Hialeah copycat
Recalling the July 2006 story of the abortion survivor zipped moving and breathing into a biohazard bag at a Hialeah, FL, abortion mill, read this from Fox News, February 27:
A University of AZ sophomore was arrested and charged with attempted first-degree murder and child abuse, Wednesday, after she gave birth to an infant in a communal university shower hall and then placed the child in a plastic bag….
Sarah Tatum, 19, who allegedly hid her pregnancy from the other students in her dorm, telling them that she had been gaining weight due to a thyroid problem, was discovered by two of her hallmates in the shower hall… with a bag of what they thought were bloody clothes….
When the pair looked more closely at the bag, however, they realized that it was moving and that Tatum had placed her child inside.
“The plastic bag was the kind with the draw string on top,” said Jaime Perez, a… freshman, who… is a close friend of one of the hallmates who found Tatum. “She tied the bag so tight that the policeman had to cut it with a knife.”
Added the AZ Daily Wildcat today…
When officers arrived… they asked Tatum if she had been bleeding. She said she had a bloody nose earlier in the shower, but she was fine now, the report said.
When an officer walked toward a “large lump on the floor” Tatum said she had a miscarriage and had been about six months pregnant, according to police.
Tatum was charged with first-degree attempted murder and child abuse after police determined she had given birth to a 7-pound boy and put him in a plastic bag, according to an interim complaint filed in Pima County Justice Court.
A University Medical Center official said that, as of Sunday afternoon, the baby remained in critical condition.
And more from the AZ Daily Wildcat, February 27:
When police cut open the bag the full term 7-pound baby boy was “gasping for air.”…
After birth, the baby was left in the bag, along with Tatum’s dirty clothes, for at least 2 hours, according to a UMC physician who was referenced in the complaint. The doctor said the baby was suffering from hypoxia, or oxygen deprivation.
Then there’s this lovely rationalization, a letter in the AZ Wildcat today:
… [T]here is a good possibility that Tatum hails from a conservative family – with parents who she may have been afraid to go to for help and guidance in a situation of this nature. It is all too common for conservatives to disown their daughters when they become pregnant at a young age, or when they may come to the conclusion that the best choice would be the termination of the pregnancy….
… [L]et this tragedy serve as a reminder to all that the freedom of choice is supposed to prevent atrocities such as this. But who could make a decision like this one without the love and support of their parents?…
The writer, DaniellaTrimble, has got to be kidding. She assumes Sarah Tatum’s parents are “conservative,” and this somehow drove “terrified” Tatum not to abort but to try instead to suffocate her newborn baby?
Trimble theorizes “the freedom of choice is supposed to prevent atrocities such as this.” However, an unintended consequence of abortion is the desensitization of killing born children, as both Tatum and Trimble demonstrated.
[Photo courtesy of East Valley Tribune]

Dear Lord. I can hardly bear anymore of these stories!!
I love how she just randomly says that this happened because of conservative parents. If only dear Tatum had loving, liberal parents who would take her to kill her child she wouldn’t have to…try to kill her child.
Of course, there’s no evidence at all that her parents wouldn’t have been supportive of their daughter, but it’s always better to demonize conservatives instead of the girl who stuffed her baby in a platic bag.
Agreed. Because we all know that conservatives disown their children for mistakes at every possible opportunity, are intolerant of every infraaction and patently refuse to allow the birth of a child conceived out of wedlock.
Us pro-life conservatives are indeed a bunch of monsters.
Gimme a frikkin’ break.
I agree that the writer’s rationalization was a bit melodramatic, but @ Mike’s comment:
If you had staunchly conservative parents, who tried to teach you that pre-marital sex was a sin, never permitted birth control as a minor and by default, may not have had explicit conversation on sexual behavior/mores in the house…
Why would you be so incredulous to believe that a teen daughter of such a family would NOT come to them if she did become pregnant on accident, and make potentially disastrous decisions on her own? Children make children’s decisions (yes, 19 is a child in my eyes). My own stepsister hid a teen pregnancy for six months when we were growing up, because she was scared s—less of what her mother would think and she was brought up to wait for marriage. Luckily she broke down and confessed (could’t really hide it anymore) but it could’ve ended up a lot worse if she wasn’t convinced she’d have support at home. I think that was the (poorly) articulated point of the writer’s commentary.
It is not “random.” It is calculated spin. In the mind of liberals, every story that reflects negatively on the All Abortion All the Time Any Time crowd is the fault of conservatives.
Yet sane people know just where the fault lies. It is at the feet of liberal academics who have spent years training young people that rats are higher on the “respect” list that babies. Babies are merely a bag of stem cells until the mother decides it is a baby and that baby takes its first breath.
As we all know, charges have never been upheld in the deliberate death of a baby before its first breath. It is simply called an involuntary miscarriage.
How many liberal parents have driven their daughters straight to the clinic forcing their daughters into an unwanted abortion?
If this is what abortion is supposed to prevent, I guess it’s not working out so well.
This poor little soul. Abortion has promoted this type of behavior by making the unborn seem disposable. It’s just sick, sick, sick.
I am with Carla. I can’t bear it anymore.
Mike, yeah we sure are!
That’s why my pro-life, conservative mother in law made my wedding dress…it was all a clever manipulation to show her hatred and disown her son.
My liberal mother’s response was to slide dramatically down a wall.
Who was showing real encouragement?
Sandy’s reponse is just as bad as the woman’s (Trimble) who wrote the letter. It is wrong to assume the conservative parents would disown her. And it’s wrong to assume the liberal parents would force her to have an abortion.
And let me amend my own point above…asitis brings up a good duality. The same loss of support could be percieved by a child who is pro-life with pro-choice parents. Which, I must admit, would be a tremendous challenge for me if I were a parent of someone old enough to get pregnant/get someone pregnant. Just hope I’m never faced with it!
Danielle, are you saying you would have a hard time supporting your child’s decision to not have an abortion? I am pro-choice as well, and to me that doesn’t mean the choice has to be (or even should be) abortion. Isn’t that how it is for you too? Or are you really “pro-abort” as these folks like to say.
Give me a break! I have very conservative Catholic parents who made it clear we shouldn’t have sex before marriage. When my sister found out she was pregnant, unwed and 18, she 1) TOLD MY PARENTS 2) My parents (those conservatives that kids are supposed to be afraid of) told her that they would support her if she wanted to keep the baby or give it up for adoption. She did give the baby up for adoption through a Catholic adoption group and has never regretted her decision.
That poor baby, I hope he makes it through this Ok.
How about we throw her in a sealed bag and see how she likes it.
I wish there were more Catholic parents out there like yours, Kristen. I’m getting the 40 days for Life daily emails and I read a heartbreaking story where there was a CATHOLIC taking her daughter for an abortion. So sad! The “Grandmother” rejected some literature from a man just because he was a Baptist minister…but the literature most likely was about fetal development or services that the pregnancy center provided.
Man, Central Texas is flooded with abortion clinics. I knew of several of them, but apparantly there are even more. Listen to this disgusting quote from the clinic I was at today.
“Balancing education, employment, relationships, motherhood, and families is extremely challenging in our society and that unwanted pregnancies needlessly complicate this picture”
Lord help us all. The clinic I was at is run by a husband/wife team. I bet they’re a blast a parties.
Liz, thanks. I’m sure it was hard for my sister to go to them and for them to hear it but they never wavered. Really I don’t know any parent who would not support their child through a pregnancy. It’s been a topic of much discussion among my friends lately. Some did say they would have a hard time if their child gave the baby up for adoption.
My sister is now married with one baby. It’s been 15-16 years since her first pregnancy and she still thinks she made the right decision.
Also, a clinic in Austin is advertising “no wait” abortions, despite the fact that Texas law requires a 24 hour waiting period between when information is given and when the abortion actually takes place. I wonder how the get around that one?
Sorry, I know I keep commenting, but this is just almost too much.
http://www.wholewomanshealth.com/austin/austin_private_abortion.html
They offer “VIP abortions”
Are you kidding me?
Kristen I don’t know any parent either who would not support their pregnant child either, whatever their choice is. Not that I know of anyway. I couldn’t imagine telling my child they had to abort, keep the baby or put up for adoption. Ultimately it is their decision and as parents we should be giving them our love and support.
Hey, the “Hialeah method” is much cheaper than an abortion, and in Florida apparently carries no risk of being charged with any crime. So naturally, there would be copy cats. Only time will tell if AZ authorities will actually prosecute her.
asitis,
what should this woman recieve?
