Fact-checking Factcheck.org on Gianna and Obama ads
Only 4 days ago Michelle Malkin called FactCheck.org’s output “pure garbage.”
I’m here to corroborate.
On September 24, FC posted an article supposedly fact-checking BornAliveTruth.org’s Gianna ad as well as Barack Obama’s retaliatory attack ad.
There was no excuse for Jessica Henig’s hit piece, at times deliberately deceptive and at times woefully ignorant. We know this because we provided every bit of documentation she requested and some she didn’t think to request in the days before she posted her liberal spin.
In addition, we emailed protests with the same corroboration on September 25 to FC’s editor, Brooks Jackson, and he, too, lacked the objectivity or understanding to do the right thing as requested, disable the post pending further investigation.
The title of Henig’s piece gives its bias away: “‘Born Alive’ baloney.”
I wrote Jackson that Henig’s article was wrong from the very first word, indicative of shoddy work to follow. Henig should have started with “An,” not “A,” and 3 days later it’s still wrong:
But that was nothing….
Gianna Jessen did not “say” she survived a failed abortion, verbiage indicating a mere claim has been made. Jessen’s legal birth records prove she was aborted. Henig reviewed these records, as evidenced by her email to me stating, “Actually, I feel pretty solid on the circumstances of Gianna’s birth, as they’re detailed on the website.”
If Henig were “solid,” she would have reported the nature of Gianna’s birth as factual, scanned and posted here and here.
Then, in the blink of an eye, after restating Jessen’s thesis, “if Barack Obama had his way, I wouldn’t be here,” Henig remarkably changed it: “She’s wrong. If she’d been born in Illinois, Illinois law would have protected her with or without the ‘born alive’ legislation that Obama opposed and that this group supports.”
But obviously Jessen did not say “If Illinois law had its way…..” Jessen’s statement had nothing to do with IL law. It focused squarely on Barack Obama and his strong opposition to giving legal status to abortion survivors and providing them medical care.
Did Henig read Obama’s 2001 and 2002 floor speeches from the IL Born Alive Infants Protection Act debate? Did she even view Obama’s website?
No, Henig ignored irrefutable evidence of Obama’s disregard for the postnatal personhood of abortion survivors and instead scampered off on a diversionary rabbit trail.
Had Henig factchecked the right fact, she would have found this immediate example from Obama’s own “factcheck” page about an earlier component of IL’s Born Alive Act, demonstrating he clearly does not believe abortion survivors like Jessen warrant legal or medical protection:
Given merely the above, how could Henig have determined any other than Obama believes killing abortion survivors like Jessen at birth is nothing more than 4th trimester abortions?
Nevertheless, this turtle will trudge down the rabbit trail after Henig if only to repudiate her misrepresentation of the IL Abortion Act of 1975, with a hat tip to Henig’s listed source, Planned Parenthood, which everyone but Henig knows opposed IL’s Born Alive.
My information comes from attorney Paul Linton, who represented the American Academy of Medical Ethics when 15 years ago it opposed the US District Court’s decision to enjoin much of IL’s Abortion Act of 1975.
One section of the IL Abortion Act enjoined in the 1993 Herbst v. O’Malley decision included the definitions of “born alive,” “live born,” and “live birth.”
To restate, there was no enforceable definition of “born alive” in IL law when Obama opposed IL’s Born Alive Infants Protection Act.
The IL Born Alive Act would have restored that language. By opposing Born Alive, Obama was agreeing with the Herbst decision that an infant born alive as the result of an abortion should not be protected by the IL Criminal Code.
Further, there are 2 loopholes in the IL Abortion Act.
1. The IL Abortion Act applies only to viable infants, while Born Alive applies to all live-born infants, regardless of viability. In other words, the former dealt with viability, the latter with live birth. Thus, in the case of the live birth of a child who was determined not to be viable at the time the abortion was committed, the 1975 law did not apply.
2. The one determining a baby’s viability according to the IL Abortion Act is the abortionist, and s/he is allowed to determine viability pre-birth. Rational people understand the potential for the very person trying to kill the baby pre-birth to subjectively assess the baby’s likelihood of survival post-birth.
That said, the IL Abortion Act states that in the event the abortionist determines a baby s/he is trying to kill might survive and might be viable, s/he was to call a 2nd doctor to assess the abortion survivor at birth.
And in this audio clip from Obama’s 2002 IL Senate floor debate, he argued against making that very call, stating doing so would be a “burden” to the aborting mother’s “original decision.” Hear for yourself:
Momentarily hopping off her rabbit trail, Henig added:
For the record, Obama says he would have supported “born alive” legislation in Illinois if framed in a way that did not pose a threat to abortion rights granted by the Supreme Court in its Roe v. Wade decision.
Actually, for the real record, Obama opposed identical Born Alive legislation in IL in 2003 that passed 98-0 in the U.S. Senate and for which the pro-abortion group NARAL even went neutral. Furthermore, upon its passage on August 5, 2002, and in the 6 years since, the federal Born Alive law has never been challenged in court.
Finally, after devoting 3/4 of her piece to BornAliveTruth.org’s Gianna ad to incorrectly “factcheck” points not even in the ad, Henig finally poked her nose into the Obama attack response ad only to chase off on another rabbit trail to “fact check” an attack Obama made against John McCain in his ad, who had nothing to do with the Gianna ad.
Henig then repeated Obama’s deceptive slurs against BornAliveTruth.org’s Gianna ad as “sleazy” and “vile” without noting they were actually written by journalists about a completely different ad.
Henig ignored Obama’s claim that his Born Alive votes were “taken out of context.” The obvious fact check would have been to check their context.
Another fact not checked: Obama threw the word “infanticide” into his ad, never once mentioned by the BornAliveTruth.org ad, in a sentence taken completely out of context by Born Alive’s 2003 senate sponsor.
Henig finally did note Obama misrepresented BornAliveTruth.org’s ad as being sponsored by McCain only to fittingly close her piece by running off on a 3rd rabbit trail, to say, well, McCain did it, too, and to link to that ad.
Henig must be tired. But she deserves much credit for completely undermining FactCheck.org’s stated mission, “to reduce the level of deception and confusion in U.S. politics.”
The truth can be right in front of someone’s eyes and sadly they can still have a blind heart.
Very informative post Jill – thanks.
So Henig’s not going to budge.
Some people…
Bias or incompetence or both?
Here is an interesting article for PIP and others that worship Bill Maher…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2qDlOb72yM&feature=related
Especially the last two paragraphs…
But it turns out that the late-night comic is no icon of rationality himself. In fact, he is a fervent advocate of pseudoscience. The night before his performance on Conan O’Brien, Mr. Maher told David Letterman — a quintuple bypass survivor — to stop taking the pills that his doctor had prescribed for him. He proudly stated that he didn’t accept Western medicine. On his HBO show in 2005, Mr. Maher said: “I don’t believe in vaccination. . . . Another theory that I think is flawed, that we go by the Louis Pasteur [germ] theory.” He has told CNN’s Larry King that he won’t take aspirin because he believes it is lethal and that he doesn’t even believe the Salk vaccine eradicated polio.
*
Anti-religionists such as Mr. Maher bring to mind the assertion of G.K. Chesterton’s Father Brown character that all atheists, secularists, humanists and rationalists are susceptible to superstition: “It’s the first effect of not believing in God that you lose your common sense, and can’t see things as they are.”
“She’s wrong. If she’d been born in Illinois, Illinois law would have protected her with or without the ‘born alive’ legislation that Obama opposed and that this group supports.”
All of a sudden, these people become literalists. People use a phrase like Gianna uses all the time and everyone knows what it means. Only when it can be interpreted in a way that makes it seem like the other side is lying do we assume that it was meant in a literal sense. If Cecile Richards said “It were up to me, abortion would have always been legal in the US” no one would take that in a literalist sense.
I’m sure if Gianna claimed that it rained cats and dogs, they would accuse her of being anti-science and superstitious. “Science has proven that cats and dogs can not fall from the sky. We live in a scientific age. blah blah blah.” I’m sure PETA would issue a statement about her insensitivity.
I’m glad FactCheck exposed you for the liar you are.
reality,
Can you back up your statement with ANYTHING?
It’s just so easy to call someone a liar and ignore the facts.
MK – it appears that those last two paragraphs are about Bill Maher, not Jon Stewart.
Well done, Jill. I added some case examples to illustrate.
For those of you who think the definition of “born alive” ought to be obvious, remember that an obscure definition of “death” got William Baxter Waddill off the hook even though he’d strangled a newborn in front of a pediatrician and several NICU nurses.
MK – it appears that those last two paragraphs are about Bill Maher, not Jon Stewart.
Ooops…mea culpa. I can’t stand either one of them, and often get them confused. The point is the same.
Hi MK,
not so fast! Most of the stuff in italics are precisely what I agree with … there’s an awful pile of medical ‘bull’ and vaccination is just part of the bs. Another is the too high cholesterol … try http://www.vitamincfoundation.org and believe me the list is very long!
Much of medicine as practiced today is closer to shucksterism than good science.
MK – it appears that those last two paragraphs are about Bill Maher, not Jon Stewart.
Ooops…mea culpa. I can’t stand either one of them, and often get them confused. The point is the same.
Bill Maher is a pig. Period.
I love Jon Stewart though.
Jill:
I sense your outrage and yorour frustration.
None of us should be surprised remembering this that these same people can justify and reconcile the murder of innocent children in the womb. Their minds are totally distorted and they have exchanged the truth for a lie. The MSM is in the tank for Obama either intentinally or unintententionally lying for him at every opportunity.
Yes, liars lying for a liar. Just look at what’s going on in Washington regards the bailout plan. The wolves are proposing to protect the hen house. Barney Frank is a flaming pervert homosexual who’s got the keys to our earthly kingdom. You think a guy who thinks it’s OK to have oral and anal sex with other men is going to have any tinges of regret for lying about what he did to our financial system?
Make no mistake that we know who is running things, yes, Lucifer himself, the ruler of the air. It’s amazing that so many Americans are so gullible but really not so amazing. We think to ourselves, how can anyone be pro-abortion?
It’s hard for us pro-lifers to understand how anyone can lie like this because most of us are aware that there is a God in heaven who we all will have to give account to someday. Remember this, that “wisdom begins with the fear of the Lord”. If you take God out of schools, legalize abortion, and then propose the normalization of homosexuality, what other result would you expect? We have literally raised two generations of morally bankrupt children who can so easily be decieved by a person like Barack Obama.
