Alan Keyes to get arrested at Notre Dame today, 11:30a
Apparently my complaint against Randall Terry just egged him on. A news release just out:
Dr. Alan Keyes and 20 pro-lifers will walk on to Notre Dame’s campus at 11:30a [EST], Friday, May 08, with baby strollers carrying baby dolls covered in “stage blood” to protest the invitation of Notre Dame to President Obama to deliver the commencement address at this year’s graduation.
On May 7, Dr. Keyes was unexpectedly approached at a press conference on public property by 2 plain clothes Notre Dame policemen and told if he walks on Notre Dame’s campus for any reason, he will be arrested.
Dr. Keyes was shocked. He stated: “I have not even stepped foot on the campus, and they give me this warning? They told me: ‘We are just doing our job.’ I told them I am just coming to witness for the truth.”…
Dr. Keyes had a long conversation with both men, telling them that they have a duty to God to do what is right. He told them that on the day of Judgment they will not be excused for wrong doing, because they were “doing their job,” any more than German guards at concentration camps could make such an excuse.
Dr. Keyes released a statement explaining why he was willing to be arrested. Dr. Keyes full text can be read at StopObamaNotreDame.com.
On Thursday, pro-lifers began to arrive from around the country to push the strollers with Dr. Keyes, and face the ire of Notre Dame Officials, as well as arrest. Most of those risking arrest are from Notre Dame; but pro-life advocates from DC, MI, TX, AR, and OH also have arrived.
Randall Terry, StopObamaNotreDame.com organizer states: “Dr. Keyes presence has catapulted this battle to a new level. If we have 100 or more people going to jail over the next week protesting this blatant evil, it may derail Obama’s speech, and it will be a message that reaches America, the Vatican, and the world.
“We are asking our pro-life friends to join us in jail, or at least to come and stand with us in the streets.”
I think this is unhelpful and risks turning the protest against Obama’s appearance at Notre Dame into a circus. I could be wrong, but we’re walking a fine line, and stunts like this aren’t good, IMO. Terry and Keyes have bonded into a renegade tag team these past few years.
We’ll see how many pro-lifers actually turn out for this. I’m thinking the release is attempting to bloat involvement. Again, we’ll see. Exaggerating isn’t helpful either. Underpromise and overperform is always the way to go.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Alan Keyes is courageous and I appreciate his willingness to come out of his comfort zone and take on a little risk to expose the fact that all abortions kill a person. He is not a feminized Christian, apathetic to murder like many so called pro-lifers. Bravo Keyes! Let us pray that you meet great success and that hearts are changed so that eventually ALL children have a right to life!
I think this is unhelpful and risks turning the protest against Obama’s appearance at Notre Dame into a circus.”
Risk? Are you kidding me? Busloads of activists, planes with banners, trucks with photos, and billboards all over town, and *now* you’re beginning to think it’s going to be a circus. You’re simply getting what you asked for. Yet advancing your cause not an inch. But, as I said, I love a good protest/circus. Have at it.
Hal, there’s a difference between the reality of abortion and staging it. As I’ve also said, there’s a difference between getting arrest for noble reasons (such as Pastor Hoye) and pure theatre.
While as a pro-choicer, I respect the right of people to oppose abortion and their right to free speech, Randall Terry is a scoundrel and a bigot. He is a narrow-minded, intolerant, self-righteous magealomaniac and fanatic.
He is an unscrupulous demagogue, and a relgious extremist who is not only opposed to abortion,which is his right, but a rabid homophobe and religious zealot who wants to turn America into a theocracy,and would do anything to gain power. He is no better than a Hitler,and thank god he does not have political power. He must NEVER achieve it.
He is a dangerous fanatic,and must be stopped.
Tell us how you really feel, Robert. Don’t hold back.
While as a pro-choicer, I respect the right of people to oppose abortion and their right to free speech, Randall Terry is a scoundrel and a bigot.
Posted by: Robert Berger at May 8, 2009 9:36 AM
What sort of bigot is Randall Terry?
Clearly he can’t be a racial bigot because minorities are enormously overrepresented in abortion.
As a percentage of their population, far more minority children would be here if not for abortion and abortion subsidies for the poor.
I can’t see Dr. Alan Keyes using the same tactics as Randall Terry……I really can’t.
GO Personhood,
I couldn’t agree more.
Jill, it’s only a difference of degree. All protest is, and should be, theater. Getting arrested generates publicity and makes people notice the depth of your commitment. It’s a different atmosphere then a candlelight vigil, for sure, but it can be effective. I’m no fan of Keyes or his ideas, but I don’t think he’s going to change the tenor of the event very much. It will indeed be a circus, with or without him.
It will indeed be a circus, with or without him.
Posted by: Hal at May 8, 2009 10:29 AM
Hal, you are probably right, but it will be Fr. Jenkins who will be the circus-master. If he had stuck to serving God rather than mammon, this wouldn’t be happening today.
“walks on the campus for any reason”\
I guess the “cops” have been ordered to break the laws. What is the crime of “being on the campus for any reason?”
Obama used ACORN people to make noise and scream and break up city council meetings to attack officials and get aggressive. In a Marxist universe, which activists are good and which are wrong?
Who else has received visits from Obama’s surrogate brute squad? It is very disturbing that a free citizen, a public figure, was threatened with arrest in this way. ‘We are just doing our job’ say the ‘police’ … to silence the opposition. Outrageous and tyrannical.
Strength to Mr. Keyes and his friends who will not let our God be mocked.
Anonymous, city council meetings are public. ND is private property. The crime is “trespass” if they’ve asked him to stay off their land.
Landowners have the right to exclude anyone they wish.
While as a pro-choicer, I respect the right of people to oppose abortion and their right to free speech, Randall Terry is a scoundrel and a bigot. He is a “narrow-minded”, “intolerant”, self-righteous “magealomaniac” and “fanatic”.
He is an “unscrupulous demagogue”, and a “relgious extremist” who is not only opposed to abortion,which is his right, but a rabid homophobe and religious zealot who wants to turn America into a theocracy,and would do anything to gain power. He is no better than a Hitler,and thank god he does not have political power. He must NEVER achieve it.
He is a “dangerous fanatic”,and must be stopped.
Posted by: Robert Berger at May 8, 2009 9:36 AM
I like it when bigots defend their turf and start name calling just as trooo bigots do.
I will give you a question. Please tell us 2-3 examples of deeds done by Dr Keyes that caused hurt and harm. Surely backing up the “dangerous accusation” is easy for ya.
BTW, I don’t agree with Keyes and Terry. I think their actions are just plain stupid. And very damaging to the prolife initiative here.
Hanging ketchup drenched dolls on crosses or in strollers NEVER changed anyone’s mind about abortion. It makes me cringe.
Our position has truth and reason on its side. This makes the prolife position look unreasonable and “cracked”.
I did not say that Terry is a racial bigot, but a bigot against homosexuals.
And he’s much more ijnterested in power, and oppressing p[oor women that “saving babies”.
Government subsidies to minorities CAUS abortions? Are you kidding? If the government did more to support the poor of whatever race, there would be far FEWER abortions, period. As a pro-choice person, that is something very desirabe.
