Breaking news: Belkis Gonzalez arrested
UPDATE, 3/4, 4:15p: Attorney Tom Brejcha of the Thomas More Society, lead firm in the aborted baby’s mother’s civil lawsuit, has just issued this statement:
While we most certainly welcome the bringing of criminal charges against Ms. Gonzalez, whose abortion business represents nothing less than a serious public health hazard, we must express our grave disappointment, indeed our outrage, that no homicide charges have been brought on account of the wrongful death of this little girl.
Not only the coroner’s report, but also eyewitness testimony, prove that this infant was born alive then brutally killed. That constitutes homicide under the law of FL and treating it as anything less than that ignores fundamental legal principles and offends simple human decency. We demand that Dade County’s law enforcers add a homicide charge, or at least an attempted homicide charge, without any more delay.
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UPDATE, 3/4, 10:30a: Drudge is carrying this story, top of the fold (click to enlarge)…
I find the title of the Associated Press story interesting, given there were no murder charges…
[HT: Colleen]
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UPDATE, 3/4, 6a: Here’s a CBS News video report…
UPDATE, 3/4, 5:30a: Here we see abortion bias, as reported by CNN. In any other case killing someone, even if dying, would be considered homicide:
Authorities were unable to file more serious charges against Gonzalez because they are unable to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the baby was born alive, according to Ed Griffith, a spokesman for the Miami state attorney’s office….
Williams “observed the infant moving and making noises for approximately five minutes,” according to an affidavit in support of Gonzalez’s arrest warrant….
[Belkis] Gonzalez gave police a statement, meanwhile, and “asserted under oath” that Williams’ termination was done by Dr. Renelique while she stood at his side, according to the affidavit.
She denied that the infant came out alive, police said, but statements from two other clinic employees contradicted her account….
Documents from the state Department of Health say the baby’s cause of death was determined to be “extreme prematurity.”
However, according to the police affidavit, the medical examiner could not definitively say that the baby had been born alive. A birth certificate was issued, because nothing in the autopsy findings disproved Williams’ claim the baby was alive and moving.
Experts told police the baby would not have suffocated in the bag because it would have had a limited ability to breathe on its own. And an expert reported there was no way to prove for sure that the baby filled its lungs with air because of its underdeveloped lungs, as well as its decomposed state when the remains were found.
Another expert certified in neonatal and perinatal medicine told police he estimated Williams’ fetus, based on data from her medical records, to have a gestational age of about 21 and a half weeks — meaning it had not reached viability, the state where it could survive outside the womb.
“This expert … explained that the standard of care for a premature infant delivered at less than 23 weeks is not to attempt resuscitation,” so even if the baby had been born at a hospital, no measures would have been undertaken to save it, according to the affidavit.
The baby was given a birth certificate. The medical examiner’s report indicates the baby died of “extreme prematurity.” Three witnesses say the baby was born alive. But still, as a CBS report synopsizes:
Medical experts say this was not homicide, because the fetus was too young to survive; around 21-weeks-old and weighing just over a pound.
I’ll be interested in the Miami-Dade state attorney’s assessment the next time someone murders an Alzheimers patient.
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UPDATE, 3/3, 7p: Operation Rescue has issued a statement that includes this additional information:
As of this writing, Gonzalez is being held at the Turner Guilford Knight Correctional Center in Miami on a $50,000 bond.
OR also released Gonzalez’ mugshot, below.
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Developing story…
I am told Belkis Gonzalez, owner of A Gyn Diagnostics abortion mill, in Hialeah, FL was arrested today on criminal charges related to the death of abortion survivor Shanice Williams on July 20, 2006.
Operation Rescue received a copy of the warrant and kindly forwarded it to me. Here it is.
Gonzalez is being charged with unlicensed practice of a health care profession resulting in serious bodily injury, a second degree felony, and tampering with or fabricating physical evidence, a third degree felony.
Miami-Dade State Attorney Katherine Rundle is NOT rightfully charging Gonzalez with homicide, even though the warrant acknowledges Shanice was born alive, and Gonzalez put the living baby in a biohazard bag….
The rationale given in the warrant is the baby was not viable. Age was estimated at 21.5 weeks.
It doesn’t matter. Even if that child would have lived only 5 minutes, she was entitled to those 5 minutes.
WWSB is now reporting:
If found guilty, the 43-year-old faces up to 15 years in prison….
Miami-Dade State Attorney spokesman Ed Griffith says authorities were unable to definitively determine the cause of death – and Gonzalez’s role in it – because the baby’s body had decomposed by the time it was found eight days later.
This is a miscarriage of justice. Gonzalez is being rewarded for throwing the baby in the bag onto the baking FL clinic roof for over a week to hide her, causing the decomposition.
I hope Gonzalez she spends every one of those 15 years in prison, although I doubt that will happen.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
It just makes me so sick hearing this stuff again and again.
Culture of death, anyone?
“All those who hate me love death.”-prov. 8:36
It was found decomposing? What, even if she’s born she’s still an it? This is terribly depressing news, but we really ought to keep our heads up and keep hoping that perhaps equality was given to children elsewhere in the world when their mothers found the strength that all women have to keep going. Perhaps it’s situations such as this that must remind us that there really is such a thing as good in humankind.
I just don’t undesrstand how so many people can stand by and do nothing in the face of these murders. Even more disturbing is that people SUPPORT this man.
What is wrong with this world?
