Trig
I’ve been meaning to post this for a few days, very touching. By Rich Lowry of National Review Online, August 31:
I found the Palin event Friday incredibly moving. Partly because of Trig.
The sentimentalist in me would be willing to see anyone who is loving and unselfish enough to welcome a Down kid into their family elevated to high office.
When I was thinking of Trig, I was reminded of an encounter I had a couple of weeks ago on the Delta Shuttle from Washington to New York. It was a mostly empty plane, but I went all the back to the very emptiest part of the plane to spread out and enjoy the quiet. And there was a man sitting in the very back row who immediately piped up, “Hi. I’m Ian. Would you like to sit next to me?”
He was a guy with Down Syndrome, maybe in his twenties. I declined the offer, but we struck up a conversation. He was going to New York for a family celebration, including for his birthday. I told him I had a birthday coming up too and he lit up and came over to vigorously shake my hand in congratulations – more delighted by my birthday than his own….
When the plane began to fill up a woman and her daughter came all the way to the back with a huge bag. I began to wonder to myself if I should offer to help them with it, when Ian popped up, told them he’d get it, and lifted it up and shoved it in the overhead compartment. When two men came down the aisle with a box they weren’t sure would fit overhead, he intervened and told them it would – “trust me” – and put it up for them.
He chatted amiably with his neighbors during the flight, and when we landed was up out of his seat first thing to help that woman get her bag down.
From this brief encounter, I dare say Ian is friendlier, better adjusted and more considerate than about half of the people on the streets of Manhattan or San Francisco on any given day. Yet most of those people are perfectly unperturbed by the elimination of babies with Down syndrome in the womb. To hell with them. God bless Sarah Palin for bringing Trig into the world, and may he shower those around him with as much sunshine as the gentleman I met on that flight.
[Photo courtesy of Newsweek]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Amen.
Funny thing I had a very similar experience the other day in a Coles bookstore.
I went to meet my daughter in the teen section at the back of the store and flopped on the floor intently reading a book, was a young fellow. When he heard me approach he lifted his face up and beamed a wonderful “Hello!”. I was taken aback and then I saw immediately that he was about 15 and had Down Syndrome. I returned his hello and asked him what he was reading! He proceeeded to tell me all about the picture book he was reading! He was the friendliest sort of fellow!
It’s truly a shame these babies are getting aborted. All I could think of is that this was one baby lucky enough to get through the Down Syndrome abortion net!
I have the pleasure of volunteering at an art studio at a sheltered workshop once a week. This is a new endeaver for the workshop, with manufacturing-type jobs drying up in our area. One beautiful artist has Downs. She is doing some beautiful paintings that would put my artistic abilities to shame. I mean to tell you these a paintings you would be glad to have in your office or home. But that is not all, she comforts and supports many of the other artists who may become frustrated or agitated. Again, she is so kind and considerate, she puts her arm around the other artists and really helps them calm down and gain their composure. She is so loving and kind, I am so sorry for all the Downs babies that other families have aborted. In case the reader hasn’t seen the statistic, it is 90% of Downs babies that are aborted. Do the research as I have. 90% – what a sad nation we live in.
janie – I know – it’s very sad! :(
No Downs person, child or adult, has ever failed to say hello to me, smile at me or give me a hug in welcome. They are truly angels on Earth.
A meeting was held quite far from earth.
It
Janie, I used to go to a coffee shop where the owners cousin was a young man w/ DS who did all the artwork. It was all really cool. I commented on how much I liked a particular piece and she told me the story.
I’m thankful that little Trig is being shown to the world. Hopefully this will help with ds awareness.
Rich,
You took the words right out of my mouth.
There’s a lady in my town who ran a residence for developmentally disabled children/adults for over 40 years. She took no gov’t assistance. She never turned a child away, even though the place had maxed capacity. Alot of these children were left on her doorstep. When donations were low and there wasn’t enough food to feed everyone, she would take her gun and shoot quail so as to make sure everyone would have something to eat.
She has since passed away, but her daughter continues the work. Imagine all the virtues these women practiced for the sake of the most despised.
Barack, shame on you.
Yeah, Carder…I bet Obamanator would have no problem stating these kids would be a “burdern” to society and to their parents.
Carder, What a remarkable pair! I pray that I may be as giving as these women have proven to be.
Great article, Jill.
Gee, even Trig, a Down’s baby, can impact the world. Isn’t God wonderful?
Mark 10:13-15 ‘”13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”‘
ABOUT SARAH PALIN
I am a resident of Wasilla, Alaska. I have known Sarah since 1992.
Everyone here knows Sarah, so it is nothing special to say we are on a
first-name basis. Our children have attended the same schools. Her
father was my child’s favorite substitute teacher. I also am on a
first name basis with her parents and mother-in-law. I attended more
City Council meetings during her administration than about 99% of the
residents of the city.
She is enormously popular; in every way she’s like the most popular
girl in middle school. Even men who think she is a poor choice and
won’t vote for her can’t quit smiling when talking about her because
she is a “babe”.
It is astonishing and almost scary how well she can keep a secret. She
kept her most recent pregnancy a secret from her children and parents
for seven months.
She is “pro-life”. She recently gave birth to a Down’s syndrome baby.
There is no cover-up involved, here; Trig is her baby.
She is energetic and hardworking. She regularly worked out at the gym.
She is savvy. She doesn’t take positions; she just “puts things out
there” and if they prove to be popular, then she takes credit.
Her husband works a union job on the North Slope for BP and is a
champion snowmobile racer. Todd Palin’s kind of job is highly
sought-after because of the schedule and high pay. He arranges his
work schedule so he can fish for salmon in Bristol Bay for a month or
so in summer, but by no stretch of the imagination is fishing their
major source of income. Nor has her life-style ever been anything
like that of native Alaskans.
Sarah and her whole family are avid hunters.
She’s smart.
Her experience is as mayor of a city with a population of about 5,000
(at the time), and less than 2 years as governor of a state with about
670,000 residents.
During her mayoral administration most of the actual work of running
this small city was turned over to an administrator. She had been
pushed to hire this administrator by party power-brokers after she had
gotten herself into some trouble over precipitous firings which had
given rise to a recall campaign.
Sarah campaigned in Wasilla as a “fiscal conservative”. During her 6
years as Mayor, she increased general government expenditures by over
33%. During those same 6 years the amount of taxes collected by the
City increased by 38%. This was during a period of low inflation
(1996-2002). She reduced progressive property taxes and increased a
regressive sales tax which taxed even food. The tax cuts that she
promoted benefited large corporate property owners way more than they
benefited residents.