Pro-choicers don’t want more abortions; they want to prevent as many unwanted pregnancies as possible so that poor women will be far less likey to seek and obtain them.
Let’s face it, pregnant women who know that they will be able to provide for their children, born or not born yet, are far less likely to have them.
Look at the prosperous countries of Europe, such as Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium,Austria, Switzerland, and Scandinavia.
They have the world’s LOWEST abortion rates. Why ? Because there’s far less poverty, and people have the sense to use contraceptives. Why can’t the US be more like this?
Pro-choicers don’t want more abortions; they want to prevent as many unwanted pregnancies as possible so that poor women will be far less likey to seek and obtain them.
there are better ways to help the poor than killing their babies.
Look at the prosperous countries of Europe, such as Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium,Austria, Switzerland, and Scandinavia.
depends upon what you mean by prosperous. These countries have low birthrates and their cultures are being replaced by Muslim culture.
The US wants to preserve it’s culture. It also has a strong Christian community which still believes that babies are a gift from God. Many of these couples believe in having a quiver full.
“The US wants to preserve it’s culture. ”
we do?
So Keyes is pushing around these strollers and bloody dolls too? Ambassador Alan Keyes? Wow…
“Look at the prosperous countries of Europe, such as Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium,Austria, Switzerland, and Scandinavia. They have the world’s LOWEST abortion rates.”
Where can I find statistics for these abortion rates?
try this Bobby:
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/index.html
also this:
http://data.un.org/Data.aspx?d=GenderStat&f=inID%3A12
Netherlands: 10.4/1000
Denmark: 14.3/1000
Austria: 1.3/1000 (Austria is a very Catholic country)
Belgium: 7.5/1000
Germany: 7.8/1000
The trouble with some of these statistics is that they chart the percentage of pregnancies aborted. That figure tells us nothing about the success of unwanted pregnancy reduction methods.
What we need to see is abortion rates per number of women of child bearing age.
Angel’s second site uses the right numbers. US is about 20 per 1000.
however in terms of birthrates per thousand women:
Germany is at the bottom with 8.18/1000 and the others are not much better:
Austria has 8.66/1000
Switzerland 9.62/1000
Belgium 10.22/1000
Netherlands 10.53/1000
yes Hal, the US does have a culture to preserve: Judeo-christian culture.
have to go: back later :)
Sexually disordered people are equal to others ONLY when Chastity and Homosexuality are practiced TOGETHER. Do the disordered deserve respect and compassion? Yes, but make no mistake; they are seriously flawed in their desires for same-sex relations and the equality sought in present day causes is unnatural, anti-family, human depravity.
Chapters 2357-2359 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church proscribe homosexual relations. This is not some new, made-up prohibition. It is ancient in its conception and eternal in its application. I have relatives who have committed “same-sex marriage.” The majority of state governments and I do not recognize their “marriage,” but I love them as brothers and sisters in God’s Holy Family in spite of their persistent, obstinate, manifest rejection of Divine, natural, and secular laws. Moreover, I shall NEVER accept same-sex “marriage” on a par with traditional marriage as God implemented it from time immemorial and as human existence can conceive it.
Recognition of illicit and invalid marriages between same-sex couples is being pushed by a small minority of people at the expense of Judeo-Christian ethics and behaviors. STOP IT NOW!
I did not say that Terry is a racial bigot, but a bigot against homosexuals.
And he’s much more ijnterested in power, and oppressing p[oor women that “saving babies”.
Government subsidies to minorities CAUS
Posted by: Robert Berger at May 8, 2009 11:03 AM
“Be not deceived, neither …effeminate [Gk: malakos-catamite/boy with man sex] shall inherit the kingdom of God” (I Cor. 6:9-10).
“Be not deceived, neither …abusers of themselves with mankind [Gk: arsenokoites-sodomites/male bed partners/male-liers] shall inherit the kingdom of God” (I Cor. 6:9-10).
Looks like another bible hating poster.
This is entirely unfair- we cannot advocate equality for the unborn child without advocating equality for homosexuals, too. God loves them just as much as anyone else. They may not be perfect- but no one is. They can go to Heaven by having a relationship with Jesus, not someone of the opposite gender.
Austria is “very catholic”? Only 9% of austrians attend mass weekly.
Hi gang,
many years ago, I worked with teens – young adults. During our time together, we’d give each other hugs. In many ways this little action spoke very loudly (almost screamed) about the human deficiencies in our own society … in most modern societies …. we do NOT belong: either to each other ((it wasn’t unusual to find an 19yr old who hadn’t been hugged since the age of 10 – both females and males.)). There are an awful lot of jibes at Allan Keyes as doing the inappropriate activity. This may be valid!
So, I’ll give a little homework to you people … try to hug … your spouse; your kid (of any age or sex); your boss; your pastor (especially the one who talks and talks about love) AND DON’T FORGET TO HUG YOURSELF! I suspect Hal would have little trouble proclaiming his girls as ‘magnificent people’, but have a hard time applying that word to himself. He would not be alone!
Truth is it takes courage to hug and no courage at all to yell obscenities across a divide.
Looks like another bible hating poster.
Posted by: xppc at May 8, 2009 11:49 AM
If the bible is used to stop people in love from getting married, then there is much to hate there.
Look at it this way. The Catholic Church doesn’t recognize divorce. But people in the U.S. can get a divorce. The church says it doesn’t count for their purposes. That’s fine. Marriage can work the same way, the churches can decide for themselves whether they accept certain marriages, like they do now with the marriage of a divorced person. A remarried divorced person’s marriage isn’t recognized by the Church. No harm done. That person still gets the civil benefits of marriage. Fair enough?
John —
I love what you wrote. There is something so therapeutic about being touched by another human being.
Have you seen this?
http://www.freehugscampaign.org/
John, good advice. It occurred to me about a year ago that I hadn’t been hugging my girls as much. I’ve made an effort to do it more, and it is certainly a good way to maintain positive contact.
As for myself, I’ll be content to bask in the love of my family.
Have a great day everyone.
John, John! Welcome back.
Was wondering where you’ve been.
How can you accuse me of being a bigot for speaking the truth about that monster Randall Terry? Saying this doesn’t mean that I hate Christians or Christianity. I do not.
I don’t hate the people on this website who express their disapproval of abortion. That’s their right. O don’t hate those who oppose abortion rights. I just disagree with them strongly. I’m not opposed to Terry because of his anti-abortion stance.
I’m opposed to him because he’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
This self-righteous hypocrite claims to be a godly and moral man, but Hitler also claimed to be doing the right thing in slaughtering the Jews(and I ‘m a Jew,though non-observant.).
If any of you on this website think that Terry is in any way a good and moral man, you are hopelessly deluded.
I don’t hate him. I FEAR this man.
I’m also utterly opposed to Alan Keyes, but I don’t think he’s anywhere near as evil. But I am utterly opposed to what he advocates for America. I don’t condemn him for being a Catholic. That’s certainly his right. But god forbid that he would ever be elected US president. Keyes is still a religious fanatic,though, and that is not the type we need in US politics.
Hitler also claimed to be doing the right thing in slaughtering the Jews(and I ‘m a Jew,though non-observant.).
________________________
Robert, comparing pro-life activism to Hitler and the slaughtering of the Jews is…well, frankly, backward.
