than one unborn child. Embryonic stem cell destruction? Yes. Roe v. Wade overturned? No (he’s on record opposing its overturning — no matter what he says now that he’s counting on the votes of evangelicals). Personhood? No. How is he suddenly pro-life just because this politician has made a “promise” to us?
Should we really ALL work together to elect a pro-abort? Seriously! Dobson’s working against the pro-life movement in this case, mistakenly believing a political compromise is justified by his fear of a worse political outcome. But he’s signing his name to the death warrant of kids by electing someone who INTENDS to kill SOME children!
Christians HAVE to stand up against hypocrisy! If it’s on their side, yes. If it’s on both sides, then oppose both sides. That’s what we’re asked to do by God — stand against the wickedness, don’t participate in it!
James Dobson has abandoned his pledge and we need to point this out to the public whether through press releases or through civil disobedience until the church understands that it is IMMORAL and in DIRECT DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD to support any candidate that votes for or promotes the killing of even one innocent person.
McCain is pro-choice with exceptions. That is why I and others who will never bend on killing the innocent will be voting for ALAN KEYES.
McCain will accomplish NOTHING as far as advancing real pro-life legislation even if he serves two terms. Anyone that has paid attention to McCain over the years understands this.
We have 0 judges on the Supreme Court who recognize the hard core scientific fact that human life begins at conception. Or, if a few of them do recognize this, it has NOTHING to do with their opinions given on the court. As Scalia said, “As far as I know the only commandment I apply from the bench is ‘Thou Shall not Lie.'”
Scalia, Alito and all other “catholic” judges were instantly excommunicated the moment they first supported a law that ends with “…and then you can kill the baby.”
We must support AMERICAN RIGHT TO LIFE and never ever except or support any law that ends with “….and then you can kill the baby.”
James Dobson’s official statement on 02/05/2008 to the Laura Ingraham Show.
Well guess what. I’m not going to allow ARTL to p!ss on my parade. I feel closer to the majority of the pro-life movement than I have in a long time, thanks to what I see as a strongly pro-life ticket that we’ve-for the most part-been able to rally around.
Mr. Kyffin, again we come back to my earlier point. We are not “sacrificing” children. These children are dying anyway. Abortion is legal. The question is if we should stand by and do nothing to help the children that we can.
Why should we stand by and do nothing while children die when we have the opportunity to save some children? Sen. McCain will not harm more children. Sen. Obama will.
It’s actually a pretty clear choice. Do I wish that *I* could run for President and pass a human life amendment? Absolutely. But I understand the political system that we have in place, and I understand that that is not possible right now. I’m doing what I can with my vote. What are YOU doing? Pro-life legislation saves lives. Not all lives, but some lives. Can you explain to the babies that could have been saved why you’re letting them die when you could have done something?
CHChick 1:11 PM
Great post.
CHChick,
I’ve seen that “burning building” analogy before, and it’s a common defense for incrementalism, but it holds no water.
We’re talking about McCain, who IS pro-abortion in SOME cases. By supporting him, we’re helping to SET the fire! We’re taking responsibility (buying in) for his deeds, by voting for him!
We undermine our political clout by accepting the bone they throw at us. We prove that the GOP NEVER has to elect a principled pro-lifer, because they know that Christians will vote for a faker, so long as we have that politician’s lip service.
Forget Palin — I have great hopes for her, but she has 0% impact on McCain himself. She can become vice president and McCain could STILL decide to kill kids with federal funding and she wouldn’t have a say in the world about it. She’d, in fact, have to sit quietly and support HER president, the pro-abort — the man who gave her her job.
We now have a politician’s promise in our pocket! We’ve been promised the world by OUR pro-abort, who says he’s changed his ways. I now declare that we are guaranteed PEACE IN OUR TIME! by this little slip of paper (re: Chamberlain-Hitler Munich 1938).
Bob Kyffin
p.s. Also, Jill — you’re referring to a 2006 vote, but the release specifically talks about a 2005 vote that sounds very different from what you’re referring to. You’re not reading National Right to Life (or McCain) talking points again are you? They’ve been known to lie, you know!
“I’m pretty sure God can handle rebuking Dobson if He feels like Dobson has betrayed Him.”
What unbiblical thing to say. God gave us the responsibility of rebuking our brothers who are sinning and unrepentant. God doesn’t want us to wait for his ultimate rebuking someday after Dr. Dobson dies.
Proverbs 27:5
Open rebuke is better Than love carefully concealed.
xalise said:
“I feel closer to the majority of the pro-life movement than I have in a long time, thanks to what I see as a strongly pro-life ticket that we’ve-for the most part-been able to rally around.”
HAHA!!!! That is how people “felt” in 2000 when they voted for Bush and look at how big a disaster his time in office has been for the nation including the pro-life movement!
If you love God then you will not care one bit about how close you feel to “the majority of the pro-life movement”. You’ll care much more about how close you feel to God and His will which is to NEVER EVER SUPPORT any person that justifies the intentional killing of even one innocent person.
CHChick said:
“We are not “sacrificing” children. These children are dying anyway. Abortion is legal.”
And everytime you help to PASS A LAW that ends with “….and then you can kill the baby” you ensure that abortion will remain legal for many more years.
You “incrementalists”, actually I prefer the term ABORTION COMPROMISERS, are so short-sighted that you don’t seem to acknowledge that all of these laws you support that are pro-abortion with exceptions will one day need to be overturned in order to make abortion illegal.
Answer this question all of you abortion compromisers:
Do you acknowledge that every pro-abortion law with exceptions that you support will have to one day be overturned in order to make abortion illegal in your state?
Don’t vote for Stalin (Obama) or Hitler (McCain). Vote for ALAN KEYES!
I’m an atheist pro-lifer. If you could pull your head out from between your cheeks for 5 seconds, you’d realize that you and you damnation-preaching buddies do not own the pro-life movement.
xalise blathered unintelligently:
“I’m an atheist pro-lifer. If you could pull your head out from between your cheeks for 5 seconds, you’d realize that you and you damnation-preaching buddies do not own the pro-life movement.”
FOMBL!!!!!!!!!!!
With 99% of the pro-life movement being made up of CHRISTIANS who trust Jesus Christ for salvation I can say without any fear of contradiction that WE DO INDEED OWN THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT.
FOMBL?
McCain and Palin symbolize so much to me…they show me that I can come here and voice my concern for those I see as the unborn that must be protected (McCain’s view almost exactly) and get along with the other folks here who take a harder line (like Palin). If you can’t respect that, and have nothing to contribute, I have no use for you.
Full Of More Blatant Lies?
CHChick,
You ask what -I- am doing? Well, alot actually, but let’s talk about Colorado Right to Life and American Right to Life.
– We’re taking Colorado legislators and educating them about how it’s important to support Personhood and NEVER undermine the Right to Life through careless legal language. And they’re beginning to understand!
– We’re keeping fake pro-lifers from getting party endorsements
– We’re standing against what’s now the largest operational killing center in the US, which opened over budget and behind schedule after numerous contractors walked off the job. This, though accomplished by the Collaborator’s Project, was largely successful because of help from CRTL.
– The pro-life, anti-Democrat DESTROYS UNBORN CHILDREN message in newspapers and TV screens around the world!
– First Personhood measure on ANY state ballot anywhere! 100% would NOT have happened without significant moral, financial and volunteer support (and philosophy direction) from CRTL.
That’s just to name a few. The ground is moving in Colorado, and things are changing in impossible ways. God is encouraging the movement here, and peoples’ minds are being changed from a codependent relationship with the Republican party to a real demand that the Right to Life be respected in law — NO MORE COMPROMISES!
So we did a 500-foot tall sign (DESTROYS UNBORN CHILDREN) to oppose Barack Obama… You think we should have been practical and moderate and only have a 200-foot tall sign to oppose McCain? (destroys unborn children) Measured response, right?
The real question is what’s National Right to Life doing? Partial Birth Abortion Ban? One that doesn’t even ban partial birth abortion? Read the Gonzales v. Carhart ruling — PBA (slightly modified) is still legal up to the 9th month of pregnancy, and the justices made sure we knew it will remain so as long as they have their say.
All these pro-life laws out there (most, not all) actually ENDORSE a right to abortion! They say “abortion is a right unless” or “abortion shall be prohibited unless you do these things”. These “pro-life” laws ENTRENCH “abortion rights” in law!
What am I doing? What are we doing? We’re doing everything we can to wake up the pro-life movement and make you all realize the damage that’s been done to us by false leadership and misleading thinking!
(besides all the great things we’re accomplishing in Colorado)
“I’m an atheist pro-lifer. If you could pull your head out from between your cheeks for 5 seconds, you’d realize that you and you damnation-preaching buddies do not own the pro-life movement.”
Okay. Who said we did? My first comment was actually in response to the impression I’m getting from all this. Namely that Christians are somehow betraying the pro-life movement in some of the stances we take.
Frankly, if killing only a few babies rather than a thousand or a million is the pro-life movement then it is, indeed, your movement. We neither agree with it nor want it.
But don’t whine that we’ve abandoned, betrayed or are hindering a movement that’s evil. What do you expect?
Darrell, are you honestly trying to say that the angry and bitter actions of ARTL are in anyway the marks of loving Christians? I don’t know these people personally. I can only judge on the fruits of their labor, and all of their releases are dripping with contempt for someone or another. Usually someone that they COULD be working with to save children.
I have a sister (biological, not just in Christ, haha) who has continually sinned against God. She has recently divorced her first husband and is engaged to a second without Biblical reason for her divorce. My heart hurts for her. I pray for her, and I love her. I do not send out press releases about her or protest in front of her house. I will do all I can to bring her back to Christ, but her sins are between her and God. She doesn’t owe me an explanation, she owes God her repentance.
Perhaps if the press release condemning Dr. Dobson seemed to be filled with any measure of Christian love, I would have a different view of ARTL. As it stands, I have difficulty acknowledging them as an organization doing God’s will.
Bob, a vote for Alan Keyes, whose pro-life views I respect, will bring about President Obama. I can’t live with that on my conscience. Voting for Mr. Keyes won’t save children. Christians aren’t allowed to be proud, Mr. Kyffin.
“fake pro-lifers”
HAHAHAHAHA. As if people need your approval to want to try and keep babies from being scraped out of their mothers’ wombs. Sounds like some people are a little full of themselves…
Bobby Bambino said:
“FOMBL?”
Fall
On
My
Butt
Laughing
Christians do own the pro-life movement. Christian are a super majority. Get over it all atheists and non-Christians. Get over it.
The anger in some of these posts hurt my heart. I’m sorry if I’ve contributed to this spirit. Please know that my comments are honest and in a spirit of reaching out to others and coming to an understanding, even though in my frustration it may not come as such.
CHChick said:
“I have a sister (biological, not just in Christ, haha) who has continually sinned against God. She has recently divorced her first husband and is engaged to a second without Biblical reason for her divorce.”
If your sister attends your church then you should disfellowship her as Paul spends the entire 5th chapter of 1 Corinthians explains in some detail. Does your church obey the directions given in 1 Corinthians 5 or does your church think it knows better and is wiser and nicer than God?
FYI – ARTL has been dealing with Dobson’s lying and flip-flopping for YEARS now, even before ARTL was officially formed. There is a history behind it. Dobson needs to be called out and attention brought to his abandoning his pledge that was known as “the Dobson pledge”.
I don’t attend the same church as my sister as we live in different parts of the country. Thank you though for you love and prayers. It’s appreciated.
CHChick, is it better to do what is right and allow a child to die or do what is evil and save a child’s life?
The Christian answer, as hard as it may be to swallow, is to do what is right. Always.
Romans 3:5-9
5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) 6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, ?Let us do evil that good may come? as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.
Again, I speak as a Christian to what is morally right. Those who aren’t Christians needn’t agree. But neither should they expect I’ll agree with them.
Bob Kyffin asked:
“The real question is what’s National Right to Life doing?”
NRTL is busy looking for court cases for its lawyers to make money on. NRTL makes money through promoting pro-abortion laws. NRTL helps Bopp make more money so he can live a luxurious life and go to Republican platform meetings and promote using embryos as a source of stem cells as Jill reported on this blog a few days ago.
how is it evil to do what we can? we are not affirming abortion, we are working within the law of the land, which is, 100% legal abortion. Grar! There should not be an “us” or “them” in the pro-life movement. I’m an individual pro-lifer; no one should have to “take sides” when there are differing opinions of how to best accomplish saving lives.
Everything I do I approach with prayer. I’m not insinuating that anyone else doesn’t… merely that you shouldn’t think that I don’t.
There is nothing immoral about voting for a candidate who is not completely in line with the entire pro-life platform when they are opposing someone who is unequivocally pro-abortion (and in the case of Obama, pro-infanticide). Do I wish that John McCain was consistently pro-life in all matters, that is, in the case of incest, rape, and against ESCR ? Yes! But those people who withhold their vote because McCain isn’t completely in line with their beliefs is to basically give a vote to Obama and I’m afraid that they are going to be held accountable for that someday.
“Master,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
“Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”
(Luke 9:49-50)
I understand that pro-life purists disagree with pro-life incrementalists. Well and good. There are reasonable positions on both sides of this debate. Personally, I am an incrementalist … but I believe that we will need both sides to prevail against the Culture of Death.
That said, picketing each other is silliness. Can you not see how the pro-choicers on this very blog are enjoying watching us fight? We are encouraging our opposition with this nonsense! You know who our opposition is, right? They’re the people who have so far managed to keep the United States of America a country in which the life of an unborn child is worth less than that of a household pet.
(Kill a kitten, and you go to jail. Kill thousands of unborn children, and NARAL will laud you as a public hero.)
We should direct our energies against the Culture of Death, not against each other. If we must rebuke each other, we should do so with civility and mutual respect. We are all committed to defending Life. We simply have different ways to achieve that goal.
Can we at least declare a truce until after Roe has fallen? After that happy day, please feel free to picket James Dobson all you want. Until then, we have a much more important task ahead of us.
“how is it evil to do what we can? we are not affirming abortion, we are working within the law of the land, which is, 100% legal abortion. Grar! There should not be an “us” or “them” in the pro-life movement. I’m an individual pro-lifer; no one should have to “take sides” when there are differing opinions of how to best accomplish saving lives.
Everything I do I approach with prayer. I’m not insinuating that anyone else doesn’t… merely that you shouldn’t think that I don’t. “
I’m sure you do. Don’t doubt it for a minute. But, in the end, what you’re suggesting is that we must choose between someone who allow only so many murders and someone who allow far more murders. I chose neither. In the end I will have no guilt for supporting any murder at all, rather than guilt in supporting only a few.
Further, casting my vote for a third party even works politically. The Republicans will know after this election that compromise loses votes. LOTS of votes. How many pro-lifers do you know agree with allowing a handful of exceptions? Very few! So ask yourself what in the world is the purpose of a politician taking that stance? You’ve already said that you wouldn’t, if you were president. Clearly, he’s counting on you compromising your principles. He’s, in fact, taking the exact opposite route with you that you are with him.
He’s doing what he can about those darned pro-lifers, allowing as many abortions as he can. He’s compromising with you.
So…you’re compromising on murder. I absolutely understand that this can seem like the right thing to do. It does, after all, save some lives. But it simply isn’t the right thing to do.
This is a spiritual battle as much as anything. Don’t let your pride be a victory for the other side.
Well, I for one, find it very kindergarten-like to hold your breath and stomp your feet in the corner as you ARTL’s are doing. Let me know how much THAT accomplishes. Last time I did that when I was 5, I don’t think it accomplished too much.
News flash: ALAN KEYES HAS NO CHANCE OF WINNING SO YOU MIGHT AS WELL VOTE FOR OBAMA.
Eileen, I think you’re both forgetting that we are talking about murder. Unless you are willing to suggest Jesus would allow murder to take place, so long as the murderer did so in His name, then that argument doesn’t work.
Naaman, I absolutely understand how you feel. But you just can’t expect Christians to compromise on murder. Some will if you press, I’m sure. I will not and I can’t apologize for that. I don’t even want to.
” The Republicans will know after this election that compromise loses votes. LOTS of votes. How many pro-lifers do you know agree with allowing a handful of exceptions? Very few!”
Well, that’s just great, Mary. Have a temper tantrum and show the Republicans how mad you are and in the meantime, Barack Obama will pass FOCA and install more Supreme Court justices who will legislate from the bench and our country will suffer in more ways that you can even count but you will have made your point!
well said, Naaman.
Actually…I think I got Eileen and Naaman confused.
Oops. Apologies. :D
Eileen, with all respect this is no temper tantrum. It’s a moral decision and it’s very clear to me.