The huge increases in tax revenues during her mayoral administration
weren’t enough to fund everything on her wish list though, borrowed
money was needed, too. She inherited a city with zero debt, but left it
with indebtedness of over $22 million. What did Mayor Palin encourage
the voters to borrow money for? Was it the infrastructure that she said
she supported? The sewage treatment plant that the city lacked? or a
new library? No. $1m for a park. $15m-plus for construction of a
multi-use sports complex which she rushed through to build on a piece
of property that the City didn’t even have clear title to, that was
still in litigation 7 yrs later–to the delight of the lawyers
involved! The sports complex itself is a nice addition to the
community but a huge money pit, not the profit-generator she claimed it
would be. She also supported bonds for $5.5m for road projects that
could have been done in 5-7 yrs without any borrowing.
While Mayor, City Hall was extensively remodeled and her office
redecorated more than once.
These are small numbers, but Wasilla is a very small city.
As an oil producer, the high price of oil has created a budget surplus
in Alaska. Rather than invest this surplus in technology that will
make us energy independent and increase efficiency, as Governor she
proposed distribution of this surplus to every individual in the state.
In this time of record state revenues and budget surpluses, she
recommended that the state borrow/bond for road projects, even while
she proposed distribution of surplus state revenues: spend today’s
surplus, borrow for needs.
She’s not very tolerant of divergent opinions or open to outside ideas
or compromise. As Mayor, she fought ideas that weren’t generated by
her or her staff. Ideas weren’t evaluated on their merits, but on the
basis of who proposed them.
While Sarah was Mayor of Wasilla she tried to fire our highly respected
City Librarian because the Librarian refused to consider removing from
the library some books that Sarah wanted removed. City residents
rallied to the defense of the City Librarian and against Palin’s
attempt at out-and-out censorship, so Palin backed down and withdrew
her termination letter. People who fought her attempt to oust the
Librarian are on her enemies list to this day.
Sarah complained about the “old boy’s club” when she first ran for
Mayor, so what did she bring Wasilla? A new set of “old boys”. Palin
fired most of the experienced staff she inherited. At the City and as
Governor she hired or elevated new, inexperienced, obscure people,
creating a staff totally dependent on her for their jobs and eternally
grateful and fiercely loyal–loyal to the point of abusing their power
to further her personal agenda, as she has acknowledged happened in the
case of pressuring the State’s top cop (see below).
As Mayor, Sarah fired Wasilla’s Police Chief because he “intimidated”
her, she told the press. As Governor, her recent firing of Alaska’s top
cop has the ring of familiarity about it. He served at her pleasure
and she had every legal right to fire him, but it’s pretty clear that
an important factor in her decision to fire him was because he wouldn’t
fire her sister’s ex-husband, a State Trooper. Under investigation
for abuse of power, she has had to admit that more than 2 dozen
contacts were made between her staff and family to the person that she
later fired, pressuring him to fire her ex-brother-in-law. She tried to
replace the man she fired with a man who she knew had been reprimanded
for sexual harassment; when this caused a public furor, she withdrew
her support.
She has bitten the hand of every person who extended theirs to her in
help. The City Council person who personally escorted her around town
introducing her to voters when she first ran for Wasilla City Council
became one of her first targets when she was later elected Mayor. She
abruptly fired her loyal City Administrator; even people who didn’t
like the guy were stunned by this ruthlessness.
Fear of retribution has kept all of these people from saying anything
publicly about her.
When then-Governor Murkowski was handing out political plums, Sarah got
the best, Chair of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission: one
of the few jobs not in Juneau and one of the best paid. She had no
background in oil & gas issues. Within months of scoring this great
job which paid $122,400/yr, she was complaining in the press about the
high salary. I was told that she hated that job: the commute, the
structured hours, the work. Sarah became aware that a member of this
Commission (who was also the State Chair of the Republican Party)
engaged in unethical behavior on the job. In a gutsy move which some
undoubtedly cautioned her could be political suicide, Sarah solved all
her problems in one fell swoop: got out of the job she hated and
garnered gobs of media attention as the patron saint of ethics and as a
gutsy fighter against the “old boys’ club” when she dramatically quit,
exposing this man’s ethics violations (for which he was fined).
As Mayor, she had her hand stuck out as far as anyone for pork from
Senator Ted Stevens. Lately, she has castigated his pork-barrel
politics and publicly humiliated him. She only opposed the “bridge to
nowhere” after it became clear that it would be unwise not to.
As Governor, she gave the Legislature no direction and budget
guidelines, then made a big grandstand display of line-item vetoing
projects, calling them pork. Public outcry and further legislative
action restored most of these projects–which had been vetoed simply
because she was not aware of their importance–but with the unobservant
she had gained a reputation as “anti-pork”.
She is solidly Republican: no political maverick. The State party
leaders hate her because she has bit them in the back and humiliated
them. Other members of the party object to her self-description as a
fiscal conservative.
Around Wasilla there are people who went to high school with Sarah.
They call her “Sarah Barracuda” because of her unbridled ambition and
predatory ruthlessness. Before she became so powerful, very ugly
stories circulated around town about shenanigans she pulled to be made
point guard on the high school basketball team. When Sarah’s
mother-in-law, a highly respected member of the community and
experienced manager, ran for Mayor, Sarah refused to endorse her.
As Governor, she stepped outside of the box and put together of package
of legislation known as “AGIA” that forced the oil companies to march
to the beat of her drum.
Like most Alaskans, she favors drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife
Refuge. She has questioned if the loss of sea ice is linked to
global warming. She campaigned “as a private citizen” against a state
initiaitive that would have either a) protected salmon streams from
pollution from mines, or b) tied up in the courts all mining in the
state (depending on who you listen to). She has pushed the State’s
lawsuit against the Dept. of the Interior’s decision to list polar
bears as threatened species.
McCain is the oldest person to ever run for President; Sarah will be a
heartbeat away from being President.
There has to be literally millions of Americans who are more
knowledgeable and experienced than she.
However, there’s a lot of people who have underestimated her and are
regretting it.
CLAIM VS FACT
.”Hockey mom”: true for a few years
.”PTA mom”: true years ago when her first-born was in elementary
school, not since
.”NRA supporter”: absolutely true
.social conservative: mixed. Opposes gay marriage, BUT vetoed a bill
that would have denied benefits to employees in same-sex relationships
(said she did this because it was unconsitutional).
.pro-creationism: mixed. Supports it, BUT did nothing as Governor to
promote it.
.”Pro-life”: mixed. Knowingly gave birth to a Down’s syndrome baby
BUT declined to call a special legislative session on some pro-life
legislation
.”Experienced”: Some high schools have more students than Wasilla has
residents. Many cities have more residents than the state of Alaska.
No legislative experience other than City Council. Little hands-on
supervisory or managerial experience; needed help of a city
administrator to run town of about 5,000.
.political maverick: not at all
.gutsy: absolutely!
.open & transparent: ??? Good at keeping secrets. Not good at
explaining actions.