Pro-lifers are trying to STOP what we believe to be the unwarranted slaughter of millions of innocents who have NO SAY in the matter…which is what happened to the Jews. Their voices were not heard and they were helpless to defend themselves against the barbarism of the Nazis.
You can argue all you want that unborn human beings aren’t human and shouldn’t have rights, but making that argument equates *you* more with Hitler than it does those of us who are pro-life. Hitler’s law agreed with his viewpoint at the time, too. That didn’t mean the law was just.
I’m not defending Randall Terry. I have heard only of his reputation and frankly, I know very little about the man. I’m just saying your comparisons are totally skewed.
Austria is “very catholic”? Only 9% of austrians attend mass weekly.
Posted by: thomas at May 8, 2009 12:10 PM
yes thomas it WAS very Catholic. However, Germany and Austria have suffered through some terrible “liberation” theologians and clergy who have destroyed much of the faith of Catholics in these two countries.
I’m thinking that while abortion numbers are low in Austria, reflecting the catholic dislike for abortion, they are a lot who are totally sold on contraception as evidenced by their non-replacement birth rate.
This is bizarre to me. Parading around images of aborted fetuses is fine and well and conducive to your cause, but pushing around strollers with ketchup-covered dolls is crossing some sort of unseen line? What’s the difference?
No, Mr. Berger, you are not a bigot because of how you feel about pro-lifers. You are a bigot because of how you feel and act towards the unborn.
However, you can ask Jesus to forgive you and heal you. He can give you love in your heart instead of hate. He wants you to turn from evil and embrace Him.
The pictures of aborted babies are real.
This is bizarre to me. Parading around images of aborted fetuses is fine and well and conducive to your cause, but pushing around strollers with ketchup-covered dolls is crossing some sort of unseen line? What’s the difference?
Posted by: MrB at May 8, 2009 1:17 PM
the dolls with ketchup do not reflect the reality of abortion- this is mere theatrics.
We want people to truly understand what happens during an abortion: a baby dies and that baby is NOT a bunch of cells. It was a living human being who was dismembered.
Had I received a warning such as Mr. Keyes is reported to have received, I think I would also be sorely tempted to test the resolve of those doing the threatening. Other than that, being arrested is no big deal, unless you are arrested in the defense of the unborn. The unborn are indirectly involved in Obama’s being honored at ND, so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt.
“Under a government who would imprison any unjustly, the true place of a just man is also a prison”. R.W. Emerson
“the dolls with ketchup do not reflect the reality of abortion- this is mere theatrics.”
Would you be alright with him pushing around a stroller with an actual aborted fetus in it that he recovered from an abortion clinic? Just wondering, because to me all protests involve some level of “theatrics,” using symbols and images and words to represent a cause.
How can you accuse me of being a bigot for speaking the truth about that “monster” Randall Terry? Saying this doesn’t mean that I hate Christians or Christianity. I do not.
I don’t hate the people on this website who express their disapproval of abortion. That’s their right. O don’t hate those who oppose abortion rights. I just disagree with them strongly. I’m not opposed to Terry because of his anti-abortion stance.
Give us some killings in numbers.
You seem to be an enemy of truth and facts.
Dr Keyes
Terry
Dr Tiller
Hitler
I would say Terry isn’t a monster. Tiller the Killer is the monster.
Romans 1 says those that conde the depravity are a party to it.
It is sin to condone homosexuality and abortion.
People that lie and say it isn’t are sinning by lying.
Honest people use scripture to interpret scripture. It is the Truth and the LIFE.
Pro deathers are anti life.
Robert Berger @11:03AM, worldwide abortion rates indicate the frequency of abortions in various countries and nothing more. One important difference rates don’t take into account is the variety of laws across the globe. Take Germany for example, where there are requirements for counseling, a second opinion, and waiting periods. Abortions after 12 weeks gestation are generally difficult to obtain. Comparing data from a country with more restrictive legislation to a country with less restriction is like comparing apples and oranges.
I’ll grant you that income and contraceptives are factors related to international abortion rates, but you’re spinning your own agenda to state that these factors alone account for lower abortion rates in other countries.
“the dolls with ketchup do not reflect the reality of abortion- this is mere theatrics.”
Would you be alright with him pushing around a stroller with an actual aborted fetus in it that he recovered from an abortion clinic? Just wondering, because to me all protests involve some level of “theatrics,” using symbols and images and words to represent a cause.
Posted by: MrB at May 8, 2009 1:50 PM
no MRB. Because this would be yet another indignity to this little child – committing an indigity to a dead body is a crime.
You might be interested to know though that in the 1970’s at a rabid feminist conference in France and abortion was done and the dead baby was placed in a bottle and brought into the conference hall to the cheering of hundreds of feminists. Very pathetic indeed. :(
How could that happen, Angel? That’s terrible! Poor child!
“no MRB. Because this would be yet another indignity to this little child – committing an indigity to a dead body is a crime.”
So then is using pictures of these dead bodies to promote the pro-life position not also committing an indignity as well?
No Mr. B because there is a large difference between a dead body and a picture of a dead body. You show respect for the physical body by not parading it around, but you are not disrespecting the physical body by showing pictures of it.
It is one thing to show pictures of a giant heap of dead soldiers to expose the horrors of war, yet quite another to bring the dead bodies of soldiers on tour.
One of the Vatican’s highest ranked clerics and a frequent critic of President Obama said Friday that Notre Dame is causing a “scandal” by giving the president an honorary degree and a platform to address graduates at its commencement next weekend.
‘The proposed granting of an honorary doctorate at Notre Dame University to our president, who is so aggressively advancing an anti-life and anti-family agenda, is rightly the source of the greatest scandal,” said Archbishop Raymond Burke, who is the prefect of the Apostolic Signatura, the Vatican’s highest court
Let’s redirect the scandal to the primary parties. Mr Hussein Obama and the dude that invited him.
So then is using pictures of these dead bodies to promote the pro-life position not also committing an indignity as well?
Posted by: MrB at May 8, 2009 2:53 PM
************************************
Do museums commit an indignity by showing displays of Holocaust victims’ photos?
do you understand what we are trying to say Mr.B?
‘We’ll see how many pro-lifers actually turn out for this. I’m thinking the release is attempting to bloat involvement.’
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation/AP/story/1039004.html
Gee, doesn’t look overinflated to me.
People told Martin Luther King, Jr he was hurting the cause too but we all know he certainly wasn’t. All human injustices that have been beaten have been because of people who were willing to take the risk of losing their freedom and their reputation among men.
“It is one thing to show pictures of a giant heap of dead soldiers to expose the horrors of war, yet quite another to bring the dead bodies of soldiers on tour.”
So you wouldn’t consider it offensive, tasteless and wrong of me if I was to somehow acquire pictures of recently killed soldiers in Iraq and use these to protest the Iraq War?
“Do museums commit an indignity by showing displays of Holocaust victims’ photos?”
Museums are not promoting a movement or cause, they’re archiving history for present and future generations. I think there’s a distinct difference here.
Perhaps we would have had President Alan Keyes as the first African-American President if the people of Illinois would have voted differently in the 2004 senate race.
And as President, Mr. Keyes may have been delivering the commencement speech and receiving the honorary degree this month at Notre Dame instead.