Naaman said:
“Can we at least declare a truce until after Roe has fallen?”
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!
If Roe v Wade is overturned there will still be MANY pro-abortion laws in states around the nation that alleged “pro-life” groups helped to pass into law. Like the “parental notification” law, the “interstate commerce” law and the “hospital residency” law that the pesudo-pro-lifers in Indiana are trying to get passed.
Jesus also said to render unto Caesar so until we have someone to vote for who is completely pro-life then I will vote for the one who will do the least amount of harm.
“How many pro-lifers do you know…”
A lot. As I said before, get your head out, get out of your immediate circle of friends, out of your church, out of your security bubble every once-in-a-while, out in the real world, you will find that not everyone is a hard-liner like you.
Eileen: I’m kind of astounded. There aren’t any third party candidates who are 100% pro-life?
Mary, with all due respect, it is pride at work here when people shirk their civic and grave moral responsibility and in essence allow the worst possible choice to come into power.
Elizabeth showed all her foolishness by saying:
“News flash: ALAN KEYES HAS NO CHANCE OF WINNING SO YOU MIGHT AS WELL VOTE FOR OBAMA.”
And when Jesus Christ was waging His campaign most thought He had no chance of winning. Especially when He was dying on the cross.
We will not vote for Stalin or Hitler. When given Stalin and Hitler as our choices we will instead vote for someone else and not those two.
God will condemn you for voting for any candidate that supports abortion as Obama and McCain do. I’d bet my soul on it.
I’d be careful making bets with your soul if I were you Zeke. Losing will turn out bad for you. But hey, if that means wherever I go, I don’t have to see YOU, then GO AHEAD!
I understand that Alan Keyes is running as a third-party candidate. The problem is that they never win. That is how we got Bill Clinton — because Ross Perot ran as a third party candidate. Didn’t we almost end up with Al Gore or John Kerry because of Ralph Nader? I would vote for Alan Keyes in a minute if I thought that he had a snowball’s chance in you-know-where! But it never works.
“Mary, with all due respect, it is pride at work here when people shirk their civic and grave moral responsibility and in essence allow the worst possible choice to come into power.”
What are you talking about? I happen to think compromising on this issue is shirking my civic and grave moral responsibility. I thought I’d shown that fairly well. Why do you continue to say this is pride and petulant stomping of feet? This is simply refusing to support murder, even a lesser quantity.
Ezekl — I base my decision on what I have read and heard from an encyclical written by Pope John Paul II on civic responsibility and from Fr. Frank Pavone who is head of Priests for Life. You are not compromising your eternal soul by voting for the person who has a reasonable expectation of winning and who will do the least amount of harm to the Pro-Life cause.
JOHN MCCAIN’S OWN WORDS ON OVERTURNING ROE V WADE:
“I’d love to see a point where Roe vs. Wade is irrelevant, and could be repealed because abortion is no longer necessary. But certainly in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal of Roe vs. Wade, which would then force women in America to [undergo] illegal and dangerous operations.“
Because Mary, third party candidates never win. I want to do what is within a reasonable realm of possibility to make sure B. Obama does not become the next president. Do you really want to put him in charge of our country?
John McCain is a good man, and to compare him to Hitler is DISGRACEFUL. YOU are the ones who should be ashamed of yourselves.
Well, Ezekl, he hasn’t said that recently. I believe that he is taking his constituents seriously these days. He did say just recently that he believes that life begins at conception.
Yes, everyone, can’t you see that Mary isn’t prideful, but simply dutiful, responsible, morally superior, and pious?
*rolls her eyes*
Can you even hear yourself? Do you even see what is wrong here?
Ezek13:19 wrote:
If your sister attends your church then you should disfellowship her as Paul spends the entire 5th chapter of 1 Corinthians explains in some detail. Does your church obey the directions given in 1 Corinthians 5 or does your church think it knows better and is wiser and nicer than God?
Wow, I think I just had an epiphany. Did you seriously just tell CHChick to throw her sister out of the church?
Wow. I thought Christians like that were only bad stereotypes…. :(
I have a recommendation for you:
http://www.amazon.com/When-Christians-Happen-Good-People/dp/1578564905
Or just sing that old song, “And they’ll know we are Christians by our love, by our love….”
Mary, I am speaking strongly on this issue because I have encountered fellow Catholics who assume the same air of moral superiority in regard to voting for a candidate who is not completely pro-life. I almost feel that they are more responsible than Catholics who vote for blatantly pro-choice candidates for the outcome of this critical election. Because it is those people who withhold their vote this way who very well may determine who is our next president and if it is Barack Obama then God have Mercy on us.
Naaman,
I think I may just have to get that book and read it!
“Ezekl — I base my decision on what I have read and heard from an encyclical written by Pope John Paul II on civic responsibility and from Fr. Frank Pavone who is head of Priests for Life. You are not compromising your eternal soul by voting for the person who has a reasonable expectation of winning and who will do the least amount of harm to the Pro-Life cause.”
Okay, you used the extreme (compromising your eternal soul) to make your point. Let me use the extreme to make mine. What if McCain becoming president meant that 1 million babies were murdered while Obama as president meant 1 million plus 1? Would you then still support McCain or would you then decide it’s time to look for a third candidate to support?
Well, go look at abortion stats under Republican leadership versus Democratic leadership. You’ll find my example here is a little off. Abortions have actually declined since about 1990, the numbers being higher during Reagan and Bush Sr’s presidency. Why do you think McCain represents some major difference? In all seriousness, the Republicans haven’t accomplished anything more or less the the Democrats. It’s way past time to look elsewhere.
With all respect I don’t see why you support McCain and act as if Obama is so horrible. I see little difference between the two. I don’t want either, so Obama is no motivator to get me to vote Republican.
And yes, I realize I make it sound as if abortion is the only thing I’m considering when it comes to whom I vote for. It isn’t. It does however disqualify some for consideration altogether.
Eileen claimed:
“I base my decision on what I have read and heard from an encyclical written by Pope John Paul II on civic responsibility”
No wonder. John Paul II and is not a good source and neither is the US COnference of Catholic Bishops.
You certainly value being on a winning team more than you value not compromising on God’s eternal command You shall not murder.
And I challenge you to quote JPII anywhere where you claim he says something like “When the mainstream media and political parties support Stalin and Hitler as their candidates then just vote for the one you think will do the least amount of damage.”
FAnd I challenge you to quote JPII anywhere where you claim he says something like “When the mainstream media and political parties support Stalin and Hitler as their candidates then just vote for the one you think will do the least amount of damage.”
Posted by: Ezek13:19 at September 5, 2008 3:11 PM
That is simply ridiculous.
Jesus promised the Holy Spirit as our advocate and that “the gates of Hell will not prevail” against the Church. I believe Jesus and therefore I trust what JP II has taught.
I came in here originally in the hopes of explaining why so many Christians have become disillusioned with the pro-life movement, no longer seeing it as pro-life but as a compromise.
I see some mocking, others insisting this is prideful and still others freaking out that analogies involving Hitler are used. I wonder if I’m doing more harm than good because no one really cares why Christians are disillusioned.
You guys cannot even understand how gleeful this is making us pro-choicer, you guys bickering like this. Hello, 8 years of Obama.
In further response, if both candidates are equally anti-life then that is the time to sit out of an election but that isn’t the case in this election.
Questions for Mr. Bob Kyffin; (1)If Pharaoh had chosen one of the mid-wives, to be his VP, wouldn’t he be a morally better pick, than Obama? (After all, Pharaoh wasn’t for killing ALL the kids) (2)Who do you think will have legitimized more killing of innocent children, when the history books, of this world, are closed? Pharaoh or McCain?
Mary, if I misunderstood then I am very sorry. I thought that you were asserting that you were not going to vote for John McCain because he is not fully consistent with the pro-life platform.
Eileen said:
“Well, Ezekl, he hasn’t said that recently. I believe that he is taking his constituents seriously these days. He did say just recently that he believes that life begins at conception.”
And this shows how easily duped you are by another lying Republican politician.
Elizabeth said:
“John McCain is a good man, and to compare him to Hitler is DISGRACEFUL.”
Let’s compare. Under Hitler @ 6 million Jews were murdered. Under McCain somewhere between 5-6 million American babies will be murdered during the 4 years he serves as president.
Looks like a pretty accurate comparison to me!
Naaman said:
“Did you seriously just tell CHChick to throw her sister out of the church?”
God commanded it. Just read 1 CORINTHIANS 5. Its only one chapter 13 verses long, but I am sure you can read that much.
FYI – Those of us who refuse to support someone like McCain who will murder some innocent human life are MORALLY SUPERIOR to those who have no problem supporting someone that will kill some innocent human life. This is what actual moral superiority looks like. We that accept 0 murders are morally superior to those who accept 1 million+ murders each year.
Think about it.
“Mary, if I misunderstood then I am very sorry. I thought that you were asserting that you were not going to vote for John McCain because he is not fully consistent with the pro-life platform.”
No, that’s correct. I also explained why that mattered to me, in that it means there are some babies that he’s willing to allow murdered.
Yes, Erin, because B.Obama can not win exclusively on his political platform which is in reality a far-left, radical socialist agenda that is anti-life, anti-family, devoid of hope and beneficial change.
I have a feeling that people like Zeke are the reason many people turn pro-choice.
I also think we should differentiate between morally superior and self-righteous. Obviously I believe I’m agreeing with God here, not with Mary (that’s me). So, yeah, I’m specifically seeking the morally superior position (i.e. superior to my own and everyone else’s moral position), which would be God’s moral position.
Call me crazy but that seems like a good idea. ;)
“You guys cannot even understand how gleeful this is making us pro-choicer, you guys bickering like this. Hello, 8 years of Obama.”
Posted by: Erin at September 5, 2008 3:17 PM
Okay, Mary — Erin is helping me to make my point.
I believe that God is us giving a chance with the addition of Sarah Palin on the ticket. He writes in straight lines with crooked pens to quote Mother Teresa of Calcutta. Before you decide for sure — consider that your lack of a vote may be indirectly responsible for electing one of the most virulent anti-life politicians our country has ever seen.
So how will you feel Mary, when even more babies die under Obama because you didn’t vote for the more pro-life candidate? I’m just trying to understand how you reconcile that aspect of it. Because SURELY, more babies will die under Obama than McCain, but you’d rather THAT happen than to vote for McCain? I think this is why people see it as your own pride.
So who does Bob Enyart and others suggest prolife American’s vote for? Obama? Spoil their ballots?
What DO they advise?
Focus is Crystal clear on McCain…..Note the date.
Tom Minnery in Christianity Today, August 27, 2008
http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctpolitics/2008/08/minnery_disappo.html
What about John McCain? He
Yes, momma liz. If I didn’t know people like you, and Janet, and PIP, and Lyssie, and HisMan, and BB, and many others here, I’d be about ready to run screaming into the night. These people make Patricia look like an open-minded free spirit (no offense).
Ezekl, John McCain has said that he will men on the Supreme Court who will adhere to the Constitution and not legislate from the bench.
He has also changed his mind about issues involving illegal immigrants and drilling for oil because he listened to the people! I believe he has gotten a lot of the pro-life message from the same.
Eileen said:
“I believe Jesus and therefore I trust what JP II has taught.”
So, in other words, you don’t know if JPII ever taught what you claim he taught making it OK for you to vote for McCain who is not pro-life? Is that what you are saying? Because, if you can’t give some evidence to back up your claim that he taught that its good to vote for a guy that allows some abortion over a guy that wants all abortion to be made legal then you are just making stuff up.
Are you making this stuff up or did JPII actually teach what you claim he taught? Give the evidence if there is any.
Zeke,
What do you care ANYWAY?
You hate Catholics, and everybody knows that.
Eileen said, “He has also changed his mind about issues involving illegal immigrants and drilling for oil because he listened to the people! I believe he has gotten a lot of the pro-life message from the same.”
That is because it is election time. He just wants your vote.
He will do well with a Dem senate and congress because he will get all the liberal stuff he likes through.
His immigration stance and Obama’s via their websites are almost identical.
I don’t want a guy who listens to the fickle people, I want someone who knows right and wrong and stands on principle.
The people want whatever benefits them without thought for their neighbor. People are inherently selfish. You aren’t a leader by “listening” to the people. If the people have to tell you what to do, then you might as well be Bill Clinton and focus group every decision you make.
I also think we should differentiate between morally superior and self-righteous. Obviously I believe I’m agreeing with God here, not with Mary (that’s me). So, yeah, I’m specifically seeking the morally superior position (i.e. superior to my own and everyone else’s moral position), which would be God’s moral position.
Call me crazy but that seems like a good idea. ;)
Posted by: MaryContrary at September 5, 2008 3:28 PM
Like I have stated, I believe Jesus when he said that He would send the Holy Spirit as an advocate. So when I need some moral guidance then I can trust what I learn from JPII or now, Benedict XVII
because Jesus doesn’t lie. I guess we are at cross purposes, Mary because we each feel that we are being lead by God.
Jill,
It was a pleasure to meet you in Denver a week ago. I noticed that not many people have commented on the facts given here:
“On April 28, 1990 at the Washington D.C. Rally for Life on video and to hundreds of thousands of Christians, Dr. Dobson stated, “I want to give a pledge to you on a political level… I have determined that for the rest of my life, however long God lets me live on this earth, I will never cast one vote for any man or woman who would kill one innocent baby.” (See pledge video at ARTLaction.com.) James Dobson has violated his pledge by saying he is voting for John McCain, a Republican who has recently authorized funding to kill some children by surgical abortion.
Shouldn’t we give Dr. Dobson a pass on this?
He is a top Christian leader so he shouldn’t be held to this unreasonable standard of not lying to God and the masses in Public. In fact, shouldn’t all Christians be able to invoke God’s name in oaths and not be held accountable? Think about it, there really isn’t any standard that we should all be held to. Christianity is all about love about doing what seems right at the time even if it is wrong because letting less people be murdered is way better. This tough love thing isn’t really love and you will never find examples of tough love in the Bible like this horrible protest. The 2 things I know for sure from God’s word are that it is okay to compromise on God’s command “do not murder” and that Christian leaders are not to be rebuked or corrected. Another biblical fact is that people are basically good and if you look at all our good Christian leaders, you would find that they are so good and smart that abortion is actually going down. Did you know that less than a million kids are being slaughtered every year now! This is a cause for great celebration! Most Republicans really are Christian and would never lie even though they are keeping it secret because thats a wiser way to function in our system and ensure a win! Can’t we all just get along? Thanks for letting me share.
Can you just imagine if Jesus had said “Sure, I’ll hang on that cross…AFTER everyone agrees to believe in me…until then, I’ll just leave you to your own devices.”
He hung on that cross even tho He knew He would not be getting a 100% return on His investment.
He hung for those He COULD save, and hoped that eventually ALL would be saved.
It’s one thing to say you have a plan and a conviction and another to Lord it over those of us who sweat blood fighting the same fight.
You are describing heaven. We are living in reality.
God Bless you and your cause, but you seriously need to come down off that high horse and apologize to every prolifer that has ever stood out in 30 below zero weather for hours, trying to save lives, to every prolifer who is willing put aside their religious differences and join the cause because it’s right.
You want to play that game…Christians are the only true pro lifers????
I got news for you…protestants sold out to abortion a long time ago and are only now joining the good fight. You embraced birth control, divorce, dissent from the Mother Church and abortion…
If any one has the right to say they own the pro life movement it’s the Catholic Church…but of course, She never would. Because it’s not about who’s right…it’s about what’s right.
There is no limit to what a man can do if he doesn’t care who gets the credit…Charles Edward Montague
Eileen further showed her lack of political understanding by saying:
“Ezekl, John McCain has said that he will men on the Supreme Court who will adhere to the Constitution and not legislate from the bench.”
YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!!!!!!!
Right now we have ZERO Supreme Court justices that recognize that human life begins at conception! What do you think is gonna happen in the next 4 years, that 5 Supreme Court justices will die somehow, and then McCain will replace them with justices that recognize that human life begins at conception and the personhood of the preborn?
Good grief! this Supreme Court justice argument is the biggest balogney I ahve ever heard next to the vile “its a state’s rights” justification.
Eileen also said:
“He has also changed his mind about issues involving illegal immigrants and drilling for oil because he listened to the people! I believe he has gotten a lot of the pro-life message from the same.”
His changing on drilling for oil is believable and hopefully that would extend to ANWAR through Palin’s influence, but no one can believe for a second that he is really any different when it comes to illegals and protecting our borders.
Did you miss McCain pandering to illegals when he spoke before La Raza a month ago? You are aware that La Raza is Mexican for “the race”, right? And that it is a pro-illegal immigrant group?