.has a developed philosophy of public policy: no
.”a Greenie”: no. Turned Wasilla into a wasteland of big box stores
and disconnected parking lots. Is pro-drilling off-shore and in ANWR.
.fiscal conservative: not by my definition!
.pro-infrastructure: No. Promoted a sports complex and park in a city
without a sewage treatment plant or storm drainage system. Built
streets to early 20th century standards.
.pro-tax relief: Lowered taxes for businesses, increased tax burden on
residents
.pro-small government: No. Oversaw greatest expansion of city
government in Wasilla’s history.
.pro-labor/pro-union. No. Just because her husband works union
doesn’t make her pro-labor. I have seen nothing to support any claim
that she is pro-labor/pro-union.
WHY AM I WRITING THIS?
First, I have long believed in the importance of being an informed
voter. I am a voter registrar. For 10 years I put on student voting
programs in the schools. If you google my name (Anne Kilkenny +
Alaska), you will find references to my participation in local
government, education, and PTA/parent organizations.
Secondly, I’ve always operated in the belief that “Bad things happen
when good people stay silent”. Few people know as much as I do because
few have gone to as many City Council meetings.
Third, I am just a housewife. I don’t have a job she can bump me out
of. I don’t belong to any organization that she can hurt. But, I am no
fool; she is immensely popular here, and it is likely that this will
cost me somehow in the future: that’s life.
Fourth, she has hated me since back in 1996, when I was one of the 100
or so people who rallied to support the City Librarian against Sarah’s
attempt at censorship.
Fifth, I looked around and realized that everybody else was afraid to
say anything because they were somehow vulnerable.
CAVEATS
I am not a statistician. I developed the numbers for the increase in
spending & taxation 2 years ago (when Palin was running for Governor)
from information supplied to me by the Finance Director of the City of
Wasilla, and I can’t recall exactly what I adjusted for: did I adjust
for inflation? for population increases? Right now, it is impossible
for a private person to get any info out of City Hall–they are
swamped. So I can’t verify my numbers.
You may have noticed that there are various numbers circulating for the
population of Wasilla, ranging from my “about 5,000”, up to 9,000. The
day Palin’s selection was announced a city official told me that the
current population is about 7,000. The official 2000 census count was
5,460. I have used about 5,000 because Palin was Mayor from 1996 to
2002, and the city was growing rapidly in the mid-90’s.
Anne Kilkenny
HYPERLINK “mailto:annekilkenny@hotmail.com”
August 31, 2008
carder: “Barack, shame on you.”
RSD: “Yeah, Carder…I bet Obamanator would have no problem stating these kids would be a “burdern” to society and to their parents.”
Actually, Obama is pro-choice, which means that if someone wants to have a baby with Down Syndrome, that’s fine with him. He has a detailed plan to improve the lives of Americans with disabilities and their families. Perhaps most important of these is universal health care, so parents will never again have to worry about the cost of having a disabled child.
I think it is funny how you pander to the developmentaly challenged – as if they have nothing more to offer than angel kisses and that is their purpose in life. Wow. Talk about diminishing a person. When I talk to my cat in a cutsy voice I often wonder what she thinks about that…prob. not much, its just a cat. But to do the same to a person is different. It annoyed me at 8 years old to be condescended to, and it would sure annoy me if I were so disabled that people would be stupid enough to do that to me. I honesty wait for the day when someone tries that on a disabled person who promptly tells the condescender to piss off. That would be a moment to smile about.
Beautifully said. It is a travesty that this country puts such little value on the lives of those with disabilities, especially when we can learn so many valuable lessons in love and charity from these individuals. MANY prayers that McCain and Palin will be elected so as to not allow Obama and his death-promoting legislature to run rampant.
The Truth: what WERE you hoping to accomplish by your comment on this thread?
And who gives a rats ass about Annne KilKenny?
And what’s this statement suppose to mean:
The Truth 4:27, is always refreshing. I am sure the account is truthful and is by a Wasilla resident, as all of the major facts are supported by numerous sources including city records and the Wall Street Journal.
Thank you for giving some perspective on “Saint Sarah”.
As for Anne Kilkenny. Some of the issues she raises are valid concerns, but the fact that she mixes them with invalid concerns (like OMG she’s not a hockey mom now…) make this list seem a bit petty.
I have *actual* concerns with her fiscal management, but I don’t think Ms. Kilkenny does a good job distinguishing these concerns from her personal dislike for Gov. Palin.
Ms. Kilkenny:
You apparently have an axe to grind.
Also, I suspect you are a Liberal plant. We’re seeing a lot of your types and it’s not gonna work.
Sara Palin speaks volumes over your rants.
Go away.
Patricia,
“Knowingly as if Sarah committed a crime by KNOWINGLY giving birth to a DS baby – Maybe MS Kilkenny thinks that if Sarah knew she was gonna have a DS baby she should have gotten rid of it?”
Knowingly, as in got genetic testing and still chose to give birth…it’s a little different if you don’t get the testing done and give birth, y’know?
“Fourth, she has hated me since back in 1996, when I was one of the 100 or so people who rallied to support the City Librarian against Sarah’s attempt at censorship.
Guess what Anne – I don’t much like you either!”
I think the censorship is a valid concern, Patricia.
I don’t think she was bringing up the “avid hunters” thing to cast a poor light. When I started reading it I thought it was a piece on why Palin would be a good candidate.
Overall, I thought it was a good article. The author wrote about Palin’s strengths and weaknesses (obviously more about weaknesses, since she’s against her) and presented why she thought Palin would not be a good VP candidate.
Hi Yo La Tango at September 5, 2008 4:40 PM,
You have come very close to a difficulty. The folks at http://www.notdeadyet.org express it much better than I can. This ‘problem’ keeps cropping up and Jerry Lewis of telethon fame exploits it to the max.
I used to think that way too, until I began to understand that many people have a big heart and need to touch me somehow. So I’m OK that many just pat me on the head; and I insist that ‘macho’ males hug me.
I now believe that I have unusual power. Power to make someone strong weep; power of loving to help someone not be afraid of being vulnerable. I have few enemies and so am a threat to no one … except myself.
Peace be in you ….
There is a French film with English subtitles with one of the main actors a Down’s syndrome guy
The name of the film is “Le Huiteme jour” or “the eighth day”
it is a wonderful film can just make you laugh and cry!
A must see !
Steph, I’ve read that in Alaska testing is manditory because very few of their hospitals have the ability to deal with the possible heart troubles that DS children often have.
Beautiful testimony of the kindnesses offered to strangers by Ian, an exceptional human being.
LTL, (lots to learn)
So you have had a few days to thing about it.