As a journalist, I can say this writer was editorializing, which is a huge no no. As a human being, I can say that I’m very saddened by this story. On a college campus, there are so many professionals to go to for counseling and support whose job it is to just listen. At my school there were nurses at the health center you could always talk to, plus psychologists, even a dorm RA*. My sorority advisor became a confidant, just as an example. It’s so sad she felt she had to keep her pregnancy a secret and then did what she did.
*I already expect someone is going to shoot back that on our crazy liberal campuses these people would tell her to have an abortion. But the fact is, there are many ears to listen if you have a problem, and many different perspectives.
She should recieve whatever the punishment is for first degree murder and child abuse is jasper, wouldn’t you agree?
lauren- just clicked on your abortion link….OMG!
“Discounts
We are able to offer a small discount to students, Medicaid recipients, and military personnel and their families. Please let us know if you’d like to take advantage of one of these discounts, so we can have you bring the appropriate identification to your appointment.”
Are effing kidding me? This website looks like they’re trying to sell some miracle diet product…..I bet they get a lot of women who come in from this website alone.
sorry “attempted” first degree murder. If there’s a difference with regards to the punishment…..
That’s why I’m suprised AM to hear this happen on a college campus, where resources and support of all kind are available. Maybe she was in extreme denial of her pregnancy?
Ok, now back to this baby. I’m glad it has survived so far. But it will have a long road ahead of it! 2 hours with minimal oxygen, its a miracle this baby is in critical condition.
Baby….I’m praying that you recover and will get a home worthy of you.
Krystal, I know!
Did you notice they give you a gift basket, and a special mug with herbal tea.
Just what everyone needs, a trinket from the day they killed their baby.
This place is just weird. Although, I’m not sure if it’s worse than this one…
http://www.theabortionprovider.com
This is where I was today, and from the site it really seems like they’re, how shall we put this, “not nice.”
Lord have mercy on all of us!
Sandy’s reponse is just as bad as the woman’s (Trimble) who wrote the letter. It is wrong to assume the conservative parents would disown her. And it’s wrong to assume the liberal parents would force her to have an abortion.
Posted by: asitis at March 2, 2009 2:57 PM
asitis,
My question was meant to be glib in response to the article. But in reality we all know this happens don’t we???
The majority of abortions happen because women are forced physically or emotionally by those who won’t offer any support so these women may carry to term.
I spoke to a clinic worker who told me they see parents ALL THE TIME who bring in their daughters for abortions they don’t want.
She told me a story that a couple came in with their daughter who clearly did not want to abort.
The clinic worker in this case told them it was up to their daughter to decide. The parents remained adament they go ahead with the procedure. They were willing to pay more money to have their daughter drugged so she would comply.
If I were to have an abortion I couldn’t imagine leaving the office with some ‘gifts’ aka reminders for the rest of my life! How…..man I cannot even think of a word for this….I’m gonna check out the other link you sent me.
Hey do you have a blog or anything?
Lauren….going to the other website I clicked on “Texas Law” & this is what I read…..
“The risks of carrying a pregnancy to term are far greater than having an abortion.”
I’m about ready to puke and curse to the ground!!
Lauren,
I just clicked the web-site you posted. I wonder what’s included in the post abortion care basket?
This is just sick.
I knew a girl who wanted to get an abortion to get away from her abusive boyfriend. I talked on the phone to her for three hours. She went through with it and invited me to a park to let some white doves go to honor her baby. Sorry. Couldn’t make it. I wept that whole day.
Sorry for posting so much……..
“Being a conscientious parent requires making tough decisions at times, like undergoing an abortion.”
Yes, I love you enough to kill you….isn’t this called mercy killings or something like that? I don’t know but this website is like a soup mix of bad information.
The majority of abortions happen because women are forced physically or emotionally by those who won’t offer any support so these women may carry to term.
Posted by: Sandy at March 2, 2009 4:29 PM
Really Sandy? The majority of abortions are performed against the woman’s wishes? Can you back this up?
Krystal, I used to, but then blogger locked me out of it. The site is http://mychoice-hislife.blogspot.com
I haven’t posted there in over a year though. I do have a facebook, I sent you a friend request.
I forgot to tell you guys some AWESOME news.
I called a maternity home in the area today to ask if I could give out their name as a resource to any women entering the abortion clinic.
They told me that they would make room for any woman who needed it! It feels so great to be able to tell women that I have a place that will give them a home!
Of course, I didn’t actually see any women today because I was working the 10-11 shift and they were all already in, but I plan to go earlier tomorrow.
found ya!
Asitis 4:23PM
This is highly likely. I don’t know how many times we have had women come into the ER complaining of cramping, only to have us tell them they are in labor.
Many will even insist they never had relations with a man.
This prompted an ER doctor to tell me to go outside and look for a star in the East.
One strange account I heard was of an educated, highly intellligent woman who screamed on the delivery table that she was not pregnant, until she delivered.
The other extreme is the woman who is adamant she is pregnant, and has all the symptons, and you have to convince her she is not.
I have no answers for this, only that the human mind is a very strange thing.
I knew a pregnant college girl who arranged an adoption and her parents never knew of her baby. She took advantage of resources available to her. Why this young woman didn’t is anyone’s guess. Same with Amy Grossman who was indicted along with her boyfriend for killing their son. A discreet adoption could have been easily arranged.
I know Mary, it’s so sad. I mean, it’s not like this woman was in some remote rural area or under someone’s control such that she couldn’t get help. It was all right there for her.
Asitis,
Are you not the least big disgusted by this? Are you not the least bit heartsick that a 7 pound baby boy(all of my 3 sons weighed 7 lbs.)was delivered and struggled to breathe for 2 hours in a plastic bag? Would it kill ya to admit that this story sickens or saddens you??
I have friends who were forced to abort. Why is this so hard to believe without stats??
Danielle, are you saying you would have a hard time supporting your child’s decision to not have an abortion? I am pro-choice as well, and to me that doesn’t mean the choice has to be (or even should be) abortion. Isn’t that how it is for you too? Or are you really “pro-abort” as these folks like to say.
Posted by: asitis at March 2, 2009 3:14 PM
-I’m saying I don’t know what I would do but I know it would be hard not to take a very hard line and personify the very fear that we’re discussing. My feelings about choice, ironically, are influenced greatly by whether or not the girl in question is a child. Age 19 is iffy…but, younger than that? I don’t know. I struggle with this. I don’t know if I could let a child of mine have a baby. Sorry. If that makes me pro-abort, then, yeah, I am, if you’re a child.
A child of yours having a baby would be having your grandchild. A child of yours aborting a baby would be killing your grandchild.
Carla, of course this case sickens me!!!!! How could it not? It goes without saying.
As for people being forced to abort: I don’t doubt that happens. People are forced into doing all kinds of things against there will. What I am questioning is her claim that the majority of abortions are forced.
Danielle, you sound like my mother. She is a highschool counselor. She told me that if I got pregnant in highschool, she would force me to have an abortion or kick me out of the house.
It never happened, but it definitely wasn’t “pro-choice.”
I wanted to hear you say it, asitis. I am glad we can agree. Since most of the PC on this thread have been quiet about their feelings on this poor baby boy it doesn’t really go without saying. They just aren’t saying.
Carla, I don’t know if you’ve ever mentioned this or not, but when you had your abortion were there sidewalk counselors outside?
Abortion proponents- where are you when these stories are posted? Can you express any outrage at all, for the little baby in this story? I never seem to see anything like that in you people, and don’t understand that. How can you see a story like this and not be totally outraged and horrified, and express that. Are you so desensitized that you cannot see even a born child as being worthy of life, or consider this type of story to be a horrible tragedy?
Oops, I never saw Carla’s posts before I wrote mine. I was on and off as I wrote this post.
arla, of course this case sickens me!!!!! How could it not? It goes without saying
No, it doesn’t. You support a baby this size being murdered in the womb legally. It makes no sense for you to be horrified just because the baby made it outside before being nearly suffocated.
And that’s why we have to ask the question.
Danielle, you sound like my mother. She is a highschool counselor. She told me that if I got pregnant in highschool, she would force me to have an abortion or kick me out of the house.
It never happened, but it definitely wasn’t “pro-choice.”
Posted by: lauren at March 2, 2009 5:14 PM
I sound like MY mother. I got the same speech. Fortunately for both of us I never tested the waters and came out unscathed. I can’t speak as a mother, but I do understand her point of view. 10% of me struggles with it, 90% agrees.