I thought the Safe Haven laws were supposed to prevent this, that it was merely a matter of educating women that they could drop their newborns off at designated places with no questions asked. Seems like the left thinks everything is solved by educating, yet they refuse to educate anything about right and wrong.
Don’t worry Luana and Lauren and Bethany- to the anti-freedom, ignorance is bliss. They despise education because it goes against bigotry- and not just bigotry against the preborn but bigotry against the impoverished or the non-Anglo. I’m Hispanic- I get what it’s like to be their subhuman targets. And yes, bigotry, because it’s born of the ignorance spread by their movement, is powerful but things like this could only ever be temporary. It’s just so sad.
Luana
I think your comment was meant for the toilet “abortion”.
In this case, I believe the mother regretted her decision to abort after seeing her baby gasping for breathe.
From CNN:
Experts told police the baby would not have suffocated in the bag because it would have had a limited ability to breathe on its own. And an expert reported there was no way to prove for sure that the baby filled its lungs with air because of its underdeveloped lungs, as well as its decomposed state when the remains were found.
Another expert certified in neonatal and perinatal medicine told police he estimated Williams’ fetus, based on data from her medical records, to have a gestational age of about 21 and a half weeks — meaning it had not reached viability, the state where it could survive outside the womb.
“This expert … explained that the standard of care for a premature infant delivered at less than 23 weeks is not to attempt resuscitation,” so even if the baby had been born at a hospital, no measures would have been undertaken to save it, according to the affidavit.
So it wasn’t murder after all. Interesting.
Gosh, reality.
You may be onto something. When babies are born premature they are all stuffed into biohazard bags aren’t they??
Thanks for stopping by to clear that up.
In my state, there was a set of Quadruplets that recently celebrated their 1st birthday. They were born almost 4 months early last year. Guess they were lucky they weren’t stuffed into bio-hazard bags and left to die.
Its a sick sick world.
When babies are born premature they are all stuffed into biohazard bags aren’t they??
When they’re under 23 weeks, they aren’t resuscitated.
Reading comprehension: get some.
In a hospital are they stuffed into biohazard bags before 23 weeks? Are they simply whisked off from their parents and thrown away?
I do know the dif between the words resuscitated and bio hazard. Thanks.
In my state, there was a set of Quadruplets that recently celebrated their 1st birthday. They were born almost 4 months early last year. Guess they were lucky they weren’t stuffed into bio-hazard bags and left to die.
They’re lucky they weren’t born almost five months early like this one, because then they wouldn’t have survived.
Awesome, Carla. Now learn the difference between a hospital, where wanted babies are born, and an abortion clinic, where women go to end unwanted pregnancies.
Biohazard bag or not, it would not have survived nor been resuscitated, therefore: not murder. Her only crimes were performing a medical procedure without a license and falsifying medical records.
This baby has a name and her name is Shanice.
Little Shanice: Someday REAL justice will come for you.
Unwanted is not a condition of a child, it is an attitude of adults.
Shanice lived before she died. She lived!!
Unwanted is not a condition of a child, it is an attitude of adults.
It’s also why the remains were placed in a biohazard bag rather than shoved in the patient’s face.
Shanice lived before she died. She lived!!
Yep, right up until Sycloria decided to abort the pregnancy before viability, as she was legally allowed to do. She has no one to blame for that but herself.
Liz, yes it was meant for there. I goofed, and I agree about this mother.
Reality conveniently omits the fact that an infant that isn’t a candidate for resuscitation is still entitled to comfort care whether it’s born in an abortion clinic or a hospital. A baby’s unwanted status doesn’t override this basic entitlement unless BAIPA is overturned.
Was Shanice murdered? I have no idea. But it seems pretty clear that a biohazard bag isn’t the standard comfort care she deserved and was LEGALLY ENTITLED to until natural death.
Reality, you really ought not to be so intolerant. Whether you like everyone on this earth or not, they are here. They’re not your punching bags and the mother who chose to have the abortion was in a situation brought on by lack of alternatives. Please think clearly before continuing to dehumanize and degrade. It’s disgusting. You may not and probably do not concern yourself with the impoverished, but rest assured the impoverished are still people whether you want them on your earth or not. Please don’t be so judgmental.
I can only hope Gonzalez gets kicked while in jail….and more than once.
I have no sympathy for her at all.
I hope she’s there for the full 15 years, also.
murder.
Reality, you are a sicko.
But you already know that.
But at least you’re consistent…you show the true reality of “choice”. You show that you don’t even care if the baby is in the mother’s womb or not – you just want it DEAD.
May Shanice rest in peace.
Reality, if a baby is born, it doesn’t matter whether it is “viable” or not (even though viable is an arbitrary definition anyway!)
Under the constitution it is LEGALLY PROTECTED after birth, no matter what the circumstances were that caused the birth.
Taking an action to kill even a non-viable baby who has been born and is alive is ILLEGAL. and that includes if it was born as a result of an abortion!
You guys don’t care about the law, even though you claim to! You only care about killing babies. You want to kill, kill, kill. You are so blood thirsty.
I take issue with the Media report of this, this was not a “botched abortion”, this was a birth then murder took place afterwards…..the liars
I love you, Sycloria and I love your daughter, Shanice. I am so sorry for what you have both been through. So very sorry. I am praying for you today.
Poor baby girl. She rests in peace now with God, though, and I have to say, this is my first time ever perusing commentary boards, and I’m absoultely amazed by the outpooring of love for so many here. I’m certain that, though this seems to be in vain, this touches those in need and, without love, would end up in the clutches of anti-freedom fear-mongers like Planned Parenthood. It’s nice to see you all and I’m certain- at least I’m praying and hoping- that Sycloria is receiving love like this everywhere!