Remember this though, it is up to belivers to move the heart of God to heal our land, not the world.
2 Chronicles 7:14, “if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.” If MY people…….
So, every believer please memorize that verse and do what it says to do. “The fervent prayer of a rigtheous man, availseth much.” I’ll start right here.
Father, I humble myself before you acknowleging your majesty and sovereignty and seek your face, yearning to know you better and Lord, I turn from my many, many wicked ways. Lord, please hear me from heaven, frogive me, and heal the land that I, my family and fellow believers live in from the curse of abortion, free us from wicked and perverted leaders, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
Jasper:
Your qote of the day regarding the founding of NARAL, “This was the greatest mistake of my life and the greatest mistake in our nation’s history. ~ Dr. Bernard Nathanson”.
What’s really amazing is that God is so loving and forgiving that Dr. Nathanson could find Him. Now that’s a true miracle! St. Paul was a murderer too yet became one of God’s most profitable servants.
For those of you who have had abortions or support abortion. It’s not too late to change your minds and ask our wonderful and loving God for forgivenss. I urge you to do that right now for the sake of your eternal souls. Know this, God is a holy God, a consuming fire, and will not be mocked.
Unfortunately, bias errors in “fact checking” are not limited to the liberal media. Pro-life groups can be guilty too.
For example, the Illinois Family Institute lists Republican Steve Sauerberg, IL candidate for US Senate as supporting reversal of Roe v. Wade, citing their own candidate forum last January. If they had actually listened to his WHOLE response, they would have known that in fact Sauerberg said he had “qualms” about overturning Roe v. Wade because of the “divisiveness” of the issue. He had to be asked the same question twice because the first time he prattled on about how he and his wife donated dollars to crisis pregnancy centers, without answering the question. Only after the second time did he admit he didn’t want to see Roe overturned, then followed with the usual “public policy/personal belief” garbage.
IL Federation for Right to Life is hardly any better. They endorsed Sauerberg even though, in addition to his “qualms” about overturning Roe v. Wade, Sauerberg admitted in a Jeff Berkowitz interview that he could possibly approve an “avowedly pro-choice” Supreme Court Justice. And Eric Krol from the Daily Herald wrote that Sauerberg supported abortion in certain circumstances, though Sauerberg wouldn’t specify what those were. This is “pro-life”? This is worthy of endorsement? They need better fact-checkers. It’s all there for the Googling–audio recording, video clips, newspaper articles. But sometimes people just believe what they want to believe. They don’t want to see the truth because of their biases regarding the candidate or party.
The only truly pro-life candidate for US Senate in Illinois is CHAD KOPPIE, Constitution Party. Check out his website. His passion is the defense of the preborn.
Anonymous, no anonymous posts are allowed. Delete button hit.
Thanks, HisMan… :)
BTW, Jill, I gave them the benefit of the doubt in writing to them, and pointed out that many laymen don’t understand how these things play out. I used Waddill as an example of legalese trumping common sense. How can you strangle a baby, thus moving it from the NICU to the morgue, without causing its death? Waddill did, or at least his lawyers convinced a couple of jurors that strangling a baby until it stops breathing and its heart stops beating and it starts decomposing somehow isn’t the same thing as causing the baby to die.
It doesn’t help that Gianna has a California birth certificate or that she was born deacades before Obama was in office. Next time you might want to check the logic of your statements. Producers of commericals often strive to connect two unrelated things and find a correlation. Sometimes the audience finds another and calls them on it.
In other news did you hear that Rep. John LaBruzzo (R) wants to “pay poor women $1,000 to have their Fallopian tubes tied.”. Wow.
Looks like the Cleveland Plain Dealer has had enough of your lying ads, as well:
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/122250424415100.xml&coll=2
They gave it a 0 on their truthfulness scale.
Reality:
It is not difficult to find a hate article anywhere on the MSM about Jill or any other pro-lifer. So, what’s teh gotcha here? Now what would really be amazing if you found an article that wasn’t biased but just represented the truth and then you posted that. It might show that you had some integrity.
Why are you so bent on preserving the rights of a woman to murder her own child?
Why does this not abhor you?
What’s the payoff for you?
Do you not believe that someday you will stand before a Holy God?
Why are you so angry and hateful towards Jill Stanek who is trying to save innocent children in the womb and keep woman from destroying their lives and souls? Why do you see what she does as evil? Have you ever really, really thought deeply about this?
Help me understand who you are.
Factcheck.org is supported mostly by the Annenberg Public Policy Canter.
As terrorist neo-Marxists, William Ayers and wife Bernardine Dohrn, and neo-Marxist lawyer Barack Obama demonstrated with the “Chicago Annenberg Challenge,” the radical left does an excellent job of infiltrating charitable foundations.
It’s a part of their playbook. Walter Annenberg was a conservative who left a foundation behind. As with other well-financed institutions, that is like spilled sugar to ants, for the radical left. They work on taking over entire foundations, while dissembling their own intentions to more innocent foundation boards, when applying for grants.
Conservatives (people who actually believe in America and our political philosophy) need to get to that money, before criminals, communists and their manufactured messiahs.
Bobby Bambino @ 9:08 AM
Bobby – you’re right – people become absolute literalists when it suits their purposes. Even if Gianna said “If Barack Obama had his way, every abortion survivor like me would not be alive.” some would still reject her statement and witness, because they want to. I think for some, even witnessing a doctor fatally stabbing an aborted newborn infant in the chest would not move them or convict them of abortion’s ugliness.
The morally blind reject accurate objective scientific evidence that the unborn are human beings from the moment of conception on and play games with the idea of person-hood or rights when it comes to human beings deserving the right to life.
They swap absolute and relative positions when it suits themselves. They follow the inverse of the golden rule – do unto others and to me as I desire.
Obama is morally blind, self-serving and shows a similar pattern. On his campaign website he points out that he would have voted for the federal version of BAIPA, failing to mention that his statement is to be taken literally: Yet he wasn’t a US Senator at the time of legislation, so he’s truthful when he says he “would’ve” voted that way – he’s a moral illusionist.
The morally blind simply can’t see. Those such as Yo La Tango, and reality need grace and mercy, because they are under a powerful delusion.
Speaking of absolutes – I won’t argue with those who don’t use absolute, verifiable names. If people want to use false, non-verifiable names, then I’ll treat their arguments the same way – as false and unverifiable.
Chris and Bobby, we’re not being overly literal. The problem with Gianna saying what she does is not really about where she was born or when she was born, etc., but that she implies Senator Obama actually would prefer she not live. No one can seriously maintain that Obama would prefer children born alive to die. It ruins your credibility, therefore, to imply that.
Disenfranchised: (10:49) The BIG difference between those groups you mention (I share your concern) and FactCheck is that the latter’s primary job is to get the facts right. When they fail to do that their credibility has to be questioned. They posit themselves as THE place to go for the truth, and yet they got it wrong.
Whether one should throw support to Mr. Koppie is a question that has to be measured against his electability. There is never a perfect candidate, but there are candidates that are better than others. The question here is: Does Sauerberg, who is in much better position to challenge Durbin, possess the credentials to represent pro-life interests when it comes to voting on something as important as Supreme Court nominees? Would he do better than Durbin? Of course. Would Sauerberg work to undermine President McCain’s directives in a broad range of issues with regard to pro-life matters? We already know what Durbin would do.
Arlen Williams at September 27, 2008 12:21p
If fact-check is so liberal and so biased then why would Jill quote their results entries dated Aug 27, July 25 and also Feb. 19 2008, the last being an entry where she calls them “non-partisan”? It seems like you’re angry because they fact-checked someone you support rather than someone you oppose.
It seems clear that we won’t need sites like FactCheck.org to separate fact from fiction for us much longer. Obama’s Truth Squad will make sure that law enforcement and prosecutors do that for us.
http://www.kmov.com/video/index.html?nvid=285793&shu=1
I was glad to see that the latest Born Alive press release referred to Obama’s intimidation. If he pulls this stuff prior to being elected, isn’t it frightening to think what he’s capable of afterward?
Hal: No one can seriously maintain that Obama would prefer children born alive to die. It ruins your credibility, therefore, to imply that.
No need to “imply” what’s there in black and white. The thing here that stretches credulity though is the fact that you write a lot but aren’t able to read! Ah, that fantasy world of denial must be hard to maintain….perhaps THAT’S why you write so much!
Chris and Bobby, we’re not being overly literal. The problem with Gianna saying what she does is not really about where she was born or when she was born, etc., but that she implies Senator Obama actually would prefer she not live. No one can seriously maintain that Obama would prefer children born alive to die. It ruins your credibility, therefore, to imply that.
Posted by: Hal at September 27, 2008 12:40 PM
Hal, Gianna’s mother wanted her dead. If Obama wants what the mother wants, as he says he does, then he would have left Gianna to die.
reality: “I’m glad FactCheck exposed you for the liar you are.”
Did you happen to miss where Jill Stanek refuted FactCheck’s Fake Facts?
Janet, that makes no sense. Obama never said he wants “what the mother wants.” Whatever, like most of you, I am so done with discussions of Jill’s little law.
Say what you want, vote how you want, lie all you want. Can’t you just vote against Obama because he’s pro-choice, without pushing this ancient grudge every day?
You could have a video of Obama murdering someone and the MSM would still cover for him.
Well, Jasper, at least Obama and Biden are not afraid to be interviewed.
what kind of candidate for President would pick somone so over her heard for VP and still manage to say “country first?” What a sham. Disgraceful
Hal @4:44,
Now Hal, at least she never said it was above her pay grade.
Janet, that makes no sense. Obama never said he wants “what the mother wants.” Whatever, like most of you, I am so done with discussions of Jill’s little law.
Isn’t that what Obama is all about? PRO-CHOICE. Give a woman what she wants when it comes to abortion. Abortion means you want a dead baby.
I’m pretty tired of Obama too. He’s a lawyer who couldn’t comprehend loopholes in a pretty rudimentary law, or chose to ignore the loopholes hoping no one else would notice.
What’s the old saying? “Either you’re with us or you’re against us!”
Obama refused to close the loophole in the law. He allowed abortionists to use their own discretion as to whether a baby surviving the abortion would be cared for or left for dead in a soiled utility closet. Babies born alive were allowed to die as a result of loopholes in the law that Obama refused to close up. OBAMA WANTED THESE BORN-ALIVE BABIES DEAD. HE DID NOTHING TO ENSURE THEIR SAFETY. It doesn’t make sense at all – but it’s the truth.