Hi Carla,
This situation is heartrending. I wish there was an answer, a way to stop this. There are women who have absolutely no capacity for maternal bonding. A baby will be nothing more than an object to them. This goes against everything we want to believe concerning motherhood, but sadly is true.
There was a case of a mother who shot her three children. Turned out this woman loved being pregnant, she was a surrogate, and was pregnant several times. She would become pregnant just for the sake of being pregnant.
However, her children were nothing more than objects, the distasteful outcome of the pregnancies she so enjoyed.
A woman in denial of a pregnancy may view her child as just that, an object. There may also be underlying mental pathology, such as major personality disorder, as the woman I mentioned here was determined to have.
Tragically, in both these situations, it was the children that paid the price.
Danielle, so really it isn’t a matter of choice with you, but rather a belief that abortion is the only correct option in some situations?
Lauren,
No, there weren’t. I wish to God that there had been!! But I have made a vow to myself that someday I WILL stand outside Meadowbrook in Minneapolis where I had mine and be a sidewalk counselor.
Mary, how awful. I heard from my friend that this girl who lives nearby me has been reading these weird romantic novels where the woman is pregnant, and this woman is attractive as a result of her being pregnant (Or something like that). My friend found these romantic novels all over her room.
This girl gets pregnant all of the time, then leaves her disabled mother (who takes 10 minutes to get to the bathroom in her wheelchair), and disabled father to take care of all of the children she produces. Her parents eventually realized they were incapable of taking care of all of them (she now has four and is about 5 months pregnant with the 5th) and the children were taken away by child protective services.
This girl just has the babies, leaves them, and doesn’t care a bit about what happens to them. She even lives there at her parents house with the children but she just stays on the computer all day and never pays any attention to them.
Now the woman I talked to about it is having to raise 2 of the children, and 2 are in another home. I don’t know what will happen to the other baby, but if they would let me take him or her I would.
What is wrong with a mother that would make her lose the instinct to love and protect her children like that? I just can’t fathom it. I don’t understand it. It defies nature.
Carla, I wish there had been too!
That’s why I’m glad we’re doing 40 days for life. Hopefully it will get more people out in front of the clinics!
Bethany did I say I support the aborting of a 7lb, 9 month old fetus?
Did you ever say you did not support it?
I mean, it’s obvious that you support abortion. You never said you had a limit. When do you think abortion should not be the woman’s choice?
Bethany did I say I support the aborting of a 7lb, 9 month old fetus?
Posted by: asitis at March 2, 2009 5:42 PM
***************************************
Okay, I’m curious. At what point in gestation does abortion become “not okay” to you? At what point would you no longer support it?
Bethany,
What a sad situation. This young woman sounds like she enjoys pregnancy, but not the responsiblity that comes with it. These are the ones who always seem best able to produce babies by the dozen!
I am convinced that certain women are simply not capable of any kind of maternal bonding or love. For those of us with children, that is hard to fathom.
My father had a major personality disorder that rendered him totally incapable of parenting. His weapon against his children was mental abuse and fear.
He had absolutely no capacity to love or nuture his children.
I have read that personality disordered people should never be parents for this reason. However, these might just be the type who view children as a means to satisfy other needs, such as a desire to be pregnant.
LOL, Bethany. Sorry, I didn’t see your post there before I posted. :D
I will rejoin you with my later. I’m off to babysit at the Mother’s and INfant’s home!
Danielle, you sound like my mother. She is a highschool counselor. She told me that if I got pregnant in highschool, she would force me to have an abortion or kick me out of the house.
It never happened, but it definitely wasn’t “pro-choice.”
Posted by: lauren at March 2, 2009 5:14 PM
I sound like MY mother. I got the same speech. Fortunately for both of us I never tested the waters and came out unscathed. I can’t speak as a mother, but I do understand her point of view. 10% of me struggles with it, 90% agrees.
Posted by: Danielle at March 2, 2009 5:24 PM
Sounds like my mom, too. (Funny thing is now she denies ever having said it.)
I talk with Alison (and Joey more and more as he gets older) about this very thing all the time. When I have girls come in to the Peds ER who are getting pregnancy tested and STD tested at ages 14-17 it provides a good opening for me to chat with her (in the context of “you would not believe what last night was like at work!”)
Then again, this is the same girl who wears a shirt to school that says, “Tell me again why you think I need a boyfriend.” She is very focused on her goals and, with six younger siblings, is fully aware that sex leads to babies and to lots of work. I remember when the Baby Borrowers came out last year and she was watching the promos… all the girls exclaiming how ready they were for parenthood. She was laughing SO hard. She hears girls at school say it, too… how they’d love to have a baby who would “love” them… she says girls like that are “Nuts!” and that they don’t realize that “Babies scream out of one end and poop out the other!” I do have to say that I think watching five (soon to be six) labors and deliveries have probably been good birth control (as well as bonding her closely to her younger siblings.)
Anyway, Alison knows that if she does choose to have sex and does end up pregnant, she can come to me. She knows that abortion won’t be on the table, and she is very pro-life (she loves when we do the 3d/4d ultrasounds and she gets to see her latest siblings faces and hair and so on) and she also knows that I would either help her raise her child or help her choose an adoptive family (or raise the child myself, if she chose)… and that I would love her not one whit less. She also knows that had she been conceived two years before she was… it would have been her life in jeopardy as I would have been pressured and potentially forced into an abortion I never would have wanted.
It’s okay, Kel….I do the same thing all the time. I have a feeling neither of us are going to hear a direct answer to our question.
In response to Ms Trimble’s assertion that a conservative upbringing may inspire infanticide:
I live in Alabama and was raised Southern Baptist, so I’m speaking from the position of someone who grew up surrounded by some of the most conservative people in our nation. Throughout my church attendance, our congregation experienced five teenage, out-of-wedlock pregnancies. One of these teenagers was the pastor’s daughter. Not only were the families of these girls understanding and supportive, but the entire church was compassionate and helpful. I never heard a negative word uttered about these girls; only words of encouragement.
I suppose Ms Trimble couldn’t resist the opportunity to smear conservatism with one huge, erroneous brush stroke. It’s a bit sad that someone would use the attempted murder of a baby to villify at least half of the families in this country.
I guess evolution still has not worked out all the kinks, at least where humans are concerned.
You would expect that the evolutionary process would not produce a female who is physically mature enough to conceive, who would not be emotionally mature enough to be a mother.
Other female mamals who are old enough to conceive seem to have no difficulty caring for their offspring.
Why do we set the expectation bar higher for animals than we do for humans?
On a related topic.
What do you think would happen to me if I put a puppy or a kitten in a plastic bag to suffocate and the local ASPCA found out about it?
Even if the little furry critter was birthed prematurely, do you think I would be cut any slack by the judicial system?
Even given that fact that the United States is overpopulated with dogs and cats, do you think I would receive any mercy?
There is a ‘duality’ to consider.
“If the world was logical, it would be men who ride side saddle.”
The late great Paul Harvey.
yor bro ken
ps: You could substitute ‘God’ for ‘evolution’ if that better fits your worldview, but the question would still remain: Why do we humans lower the bar of expectation?
And we wonder why cases like this (in the original posting) occur.
Might it just POSSIBLY be the fact that radical feminists are brainwashing the youth of today into believing that having children (at any age) ruins lives, that babies are inconvenient, a bother, bad for the economy, and DISPOSABLE at will ??? That motherhood is passe, NOT FUN, and an enormous drain on one’s bank account and lifestyle? That sex outside of marriage is really no big deal, because you can just get an abortion if you get pregnant?
The girl in this story needs to be tried for attempted MURDER. You can’t tell me that a second year college student doesn’t have the brains to seek help for a crisis pregnancy in this country. She knew full well what she was doing.
“The risks of carrying a pregnancy to term are far greater than having an abortion.”
Some times true for the pregnant mother.
Never true for her human embryo/fetus.
yor bro ken
Hey, Bethany, ME ME ME look at ME! :) I’m pro-choice and I thought I made it clear that I’m HORRIFIED by this. I support abortion rights until the end of the first trimester. Viability is the line for me. I see this fully-delivered child as a complete, total 100% human being. I know I’m going to get jumped on for having arbitrary standards, and someone is going to tell me that a fetus is viable at 4 weeks or something. But that’s what I have always believed and always will. Point is, I will say it again, loud and clear, this is attempted murder- she gave BIRTH to this child and then tried to kill it. That is a lot different for me than her being in her second month of pregnancy, for example. She didn’t think of any other possible options.How did she get into college? I know that sounds like I’m joking but I do wonder…
AM: Now if we can just get you to believe and acknowledge that a pre-viable BABY is just as HUMAN as a viable one and every bit as deserving of protection and the right to be BORN.