Vannah, I agree. Carla especially is a very loving person and her words are going to reach many hearts who need to know that they are loved despite having chosen abortion.
Who can even imagine what that mother is going through right now? I think of Angele anytime something like this happens. I hope that she will find healing, comfort, and forgiveness through Christ’s mercy.
Today good news already! al-Bashir of Sudan, the man responsible for the Darfur genocide, has an arrest warrant on his head. And today there are women choosing life rather than ownership of another human being. It’s good to have hopeful news in depressing times, isn’t it?
Vannah, that is good news.
Hi Vannah,
I cannot bear the thought that Sycloria might read the despicable words written about her precious girl. You are right. Shanice is in heaven now.
God bless you! I hope you stay awhile! :)
Maybe my friend Angele will stop by!!!
Thank you for your kind words. This is why I’ve been hoping to volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center near me- to keep travesties of this caliber down. Does anyone else work in the pro-life movement as a volunteer? If you do, I should very much like to ask you what it’s like. Do you meet a lot of women who are like Sycloria? Do a lot of women choose life though they are in positions such as Sycloria’s? I hope so…
Vannah, I’ve only been at the CPC I’m volunteering at for about a year.
In that time, there have not been that many women who wanted an abortion- but of the ones who have, they have not gotten back with us whether they are going to keep the baby or not. We can only pray that they made the right choice for themselves and the baby.
Most of our meetings have ended on a positive note and I think that many of them have chosen life. I just won’t know for a while yet.
In previous years in the same CPC, there have been dozens and dozens of women who have written thank you notes and cards and who have sent in pictures of their babies, so I know there are many who do… it just takes a while to hear from them sometimes.
Most of the women who come to my center are looking for diapers, formula, maternity clothing, etc. It is a very rewarding place to be…I really enjoy being able to help women who are pregnant or have children.
I am so glad to hear you might be volunteering soon! You will be a great help, I know.
Depending on where you live, your experience could be very different than mine. We don’t have an abortion clinic in my city, so that is probably why we have fewer girls coming in seeking abortions.
Jill, I don’t know how you can keep up with these stories day in and day out. They are so horrific. I
In the original story it says that Sycloria Williams felt she was “too immature” to care for a baby. Let’s pray she is mature enough to deal with the horror she witnessed in exercising her choice.
Let’s not forget that this baby is dead because Sycloria paid this clinic to kill the baby. Yes, the way they murdered the baby after birth is disgusting, but no more disgusting than the way they kill the babies before they are born.
I have no sympathy for Sycloria and any “trauma” she endured by watching them do what she paid them to do. Let’s have our sympathies rest with the real victim, not the perpetrator. If Sycloria is repentant and suffering with the rightful guilt for what she did, that’s actually a sign of something RIGHT, something that all good conscienced people endure when they realize they have done something wrong I do hope she gets the healing and forgiveness she needs from Jesus, but she is not entitled to anyone’s sympathies.
“Jill, I don’t know how you can keep up with these stories day in and day out. They are so horrific. I
Posted by: Pansy Moss at March 4, 2009 12:47 PM”
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Pansy…I have to agree…it’s very, very disturbing to hear/read about this news everyday. Sometimes I have to stop and clear my soul first before I read more.
BUT, I believe it keeps us vigilant and keeps pro-lifers from getting complacent about the work. It reminds me that we have much more work and praying/fasting to do before this all comes to an end.
I totally disagree with you Jacqueline.
It is that very attitude that kept me in the dark for so very long. YEARS of pain and suffering over what I had done and “the good Christians” that said to me “I can’t believe you killed your baby!” “How could you do that?” “How could any woman do that?”
I was won by love. So was Norma McCorvey and Carol Everett and Bernard Nathanson and Angele.
Sycloria will be won by love. They will all be won by love.
I love you, Sycloria.
I love you, Shanice.
Hmmm. It does seem as though, obviously, women make the decision and they carry much of the burden from what they did. But living in an impoverished area or waking up every morning to empty cabinets or empty bank accounts is not easy. That’s why, I think, the pro-life movement is necessary for it comes around saying that no one ought to be a second-class citizen. It extends beyond abortion. Though, admittedly, abortion and its victims are the primary focus. I don’t have a problem with that. The poor and the preborn are too often ignored.
I live in a small town, too, and the nearest Little Aushwitz in nearly an hour away. I don’t think that women want to make the drive over a mountain to get a procedure done that they only support because they’ve no other options. Our crisis center is small but rewarding. It’s good to see you volunteer, too! I hope I can help just as many women as you do!
Touche, Carla.
Let’s not forget that this baby is dead because Sycloria paid this clinic to kill the baby. Yes, the way they murdered the baby after birth is disgusting, but no more disgusting than the way they kill the babies before they are born.
I have no sympathy for Sycloria and any “trauma” she endured by watching them do what she paid them to do. Let’s have our sympathies rest with the real victim, not the perpetrator. If Sycloria is repentant and suffering with the rightful guilt for what she did, that’s actually a sign of something RIGHT, something that all good conscienced people endure when they realize they have done something wrong I do hope she gets the healing and forgiveness she needs from Jesus, but she is not entitled to anyone’s sympathies.
Posted by: Jacqueline at March 4, 2009 2:17 PM
no Jacqueline: we have to hate the sin and love the sinner because we are all capable of sinning and in fact do sin!