“For want of a nail, the shoe was lost…” — Benjamin Franklin
Anti-abortionists like to show grisly photos of aborted fetuses. Sure, they look horrible. But why don’t you look at photos of desoerately poor poor kids who HAVE been born, but are starving to death and living in abject poverty. If they had been aborted, they wouldn’t have had to live such miserable and hopeless lives.
Most abortions take place in the first rimester, before a fetus can even feel pain. What anti-choice people call”partial birth abortion” isn’t even a recognized medical term. These are late term abortions, necessary for medical reasons, and very rare. That term is just a nasty-sounding invention of the anti-choice movement.
Recently,I saw a book of political cartoons mostly from the Reagan era. It showed Reagan delivering an anti-abortion speech to n audience of”pro-lifers”.
Behind Reagan,unseen to the audience, was a small,poor boy begging for food and help. But Reaan whispers to him angrily-“Don’t bother me kid, you’re already born. You’re on your own”.
What a hypocrite! This shows hoe hypocritical conservative republican “Pro-lifers” are.
This shows his utter hypocrisy.
“So you wouldn’t consider it offensive, tasteless and wrong of me if I was to somehow acquire pictures of recently killed soldiers in Iraq and use these to protest the Iraq War?”
No, of course not. In fact, this is one good way to get people to realize the horrors of war. Same thing for slavery and the Nazi concentration camps. A picture is worth 1000 words.
Jill,
Please publicise the American Life League petition http://all.org/ndpetition/ to Bishop D’Arcy to remove ND from the Catholic Directory. This would obviate any need Terry or Keyes would feel to protest. If ND was no longer to be considered Catholic, then it would be like Obama speaking at U Penn – not an issue for Catholics.
Terry and Keyes are rightly protesting the issue of scandal, which the Bishop can remedy.
The students’ demonstrations are tepid and low-volume, not matching the tenor of what is needed. Most of the students want Obama there. This is giving scandal to the nation and to the world. Whether you like their tactics or not, Terry and Keyes are responding to the fact of the scandal.
The prolife students and faculty of ND should let go. If ND wants to be Catholic, it should *earn back* the right.
“Recently,I saw a book of political cartoons mostly from the Reagan era. It showed Reagan delivering an anti-abortion speech to n audience of”pro-lifers”. Behind Reagan,unseen to the audience, was a small,poor boy begging for food and help. But Reaan whispers to him angrily-“Don’t bother me kid, you’re already born. You’re on your own”. What a hypocrite! This shows hoe hypocritical conservative republican “Pro-lifers” are. This shows his utter hypocrisy.”
Robert, are you REALLY calling pro-lifers hypocrites based off of what you saw in a political cartoon?
As pro-life activists, we have more than one mission: all of children’s rights must be acknowledged. This includes not just the right to be recognized as individuals with universal rights outside of their mother’s choices, but the right to a quality education, the right to healthcare, et cetera.
We have an awful lot of work to do to aggrandize children’s rights and status around the world. Sad day. But hopeful.
Dear Mr. Berger,
Have you ever met Randol Terry or Alan Keyes?
Have you ever listened to anything they have said or written………unfiltered through the lame scream media?
The pro-slavery folks made the same kinds of comments about the abolitionists, though few of the ‘slavers’ had ever met an abolitionists face to face.
I myself have never met Terry or Keyes, but I have heard them speak and I have read their writings. I have never heard either man advocate violence or hate against anyone. Terry is ‘intolerant’ of what he understands the bible indicates ‘sin’ to be.
Mr. Berger you seem to have very little tolerance for people who do not share your ambiguous moral code.
If you ‘choose’ not to view pre-natal children as fellow human beings, then I can see where Terry and Keyes, might challenge the bliss of your ignoracne.
If Terry or Keyes have trespassed against you or you know of someone they have ‘harmed’ then implement the Matthew 18 corrective that Jesus advocated.
When you have exhausted that conflict resolution process then come back here with your ‘witnesses’ and re-introduce your indictment of Terry and Keyes.
That would be the ‘christian’ thing to do.
Or you can continue to ignore your own sin while throwing all the verbal stones in your petty little arsenal.
yor bro ken
“Recently,I saw a book of political cartoons mostly from the Reagan era. It showed Reagan delivering an anti-abortion speech to n audience of”pro-lifers”.
Behind Reagan,unseen to the audience, was a small,poor boy begging for food and help. But Reaan whispers to him angrily-“Don’t bother me kid, you’re already born. You’re on your own”.
What a hypocrite! This shows hoe hypocritical conservative republican “Pro-lifers” are.”
“This shows his utter hypocrisy.”
Posted by: Robert Berger at May 8, 2009 3:44 PM
——————————————————–
Now there is some un-impeachable logic, based on empiracle data.
Pardon me if I don’t give your ‘views’ any serious consideration.
yor bro ken
I can’t understand the argument pro aborts make that it is better to kill the baby than let it grow up in poverty.
Yes there are children living in proverty but there also are middle aged people and elderly living that way too. Including Barry’s own aunt who lives in the US illegally!
And to use a CARTOON as an example of hypocracy makes no sense either. How did you know Reagan had no compassion for the poor? Or any other pro life people?
I think pro aborts use this argument to justify their “choice” of abortion. Many pro life people believe in helping babies AFTER they are born as well. But our first priority is preventing them from being killed in the first place.
He is giving prolifers a bad name, encouraging people to trespass. Private property law are not unjust. His publicity stunt puts the focus on HIM, and away from the true victims. Disgusting.
…and the dolls with fake blood impugns the dignity of the actual human beings that were killed. Can you imagine if someone piled up mannequins and ketchup to protest Holocaust deniers?
Bad form.
Museums are not promoting a movement or cause, they’re archiving history for present and future generations. I think there’s a distinct difference here.
Posted by: MrB at May 8, 2009 3:43 PM
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We’re not promoting a “movement” or “cause” either, MrB. We are talking about a crucial civil rights issue of our day. This is about denying that certain human beings are, in fact, human.
And if you think museums can’t be political or ideological, I’ve got some oceanfront property in Oklahoma to sell you.
Go Personhood,
You are absolutely correct!!
“Christians are merely called to witness!” Alan Keyes
May 8, 2009
http://hotairpundit.blogspot.com/2009/05/dr-alan-keyes-receives-trespass-warning.html
…and the dolls with fake blood impugns the dignity of the actual human beings that were killed. Can you imagine if someone piled up mannequins and ketchup to protest Holocaust deniers?
Bad form.
Posted by: Milehimama at May 8, 2009 4:23 PM
I agree with you!
And see, the problem is that some have relegated this to being a matter of “opinion” rather than fact, i.e. referring to it as “the pro-life position.”
Fact: Fetuses are human beings.
Fact: Fetuses are not “potentially” alive, they ARE alive.
Fact: Because they reside in a certain place (the womb) they are denied their right to life by other, stronger members of our society.
Because the “pro-choice position” continues to deny the humanity of the unborn, we use photos and scientific fact to prove that our “position” is, in fact, scientifically TRUE. The facts I posted are not up for debate.
What is up for debate is whether or not it is just to continue to deprive human beings of their rights simply because other voices outweigh theirs (which cannot be heard).