McCain is a liberal Democrat that just happens to have membership in the Republican Party.
Okay, Mary — Erin is helping me to make my point.
I believe that God is us giving a chance with the addition of Sarah Palin on the ticket. He writes in straight lines with crooked pens to quote Mother Teresa of Calcutta. Before you decide for sure — consider that your lack of a vote may be indirectly responsible for electing one of the most virulent anti-life politicians our country has ever seen.”
How is my lack of a vote responsible for anything? Isn’t your vote for McCain responsible for every baby murdered with his approval?
“So how will you feel Mary, when even more babies die under Obama because you didn’t vote for the more pro-life candidate? I’m just trying to understand how you reconcile that aspect of it. Because SURELY, more babies will die under Obama than McCain, but you’d rather THAT happen than to vote for McCain? I think this is why people see it as your own pride.”
I would suppose I’d feel the same as you would feel for those babies murdered under either McCain or Obama. Grieved. The only difference being that if McCain is elected, you’ll share in that guilt.
I’ve already explained how I “reconcile that aspect”. I refuse to be held responsible for murders I’m not responsible for. I’m certainly not about to let that false accusation lead to me actually supporting murder. That’d be crazy.
So who does Bob Enyart and others suggest prolife American’s vote for? Obama? Spoil their ballots?
What DO they advise?”
Well, I can’t speak for them but I say cast your vote for a 100% pro-life candidate. If we win, great. If not, then just as any other lost election you’ve shown the losing side exactly why they lost. Compromise only elects a compromise. If you want, then I suppose I have no suggestion. Either McCain or Obama will do, really.
Ezek13:19 wrote (concerning expelling one’s sister from the church):
God commanded it. Just read 1 CORINTHIANS 5. Its only one chapter 13 verses long, but I am sure you can read that much.
It’s funny that you think I haven’t read the Bible. I’m not a pastor, and I don’t have any degrees in theology, but I’ve certainly read the Bible a time or two.
However, just to be sure, I re-read 1st Corinthians 5 at your urging. Time spent in the Word is never wasted, after all. :)
You’re way overstating your case. Firstly, you don’t know CHChick’s sister, CHChick, or their church. You know only one thing about the situation, and based on that, you urge CHChick to expel her sister from the church. No, no, no…. One must not make those sorts of judgments on nothing but hearsay. Paul came close in his recommendation, but at least he knew the Corinthian church. You know even less than that.
(Also, you’re probably not in the same league as Paul. Please don’t be offended; I’m not in Paul’s league either.)
Are there sins that should cause us to break fellowship with each other? Sure. Flagrant sin can bring shame upon the Body of Christ. This is especially true when someone is using his Christian faith as a cover for decidedly un-Christian behavior. The Catholic practice (not always enforced, sadly) of denying Communion to openly pro-choice leaders is a good example. Even then, though, I would point out that the Catholic Church relies on the local priests and bishops to make that painful decision. And they don’t do it lightly.
How does Jesus want us to handle conflicts within the Church:
“If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.”
(Matthew 18:15-17)
Have you followed this process with James Dobson? If so, how did it go?
“God will condemn you for voting for any candidate that supports abortion as Obama and McCain do. I’d bet my soul on it.”
WOAH WOAH, and once again WOAH.
This is NOT Christianity. And seriously, I would not be “betting my soul” on ANYONE’S salvation. This is just…wow.
I think you need to take a look at what Christ has done. I’m honestly shocked to hear such a thing coming from someone who professes Christ as savior.
anon was me
Oh, Ezek… I don’t know why you are so angry, but you’re not representing the most loving Friend I’ve ever known.
Let’s compare Hitler and McCain. Hitler killed people. At his command, millions died.
Our very own holocaust, abortion, is completely legal. There are good men and women trying to change that, but in the meantime, it is what it is and we have to do what we can.
With Hitler, people died BECAUSE of him.
With McCain, people would die DESPITE him.
Get the difference?
In the end, comparing Hitler to McCain is an ignorant and hateful use of time.
Xalisae, I won’t pretend that I don’t hope you’ll come to know God, but just know that most of us are pretty cool folks. ;)
Go MK and Lauren!
Bob Kyffin, 1:45p, wrote: “p.s. Also, Jill — you’re referring to a 2006 vote, but the release specifically talks about a 2005 vote that sounds very different from what you’re referring to.”
Bob, I wrote, “his vote on a 2006 appropriations bill,” which was correct. He may have voted in 2005, but it was to approve appropriations in 2006. What in that bill are you saying “sounds very different” than what I referred to?
If Obama gets elected we will have about 1.5 million abortions next year. On the other hand if McCain is president we will have only 1.5 million abortion next year.
McCain seems less extreme because he has mastered the language he needs to pull the wool over the eyes of the pro-life Christians who are some of the most easily fooled people on earth.
mk, thank you, we can always count on you to say it better!!!
Lolita, sitting home on your comfy couch eating bon bons again? :)
mk said:
“It’s one thing to say you have a plan and a conviction and another to Lord it over those of us who sweat blood fighting the same fight.”
Yeah, right! “Sweat blood”? Really!? You shouldn’t tell outright lies on here mk.
If you think obeying God’s command You shall not murder and our promoting its consistent practice on here is “lording it over you” (which doesn’t make any sense gramatticly speaking) then you may as well just quit.
You hit upon a deep truth when you asked:
“You want to play that game…Christians are the only true pro lifers?”
Yes, we are since we are concerned not just with life on Earth, but with ETERNAL LIFE. So, yes, in reality we are the only true pro-lifers.
EILEEN WATCH
How many hours or days until Eileen gives us a reference from JPII that shows he taught what she claims he taught.
“I base my decision [to vote for McCain who allows some innocent life to be murdered over Obama who wants more innocent life to be murdered] on what I have read and heard from an encyclical written by Pope John Paul II on civic responsibility”.
Jill! I don’t think that I have ever posted while you have been posting at the same time but let me thank you for all of your wonderful and arduous work! I came to your site after hearing you on Bill Bennett last June.
John McCain would NEVER lie to get a vote. The republicans would NEVER pick Palin as the running mate to manipulate simple minded Christians to vote for them. You people are unbelievable! Republican politicians are nothing like those evil dumbocrats! Fear is the best way to decide how to act. When you think of Obama be very fearful! He will destroy this country! Personally, my fear of Obama informs my vote for McCain. I stand with James Dobson on this one! Who cares about oaths to God by Christian leaders anyway; I am afraid of Obama and I would pull the lever for McCain right now if I could!
Dr. Dobson based his original pro-life pleage and the teachings of Jesus Christ rather than what any pope said.
That’s what makes breaking the pledge so serious.
Ezek,
Funny how you skipped right over that whole divorce, birth control, dissent, abortion part…
The point was…you joined up later. The movement was already going on. Now atheists and agnostics are joining up.
Of course the phrase “lording it over us” doesn’t make sense to you. You can’t hear way up there on your throne.
You also didn’t comment about Jesus dying for EVERYONE, and not waiting til we all agreed to the terms first.
Of course you didn’t. You’re too busy tooting your own horn, putting everyone else down, and grabbing the limelight.
Pathetic.
And you don’t even see it.
It’s hard to argue with someone that knows everything.
CHChick said:
“Let’s compare Hitler and McCain. Hitler killed people. At his command, millions died.
Our very own holocaust, abortion, is completely legal.”
And the war that Nazi Germany waged was not legal under German laws? They elected Hitler democratically you know.
McCain could make abortion ILLEGAL across the nation and shut down all abortion clinics with one executive order if he wanted to, but he doesn’t want to because then he wouldn’t be able to continue to use the ongoing abortion holocaust as a political football to use in duping dumb Christians.
You said:
”
Xalisae, I won’t pretend that I don’t hope you’ll come to know God, but just know that most of us are pretty cool folks.”
By “cool” you apparently mean weak and accepting of politicians that condone killing the innocent.
I think I’ll bow out of this conversation. I expect this from the other side, but coming out of the mouths of alleged Christians is just too sickening for my tastes.
It’s a shame too, because much of what you do is good. If only you didn’t sully the whole thing boosting your egos and putting down others.
You wouldn’t even exist if it weren’t for the Catholic Church. Really sad.
by “cool” I was being friendly and saying that most christians understand how to show the love of Christ, regardless of where someone is at in life. Kind of like what Jesus did, ya know?
Honestly, the impression I’m getting here, hand over fist, is that some Christians just aren’t welcome at this table. So be it.
I’m beginning to see it’s a table I don’t want to sit at, really.
The Truth is hard for some to take.
Yes, Mary, if you can’t have everything your way, stomp off and have a tantrum. You seem to be doing that beautifully already.
No Mary,
What you are getting is not that we are opposed to dialogue or the way you guys are proceeding on the pro life front, but that you have come on here and insulted many of us…either for being Catholic, Non-religious, or not doing it “your way”…you came in on the attack and when you were attacked back you wonder why.
Yes, this is a table. It’s what we do here.
Sit down as people to people, discuss our views, treat each other with respect…
What you have done is come in here and call us all useless, hypocritical, unchristian sinners.
Now how would you like us to respond? By passing the salt?
Jill,
Lolita, Ezek 13:19, MaryContrary, Darrell B and Bob Kyffin have made some brilliant arguments here. I hope you will take some time to ponder the numerous and horrible effects of Christians who compromise on murder and publicly break their oaths to God based on fear not faith.
mk said:
“You also didn’t comment about Jesus dying for EVERYONE, and not waiting til we all agreed to the terms first.”
The timing of when Jesus died for the sins of the world has nothing to do with what we’re talking about. His act was not based on anyone voting for Him to do it. He did it willingly APART FROM any other person’s desire or will save His Father’s. Its a free gift, not an administration that makes and defend’s laws on Earth that results in the murder of 1 million+ American babies each year.
Voting for pro-abort John McCain is NOT like accepting Jesus Christ as savior mk. Jesus Christ is not = with the Re-publican party. That is what you are saying – get with the Republican Party and its pro-abortion candidates now before they do what they ought to be doing which is defending innocent life. And that will never happen because the pro-life movement won’t put the pressure needed to influence the repubs to change.
WE ARE MORE LIKE JESUS CHRIST because WE, unlike yourselves, are obeying God in the face of tremendous darkness and opposition by the blind religious leaders who like you promote voting for the least pro-abortion choice among the two candidates the major parties and media put out there.
God is NOT working through the Re-publican party. Its finished and will die out after McCain extends the damage that Bush has done if he is elected.
How many hours or days until Eileen gives us a reference from JPII that shows he taught what she claims he taught.
Read Evangelium Vitae. (Hopefully I spelled it correctly!)
Dont forget condemned to hell too, MK!
That one was a gem as well.
“McCain could make abortion ILLEGAL across the nation and shut down all abortion clinics with one executive order ”
It would be very difficult because it would not clarify an existing law, and is not expressly stated in the constitution. Also, congress could override the order.
There’s also the fact that this is simply NOT how our government works. Althought our governement has been hijacked by the Judicial branch legislating from the bench, I do not think we should excuse legislation from the white house. We must outlaw abortion through the means layed out in our constitution, not try to circumvent democracy.
God is NOT working through the Re-publican party. Its finished and will die out after McCain extends the damage that Bush has done if he is elected.
Posted by: Ezek13:19 at September 5, 2008 4:27 PM
What damage has President Bush done? I think he has done a considerable amount for the pro-life movement. God works in very mysterious ways, do you “pretend to know the mind of God”, Ezekl?
Lauren, so glad you made that point.
I really can’t wait to vote for McCain/Palin now! Woo hoo!
NoMurderIsOk, 4:26p, wrote: “Lolita, Ezek 13:19, MaryContrary, Darrell B and Bob Kyffin have made some brilliant arguments here. I hope you will take some time to ponder the numerous and horrible effects of Christians who compromise on murder and publicly break their oaths to God based on fear not faith.”
Sorry, NMIO, this isn’t just theory to me. You likely know I’ve held an aborted baby. I’ll save every one I can when I can. That’s not compromise.
Bobby, Elizabeth, Eileen and others have also made some brilliant arguments. I hope you too will take some time to ponder how insulting others and causing division can have horrible effects on the pro life movement. Until you learn some respect, you might find your names in the newspapers, but I doubt you’ll find them in the Book of Life.
In today’s Gospel, Jesus tells his followers that they must take up their cross and follow him. Peter is scandalized at the thought of a suffering Messiah. Sometimes we want a faith that shouts down anyone who dares to disagree. But would it profit us to gain that power at the expense of a multitude of fragile souls? Patience and tolerance may be part of OUR cross…Diane M. Houdek
lauren said:
“This is NOT Christianity. And seriously, I would not be “betting my soul” on ANYONE’S salvation. This is just…wow.”
When I use the word condemn I am using it in the same way that Paul used it in Romans 3:8.
And [why] not [say,] “Let us do evil that good may come”? — as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.
This is what YOU GUYS ARE DOING when you say that God would want us to vote for McCain. You are doing and promoting evil “that good may come”. Where “good” in this case is McCain is slightly less pro-abortion and will murder slightly less babies.
BOTTOM LINE: When you promote voting for a pro-abort like McCain you are promoting evil that good may come. And your condemnation is just.
We must promote good and only good and we know that Alan Keyes is pro-life and won’t condone the killing of innocent persons.
To those who are somehow offend by the open rebuke of James Dobson… do you really not see the hypocrisy of your position.
You are more offended by those who would confront a sin, the actual perpetrator of the sin.
Although Dobson’s sin was public, there were many efforts to confront him privately, he ignored them and refused to repent. Because we do love James Dobson and desire his repentance, we have chosen to openly confront his sin. This is the biblical way.
If Dobson would actually repent, we would rejoice because, we love him and because he has such a huge influence on the Christian community for good.
When I man with his influence sets a bad example the ripple effects are massive.
Ezek says
“WE ARE MORE LIKE JESUS CHRIST ”
Ok, see right here is where we start seeing issues of pride.
How can you presume to be “more like Jesus” than anyone else? We are all sinners, we are all very far away from the prefection of our Savior. We are fighting to save the lives of children in ways that have actually reduced abortion. It has not stopped it, but at least we are making an effort. There is no chance that we can have a universal abortion ban right now. We are making progress, and things are getting better, but we still have alot of work to do.
Look at it like this. Legalized abortion is like a balloon that we’re trying to pop. Every new law or new justice that protects unborn children/puts roadblocks infront of abortion are like filling the balloon with air. Once we can get enough air in the balloon, it will pop. The purists simply puff the same bit of air into the balloon, only to have it let out again when the law doesn’t pass. The balloon will never pop like this, and abortion will remain legal.
Ezek13:19 … any update on how your Matthew 18 confrontation with James Dobson went? Surely you followed the commands of Jesus before you started your public attacks against him….
To remind you:
“If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.”
(Matthew 18:15-17)
Jill Stanek at September 5, 2008 4:37 PM said:… Sorry, NMIO, this isn’t just theory to me. You likely know I’ve held an aborted baby. I’ll save every one I can when I can. That’s not compromise.
Jill, it’s so easy to debate theoretics, but your statement pulled me up short and made me remember why I’m here in the first place. Thank you for all you do the save the babies.
Eileen asked:
“What damage has President Bush done?”
That you would even ask such a question shows that you don’t know what has happened or what is going on.
Bush went in and increased government spending, did next to nothing to help the pro-life movement, made huge blunders in the war in Iraq and the Middle East, practically ignored the ongoing problem with border security and illegals, etc.
Bush gets an F whe it comes to BORDERS, LANGUAGE and CULTURE.
Maybe within the next 10 years or so the conservative movement will recover, but its doubtful. It will almost certainly take a new party to make that happen.
You said:
“I think he [Bush] has done a considerable amount for the pro-life movement.”
Like what Eileen?
Can you name one thing or is this another example of your thinking that something is the case without being able to show evidence that its the case like with the alleged JPII teaching that says vote for the lesser of two evils?
I’m still voting for McCain/Palin, how about you guys?!!
No one on this board that considers McCain a proabort has said who they will vote for. What are the options if you don’t vote for McCain?
We must promote good and only good and we know that Alan Keyes is pro-life and won’t condone the killing of innocent persons.
Posted by: Ezek13:19 at September 5, 2008 4:39 PM
I love Alan Keyes but he does not have a legitimate chance at winning this election. Now go read “Evangelium Vitae”.
We must promote good and only good and we know that Alan Keyes is pro-life and won’t condone the killing of innocent persons.
But don’t you see that you are doing “good” so that Evil will come?
Here’s a great example.