God loves Sycloria more than we can ever imagine. And he wants her in heaven with him some day too.
We need to do everything we can to help her heal – guilt is a start but no person can or should stay in the guilt phase forever. They need to experience the healing love of Christ and that needs to be done through the Christian community by our prayer and actions.
Amen, angel.
no Jacqueline: we have to hate the sin and love the sinner because we are all capable of sinning and in fact do sin!
True- but God only forgives those that ask, and with our asking forgiveness we have to turn from what we’ve done. I don’t hate Sycloria, I just don’t blame the clinic exclusively for doing what she asked them to do. Her baby is dead because of her. This is not like someone grabbing a child from a mother on the street and killing the baby. She walked in, handed them money to kill the baby.
God loves Sycloria more than we can ever imagine. And he wants her in heaven with him some day too. So do I. Didn’t I say that? But God can only save her with her consent.
We need to do everything we can to help her heal – guilt is a start but no person can or should stay in the guilt phase forever. They need to experience the healing love of Christ and that needs to be done through the Christian community by our prayer and actions. Exactly- and we do. My issue is that everyone here is acting like Belkis is the only one responsible for Shanice’s death. It’s stoning Belkis and “oh poor baby”ing Sycloria, as if you has no role in this at all.
We WANT to beleive that post-abortive women are victims and the industry is solely to blame, but I don’t think women are as stupid as this charitable assumption makes them out to be. Even though there is deception, women know what they are doing, not to the full extent, but enough to know better.
“the standard of care for a premature infant delivered at less than 23 weeks is not to attempt resuscitation,” so even if the baby had been born at a hospital, no measures would have been undertaken to save it, according to the affidavit.”
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I am getting a Katrinaesque image of rows of dead and dying people in garbage bags on the roofs of hospitals around Florida.
Is this the ‘standard of care’ for patients who are diagnosed as ‘terminal’?
I understand from a legal perspective that a prosecutor would only bring charges that he/she had evidence to support. To bring charges when there is little or no corroborating evidence would be improper, but when you have witnesses who have given sworn statements that they saw the premature infant moving and struggling to breathe it seems to be enough to meet that standard of proof.
Bring the homicide charge as well as the lesser charges and let a jury sort it out.
Seems to me like the prosecutor was trying to navigate a PR minefield more mindful of her/his liabilities than the rights of the victim.
A record has been created and somewhere sometime there will be a day of accounting.
Reminds me of the the lady in ‘A Tale of Two Cities’ who was always busy knitting when people openly talked of the things they had done.
She knit their names into her material like a court reporter and later it was read back when they were held accountable for their crimes.
Eventually the truth will out and justice will be done. It will be more fair and impartial than it was for the victims but the perpetrators will be held accountable.
yor bro ken
I take full responsibility for my actions in my abortion, Jacqueline. I was absolutely deceived and in my desperation I did what should be unthinkable. I have found hope and healing in Jesus Christ. Only took about 10 years.
Give Sycloria some time to move through all of the stages of grief. Grief that comes from killing your own child. I am sure she is well aware NOW of what she has done. But what can she do but move forward from here?
Your contempt and judgment for post abortive women is sad. Really. You are trying very hard to make a point. Please explain if you can.
I haven’t mentioned Belkis.
There is a point to be made when stating that women are not fools. Women aren’t fools. They understood that what they were doing (well, as best as they could while trying to get a clear message out of all of Planned Parenthood’s “it-will-be-like-sunshines-and-you-might-even-become-a-princess-of-a-purple-mountain”)was not necessarily right. The difficulty here is poverty, which forces many to make the decision that gnaws away at their minds. Women don’t make these decisions lightly (or, lest, I hope not) and this stresses the fact that, clearly, we as a nation are in quite a lot of trouble when we must turn to devaluing ourselves. But this is not a simple matter, and certainly not as simple as blaming women or redirecting blame to clinics. Naturally, the opressor is always to blame for oppression, and therefore the anti-freedom movement is to blame. But women who live under this opression, while they are to blame, are placed under undue amounts of pressure brought on by anti-life restriction on their rights and rights of the preborn. Both of you are right. Women are and at the same time aren’t to blame, but as Martin Luther King, Jr. said, “Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.” The opressor is abortion and its supporters and the only driving it away, both legally and illegally, is through patience and forgiveness, but also acknowledgement of, yes, even women’s mistakes.
I’m not contemptous, Carla. On the contrary, I get emails from post-abortive women on a regular basis seeking some sort of help and I praise God that they found the courage to email and that I can give them some hope that their lives don’t need to continue this way.
I’m a beleiver in meeting people where they are. So when I get an email from a woman who is severely depressed and otherwise suffering from an abortion, nothing else matters but helping and protecting her. Many women who email me preface their email with “I know I made the right choice” and follow it up with “but I still want to die/have nightmares about dead babies/can’t sleep without large doses of painkillers/etc”. Now, we know she didn’t make the right choice and her suffering now should indicate to her that she didn’t make the right choice- but none of that matters: She’s hurting and you do what you can to make it better. Repentant or not, you love and help those that need it.
Now, that being said, what I oppose is the assuption that woman must be ignorant pawns, not responsible/accountable for their actions because the alternative makes us look, as you said, “contemptuous and judgemental.” I think there is a reconcilation between the two, that it’s not so black or white, because as you can see, thinking women are stupid weaklings and thinking them selfish are both pretty awful characterizations of woman-kind. In order to be consistent in their rightful abhorrence of abortion, pro-lifers choose to think women stupid (they don’t know about fetal development, they don’t know about adoption, they are simply victims of the abortion industry). They also see this as more compassionate than thinking these women self-centered (I just don’t want to be pregnant, so baby be damned.) I reject BOTH characterizations of women.