Kel, I don’t think anyone can argue you down on that one!
Let’s see – MLK is remembered for his letters from a Burmingham (SP) jail. If we truly believe (as I do) that abortion and slavery are the same, what would we do if we were talking about human slavery rather than abortion? Imagine, if you will, 300 Bishops writing letters from x jail. I am Catholic and would gladly join them. Can we not just stop the killing? I think we can. Slavery equals abortion. Let’s have it out.
Robert Berger 3:44PM
If abortion solves the problem of poverty, why does it still exist??
Also, what are PC people doing themselves to eliminate poverty, other than suggesting that the poor should be disposed of?
You were saying something about hypocrisy?
I just heard on Fox News that Liberals are challenging the right of people to have licence plates that say “choose life” because it is too “contraversial” and “offensive.”
Simply taking a stand for life is offensive?
God help us!
Robert Berger, a little ways up this thread, you said that you wanted abortion to be reduced in the US. Why do you want them to be reduced?
Joanne, 5:27 they’re only pro-one choice.
You’re right Bethany.
Mary…. that was a great post!
Good for you both for risking a lot to bring abortion to people’s attention. I am hoping to go to the protest on the 17th. I will also try very hard not to get arrested. It takes a lot of guts to go into a situation that you know might get you thrown in jail. I also think the graphic pictures are a great idea. If people can’t look at them, they shouldn’t allow abortions to occur. These babies did not die by accident – they were murdered.
Jill is afraid this is going to turn into a “circus and a publicity stunt”. LMAO
Jill is the head ringmaster, and has dedicated the last two months to making this into the biggest circus/publicity stunt in the midwest!
26 protestors were arrested today, no doubt for “quietly praying”, so bring out the clown car, and let the circus begin!
There is a difference between intentionally trespassing, and exercising free speech rights on public property.
I agree with some other Catholic bloggers that there should be a Eucharistic procession during Obama’s speech, a la Jericho and the walls tumbling down.
I’m against grandstanding to put the focus on the personalities of the protestors, instead of making the public stop and consider the humanity of the victims.
Publicity stunts interfere with empathy, and it’s only by changing hearts that abortion can be stopped.
If they had been aborted, they wouldn’t have had to live such miserable and hopeless lives.
Robert Berger, Margaret Sanger would be proud of you. You are saying that the socially disadvantaged should be terminated.
Most abortions take place in the first rimester, before a fetus can even feel pain.
So the ability to feel pain determines humanity and civil rights? By those standards, anyone under general anesthesia could be dismembered alive.
These are late term abortions, necessary for medical reasons
If they were medically necessary to save the mother’s life, labor could be induced or a c-section could be performed and the child delivered alive. There’d be no need to interrupt the procedure to kill the child before continuing to “save the mother’s life.” The extra step of killing the child is not essential in saving the mother’s life. Live birth is also a termination of pregnancy, Robert. But terminating pregnancy isn’t the real goal here, it’s killing the preborn child.
No such thing as bad publicity. This does draw attention to what is going on in this country every single day. Does anyone remember John Brown? He was “crazy” but whether you like it or not, he brought attention to the plight of slaves as much as anyone else did.
Speaking of publicity stunts and circuses, ironically Jill’s heroes, Bob Enyart and Ken Scott are on trial today in Colorado Springs for trespassing at Focus on the Family, to protest against their nemesis, James Dobson.
You will recall that throughout 2007 and 2008, Jill breathlessly promoted every publicity stunt by Bob and Ken, including threats of crimes against neighbors of subcontractors who worked on the Denver Planned Parenthood project, trespassing, disruption of church services, trying to stop the Komen Cancer walk, etc.
Bob, Ken and Jill love publicity stunts and circuses. It keeps their names in the news.
Weren’t they protesting on a public sidewalk in front of the contractor’s house?
I’m not intimately familiar with the story.
Bystander, I’ve often wondered how much of this is for PR and how much of this is for real. Alan Keyes…. I wonder if he has a job. How does he pay the bills…. and Jill, what would she do for a living if abortion was made illegal? What would come next? Thats the folly of devoting your life to “a cause”, when the cause is over, what becomes of you?
At least Jessie Jackson is a Reverend, he has that to fall back on. But Alan Keyes, between all his failed presidential campaigns, what good has come of his doctoral degree, and I wonder he got his doctorate in?
Keyes earned his PhD in government affairs from some no-name, unaccredited school called Harvard in 1979, having written a dissertation on Alexander Hamilton and constitutional theory, under Harvey C. Mansfield.
What kind of moron gets a doctorate from Harvard?
Yes, we all oppose abortion because there’s so much money in that racket.
If they were medically necessary to save the mother’s life, labor could be induced or a c-section could be performed and the child delivered alive. There’d be no need to interrupt the procedure to kill the child before continuing to “save the mother’s life.” The extra step of killing the child is not essential in saving the mother’s life. Live birth is also a termination of pregnancy, Robert. But terminating pregnancy isn’t the real goal here, it’s killing the preborn child.
Posted by: Fed Up at May 8, 2009 7:00 PM
This is exactly what I maintain. But we have “doctors” like Tiller who use the “health” excuse to kill viable babies.
And isn’t it amazing how pro aborts do nothing but slander pro life people? They can’t possibly justify the slaughter of innocent babies so they continually shoot the messenger.
I guess they have to try and ease their conscience somehow. Does it make you feel better to name call?
There are OTHER life causes besides abortion in the Pro Life movement, Abortion is just a MAJOR one right now. Others include preventing assisted suicide and euthanasia (like preventing another Terri Schindler like FORCED-DEHYDRATION death) and being against the destruction of human embryos for research.
Bob, Ken and Jill love publicity stunts and circuses
Publicity stunts and manufactured crises are part of PBHO’s playbook. I’m sure he feels right at home.
Pro-lifers,
Great comments!
“Yes, we all oppose abortion because there’s so much money in that racket.”
LOL.
Posted by: Yo La Tengo at May 8, 2009 7:27 PM
“At least Jessie Jackson is a Reverend, he has that to fall back on.”
—————————————————-
Jesse has his ‘revered end’ to fall on.
The everRant Jesse Jackson, who wanted to castrate then candidate bho, because bo-ho was talking down to the homies on Jesse’s liberal and progressive plantation is a fine ‘christian’ gentleman.
Talkin’ bout yor self servin’ poverty pimp who has elevated the shake down to an art form.
Jesse is the kind of ‘preacherman’ that Jesus and the apostle Paul cautioned us about.
Jesse is all about devouring widows sustenance, preying on weak women (and spawning fatherless children in the process), going about in ‘revered-end’s’ robes, clanging symbols and blowing a trumpet to announce his coming and seeking the seats of honor to be seen and heard by men who wield the reins of power and influence.
And do not forget Jesse Sr. tryin’ to persuade the son of a Blagjovich to appoint Jesse Jr. to the United States Senate seat vacated by then president elect bho.
And of course Jesse Sr. did it all for the sake of the ‘children’, acknowledged and not.
yor bro ken
Posted by: Bobby Bambino at May 8, 2009 7:36 PM
“What kind of moron gets a doctorate from Harvard?”