What species of embryo/fetus was in your mother’s uterus when she was pregnant with you?
affectionately
your knuckle dragging neanderthal, not bitter, but still clinging to Jesus and my guns
Rich Lowry -Amen brother.
I’m watching Greta Van Sustern and it seems that Ms. Kilkenny is the only one in AK who has an axe to grind with Sarah Palin. Greta interviewed the current mayor of Wasilla who gave a glowing thumbs up for Sarah. There are various others being interviewed and they all seem to think she’s great. Go, Sarah!! Go away, Anne!!
I don’t have time to read all of these comments tonight, but I can tell you as a mother of a child with Downs, they have an incredible love and appreciation for things we would never think of. One recent example was on Sunday my young daughter (almost 10) asked me what date it was (she is very interested in this information). I told her it was August 31, the last day of August and tomorrow would be the first day of September. She gave me a big hug and said, “Oh thank you Mommy, thank you, thank you, thank you!” She was so excited it was going to be a new month, and apparently believes I have something to do with it! :-) This appreciation for everyday things is a common occurence in our home. Being the mother of a child with Down syndrome is definitely NOT a thankless job! It is a great blessing, one which I can hardly believe God would bestow on me.
Gov. Palin’s message for those families of children with special needs touched me so much. This cannot be a big voting bloc; it came from her heart. She did it to tell us that she understands what’s going on….the persecution of babies with Down syndrome and other conditions that can be diagnosed prenatally. Thank you, Governor Palin!
Steph, I’ve read that in Alaska testing is manditory because very few of their hospitals have the ability to deal with the possible heart troubles that DS children often have.
Posted by: lauren at September 5, 2008 7:30 PM
Lauren, the next step in this scenario after mandatory testing for DS and other “defects” is mandatory abortion to “save” money in a nanny-state-run health”care” system.
Eileen,
Thank you for your heartwarming story about your daughter.
“The Truth”: “While Sarah was Mayor of Wasilla she tried to fire our highly respected City Librarian because the Librarian refused to consider removing from the library some books that Sarah wanted removed. City residents rallied to the defense of the City Librarian and against Palin’s attempt at out-and-out censorship, so Palin backed down and withdrew her termination letter. People who fought her attempt to oust the Librarian are on her enemies list to this day.”
I haven’t gotten a chance to read/understand this situation, but here is a blog that has brought this up:
http://safelibraries.blogspot.com/2008/08/sarah-palin-outed-by-library-on.html
Many librarians are influenced by the American LIbrary Association, which has some very extreme views. The above blog covers ALA and library related news. Also see http://www.safelibraries.org/
No doubt the books she wanted removed were inappropriate for young eyes to see. It is truly shocking when you learn the books the ALA recommends for pre-teen and teen readers and books that are available in children’s sections.
If the books were anything like the pornography for children that PP put out not too long ago, I have but one thing to say: GO SARAH, GO!
Thanks for the info, biased axe-grinder!
And Eileen, we’ve disagreed harshly in the past, I’m pretty sure…but I respect you…and honor you now because you do something great everyday that I always feared I could not find the strength myself to do if put in your shoes, even and perhaps especially after spending a year working in the special education field. Those children are so precious…and require yet give so much…please give her a hug for me.
.pro-tax relief: Lowered taxes for businesses, increased tax burden on residents.
Posted by: The Truth at September 5, 2008 4:27 PM
The truth, are you really being hinest with yourself or do you have an axe to grind. Just curious why you failed to mention giving 1200 to each tax paying resident as part of her tax relief. Was it cause you didn’t think it was imortant enough to mention, or maybe you forgot about your check, or maybe you speak the truth but without the truths that don’t support your position. Try the whole truth next time and let people make their own decision.
Oh and you should change your name from truth to Partial Truth, or maybe it just slipped your mind that she cut your property taxes too?
I don’t care what anyone says I think that picture is beautiful.
Intellectual Inconsistency
I was once charged with trespass for refusing to move from the doorway of a building where pre-natal humans were being killed. In the subsequent trial I was interviewing perspective jurors. They all answered questions under oath, understanding that lying would be perjury, a crime. I read the part of the 14th amenndment to the U.S. Constitution which states: ‘nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
I asked each perspective juror which of these three rights was pre-eminent, life, liberty, or property. Each one of them said liberty was the most important. I then asked them how you could possibly enjoy liberty if you had been denied life. They all said you could not. I then said, ‘If that is true, then you would have to say the right to life trumps all others, would you not?’ Each one of them, in turn, agreed. Life is numero uno/number one.
Now here is the interesting part. I could only interview one juror at a time. The remainder of the jury pool was present and heard me ask all the previous persons the same questions. But when it came their turn, each one of them answered the same way. Initially, liberty was the most important right, but when asked how you could enjoy liberty without life, logic dictated that the right to life is our most valuable right.
All the perspective jurors answered the questions honestly. But initially they were all honestly wrong. When required to exercise logic they had to acknowledge the truth: Without life every other right is meaningless.
What kind of embryo/fetus was in your mother’s uterus when she was pregnant with you?
Here are some clues: not bovine, not feline, not canine.
I know this is really difficult for some of you. You do not want jeopardize your bliss by giving up on your willful ignorance.
Are you smarter than a fifth grader?
And all the fifth graders said, “Human!”
What do you say?
ps:They convicted me of criminal trespass. I believe they would have voted to execute me if the penalty had been available. I know some of you would have.
I wonder if the book she wanted removed was the planned parenthood promoted pornography book “Its Perfectly Normal”. If so, she didn’t want children exposed to inappropriate sexual information. We’re talking graphic pictures of sexual intercourse and how to do other certain acts. And I believe I read the book promotes abortion “10 reasons to have an abortion”, too.
xalisae,
Thank you for that compliment, that was very nice. Honestly, it hardly seems like a big deal in the care department; in many ways the care is the same…the stages of childhood just last a bit longer than others. Having her in my life is such a joy, that I don’t really think about it requiring strength out of the ordinary. Love makes it easy.
I did notice though that another Eileen posts here so I may or may not be the same one.
John McDonell – With complete respect, while such treatment may be okay with you, I don’t think it is universally okay. Some people like being talked to gently, and do see their role in life as being an angel, giving existential moments of insights to those they meet simply by being there. But such a role should not be foisted on persons by society simply by virtue of their percieved diminished capacities. And such informality can seem rude from people that are basically strangers. Thank you for your insights.
The Truth,
Apparently most Alaskans don’t see things your way since they approve Palin with something close to 90%
And Yo Lang, you sound like a very fearful person. That’s a symptom of so many today since we have been made to fear one another and are so remote from one another. That’s why we have to have “causes” rather than simple association. That kind of fear had to be overcome with other minorities too.
It’s really frightening the things today that people don’t fear!