“what kind of candidate for President would pick somone so over her heard for VP and still manage to say “country first?” What a sham. Disgraceful”
Hal,
Do interviews for left-wing biased MSM is not putting country first.
don’t you understand that the MSM will do anything to trip up Palin? They are not objective. They want Obama to win.
Obama refused to close the loophole in the law. He allowed abortionists to use their own discretion as to whether a baby surviving the abortion would be cared for or left for dead in a soiled utility closet. Babies born alive were allowed to die as a result of loopholes in the law that Obama refused to close up. OBAMA WANTED THESE BORN-ALIVE BABIES DEAD. HE DID NOTHING TO ENSURE THEIR SAFETY. It doesn’t make sense at all – but it’s the truth.
Posted by: Janet at September 27, 2008 5:07 PM
………………………….
It doesn’t make sense because it’s a load of irrational paranoia. Pretending that abortions are performed for some nefarious pleasure to be gained by anyone is a seriously insane assertion.
There never was a loophole to be closed. Viability cannot be legislated. Each premature infant must be seperately evaluated for possible and reasonable life prolonging options. Decisions best left to those capable of making knowledgable prognosis. Jill’s pissed because she was hoping to open a loophole to legal interference in decisions best left to those educated sufficiently to make them. That would not include a former part time nurse. It would be way above her pay grade.
“Say what you want, vote how you want, lie all you want.”
^–Hal explaining how he justifies his support of Obama
My God, Jill, how do you put up with these despicable trolls on here? I would have banned all of them a thousand times already. If Hal, Sally, and friends said any of the GARBAGE they post on here to me in public, I think I would end up in prison for assault. Clearly, you have the patience of a saint.
Gianna Jessen did not “say” she survived a failed abortion, verbiage indicating a mere claim has been made. Jessen’s legal birth records prove she was aborted. Henig reviewed these records, as evidenced by her email to me stating, “Actually, I feel pretty solid on the circumstances of Gianna’s birth, as they’re detailed on the website.”
If Henig were “solid,” she would have reported the nature of Gianna’s birth as factual, scanned and posted here and here.
…………………………..
First of all, an abortion is a termination of a pregnancy. If a termination fails, the pregnancy continues. Pretty simple really. The truthful verbiage would be born during or due to an abortion.
Second, the supposed birth record may or may not be an actual medical record. Impossible to say without any method of verification. There are no signatures, date of document creation, document numerical asignation, chain of custody documentation etc. That this document was not created at birth is evidenced by the notation of weight several months later. Hardly compelling evidence.
Even if this medical record belongs to Gianna, it says that the birth was due to an abortion. Clearly her use of ‘failed abortion’ is an attempt to insinuate that the intention of the abortion was her death. This, rather than factual, is the pathetic appeal pointed out by factcheck.
Third, a copy of an adoptive parent’s version of a birth certificate with the name of a Obstetrician that happens to perform abortions as well as uninduced deliveries is proof of nothing. Preemies are delivered every day.
Each premature infant must be seperately evaluated for possible and reasonable life prolonging options. Decisions best left to those capable of making knowledgable prognosis.
An abortionist is paid to kill, not to make prognoses on live babies. Therein lies the problem.
If you want to believe that abortionists are altruistic angels, go right ahead.
Sally, why so cynical? Given the atypical result of the procedure, who’s to say what is correct or incorrect verbiage?
Do you think 32 years ago these parties conspired to try to trick you today?
Janet at September 27, 2008 3:53 PM: “Hal, Gianna’s mother wanted her dead.”
Have you talked to Gianna’s mom about this? Is this her words or your sentiments about her choice that results in you putting words into her mouth.
re: Obama Truth Sqaud – Posted by: Fed Up With Obama at September 27, 2008 3:18 PM
Obama Truth Squad? Lol. He doesn’t need them. He has facts, plans and logical ideas, not to mention innovative supporters who will help to steward new ideas to fruition rather than relying on stale anechdotes from 30 years ago. Not to metion that Obama’s V.P. nominee can form coherent sentences!
McCain has a truth sqaud, but they’re still waiting for the truth given all the lies that Palin and McCain have been spewing.
Each premature infant must be seperately evaluated for possible and reasonable life prolonging options. Decisions best left to those capable of making knowledgable prognosis.
An abortionist is paid to kill, not to make prognoses on live babies. Therein lies the problem.
If you want to believe that abortionists are altruistic angels, go right ahead.
Posted by: Janet at September 27, 2008 6:43 PM
…………………………..
A doctor is paid to care for his/her patient. In this particular instance, we would be talking about a late term abortion performed in a hospital for unknown medical reasons. Rather than being paid to kill his/her patient, the woman, the doctor would be performing this abortion to ensure the life and health of the woman patient.
In the event of a fetus being born with life potential, the appropriate specialists in consultation with the parent/s would be the appropriate persons to make any medical decisions. The reasonability of any possible intervention would depend on each individual case. I suppose this is more difficult to understand than some paranoid infanticide conspiracy theory.
If you feel a need to validate witch hunts, don’t be surprised if you are viewed as a bit loony.
Hal @ 12:40 PM
Hal – I’ve done the research and read the documents. I’ve seriously tried to consider where Obama was coming from when he made those votes and statements. I can even understand the idea that a doctor may be aborting a “pregnancy” and should a baby emerge and still be alive – then he would in good conscience do the right thing. (I’m not for that – I’m saying I could see that as a possibility) Jill’s article today was actually very informative and there needs to be a more thorough, simplified summary of the whole issue.
The well documented evidence Jill has provided against Obama is both rational and overwhelming, leaving me beyond a reasonable doubt as to Obama’s stance on this issue.
I’ve come to the conclusion that to Barack Obama, abortion doesn’t mean termination of a pregnancy – but the termination of a life that is that pregnancy, regardless of how or when. His continuation of lying about his vote regarding passage of the IL BAIPA when amended was known and intentional. By this behavior he clearly understands many people do not accept his idea of abortion.
Even today, the basis and language of his arguments have to do with threats to Roe, original decisions, burdens and the completion of the procedure as intended.
Do I really think that if Obama were in a room when an induced labor abortion is performed and a baby is born alive he would say “kill it” to the abortionist? No, I don’t.
I think his answer would be – “What’s the original decision?, and is the baby viable? – Let’s let the ‘doctor’ (abortionist) make the assessment.”
I think that’s fair and accurate to say that’s what Obama would say – but it’s absolutely clear that a dead baby is the intent whether inside the woman or outside her. How can it be any other way?
In light of BAIPA, both state and federal level, this has been taken out of Obama’s hands, but FOCA would eliminate BAIPA.
Gianna’s question – “Where were my rights?” when she was born alive is an essential one – even in consideration of the 14th Amendment:
Given this – BAIPA shouldn’t even have been necessary, but notice the escape portion – due process of law, and equal protection.
As a constitutional lawyer, Obama argued that being born as a means of “abortion” is valid law. That kind of argument is like saying your idea of charitable giving to the poor means putting a 9mm bullet right between their eyes.
When it comes to life/death issues there is no middle ground.
I’ve respected you as a person. Now please, start respecting yourself, and stop defending the indefensible.
My God, Jill, how do you put up with these despicable trolls on here? I would have banned all of them a thousand times already. If Hal, Sally, and friends said any of the GARBAGE they post on here to me in public, I think I would end up in prison for assault. Clearly, you have the patience of a saint.
Posted by: John Lewandowski at September 27, 2008 6:31 PM
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Anger management issues John?
Sally, I’d say what I’d like to say to you, but it would certainly get deleted. So use your imagination.
“Clearly her use of ‘failed abortion’ is an attempt to insinuate that the intention of the abortion was her death.”
Sally,
You’re hillarious, you should try stand up comedy.
Sally, I’d say what I’d like to say to you, but it would certainly get deleted. So use your imagination.
Posted by: John Lewandowski at September 27, 2008 7:34 PM
………………..
I imagine a wizened old man with wild tufts of hair and Charles Manson eyes spewing spittle while screaming threats of damnation and hell fire at passers by. Then the men in white coats come…….Don’t bust a artery John.
I think his answer would be – “What’s the original decision?, and is the baby viable? – Let’s let the ‘doctor’ (abortionist) make the assessment.”
I think that’s fair and accurate to say that’s what Obama would say – but it’s absolutely clear that a dead baby is the intent whether inside the woman or outside her. How can it be any other way?
……………………………………
The intent of an abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. That’s it. When discussing a rare late term abortion involving a fetus of possible viability, you are doing nothing but fantasizing if you think that the woman and her doctors will not do everything reasonably possible to prevent the death of a resultant infant.
I suggest that you examine the Illinois Medical Association’s reasons for opposing Jill’s pet legislation. Don’t tell me that they are part of your infanticide conspiracy.
Sally @ 7:44 PM
“Don’t bust a artery John.”
“A anti-abortion group…”
Similarities in lack of English grammar, combined with non-sensical rabbit trails and spurious conclusions…hmmm.
I wonder – is Sally actually Jessica Henig? ;-)
Sally, why so cynical? Given the atypical result of the procedure, who’s to say what is correct or incorrect verbiage?
Do you think 32 years ago these parties conspired to try to trick you today?
Posted by: Janet at September 27, 2008 6:50 PM
……………………….
Given that Gianna does not have access to her birth mother’s medical records, any verbiage describing the events of her birth are conjecture on her part. That she chooses a pity me emotional scenario in loo of facts doesn’t speak well of her intentions in doing so.
How about that burning in saline for 18 hours Janet? Where are the burn scars? Why don’t her ‘medical records’ mention burns? Something just tossed in for pathetic appeal?
If fact-check is so liberal and so biased then why would Jill quote their results entries dated Aug 27, July 25 and also Feb. 19 2008, the last being an entry where she calls them “non-partisan”? ….
Posted by: Yo La Tango at September 27, 2008 2:44 PM
As with our many other left-slanted media outlets, not each and everyone there is liberal-to-radical. The neo-Marxist left practices incrementalism, person by person, step by step, dollar by dollar.
Jessica Henig got this assignment at someone else’s authority.