—————————————————-
Barrak Hussein Obama!
yor bro ken
They ought to give Alan Keyes a Laetare Medal-not to mention a tenured professorship–as being just about the only Catholic politician openly opposed to artificial contraception.
But what do we expect from a university that’s on New Ways Ministry’s directory of “gay friendly” Catholic Universities?
YLT 7:27, good comments, the simple fact is that publicity stunts make money. Bob Enyart hasn’t had a real job for 25 years, and doesn’t plan to go back to work. Every stunt causes someone to get out their checkbook to support the “cause”.
For every dollar they make, and for every borderline personality “follower” they attract, these stunts and circuses earn the contempt of thousands of people, so the goal is money and publicity, not the “cause”.
What kind of person votes for a Barrak Hussein Obama to be President of the United States and Commander In Chief of it’s armed forces?
It is a rhetorical question, but the clues to the answer are plentiful in the preceding posts.
yor bro ken
Posted by: Bystander at May 8, 2009 8:13 PM
“For every dollar they make, and for every borderline personality “follower” they attract, these stunts and circuses earn the contempt of thousands of people, so the goal is money and publicity, not the “cause”.”
——————————————————-
At least people have ‘choice’ in whether or not they contribute to the aforementioned folk.
Taxpayers have their money confiscated from them to support partisan organizations like PP and ACORN.
yor bro ken
For every dollar they make, and for every borderline personality “follower” they attract, these stunts and circuses earn the contempt of thousands of people, so the goal is money and publicity, not the “cause”.
Posted by: Bystander at May 8, 2009 8:13 PM BINGO! That must be it!
Jesse Jackson has not had real job in years unless you count shakin’ down the man and spawin’ fatherless children. Jesse did mention somethin’ about goin’ into the oupatient surgical business.
Jesse may find some great business opportunities in the spring months in Washington State when ‘asses may be found running at large’ and in need of some aftermarket surgical modification. (Hillary and Bill are you payin’ attention.)
“Horses, mules, and asses running at large: Chapter 16.24 RCW.
RCW 16.24.180
Castration or gelding of stock at large.”
yor bro ken
Bystander and YLT,
I am going to go out on the broken limb of progressive liberal humanism and venture a guess that neither of you have heard the ‘pop’…………….yet.
I am ever hopeful that you will hear the sweetness of the sound that is music to every sane person’s ears.
The ‘pop’ is sweetness and light and the unsearchable joy of being set free.
yor bro ken
Leslie,
“Christians are merely called to witness!” Alan Keyes
May 8, 2009
http://hotairpundit.blogspot.com/2009/05/dr-alan-keyes-receives-trespass-warning.html
Thank you for posting the video link. Keyes articulates his message so well. I can’t wait to hear more from him.
“Keyes earned his PhD in government affairs from some no-name, unaccredited school called Harvard in 1979, having written a dissertation on Alexander Hamilton and constitutional theory, under Harvey C. Mansfield.
What kind of moron gets a doctorate from Harvard?”
Here’s the better question: what kind of moron who has a doctorate from Harvard spends his time pushing around strollers with ketchup-covered dolls in them in an effort to get intentionally arrested for trespassing on private property after he’s been ordered to stay away?
“Yes, we all oppose abortion because there’s so much money in that racket.”
Well there sure as hell is for some people. Where would a guy like James Dobson get his millions if not for hawking his “social conservatism” on stuff like abortion and gay marriage?
Oh, I see…people who espouse social liberalism aren’t “hawking” it or making any money off of it. Wow, how did I never see *that* before?
I mean, I guess liberal news anchors and liberal writers and radio and talk show hosts aren’t doing it for profit at all.
They’re pure as the driven snow.
I guess they don’t need “real” jobs like those who have “conservative” values. Their jobs are “important” simply because they’re liberal.
James Dobson is a psychologist and author, too. But I guess that doesn’t count, because he’s conservative…
Bystander,
Do you even have a clue what you’re talking about when you refer to “borderline personalities”?
Just so you know, borderlines are not inclined to follow much of anything, and tend to be extremely obstinate and contrary people.
James Dobson is a psychologist and author, too. But I guess that doesn’t count, because he’s conservative…
Posted by: Kel at May 8, 2009 10:20 PM
It doesn’t count because he’s got a screw loose.
“Oh, I see…people who espouse social liberalism aren’t “hawking” it or making any money off of it. Wow, how did I never see *that* before?
I mean, I guess liberal news anchors and liberal writers and radio and talk show hosts aren’t doing it for profit at all.
They’re pure as the driven snow.
I guess they don’t need “real” jobs like those who have “conservative” values. Their jobs are “important” simply because they’re liberal.
James Dobson is a psychologist and author, too. But I guess that doesn’t count, because he’s conservative…”
You’re reading pretty far into my post. I didn’t say anything about people who promote social liberalism. I didn’t even make any generalization about social conservatives–I simply countered the notion that there isn’t money to be made in promoting social conservatism, because there most certainly is–that’s where James Dobson comes into the equation as a high-profile example, who you seem to be unnecessarily defensive of–I don’t think I impugned Mr. Dobson’s good name by saying that social conservatism made him a wealthy man.
Keyes earned his PhD in government affairs from some no-name, unaccredited school called Harvard in 1979, having written a dissertation on Alexander Hamilton and constitutional theory, under Harvey C. Mansfield.
What kind of moron gets a doctorate from Harvard?
Posted by: Bobby Bambino at May 8, 2009 7:36 PM
And of course Keyes only got in because of Affirmative Action and MUST have had someone write his dissertation for him.
Taxpayers have their money confiscated from them to support partisan organizations like PP and ACORN.
yor bro ken
Posted by: kbhvac at May 8, 2009 8:18 PM
CORRECTION:
Taxpayers have their money confiscated from them to support ineffective programs like abstinence only education.
You tell him Mary!!!
Bystander,
Do you even have a clue what you’re talking about when you refer to “borderline personalities”?
Just so you know, borderlines are not inclined to follow much of anything, and tend to be extremely obstinate and contrary people.
Posted by: Mary at May 8, 2009 10:24 PM
Mary, if you can identify sociopaths without meeting them, I don’t see a problem with Bystander diagnosing some protesters as having borderline personality disorder.
Well put, Hal. Well put indeed.
Hi Erin! You’re up late
Mary, you took the high road despite the big opening bystander left to do otherwise. I’m proud of you, but it’s time for me to get back to spinning on my attention-seeking, money-grubbing, contemptuous, uncommited-to-the-cause, pro-life Axis II now ;)
Hal- Always! Finals week comin’ up, hooooo boy.
depends upon what you mean by prosperous. These countries have low birthrates and their cultures are being replaced by Muslim culture.
The US wants to preserve it’s culture. It also has a strong Christian community which still believes that babies are a gift from God. Many of these couples believe in having a quiver full.
Posted by: angel at May 8, 2009 11:11 AM
so you’re admitting you’re a racist… how can babies be a gift from God if you don’t like muslims>….. they have babies too.
Milehi, 4:23p, wrote: “…and the dolls with fake blood impugns the dignity of the actual human beings that were killed. Can you imagine if someone piled up mannequins and ketchup to protest Holocaust deniers? Bad form.”
Great comment. Great analogy. Helping me identify my discomfort with Terry’s tactics.