“I asked each perspective juror which of these three rights was pre-eminent, life, liberty, or property. Each one of them said liberty was the most important. I then asked them how you could possibly enjoy liberty if you had been denied life. They all said you could not. I then said, ‘If that is true, then you would have to say the right to life trumps all others, would you not?’ Each one of them, in turn, agreed. Life is numero uno/number one.”
Nice!
“No doubt the books she wanted removed were inappropriate for young eyes to see. It is truly shocking when you learn the books the ALA recommends for pre-teen and teen readers and books that are available in children’s sections.”
The book I’m reading for African American Literature continually makes a point of why slave owners didn’t want their slaves to read, knowledge is power. They didn’t want them to have any power. Why did Hitler and his regime sponsor book burnings? Knowledge is power. The number one thing you can do to keep people down is to keep them ignorant.
That may be true Jess, but that does not implicate Palin necessarily.
You are assuming that because censorship is sometimes a requirement for “control,” or as you say it, the withholding of power, that it is in fact sufficient to say that censorship denotes “control.”
Censorship may be required for control, but it doesnt mean that censorship is only used to control.
Think about it, you cant put Hustlers in the local elementary school.
PIP, I don’t know why you were quoting but another important part of the slave narratives I was reading for my AAL class all said that so many slaves were willing to risk death by running away to freedom then to stay and live without liberty.
If you asked Frederick Douglass what was more important, life or liberty, what do you think he would say? What about Harriet Tubman?
Well what was she censoring Oliver? And why can’t we put Hustler’s in elementary schools? The first time I saw a naked man (I was about 5 I followed my Dad into the locker room of the local YMCA and saw some random old man completely nude) I cried for hours. Maybe if we traumatized kids they be scared straight. Just kidding ; )
kbhvac,
Everyone should pay attention to this. This goes to show that our “intuitions” when examined can actually turn out to be in conflict with out other intuitions. By trying to explain the overall principles underlying our intuitions we can learn to see that some are false, and even to derive new inuitions.
Hence, the abortion argument! You may say “you know what, ultimately I just ‘feel’ like abortion should be right” and that is just fine. However, if I challenge you to reexamine that intuition by facing your other principles that run in conflict with your “pro-choice” intuitions, you need to either reconcile your principles properly, or admit that your belief is flawed.
You may say for example, “killing is just wrong. I dont know why, but I just ‘feel’ it to be so.”
Now, this may be true, but all I need to do is to posit the question “Is it wrong to kill to defend yourself?”
Now, you may say “Yes,” which would be in line with your previous intuition, but you may say “No,” which would be in conflict with your previous inuition.
If you say “No,” you are confronting a principle that you hold that in fact conflicts with the intuition that “killing is wrong.”
Where you go from here is the important part. Does it mean that your inuition is wrong? That killing is just okay afterall? Not necessarily. It could be the case that your original intuition was really “Killing is wrong, except when it is in self defense.”
Now you need to try to understand what underlies the exception. If you carefully analyze it, or bring in other “exceptions”, you will see that there must be some difference between killing “for defense” and killing “for other reasons.”
Ultimately Im sure we would agree that it has to do with the conflict with other people’s rights. From there you could continue to establish a moral code based on the ultimate principles underlying your belief that “killing is wrong.”
This is what I hope to cause in every pro-choice person. I want them to analyze their base intuitions to try and understand that abortion in fact falls outside of them.
Jess,
He meant that liberty can’t be enjoyed without life. It’s hard to be liberated when you are dead..
Jess,
It turns out she didnt actually censor anything. She just asked the librarian what she thought about censorship.
http://www.schoollibraryjournal.com/article/CA6593199.html?rssid=190
Personally, I wouldnt want a librarian who would refuse to censor. I dont want my children going into a library and looking up porn on the library computer, or checking out X-rated material.
I am against most censorship in literature, but I wouldnt want to give any quarter to “smut” on the basis of “literary freedom.” In fact, some of my favorite Sci-Fi books are way too smutty. I would at the very minimum want the library to restrict access to those kinds of books.
By the way, that is to say that I am for certain censorship in PUBLIC libraries, not to be confused with general censorship. I think people should be allowed to publish whatever the hell they want, I just dont want it in the library.
“Personally, I wouldn’t want a librarian who would refuse to censor. I don’t want my children going into a library and looking up porn on the library computer, or checking out X-rated material.”
Maybe if you actually did your job as a parent and went with them to the library you could help them find appropriate books. What’s with all these Mom’s and Dad’s today expecting everyone else to take care of their children for them?
My Dad would take my sister and me to the library every Saturday morning when we were kids. Now as an adult I greatly enjoy reading and even enjoy reading actual grown up books. You may be satisfied only having baby books in your library but I enjoy a little more deep reading.
“By the way, that is to say that I am for certain censorship in PUBLIC libraries, not to be confused with general censorship. I think people should be allowed to publish whatever the hell they want, I just don’t want it in the library.”
So only the wealthy can own certain books? You have to have the money to buy books before you can read them? Why? You can have as many kids as you want before you can afford them, the government will just pick up the tab.
I guess intelligence isn’t necessary in this entitled baby-crazed culture of ours. I mean, we don’t even need to be literate to have babies!
Jess: “Maybe if you actually did your job as a parent and went with them to the library you could help them find appropriate books. What’s with all these Mom’s and Dad’s today expecting everyone else to take care of their children for them?”
I never said that I would not go with them. However, I will say that when my children are 15ish, I would like to be able to let them run loose without a leash in the library without having to worry about pornography.
Jess: “My Dad would take my sister and me to the library every Saturday morning when we were kids. Now as an adult I greatly enjoy reading and even enjoy reading actual grown up books. You may be satisfied only having baby books in your library but I enjoy a little more deep reading.”
See, I find that interesting that you call smut “deep reading.”
Last time I checked Joyce, Faulkner, Dosteovsky, Tolstoy, Hemmingway, Conrad, Woolfe etc etc etc etc were able to avoid out and out smut. I guess theyre just “baby” books though.
(By the way, I know Ulysess was vulgar at the time it was published, and maybe then it even should not have appeared in public libraries. However, now that our society is so “enlightened” it takes soft-core to hard-core pornographer to offend our sensibilities. These are the pieces of “literature” that should not be available in a public library. I dont think Hustler should be among the magazines, and I dont think Jenna Jamison should be among the DVD rental sections either. Call me old fashion.)
Jess: “So only the wealthy can own certain books? You have to have the money to buy books before you can read them? Why? You can have as many kids as you want before you can afford them, the government will just pick up the tab.
I guess intelligence isn’t necessary in this entitled baby-crazed culture of ours. I mean, we don’t even need to be literate to have babies!”
Only the wealthy should be able to own pornography?
Only the wealthy should be able to own a car? Or watch cable? Or go to the movies? Or go see a musical? Or go to a concert? Or drink beer?