Sally,
To clarify your post of 7:18, The following statement attributed to me were your words and should have been in italics or quotes:
Each premature infant must be seperately evaluated for possible and reasonable life prolonging options. Decisions best left to those capable of making knowledgable prognosis.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
In the event of a fetus being born with life potential, the appropriate specialists in consultation with the parent/s would be the appropriate persons to make any medical decisions. The reasonability of any possible intervention would depend on each individual case.
Do you agree that the appropriate specialist(s) should be someone other than the abortionist himself?
I believe that if the health of the mother were in extreme danger and the baby’s vital signs were good, there would be no need to induce an abortion, if this is what you are implying. Why not do a c-section if a vaginal delivery is not possible when the baby is still alive?
Perhaps a MEDICAL DOCTOR could site an instance – a real medical case – where a baby in its 3rd trimester must be killed intentionally by abortion to save the mother’s life.
Sally,
How about that burning in saline for 18 hours Janet? Where are the burn scars? Why don’t her ‘medical records’ mention burns? Something just tossed in for pathetic appeal?
I have not heard about any saline effects on Gianna. Perhaps, by the grace of God, there were none. I’ll see what I can find out on the internet.
Gianna Jessen describes a young child, Sarah, who survived a saline abortion as she did in her testimony before the Constitution Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee on April 22, 1996.
I have met other survivors of abortion. They are all thankful for life. Only a few months ago I met another saline abortion survivor. Her name is Sarah. She is two years old. Sarah also has cerebral palsy, but her diagnosis is not good. She is blind and has severe seizures. The abortionist, besides injecting the mother with saline, also injects the baby victims. Sarah was injected in the head. I saw the place on her head where this was done. When I speak, I speak not only for myself, but for the other survivors, like Sarah, and also for those who cannot yet speak …
For the full text, see:
http://www.pregnantpause.org/abort/jessen.htm
It would seem that Sally has quite a bit of trouble with the English language, especially considering that I asked her to imagine what kind of interesting profanity I would direct toward her if it wasn’t against the rules and she decided to look in a mirror and describe herself. Odd, indeed.
don’t you understand that the MSM will do anything to trip up Palin? They are not objective. They want Obama to win.
Posted by: Jasper at September 27, 2008 6:03 PM
All patriotic Americans want Obama to win.
I suggest that you examine the Illinois Medical Association’s reasons for opposing Jill’s pet legislation. Don’t tell me that they are part of your infanticide conspiracy.
Posted by: Sally at September 27, 2008 8:02 PM
The Illinois State Medical Society has been in the tank with abortionists and Planned Parenthood for decades. Those in the know gives them zero credit for objectivity on anything having to do with abortion.
SALLY,
From Val’s website “2 Seconds Faster”
One question I keep hearing is “Why does it matter, there aren’t that many late term abortions anyway”. And this got me thinking – how many late term abortions are there?
*
Since reporting abortions statistics isn’t mandated by federal law we are stuck with the states doing the right thing, which doesn’t happen very often. Out of 52 reporting area’s (all states + DC and NYC) only 44 area’s reported gestational age. However the numbers are amazing. Unless otherwise specified these statistics are from 2004 which is the most recent year from the CDC. (Since some states change their statistics after the initial reporting, the CDC waits a couple years before compiling all information.)
*
16 – 20 weeks gestational age – 24,837 abortions
>20 weeks gestation – 8,365
*
Total abortion performed after week 15 – 33,202
Hmmmmm…doesn’t quite jibe with the When discussing a rare late term abortion involving a fetus of possible viability, you are doing nothing but fantasizing if you think that the woman and her doctors will not do everything reasonably possible to prevent the death of a resultant infant.
Maybe you need to define “RARE” for us Sally…
SALLY,
In 2007:
*
According to the abortionist themselves there were 168 abortions performed on viable babies.
*
Some of states performing abortions over 20 weeks gestation (from CDC):
*
Georgia – 1,053
Kansas – 584
New Jersey – 872
New York – 2,459
Ohio – 535
Washington – 517
*
In 2005 Alabama performed:
*
26 abortions on fetus at 23 weeks gestation
12 abortion of fetus at 24 weeks gestation
*
7 abortions of fetus at 25 weeks gestation
7 abortions of fetus at 26+ weeks gestation
*
Ohio performed 314 Partial Birth Abortions in 2006.
FROM THE AMA (FAIR ENOUGH SOURCE FOR YA?)
(T)he AMA recommends that abortions not be performed in the third trimester except in cases of serious fetal anomalies incompatible with life. Although third-trimester abortions can be performed to preserve the life or health of the mother, they are, in fact, generally not necessary for those purposes. Except in extraordinary circumstances, maternal health factors which demand termination of the pregnancy can be accommodated without sacrifice of the fetus, and the near certainty of the independent viability of the fetus argues for ending the pregnancy by appropriate delivery.
*
The demand for abortions, with the exception of those indicated by serious fetal anomalies or conditions which threaten the life or health of the pregnant woman, represent failures in the social environment, education, and contraceptive methods.
http://www.2secondsfaster.com/
Arlen @ 6:01,
The Illinois State Medical Society has been in the tank with abortionists and Planned Parenthood for decades. Those in the know gives them zero credit for objectivity on anything having to do with abortion.
Thanks, Arlen. I didn’t know they existed until Obama mentioned the name. Now I know why.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
mk,
Except in extraordinary circumstances, maternal health factors which demand termination of the pregnancy can be accommodated without sacrifice of the fetus, and the near certainty of the independent viability of the fetus argues for ending the pregnancy by appropriate delivery.
There you go! Thank you for this enlightening information from the AMA!
All patriotic Americans want Obama to win.
Posted by: hal at September 27, 2008 11:44 PM
Can you say in which part of the country you live, if it’s not too personal? N,S,E,W? How do you define “patriotic”?
how many late term abortions are there?
Roughly 1000 per year after 24 weeks and 500 – 600 after 26 weeks.
Hal: No one can seriously maintain that Obama would prefer children born alive to die. It ruins your credibility, therefore, to imply that.
No doubt. Some people know that Obama is Pro-Choice, so they then try to demonize him like that.
Doug @3:13,
Hal: “No one can seriously maintain that Obama would prefer children born alive to die. It ruins your credibility, therefore, to imply that.”
No doubt. Some people know that Obama is Pro-Choice, so they then try to demonize him like that.
EVERYONE knows OBAMA is PRO-CHOICE. I won’t say he’s a demon (many people will), but you must know the facts by now. No one can seriously maintain that OBAMA has any respect for the unborn IF THEY UNDERSTAND HIS VOTING RECORD. Have you read the column on the right on Jill’s blog lately?
“Barack Obama’s radical positions on abortion”
*Barack Obama opposed legislation as IL state senator to protect abortion survivors from being shelved to die:
» Links to Obama’s votes on IL’s Born Alive Infant Protection Act
» Obama’s 10 reasons for supporting infanticide
» Why Jesus would not vote for Obama
» Audio of Obama arguing against giving medical care to abortion survivors
*Barack Obama thinks partial birth abortion is a “legitimate medical procedure”:
» Michelle Obama’s partial birth abortion fundraising letter
*Barack Obama opposes parental notification of minor girls before they abort:
» Media Matters corroboration
*Barack Obama has stated “the first thing I’d do as president“ would be to sign the Freedom of Choice Act, which would overturn every local, state, and federal abortion law passed in the past 35 years:
» Video of Obama promising FOCA to Planned Parenthood
(Go to column on upper right corner of this page for links to further information.)
https://www.jillstanek.com/
Doug,
To save you time, no response required. I pretty much know how you’ll respond.
Doug –
“Roughly 1000 per year after 24 weeks and 500 – 600 after 26 weeks.”
Where did you get those numbers? I’ve only been able to find 2 states that list gestational age above 20 weeks. And only one state that will list if viable or not.
I’ve been searching for more in depth statistics.
Doug,
Roughly 1000 per year after 24 weeks and 500 – 600 after 26 weeks.
That’s ONE THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED a year. For 30 years. That’s minimum FOURTY EIGHT THOUSAND…
Not all states report. Many, many don’t.
1600 a year
48,000 since roe v wade.
Couple that with:
Except in extraordinary circumstances, maternal health factors which demand termination of the pregnancy can be accommodated without sacrifice of the fetus, and the near certainty of the independent viability of the fetus argues for ending the pregnancy by appropriate delivery
Now I wouldn’t call that rare. 48,000 viable babies killed.
If I told you that 48,000 kindergartners were killed in the last 30 years because we have a law that says it’s okay to kill previable fetuses, wouldn’t you want that law changed?????
Doug,
I highly doubt those numbers…
GEORGE TILLER ALONE PERFORMS OVER 600 A YEAR!
“[Dr. George Tiller] presented the results of a study involving 2750 women aged between 10 and 45 who underwent abortions between 1994-97. The average gestational age was 27 weeks. The vast majority-2051-were performed because of either maternal health problems, with the remaining 699 abortions performed because of foetal abnormality.” (Julie Ann Davies, “Abortionist Backs Sex Selection”, The Age: 15 Nov 1999, Internet Edition)
*
Fetal abnormality, as it is used in this context, can include things like down’s syndrome, hydrocephalus, cystic fibrosis, and other disabilities that are problematic, but not incompatible with meaningful life. Still, 3 out of 4 of the babies that were evaluated in the study were not abnormal.
This statistic is further confirmed in the Executive Summary for Fetal Indication Termination contained on Tiller’s website. He claims that from January of 1989 to May of 2001 he aborted roughly 2,009 post-15 week fetuses for reasons of fetal abnormality. This means that, on average, only 167 of the post 15-week fetuses that he aborted each year were abnormalthe data he provided to the state of Kansas indicates (with links below), he aborts roughly 600 post 22-week fetuses each year
http://www.abortiontv.com/Methods/GeorgeTiller.htm
I’m a patriotic American and I Prefer to vote so every American has the right to LIFE in the future, regardless of the circumstances of their **conception** or birth.
I’m still trying to find the word “ABORTION” in the Constitution. Maybe the men who found the word, had a time machine, traveled back to when the constitution was drafted and inserted the word ABORTION in, perhaps written in INVISIBLE INK? Of course, they would have had to do this when do one was watching.
Just like there’s a treasure map on the back of the Declaration of Independence. *ROLLS EYES*
Oh — my priest today during his sermon said he couldn’t endorse anyone, but said voting for someone who is pro abortion when you have ANOTHER CHOICE is a grave matter. And Obama has no intention of REDUCING abortions.