Maybe that needs more explanation.
Yes, there are women that don’t know about fetal development or beleive the lie that “it’s not a baby yet” and yes there are some women that have ultrasounds, see their thumb-sucking baby and go next door and abort that child, like they did their previous 4. I’m not kidding- in our CPC next to the abortion mill, one woman would come and get a sonogram from us and say, “Wow- isn’t that cool?” and go next door and abort the child.
There can also be a combination of ignorance and malevolence or willfull ignorance to rationalize/enable malevolence. It can be coerced by persons or circumstances complicating ignorance v. malevolence, or misguided benevolence ( i.e. “my baby is better off dead than not having a mother that can provide/living with a disability/etc.”) But it’s never just the characterization that women are victims.
To further explain, for every baby aborted, there are two parties involved: a woman submitting to it and someone facilitating it (giving a pill, operating the suction machine, etc.). You can’t have an abortion as we know it without the cooperation of both of these parties.
Since it takes two to tango, I oppose how certain pro-lifers charitably gloss-over the integral role that the woman plays, instead acting as if the clinic is the sole murderer and the woman is an innocent bystander. What I saw in this thread was just say, “Poor Syclora. They killed her baby! It’s a good thing Belkis is arrested.” as if Belkis acted alone. I think this reinforces the short-sided characterization that women have no accountability here.
Jacqueline, I know there is a disagreement on what the penalty should be for the woman that hinges on what they feel their role is in the abortion.
So just curious, if abortion was illegal, what kind of punishment should be allotted to the woman v. abortionist?
Jacqueline, I know there is a disagreement on what the penalty should be for the woman that hinges on what they feel their role is in the abortion.
So just curious, if abortion was illegal, what kind of punishment should be allotted to the woman v. abortionist?
That’s where Feminists for Life and I disagree. Although I adore them beyond all reason nonetheless.
We have an issue with widespread deception regarding the humanity of the unborn. Also, the fact that abortion has been legal has legitimized it (“If it’s legal, it must be okay.”), so we do have a culpability issue.
The answer is to go case-by-case like we handle the deaths of post-born people- from first degree murder to manslaughter. Circumstances mitigate the type of charges brought- from the perpetrators state of mind (crime of passion v. pemeditated), the type of death (accidental/intentional) and so on.
Bottom line- preborn human beings should be treated like post-born human beings in this regard.
Punishment can be difficult to tell. Social justice is about keeping all people equal in the eyes of the law. We cannot have social justice without the criminalization of abortion, though that is just the start when it comes to truly being concerned for equality. I cannot tell, PrettyinPink, if your comment was one of general curiosity as a pro-life supporter or intrigue as a pro-choice supporter.
In a perfect society, there would be no abortion. But since criminalizing abortion would not create a perfect society, people are bound to break the law. The solution must be to determine what is ethical for this violation of human rights. Abortion is a challenge for any human rights activist to overcome, certainly, and we must always recall that women aren’t “stoked” to be having a machine sucking out their child. I personally feel that it depends on a case to case basis, just as it depends on a case to case basis with any other crime. In other murders, hate-crimes, motives, and planning are all taken into account.
However, abortion is normally an act of greed and need to dominate on the part of the abortionist and desperation on the part of the woman. Motives aside, they ought to be punished equally, in my own opinion, but that if the woman lived in poverty she ought to have that taken into consideration of her punishment. If the woman had done the terrible act out of pure, unadulterated selfish motives, then she ought to be punished without sympathy that is at once awarded to women whose motives were truly nonexistent- as in, women whose motives where spurred not by the fact that she loathed the child within her but by the fact that she was out of alternatives. The child must therefore be given equal protection under the eyes of the law and given what all other muder victims are given- justice (hopefully).
In abortion, the woman can act as the conspirator and she can be just as guilty as the hitman. But this is a matter taken to trial, just like the crimes of rape, murder, fraud, etc. and determined by an ubiased judge and jury what the proper punishment ought to be. You cannot codify this process. That would be propaganda, and, yes, the anti-freedom movement is quite relaxed with propaganda (they must be, for they use it so often) but that does not mean that we cannot achieve social justice yet. We can educate ourselves, love and care for one another, and forgive one another despite our dastardly acts. I mean, I’m only fifteen- this is all rather surreal to me in the sense that I am not even old enough to drive but that, because of my stance on preborn rights, I am expected to answer questions that require multidimmensional thinking. I like this, actually. It feels good to stretch one’s mind and terminate ignorance in an open forum with mostly like-minded individuals. Ah, communication and education- thy name is pro-life and pro-freedom!
pro-choice PIP: “So just curious, if abortion was illegal, what kind of punishment should be allotted to the woman v. abortionist?”
however it was pre-roe.. we weren’t dragging women off the street were we.
PIP,
when was the last time you defended a pro-life position?
I am heartened to see, Jacqueline that you reach out to many post abortive women. I also appreciate your brutal honesty.
My heart goes out to Sycloria because she paid to have her baby killed and in no way was prepared to see her daughter breathing and kicking and moving and put into a plastic bag to die. What 18 year old is ready for that?? She has a long road ahead and I am praying for her, not absolving her of any wrongdoing.
I didn’t want an abortion.