My little nephew has a metabolic disorder that makes him deathly allergic to his mother’s milk (among various other things). In the beginning she was being a “good” mother and nursing him. Little did they know that this was slowly killing him. After they discovered that her milk was behind his illness, they switched to a special formula. Should she have continued to “do what was best” and breast feed even though it would kill her child, or do what is not so good and give him formula and thus, life?
I think that it is obvious what the choice should be. You claim to be without varish because you didn’t vote for Obama, there is also guilt from complacancy. Sometimes a non-action is bad as an action.
You dismiss the fire analogy, but your reasoning isn’t sound.
You claim that by voting for McCain we helped start the fire. The problem is, we didn’t “start the fire”. The fire was already burning. A better analogy is that we are using water to put out the fire, while you are waiting for a magical compound that will immiately end the fire. Meanwhile, we’re trying to rush in and save what we can, while you continue to stand by and wait.
Naaman said:
“Ezek13:19 … any update on how your Matthew 18 confrontation with James Dobson went? Surely you followed the commands of Jesus before you started your public attacks against him….”
Here is some documented correspondence right here. Just click on the link and read.
http://kgov.com/docs/DobsonAbandonsPledgeLtr.html#DobsonPersonalLtr
You can get a full listing of correspondence from Bob Enyart. He and a group showed Tom Minnery of Focus On The Family the DVD Focus On The Strategy so they could have a chance to respond to it.
There have been numerous contacts long before the open letter to James Dobson was published and before this demonstration yesterday was held. All the way back to early in 2006.
Here’s a general question – for those followers of Christ who disagree with voting for McCain-Palin: does being fully obedient to Christ mean sitting out this election and ignoring the authorities God has established here on earth?
What does that mean when we are in fact the authorities via our votes?
I’d like your respectful perspective.
Patricia asked:
“No one on this board that considers McCain a proabort has said who they will vote for. What are the options if you don’t vote for McCain?”
I’ve said at least TWICE on here that I am voting for ALAN KEYES because he will not kill even one innocent person. Because he is the best guy I know to vote for.
That you would care MORE about being on “a winning team” as if this were some sort of damn sporting event shows where your heart is.
Eileen said:
“I love Alan Keyes but he does not have a legitimate chance at winning this election.”
God never commanded us to vote for someone that is “likely to win” which is what you care about most. You care about being on the winning team more than doing what is right in obedience to Jesus Christ.
Eileen said:
“Now go read “Evangelium Vitae”.”
I have closely and thoughtfully read it. You still need to point out where you “think” JPII taught that we should vote for the candidate that will murder the least amount of children instead of the candidate that will not murder any children.
Show us where JPII taught to do evil that good may come. If you can do that then I will gladly condemn him for teaching such an evil doctrine as Paul did in Romans 3:8. But, did he actually teach it? If he did then show us specificly by quoting him where he taught that.
What the…?!
Elizabeth: “Yes, Mary, if you can’t have everything your way, stomp off and have a tantrum. You seem to be doing that beautifully already.”
My way? I came here to explain why some Christians, like me, feel disillusioned with this movement. As I’ve said already. I’ve explained myself. What exactly have I demanded of anyone else? Show me.
And this: “Dont forget condemned to hell too, MK! That one was a gem as well.”
This was clearly in reference to me, as it was aimed at mk’s response to me. Where did I say anything even remotely like this?
mk:“What you are getting is not that we are opposed to dialogue or the way you guys are proceeding on the pro life front, but that you have come on here and insulted many of us…either for being Catholic, Non-religious, or not doing it “your way”…you came in on the attack and when you were attacked back you wonder why.
Yes, this is a table. It’s what we do here.
Sit down as people to people, discuss our views, treat each other with respect…
What you have done is come in here and call us all useless, hypocritical, unchristian sinners.
Now how would you like us to respond? By passing the salt?”
Please give me a clear example of my insulting anyone, even mentioning Catholicism, attacking anyone, treating anyone disrespectfully or calling anyone useless, hypocritical or an unchristian sinner.
I was discouraged before. Now I’m outright angry. And all the more convinced I don’t belong here. This is ridiculous!
Are the Guidelines on the side just for show? I was silly enough to go by them, thinking they were a nice idea.
lauren said:
“There is no chance that we can have a universal abortion ban right now.”
According to your fatally flawed strategy that is true. In fact, we can NEVER EVER make abortion illegal by promoting the passage of laws that end with “….and then you can kill the baby”. Its not gonna happen that way. Only personhood amendments can bring about the end of abortion in each state and in the USA.
You claimed:
“We are making progress, and things are getting better, but we still have alot of work to do.”
NO ITS NOT!
Every time you and your kind succeed in passing a law such as a parental notification law or some other law that ends with “….and then you can kill the baby” you take one step forward and two steps back BECAUSE you make abortion in that case seem MORE REASONABLE which will result in keeping it legal.
The only thing going for the pro-life movement at the moment are personhood amendments that have a shot as succeeding in various states along with success in sidewalk counseling efforts.
Chris asked:
“does being fully obedient to Christ mean sitting out this election and ignoring the authorities God has established here on earth?”
Who exactly are you talking about? The mainstream media? The Republican Party? The corporations that give the RNC and McCain money? Those are the main authorities influencing the USA.
“What does that mean when we are in fact the authorities via our votes?”
This is why “democracy” is bad.
Better to have one tyrant 3,000 miles away then 3,000 tyrants one mile away. –Mel Gibson in The Patriot
What we have right now is a SUPER WEAK church and a pretty weak pro-life movement that is eager to compromise on innocent life as long as a Republican will pander to them for a few months before going back to being a pragmatic pro-abort like McCain.
If the pro-life movement would be united in its opposition to laws that end with “….and then you can kill the baby” and in its promotion of state personhood amendments then we could really make some headway in the USA.
was growing up while the PBA debate was raging. My entire generation– the most pro-life generation since before Roe– grew up with our first impression of abortion being something in the news called “partial-birth abortion”. It was horrible. It was gruesome. It made us ill, and we realized what abortion was. For the years that it was in the public eye, the debate over PBA opened the eyes of men and women, and caused “abortion” to have a bad taste in the mouth of young adults who otherwise might not have thought much about it. Certainly that’s true for me.
I’m not interested in making abortion illegal so much as I’m interested in making sure unborn children aren’t killed. I’m not naive enough to think that making it illegal(while my ultimate goal) will end all abortions. As long as people don’t have a heart for life, there will be abortion in our society.
Pro-life laws (regardless of what they end with) change hearts, and educate the public, which pushes us all farther to abolishing this blight on our world.
I can’t tell you how many people I know who are only pro-life because of the efforts of incrementalists who took small steps and educated people who meant well but didn’t understand the issue. Passing small laws means more opportunities to tell people about life and abortion, and bring more people to table to discuss it.
I stand by the argument that there are wonderful pro-choice people out there, who just don’t understand. It’s our job to show them, in love, the truth about abortion, and I welcome any opportunity to do so.
Ezek says “Only personhood amendments can bring about the end of abortion in each state and in the USA.”
…And there is no chance of this happening anytime soon, at least not until Roe V. Wade is overturned.
The only way to make any real legal progress in the pro-life movement is to overturn Roe V. wade.
Here’s the thing, that is NOT going to happen w/ Obama. He want’s FOCA passed which would cement abortion. If McCain is elected, we don’t lose ground. If Obama is elected we slide into a very, very deep pit.
I agree that we should push personhood ammendments and I have sidewalk counceled, but I also believe we MUST do everything we can to keep Obama out of office.
First of all Ezek. before you get all creepy hostile on me, I can’t vote in your election because I’m Canadian, ok?
I’m not exactly sure how your voting system works in the US but here’s how I function in our parliamentary system.
I start with my Member of Parliament and I vote for the person MOST prolife. Fortunately for me I had a choice in the last election of voting for a Catholic Conservative (Conservative party is not really prolife party) who was totally prolife on every issue one could imagine. This is the first time I’ve ever had this happen. THe sad thing is that in my federal riding, another candidate ran for the Family Alliance Party (prolife – basically one issue party)which had absolutely no hope in hell of winning election in our riding, nor even of gaining a seat in our Parliament. He too was prolife. This candidate received 517 votes, the exact number of votes the prolife, Conservative candidate lost by to the proabort Liberal man! When I asked people why they voted for the Alliance Party candidate I was told that it was because the prolife Conservative candidate had no hope of changing things!
So instead of having one more prolife member of Parliament we have one more proabort member instead. Is this right? Are not these stupid people to blame for helping to elect (in an indirect manner) a MP who has sided against the current Conservative government on many family issues, has a proabort voting record and done much harm to families. It just doesn’t make sense to me.
The same thing appears to be happening in the US and believe me, ALL prolifers whether they be incrementalists or not will reap what they sow and you will have very FEW politicians in government sympathetic and willing to work towards a culture of life in your country.
What good will it do you to elect a few prolife people but have the majority of people in power who are hard-core proaborts?THey will make the laws and entrench abortion and many other pagan liberal behaviours forever. It has happened in Canada already.
We can vote for the lesser of two evils and by my books, this is McCain. If your vote causes Obama to win you will regret it and will deserve what you get.
AND BTW, I don’t care much about winning teams, I care about creating a society that has a culture of life. Do you really think Obama will be the man to do this?
lauren unwisely said:
“But don’t you see that you are doing “good” so that Evil will come [by voting for pro-life ALAN KEYES instead of pro-abort John McCain]?”
God never ever asks us to consider the negative effects of doing good. If he did then I am sure you can find such an instance of Him talking like that. Can you? Cause I haven’t.
In fact, I am pretty sure that God hates your rationale. He hates any wicked way and what you are saying is a wicked way if I ever saw one. Claiming that we should not support a guy who promotes Godly policies and protects the innocent and instead support a guy that promotes the opposite is wickedness.
2 Chronicles 7:14 “if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.”
Do right and risk the consequences.
Only personhood amendments can bring about the end of abortion in each state and in the USA.
You are deluding yourself if you think this is what will make abortion end. ABortion will never end as long as we have a majority of the population who have a contraceptive mentality and live the accompanying lifestyle. Abortion will always have to be an option available for this kind of life. It takes a conversion of heart for abortion to end and for people to be open to the possiblity of having a baby. This kind of thinking is completely at odds with the contraceptive mentality.
Is Alan Keyes committing a sin by running for President, since he might be stealing pro-life votes away from McCain, and thereby handing over the Presidency to Obama?
I don’t think Mr Keyes is committing a sin! But he may be doing a great deal of harm if he siphons off the prolife vote and the numbers are large enough to give Obama a victory. What then will this accomplish?
Ezek,
God has given us examples of flawed leaders. Look at David. Were we in the position to lift him into power, would you condem us for supporting someone who was, quite literally, a murderer?
God HIMSELF called David a man after His own heart.
Leaders are flawed. However, I will place my vote with the person who can do the most good. Placing a vote for Keyes will do absolutely NOTHING to help anyone. God speaks of sins of omission in Romans 7:19 “For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do” KJV
Here, you are not doing good by voting for Keyes, you are doing nothing. By doing nothing you are supporting the the “evil” of obama. I am not going to tell you that you are going to Hell for this, but I think your reasoning is vastly flawed.
lauren claimed:
“Ezek says “Only personhood amendments can bring about the end of abortion in each state and in the USA….And there is no chance of this happening anytime soon, at least not until Roe V. Wade is overturned.”
Roe v Wade is crap that is based on nothing. As Harvard law professor Laurence Tribe said:
“One of the most curious things about Roe is that, behind its own verbal smokescreen, the substantive judgment on which it rests is nowhere to be found.”
Putting personhood on state ballots is effective and will work even if it has to go through some legal challenges. If it couldn’t work then we wouldn’t be doing it.
You said:
“The only way to make any real legal progress in the pro-life movement is to overturn Roe V. wade. Here’s the thing, that is NOT going to happen w/ Obama.”
HA! Its not happening with McCain either! His wife Cindy just said that she doesn’t want to see Roe v Wade overturned….maybe….if she knows what Roe v Wade actually is about. Transcript of recent interview with Couric here.
http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/09/cindy_john_mccain_split_on_roe.html
Anyways, McCain has no plan to have Roe v Wade overturned as president. Een if he wants it overturned he has no plans to and is big on “state’s rights” when it comes to murdering babies. He calls it a state’s right issue which is vile.
That’s why I am voting for KEYES!
Patricia said:
“I don’t care much about winning teams, I care about creating a society that has a culture of life. Do you really think Obama will be the man to do this?”
The one big positive to having Obama elected as president is that his failure would silence the black racists and other groups that play the race card because one of their own had a chance and he messed up.
And in those 4 years we can prepare and support a truly good pro-life candidate to run for president in 2012 instead of this lame old man John McCain.
The momentum that would come from that would be better than 4 years of disappointment from McCain. That’s what it will be. Huge disappointment.
Um, Ezek. I know that Roe V. Wade is increadibly flawed…that’s why it is so vulnerable to being overturned.
Releasing it to the states would set the stage for a human rights ammendment. As it now stands, a human rights ammendment would be found unconstitutional.
Wow. So nothing? The tactic here is just to slander anyone who disagrees? Even the volunteer mods do this?
No wonder I’m having a hard time finding a seat at this table. There are none.
lauren said:
“God has given us examples of flawed leaders. Look at David.”
Good friggin grief! God picked David BEFORE he committed any horrible sins. Got it? David wasn’t democratically elected and he did not have to commit adultery or any other sin.
you said:
“Here, you are not doing good by voting for Keyes, you are doing nothing.”
NO NO NO!!!! YOU HAVE IT BACKWARDS!!
By voting for McCain you are doing nothing. You are all doing evil in voting for pro-abort McCain. Just because most people are doing evil in voting for a clearly deficient candidate like McCain does not make the good of our voting for a great and Godly man like Keyes bad in some way.
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil
The one big positive to having Obama elected as president is that his failure would silence the black racists and other groups that play the race card because one of their own had a chance and he messed up.
It doesn’t seem to me that race is a big issue in this election. In the meantime you will have as a President some one who has EMPHATICALLY stated he WILL sign FOCA into law! Is this What you want?
And in those 4 years we can prepare and support a truly good pro-life candidate to run for president in 2012 instead of this lame old man John McCain.
And this will never happen. Because there will always be prolifers out there who will not like a candidate for some reason or other. To my mind this thinking is extremely wishful.
Ezek says “The one big positive to having Obama elected as president is that his failure would silence the black racists and other groups that play the race card because one of their own had a chance and he messed up.”
Ok, I’m not one to play the race card AT ALL, but this is really racist. “One of their own” really?
As for the rest of this, you are assuming that Obama will not be able to inflict irreperable damage to the prolife movement during his time in office. He has promised FOCA as his very FIRST item in office.
Here’s what Obama (and by extention, you) wants:
“(b) Prohibition of Interference- A government may not–
(1) deny or interfere with a woman’s right to choose–
(A) to bear a child;
(B) to terminate a pregnancy prior to viability; or
(C) to terminate a pregnancy after viability where termination is necessary to protect the life or health of the woman; or
(2) discriminate against the exercise of the rights set forth in paragraph (1) in the regulation or provision of benefits, facilities, services, or information.
(c) Civil Action- An individual aggrieved by a violation of this section may obtain appropriate relief (including relief against a government) in a civil action.
SEC. 5. SEVERABILITY.
If any provision of this Act, or the application of such provision to any person or circumstance, is held to be unconstitutional, the remainder of this Act, or the application of such provision to persons or circumstances other than those as to which the provision is held to be unconstitutional, shall not be affected thereby.
SEC. 6. RETROACTIVE EFFECT.
This Act applies to every Federal, State, and local statute, ordinance, regulation, administrative order, decision, policy, practice, or other action enacted, adopted, or implemented before, on, or after the date of enactment of this Act”
So remember that ban on PBA…Gone. Any future restriction on abortion…unconstitutional.
Oh, Ezek.. I don’t understand why you’re so angry. We have a wonderful God who loves us, who gives us reason to be joyful. Why do you insist in speaking harshly, as opposed to in love?
Mary, I’m sorry you feel that way. Clearly this issue brings strong emotions to the forefront, and it’s often difficult to discern over writing what spirit something is written in. There’s always a place for discussion, but your previous posts have seemed very disrespectful. I apologize if I read it in a way you did not intend. If you have something to contribute, please do.
“Good friggin grief! God picked David BEFORE he committed any horrible sins. Got it? David wasn’t democratically elected and he did not have to commit adultery or any other sin.”
Yes, Ezek God did choose David before he fell into sin, but God also knew that he would fall into sin and allowed him to remain a leader.
My point is that there will never be a perfect leader, but we have a responsiblity to do the most we can do to protect the lives of the unborn. Simply “sitting out in protest” does NOT help anyone.