Its too bad we bicker a lot — if we worked together to get to the bottom of the reasons (not the ‘used for birth control’ reasons) women have abortions, we could reduce the #s o the single digits a year, and not have 3000 a DAY/1,000,000 + a year.
For example, Financial: I would provide job training and life skills to help women get better jobs. I would also make laws where Employers can’t discriminate against PREGNANT women. Reduced cost for day care, things like that.
But PP doesn’t want Pro Lifers helping these women, because the more women we HELP, the more $ they LOSE from not doing abortions.
“Roughly 1000 per year after 24 weeks and 500 – 600 after 26 weeks.”
Where did you get those numbers?
Valerie, the CDC, JAMA, and Guttmacher.
“Roughly 1000 per year after 24 weeks and 500 – 600 after 26 weeks.”
That’s ONE THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED a year. For 30 years. That’s minimum FOURTY EIGHT THOUSAND…
I sentence you to two days’ probation, MK, during which Bobby “The Brain” Bambino will attempt to pound some math into you.
The 500-600 is contained within the 1000. Right about a thousand per year after viability, and 500-600 after 26 weeks; naturally less as we go later in gestation.
I remember .08% for abortions after 24 weeks, and it’s not dependent on states reporting. We’re agreed that there are arouund 1,200,000 abortions per year, right?
….
Except in extraordinary circumstances, maternal health factors which demand termination of the pregnancy can be accommodated without sacrifice of the fetus, and the near certainty of the independent viability of the fetus argues for ending the pregnancy by appropriate delivery
There are things like anancephaly, where though you are against an abortion, most people by far are going to say it’s okay.
I agree that maternal conditions that argue for abortion are quite rare. The ones I’ve seen involve the woman having heart disease, high blood pressure, gestational diabetes, etc., and sometimes the position of the baby makes a difference too.
I wonder, though – let’s say the problem is anancephaly. I don’t know how long it takes to induce labor and birth, so perhaps it’d be acceptable to the woman versus aborting.
……
GEORGE TILLER ALONE PERFORMS OVER 600 A YEAR!
That’s not abortions after 24 weeks or after 26 weeks.
If I told you that 48,000 kindergartners were killed in the last 30 years because we have a law that says it’s okay to kill previable fetuses, wouldn’t you want that law changed?
MK, yes – I don’t see good enough reasons for killing Kindergartners, there. The law needs to exclude Kindergartners, IMO.
Liz: I’m still trying to find the word “ABORTION” in the Constitution. Maybe the men who found the word, had a time machine, traveled back to when the constitution was drafted and inserted the word ABORTION in, perhaps written in INVISIBLE INK? Of course, they would have had to do this when do one was watching.
Abortion was legal before the Constitution was written, just as it is now.
The Founding Fathers knew this, and abortion was legal when the Constitution was written, and when it was adopted, and for quite a few years afterward.
No, they didn’t say anything about abortion in the Constitution, nor did they say anything about vast multitudes of things that people did, were permitted to do, etc.
Right from the 9th Amendment, as a matter of fact:
“The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed
to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”
Abortion was legal before the Constitution was written, just as it is now.
The Founding Fathers knew this….
Can you find a quote by one of the Founding Fathers who said that all women had a right to an abortion?
Doug @ 6:09,
Right from the 9th Amendment, as a matter of fact:
“The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”
I’m not a lawyer, but I don’t believe this amendment was written to give carte blanche to the people to do whatever they choose.
I seriously doubt the founding fathers would have put ABORTION into the constitution.
It took an amendment to BAN SLAVERY, which was a horrible time in America where BLACKS were treated as property.
Now we have a worse time in America where the unborn are considered NON PERSONS as well.
We have truly failed what the founders fought and died for.
Thomas Jefferson was the 3rd of **8** children. Just think if Planned Parenthood had existed or this country was China, we would have been denied a statesman, an inventor and a great man.
Doug –
“Valerie, the CDC, JAMA, and Guttmacher.”
Try again.
The CDC does not go over 21 weeks gestation in its reporting in their abortion survellience reports nor any other report. This is because not all states give gestational ages over 21 weeks. (some states don’t even give gestational age.)
The Guttmatcher institute only goes by CDC numbers and then does sampling and estimates through periodic (about every 4 years) surveys to obtain their numbers. Plus they only get their numbers by sending out these surveys to known abortion clinics. Any number between 21 and 24 weeks gestation is done using statistics and not actual numbers and they group anything after 24 weeks together.
JAMA is a peer reviewed medical journal that does not do its own studies, but reports on them. They do not do any fact finding themselves, as they get their information from places like the CDC and Guttmatcher. Their studies are medically based (I.E. does abortion cause more spontaneous miscarriages) through medical research – not paperwork and mathematical statistics.
So, I’ll ask again, Where did you get those numbers?
Doug,
“[Dr. George Tiller] presented the results of a study involving 2750 women aged between 10 and 45 who underwent abortions between 1994-97. The average gestational age was 27 weeks. The vast majority-2051-were performed because of either maternal health problems, with the remaining 699 abortions performed because of foetal abnormality.” (Julie Ann Davies, “Abortionist Backs Sex Selection”, The Age: 15 Nov 1999, Internet Edition)
Woops – tired.
I contradicted myself.
JAMA doesn’t fund the studies that they report on. (I said doesn’t “do” their own studies) Their reporting is on the findings of outside research.
Doug,
he aborts roughly 600 post 22-week fetuses each
MANY, MANY, MANY babies make it that are born at 22 weeks. Granted the odds are lower, but they do make it. And you’d have no way of knowing which ones would or which ones wouldn’t, but since they MIGHT, you should err on that side.
What is the difference between a viable 24 week old fetus and a kindergartner?
Okay I did some checking and I found this:
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2008/09/23/TrendsWomenAbortions-wTables.pdf
First I’ll copy and paste how the Guttmacher Institute got their numbers for abortions over 21 weeks gestation. Get your Dramamine:
The CDC compilation lacks information on the characteristics of many abortion patients either because the abortion was not reported to the state health department or the report did not include information on a particular characteristic. For this reason, we assume that the distribution of characteristics among patients whose abortions are not reported is similar to the distribution among those whose abortions are reported. Therefore, we apply these distributions to the total counts of abortions derived from the Guttmacher abortion provider surveys. Because the CDC total counts of abortion are lower than the Guttmacher counts, and because characteristics data are not obtained for a significant portion of patients whose abortions are counted by the CDC, the
distributions of characteristics are based on anywhere from one-third to two-thirds of the total actual number of abortions.
oopss….that was just how they get there numbers in total…now for how they get their numbers for over 20 weeks gestation:
The CDC’s abortion surveillance reports group all abortions carried out at more than 20 weeks’ gestation, although many states obtain more detailed information on their abortion reporting forms. We estimated the number of abortions past 20 weeks from the CDC abortion surveillance
report for 2001 and the Guttmacher estimate of the total number of abortions in 2001. We obtained individual reports for 277,334 abortions performed in 2001 in 15 states and New York City. We then tabulated the individual
reports to distribute the abortions beyond 20 weeks’ gestation to three groupings: 21–22 weeks, 23–24 weeks and more than 24 weeks.
Dizzy yet? Out of 1.2 million they only obtained 277,334 and do not tell us which of the 15 states they used. They then go on in an attmept to explain how their number are probably higher than reality – even though they only used 16 out of 52 reporting area’s to make their estimates. Good Grief.
Anyway…..from that report:
21 – 22 weeks gestation = 8,800 abortions
23 – 24 weeks gestation = 7,200 abortions
>24 weeks gestation = 2,400
So, that would be –
200 abortions on viable babies a month
46 abortions on viable babies a week
and 6-7 abortions on viable babies a day.
Now, the AMA says that there isn’t any reason why the life of a baby should be sacrificed past viability, so this isn’t for the woman’s health.
How many people here think this many babies have life threatening diseases or deformities that would allow them not to survive anyway?
If I get a chance, I’ll check that number as well….
Thomas Jefferson was the 3rd of **8** children. Just think if Planned Parenthood had existed or this country was China, we would have been denied a statesman, an inventor and a great man.
Posted by: LizFromNebraska at September 28, 2008 7:56 PM
You don’t think his parents wanted three children?
why?
No, that’s not my point, Hal. My point is the hatred against LARGE families that some people have in our current time. If there was a forced two child policy back before he was born, He wouldn’t have been **allowed** to be born, since he was the third child of the family.
I’m the oldest of six. I would not be the person I am if only two of us were born. I hate to even imagine what it might have been like.
“Valerie, the CDC, JAMA, and Guttmacher.”
Try again.
Valerie, no, that’s where I’ve read about it. If JAMA gets statistics from “outside,” or doesn’t fund stuides, okay. I also know that the CDC uses Guttmacher information for some things.
This has come up over the years, and I’ve never seen any decent sources of information outside of those three on the topic. Guttmacher said .08% of abortions after 24 weeks at least ten years ago, and I’ve never seen anything decent to contradict that in the intervening time.
I did some of my own math based on the Guttmacher formula.
According to the Guttmacher institute 8% of abortion providers do abortions at 24+ weeks gestation. The same Guttmacher report states there are 1,787 (2005) abortion clinics. This means there are 143 clinics that offer abortions at 24+ weeks.
Kansas is the only state that I can find that details if a baby is viable or not (viability is based on the abortionists opinion.) I can only find one late term abortionist listed in Kansas and that is Dr. Tiller.
Between 2000 – 2007 Kansas averaged 298 abortions on viable babies. Now, Dr. Tiller is very well known nationally so I will assume he does more abortions on viable babies than most clinics. Lets say most abortionists do 100 abortions on viable babies a year. 100 abortions multiply by 143 abortion clinics would be 14,300 viable babies dead. Maybe Dr. Tiller is just really gifted in his abilities to terminate life so let’s say the average clinic only does 50 abortions on viable babies a year. That would be 7,150 abortions on viable babies. Good Grief – exactly how gifted is Dr. Tiller? Lets say the average late term abortionist only does 25 abortions on viable babies a year. That would be 3,575 abortions on viable babies. Well, we are still not at the Guttmacher number of 2,400 – so exactly what is going on in Kansas? Let’s lower it to 25 viable abortions – that would be 2,860 abortions. Still not at the 2,400 mark.