I didn’t want an abortion.
The women I talk to didn’t either- but just saw it as preferable to the alternative and what they anticipated losing.
I am heartened to see, Jacqueline that you reach out to many post abortive women. I also appreciate your brutal honesty.
It wasn’t intended to be brutal. I don’t want to kick anyone while they are down or assume that I understand even a bulk of the situations at play here- I just don’t think we have to choose between characterizing women in one of two negative ways.
My heart goes out to Sycloria because she paid to have her baby killed and in no way was prepared to see her daughter breathing and kicking and moving and put into a plastic bag to die.
Yeah- I get that she wasn’t prepared to actually look at her victim. That’s the whole premise behind our Texas ultrasound bill. People will do deplorable things as long as they remain detached.
What 18 year old is ready for that??
No one should ever see that.
She has a long road ahead and I am praying for her, not absolving her of any wrongdoing.
I just hope these groups helping her sue aren’t reinforcing that she’s just a victim and had no role in what happened. Pro-lifers do that.
“I cannot tell, PrettyinPink, if your comment was one of general curiosity as a pro-life supporter or intrigue as a pro-choice supporter.”
Unlike what jasper likes to tell you all, I’m a feminist for life, but I am well aware that there are disagreements on specifics. FFL for the most part support decriminalization or a similar smaller punishment for women due to the circumstances that might lead to her wanting the abortion. The question was one of general curiosity.
Jasper, in case you need me to spell it out for you, I was asking Jacqueline for an opinion in which there is disagreement within the movement. You seem to think all pro-lifers are the same, for some reason.
And Jacqueline thank you for your answer. I thinkt hat’s a pretty fair position.
I was asking Jacqueline for an opinion in which there is disagreement within the movement. You seem to think all pro-lifers are the same, for some reason.
And Jacqueline thank you for your answer. I thinkt hat’s a pretty fair position.
Thanks! That’s one of the fabulous things at Feminists for Life- we can have disagreements on peripheral issues and it doesn’t stop of from still working together to help women. We can disagree and still all be proud members!
That’s right :)
“Jasper, in case you need me to spell it out for you, I was asking Jacqueline for an opinion in which there is disagreement within the movement. You seem to think all pro-lifers are the same, for some reason. ”
Ok, that makes sense PIP, sorry about that.
Pro-lifers do that.
I, for one, do not. Jacqueline, I still do not understand your need to make sure Secloria understands she is a baby killer. She knows. And yes it sounds exactly like you want to kick her when she’s down.
I can hardly believe I am having this conversation with a prolifer.
I can hardly believe I am having this conversation with a prolifer. Judging by the silence on this thread maybe there are more of you that think exactly like Jacqueline??
I probably don’t count, but I don’t think like Jacqueline. But then I have this useless heart that bleeds for everyone. A while back a young man from my general area died in the process of robbing a store. That just made me cry and cry. I cried because he robbed the store, I cried because he was killed.
I don’t think he was coerced into stealing. He wasn’t mentally ill to my knowledge, and no one had a gun to his head. He knew what he was doing. But oh, what a sad life he must have had, to knowingly do something like that. What a sad death, at your lowest and most miserable and most desperate point. How badly I wished he’d never felt it worth his while to steal things, and how badly I wished that he’d survived it so that he could eventually experience better things.
Sometimes I think that the fact that people are not just manipulated by external influences — the fact that they willfully choose to do awful things — is cause for more sympathy, not less. How desperate do you have to be to think that doing something that hurts yourself and others is your best option? How miserable? How hopeless?
That’s OK, Jasper.
Of course you count dear Alexandra. :)
I have always been sensitive. Told I was “too sensitive” all of my life. Can’t help it. My heart hurts for us all at times.
I loved your comment.
I, for one, do not. Jacqueline, I still do not understand your need to make sure Secloria understands she is a baby killer. She knows. And yes it sounds exactly like you want to kick her when she’s down.
Okay- once again you completely missed what I said and anything other than “post-abortive women are innocent victims” is misunderstood as cruel. You and everyone else believe this blanket generalization because it’s more palatable than other explanations—but just because something is nicer and easier to believe doesn’t make it true. I want to beleive a lot of generalization to make reality less harsh, like “child abusers love their children and just need education on how to properly discipline” but it doesn’t mean that this is entirely true. It’s the same for women that choose abortion. Sidewalk counsel for any length of time and you’ll come to the conclusion that it is simply not so sweet and simple. It’s easier to point at me and and say, “Nooooooooo…Women victims, only abortionists bad…Jacque mean” when even logic says that for each woman who is victimized by an abortionist, that same woman had to cooperate in some way. This reality, while not fun to hear, is conveinently ignored by people that would much rather cover their ears and hum so they can continue to think the best of people, whether it’s true or not.
Sidewalk counseling broke my delusion. I have seen too many “me first” attitudes to continue to think women are not fully responsible for their choices. Trust me, I WANT to beleive like you. I simply can’t and still be intellectually honest. I talked to too many women who knew exactly what they were doing and were doing it anyway- so I can’t keep up the warm and fuzzy lie that the abortionists are the wicked ones and women are just pawns. I talked to too many women who rattled off a list of circumstances so dire that it meant that their baby MUST die, only to see those that changed their mind opt to parent rather than place for adoption- in so many cases, it’s all about her and whether she “wants” the baby or not. Apparently those circumstances so serious that women feel forced to kill their babies are not serious enough to merit placing the child for adoption.