By voting for McCain we are standing in front of Obama. By voting for Keyes we would be standing beside him.
Ezek13:19 Are you a citizen of the USA?
Mary, I may be wrong but I belive the post was refering to Ezek’s behavior, not yours. She has a reputation for being rather, shall we say harsh, to other pro-lifers and less than gracious. I haven’t read all of your posts, so I’m not certain that you haven’t said anything, but I don’t think that comment was directed specifically to you.
well said Lauren.
My point is that there will never be a perfect leader, but we have a responsiblity to do the most we can do to protect the lives of the unborn. Simply “sitting out in protest” does NOT help anyone.
By voting for McCain we are standing in front of Obama. By voting for Keyes we would be standing beside him.
Posted by: lauren at September 5, 2008 6:31 PM
Lauren: I completely agree with you (if I could vote in your election!!!)
I’ve seen this happen in Canada and in my own riding as I already commented. It is truly heartbreaking.
Actually I think by voting for Keyes you would be standing behind Obama.
lauren claimed:
“but God also knew that he would fall into sin and allowed him to remain a leader”
NO HE DIDN’T! If God knew for certain that David would commit specific sins at specific moments then David would have had NO CHOICE in whether to commit sin or not in the future.
The future is not some static settled reality for God or man. Otherwise, God would not speak like this which is what God actually thinks and believes if you believe God’s word.
Isaiah 38:1-5 Isaiah 38:1 In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die and not live.’ ” 2 Then Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the LORD, 3 and said, “Remember now, O LORD, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done [what is] good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly. 4 And the word of the LORD came to Isaiah, saying, 5 “Go and tell Hezekiah, ‘Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will add to your days fifteen years.
And God wouldn’t say things like this in response to sin that had occured
Genesis 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every intent of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
lauren @ 6:31 PM
lauren – I have to disagree with you – there is a perfect leader, but currently He is sitting at the right hand of the Father. ;-)
—
What seems to be missing is God’s sense of mercy and grace as well as His purposes.
I could rightly and justly ask if those who are accusing others if they are fulfilling the whole law. No matter how well one argues from Scripture none of us here is Christ. I would imagine such in-fighting grieves the Holy Spirit immensely.
Ezek13:19 – Do you have a God-given name that’s also written on the birth certificate of the country you were born in?
Chris, you got me there!
I agree that there needs to grace in all of this. In fact, I do understand where the “all or nothing” folks are coming from. I disagree, but I don’t think they’re “wicked” or anything of the sort.
However, I think that they have become prideful and rather vicious in thier attacks on those who disagree. That is what I am trying to stand against here, but I certainly do not want to get into a battle of stone throwing.
You are truly brainless lauren. How in the hell oculd you claim that anything I have said is racist when I am just repeating what blacks have said.
You said:
“Ok, I’m not one to play the race card AT ALL, but this is really racist. “One of their own” really?”
Yeah, lauren. Really! Are you unaware that lots of black people are voting for Obama solely because he is “black”? Do you deny this? Because they keep saying it OVER AND OVER AGAIN! They even use those words “one of our own” when talking about it!
You also said:
“My point is that there will never be a perfect leader”
Wrong. Its NOT HARD to find someone that is 100% pro-life that we can have run for president. There’s TONS OF EM across the USA that have run for governor, state office and even the national congress and senate.
ALAN KEYES is a perfect leader if there ever was one. That’s why I am voting for him. I am voting for the “perfect leader” that you pretend does not exist.
Actually, I think you may have meant something different than what you said. You may have really meant something like “We will never have a perfect leader from the Re-publican Party to vote for”. Is that right? That the Re-publican Party and the mainstream media will never promote the kind of candidate that we want.
That is probably what you really mean.
Still voting for ALAN KEYES because right and wrong is not determined by numbers.
Chchick it sounds like you are very passionate for life. Me too. Do you think that a law like “giving the baby pain medication” before aborting him, is a good law? I don’t. Because I think that in the weeks, months, years to come, that may influence some young women to, now, kill their babies, because their baby won’t feel any pain. Do you think that’s possible? Do you think, there are any sidewalk counselors who have ever saved, both mother and child, by informing the mother, her baby is going to feel pain? And, do you think a law, requiring a 24-hour waiting period, before you kill the baby, strengthens the “personhood argument” for the pre-born baby, or weakens it? Sorry, I don’t mean to go on. But, one more. Do all the pro-life laws that regulate abortion, make abortion seem more “reasonable” to the American public? That part of the population, who don’t really have a dog in this hunt? Thanks for your patience.
Actually, I think you may have meant something different than what you said. You may have really meant something like “We will never have a perfect leader from the Re-publican Party to vote for”. Is that right? That the Re-publican Party and the mainstream media will never promote the kind of candidate that we want.
THis sort of thing has been tried in Canada and it doesn’t work. You can’t run a one-issue candidate in federal election in any western country. Unless of course you have a situation like Brazil where the majority of the population is Catholic, doesn’t support abortion and so forth. But in the multi-cultural societies like Canada and the US this won’t fly, IMO.
Ezek, your vote for Keyes is really a vote for Obama, since it will lead to no where.
lauren said:
“So remember that ban on PBA…Gone.”
GOOD RIDDANCE TO IT!! Its a vile law that won’t save one single baby from being murdered!
Go read it and see how vile it is. It just makes ONE PROCEDURE illegal and leaves 8-9 other late-term abortion procedures legal.
FYI – Focus On The Family lied when they claimed that it made all late-term abortions illegal. If you want the evidence they said that then listen to the recording of the phone call here http://www.kgov.com/files/audio/bel/2007/FotFamilyStafferRePBAbanFullLength.mp3
Ezek, regarding David.
Even if God did not know the exact way he would fall, he knew that David was, by nature, sinful, as are we all. God calls sinful, imperfect people to leadership. It is up to us to use discernment to decide which course of action will best further the cause of life.
Ezek, BTW, God did KNOW that David would sin. God is all-knowing. The mystery of it is how free will comes into play.
lauren argued against no one saying:
“God calls sinful, imperfect people to leadership.”
No one is arguing otherwise.
You said:
“It is up to us to use discernment to decide which course of action will best further the cause of life.”
The course is always and has always been to ONLY SUPPORT someone that is fully pro-life and not just a panderer trying to get support to be elected as McCain is.
None of this is complicated. Just stop supporting pro-abort candidates and they will HAVE TO change to satisfy the base.
particia claimed:
“God did KNOW that David would sin. God is all-knowing. The mystery of it is how free will comes into play.”
False. That belief is pagan philosophy (i.e. Aristotle). Its demonstrably opposed to what God says and how He acts in the bible.
Jeremiah 3:7 “I thought, `After she has done all these things she will return to Me’; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
Exodus 13:17 Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them [by] way of the land of the Philistines, although that [was] near; for God said, “Lest perhaps the people change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.”
Jeremiah 26:3 ‘Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings.’
The future is largely made up of unknowable events because they do not exist until we make free decisions and create the future. There are multiple futures that can come about and I am fighting for a future that has no legal abortion in the USA.
Larkyn,
I can understand your points, but I’ve also volunteered on initiative campaigns and I’ve talked to people who would have otherwise never really talked about abortion. The lack of education is ASTOUNDING. People like us who are passionate enough to even be commenting on a blog like this are often forgetful that there so many people who don’t even have a basic grasp of what Roe did. The vast majority prefer to not think about abortion, and when they do, they try to justify it with thoughts of the mothers life in danger, etc. The opportunities provided by these laws to keep abortion in the public consciousness keeps people uncomfortable, which is exactly how they should feel if they support abortion “rights”.
Yes, I absolutely believe that these laws save lives. I’ve talked to people who have made decisions for life because of the education provided by these laws. Whatever saves a life.
Here are the options: We can overturn Roe v Wade which would send it back to the states and we would then have fifty battles on our hand or we can push for an amendment which requires 2/3 of the House, 2/3 of the Senate, and 3/4 of the states to ratify. I apologize if my facts are wrong, but I’m 99% certain they’re correct.
Unfortunately, neither of those options seem plausible in our country right now. In the meantime, I’ll save who I can where I can to the best of my ability. That’s all I can do. I educate, I pray, I vote.
None of this is complicated. Just stop supporting pro-abort candidates and they will HAVE TO change to satisfy the base.
Posted by: Ezek13:19 at September 5, 2008 7:11 PM
There isn’t a big enough voter base for this to happen, not now and not in the forseeable future. There is NO need for politicians to change on abortion because it is an acceptable part of life today for most people. You have to build the base by changing peoples attitudes to abortion and make it politically desirable for a candidate to be prolife.
Ezek, but it is complicated because our lack of support for an imperfect candidate may catapult a down right nefarious candidate into office. Our actions do not simply exist in a vacuum. A vote for Keyes, is not simply a vote for Keyes, but also a vote FOR Obama. You can not pretend that your actions do not have ramifications. A McCain presidency will not hurt the pro-life cause. You are setting a ball in motion that will most certainly push obama twoards the presidency. That is most certainly an action.
“God did KNOW that David would sin. God is all-knowing. The mystery of it is how free will comes into play.”
False. That belief is pagan philosophy (i.e. Aristotle). Its demonstrably opposed to what God says and how He acts in the bible.
NOPE. You are wrong. God is outside of time and he knows all.
I, in good conscience, can’t vote for someone who thinks it is tolerable to kill the preborn.
When Ezek casts his vote for Keyes, and McCain wins, then his vote did not put Obama in office. So it makes no sense, then, that the integrity of his vote depends solely on the outcome of the election.
“If God knew for certain that David would commit specific sins at specific moments then David would have had NO CHOICE in whether to commit sin or not in the future.”
Zeke, are you an open theist?
Pat claimed contrary to all evidence:
“You are wrong. God is outside of time and he knows all.”
Time is not a “thing” that anyone or anything can be “outside of”. Its not an entity. You’re reifying time. That’s bad.
Time is a construct that describes our existence. To be “outside of time” means nonexistence. So, God is with us at the present and God exists. God has a history (I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) and a future (I will….).
Mr Bambino
What is an open theist? If I may so inquire….
CC, a vote for Keyes is definitly a vote FOR obama…regardless of if he wins.
Hi Patricia. Basically, an open theist is someone who believes as Zeke does that God does not have certain knowledge of the future. The future is “open” even with God’s knowledge. This takes care of the problem of free will vs. God’s sovereignty as well as other things. Calvinists venomously oppose open theism, and it’s a pretty hot topic in the Calvinist world right now. It isn’t really a Catholic issue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism
ok. that’s very interesting…
Ah, I didn’t know this; so according to the Wiki article, Bob Enyart is a very strong proponent of open theism, so that makes sense…
yes, I just read that too!
Lauren, you need to write a letter to Keyes and ask him to step down because he clearly doesn’t know he’s campaigning for Obama.
CC, I’m sure Keyes is aware of the impact his campaign will have in the general election. In his mind he has decided that his cause is worth taking the risk of an Obama presidency.
I believe this is called “doubling down”. :) Of course, it wouldn’t really be “doubling down” since even if he “wins” he doesn’t really win the presidency, but rather just possible support for his cause.
LTL, (lots to learn)
So you have had a few days to thing about it.
What species of embryo/fetus was in your mother’s uterus when she was pregnant with you?
affectionately
your knuckle dragging neanderthal, not bitter, but still clinging to Jesus and my guns
Then if I’m pro-choice and I vote for Keyes, then I’ve voted for McCain. By this methodology, the value of one person’s vote is not in WHO they vote for, but who the voter is.
Is every vote for a Third Party is a loser vote? What does that say about someone running for President who isn’t a Democrat or a Republican?
“A particular problem of conscience can arise in cases where
a legislative vote would be decisive for the passage of a
more restrictive law, aimed at limiting the number of
authorized abortions, in place of a more permissive law
already passed or ready to be voted on. Such cases are not
infrequent. It is a fact that while in some parts of the
world there continue to be campaigns to introduce laws
favouring abortion, often supported by powerful
international organizations, in other nations-particularly
those which have already experienced the bitter fruits of
such permissive legislation-there are growing signs of a
rethinking in this matter. In a case like the one just
mentioned, when it is not possible to overturn or completely
abrogate a pro-abortion law, an elected official, whose
absolute personal opposition to procured abortion was well
known, could licitly support proposals aimed at limiting the
harm done by such a law and at lessening its negative
consequences at the level of general opinion and public
morality. This does not in fact represent an illicit
cooperation with an unjust law, but rather a legitimate and
proper attempt to limit its evil aspects.”
That is from Evangelium Vitae found at
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae_en.html#$2Q
.
Ezekl, the above is for you. Look up Father Frank Pavone who is with Priests for Life. I am going to call it a night. “God bless us everyone!”
Is every vote for a Third Party is a loser vote?
yes.
Okay, okay, I jest. Somewhat. We are blessed to live in a country where anyone can run for public office. But with that blessing comes the responsibility of voting wisely.
We in the pro-life movement must not have pride. A vote for Mr. Keyes, or any third-party candidate in a race like this does not save babies. It makes a statement, yes. But it does not save babies. And if your vote swings the election to Obama, not only have you NOT saved babies, but you have brought greater harm to your country.
There is a time for words, and there is a time for action. When it’s clear that a candidate like Mr. Keyes will not win, we have a responsibility to be wise, and stand up for unborn children with our votes, and not just our words.
“Sending a message” is all well and good, but a vote that allows Sen. Obama to take the White House does nothing but send more babies to their death.
We in the pro-life movement must not have pride. A vote for Mr. McCain, does not save babies. It makes a statement, yes (that you’re willing to compromise on matters of life). But it does not save babies.
We in the pro-life movement must not have pride. A vote for Mr. Keyes, or any third-party candidate in a race like this does not save babies. It makes a statement, yes. But it does not save babies. And if your vote swings the election to Obama, not only have you NOT saved babies, but you have brought greater harm to your country.
There is a time for words, and there is a time for action. When it’s clear that a candidate like Mr. Keyes will not win, we have a responsibility to be wise, and stand up for unborn children with our votes, and not just our words.
“Sending a message” is all well and good, but a vote that allows Sen. Obama to take the White House does nothing but send more babies to their death.
Posted by: CHChick at September 5, 2008 8:38 PM
I agree CHChick. And this is exactly what happened in my electoral riding here in Canada. 517 people made a statement that they were prolife but in the end helped a proabort liberal win the riding and a seat in the House of Commons. They changed NOTHING. But they could have elected a prolife and profamily man.
CHChick: wasnt there a third party candidate that ran when Clinton was seeking election?
yes, Patricia– Ross Perot. It’s depressing to watch history repeat itself over and over, isn’t it?
Thank you for your support from Canada! It’s appreciated. Especially as everyone points to your healthcare system as the be all and end all.
Mary,
If you are still here, I need/want to apologize to you. A number of you came on all at once and the insults were flying so fast that I honestly lost track of who was saying what. You’ll notice that I didn’t even address my replies, because I was trying to talk about the tone and not specifics.
As I have said, I think your “team” does a lot of good. It’s not what you are doing, it’s the way you were expressing yourselves. And when I say you, I mean a collective you.
I realize that you were not insulting and attacking and I lumped you in there and I’m truly sorry.
My head was spinning and I was seeing red. It takes a lot, and I mean A LOT, (ask anyone here) to get me angry, but insinuating that we are not pro life or not Christian because we are Catholic or Atheist or because we attack the problem in a different way is a sure way to get me going…
Again, I remove your name from the list. Actually, as I reread everything Zeke is probably the only one that was truly throwing around insults.
I’m so sorry.
Please, have a chair. Can I get you something to drink? Forgive me?
MK: Absolutely forgiven, of course. Perfectly understandable and I was fairly sure this was what had happened in the first place.
That said, no unfortunately I think I’ll bow out. I looked here around a bit deeper and it’s clear there there’s a broad divide between my faith and the incrementalists that neither side is willing to cross. I’m certainly not.
Many thanks anyway and I’ll say it’s unfortunate that all involved, as passionate as we all are on this subject, cannot agree.
Perhaps I’ll return to later to argue the matter but that wasn’t my purpose in coming, so it’ll have to wait. ;)
Jill Said;
“NoMurderIsOk, 4:26p, wrote: “Lolita, Ezek 13:19, MaryContrary, Darrell B and Bob Kyffin have made some brilliant arguments here. I hope you will take some time to ponder the numerous and horrible effects of Christians who compromise on murder and publicly break their oaths to God based on fear not faith.”
Sorry, NMIO, this isn’t just theory to me. You likely know I’ve held an aborted baby. I’ll save every one I can when I can. That’s not compromise.”