Im sorry, but I think that the government should not be required to cater to our every need. If you cannot afford the 2-10 dollars to pick up a book at Half-priced Books, then maybe you need to be spending some free time working a job instead of reading.
“I never said that I would not go with them. However, I will say that when my children are 15ish, I would like to be able to let them run loose without a leash in the library without having to worry about pornography.”
If you can’t trust them not to look at porn in a library how are you going to trust them not to look at porn in their friends house? On your computer? You can’t expect the world to look after your kids, you have to teach them how to become mature and responsible. I’m surprised I have to tell you this.
And would you consider “Huckleberry Finn” smut? many schools want to ban it because it’s “oh no racist!” Which is hilarious because anyone with half a brain would know it’s a satire on prejudice and ignorance in the south.
If topics dealing with racism is smut then why don’t we stop teaching about the Civil War, abolitionist, the Civil Rights Movement? Why don’t we go ahead and forget that slavery ever existed?
“Im sorry, but I think that the government should not be required to cater to our every need.”
Then why do you want the government to censor things for you? You can have as many children as you want and the government has to care for them, WIC and welfare. Of course we should punish the people who want to better themselves through knowledge then just keep working their menial jobs and popping out kids!
The Public Library has a duty to the public (hence the public part) that Johnny’s mom doesnt.
I pay for the Public Library, I hope they can use some decency when selecting their materials.
And no, I dont support the censorship of Huck Finn. If it were truly racist, that would be another thing. Would you not support the censorship of a book glamourizing rape? How would you feel if it was being supported in public schools or the public library.
Jess: “Then why do you want the government to censor things for you? You can have as many children as you want and the government has to care for them, WIC and welfare. Of course we should punish the people who want to better themselves through knowledge then just keep working their menial jobs and popping out kids!”
There is a difference. If you are having children, the government is taking care of THEM, not you. They are making sure they are not neglected.
I dont think its bettering yourself through knowledge to read Hustler. Try reading some of the truly great novelists of our time. Theyre for the most part free of smut.
http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/banned-books.html
“In 1930, U.S. Customs seized Harvard-bound copies of Candide, Voltaire’s critically hailed satire, claiming obscenity. Two Harvard professors defended the work, and it was later admitted in a different edition. In 1944, the US Post Office demanded the omission of Candide from a mailed Concord Books catalog.”
“Aristophanes’ Lysistrata, Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales, Boccaccio’s Decameron, Defoe’s Moll Flanders, and various editions of The Arabian Nights were all banned for decades from the U.S. mails under the Comstock Law of 1873. Officially known as the Federal Anti-Obscenity Act, this law banned the mailing of “lewd”, “indecent”, “filthy”, or “obscene” materials. The Comstock laws, while now unenforced, remain for the most part on the books today; the Telecommunications Reform Bill of 1996 even specifically applied some of them to computer networks. The anti-war Lysistrata was banned again in 1967 in Greece, which was then controlled by a military junta.”
“Thomas Paine, best known for his writings supporting American independence, was indicted for treason in England in 1792 for his work The Rights of Man, defending the French Revolution. More than one English publisher was also prosecuted for printing The Age of Reason, where Paine argues for Deism and against Christianity and Atheism.”
“There is a difference. If you are having children, the government is taking care of THEM, not you. They are making sure they are not neglected.”
You want kids, you can have kids. You can get more money from welfare if you have more kids. That money doesn’t always go to the kids you know, Mommy has to make sure her hair and nails are done.
And if you pay for the public library and get a say in what they do and do not stock then why can’t I tell people on welfare how to raise their children? I’m paying for them after all.
And I love that you put Hustler in the same boat as The Canterbury Tales. The Canterbury Tales were obviously porn *eyeroll* Geoffrey Chaucer should have known better then to upset your kids with his accurate descriptions of 14th century life.
And again you would probably throw Hustler and The Decameron into the same pile of banned books. Stupid mediaeval people. Shouldn’t they know their hardships would upset your kid? They should have only written down the happy censored stuff!
Oh yeah people have been trying to ban Uncle Tom’s Cabin. It’s in the same link. “Let’s pretend slavery doesn’t exist!” Hey, let’s just pretend abortion doesn’t exist and go along our merry way!
Jess: You want kids, you can have kids. You can get more money from welfare if you have more kids. That money doesn’t always go to the kids you know, Mommy has to make sure her hair and nails are done.”
What the hell are you talking about? Just because people abuse welfare it doesnt follow that welfare is unethical. It should obviously be reformed, but this is entirely irrelevant. If I am mistaken, would you care to explain the analogous relationship?
Jess: “And if you pay for the public library and get a say in what they do and do not stock then why can’t I tell people on welfare how to raise their children? I’m paying for them after all.”
You actually do have some say in a sense, but that isnt the idea. Welfare and Public Schools and Public Libraries all do have something in common. They all are intended to uphold the Public Interest. If some aspect runs against the Public Interest, that aspect, whether it is of Public Libraries, or of Welfare, should not be supported by our tax dollars. I am sure you would agree….it sort of goes in line with your rant about mothers who abuse their aid to get their nails done.
Jess: “And I love that you put Hustler in the same boat as The Canterbury Tales.”
Are you on crack? When did I say that The Canterbury Tales should be censored from Public Libraries? I said that there are certain materials, such as Hustler, that I dont think should be in a Public Library or in a Public School.
Jess: “The Canterbury Tales were obviously porn *eyeroll* Geoffrey Chaucer should have known better then to upset your kids with his accurate descriptions of 14th century life. ”
Yeah again, you are making stuff up. I believe there are certain materials that should not be in Public Libraries, but I never claimed the Canterbury Tales as one.
Do you think that a book glamourizing rape should be in a School or in a Public Library?
Jess: “And again you would probably throw Hustler and The Decameron into the same pile of banned books. Stupid mediaeval people. Shouldn’t they know their hardships would upset your kid? They should have only written down the happy censored stuff!
Oh yeah people have been trying to ban Uncle Tom’s Cabin. It’s in the same link. “Let’s pretend slavery doesn’t exist!” Hey, let’s just pretend abortion doesn’t exist and go along our merry way!”
Are you confusing me for every person who ever censored something in the entire history of literature? What is wrong with you? I never even hinted that I would support the censorship of any of those works. (Although I do think many of them are overrated…Canterbury Tales I am looking at you!)
“Are you on crack? When did I say that The Canterbury Tales should be censored from Public Libraries?”
America had banned the Canterbury Tales before. What other wonderful literature might we be missing out on if we start censoring things? So what you want is to only censor things you don’t like from libraries? What makes you so special that you can tell the government what to stock or not stock in their libraries? You don’t want Hustler in a library? What library ever has ever had Hustler in it? Why not just ban magazines then? There you go. You don’t seem to realize that if you ban one thing for making you uncomfortable it’s a slippery slope before others try to ban things that make them uncomfortable. What if people are uncomfortable with the Bible? Atheists, Muslims, jerks? If there are enough people to vote and vote against the Bible being in public libraries then would you support that?