By the way, working in adoption did the same thing to me. Until I saw the implicit coercion of women considering adoption because the attitude of the self-righteous caseworker was that these financially stable couples deserved a baby and the young biological mother did not, when I saw the pain that women endure to place for adoption when help is available to keep that family together- I dropped my happy delusion about adoption being the rosy alternative to abortion. It’s a better choice, but still painful, and not the answer that pro-lifers make it out to be.
It’s really easy to label me as a bad prolifer with no compassion so you can continue to feel great about yourselves and your bleeding hearts, but I only came to my conclusions after years of work in the trenches. And when I realized that I couldn’t delude myself anymore- did I stop? No…I’m still in this all the same.
Trust me- it’s not comfortable or fun knowing the truth in many instances, and my life would be better if I kept thinking in certain “pro-life” boxes: i.e. Adoption wonderful! Women are only victims! My life would be better, in part, because I wouldn’t have people making incorrect judgements about me because it’s easier than accepting the possibility that I might actually be right.
Never said you were a bad prolifer. Sounds like you are one of those fried out teachers that needs to do herself and her students a favor and retire.
I am not wrong for offering comfort to those who need it so desperately and reach out to me for it.
This reality, while not fun to hear, is conveinently ignored by people that would much rather cover their ears and hum so they can continue to think the best of people, whether it’s true or not.
Who do you think is doing this? I admit I often try to think the best of people, but it doesn’t mean I cover my ears and hum. I think it’s possible to see the worst in people and still think the best of them.
Never said you were a bad prolifer. Sounds like you are one of those fried out teachers that needs to do herself and her students a favor and retire.
You’re right. I think I’ll cease saving babies immediately!
Who do you think is doing this? I admit I often try to think the best of people, but it doesn’t mean I cover my ears and hum. I think it’s possible to see the worst in people and still think the best of them.
That’s true. Only I am not looking for the worst in people, as you both are implying. I’m saying that you can’t act like women aren’t accountable for their own choices just because thinking women stupid and too weak to defend themselves or their babies is preferable to thinking that they might actually choose to abort of their own free will. It’s not one or the other, but it’s uncomfortable for certain people to even consider that women might have 2 brain cells to rub together.
It’s easier and nicer to always assume the best, and I do. But acting as though their is no alternative is just a way to stay in the cushy little bubble and to act holier-than-thou towards those of us who help the vulnerable no-matter-what the circumstance.
I never said women aren’t accountable for the part they play in abortions. I don’t think women are stupid or weak. Some are deceived and vulnerable and some are forced and coerced to do something they never wanted to do. But they did.
Some absolutely know what they are doing and do it. I have anguish of soul over them as well. Satan is The Deceiver. So where does that leave us? Making sure they KNOW they are baby killers I guess. Believe me there is nothing you can say to a post abortive woman that she hasn’t already said to herself.
Yes. You continue to help the vulnerable and so will I. No matter what the circumstance.
Carla,
You’d much rather me exit the movement than peer out of your comfort zone for a moment? Ask yourself how keeping the ability to think you are a bubbling fount of compassion and better than I am benefits women and children?
Ask yourself how your hardness of heart and contempt benefits women and children?
I’m saying that you can’t act like women aren’t accountable for their own choices just because thinking women stupid and too weak to defend themselves or their babies is preferable to thinking that they might actually choose to abort of their own free will.
Again, who is doing this? I have only discussed men who are fully aware that they’re stealing, women who are fully aware that they’re aborting. People who do destructive things knowing full well what they’re doing. I’m not really sure who you’re arguing against.
I do appreciate your passion and your work, and I definitely know what you mean about having a hardened opinion after seeing things with your own eyes. I find the world exhausting, sometimes.
I am not better than anyone. After all I am a baby killer.
Making sure they KNOW they are baby killers I guess.
I never said that. Did I say that?
Ask yourself how your hardness of heart and contempt benefits women and children?
My heart is not hard and I’m not contemptuous. You are not listening, or don’t understand, or are hypersensitive, or a myriad of other things I can’t begin to understand.
But painting me as not compassionate isn’t farther from the truth- I don’t see any call for it other than it makes you feel really good about yourself, like you are somehow defending women from me, when all I’ve ever done is offer compassion and assistance.
I am going to stop this before it devolves any further, because you have really hurt my feelings and I apparently have hurt yours if you think I have judged you in any way. I haven’t.
Apparently we agree, because your post at 11:37 is EXACTLY what I’m saying: that it’s not one or the other. Furthermore, whatever a person’s motivation for abortion is, they are still damaged and need help all the same. In most cases, thinking themselves a baby killer is the last thing they need to further oppress them- and I would never suggest that. Besides, its irrelevant. Someone could cut themselves and think all day long that cutting themselves was a good thing—we still stop the bleeding. Now, there does come a point where people have to accept cause and effect, that the cause (abortion) gave the effect (pain), in order for them to not hurt themselves again- but that is not priority one. Likewise, I don’t care how many times someone cuts themselves, you do not withhold good when it is within your power to act.
I do appreciate your passion and your work, and I definitely know what you mean about having a hardened opinion after seeing things with your own eyes.
That’s sweet, Alexandria. Thank you.
My question is, is it a hardened opinion if it’s true. My work in adoption for example opened my eyes to see both the best and worst of it, and now I am very careful whom I trust with an adoption referral. This can be seen as cynical or hardened- but the truth sucks. I’d much rather know the hard truth and act accordingly to remaining ignorant and blissful, especially when ignorance is at the expense of innocent people.