“I see this fully-delivered child as a complete, total 100% human being.”
AM,
what percentage of human is a 2 month unborn child would you say? 50%? half human?
AM, I’m thankful to hear you express your horror on this topic. Maybe I missed your post earlier.
I think I understand your point about viability, but I would ask you 1.) when the point of viability is, and 2.) would you be supportive of legislation which would ban 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions?
I know I’m going to get jumped on for having arbitrary standards, and someone is going to tell me that a fetus is viable at 4 weeks or something. But that’s what I have always believed and always will.
Is it worth it to stick to what you’ve always believed no matter what, even if what you’ve always believed turns out to be wrong?
Bethany and Kel, sorry I wasn’t ignoring you. I was at a varsity hockey game cheering on one of my woefully unloved sons!
At what stage do I no longer support a woman’s right to choose? Why does that matter to you? No stage would be fine for you. I will tell you that for starters I fully support the use of the Pill and have no problem with it inhibiting implantation. In fact I have been using it successfully for 20 years and there’s a chance I have relaized an egg and it managed to meet up with a sperm and do to my own actions, it met an inhospitable uterine wall. I’m totally okay with that.So according to you, I’m evil simply for that. Why bother telling you any more?
Because you just said that you were horrified by this baby’s death. In order to be consistent, you could tell me whether you think it would be wrong to abort a baby the same size as long as it was still in the womb?
For the sake of being honest, Asitis. That’s the reason.
When all else fails- refuse to answer the question…
So according to you, I’m evil simply for that.
I don’t believe anyone here has ever called you evil, Asitis.
Ok, this is old and off topic news, but I was over at abortionclinicdays and I found this disgusting “prayer” they posted.
We stand here today as people of different faith traditions, but one in the presence of the Holy, surrounded by the love and goodness of the Divine. We understand that bricks and mortar, steel and glass are but temporary things, but that day by day, by our presence and the presence of the living God, they become infused with the spirit of all who walk through these doors.
May God bless these doors and all who pass through them.
May these doors offer a welcome passage to all who seek to understand the miracles of their own bodies, to all who strive to make healthy lifestyle and medical decisions, to all who look for honest answers to complex questions.
May these doors be for the professionals who work here a place of opportunity and challenge, a place to use their talents and develop new skills, a place to satisfy their innermost desires to be of holy service to others.
May these doors be held in safety against the evil desires of any forces that wish to do harm; may all who walk through these doors be filled with strength for overcoming whatever malevolence they face.
May these doors present to this community a symbol of care for the needs that are present in every human life, and may the community grow in its appreciation of and commitment to that care.
May these doors be to us all a vision of hope for our future and our children’s futures. As we celebrate 36 years of women having the right to make their own choices regarding motherhood, we pray for sound decisions throughout our nation that will continue to protect women’s choices.
God bless these doors and all who pass through them. Amen.
Rev. Rebecca Turner, Executive Director, Faith Aloud
Reprehensible.
no, maybe not to my face Bethany but I have heard what they have to say about people who believe as I do.
Bethany nice try. I’ve told you many times I’m not going there with you. You’ll just have to keep wondering what degree of evil I am.
Lauren,
Wow. Calling evil good and good evil.
Fulfills prophecy.
Bethany is not the only one that wonders about you asitis. I do not think you are evil. Neither does Bethany.
Carla, I agree. I never have thought she is evil. Aggravating at times? Makes me want to pull my hair out at times? Absolutely. Evil, no.
well you girls are sweet. Others…. Not so much. But hey I’m pro-choice, respected my beloved aunt’s wishes to end her life on her terms, and am on the pill so who am I to talk?
I would hope someday asitis you would feel safe enough to share what you seem to defend so adamantly. There are quite a few that aren’t here to attack you but really do want to know what you think and how you feel and how you come to your conclusions and beliefs about abortion.
I learn a lot from EVERYONE here.
Sleep tight. :)
Asitis, you are doing the classic thing a person losing an argument does- you’re shutting down conversation by claiming something absurd.
It’s like when a child says “you just hate me!” when you tell him he can’t ride his bike in the house. The kid hopes to shut down the conversation so the parents wont get to the rational behind their rule or call him out on his own irresponsible behavior.
We think your position is inconsistent. Please, explain why you are not inconsistent. Do so logically, and without making arbitrary distinctions that do not hold up to extrapolation.
lauren I have always maintained that I will not discuss this. It has nothing to do with “losing an argument” . I already know you think i am wrong whatever my particular position is on abortion.I’m fine with that.
Asitis, that is ridiculous. You wont defend your own beliefs?
If you are so sure that you are right, why night lay out your reasoning. You’re being intellectually lazy to refuse to hold your own views up to scruitany.
I find it absurd that you will come on a pro-life site day after day, and argue about the most asinine points, yet refuse to actually explain the basis for your own beliefs.
Just admit that you have no logical underpinning.
Danielle, so really it isn’t a matter of choice with you, but rather a belief that abortion is the only correct option in some situations?
Posted by: lauren at March 2, 2009 5:28 PM
-I agree that I DON’T think its a matter of choice when it’s a child who’s potentially making that decision. A wouldn’t allow a child/teen to make any life-altering decisions on their own. Having a baby is certainly one of those. So no, if it’s my child, you don’t get to choose. As parents its your responsibility to do what’s best for your family and save your children from themselves if you have to.
lauren why would I want to hold my view up to scrutiny when I know exactly what you’ll say? And it makes no difference to me anyway? Sorry, you’ll have to find someone else to play your game.
Mike- I swear we dated in high school. I seem to like PEOPLE who sometimes use BOLD to get their POINT across. Kind of like me!
Bethany- For me, it’s the cusp of first to second trimester when I think life really begins. But I don’t support legislation banning abortion. Because the women having late-term abortions are usually doing it for health reasons. I know there are exceptions, but I just find it hard to believe that the majority of women look down at their belly during their eighth month and say “Oh, gee, I don’t feel like being pregnant anymore!” and get abortions. But even if they were to think that way, which is sad and gross, I still wouldn’t support this legislation. They’re still in control of their bodies.
Commence barrage of statistics from pro-life organizations showing me I’m wrong…:) I just have an opinion that I’ve had since age 10 and I’m stickin’ to it!
Actually, AM, my statistics about late term abortions and why they are performed come from Guttmacher…
In 1987, the Alan Guttmacher Institute collected questionnaires from 1,900 women in the United States who came to clinics to have abortions. Of the 1,900 questioned, 420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks. These 420 women were asked to choose among a list of reasons they had not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies. The results were as follows:[3]
* 71% Woman didn’t recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
* 48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
* 33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
* 24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
* 8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
* 8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
* 6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
* 6% Woman didn’t know timing is important
* 5% Woman didn’t know she could get an abortion
* 2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
* 11% Other
AM, why is it wrong for the woman in this story to kill her newborn baby? After all, it had only been born for a very short time. You would support legally killing it 5 minutes beforehand, correct, although regretfully.
Asitis, because you are in here scrutinizing everone else’s beliefs. You are on a pro-life blog. The truth is that you don’t want to put your idea out there because you know it wont stand up to a closer look.
We put our ideas out there all the time, and you pick apart every tangental item you can grasp onto. Even so, you are never able to disprove our underlying logic.
You want to set here and critique everyone else without taking the risk of having yourself critiqued. You are a coward.
Man up, and defend your views. You think it is ok for a mother to kill her child. You better have a reason for that and be able to defend it. Right now, I hear you holding a belief that you’ve never actually thought through. If you are so sure of yourself, why not prove it?
We’ve converted quite a few pro-choicers to our side using logic and medical evidence. If you really belive that we are harming women, shouldn’t you also be trying to lead people to your side? Either you don’t care, or you’re not too confident in your own views. I doubt it’s the former because you come to an abortion website everyday.
Danielle, I agree that parents should have the ultimate say in their child’s life altering decisions, but I don’t think forcing them to kill their child is helping them make a good decision.
I just have an opinion that I’ve had since age 10 and I’m stickin’ to it!