Eventually everything will be banned and you can rest assured whatever your kids are doing at the library, they aren’t reading.
Canterbury Tales, if only you had the mental capacity to enjoy it Oliver.
What makes you so different from the people who want to ban Uncle Tom’s Cabin? Are we in a dictatorship? Are you our dictator? No. If you get to start censoring literature all other voting adults will be able to as well.
And I think the first thing people will censor are all the photos of pre-born and aborted babies. I’m sure Planned Parenthood will see to that.
Jess, what literature value do you really think child porn has? Good grief. It certainly shouldn’t be in libraries, and the authors of the book should be arrested for publishing the book at all.
Bethany, there’s a big difference between child porn and Uncle Tom’s Cabin. If anyone can find me any public library that has child porn I’ll take back what I said.
Also considering child porn is illegal…
Sorry Jess, I re-read above and realized I may have mixed up yours and oliver’s conversation with lizfromnebraska’s comment about the book, “It’s perfectly normal”. But I’m not totally sure.
Yes, Jess, child porn is illegal…that’s why I’m perplexed about the fact that Planned Parenthood publishes books filled with images of children touching themselves and other sexual acts… If someone had those types of images on their computer and were caught, they could be arrested.
And I think this woman is a hero:
http://www.sunjournal.com/story/230033-3/LewistonAuburn/Woman_keeps_sexed_books/
Oliver, from the link you posted, it sounds like Palin was asking about censorship above and beyond book challenges. Many public or school libraries have a specific course of action, whereby parents (or anybody) can challenge a specific book, and then it gets reviewed by a board of people with the complaints in mind, etc etc, and decided upon. It sounds like for whatever reason, the librarian in question felt like this was different than that:
Press reports ranging from the New York Times and Time magazine to the local Frontiersman and the Anchorage Daily News say that the newly-elected Mayor Palin asked Baker (whose name was Mary Ellen Emmons at the time) about possibly removing objectionable books from the library if the need arose. Baker refused to consider any kind of censorship and replied, “This is different than a normal book-selection procedure or a book-challenge policy,” reports the Frontiersman.
I highly doubt we’re talking about Hustler. Most challenges I’m aware of center around young adult literature. Usually, it seems, due to profanity, acknowledgment of a sexual relationship between unmarried people, or discussions of homosexuality.
We aren’t even censoring child porn here. It’s illegal, for a good reason! If it’s illegal no one should do it, it shouldn’t exist. If it does exist, it should be destroyed and the adults invoved arrested.
Bethany, I was looking at a book of photography in my library. On photograph was a classic nude, but of an elderly woman. There was nothing sexual about her, but there was beauty. It was beautiful to see a body that didn’t have to be photoshopped or sexual or anything like that. It was pure. A woman with a full life shown in every wrinkle. It showed the elderly in a way I don’t think any written text could. Should that be banned? It’s nudity, after all.
We aren’t even censoring child porn here. It’s illegal, for a good reason! If it’s illegal no one should do it, it shouldn’t exist. If it does exist, it should be destroyed and the adults invoved arrested.
Bethany, I was looking at a book of photography in my library. On photograph was a classic nude, but of an elderly woman. There was nothing sexual about her, but there was beauty. It was beautiful to see a body that didn’t have to be photoshopped or sexual or anything like that. It was pure. A woman with a full life shown in every wrinkle. It showed the elderly in a way I don’t think any written text could. Should that be banned? It’s nudity, after all.
No, but it should definitely not be in a children’s section. I know I’ve jumped in and changed the subject slightly, so sorry if I have made it confusing.
We aren’t even censoring child porn here. It’s illegal, for a good reason! If it’s illegal no one should do it, it shouldn’t exist. If it does exist, it should be destroyed and the adults invoved arrested.
I agree!
Bethany she could have written a request for their removal as was the libraries policy. If enough people requested their removal they probably would have removed them. If I stole every Bible from the library because I didn’t like it’s content would that be ok?
It wasn’t just a simple distaste, Jess. The woman saw something that is illegal- child porn- in the children’s section and did what she felt was necessary to keep them from harms way. The reason is to protect children.
What I don’t understand is why Planned Parenthood gets away with this book at all. Why is it allowed?
I mean, I have taken a look inside the book. I was SHOCKED.
So Bethany let’s just keep the naked people and violence out of the children’s sections. You can tell your kids, “Now this is the section where you can find all of your books.” Let me go and read my V.C. Andrews in the angst-ridden young adult section thank you.
Jess: “America had banned the Canterbury Tales before. What other wonderful literature might we be missing out on if we start censoring things? So what you want is to only censor things you don’t like from libraries? What makes you so special that you can tell the government what to stock or not stock in their libraries?”
I wouldnt say that I am personally so special. However, the Public Interest is. Now, it is up to the Government to figure out what is in fact in the Public’s Interest, even if that ends up being against the majority. Therefore I would be upset with any Librarian opposed to censorship. It may turn out that it only prevents porn from making its way into the Public Schools/Libraries, but heck, I would like a Librarian to support that notion.
Jess: “You don’t want Hustler in a library? Why not just ban magazines then? There you go. You don’t seem to realize that if you ban one thing for making you uncomfortable it’s a slippery slope before others try to ban things that make them uncomfortable.”
I thought the “Slippery Slope” argument was used by the right wing?
This argument is flawed beyond belief. You are essentially saying that we shouldnt make anything illegal, because then everything would be illegal.
While I will admit that it seems to be the case that the slope is indeed “slippery,” it does not automatically mean we, as a society, will slip. It may be a balancing act, in the sense that we go too far one way, then too far in correcting ourselves, but that is why we have appointed officials that work to prevent that from happening.
We shouldnt make it wrong to fight physically, because the next thing you know, it will be wrong to get in a verbal argument!
See how that makes no sense?
Jess: “What if people are uncomfortable with the Bible? Atheists, Muslims, jerks? If there are enough people to vote and vote against the Bible being in public libraries then would you support that?”
I would support whatever was in the best interest for the public. Im sure you see a difference between porn and a religious work. It isnt reasonable to expect the vast majority of people to be restricted because of a very minor minority. If there exist people who are literally afraid for their children to read a Bible/Koran, and those people are a significant population, then it may be in the Public Interest to not have religious material. It is a thin line I will admit, but it has to be carefully considered.
Jess: “Eventually everything will be banned and you can rest assured whatever your kids are doing at the library, they aren’t reading.”
Yes Jess, and eventually, by banning Hustler, we will have to live in cages at the will of the Government.