Bystander, I’ve often wondered how much of this is for PR and how much of this is for real. Alan Keyes…. I wonder if he has a job. How does he pay the bills…. and Jill, what would she do for a living if abortion was made illegal? What would come next? Thats the folly of devoting your life to “a cause”, when the cause is over, what becomes of you?
We would have a normal life. Imagine all the women who won’t suffer from their abortions. Imagine all the babies who won’t be dismembered and will be enjoying a beautiful spring day, growing in the love of God. Imagine the fathers who took the high road and are supporting and nurturing their children. Imagine a country with a future – millions of living children who will grow up to be productive citizens, make great discoveries, be good moms and dads, defend the country, comfort their parents, worship God, plant a tree….
The possibilities are endless.
Weekend question
This is the last time I’m going to mention Alan Keyes or Randall Terry as they relate to the Notre Dame scandal unless they do something really outrageous. Both have done great good for the pro-life movement in the past….
“But why don’t you look at photos of desoerately poor poor kids who HAVE been born, but are starving to death and living in abject poverty. If they had been aborted, they wouldn’t have had to live such miserable and hopeless lives.”
Conservatives give more to charities of many sorts than liberals, who expect the government to do it. I know many Christians who support poor children and/or missionaries who work to help them. Many of those who adopt underprivileged children from here or abroad are prolife. If you are talking about underprivileged children in the US, why are you against their mothers’ choice for life? That’s not pro-choice. If you are talking about in other countries, abortion was still often a choice their mothers rejected. Where abortion is illegal, most people object to it. Many of those children living in poverty were wanted and loved by their parents, and would not have been aborted were it an option. Many are in poverty because their parents have died. Their problem is that no one is taking care of them now, not that no one was willing to when they were born. How ethnocentric of you to assume that the problems of third-world countries are caused by a lack of abortion. After all, it has yet to eliminate poverty, neglect and child abuse here. What do you do about these problems? Or do you feel no need to do anything other than saying, “See? If she had killed that baby she loves, she wouldn’t have trouble feeding him.”
“What anti-choice people call ‘partial birth abortion’ isn’t even a recognized medical term. These are late term abortions, necessary for medical reasons, and very rare. That term is just a nasty-sounding invention of the anti-choice movement.”
Well, “termination of pregnancy” isn’t a “real” medical term, it’s just an innocuous-sounding euphemism fabricated by antilife Talibanesque terrorists. How could a three-day medical procedure be necessary and healthful when an emergency C-section takes only half an hour or so? Unlees by “medical reasons” you mean killing a disabled child.
YLT:
Muslim is a race? I thought it was a religion.
“Here’s the better question: what kind of moron who has a doctorate from Harvard spends his time pushing around strollers with ketchup-covered dolls in them in an effort to get intentionally arrested for trespassing on private property after he’s been ordered to stay away?”
One who cares about the unborn.
Hal 11:19PM
I would just like to know what criteria Bystander is using to determine these people are borderline personality disordered.
You have any idea??
Good Morning FedUp
Thank you.
Mary, Google “Ken Scott abortion” and read the articles, including the articles from Westword magazine, and this should give you some insight into the personality disorders of some who are attracted to the movement. Enjoy.
Bystander,
Again, please give me the specific criteria you use to determine these people suffer borderline personality disorder. Having spent my life with BPDs, including losing a daughter to the disorder, I would be very interested in your observations.
This was an expression, not a clinical diagnosis, some anti-choice extremists are prone to narcissistic personality disorder and associated sociopathic tendencies, like my example above.
I am sorry about your daughter and meant no offense.
Now Mary, perhaps you can admit that your slur against Obama as a sociopath was more an expression than a clinical diagnosis.
Since you have personally experienced the pain of people close to you suffering from personality disorders, I would hope that you of all people would not so carelessly toss such terms around.
Mary, I am so sorry about the loss of your daughter. I apologize if my comment about spinning on Axis II was offensive. I should know that humor and discussion of mental health issues rarely mix :(
some anti-choice extremists are prone to narcissistic personality disorder and associated sociopathic tendencies
bystander, Many activists, politicians, media figures, celebrities and others in the spotlight certainly come across in their public actions as having cluster B personality traits or disorders. It’s not fair to say it’s limited to “anti-choice extremists”. Psychopathology isn’t limited to one side of the political spectrum. Perhaps we can at least agree on that much.
You’re reading pretty far into my post. I didn’t say anything about people who promote social liberalism. I didn’t even make any generalization about social conservatives–I simply countered the notion that there isn’t money to be made in promoting social conservatism, because there most certainly is–that’s where James Dobson comes into the equation as a high-profile example, who you seem to be unnecessarily defensive of–I don’t think I impugned Mr. Dobson’s good name by saying that social conservatism made him a wealthy man.
Posted by: MrB at May 8, 2009 10:31 PM
**************************************
There is money to be made from just about every viewpoint. You mentioned James Dobson to imply that because he’s a conservative and he makes money off his views, somehow that’s wrong. It isn’t wrong, and liberals do the same thing. Or should Dobson be held to a higher standard, since he has the “conservative” label rather than a “liberal” one?
(Seems like non-Christians really enjoy telling the Christians what’s “right and moral” around here, which I find to be laughable, when you don’t really even know what we stand for beyond your own straw man arguments.)
And no, I’m not unnecessarily defensive about Dobson. You are the one who singled him out, remember? I simply responded to your implication. I haven’t listened to his program or read any of his books in years, though I enjoyed many of them when I did.
Let me clarify that I *read* your comment about James Dobson as an implication that it is wrong for a conservative to make money from his views.
If that wasn’t your point, I’m not sure why you mentioned him.
Bystander, what personality disorder do you have that attracts you to a pro-life blog every day?
Kel, let me spell this out very clearly for you.
Here is the statement I responded to:
“Yes, we all oppose abortion because there’s so much money in that racket.”
This is a sarcastic statement. The poster was implying that there is little or no money to be made in opposing abortion. I countered this by saying that there is, in fact, money to be made in this “racket” for some people, and I used a very obvious example of James Dobson. James Dobson has made a lot of money by promoting a social conservative viewpoint and one of the main features of this conservative viewpoint is his opposition to abortion.
The fact that there is “money to be made from just about every viewpoint” is not relevant because I’m not talking about “every viewpoint,” I’m specifically talking about the “pro-life” viewpoint. I’m talking about the “pro-life” viewpoint in this context because another poster specifically brought it up.
I would say you are being unnecessarily defensive of James Dobson because you are finding, in my posts, a condemnation of James Dobson where there is plainly none to be found. In order to find this supposed “implication that it is wrong for a conservative to make money from his views” you are intentionally reading into my posts something that is not there.
So let me then clarify that you did not *read* my comment so much as you *misread* it.
I am very familiar with both the writings and speeches of Randall Terry and Alan Keyes, and have visited their websites often. Individuals like this frighten me. You ask how many people they’ve killed.
They haven’t killed any one – YET !!!
If people like this got control over America, they would turn it into a brutally repressive totalitarian theocracy no better than Iran or Saido Arabis today, just a fundamentalist Christiian one.
Not only are they utterly opposed to abortion, they want to make contraception illegal, which would only greatly increase the numbers of abortions, and create a black market in contraceptives.