Are you sentimentally attached to your position? That may seem like a strange question, but it doesn’t seem that your reasoning for keeping your position is a logical one, but one of sentimentalism…as if you’d lose a part of yourself if you changed it or considered another perspective on the issue. Well, I’ve got to get to bed now. I hope you have a good night!
Before I go…wow, Lauren…you are so articulate- you said everything I have felt and couldn’t express with words. Very well done.
Good night! :)
nice try lauren but I’m not taking the bait!
Danielle, I agree that parents should have the ultimate say in their child’s life altering decisions, but I don’t think forcing them to kill their child is helping them make a good decision.
Posted by: Lauren at March 2, 2009 10:12 PM
-Perhaps. I also don’t think a child having a baby is a good decision either, and I wouldn’t allow a child to decide for herself that that would be a good idea.
We’ve converted quite a few pro-choicers to our side using logic and medical evidence.
Posted by: Lauren at March 2, 2009 10:10 PM
-It’s interesting that you see this as an opportunity for ‘conversion’. I wonder how many PC’ers view debating PL’ers the same way. Because I have no desire or agenda to try and convert you to my viewpoint. I don’t esteem myself to be able to. I simply respect your decision, realize we won’t agree and move on.
Bethany, Thank you.
Danielle,perhaps it isn’t ideal for a teenager to have a child, but it is much better than her killing her child. An abortion doesn’t magically erase the situation, it just makes your daughter the mother of a dead child.
As for conversion. Of course we’re trying to convert people. We live in a society that says it is ok to kill your child before she is born. If public opinion changes, we can stop the atrocity.
Asitis, that’s fine, but you’ve shown that you have absolutely no foundation for your beliefs. If you are going to do that, then don’t expect anyone to take your criticisms with even a grain of salt.
Just know that you support the deliberate killing of human beings and you can’t even articulate why. That is beyond sad.
I will tell you that for starters I fully support the use of the Pill and have no problem with it inhibiting implantation. In fact I have been using it successfully for 20 years and there’s a chance I have relaized an egg and it managed to meet up with a sperm and do to my own actions, it met an inhospitable uterine wall. I’m totally okay with that.So according to you, I’m evil simply for that. Why bother telling you any more?
Posted by: asitis at March 2, 2009 8:05 PM
********************************************
I have never called anyone “evil” who uses the Pill or is in a marriage relationship and using birth control, and I never intend to, because I do not believe that in the chance of an inhospitable uterine wall that this is the intentional/willful destruction of a human being. I believe it is unintended, if it occurs. That said, I used the Pill years ago before I realized what it did to my body and I chose not to do so ever again.
So…did I ever say that you were “evil” Asitis, or have you just made up things in your head about ALL pro-lifers again?
Lauren, it’s fine by me if you want to think I have no absolutely no basis for my beliefs. It doesn’t mean that’s the case.
And that tactic isn’t going to work either BTW.Still not taking the bait. Try again.
Good night.
I have never called anyone “evil” who uses the Pill or is in a marriage relationship and using birth control, and I never intend to, because I do not believe that in the chance of an inhospitable uterine wall that this is the intentional/willful destruction of a human being. I believe it is unintended, if it occurs. That said, I used the Pill years ago before I realized what it did to my body and I chose not to do so ever again.
So…did I ever say that you were “evil” Asitis, or have you just made up things in your head about ALL pro-lifers again?
Posted by: Kel at March 2, 2009 10:50 PM
Oh I don’t know if you personally ever said I was “evil” or similar Kel.
How do you feel about someone who was on the Pill and NOT married? How about if they are on the Pill and are fully aware of the effect it could have on implantation and they are fine with that happening?
I’ll check back in the morn. To bed…….
Asitis, I’m not trying to get you to “take the bait” I’m explaining why you have absolutely no validity within the debate. It’s fine with me that you want to play the part of an uniformed, catch-phrase pro-choicer. Just don’t expect me or anyone else on this board to respect you as an intelligent, meaningful contributer.
You are little more than a troll at this point.
And that tactic isn’t going to work either BTW.Still not taking the bait. Try again.
Good night.
Posted by: asitis at March 2, 2009 10:51 PM
*****************************************
LOL-you sound like a game show. “Sorry, try again!” This isn’t a game to the rest of us when human lives are on the line, though I can see how it would seem like a game to you.
And if the PC side here doesn’t seek to “convert” anyone to their position, I’m curious as to why they come here at all. Is it just to “play the game?”
“Abortion proponents- where are you when these stories are posted? Can you express any outrage at all, for the little baby in this story? I never seem to see anything like that in you people, and don’t understand that. How can you see a story like this and not be totally outraged and horrified, and express that. Are you so desensitized that you cannot see even a born child as being worthy of life, or consider this type of story to be a horrible tragedy? ”
@Bethany: I’ll answer your question. I have no outrage nor do I care.
Oh I don’t know if you personally ever said I was “evil” or similar Kel.
**********************************
Then why accuse Bethany and myself of it? Strange. For the record, no, I haven’t.
“How do you feel about someone who was on the Pill and NOT married? How about if they are on the Pill and are fully aware of the effect it could have on implantation and they are fine with that happening?
I’ll check back in the morn. To bed…….
Posted by: asitis at March 2, 2009 11:00 PM
****************************************
Sorry asitis. Not taking the bait. TRY AGAIN! ;)
Rae, wow. Are you outraged by any attempted murder, war, famine, or abuse?
@Lauren: Nope.
Asitis: “Lauren, it’s fine by me if you want to think I have no absolutely no basis for my beliefs. It doesn’t mean that’s the case. ”
Oh please. You havent defended a single comment that you have made here. Dont try to pull that crap. Im pretty sure that Ive seen you way back trying to defend your position, and if I remember correctly, your beliefs were totally arbitrary and made little to no sense. You arent bringing them up again right now because you KNOW that they are based on nothing but random “feelings.”
What a joke. Its sad to think that you are an adult with children. What a poor example you must show them on a daily basis. Either you show cowardice or pig-headedness here. What was it you said to Hal? Something along the lines of “chasing” me off? Youre not even as challenging as a paper tiger. Youre nothing but an over-grown child. How could you possibly think you could influence me?
Rae,
How did you get to the point where you have completely dehumanized babies? (unborn and apparently born now).
Or are you just in a bad mood?
Hi Rae,
What DOES outrage you?
@Jasper: Who cares?
@Kel: Nothing.
Ok, well, I see you’re not much in the mood for discussion, which makes me wonder why you’ve posted this evening.
Have a great night, everyone! :)
Rae, it’s really sad to hear that you have so little regard for humanity.
We do Rae….
I’d stop hanging out at pharyngula, that guy is so negative
hey, did you know the big bang started from one single super-atom?
@Kel: I’m perfectly willing to have a conversation. I was answering your question with brevity. Apologies if you found my curtness rude.
@Lauren: I don’t know why you give a crap about somebody you’ve never met- but that’s just me.
Pray like crazy that this baby hasn’t suffered permanent damage. I know it’s a bit of a stretch, but I’ve seen miracles on that level happen in my own life.
He’ll be adopted lickety split. I guarantee it. The sympathy for this case in particular combined with the sympathy for ill children overall will bode very well for him. He’ll have a great life, and that’s a very nice thought.
As for her, I hope she goes to prison until she’s too old and frail to harm anyone else ever again.
@Jasper: I only skim Pharyngula- don’t really read it in depth.
Rae: “@Kel: Nothing.”
I actually have no problems with this stance. Of course, thats assuming that you really believe this, which I doubt you do. I imagine Dubbya got you up in arms, but then again maybe not. Anywho, as long as murder and famine and poverty and the sort do not bug you, neither should abortion. If you have disdain for all human life in general, whats the matter with disdain for preborns? Its the hypocrtics who believe that murder should be illegal because of the ethical ramifications that contrastly support the killing of innocent humans that REALLY bugs me.
@Oliver: Nah- I was never bothered by “Dubya”.
I think Rae is outraged and does care. This could be her way of dealing with the horror in the world today…
Note: I’m not trying to be condesending Rae..
of course, becoming a Christian does help
@Jasper: I think one shouldn’t try to tell other people what they think.
I don’t need to deal with “horror” in the world that does not directly affect me.
(Also, a hearty eye roll to your last sentence.)
Rae,
You’re going for your degree in public health and you expect me to believe you don’t care what happened to this baby?
…Something else is bothering you.
Tomorrow is a new day :)
How doesn’t Abortion affect you?
You DO know that a lot of taxpayers $$ go to public funded abortions…….