Now I know that some clinics offer late term abortions past viability but don’t do that many. and there are clinics like Dr. Tiller’s that does more than their fair share. Do we really think Tiller (Kansas) is more than 91% above the national average in post viable abortions?
Can you find a quote by one of the Founding Fathers who said that all women had a right to an abortion?
Maybe, Janet, but that could be a lot of work.
Under English common law, women had the right to abortions to quickening, and the Founding Fathers were for people keeping the liberties they had, as well as for granting them a few more than had been the case in Europe.
…..
“The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”
I’m not a lawyer, but I don’t believe this amendment was written to give carte blanche to the people to do whatever they choose.
Of course not. There were things proscribed before, during, and after the writing of the Constitution. Abortion was not one of them.
MK: he aborts roughly 600 post 22-week fetuses each
MANY, MANY, MANY babies make it that are born at 22 weeks. Granted the odds are lower, but they do make it. And you’d have no way of knowing which ones would or which ones wouldn’t, but since they MIGHT, you should err on that side.
MK, what I see for 21 weeks+ is 1.4% of all abortions. The odds are less than 50/50 at 22 weeks but yes some babies do live when born then.
Obviously, the number of abortions declines drastically as we go later in gestation. 22 weeks is not long before the state restrictions kick in, so it stands to reason that there would be many more then, versus a few weeks later, for example.
…..
What is the difference between a viable 24 week old fetus and a kindergartner?
Being inside the body of a person is one big difference. That said, I’m okay with restrictions on abortion at 24 weeks.
Doug –
I have been doing research and obtaining information from the CDC and Guttmacher (from internet and snail mail requests for reports), along with Planned Parenthood and organizations like NARAL for over 2 years now.
In the Guttmacher report I linked to said that 0.2% of abortions are on viable fetus and that was from stats from 1974 – 2004. Now, I know that the Guttmacher institute has problems contradicting itself, and that makes things a bit tricky. They also put out mulitple reports from one research. What I have discovered is in the reports that spell out how they get their data, those are the ones that seem to be accurate.
I’m not telling you this to be a smart behind – I’m telling you because you are a very smart person and I know you like to have accurate info. I was very confused when I first started researching all this because of how many contradictions one report can have! It takes time and patience to figure it all out.
If you want more info on this – from reliable sources – I can e-mail you the links that I have. Of course, you will want to tell me what limits you have – I have data going back to the late ’60’s!
;-)
>24 weeks gestation = 2,400
Val, we aren’t that far apart, there, to start with. Not orders of magnitude away, anyway.
“Among the 15 states that provided individual abortion data were two of the three states with nationally known providers of late abortions, so our tabulations may overestimate the proportion of pregnancies terminated after 24 weeks in the country as a whole.”
That is certainly consistent with them finding lower numbers in the past.
That was a pretty good report, overall, though, and I’m glad to see it – the last one I saw was in 2005.
Anyway, now I have seen something decent that contradicts the earlier .08% figure for 24 weeks+. We just need to figure out how much the numbers are affected by the inclusion of the two states. I’m thinking Kansas and Colorado – don’t know which would be the third one.
2750 women aged between 10 and 45 who underwent abortions between 1994-97. The average gestational age was 27 weeks.
MK, I wish it said “median.”
Four at 25 weeks and one at 35 weeks gives us an average of 27, so we don’t know from that how many abortions were past 26 weeks or 24 weeks.
If we just guess and say that half were thus 26 weeks+, then that’d be about 340 women per year, entirely consistent with the 500-600 figure.
In the Guttmacher report I linked to said that 0.2% of abortions are on viable fetus and that was from stats from 1974 – 2004. Now, I know that the Guttmacher institute has problems contradicting itself, and that makes things a bit tricky. They also put out mulitple reports from one research. What I have discovered is in the reports that spell out how they get their data, those are the ones that seem to be accurate.
Val, it says “fewer than 0.2% take place after 24 weeks” – right on the first page.
And as they said, they included two states that are to be expected to have inflated numbers. Had they excluded the “high” states then we’d see drastically reduced figures.
How many abortions past 24 weeks has Dr. Tiller done, alone? Or Dr. Hern? The right way to do the math would be to subtract their numbers, and those of any other vastly-higher-than average person, then project from the 15 states to 50, then add the “high” docs’ numbers back in.
Between 2000 – 2007 Kansas averaged 298 abortions on viable babies.
As an example of how the math would change, if we begin with 2400 abortions per year at 24 weeks+, that would be 2102 among the other 49 states.
Guttmacher used data from 15 states, and if Kansas was one of them, then the other 14 would be averaging 30 such abortions per year.
It would work out as 14 x 30 = 420, then 420 + 298 for Kansas = 718, then projecting from 15 states to 50 as follows: 718 x 50 / 15 = 2393 (very close to the 2400).
Without Kansas in there, and using only the other 14 states, it would be:
14 x 30 = 420. then projecting from 14 states to 50:
420 x 50 /14 = 1500, quite different from 2400. Adding Kansas back in would give us 1768.
Taking out two Kansas’s (as Guttmacher says they had two of the three states with “famous” providers of late abortions) would change the numbers to 470 or 1046 with the two added back in.
1046 would be .087% (of a total of 1,200,000 abortions per year) close to Guttmacher’s original .08% figure.
“Being inside the body of a person is one big difference. That said, I’m okay with restrictions on abortion at 24 weeks.”
Whew! That’s a load off my mind, Doug. For a while I thought that you’re in favor of the “right” to kill all preborn children, regardless of age.
I, for one, am glad that you just might be okay with saving the lives of those at 24 weeks.
Very glad.
Matt – have to laugh – and I appreciate the tone of your post.
If viable, a baby could be delivered and thus the woman’s desire for the pregnancy could be satisfied, no killing required.
Doug,
Under English common law, women had the right to abortions to quickening, and the Founding Fathers were for people keeping the liberties they had, as well as for granting them a few more than had been the case in Europe.
Since the Protestant Reformation occurred about 1546, I would assume that their laws coincided with those of the Catholic Church since England was a Catholic country. The Catholic Church has always been against abortion so I am sure the same held for England.
A recent letter from the USCCB confirms this.
Bishops Respond to House Speaker Pelosi’s Misrepresentation of Church Teaching Against Abortion
WASHINGTON–Cardinal Justin F. Rigali, chairman of the U.S. Bishops’ Committee on Pro-Life Activities, and Bishop William E. Lori, chairman of the U.S. Bishops’ Committee on Doctrine, have issued the following statement:
In the course of a “Meet the Press” interview on abortion and other public issues on August 24, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi misrepresented the history and nature of the authentic teaching of the Catholic Church against abortion.
In fact, the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches, “Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law.” (No. 2271)
In the Middle Ages, uninformed and inadequate theories about embryology led some theologians to speculate that specifically human life capable of receiving an immortal soul may not exist until a few weeks into pregnancy. While in canon law these theories led to a distinction in penalties between very early and later abortions, the Church’s moral teaching never justified or permitted abortion at any stage of development.
These mistaken biological theories became obsolete over 150 years ago when scientists discovered that a new human individual comes into being from the union of sperm and egg at fertilization. In keeping with this modern understanding, the Church teaches that from the time of conception (fertilization), each member of the human species must be given the full respect due to a human person, beginning with respect for the fundamental right to life.
It’s early…. to clarify the above:
A recent letter from the USCCB confirms this.
“this” being the Church’s position on abortion throughout history
(not my personal opinion).
Since the Protestant Reformation occurred about 1546, I would assume that their laws coincided with those of the Catholic Church since England was a Catholic country. The Catholic Church has always been against abortion so I am sure the same held for England.
Janet – ?? In the 1700’s, anyway, it was legal to “quickening” in England and the Colonies/the US.
Doug,
Sorry to confuse you. I forgot I was talking to Doug who doesn’t believe in God, much less take the Catholic Church’s opinion as valid (no offense). Since that letter from the USCCB was the basis of my refuting your argument for the legality of abortion today, never mind. Sorry!
Doug –
Please notice that the Guttmacher Institute does not provide the names of the states that they got there data from. One year Wyoming’s abortions numbers got thrown out by the CDC because they listed that there was only 7 abortions that year – it was too low to include. Did they use Wyoming? We don’t know.
This is why the Guttmacher Institute only does hack jobs. They get all their information in a scientific way but do not provide all the information to the public. And their conclusions include the opinion of the authors.
“This report was developed as part of the “Expanding Access Through Evidence” project of the Guttmacher Institute, with funding from the Robert Sterling Clark Foundation and the Educational Foundation of America. The conclusions and opinions expressed in this publication, however, are those of the authors.”
Also the two authors, Stanley K. Henshaw and Kathryn Kost have wrote books and articles on abortion remaining legal and have been active with PP international in forcing countries to legalize abortion. (which I find amazing – we tell countries that they can’t tell us how to live, but then we want to tell other countries to live just like us – but I digress).
Then if you look closely you will see they have diclaimers on their numbers:
“*If a state was missing information on a specific characteristic from 15% or more of women obtaining abortions, it was not included in the analysis for that year.”
They are not specific on exactly how the characteristics came into play. Was it just a specific group? If a state provided all numbers on everything but age of woman, was all data removed or just that specific characteristic? They do not say.
Also, there are more than 3 nationally known late term abortion providers. Which 3 are they talking about? Was Kansas the one that was left out? or was it included? We don’t know because they do not tell us.
Better than most people you know how statistics can be manipulated. This was done on this report by adding opinion into their conclusion.
“Among the 15 states that provided individual abortion data were two of the three states with
nationally known providers of late abortions, so our tabulations may overestimate the proportion of pregnancies terminated after 24 weeks in the country as a whole.”
If you go to the CDC you will never see something so vague. As an example here is what the CDC says about case fatality rates
“Case-fatality rates for 1998–2003 cannot be calculated because a substantial number of abortions occurred in the nonreporting states, and the total number of abortions (the denominator) is unknown.”
It is very specific with no guess work. They will not provide the data because they do not have the common denominator.
Guttmacher researched less than 25% of all abortions in the US to obtain their numbers.
If you look above to my post at 10:25 PM you will see how to obtain numbers from facts and not guesswork. You take the average number of post viable abortions from an 8 year study – and compare that to how many clinics that actually do late term abortions. Considering there are 146 clinics and only one was used for the average I decreased the number of abortions in Kansas by 91% and still did not come up with the numbers that the Guttmacher did.