Read your comment again at 2:17pm yesterday. I just couldn’t let it go without addressing it. I am sorry I have hurt you. And yes, I let your comments hurt me.
I just did- and I can see where that would incense people. I need to be more careful.
I could explain it, but it’s probably better not to, since I am apparently not communicating well and it’s not like it really matters.
I am sorry I hurt your feelings, Carla. I need to be more careful with my words, or better yet, determine whether or not something even should be said at all.
I just realized that I would have said the same thing to me if the tables were turned. If someone wrote what I wrote, I’d say, “So what- how do we help her now?” In fact, I think I did say that on another thread, the one with baby Rowan, where someone said something similar.
Please forgive me, Jacqueline.
Ain’t no thang! :)
:)
I’m getting very tired of killing of millions babies. The women that do this is very uncaring of them selves and there body and the baby that could be prevented in most cases.I figured how we stop this outrage is get more birth control in schools. show the women the dead bodies of the infants that it beening aborted. Is everything so expendable that we have to kill are own.I think that babies born alive in abortion clinics should be treated as such i think the mother of the baby should be told an should have option to see it or not.The abortist don’t want people to know that they don’t do there job of murder. The abortist are just in it for the money. Thanks to the women that abort they make more money them real dr. What is wrong with America that allow this. When do we start caring about the baby. There are bad thing that happen to women I’m sorry for that i wish that. I can help both women and children. why not give the babies up for adoption. we chose who we want on the earth. Why don’t the women that think that abortion is right pro-choice dare to look at http://www.abortiongallery.com look at the little people that we just throw away like trash. dare someone tell me it is right. I cry for the chosen children. They thought they was safe going servive with there mother.Then there life was token ends u in a silver bowl like trash that gets throw away. The Chosen
Reality, I don’t know if you’re still around (or if you’d been banned, but I thought I’d mention something.
This is a baby girl born prior to 22 weeks. She was SAVED. She was given lifesaving measures and now she is at home with her family. Perhaps the same could have been done for Shanice if she hadn’t been stuffed in a bag and thrown on a roof.
This debate is possibly over, but I understand what you are saying to be true, both Carla and Jacqueline. Carla is correct- women don’t need to be treated poorly and kicked out if they make mistakes. But so, too, is it correct to say that women ought to be held accountable for their actions. Women, yes, were under a lot of pressure, but, no, they are not excused simply for their circumstances. If we were to treat women as helpless or as so good that the law ought not to apply, then we are only doing all of us (mostly women on this commentary!) a crime. Women ought not to be treated differently because of gender. But that is exactly why we need to work together and understand each others arguments rather than languish because of miscommunication amongst each other- when we argue that women ought to be sent to prison for the crimes that they commit, then the pro-choice movement labels us as anti-women punishment freaks. But when we argue that they ought not to be sent to prison, then they paint us as weak and refusing to acknowledge women in the law. We cannot win. And we will not be able to debate anyone who is pro-choice until we understand clearly that women are not making the decision to abort their childen lightly and, yes, the prime criminal is the federation of neo-Nazis, but that women who allow this to happen are guilty and deserve a trial just like anyone else, male or female, who has committed a heinous act.
P.S.
I don’t know if PrettyinPink is still reading this, but I realized that my answer to your question yesterday sounded quite like an accusation. Sorry about that. I didn’t mean to sound as though I was snapping at you. You brought up a good question.
So the millions upon millions of women who have aborted their children should be put on trial Vannah?
That would be a lot of trials! I think that it should be handled just as any other crime should be handled and I do NOT advocate treating women poorly at all. I just think that we ought to hold women in the same manner that we hold men. But, yes, I would hope that most of these women would receive justice fitting their crime. I would be the first one to speak out if they were punished excessively, and I would also hope with all my heart that women who have had abortions while the procedure was still legal would NOT be put on trial. No woman who did this and feels as much regret as she feels ought to be tormented and seen as a monster. This is different from rape or other crimes in the sense that motives are different. If there is any part of pro-life that I am indifferent to, it is the level of stereotyping women as monsters who could have had any other option in the world. I’ve never met any woman who’s had an abortion. But, perhas this sounds cheesy, I don’t hate them at all. I cannot bring myself to feel angry at them. I just want to hug them when I read about them because it is as though all of humanity is shining through- the glory of new life and the destruction of poverty and bigotry (not from the woman, bigotry from the clinic; I doubt that there really is a woman who’s bigoted against her child)- in one and I think that postabortive women deserve to be treated like anyone, but that unlike other “criminals,” postabortive women did not commit the crimes that they committed because they were monsters. I try to think about love, really. Again, my inner hippie is cooing, but…no one ought to be tormented for all of eternity for crimes that they did not want to commit and at the same time events that they would give anything to undue. God, I know, can still love the twisted murderer, so He can love those who murder because someone twisted them. To remain fair, women (after abortion is illegal) ought to be treated the same, but we ought to know that the law isn’t in existence to be a tyrannical iron hand- it is here to help. There is no more just law than listening to women and understanding what they’ve been through and deciding what to do then in the manner that helps woman and finds justice for child. But maybe…that’d be easier if women who felt in over their heads were told before the vacuum told them differently…that they weren’t alone in the world.
Hi Vannah,
My name is Carla and I had an abortion on September 5th, 1990. It was the worst mistake of my life and I will regret it until the day I die and get to heaven to be with Aubrey.
Here is my story
http://ravingatheist.com/2009/02/walking-with-aubrey