Jill,
With all due respect, this is not theory to me either and I am all for saving every baby we can, when we can. That’s not the issue. Christians voting for and supporting someone who thinks it’s okay to kill some babies is the issue. (Actually, all of us who condemn “Oath to God” breakers getting rebuked by those who say we shouldn’t condemn or rebuke Christians is another main issue, but a separate discussion for now)
I don’t recall God making exceptions to “thou shall not murder” in the Bible, do you? And I think it is fabulous that you held and loved that little baby that someone tried to kill. I gave Gianna Jesson hug once and an abortionist tried to kill her. Does that mean you are more right because you hugged a gave comfort to a younger victim than I did? No, of course not, so again I plead with you to do what is right. Let’s get back to Christian’s actually saving kids by trying to STOP abortion instead of compromising on it. Sincerely, can you show me commandments or directives or examples in the Bible where God tells us to compromise with evil or to choose evil or even to choose the lesser of two evils?
Is it evil to advocate killing innocent children because they are the product of rape?
Then if I’m pro-choice and I vote for Keyes, then “I’ve voted for McCain. By this methodology, the value of one person’s vote is not in WHO they vote for, but who the voter is.
Is every vote for a Third Party is a loser vote? What does that say about someone running for President who isn’t a Democrat or a Republican?”
No, CC the third party vote only hurts the party it most closely alligns with. For example, the green party vote usually hurst the democrats, while the libertarian vote usually hurts republicans.
As for third party votes being a loser vote…sadly yes.
Now, don’t get me wrong, if a situation arises when we have two truly dispicable candidates in the two main parties, and enough people ralied to elect a 3rd part candidate, then the vote would be worthwile. Otherwise it just tips the critical 1 or 2 percentage points away from the main party candidate you most closely associate with.
oops, that was me at oliver 10:38
The issue here is a specific case of of the unqualified absolutism vs. graded absolutism debate. Personally, I don’t see the bible unequivocally teaching unqualified absolutism. I don’t see it teaching graded absolutism either. Truth be told, I actually lean more towards unqualified absolutism. But I would say that Christians can in good conscience hold either view since the bible is not clear on this point.
Murder is absolutely wrong.
-God
NoMurderIsOk,
What about gays? Can we kill them because they’re gay?
If ALL murder is absolutely wrong, then advocating killing gay people cause the Bible says so is wrong too. I’m not sure who you hang around with, but the people you seem to be in agreement with often feel killing gays is justified, so I’m just curious.
In any event, I’m still voting for McCain/Palin. I’ll continue to pray for all the aborted babies no matter who becomes President, as I’m sure babies will be aborted regardless of who becomes President.
I haven’t read all the way through, and I’m sure I’m missing some things I want to respond to. Maybe even stuff that’s directed toward me. But this is important, before I go to bed:
Many of you say not voting for McCain (i.e. voting 3rd Party) is a vote for Obama. Also that “no 3rd Party ever wins”.
Neither is true. Voting 3rd Party is voting for principle, and the major parties ALWAYS take note of whose votes they lose due to what factors. If Christians don’t vote GOP, the GOP will realize just how important we are as a voting bloc. If we always buckle under and let them have our vote anyway, they know they can take advantage of us and run moderates, and we’ll still vote for them. They’ve won! Not us.
In 1860, this country was rent by a moral evil — slavery — which was dividing the country because some people wanted slavery (pro-slavery), some people were willing to work within the system and “ameliorate” or “regulate” slavery (incrementalists) and other people said “No more!” and refused to compromise (true abolitionists).
This issue so greatly divided the country, and it also greatly divided the abolitionists, because the incrementalists were mad at the crazy absolutists who wanted to end slavery even if it caused the country to tear apart. Some of the most vicious infighting was between incrementalist abolitionists and absolutist abolitionists. Who was right? Hmm? Who held the moral ground? Those who wanted to carefully and slowly end slavery? Or those who wanted it ended outright as a moral evil, and wouldn’t stand for compromise or inaction?
The country was so divided over this moral evil that a 3rd Party DID win! It wasn’t supposed to be possible, but it happened. And the Republican Party came to be.
We need a NEW Republican Party — one willing to stand up for what’s right, not one who wants to preserve stability by compromising with evil.
The NEW Republican Party (i.e. a 3rd Party) will prevail and destroy the old establishment parties because people will have had enough of business as usual. People are dying in womens’ wombs! It is no time to accept the status quo!
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
A question for those who will vote for John McCain, the self professed child killer advocate; Do you also approve of those who practice them?
I wish I had time to read all….I got through one-fourth of the comments and looks like it got pretty heated.
All I want to say is think about this…. We need to examine our reasons for not voting for one of the two leading candidates. By throwing away a vote we are showing our lack of trust in God’s providence.
We need to pray for wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, fortitude, piety and fear of the Lord – the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
God doesn’t ask us to be perfect – he asks us to love him with all of our heart and mind and soul and love our neighbors as ourselves. How are we loving our neighbor if we don’t at least vote for the lesser of two evils in this Presidential election? We are not here to judge others,we are not here to protect our pride but to pray and trust God’s guidance. Are we trusting our own judgement more than we trust God’s? Do we not have faith that God will bless our country and our new President, and answer our prayers for them? Pray, pray, and pray some more and God will guide you on election day. God bless you all.
Hey Jill Stanek,
It was nice meeting you in Denver at DBC while you were in town (I was the 17-year-old you met). As one of the eight that were arrested at FOF yesterday, it might not come as a shock to you that I fully agree with the purpose and means of what we did.
“The compound this, Dr. Dobson said in February of 2008, this he could not and would not vote for James Dobson as a matter of conscience.”
Of course I meant Dobson said he wouldn’t vote for McCain.
Hey Guys (and you know who you are),
God says we must be IN the world, but not OF the world.
Does this mean you should stand by idly on the sidelines of this election while others mold your world for you?
“McCain could make abortion ILLEGAL across the nation and shut down all abortion clinics with one executive order if he wanted to, but he doesn’t want to because then he wouldn’t be able to continue to use the ongoing abortion holocaust as a political football to use in duping dumb Christians.”
While I agree that McCain will do nothing to save a single unborn baby’s life and I will not vote for him… no president has the power you describe. No private business needs to obey an executive order since they only apply to government entities.
But I do agree that If McCain had such power he would not use it.
Just two days ago, Cindy McCain said she is against overturning Roe vs Wade and so is her husband. Apparently she didn’t get the memo so the lies are hard to keep straight.
The whole premise that overturning Roe vs Wade would change much in America is flawed logic.
We haven’t single Supreme Court justice who will grant rights to the unborn. If Roe vs Wade was overturned tomorrow, every pro-abortion law, including the abortion regulations put in force by pro-lifers will still be firmly entrenched in our culture to assure that abortion continues.
We need to stop being the mistress to the Republican party who simply gets thrown aside after we vote for their fake pro-life candidate.
In the corrupt arena of partisan politics it is wrong to even assume things will be worst with Obama than with McCain.
Just looking at the history of the last 16 years, every time Bill Clinton wanted to do some liberal thing, the Republicans fought him hard, even being willing to shut down the government.
On the other hand, when George W. Bush wanted to to do some liberal thing, the Republicans just bowed down and let him have his way.
The Republicans often do the right thing for purely partisan reasons, but they rarely do the right thing because it is the right thing to do.
Obama would never get away the most liberal things he wants to do. McCain on the other hand will get away with liberal policies because he’s a Republican and other Republicans will hate to oppose him.
Still, God never asks us to calculate the outcome of the election, but we always must endorse.the person who does right.
If you vote for Obama or McCain, God will hold you accountable for their evil actions. Your vote is your personal endorsement for what they do.
Darrell,
Still, God never asks us to calculate the outcome of the election, but we always must endorse.the person who does right.
Why do you think God gave us brains if not to use them for good?
A vote for a person who is the lesser of two evils will not send you to hell. What kind of God would do that?
Yes… I’m back Jill… here to celebrate your foolishness.
Viel Spass!
Posted by: Cameron at September 5, 2008 12:44 PM
———————–
Jeremiah 8:20
“The harvest is past, the summer has ended, and we are not saved.”
Well, I guess SoMG, after being banned, went and layed hands on Cameron. Guess I do believe in miracles.
THANK YOU DARRELL B!!
You took the words out of my mouth. Both sides have been using each other as the boogeymen to keep the slaves on their respective plantations. Americans on both sides of the isle are starting to wake up to the game and want it to end. Pride has NOTHING to do with it. Everybody knows that the Emperor called the Two Party System is buck naked, and some have gone a step further to do something other than plug their noses and pull the lever for “The Lesser of Two Evils”.
Just for the record, I had NO plans whatsoever to vote for EITHER of the Knuckleheads running mainly due to their Immigration stance. The abortion issue was just iceing on the cake. My plan would be to vote for Ron Paul or Chuck Baldwin. Baldwin BTW, has promised to overturn Roe V Wade by Excutive Order.
“Voting 3rd Party is voting for principle, and the major parties ALWAYS take note of whose votes they lose due to what factors. If Christians don’t vote GOP, the GOP will realize just how important we are as a voting bloc. If we always buckle under and let them have our vote anyway, they know they can take advantage of us and run moderates, and we’ll still vote for them. They’ve won! Not us.”
This is putting theory ahead of practise. It might be nice to “send a message” but if, in doing so, we elect someone who will do everything in his power to destroy the pro-life cause, have we really won?
Intellectual Inconsistency
I was once charged with trespass for refusing to move from the doorway of a building where pre-natal humans were being killed. In the subsequent trial I was interviewing perspective jurors. They all answered questions under oath, understanding that lying would be perjury, a crime. I read the part of the 14th amenndment to the U.S. Constitution which states: ‘nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
I asked each perspective juror which of these three rights was pre-eminent, life, liberty, or property. Each one of them said liberty was the most important. I then asked them how you could possibly enjoy liberty if you had been denied life. They all said you could not. I then said, ‘If that is true, then you would have to say the right to life trumps all others, would you not?’ Each one of them, in turn, agreed. Life is numero uno/number one.
Now here is the interesting part. I could only interview one juror at a time. The remainder of the jury pool was present and heard me ask all the previous persons the same questions. But when it came their turn, each one of them answered the same way. Initially, liberty was the most important right, but when asked how you could enjoy liberty without life, logic dictated that the right to life is our most valuable right.
All the perspective jurors answered the questions honestly. But initially they were all honestly wrong. When required to exercise logic they had to acknowledge the truth: Without life every other right is meaningless.
What kind of embryo/fetus was in your mother’s uterus when she was pregnant with you?
Here are some clues: not bovine, not feline, not canine.
I know this is really difficult for some of you. You do not want jeopardize your bliss by giving up on your willful ignorance.
Are you smarter than a fifth grader?
And all the fifth graders said, “Human!”
What do you say?
ps:They convicted me of criminal trespass. I believe they would have voted to execute me if the penalty had been available. I know some of you would have.
Mary,
I assume you’ve left and won’t see this, but just in case. Thank you. I felt really bad about the whole thing.
You’re right tho, most of us are pretty cemented in our views about how to reach the goal. However, your input would still be invaluable if directed at the pro choicers on this board. And who knows, you might reach one or two of us too.
You’re always welcome. I’ll keep the kettle on.
yes, Patricia– Ross Perot. It’s depressing to watch history repeat itself over and over, isn’t it?
Thank you for your support from Canada! It’s appreciated. Especially as everyone points to your healthcare system as the be all and end all.
Posted by: CHChick at September 5, 2008 9:27 PM
Thanks. I’ll be praying for you guys down there but PLEASE pray for us up here in the Great White North. Apparently, Stephen Harper will be meeting with the GG tomorrow to dissolve Parliament and call and election. And I will working to get our prolife profamily Catholic Conservative elected in my riding!
MK: Zeke was the only one I saw being pretty darn nasty and most of it was directed at Lauren.
Mary Posted:I would suppose I’d feel the same as you would feel for those babies murdered under either McCain or Obama. Grieved. The only difference being that if McCain is elected, you’ll share in that guilt.
I’ve already explained how I “reconcile that aspect”. I refuse to be held responsible for murders I’m not responsible for. I’m certainly not about to let that false accusation lead to me actually supporting murder. That’d be crazy.
Patricia,
MK: Zeke was the only one I saw being pretty darn nasty and most of it was directed at Lauren.
Yeah, I realize that now. And the whole way this got out of control is exactly the point we are trying to make to Zeke. If you go around insulting people you’re just going to cause division.
People don’t respond to WHAT you say, but instead go on the defensive and don’t hear ANYTHING you say…
Earl Grey or Orange Pekoe? Sugar? Milk?
“Well, I guess SoMG, after being banned, went and layed hands on Cameron. Guess I do believe in miracles. ”
Haha! Brilliant!
Eileen,
You asked “what harm has Bush done”?
South Dakota was poised to declare abortion illegal in 2006 (I think). It was a no-exceptions ban on abortion.
In the end, it failed by only 6% of the vote. One of the major factors it failed is that President Bush declared himself against the ban, because it “did not contain exceptions for rape and incest.”
We don’t know if it would have passed without his interference. But what if it could have? What if — far better — Bush had actually come in and said he was FOR ending abortion?!
Bob Kyffin,
I agree that Bush could have been more effective in trying to end abortion. If Obama is elected it will only get worse.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
PiJ @ 2:28,
Have you ever compromised on anything?
Picture this: You’re on a desert island (picture “Survivor” if that helps). You have to scrounge for food – your choices are grubs or scorpions. You’re a vegetarian to boot. Do you pick one and deal with the unpleasant consequences or do you starve?
Simple, I know. But this election is a no-brainer to me. You state emphatically that pride has nothing to do with your unwillingness to compromise. Please think again. Your pride will contribute to the further demise of the morals of our country. As that point you’ll be able to say to God and the rest of us “You can’t blame me”. To me that’s a sign of cowardice, not courage.
I get the sense that pro-lifers don’t want to vote so much for McCain as they do for Palin. It’s just unfortunate for pro-lifers that McCain is attached to the ticket. What pro-lifers want is a Palin presidency and that won’t likely come until ’12 and only on the condition that she serves as VP first.
Posted by: Cranky Catholic at September 5, 2008 10:50 AM
That’s an excellent way to look at this conundrum. Look to the future if the present is not very bright.
MK,
I finally got to the part where you and Mary realized you shouldn’t be fighting each other, but that vigorous discussion between yourselves on valid moral points was okay — that’s great! And I agree.
I think that’s what most of us are trying to do, and yet it does get heated because (as you noted) it’s hard to keep track of who said what (conflating our opponents into the same voice), and that we do often take disagreement as attack. Frankly, when Jill posted “it’s like they can’t handle respect,” -I- took that as an attack, and I responded vigorously and vehemently.
Our disagreement is not meant as an attack. However, it’s meant to be vehement enough to attract the person’s attention, and as we see on this blog, it’s difficult to 1) get someone’s attention, AND 2) convince them we’re right. We can’t convince someone we’re right unless we HAVE their attention, so #1 is important. Dobson has rebuffed all approaches on these issues for 3 or 4 years now (and gentle, private conversation long preceded the Open Letter and protests). We had to do something to get his attention, and he’s proved a hard man to make notice. He’s stubborn, and he continues to prove that. That he HAS broken his oath is the easiest point to prove, if he would just listen and be open to correction, but he’s not. McCain WOULD kill at least one child (Darrell says Cindy said he opposes overturning Roe v. Wade, which McCain has said himself!), so Dobson is in violation. Should we CHEER him for that???
It was NOT an attack. It was an attempt to get his attention, so he will realize how far he’s embraced compromise.
When we “no compromise” folks gather here to debate, we mean honest debate. Yes, it’s hard not to lump us all together. I don’t necessarily agree with everything Ezek1319 says, but I agree with much of it. It’s Ezek’s approach that differs, and I’m sometimes put off by how he phrases things. I don’t believe someone is going to hell for voting for McCain or for supporting incrementalism. What I DO believe is that someone who does these things, which I strongly believe are against God’s Will and Law, will be judged once they get to Heaven. “Why did you do this, My Sister? I asked you not to! Why didn’t you stand for what was right, rather than what was expedient? Why did you choose the lesser of two evils, instead of choosing to stand for righteousness instead?”
MK, most of us who’ve been posting in disagreement with you have not attacked you. In fact, we’ve been attempting an honest, serious dialogue with you.
It is important to us to change your mind, and the minds of others here, pro-life incrementalists and pro-choice people alike. But we can’t change your mind without stating things that are pretty stark to us — do not compromise, do not choose the lesser of two evils, don’t do evil that good may come of it, stand up for righteousness instead.
If you’re unwilling to examine yourself and your ideas to ensure you’re not doing what we suggest, then you’ll remain firm. We’re just trying to get you to evaluate whether what you’re doing is having an unintended negative consequence.