The CDC is very specific about which states are included in these types of statistics, Guttmacher institute is not. Which is why there is “opinion” interjected into the report and why there is a disclaimer at the beginning of the report.
There are far more post viable abortions done in America than anyone cares to know about.
Sorry to confuse you. I forgot I was talking to Doug who doesn’t believe in God, much less take the Catholic Church’s opinion as valid (no offense). Since that letter from the USCCB was the basis of my refuting your argument for the legality of abortion today, never mind. Sorry!
Janet, that’s not it.
What you say may be true, to a point, but I do not think it meant that abortion wasn’t permitted to 4 or 5 months, “quickening,” in England under common law – it certainly was during the time we’re talking about – the mid and late 1700’s.
So, what is the resolution? That common law did not reflect “Catholic rules”? At least not as far as abortion? That would make sense to me.
Doug –
Ancient Greece’s hippocratic oath said doctors could not help a woman have an abortion. Granted they still happened, but the doctor’s had to stay “removed” from it. They would advise strenuous excercise, riding a horse and taking herbal meds and/or poisons. You can read about it in a book wrote by Suranus (?) – I can’t remember the name of the book, it may have been “gynecology” – but I’m not sure.
I know in the late 1700’s into the late 1800’s (or possibly the early 1900’s) doctors couldn’t even look at an unclothed woman – even during delivery of a child. It was illegal for the doctor to even glance at her genetalia. I’m not sure how they could have done an abortion.
I know that mid wives did perform abortions, but they were not bound by the hippocratic oath (or the like). They also had to do them in secret because it was illegal.
I also know that in the Victorian Era there was “open advertisement” of abortions, but that doesn’t mean it was legal – just overlooked.
I did find this on a pro-choice webite – there are no citations so I cannot confirm if it is factual or not:
http://capstone2006.tripod.com/
“Since the early 1700’s laws have been on the books to limit a female’s right to obtain an abortion legally. With time, the laws have evolved greatly….”
Abortion, to my knowledge, has never truely been legal as it is today. I was reading a book on ancient Chinese herbal medication and there were notes in it forbidding doctors to use meds for the purpose of ending a pregnancy. (of course doctors came up with other “reasons”).
With everything I have read – abortion was not legal before the constitution. The medical profession believed that life didn’t begin until quickening, but I don’t see anything that says it was legal before that.
But that is a moot point. IF it was legal, science back then couldn’t prove when life began – it was guessed at quickening – we now know that life begins at conception based on scientific data. This is why the focus from the Pro-choice side went from “it’s just a blob of tissue” to “it’s my body I can do what I want”. Once life was proven, they had to demean the life quality of the embyro/fetus by claiming parasitic attributes.
“Among the 15 states that provided individual abortion data were two of the three states with nationally known providers of late abortions, so our tabulations may overestimate the proportion of pregnancies terminated after 24 weeks in the country as a whole.”
Valerie, yes – no doubt. And that makes sense. If we are going to project to all 50 states, then including what may be 2 of the top 3 in our sample, which is less than one-third of the 50, could certainly skew the results.
…..
If you go to the CDC you will never see something so vague. As an example here is what the CDC says about case fatality rates: “Case-fatality rates for 1998–2003 cannot be calculated because a substantial number of abortions occurred in the nonreporting states, and the total number of abortions (the denominator) is unknown.” It is very specific with no guess work. They will not provide the data because they do not have the common denominator.
Allright, that’s pretty sound. I did think the 1,200,000 abortions per year figure is well-accepted, though.
…..
Guttmacher researched less than 25% of all abortions in the US to obtain their numbers.
That in no way means that the results would necessarily lack accuracy, though. Heck, a poll of a few thousand people can be said to be statistically quite accurate, even though it represents like .002% of voters.
…..
If you look above to my post at 10:25 PM you will see how to obtain numbers from facts and not guesswork. You take the average number of post viable abortions from an 8 year study – and compare that to how many clinics that actually do late term abortions. Considering there are 146 clinics and only one was used for the average I decreased the number of abortions in Kansas by 91% and still did not come up with the numbers that the Guttmacher did.
Isn’t what you are doing there guesswork from the get-go, though, since the only state for which you have numbers is Kansas?
Comparing it to the number of clinics that do post-viability abortions is meaningless without knowing either the average number of such abortions done or the total number for the country, in the beginning.
Doug –
“That in no way means that the results would necessarily lack accuracy, though. Heck, a poll of a few thousand people can be said to be statistically quite accurate, even though it represents like .002% of voters.”
You’re kidding me right? A poll is taken nationwide and not to just a specific region unless otherwise specified. The Guttmacher Institute took only 16 of 52 reporting areas. That’s only 30% of the reporting area’s! In Polls they space everything out by region to include all states, big cities and little cities. That is all explained on the Gallup website. (funny – I just did a report on polling for my blog the other day – that’s the only reason why I know that!)
“Isn’t what you are doing there guesswork from the get-go, though, since the only state for which you have numbers is Kansas?”
Nope – I’m not making up numbers. If you read carefully they are combining the CDC numbers into their numbers – which were compiled differently with different standards. No common anything. I used a common ground by using the only factual information we have on post viable abortions. I then take into account that Kansas would be doing more abortions than any other clinic and reducing to accomadate that. I still had to decrease the numbers of Kansas by 91% to even get close to their numbers. By their own admission, there are 3 well known late term abortionists with a higher than average number of abortions. Take all three of them based on kansas’ average of an 8 year study and you have 894 abortions a year for just 3 of the 143 abortion clinics. So, unless you actually believe that 2% of late term abortionist can do 89% of abortions (based on your 1,000 number) or
almost 40% (using the Guttmacher 2,400) of all late term abortions a year – you would have to conclude that there numbers are inaccurate. Especially since there are more than 3 popular late term abortionist.
“Comparing it to the number of clinics that do post-viability abortions is meaningless without knowing either the average number of such abortions done or the total number for the country, in the beginning.”
You’re right. And that is what is so flawed with the Guttmachers statistics. They do not have any factual numbers to go on. The only factual numbers we have is how many clinics perform post viable abortions and the number of viable abortions Kansas does. The number of 2,400 doesn’t add up considering one reporting area out of 52 does an average of 298 post viable abortions.
A poll is taken nationwide and not to just a specific region unless otherwise specified. The Guttmacher Institute took only 16 of 52 reporting areas. That’s only 30% of the reporting area’s! In Polls they space everything out by region to include all states, big cities and little cities. That is all explained on the Gallup website. (funny – I just did a report on polling for my blog the other day – that’s the only reason why I know that!)
Valerie, do we have reason to think that women are going to vary much among the 52 reporting areas, though? I would say no, and that while 16 of 52 may not be perfect, in this case it’s statistically going to be plenty valid.
I’d say that much more error would be introduced by the variance in state laws, the number of clinics, etc., even just what Guttmacher said about two of the three most prominent late-term places.
…..
I think it only makes sense to reduce the Kansas numbers quite a bit. Other providers could do 1 per year or none – just be listed as “doing them” (even if nobody comes in late-term). As far as I know, if Tiller is #1, then #2 and #3 are well behind him, though there too I don’t have hard numbers.
I would certainly say that 2% of late term abortionists could do 89% of those abortions. 2 per day by 3 people would be over 1400 – in the ballpark from the numbers we’ve been seeing, anyway. Now granted, the actual numbers are less than that, assuming that nobody does more than are done in Kansas.
So, where are we? Somewhere between 1000 and 2400?
For instance, here in Illinois we do late term abortions. But they don’t in Indiana. Or at least not near Chicago. At the clinic where I counsel, we always know that when someone drives up with Indiana license plates, they will be getting a late term abortion.
If you took Indiana and 8 other states without late term clinics, you’d come up with a very small number.
But if you took New York, Illinois California and Kansas, you’d have a huge number.
It would be like polling all of the southern states on how many pairs of mittens they own and using that as a national average.
My understanding is that New York and CA don’t give ANY statistics on how many abortions they do, so that would skew ANY statistics.
Doug –
“I’d say that much more error would be introduced by the variance in state laws, the number of clinics, etc., even just what Guttmacher said about two of the three most prominent late-term places.”
There are plenty of variances. The laws for abortion in the mid-west, bible belt and northern plain states are drastically different than the abortion laws of the east coast and west coast. Let’s take NYC – a city, not a state.
http://www.health.state.ny.us/statistics/chac/birth/aborts60.htm
There are on average – taken from the last 10 years – 75 abortions for every 100 live births. If I wanted to skew some numbers on state capitals and abortion I would definately use this in the stats, wouldn’t you? Then, I would only give vague information…something like “some states may have more abortions per live births than others so we may have over estimated the numbers”. Ya think? over estimate because I put the extreme into the stats. And I guarentee that I would not use the cities with the lowest numbers. I also would not list which cities I used. This is why not giving specifics on everything is a red flag that something is up. You will notice that government statistics – the CDC, Census Bureau to name 2 – never quote a stat without giving full documentation. Sometimes it is annoying – you have to read 3+ pages of information on precisely how their information was obtained before getting to the information you need!
“I would certainly say that 2% of late term abortionists could do 89% of those abortions. “
I would agree with you if the numbers were low. something around 500. Since I’ve been doing averages, lets average the 2 numbers. 1,000 + 2400 = 3400 / 2 = 1700. so lets say that there are 1,700 post viable abortions a year and 2% of abortionists do 89%. We know that 2% is appx 3 clinics (143 clinics / 2%) that would mean that these 3 clinics do 1,513 abortions a year. divide that by 3 – that would be over 500 post viable abortions a year between the three of them. Since we have already guessed that Kansas has a higher number than most which is 298 – that means the other 2 were extrememly busy.
It just isn’t possible. We would have to go by the absolute lowest number of suspected post viable abortions of 1,000 before we can get the other 2 to be around the 298 number. But didn’t we deduce that Kansas’ would be the highest?
Ya see. It just isn’t possible for 2% of abortionist to do 89% of the abortions.
“So, where are we? Somewhere between 1000 and 2400?”
Honestly, I have no idea. The PC side will say 1,000; the PL side will say 2,400. I’d say we can just stick with the 1,700 number and call it a day.
Either way it is one post viable abortion too many.
MK –
NY does give statistics, but they are extremely off. The reason is because of all the people that work in NYC and surrounding area’s but do not live in NY. This skews the NY stats signigicantly. This is why NYC reports seperately. NY doesn’t want their numbers to bring the overall number up artificially.