Danielle,
I thought the whole point of being pro-choice was that so no one could tell a female to do something with her body that she does/does not want to do. As a parent, I understand there are decisions we make for our children for their best interest. But I think if you do not want to have to face those situations with your future children, you do everything you can to PREVENT them from getting in those situations. (i.e. stop them from having sex until you feel they are old enough to be making those decisions) I’m sure this will get a hearty laugh from many people out there, but I didn’t have sex til I was 18 and it was probably because my parents were so active in my life and were THERE and around making sure I wasn’t having sex.
Also, a very close friend of mine got pregnant at 16 and her mother forced her to have an abortion. She was never the same. She still isn’t. She became obsessed with babies, getting pregnant, etc. after her forced abortion by her mother. It consumed her. She is still a very lost person even though she is now the mother of a daughter that is very close in age to my daughter. You may be able to get rid of the pregnancy and baby so that your daughter’s life isn’t “ruined” but you won’t be able to get rid of or help the emotional scars you would potentially be placing on your child for the rest of her life.
@Krystal: I don’t pay taxes. It’s awesome not having a job.
I never should have taken a break from studying. But I have to wonder Oliver or Lauren, if you are anti-death penalty? I don’t want to derail the conversation, but just curious as to how far forward you take your extrapolations.
http://onemom.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/kathleen-sebelius-pro-life-for-criminals/
Kansas Governor Kathleen Sebelius (D) is the latest selection by President Obama to fill the seat of the Director of Health and Human Services.
I have found an interesting contradiction in two separate issues of life.
In regard to the death penalty, Gov. Sebelius has said that
“owing to her Catholicism” she must oppose the death penalty.
However, in regard to abortion, Gov. Sebelius has said that
she is “obligated to uphold state and federal laws and court decisions related to abortion”, even though she says personally she opposes it.
So, the likely new director of HHS, parades her Catholic beliefs that criminal lives must be protected, then hides those beliefs in a closet when it comes to protecting the lives of the unborn.
Jasper, I understand the criticism, but I was specifically asking the danger duo what their beliefs are :P
While lobbying in jeff city I met a Democrat who did tell us he was pro-life in every aspect- abortion and death penalty included.
Gives one hope, you know?
Asitis, I’m not trying to get you to “take the bait” I’m explaining why you have absolutely no validity within the debate. It’s fine with me that you want to play the part of an uniformed, catch-phrase pro-choicer. Just don’t expect me or anyone else on this board to respect you as an intelligent, meaningful contributer.
You are little more than a troll at this point.
Posted by: Lauren at March 2, 2009 11:01 PM
And yet she was invited by Stanek.
As with all message boards on the net, they become dominated by a “few” posters, which eventually become repeatable and stale.
We all know that “no one has a good argument” against Asitis, “they just think they do”.
Those words in quotes, are from a certain poster who I shall now conjure up ………Doug, Doug, Doug.
Abracadabra, shazam.
Dogma is my name, abortion is my game.
Ps. Hal is a 8151315-1681525. I proved it.
Will the resident Kempetai,pro life moderator protect Hal from the truth? A “approved” pro abortionist troll, at a pro life site, once again?
And if the PC side here doesn’t seek to “convert” anyone to their position, I’m curious as to why they come here at all. Is it just to “play the game?”
Posted by: Kel at March 2, 2009 11:01 PM
-I’m here to have a conversation. I don’t play games – too old for that.
@Elizabeth:
I thought the whole point of being pro-choice was that so no one could tell a female to do something with her body that she does/does not want to do.
-Correct. This autonomy is not necessarily available to children.
As a parent, I understand there are decisions we make for our children for their best interest. But I think if you do not want to have to face those situations with your future children, you do everything you can to PREVENT them from getting in those situations. (i.e. stop them from having sex until you feel they are old enough to be making those decisions).
-Agreed.
I’m sure this will get a hearty laugh from many people out there, but I didn’t have sex til I was 18 and it was probably because my parents were so active in my life and were THERE and around making sure I wasn’t having sex.
-Ditto.
You may be able to get rid of the pregnancy and baby so that your daughter’s life isn’t “ruined” but you won’t be able to get rid of or help the emotional scars you would potentially be placing on your child for the rest of her life.
-Risky, yes, if she and I don’t hold the same positions on abortion and teen pregnancy. Which is why I say I struggle with it. It would be a serious decision for our family. But at this point it is likely a chance I’m willing to take (hypothetically). Depending on her age, I may be willing to compromise on adoption. Keeping a child simply will not be an option.
Danielle, if I was your daughter and became pregnant, I would run away.
Danielle,
My mother brought my sister for an abortion and neither one has ever been the same. Abortion will affect you as a mother and as a grandmother. Abortion affects us all.
Good morning, Bethany!!
Yllas, Jill never confirmed that she invited Asitis back- even if she did invite her, it doesn’t make her a bad person for doing so. Isn’t it entirely possible in your mind that Jill cares about Asitis and wants her to come here so that she can be exposed to the truth?
People’s hearts and minds can be changed. I’ve seen it happen before, I know it is possible. Asitis is not an exception.
Good morning, Carla! I’ve got to be at the CPC soon. :) Just getting in a few posts before then.
Danielle, if you want to lose your daughter forever, the fastest way to do that is to force her to have an abortion against her will. Or to give her baby up against her will.
I agree with Jasper- I don’t believe you, Rae. Not trying to be condescending at all. I just think I know you better than that. You have too much heart.
Kel, 11:03 PM, touche!!
Dangerous Duo, lol!
Yes, we’re against the death penalty.
I’m off to the clinic!
Has Yllas been invited back?? :P
Asitis, I’m not trying to get you to “take the bait” I’m explaining why you have absolutely no validity within the debate. It’s fine with me that you want to play the part of an uniformed, catch-phrase pro-choicer. Just don’t expect me or anyone else on this board to respect you as an intelligent, meaningful contributer.
You are little more than a troll at this point.
Posted by: Lauren at March 2, 2009 11:01 PM
You’re still baiting Lauren…..
What a joke. Its sad to think that you are an adult with children. What a poor example you must show them on a daily basis. Either you show cowardice or pig-headedness here. What was it you said to Hal? Something along the lines of “chasing” me off? Youre not even as challenging as a paper tiger. Youre nothing but an over-grown child. How could you possibly think you could influence me?
Posted by: Oliver at March 2, 2009 11:17 PM
Oh, such anger Oliver.
But I think if you do not want to have to face those situations with your future children, you do everything you can to PREVENT them from getting in those situations. (i.e. stop them from having sex until you feel they are old enough to be making those decisions) I’m sure this will get a hearty laugh from many people out there, but I didn’t have sex til I was 18 and it was probably because my parents were so active in my life and were THERE and around making sure I wasn’t having sex.
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella’s Momma) at March 3, 2009 12:00 AM
I made even longer Elizabeth. Not much though! We can’t be with our teens every hour of every day (nor should we be for their sakes) so I would say though that, in addition to advising them to wait as long as possible, we need to ensure they know the importance of being responsible and using contraception properly and all the time once they do have sex.
No, she’s not, Asitis. She doesn’t care if you respond.
Good morning, by the way!
Good moring Bethany.
No, she does. It’s clear. She’d love to “get into it” with me and she thinks throwing unfounded insults will entice me to defend them. Now, as for her husband… he’s even more insulting, but I’ll agree he doesn’t really care if I respond.
Awesome Lauren :)
@Bethany: You’re free to think that. Doesn’t make you right though.
We can’t be with our teens every hour of every day (nor should we be for their sakes)
I agree with this, mostly. I was a pretty independent child and teenager; I wasn’t allowed to just do whatever I wanted, but I scheduled my own activities and was responsible for keeping on top of my own life, basically. Of course my parents were involved in my life but they weren’t there all the time, or even (as I grew older, to 16 and 17 and 18) most of the time. It would have been really easy for me to run off and have sex once I started driving, basically — I played in more orchestras than they could keep track of, I tutored other students in various subjects, I did lots of community service, I had a part-time job with irregular hours, I slept at friends’ houses on weekends, etc. But there was never really the implication that my parents were there to keep me from having sex — more just that they were there to educate me and raise me in such a way that once I would not choose to do so until I was physically, emotionally, and intellectually ready for it.
I didn’t have sex until I was in the later months of 22, long after my parents were no longer around to make sure I wasn’t having sex — I’d moved out and had a full-time job by that point. I’m 26 now and my first boyfriend is the man I now live with. My parents trusted me, because they taught me.