This “can’t we all get along” phrase only helps if we’re being led in the right direction. If we’re being driven toward a cliff, then it’s RIGHT for us to be shouting and pushing people to get them to wake up and turn the car around!
Please take a moment to consider whether a “parental consent” law that may save some babies does other babies irreparable harm by endorsing abortion through “…and then you can kill the baby” language. These “pro-life” laws actually entrench abortion in law as a RIGHT! Saving some babies, but killing others for perpetuity! PLEASE stop and consider the possibility that we’re right.
I’d also like to say I don’t think it’s productive to constantly compare Catholics vs. Protestants on what we’ve each done. I respect and admire Catholics for their constant stand for life, even when Protestants (many of them, not all) were compromising. But you should be glad we’re back on your side. And now that Protestants have joined forces with Catholics for Personhood (this is OUR united movement, which you’re arguing against — ALL’s Judie Brown and Bob Enyart joined forces in the first Open Letter to Dobson, which DID express our love and admiration for him, but which went on to rebuke him for calling good evil and evil good) do you mean to sit back and shake your head at us as we lead toward victory against ALL abortion, or will you join with us and celebrate that, even though incremental laws only incrementally got us to our goal, demanding justice for the unborn NOW will overthrow the oppressive regime?
The Catholic Conference of Bishops, here in Colorado has taken a stand against the Personhood initiative, and yet Catholics still make up probably 40-60% of the base of support for the amendment. That’s tremendous!!! But MK you should be glad that 40-60% of the 100% anti-abortion crowd who are backing Personhood in law ARE Protestant! Why denigrate our commitment? It wasn’t today’s Protestants who compromised (not most of us anyway) — today’s Protestant pro-life movement is made up of young people who weren’t even born when Protestant churches accepted Roe v. Wade, and who are now convinced they were wrong.
MK, please join with our NEW movement of both Protestants and Catholics, arm in arm. Dare to hope that something can change, and that we can END abortion with God’s help if we only stand up and proclaim His law!
And to whoever (I forget) said “we” (the ARTL people) should stop “attacking” good people and stand out in the cold for life… What do you think we’re doing? Colorado Right to Life has had a presence outside the local abortion clinic EVERY DAY (freezing cold or not!) to protest what they’re doing. Do you think we sit back and don’t do those things, and just point fingers? We do both, and we only point fingers because some people in the pro-life movement seem to be leading toward compromise where there should be none!
Bob Kyffin
Janet,
There’s disagreement as to whether voting for a 3rd party candidate or voting for the lesser of two evils best represents “throwing your vote away”.
I think voting for the lesser of two evils is throwing my vote away, because I know if I cast that vote I’m robbing myself of my political clout.
This is a political reality: If the GOP thinks (knows) they will have Christians voting for their candidates, no matter whether they’re pro-life or not, they have NO INCENTIVE to ever put pro-life candidates up for office! They will consistently give us unacceptable candidates, and they will know that we’ll still vote for them.
We HAVE to stand up for ourselves and our ideals! If not, we’ve lost any power we had.
I’ll vote for Keyes, as a principled candidate. Republicans will look at EVERY VOTE for Keyes as a vote they could have had if they’d just been pro-life. They’ll understand what they’ve given up, especially if they lose by that amount or less.
And Obama doesn’t have the power to destroy this country in 4 years. We’re trusting in God’s providence that he’ll give us McCain and we’ll be okay? What about God’s providence when we have Obama? I think God is more likely to forsake us if every Christian votes for a pro-abortion candidate like McCain than he is if Christians stand up against the pro-abortion candidates and support a principled one!
Obama could be our Jimmy Carter, whose policies and leadership are SO BAD conservatives and moderates alike unite against him in 2012 and the next Republican (who’s a conservative!) wins in a landslide, and overthrows the regime of abortion in 2013! Obama could energize the righteous, just like Carter and Clinton did. Consider that possibility!
Bob Kyffin,
Was it you that I talked to about this maybe a few months ago here on Jill’s blog? I asked you if you could further explain why you are against incramentalism? It was a short convo. I don’t know if you remember or not, but you made a lot of really good points. Was this you? Do you remember this at all? Thanks, God love you.
Bobby,
Yes, that was me. You asked me to explain why incrementalism was counterproductive, and you said you thought I’d made alot of good points and you’d consider it.
If you’d like to discuss this more, I’d be more than happy to! My email is robertkyffin@yahoo.com . That goes for anyone else who’s openminded as well.
Sometimes I think it’s useless to say anything here, because it seems everyone is so convinced they’re right. I’ve considered carefully whether I’m taking the right approach, even in the face of criticism, but I’ve evaluated the criticism and feel I can justify even in the face of that. If any of you sincere incrementalists are willing to consider the possibility that you’re causing unintended consequences, I’d love to be able to discuss that with you!
Thanks, Bobby!
In Christ,
Bob
BoB K,
This was my response,
I got news for you…protestants sold out to abortion a long time ago and are only now joining the good fight. You embraced birth control, divorce, dissent from the Mother Church and abortion…
*
If any one has the right to say they own the pro life movement it’s the Catholic Church…but of course, She never would. Because it’s not about who’s right…it’s about what’s right.
to this:
With 99% of the pro-life movement being made up of CHRISTIANS who trust Jesus Christ for salvation I can say without any fear of contradiction that WE DO INDEED OWN THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT.
Posted by: Ezek13:19 at September 5, 2008 1:57 PM
I also made note, many times, that I value the work you guys to and was not taking exception to that, only to Zeke putting down other Christians, and other pro lifers.
I appreciate the view you take. I really do. I simply take another view. Many times there is a right and a wrong, and you cannot say that both have equal merit (ie: all religions are the same) but this, to me, is not that case.
I believe that it would be WONDERFUL if we could get a human life amendment. I said as much to Anne Scheidler months ago, before I’d even heard of you guys. I too wanted to know why we keep goin’ in through the back door. So I know where you’re coming from.
HOWEVER, I also know that the endless work done by prolifers everywhere is not without merit simply because it is different from yours.
I do not believe we are going over a cliff. I believe we are doing what we can while we can…
To everything there is a season.
I have absolutely nothing against protestants and only said what I said to illustrate that if you were going to play the game of “we’re better than you”, that you’d lose, because the Catholics have NEVER wavered on this issue. This is a STUPID game to play. I wouldn’t ever really play it. I was simply pointing out to Zeke how very ludicrous it was.
No one, NOT the Catholic Church, NOT the Christians, NOT the atheists…NO ONE has the pro life movement in their pocket. It is NOT owned by anyone. And it was the most noxious insult I have heard in a loooong time, which is saying much as I blog HERE everyday.
Zeke is a detriment to your cause. You need to reign him in or distance yourself from him. He is working from pride, not truth.
I DO NOT think your movement is working from pride. I think ZEKE is working from pride.
I just confused the two as he was the loudest gong.
You say you want us to join your side, and we are saying, “No Thank You, but by all means carry on…you are doing great work”…
And finally, Catholics DO NOT believe it okay to choose the lesser of two evils. We choose the thing that will bring the most GOOD. If both choices are bad, then we choose the one that will bring about the MOST good. We are choosing the good, not the bad.
WHen a woman is told that she will die from an ectopic pregnancy, and we remove the baby from her fallopian tube we are NOT intentionally killing the baby. That end was set by GOD. We are saving the womans life. If the baby HAS to die to that it is a consequence, but NEVER the INTENTION. We have two bad choices. One will produce some good. One will produce NO good, so we choose the one that will produce the MOST good. Perfect? No. But neither is life.
I really wish Zeke and you would stop trying to say the we EVER choose evil.
Peace,
I apologize to you as well and anyone else that got caught in the crossfire.
Cool, thanks Bob.
“Sometimes I think it’s useless to say anything here, because it seems everyone is so convinced they’re right.”
No, I don’t think it is. As you voiced your concern in a loving, Christ-like way, it’s never useless to try and discern Truth. Lots to pray about still, lots of good points. God love you.
BoB,
“Sometimes I think it’s useless to say anything here, because it seems everyone is so convinced they’re right.”
But you see, you are the one that believes you are right and won’t listen.
It’s NOT that we don’t think you are right. We do. We think we are right also. You think we are wrong.
See the difference.
When we say we are right, we do not mean that therefore you are wrong.
But when you say you are right you DO mean that we are wrong.
I just don’t see this as an either/or situation. That is my only disagreement with you.
If you are able to get a human life amendment, I will be the first and loudest to congratulate you. I will be thrilled. I will shake your hand and buy you a bottle of the finest champagne.
I will celebrate your win because I do not see this as my loss. This isn’t a contest to see who get win the prolife fight. It’s an effort to do anything and everything that we possibly can.
You cover the direct assault to the castle, and I’ll cover the back door and the woods…
Bob Kyffin,
Thank you for your response. I admire your noble intentions. You certainly have grabbed the attention of pro-lifers. You may be right about about Obama energizing the righteous, but I have a very hard time seeing how making things horrible for eight years is going to be worthwhile. Being able to tell the Republicans “I told you so” when they lose in 2008 seems to be your main objective right now. How is that NOT prideful?
I think you see the glass as half-empty and I see it as half-full. As one who remembers 1973 when the unthinkable became legal, I think our country has come a long way in just the last few years towards mobilizing for Life. Every time Planned Parenthood opens a new facility in a large city,the pro-lifers come out in full force to fight against abortion. It could be called a blessing in disguise! I see your point that Obama could be the force that mobilizes the pro-life groups, but I think his influence in other areas is too dangerous to ignore for the sake of the Pro-life movement.
As a devout Catholic, I am dedicated to reducing abortion. It would be advantagious for all of us to work together. I pray that you will re-consider your 3rd party vote in the election. I will certainly not be throwing away my vote to teach the Republicans something they already know – that Americans want a pro-life leader.
MK,
I’ve explained this before, and this is why I don’t think you’re listening.
It’s not that I think you’re taking a different path to the same goal, and if you were I’d be happy with that, and I would applaud your efforts.
But from where I see it, you guys are actually heading out into the hills. You may THINK you’re on a path to the same goal, but you’re really deceived and you’re heading in a direction that is really counterproductive.
You are frustrated that we won’t applaud your efforts. We applaud your INTENTIONS, but not your efforts, because what you’re doing actually HURTS our Personhood cause.
Every time you sign legislation into law that acknowledges a fictional “right” to an abortion, no matter whether you save 10% or 20% of babies in the process, you’re further establishing the concept in law that abortion is a “right”, which it’s not. What’s more, our enemies can say, “Not just NARAL believes a woman should have a right to choose abortion, but these pro-lifers acknowledged that right by writing into their law that after seeing the ultrasound the woman still retains her right to choose freely to have an abortion.”
So while we in Colorado are busy proclaiming Personhood, other pro-lifers are passing laws which acknowledge a right to abortion, which contradicts the Right to Life. It’s VERY frustrating, which is why we’re so vehement, and so pointed in our entreaties to you, Dobson and National Right to Life to CHANGE strategies to something that is 100% supportive of Personhood.
MK, I applaud your intentions. I just believe you’ve been misled into thinking that compromise is the way to get ahead. Principle is the only thing that preserves the principle. Compromise NEVER supports ANY principle. Compromise undermines principle.
And Janet, why should anyone in the GOP care whether America wants a pro-life president, when they know for 100% sure that just as many people will show up and vote for a Republican pro-abort? They know that even if their guy endorses 90% of all abortions, Christians will still vote for him because he doesn’t support 100% like the other guy. We’re just ASKING for the GOP to choose 90% pro-abortion candidates, because there isnt’ any consequence when they do. We’re digging our own grave, and the graves of millions of children by not demanding our leaders stand up for what’s right.
Well, Bob, I think you’ve been mislead into believing this “my way or the highway” attitude will help save babies lives. But carry on..we’ll keep on doing what we do, and you keep doing what you do. THAT’S the actual difference between us, you think your way is the ONLY way that’s right, and we see there are more ways to do the right thing and choose to do those as well. I personally think our way changes more minds and hearts about abortion, and that is my personal opinion, and you don’t have to agree.
Elizabeth,
You didn’t do anything to convince me your way has any merit. All you said is I’m not listening, and your way is right (you’re absolutely sure of it!) and so you’re going to keep doing it.
If you really believe in your way, why don’t you try to defend it using logic? Better yet, why don’t you try using the Bible to defend compromise with evil?
I do believe only our way is right, because only our way supports the principle of Personhood, and I make no apologies for that. Jesus had a “my way or the highway” attitude, and many condemned Him for it. Were they right? Or was He?
Here’s the bottom line: If the government has ANY say in determining when to take the life of an innocent person, then that person does NOT have a Right to Life. So your laws which allow the government to determine at what point, or under what conditions, the government may allow the taking of an innocent human life is not supportive of the Right to Life.
Don’t just tell me I’m wrong — that’s what you accuse us of. Tell us WHY we’re wrong.
Bob Kyffin: tell me HOW voting for Alan Keyes will help unborn babies IMMEDIATELY? Especially if you siphon off enough votes for Obama to win.
How will YOU justify this with your conscience?
Bob @ 4:51,
With all due respect, I still don’t agree. I’ll try to address each point. Forgive me for the length of this post.
And Janet, why should anyone in the GOP care whether America wants a pro-life president, when they know for 100% sure that just as many people will show up and vote for a Republican pro-abort?
Um, because the GOP consists of real people who have to go home to their neighbors at night and justify their positions?
They know that even if their guy endorses 90% of all abortions, Christians will still vote for him because he doesn’t support 100% like the other guy.
See answer above. Also, we have never had such a far-left leaning candidate as Obamalama that I can remember. This is an extreme case. The lesser of two evils at this point really counts for something.
We’re just ASKING for the GOP to choose 90% pro-abortion candidates, because there isnt’ any consequence when they do.
You know that’s not true. Look at Palin. Have you forgotten so soon? I think you underestimate the moral leanings of McCain/Palin supporters, and overestimate your group’s power over the GOP. How many people are in your group? Do you really think they are going to look at their loss in the election and say, WOW, that group really blew us out of the water. What in the world can they do differently right now, not ten years from now, to convince you to vote for them?
I know you are not Catholic, but I wonder if you would be willing to at least read this linked article from EWTN.com. It may give you a new perspective. I think we can agree on this:
Moral Duties Concerning Voting
“We encourage all citizens, particularly Catholics, to embrace their citizenship not merely as a duty and privilege, but as an opportunity meaningfully to participate in building the culture of life. Every voice matters in the public forum. Every vote counts. Every act of responsible citizenship is an exercise of significant individual power. We must exercise that power in ways that defend human life, especially those of God’s children who are unborn, disabled or otherwise vulnerable. We get the public officials we deserve. Their virtue
Janet: there are many Christians who consider the Catholic Church and its followers to be satanic.
Bob,
I did not post the complete article above, my wording may have not been clear. The complete article can be found at:
http://www.ewtn.com/vote/voting_faq.htm
Janet: there are many Christians who consider the Catholic Church and its followers to be satanic.
Posted by: Patricia at September 6, 2008 6:01 PM
Well, I hope Bob isn’t one of them. If so, others may benefit from my post. As I said earlier, I didn’t read the mid-section of this thread.
I don’t know about Bob but I know many evangelical Christians have this opinion of Catholics. My friends and I have encountered it in the local homeschooling group and I believe it was one of the reasons the Catholic prolife candidate in my riding did NOT get their votes. I have had serious discussions that have really gone bad with some of these people. It borders on complete hate – I was very shocked.
AS for the personhood amendments I just don’t think they will work. Abortion is part of a lifestyle choice and that choice involves contraception. As soon as contraception was widely and cheaply available in the form of the BC pill, it was only a matter of a decade before legalization of abortion was brought about. People don’t care whether an unborn baby is a person or not. They don’t want a baby to be the result of their sexual (promiscuity) behaviour and will do just about anything to avoid this consequence. It isn’t the baby that’s the problem – it’s the sex (and NO AMANDA, I’m not against sex!). The root of abortion is contraception not the lack of personhood of the child. People KNOW the unborn baby is a human person.
BTW, I just learned that Palin was baptized a Catholic when she was a baby! Let’s pray she returns to the Church some day!
Bob,
And Janet, why should anyone in the GOP care whether America wants a pro-life president, when they know for 100% sure that just as many people will show up and vote for a Republican pro-abort?
I do not think, not even for a minute, that if even EVERY pro lifer in the country voted for Alan Keyes that it would make one iota of difference to the GOP. There just aren’t enough of us…yet.
There certainly aren’t enough that would go to this extreme. We just aren’t there yet. Maybe one day.