It just isn’t possible. We would have to go by the absolute lowest number of suspected post viable abortions of 1,000 before we can get the other 2 to be around the 298 number. But didn’t we deduce that Kansas’ would be the highest?
Val – yes, though I’m just guessing there. I did say “could do” as in hypothetically. If we go with the premise that the 298 is the most, then the 3 providers could only do a maximum of around 37% of the 2400, IF we also accept the 2400, of course….
……
“So, where are we? Somewhere between 1000 and 2400?”
Honestly, I have no idea. The PC side will say 1,000; the PL side will say 2,400. I’d say we can just stick with the 1,700 number and call it a day.
That seems pretty reasonable to me.
A couple of things as I was reading this thread:
1) The use of viability as a determining factor is absurd. For one, numerous posters have commented that past 21 weeks its 50/50, and it gets incrementally better afterwards. Ten years ago, the age of viability would have been higher. Ten years from now, the age might be 15 weeks. It is an arbitrary number/age.
2) Using sheer reason, we can state that a fetus is actually a baby, a human being. It may look differently, and not have all of the mental or physical capacities as an adult, but it is a human. A fetus, if left alone in a womb, will invariably be born as a infant human. Therefore, the only difference between my 18-month old son and a 3 week “fetus” is that the fetus isn’t breathing air and is safely enclosed in it’s mother’s womb and my 18-month old is a bit bigger (ok, a lot bigger). Both are under-developed physically, both depend on adults for care, both lack complete mental faculties, both lack complete physical faculties. If you removed a fetus, no matter what age, and left if alone, it would die, just like my son. If you did that to my son, you would be tried for murder. If you do that to a fetus, you get paid by a woman who probably did something that was unwise.
3) Women who get abortions don’t want to merely terminate a pregnancy, they want to eliminate the child. The two are inseparable. When women don’t want to get pregnant, they use “birth”-control, not “pregnancy”-control. Furthermore, if they’d wait 9-months, their pregnancy would be over. What is the complaint or reason? “I can’t have a baby (now)!!!” Pregnancy implies baby. A woman who enters into an abortion clinic understands that abortion removes the cause of the pregnancy: the baby.
4) In 1803, Lord Ellenborough’s Act was passed in the UK, lessening the penalty for the felony of pre-quickening abortion. Therefore, abortion in England at the time of the Revolution and the Constitution was illegal. In fact, Between 1825-1880, all 50 states passed laws that punished those that performed or attempted to perform abortions. That doesn’t exactly mean that abortion was legal. Irregardless, in 1825, James Madison, considered by many the Father of the Constitution, was alive (he died in 1836). He did not complain about the emergence of laws against abortion. Likewise, neither did John Adams complain when Conneticut made it illegal to sell poisons known to induce abortions. Apparently, those who wrote the Constitution didn’t think that prohibitting abortion violated it.
Very good, mrteachersir!!
mrteachersir, thanks!
For one, numerous posters have commented that past 21 weeks its 50/50, and it gets incrementally better afterwards. Ten years ago, the age of viability would have been higher. Ten years from now, the age might be 15 weeks. It is an arbitrary number/age.
Actually, it’s around 24 weeks now, maybe 23 if the hospital is top-rank for preemie care.
It’s come down over the time, yes, but we’re getting pretty hard up against the lungs being not developed enough to sustain life outside the womb, so no 15 weeks in the next ten years.
…..
Using sheer reason, we can state that a fetus is actually a baby, a human being.
“A human being,” yes, if we are only saying “living human organism” or the like. But “baby” or not is subjective. And whether one feels that “baby” applies or not, do we as a society really need to force pregnant women to stay pregnant if they don’t want to be?
…..
In 1803, Lord Ellenborough’s Act was passed in the UK, lessening the penalty for the felony of pre-quickening abortion. Therefore, abortion in England at the time of the Revolution and the Constitution was illegal.
Heh, 180 degrees wrong. That act made causing or performing an abortion a crime. No doubt that from 1803 to later years in England, that abortion was illegal. But to quickening it had been legal under common law until 1803, and legal in England and the US in “Constitutional” times.
Indeed, in the US abortion became illegal under state laws in the 1800’s – the fact remains that it was legal, with restrictions as to time of gestation (as we have it now) before, during, and after the writing of the Constitution.
“In 1803, Lord Ellenborough’s Act was passed in the UK, lessening the penalty for the felony of pre-quickening abortion. Therefore, abortion in England at the time of the Revolution and the Constitution was illegal.”
Heh, 180 degrees wrong. That act made causing or performing an abortion a crime. No doubt that from 1803 to later years in England, that abortion was illegal. But to quickening it had been legal under common law until 1803, and legal in England and the US in “Constitutional” times.
Indeed, in the US abortion became illegal under state laws in the 1800’s – the fact remains that it was legal, with restrictions as to time of gestation (as we have it now) before, during, and after the writing of the Constitution.
Posted by: Doug at October 2, 2008 9:14 AM
Why do you rarely substantiate your so-called “facts” with references? Do you know everything off the top of your head? Website sources would be appreciated (with actual links). Thanks.
“Heh, 180 degrees wrong. That act made causing or performing an abortion a crime. No doubt that from 1803 to later years in England, that abortion was illegal. But to quickening it had been legal under common law until 1803, and legal in England and the US in “Constitutional” times.”
“Indeed, in the US abortion became illegal under state laws in the 1800’s – the fact remains that it was legal, with restrictions as to time of gestation (as we have it now) before, during, and after the writing of the Constitution.”
Why do you rarely substantiate your so-called “facts” with references? Do you know everything off the top of your head? Website sources would be appreciated (with actual links). Thanks.
Janet, the other poster gave no references, and yes – I know darn well they were wrong about the Ellenborough act. This is not the first time it’s come up.
After being on message boards like this for some months or years, I think a person would very likely be aware that the states began making abortion illegal (prior to “quickening”) in the 1800’s, i.e. that prior to that it was legal.
However, I’ll gladly provide some confirmation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Ellenborough's_Act
The act really was in 1803…
In the thirteenth century St. Thomas Aquinas had said that life is manifested principally in two kinds of actions: knowledge and movement. It could be taken to follow that animus, soul, or life, enters the body of the unborn infant when it first moves or stirs in the womb. This became the rule of English law. “Quickening” (literally, “coming to life”) was held to occur not at a fixed time after conception, but at the moment when fetal movement is first detected—an event that varies with each pregnancy, but which usually happens near midterm, around the twentieth week.
It is not known exactly when this became the rule in England. The early twelfth-century text known as the Leges Henrici Primi took it for granted that animation occurs forty days after conception: abortion (which was treated only as an ecclesiastical offense) was said to be subject to three years’ penance if it took place within those forty days, ten years’ penance, as “quasi homicide,” if it took place after animation (quickening). The identification of quickening with the first perception of fetal movement has been thought to date from the time of Henry de Bracton, a thirteenth-century judge and contemporary of Aquinas, who wrote the first systematic treatise on English law. But Bracton merely restated the canon law rule: “If one strikes a pregnant woman or gives her poison in order to procure an abortion, if the fetus is already formed or animated (quickened), especially if it is animated (quickened), he commits homicide.” The usage by which a quickened fetus means one that has been felt moving in the womb could well be a much later development.
Although Bracton said that abortion of a quickened fetus was homicide, later writers insisted that it could not be homicide at common law. The proposition that abortion cannot be homicide is reiterated by practically every major writer on English criminal law, from William Staunford and William Lambard in the sixteenth century, through Edward Coke and Matthew Hale in the seventeenth century, to William Hawkins and William Blackstone in the eighteenth century. Homicide was agreed to require the prior birth of the victim. Murder might be charged, according to Hale, if the woman on whom an abortion was performed died as a result. Murder also might be charged, according to Coke, if a botched abortion injured a fetus that afterwards was born alive and then died from its prenatal injuries. But where a fetus, even a quickened fetus, was killed in the womb, resulting in stillbirth, whatever the crime, it would not be homicide at common law.
http://law.jrank.org/pages/445/Abortion-Abortion-in-English-law.html
Doug,
Thanks for the links.
From Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Ellenborough's_Act
“The bill was proposed by the Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales, Edward Law, 1st Baron Ellenborough. Lord Ellenborough wished to clarify the law relating to abortion which at the same was not clearly defined in the common law. The bill was introduced in the House of Lords in March 1803 as the Malicious Shootings Bill and also included provisions for clarifying certain other offences. After various amendments it was passed to the House of Commons on 18 May. The Act received Royal Assent on 24 June.
“The Act provided that it was an offence for any person to perform or cause an abortion. The punishment for performing an abortion was the death penalty.”
Do you think it is reasonable to assume that abortion went from legal to illegal (with penalty of death, I might add) in the year 1803?
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
On your second comment. St. Thomas Aquinas’ determination was influenced by the question of when a soul entered the body and also the fact the modern science was unknown. A woman did not have access to pregnancy tests and often did not know she was pregnant until after quickening (movement in the womb). With modern science that is still the case for some women.) This would explain why ending the pregnancy after quickening would be considered homicide. Intent could be proven with certainty because she knew she was pregnant.
My question to you, is why did various English writers make arguments against the criminality of abortion for centuries if were already legal and accepted as such as you claim? If there were not dissenters on the other side, there would be no cause for discussion, would there? I don’t think things have changed much! Have I changed your mind at all?
Correction:
” …. if [ABORTION] were already legal …”
Do you think it is reasonable to assume that abortion went from legal to illegal (with penalty of death, I might add) in the year 1803?
Yeah – common law was accepted rules going way back in time – they were not written down on paper, statute by statute, as later became the case. It wasn’t abortion as a whole – it was abortion prior to quickening. After that, while the death penalty may not have been involved, it wasn’t permitted under common law. (The enforcement of post-quickening rules against abortion under common law remains a matter of some debate.)
……
My question to you, is why did various English writers make arguments against the criminality of abortion for centuries if were already legal and accepted as such as you claim? If there were not dissenters on the other side, there would be no cause for discussion, would there? I don’t think things have changed much! Have I changed your mind at all?
I’m not familiar with the cases you mention, Janet, but if it was for the time after quickening then it’d make sense, since the common law did have that as agin’ the rules.
If you mean the writers on English law in what I quoted, that was about whether abortion would be homocide or not, and that’s not the same as being simply legal or illegal.
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