Hahaha I think I commented on the wrong topic. It wasn’t important anyway, mods can delete if you want. That’ll teach me to comment while working.
Asitis, I could care less if you respond. I’m not throwing “unfounded” insults. I’m acurately describeing your behavior.
You’re showing yourself to be someone that adds nothing to the conversation. That’s fine, but don’t pretend to be anyone else.
Okay, I’m a moron. I posted my first comment on the correct topic. NO MORE COMPUTER for Alexandra today, apparently.
Bethany,
I’m with you on that one. I’d probably run away too. But I don’t necessarily believe Danielle when she says that she would FORCE her daughter to do anything of the sort like that. We all SAY things when we are far away from a situation, and act far different when actually placed in that situation.
But Danielle, if you force your daughter to make such a monumental, life-changing decision without her input because it’s HER body, you will probably sever your parent-child, mother-daughter relationship forever. I’m pretty secure (as a parent myself) in saying she’d never trust you or come to you again for anything important.
Another thing Danielle,
What if your son got somebody pregnant? It’s no longer in your ability to force anybody to do anything about the baby so what would you encourage your son to do? Stand up and be a man?
PiP,
Im definitely against the death penalty. Its actually sad. Im pro-environment as well. I would make a great Democrat. This election and how Obama and the Democratic part in general have operated has caused a “red shift” as I call it in my household. Both Lauren and I have openly embraced the Republican party now. How weird for me to even say that. I hope that with the changing times that the Republican party will return to its roots and take up fiscal responsibility at the same time change with the times and adopt a more “consistent” ethical agenda.
I remember my first college class. It was a contemporary ethics class. I remember after class when the proffesor had admited that my disection of the “burglar” analogy to abortion was “genius” that a few students asked me what I thought of the death penalty. I told them that to me it was obvious that abortion is imoral and that the death penalty is as well. The conservative types were disapointed, but my teacher had overheard me and interupted saying “thats what many people call the consistent stance.” Ill always remember that! Consistent.
It was interesting coming from him because he was the typical Austin hippie type. He was actually from Canada and was pro-choice, but at the same time, he respected the horror of abortion and in no way celebrated the action as many pro-choicers do.
Alexandra,
You are doing fine. :)
Elizabeth and Rae,
Nice to see you again!!!
Way back up there Bethany asked me why it bothers me, because the baby was only something like 5 minutes old (Im too lazy to scroll all the way back up but that was the gist). Because it was born vs. unborn. Fully gestated, ready to leave the womb, living on its own, not inside the mother.
I don’t see the issue as “oh, 2 months pregnant, that’s 20% human” I see it as “could this fetus survive on its own?” then that abortion disgusts me (although I wont take your right away. A lot of things disgust me that I wouldn’t change, even if it wasn’t law). Has it been born? Then it’s no longer an issue, it’s a separate human.
Sort of cut and dry for me.
Whoa, did Danielle say she’d kill her own grandchild instead of just adopting the kid out? Holy cow. Your hatred for your grandchildren foes even further than to your children! You want to be ABLE to kill your children, but you want to CERTAINLY kill your grandchildren.
This is the face of the pro-choice movement. Such disdain for life…make me sick. I know that most Americans would discard this belief.
AM: “I don’t see the issue as “oh, 2 months pregnant, that’s 20% human” I see it as “could this fetus survive on its own?”…”
So humans that need a life support system dont have the right to live? What do you think our planet is AM? Its a giant life support system. Id like to see you survive if I ejected you into outerspace. Could an infant survive in the woods all on its own? Of course not. Does that mean it isnt a human being? Im confused. What exactly about the preborn’s predicament makes it any different from any other scenario where a human needs a system of support? What qualitatively different about the physcial womb?
AM: “then that abortion disgusts me (although I wont take your right away. A lot of things disgust me that I wouldn’t change, even if it wasn’t law). Has it been born? Then it’s no longer an issue, it’s a separate human.”
Now I can intepret what you said in a few ways. You could be saying that you are an anarchist and that you wouldnt make just about anything immoral illegal, hence the “a lot of things….I wouldn’t change.” If thats the case, more power to you.
The other way I can interpret you, which based on the context of your other statements is more than likely the right intepretation, is that you mean that abortion is a CHOICE so even if it is immoral, its somebody’s CHOICE so how can you take that “right” away? Now if you mean this, let me clarify. If abortion is indeed an unjust killing, as you seem to think at viability, then by definition that abortion is commiting a murder. If the abortion is by definition a murder, then there is NO right to an abortion, and you have every right and duty as a citizen of humanity to help protect those innocent humans from an unjust killing through whatever means possible.
You’re showing yourself to be someone that adds nothing to the conversation. That’s fine, but don’t pretend to be anyone else.
Posted by: Lauren at March 3, 2009 9:37 AM
Your opinion Lauren. I’m quite sure you wsih i would go away. I’m fine with you feeling that way.
Oliver, I have to actually work at my job now but I’ll try to clarify later. In a nutshell, I think our paths diverge because I don’t think it’s murder. I don’t like abortion and wish everyone could put up their baby for adoption but that’s just implausible thinking, especially considering people like the woman in this article exist! I may think it’s wrong after viability and wouldn’t do it myself, but as the fetus is still in the mother, it’s her choice to terminate the pregnancy, which I just don’t view as murder.
I probably just muddled things up further.
What if your son got somebody pregnant? It’s no longer in your ability to force anybody to do anything about the baby so what would you encourage your son to do? Stand up and be a man?
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella’s Momma) at March 3, 2009 9:56 AM
That’s what my situation would be Elizabeth, since I only have sons. If I had daughters I would not force them either way. It is ultimately their decision. And having sons, I would encourage them to do whatever needs to be done based on her decision.
Would your sons coerce their girlfriends to abort? Would you encourage that? These are your grandchildren we are talking about.
Would they coerce them to? Well, I can’t answer that really. But I would certainly hope they would not and would not encourage them to. It would be wrong for them to force their opinion (whatever it is) on the girl.
I appreciate your honest answer. It takes one young man to tell a young girl that he walks if she doesn’t get the abortion.
Asitis: “Your opinion Lauren. I’m quite sure you wsih i would go away. I’m fine with you feeling that way. ”
I dont know what Lauren thinks, but for me, why would I want you to go away? You dont threaten anything anyone says here. In fact, if anything you help to reinforce the idea that a large number of pro-choicers dont even know what they think on the issue. You help our argument everytime you post.
You help our argument everytime you post.
Posted by: Oliver at March 3, 2009 1:37 PM
If thinking that makes you feel any better Oliver, go for it.
AM :”Oliver, I have to actually work at my job now but I’ll try to clarify later. In a nutshell, I think our paths diverge because I don’t think it’s murder. I don’t like abortion and wish everyone could put up their baby for adoption but that’s just implausible thinking, especially considering people like the woman in this article exist! I may think it’s wrong after viability and wouldn’t do it myself, but as the fetus is still in the mother, it’s her choice to terminate the pregnancy, which I just don’t view as murder.
I probably just muddled things up further.”
Youll need to clarify of course, but let me go ahead and put a few points out there.
First of all, what about abortion tells you that it is to be disliked at a deep level? You say that it should be a choice, but what would make someone’s choice something that bothers you? Are you upset by someone choosing to eat one meal over the other? Probably not. Are you upset by a person who uses drugs? Sure, but its the person choice over their body. What about abortion stands out? It hurts, whether or not its justifed, another human being. You dont feel bad about abortion because the mother hurts herself…so why are you upset at the hurt to this fetus?
Of course, I wouldnt hinge my argument on emotional appeal…I just find it fascinating that some pro-choicers are hurt by abortion, yet support the choice. We dont support the choice to steal food. The problem is a question of rights. So speaking of rights….
What makes a preborn’s rights less important than those of a newborn? What are the necessary and sufficient characteristics and why? My assertion is that a preborn has no special distinction from a newborn. Newborns are not self aware, not capable of changing their environment and not capable of self survival. The only distinctions between a newborn and a preborn are held in common with almost every mammal, such as the ability to think or feel pain, etc. Beyond that, there are humans who do not have the ability to think, or do not have the ability to feel, yet are held to the same standard in terms of rights as all humans.