We can barely get a 40 days vigil together. There’s only 8 people on our ProLife Committe. There are hundreds more ProLifers in our Parish, but they just aren’t revved up enough to DO anything.
So until you can rally ALL prolifers in the ENTIRE country (and even then, there aren’t enough) you’ll never get the GOP’s attention. The numbers juut aren’t there. The enthusiasm just isn’t there. No one in Washington is even going to notice, let alone care that you guys aren’t voting for them.
For us, and for us, ONLY, this issue is everything. For most people, sadly, it’s just another thing.
What our side is doing is trying to rouse Americans, wake them up and GET them enthused. It’s a slow process. We’re trying to move and ENORMOUS wheel. It doesn’t happen overnight and it won’t happen just because you want it to.
I respect how you feel, and I understand that you think we are wrong. But I’m just not with you on this one.
Yet.
MK,
I might suggest that your pro-life group would grow and become energized if you could offer them something substantial, like a Personhood initiative, to get behind!
People are never energized about regulating abortion, because people realize it’s a half-measure. They get confused about what the real goal is, and they start thinking “well, if we’re drawing lines, where should the line be drawn?” The voters end up thinking the same way, and it just gets muddled and confused.
Here in Colorado, we engaged 1,000 volunteer circulators to gather 131,000 signatures! I honestly have not seen this degree of activism and excitement for ANY ballot measure thus far in 20 years in politics. And that includes pro-life ballot initiatives that have been tried in the past — this “extreme” pro-life measure has MORE support than those others did. It seems counterintuitive, but it’s because of the principle.
People are motivated by principle, not by half-measures.
you don’t want to answer questions Bob – you just want to pontificate on your point of view
Unfortunately there are alot of prolifers not with you on this one.
Patricia,
I don’t know all that much about the Personhood Amendment except there are strong proponents and opponents.
What if a personhood amendment is passed and the pro-aborts just change their tune. They may say, “If women are forced to grow their pregnancies by law, then the government should pay for all hospital and child-raising costs.” The mortality/murder rates of infants and toddlers may increase.
Would a personhood amendment be the necessary action to repeal Roe v. Wade?
Yes, I did make a political compromise a few years ago. Not wanting Mister BoostMyTaxes, I held my nose and voted for the “Lesser of all of the Evils” As a result, The Arnold has folded like a house of cards and we are in even worse shape now than we were under Gov LowBeam.
Sorry, I diagree about the pride issue. My displeasure is more about no longer wanting to do the same thing repeatedly and hoping for a different outcome. I believe someone called that the definition of Insanity.
This discontent goes beyond the abortion issue. Expansion of Government, uncontrolled deficit spending and ILLEGAL immigration also comes to mind.
Mind you, it’s not just the Repugnatcants are not the only ones guily of this. For years, I toed the Dumboldcrap party line. Back in the mid 1990’s, I woke up, took a look at the other side and saw a Bizarro World version of what I just left. JMHO, saying one side is worse than the other is like comparing Jeff Dahmer to Ted Bundy.
Janet to my mind, the personhood course of action simply does not address the root cause of abortion, which is contraception. Until this is addressed, there will be very little likelihood of even reducing the abortion rate, never mind eliminating abortion.
The fact that sex is separated from it’s procreative facility makes a world of difference. Until Christian prolifers, in particular, realize this they will pursue these ultimately useless paths.
When couples use contraception, they do not have the mindset of the possibility of creating a new life. Prior to widespread contraception, there was at least some expectation that sex would eventually lead to a baby and therefore some acceptance of this fact. With the fully contraceptive mentality that 90% of couples function with today, that expectation is simply not there. So when a baby is conceived, a way must be available to remove this “consequence”. I don’t have the answer as to how to change this mentality. It requires a conversion of heart – something Western society is simply not ready for at this time.
Women and men too, have always known that a baby is a person – a human being that has the right not to be killed. It is only recently (~the last 30 years or so) that this view has changed, due to expediency.
My guess is that if personhood laws changed the face of abortion and made it somehow more difficult to obtain an abortion, in the US at least, it would be analagous to the slavery situation. Some states would have abortion, others would not. Another civil war? Who knows?
Patricia,
I’m glad to answer questions, but it sometimes takes time. What do you most want an answer to?
Would it cheer you to know that some (many) forms of contraception would be banned by the Personhood amendment?
Bob,
You somehow missed my logic in there? You say WE’RE the ones who aren’t saving babies, well, your method isn’t saving any babies either. So in the midst of all this, WHO’S SAVING THE BABIES?! If that’s REALLY what this whole thing is about…
And P.S. I don’t really try to use the Bible to justify any of my feelings on abortion to other people, as I am aware that there are many non-Christians out there, and I try to appeal to everybody when it comes to seeing that abortion is wrong. While many of my feelings on abortion do come from my faith and the way I was raised, I don’t feel forcing my faith on other people changes how they feel about abortion.
I’m not Catholic, but this:
“The moral distinction between formal and material cooperation allows Catholics to choose imperfect candidates as the means of limiting evil or preventing the election of a worse candidate. The justification of doing that is described above. Formal cooperation is that degree of cooperation in which my will embraces the evil object of another ‘s will. Thus, to vote for a candidate because he favors abortion is formal cooperation in his evil political acts. However, to vote for someone in order to limit a greater evil, that is, to restrict in so far as possible the evil that another candidate might do if elected, is to have a good purpose in voting. The voter’s will has as its object this limitation of evil and not the evil which the imperfect politician might do in his less than perfect adherence to Catholic moral principles. Such cooperation is called material, and is permitted for a serious reason, such as preventing the election of a worse candidate.” [cf. Gospel of Life 74]”
posted by Janet, was FABULOUS! Thank you for posting it. :)
However, I was a bit perplexed by this statement:
“BTW, I just learned that Palin was baptized a Catholic when she was a baby! Let’s pray she returns to the Church some day!
Posted by: Patricia at September 6, 2008 6:41 PM”
I don’t mean this to sound rude, but…why?? Isn’t Palin a Christian, or have I been misled? I thought I read an article that said she was heavily involved in her Christian church and was a strong believer.
You have just said that you’ve known people who had a hatred for Catholics, which I think is awful, but then to say something like you said implies that somehow being a strong Christian, while not Catholic, is less than desirable. (?) Unless I’m misreading you. Forgive me if I am, Patricia.
It just struck me as odd…so, if this sort of thing was implied in any of your conversations with that group of non-Catholic Christian homeschoolers, then I have to be honest and say that I’d expect their reaction to be less than favorable.
Bob,
You’re wrong about Jesus because you confuse the message with the method. He actaully told the disciples that is was OK that others were preaching the Kingdom….in a different way.
God is concerned that the message is preached, not how it’s done for the message is sacred not the method.
The message is that abortion is murder and must be stopped. The method of doing that takes many forms.
Remember this too. Jesus said that a house divided against itself cannot stand. Which house do you live in? I think it’s the house built on sand of legalism not on the solid Rock of Christ’s truth.
Beside, God strongly condemsn a factious man in the body.
Spirit my friend, not letter. The letter kills but, the Spirit gives life. You seem pretty dead to me drowned in a sea of legalism when you attack one of our own warriors. It’s pretty close to treason.
And let’s stop the Catholic/Protestant division. Jesus said that anyone that believed in Him was his follower and that the anti-Christ was someone who said that Jesus did not come in the flesh. Let’s stop throwng stones at each other. It is so, so stupid. Jesus loves anyone that beleive in Him, period.
“you seem pretty dead to me” “it’s pretty close to treason” AND THEN “let’s stop throwing stones at each other” Hmmm
“you seem pretty dead to me” “it’s pretty close to treason” AND THEN “let’s stop throwing stones at each other” Hmmm
Kel,
I know it sounds like we think the Catholic Church is “better” when we say things like we hope she returns to the Church one day…but let me explain.
First “The Church” is what we call the Catholic Church. We think of her as a living, breathing entity. We also refer to to the Church as she.
So by saying “The Church”, Patricia meant returning to the Catholic Church, not the Christian Church…
Second, while we don’t think we are “better”, we do think that the Cathlolic Church and her teachings are the original church instituted by Christ…and hope that one day ALL Christians will return to her, the Mother Church.
Yes, Sarah is a Christian. Yes, she has every chance of going to heaven, yes she is saved.
But we believe the Catholic Church is the “Full” Christian expression. Whenever one of our own leaves, we are saddened.
The reasons we believe this are too numerous to get into, and led to a 5,000 comment thread once, so we tend to stay away from it.
Just know that it isn’t a putdown to Sarah or any protestants. We believe that you follow Jesus Christ, that you love Him and that one day we will all be in heaven together.
You are misreading me Kel. I was just surprised to learn that Palin was baptized a Catholic. There was nothing more to the statement. According to what I read, I guess her family started attending various churches when she was growing up. I’m not surprised considering that the state of the CC during the last couple of decades. (ps I’m Catholic so I’m not trying to insult other Catholics here)
I am hopeful that Palin will some day return to practicing her Catholic faith. I think mk expressed my feelings very well (thank-you mk!) in this regard. I believe our separated Christian brothers and sisters have much to offer us Catholics.
mk and Patricia, thank you for clarifying your view for me. I appreciate it. :)
If you vote for McCain have done something evil?
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1842015&postcount=3
I guess Cindy McCain didn’t get the “Here’s how you fool the gullible Christians to get their vote” memo;
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/09/04/cindy-roe-wade-overturned/
Couric: Where do you stand on abortion?
McCain: I’m pro-life. I’m on the record as being pro-life, like my husband.
Couric: So do you oppose it even in cases of rape and incest?
McCain: No.
Couric: So that’s where you two differ in terms of your position on that.
McCain: Uh-huh
Couric: And do you believe Roe V. Wade should be overturned?
McCain: No. no.
Couric: No. Why not? Your husband does.
McCain: No. I don’t think he does.
Couric: He believes it should be overturned. That’s what he told me, and that it should go to the states.
McCain: Well, in that respect. Yes, yeah, I do. I understand what you’re saying now. It’s a states issue.
Couric: So, you believe it should be overturned or shouldn’t be overturned.
McCain: I believe it’s a states issue. That I do believe.
My biggest concern with personhood amendments is the fact that they’re unconstitutional.
Let me explain.
I do not believe that there is a right to abortion in the Constitution.
However, in 1973, the Supreme Court, the body that is supposed to interpret the Constitution, said otherwise. Despite their obviously flawed logic, abortion is now legal. Pro-life laws do not cement abortion as being the law of the land.. abortion already IS the law of the land. Whether or not it should be( and it shouldn’t!!!) abortion IS completely legal. Our standing up and saying “abortion is wrong” doesn’t change the fact that it is LEGAL. Our two choices are 1) overturn Roe and send it all back to states(at which point the pro-life legislation in place will help to limit the number of abortions while we work to abolish it completely) or 2) get an amendment to the Constitution which would require 2/3 of the house, 2/3 of the senate, and 3/4 of the states to agree to. ANYONE think that we’re anywhere near that right now???
These personhood laws are a direct challenge to the current law of the land. ARTLers say that pro-life laws are doing nothing but legitimizing abortion as law(which is false), but I’m curious how they justify attempting to pass a law that will go to the Supreme Court again and, without another vote on the court, will be shot down and further cement Roe.
In the meantime, the pro-life laws that chip away at Roe provide the opportunity to educate people who THINK that they support Roe, but are quickly in favor of overturning it when they learn that Roe is so extreme that even well-meaning pro-choicers can’t stomach it.
My biggest concern with personhood amendments is the fact that they’re unconstitutional.
Let me explain.
I do not believe that there is a right to abortion in the Constitution.
However, in 1973, the Supreme Court, the body that is supposed to interpret the Constitution, said otherwise. Despite their obviously flawed logic, abortion is now legal. Pro-life laws do not cement abortion as being the law of the land.. abortion already IS the law of the land. Whether or not it should be( and it shouldn’t!!!) abortion IS completely legal. Our standing up and saying “abortion is wrong” doesn’t change the fact that it is LEGAL. Our two choices are 1) overturn Roe and send it all back to states(at which point the pro-life legislation in place will help to limit the number of abortions while we work to abolish it completely) or 2) get an amendment to the Constitution which would require 2/3 of the house, 2/3 of the senate, and 3/4 of the states to agree to. ANYONE think that we’re anywhere near that right now???
These personhood laws are a direct challenge to the current law of the land. ARTLers say that pro-life laws are doing nothing but legitimizing abortion as law(which is false), but I’m curious how they justify attempting to pass a law that will go to the Supreme Court again and, without another vote on the court, will be shot down and further cement Roe.
In the meantime, the pro-life laws that chip away at Roe provide the opportunity to educate people who THINK that they support Roe, but are quickly in favor of overturning it when they learn that Roe is so extreme that even well-meaning pro-choicers can’t stomach it.
I apologize for the double post– that was not intended.
Chick, you totally miss the point of the statement that regulating abortions cement abortion as a right in America.
You should seek the opinion of a legal expert such as Dr. Charles Rice, Notre Dame Law School, professor emeritus.
Dr. Rice makes a strong case that if and when Roe vs Wade is ever overturned, most states will have child killing regulation laws on the books which will help keep abortion legal.
Those regulations are 100% the doing of unwitting pro-lifers.
Pro-lifers have supported many laws that in effect say, do this… then you can kill the baby.
If you get your parent’s consent, then you can kill the baby.
If you are informed, then you can kill the baby.
If you wait 48 hours, then you can kill the baby.
If you give the baby pain medicine, then you can kill the baby.
If you show the mother an ultrasound, then you can kill the baby.
All of these laws ultimately give permission to kill the baby.
These laws will all be on the books after Roe Vs Wade. Pro-lifers have convinced much of the population that these are reasonable laws.
After Roe vs Wade, pro-lifers will have to try to fight the very same laws they supported.
By the way… this week Cindy McCain said both she and her husband were against overturning Roe vs Wade. She apparently didn’t get the memo about which lie she was supposed tell this week.
John McCain is a pro-abort… always has been!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE69ajamamo
This whole debate is just ridiculous. Trying to stop the killing of unborn children through referenda (as in Colorado) does not work as we almost always lose such efforts. Voting for Alan Keyes also will not work to save any lives since he cannot win. Calling John McCain a pro-abort is unfair since he is on record as favoring stopping 99% of the killing of unborn children (except rape and incest). It is unfortunate that many people in our society favor these exceptions but it is a reality of life.
The way to stop abortion crime is to elect a pro-life (as pro-life as can be) Republican Congress and President and then to pass a federal statute to prohibit the killing of unborn children. If we can pronibit it 100% fine; if we can only protect 99% of children (rape and incest exceptions) we should do that immediately and work on protecting the other 1% as soon as possible. To oppose legislation that protects 99% because it doesn’t protect 100% is to condemn that 99% to death when they could be saved. To do this is to do evil so that someday maybe some good will result.
Just as we would not preposterously refuse to protect unborn children in Colorado because it wouldn’t protect kids in Nebraska or Wyoming or New Mexico or refuse to pass legislation outlawing abortion in America because unborn children in Canada and Europe would remain unprotected, so we should not refuse to protect the 99 unborn children whom we can save because the 1 rape or incest baby remained at risk. To be able to achieve at one blow 99% of your objective is damn good and is not properly referred to as “incremental”.
Having elected McCain and a Republican Congress we should then get the whole movement together to go to the new President and Congressional leaders and tell them in no uncertain terms what we need from them in terms of legislation and Supreme Court appointments. If we cannot get what we need we should let them know that we will withdraw our support and they will be defeated in Republican primaries in 2010 and 2012. This is the only way I can see that we have any reaslistic hope of stopping abortion crime in 2009.
Joe, great post. Thank you.
this week Cindy McCain said both she and her husband were against overturning Roe vs Wade.
Well good – they don’t have any real need to force pregnant women to go against their will.
Wasn’t McCain asked one time, either about his daughter or hypothetically if he had a daughter, if she was pregnant and wanted an abortion, what would he say? I think he said it would be up to the daughter.
I disagree with CHchick abortion will never be legal. The sad law they passed that makes Roe V Wade look legal is unconstitutional. Abortion will never be legal, not by the Constitution and not by the Bible. We have a National Petition for the Right to Life. It keeps in with the “Abortion is not legal” We will present it to the Supreme Court next year. http://savethesouls.org
I don’t disagree, Tracy, that a so-called “right” to abortion is unconstitutional. However, the Supreme Court disagrees. Those are the confines we have to work within. Standing up and saying that abortion isn’t constitutional doesn’t change anything.
Unfortunately, according to the Supreme Court, abortion *IS* legal. It shouldn’t be. But it is. That’s just a fact.