For someone who is supposedly Democrat, you sure seem to support the idea that Government intervention will throw us in an Orwellian society.
Jess: “Canterbury Tales, if only you had the mental capacity to enjoy it Oliver.”
Is that the tagline to Canterbury Tales or did you just create a sentence fragment?
I did read it, and although I respect its place in the historical development of literature, and even though I did find some of the tales amusing, I find that taken out of its historical context, when compared against 19th century literature greats, such as Joyce, that it doesnt hold up.
Maybe you were brainwashed into thinking it was amazing because thats what the intelligentsia told you to think?
“What library ever has ever had Hustler in it?”
http://www.techlawjournal.com/censor/19981124.htm
“U.S. District Court Judge Leonie Brinkema ruled yesterday that the Loudoun County Library can no longer continue its policy of running software on its public use computers that blocks access to Internet pornography. ”
They do seem to allow internet porn.
Besides, my point is that if the Library wanted to bring in Hustler, I would support a Librarian saying “No. This needs to not be allowed in the Library.”
Again, I havent seen you answer this yet, but would you support a novel glamourizing rape or racism being in a Public School or in a Public Library?
That was me by the way.
So Bethany let’s just keep the naked people and violence out of the children’s sections. You can tell your kids, “Now this is the section where you can find all of your books.” Let me go and read my V.C. Andrews in the angst-ridden young adult section thank you.
Jess, child porn doesn’t belong in the adult OR the children’s section. It doesn’t belong at all.
It’s allowed Bethany because Planned Parenthood is a very powerful business. Maybe I’ll write a book about why Planned Parenthood gets away with the illegal stuff that they do. Better hope it doesn’t get banned!
It’s allowed Bethany because Planned Parenthood is a very powerful business.
I think you are right about that, Jess.
Actually Bethany I’m writing this piece for my creative writing class that I’m thinking about calling “The Rite of Autumn.” I don’t know if you’ve ever seen “The Rite of Spring” but while that was focusing on youth, virginity and new life mine will focus on the precious treasures the elderly give to us through their knowledge.
And I haven’t gotten to do the once-a week-cooking, well I did make about two tupierware containers filled with mashed potatoes! Now I have some mashed potatoes with every meal, lol.
“Jess, child porn doesn’t belong in the adult OR the children’s section. It doesn’t belong at all.”
Uh, yeah it’s illegal. Planned Parenthood will just give the library more copies and she’ll be banned for there. Much good that would do.
Actually Bethany I’m writing this piece for my creative writing class that I’m thinking about calling “The Rite of Autumn.” I don’t know if you’ve ever seen “The Rite of Spring” but while that was focusing on youth, virginity and new life mine will focus on the precious treasures the elderly give to us through their knowledge.
That sounds really nice, Jess. :) I would love to read it when it’s finished.
And I haven’t gotten to do the once-a week-cooking, well I did make about two tupierware containers filled with mashed potatoes! Now I have some mashed potatoes with every meal, lol.
I love mashed potatoes…it’s a start!!
Jess, child porn doesn’t belong in the adult OR the children’s section. It doesn’t belong at all.
I think it goes without saying that child porn doesn’t belong in a library.
So I’m not really following you. Jess said, keep books with naked people or violence out of the children’s section. You said, child porn doesn’t belong anywhere. Are you still talking about the book with the cartoon drawings? Or about any naked-pictured or violent book?
Alexandra and Bethany, child porn is illegal, it should be, and therefore it shouldn’t be anywhere. The Canterbury Tales are not illegal and I don’t think they should be. Do you think the Canterbury Tales should be illegal? They were illegal once in America. So no censorship for me please.
Who cares what she is refering to? The point is that certain types of literature deserve to be censored no matter what.
Whether or not this is what Palin has in mind is up to Palin to divulge. I know that I would be concerned with a Librarian who opposed any censorship though.
I dont want books promoting rape or racism in schools or libraries either. Would you support a book openly promoting rape being in a library?
Rape is illegal Oliver. Also, you could claim the Bible advocates rape. Lot’s two daughters got him drunk and had sex with him. The last time I checked getting someone drunk and having sex with them without their consent is rape.
I guess you could say it also advocates incest.
Now cue Hisman to come in a tell me I”m blasphemous.
I dont want books promoting rape or racism in schools or libraries either. Would you support a book openly promoting rape being in a library?
Why won’t anyone answer that question?
Who cares what she is refering to?
Well, since you yourself seem to see how easily refusing to stock certain books can become a slippery slope, I’d think the what’s and how’s would be very important. I was merely asking — not what she wanted censored, but if you knew why the librarian felt that it went outside the realm of a normal book challenge. It was an honest question. Since that librarian didn’t seem to have a problem with community-driven book challenges, I don’t think that you can say that she would refuse to “censor” at all.
The problem with just saying, “a book promoting rape,” is of course, that without seeing the book in question, no one knows what to think. You could read Palahniuk’s Survivor and say that it advocates the hijacking of airplanes, but that is, most would agree, seriously missing the point. But I’m sure some people object to it because they feel it glorifies bad things. Likewise some people probably feel that Lolita glorifies pedophilia, but most people agree that they’re missing the point. So without an actual book to read and understand, it’s difficult to say, “I’d want that banned!”
I guess I would support a book promoting rape to be in a library. I would just have to hope that we, men and women, will not be drawn in to what it is suggesting but respect each other and our right to choose our own partners.
It is also my opinion that only a really evil person would commit a rape, therefore rape should be able to carry the death penalty.
On a different topic, I absolutely LOVE the photo of Sarah Palin holding Trig at the beginning of this thread! She’s protecting her baby so lovingly.
I don’t like that photo. The lighting is horrible. Trig looks blue or purple, like he’s chocking.
I would like to see him looking at the camera. Or at least pointed at the camera.
http://thespecialparent.com/wp-content/images/trig_palin.jpg
This is a much better picture IMO.
Very cute….but part of the beauty in the photo Jill posted is because it is mother holding child. I love it.
Janet, I love it too. Her expression, the way she is holding him…
A mayor that does not trust a parent to make decisions about library books is someone that is clearly stepping over the line. There are tons of books in the library that I would love to see go, but you know, there but for the grace of God go I – there are prob. things that I like that others would object to. Such is the reasons we have Chuck Colson and Douglas Adams in the same library stacks. If a parent objects to a book, all they need do is talk about their family values around that issue with their kids. The Library is not, cannot and should not be a substitute for active and engaged parenting and parent child communication.
I knew from an early age that the works of Chuck Colson should never darken the den of my living room. Every family has their Colson, for some it is Manga\Anime, for some it is Maya Angelou, in my case, our Chuck Colson just happened to be the actual chuck colson. I guess my parents drew the line at reading the works of criminals who go on to use politics and claims of redemption to slander the name of God.