The only fundamental characteristic that separates a newborn from many animals is human DNA. What does human DNA have inherently in it to set us apart? Nothing. The attributed rights come from an unspoken social contract. The idea that humans respect one others rights with the underpinning ideas of empathy and justice. This probably stems from some sort of tribal instinct, but whatever the reason we all subscribe to this. We believe that all humans have the right to not be killed unjustly and have the right to ownership and the protection of that ownership etc. Now, admitedly, many of the tennents of the social contract are special to each culture and so forth, but there are certain beliefs that this culture holds to be true. For example, we believe that the indigents in our culture are to protected and provided for. We believe these indigents have rights just as any other human, not because they “earned” it through development or as a function of their inteligence, but because they are indeed human. In other words, belonging to the human race brings with it a special characteristic in our culture. So my question is why do we not take care of the MOST indigent humans, preborns? Regardless of what you believe, they do have rights as an extension of the rights we prescribe to all humans.
What is the real question then AM? The real question is whether or not the rights of the preborn have any place in violating the right to bodily autonomy of the mother. The pro-choice side tends to take abortion as the necessary evil. That we must violate the rights of the preborn in order to uphold the rights of the mother. I am going to advance the idea that the obligation of the mother to continue the pregnancy is the “necessary evil.” In other words, the mother will certainly have her right to choose for her own body what she wants to do, but only at the expense of providing for her child.
This “obligation” is not unprecedented. Parents must always give up their rights in many categories in order to provide for their child. Parents give up the right to privacy when they are NOT allowed to CHOOSE what activities to do and where to do them. In a nutshell, parents cannot leave their kids alone and go out to drink and party. In fact, it is criminal negligence to do so. Parents are ORDERED by the state to not do certain, otherwise legal activities, simply because of their child. This can be seen in the right to property as well. Parents are ORDERED to surrender a part of their money and housing to their child.
Of course the obvious objection is “well if children have the right to their parents bodies, why cant they deman a blood transfusion or a kidney?” My reponse is can the child demand pizza for dinner or the master bedroom for a gameroom? In other words, the child does have a special right to their parent, but not a carte blanche right. There are limitations. So what is the limitation? Before I openly address it, think on it yourself for a few minutes. What does a parent have to provide for their child? Food, water, shelter (both physical and emotional), the chance to become educated and the chance to access to medical care. So of course a child cannot demand a kidney or even blood from their parent (although for other reasons Im actually on the fence here anyways.) Those demands would fall outside of “food, shelter, etc.” They are needed to fasciliate the workings of the child’s own shortcomings. Food is a shortcoming of the human race. A failed kidney is a shortcoming of the human child in question.
Another way of analyzing the problem is to consider the education side of a parent’s obligation. Say a child has a particularly hard time to learn. Basic schooling is not enough, but the parent has no money to afford a tutor or other help. Is it the parents legal obligation to take extra time out to help their child to overcome a particularly bad learning problem? No. Yet, we would agree that a parent is legally obligated to provide SOME education to their child. I could provide additional examples along the lines of money. A parent must attempt to provide medical care for their child, but if the parent can only afford a special procedure through the selling of property, would you hold the parent legally obligated to pay for the special procedure through the selling of his/her property? Again, of course not. Yet you would certainly expect the parent to provide SOME access to medical care.
The hardest issue of the pregnancy is not the actual pregnancy itself. Much as it pains a parent to spend money on their child’s food at the expense of buying new clothes, the discomfort associated with pregnancy is the “partial” sacrifice that the parent is obligated to give. When this discomfort edges into the area of life threatening, I am actually for abortion. The mother does not owe her life to her child. Notice that a sacrfice of a life is not a partial sacrifice as in every other parental obligation. No, the hardest part is not the pregnancy itself, but the birth. Admitedly the changes from birth are not all temporary, and inherently are life threatening. However, if you view the birth procedure as you would view almost every other dangerous surgery involving two humans, you would see that the duty of both patients and the doctor is to preserve the most life and the highest quality of it.
Imagine if you will that two humans are speared through with a stop sign pole. Imagine that the quickest solution involved the immediate death of human A. However, the safest measure, that would save both humans, would take longer and therefore inflict more pain and scarring on human B. Does human B have the right to demand the least damage to his/her body at the death of human A? Of course not. Who is to say which human has the right over the other? Arbitration is required here, and the most “just” solution would be to preserve these two human’s lives, even if at the expense of addtional pain for human B.
As it is here, or in the case of healthy conjoined twins, the doctor’s role should be to determine which method would be the safest for the two humans involved in this “accident.” Always keep in mind that the preborn is also a victim in pregnancy. The preborn, from no action on its own, was created and placed in the predicament in the first place.
So to summarize.
Preborns have rights as an extension of the social contract.
They have partial claim on their parent’s rights to have food and shelter provided.
The sacrifice of birth is justified not as an obligation to the child, but as the most just arbitration.
For clarity: “In other words, the mother will certainly have her right to choose for her own body what she wants to do, but only at the expense of providing for her child.”
SHOULD be
“In other words, the mother will certainly have her right to choose for her own body what she wants to do TAKEN AWAY, but only at the expense of providing for her child. ”
“Imagine if you will that two humans are speared through with a stop sign pole”
Actually I have heard of something similar happening. I don’t think it was a stop sign, but in one car accident some type of large pole went through the driver’s leg and the passenger’s chest.
It was SO COOL (from a medical perspective, of course) to see the intensity and drive those doctors took to save those girls. They had to separate the pole first, so they found a way to stabilize the pole and to cool it down (so that the heat from friction would not cause excessive bleeding) and then took a tool to saw it in half.
Then they went into surgery. The one with the pole in her leg turned out quite fine, and the one with the chest they spent HOURS in the surgery room for. It turned out, it missed almost all the vital organs; the only thing it hit was a part of her lung, but it was the ONE part of the lung that can be damaged without lung collapsing or major respiratory damage! She healed very well.
Anyway…
Oh yeah Oliver I do commend your stances on environment and death penalty as well; it seems we are on the same wavelength there. If the republican party transforms itself into a fiscally responsible, totally human-rights conscience party, I would become a republican in an instant.
I don’t like the expansion of government; but I feel both parties have been responsible for that, even at the behest of the rest of us on both sides! But I also feel that the republican party as it is now does not stand for fiscal responsibility (see: last 8 years) and has consistently opposed any measure or effort to improve human rights in all its forms (if only because democrats support it, IMO). But Democrats just like Republicans have their faults that they try to justify rather than correct. It is like this article I read in Newsweek lately regarding partisanship that says it might never happen simply because the bipartisan system caters to the fringe and thus become polar opposites, unwilling to make any compromise, rather than those who want to find ways to work together (at least on some issues) to come up with rational solutions to problems.
Sigh…….
whoops, okay “bipartisan system” should mean “two-party system” and regarding “partisanship that says it might never happen” “it” refers to bipartisanship.
Sorry, I was up late studying for physiology, and I am ready to take a nap :)
This is driving me effing nuts. I’m trying to find a funny saturday tv funhouse clip related to my last post, but they have ALL BEEN REMOVED. And there are only like 6 videos on the snl website. NOTE TO TV NETWORKS: If you are going to remove all the videos off the interwebs, put it on your own d*** website!!!
Has Yllas been invited back?? :P
Posted by: Carla at March 3, 2009 7:04 AM
Well Carla, if you read my post, maybe your one of those posters which dominate a message board until you’ve run out of stimulating and thought provoking “conversation”.
I do, and soo must you, if your honest with yourself.
That’s what my situation would be Elizabeth, since I only have sons. If I had daughters I would not force them either way. It is ultimately their decision. And having sons, I would encourage them to do whatever needs to be done based on her decision.
Posted by: asitis at March 3, 2009 10:56 AM
What a joke……”do whatever needs to be done”.
If either one of my sons got a girl pregnant and didn’t man up and provide that child with all of the support it was due (whether that included marriage or not would depend upon the situation, but the child itself deserves support no matter what) I would grab him by the ear and drag him as the child he was acting like up to her parents’ front door and MAKE him act like a man.
Obviously, I could not prevent her from getting an abortion and killing my grandchild, but I would certainly pray she did not.
Elisabeth, maybe I was a little soft on my “encourage”. I would HOPE that would be all I’d have to do to kick them into gear, but if not, I’d be just like you draggin’ them by the ear to her door!
Luckily my little men are still in the “I lost a tooth, don’t forget to let the tooth fairy know!” stage…
But I have received multiple comments from people watching Joseph (12) interact with his younger siblings, sometimes on difficult issues, and universally the statement has been, “He is going to be an excellent father someday.”
Thank God he has no idea how flippin’ good looking he is!