They are rabid homophobes. Gay people would not only lose their civil rights but be imprisoned and probably executed.
There would be absolutely no religious freedom in America. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists ,atheists, agnostics and others would be second-class citizens.
They would greatly increase the number of executions in America, and murder would NOT be the only justification for the death penalty. Any one who did not follow their religious decrees would be ruthlessly executed without die process of law at all, not only abortion doctors.
Terry IS another Hitler. He claims to be a man of god but makes a mockery of everything thast Christ stood for.
Don’t be gullible and support this evil monster.
If abortion were not legal in America topday, we would have many mopre poor people, not only children, than we do now.
In Brazil, which is the world’s largest Catholic nation, more abortions occur every year than in the US. Officially,abortion is illegal there, but the government doesn’t even try to enforce the law.It CANT.
And yes, if we could greatly reduce poverty in America, we could greatly reduce the numbers of abortions.
To say that conservatives give more to charity than liberals is ridiculous. Charities can’t reduce poverty in America, or anywhere else. or prevent abortions. Only the government can.
Ironically, under Obama, that supposed “baby-killer”, even though he has never caused a single abortion, and alleged supporter of “infanticide”, the abortion rate could decrease significantly.
And if Obama is such a horrible communist dictator, why isn’t Washington publishing Pravda? Why hasn’t the National Guard been gunning down all the tea party protesters, why haven’t large numbers of conservative Americans been arrested and executed? Why hasn’t the government shut down any churches, or destroyed them or used them for different purposes?
Why hasnt the government gone into our homes and confiscated guns?
Why are Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Sean hannity, Michelle Malkin and other conservative pundits still bad-mouthing Obama to their heart’s content?
How many women have been forced to have abortions?
Come on. Give me a break. And please don’t tell me that all this will start happening soon.
Robert,
Come on. Give us a break.
Bystander 10:43am
Thank you for your kind words. I take absolutely no offense. I often loosely use the terms “acting schizo” or “paranoid” on people who are not so afflicted. I consider myself very blessed that she is doing as well as can be expected, even better, and that I can share my knowledge of the disorder with parents who are flailing in the dark, as I was years ago.
They are often relieved to know the problems their children, usually daughters, are having may well have a name and neurological cause.
FedUp 12:39PM
Thank you for your kind words as well and please don’t be concerned. I honestly had no idea what you even meant :)
My daughter has been estranged from us for almost 5 years. I consider her lost to us as I know this disorder will never change. I also know trying to enter her life can only cause disruption in it. I can never take that chance.
As I said, I can be so thankful for how well she is doing under the circumstances and will leave her to her life.
I will be thinking of you tomorrow, Mary. Mother’s Day can be difficult for so many reasons. Thank you for sharing about your daughter. I would like a mother, if you are interested. :)
Hal 10:53
Don’t hold your breath. My “slur” was neither a clinical diagnosis or an expression. In fact my own daughter is sociopathic, not uncommon with borderlines.
I’m only stating the obvious my friend, and Obama fits the bill. Its like saying that recognizing Down’s Syndrome is a clinical diagnosis or a slur. Its simply the obvious.
BTW Hal, I must admit I’ve amazed myself more than once recognizing and naming a personality disorder, only to be proven correct, so don’t underestimate the power of observation.
I’ve told you before Hal and I’ll tell you again, look past that big smile and charming personna and you’ll see only an empty shell.
I’ll pray for you, Mr. Berger…
Carla 5:08PM
You’re very kind, thank you. Thank you for the offer. However, it looks like your mother did a wonderful job and I couldn’t improve upon it. There are parents with far bigger crosses to bear than I have so I have only reasons to be thankful.
Happy MOther’s Day to you and to everyone else on this blog.
I haven’t seen my mother in 7 years due to her abuse, but I thank you for your kind words!! :)
Alan Keyes is a modern hero. He deserves our full support. Perhaps now he will focus his complete attention on the pro-life movement. He is the perfect pro-life leader against the most despicable and ungodly president in our history.
A pro-life black man against a pro-death black man. Mr. Obama is turning out to be 1,000 per cent scarier that I imagined. He is stealing our country and our future generations and his hidden agenda of destroying our country from within is being revealed.
Carla 5:18PM
I’m sorry to hear this about your mother and sorry for you. I’m afraid I also stuck my foot in it.
Obviously you are the person you are in spite of her, not because of her as I had assumed.
You have every reason to be proud of that fact.
I would love to be your mother! You would make me very proud.
How could you know that, Mary? :) I get a chance to do it all over again with my children and give to them what I did not get. What a blessing!!
Your last sentence brought tears. Thank you.
Carla… I’ll be celebrating tomorrow with my children and MIL for much the same reasons. So here is my Happy Mother’s Day to you, my friend.
And Mary, having lived through my mother and my older brother struggling with bipolar disorder, I pegged it in one of my nursing school instructors and as a group, we complained to the administration that some of her manic behavior was causing problems for us in the clinical setting. (It didn’t hurt that our clinical group consisted of 8 girls, 3 of us had the three highest GPAs in the program and we all had good reputations with the administration for NOT complaining over trivial matters.) She had done things highly dangerous to the patients such as moving a PICC line on a patient AND breaking sterile technique on it which required that the patient undergo multiple imaging studies and re-placement of the PICC line in order to obtain medication (which was delayed by more than an hour due to the issue.)
When administration looked at our complaints and agreed, removing that instructor, she subsequently went the other direction and from what came through the grapevine, did great physical damage to herself. I feel very badly for how it turned out… but we were right about the diagnosis. No, none of us are psychologists, we were nursing students… but the traits were easily recognizable.
(Loved your DS analogy btw… my SIL has it and someone actually said once that it looked like she was “losing some of her Downs”… HUH????)
Carla, please don’t be sad. You are a great mother, and I stopped talking to my mother for 3 years. It was over something really stupid at that. I prayed, and mom just called yesterday and today! It was so good to hear from her, and God can, and will, fix any probl;ems we have. I’ll be praying for you. I love my mother, and she always loved me.
To hear her say it was great! However, I’m stubborn, so I refused to accept her apology for 3 years. I decided it was time to stop!
My mom and I live in different states.
I consider her lost to us as I know this disorder will never change.
Mary, never say never! If BPD is her primary dx, she may improve as she nears middle age. I’ve seen it many times :)
Heather, I like stories with happy endings. Thanks for sharing. Hope you and your mom have time to further mend fences tomorrow, even though it sounds like you won’t spend the day together.
Carla, every time I hear you reveal more of your life story, I marvel at the way you allow God’s grace to work in you.
I hope all you moms have a very nice Mother’s Day tomorrow.
Thanks Elisabeth! And Heather! I am glad you are back together with your mom!!
I am not sad for me. I am sad for her. She hates me. I get that. She missed out on some awesome grandchildren and ME! I do wish her well and pray for her often.
Thank you, Fed Up!! All because of Him!!
Happy Mother’s Day everyone! :)
My children and husband are acting very sneaky right now so I better do my part and keep commenting!! LOL
Carla, I’m so sorry to hear you say that your mother hates you. I find that impossible. I’m gonna pray for you and her. Thanks to all of the well wishers:]…Another pal of mine is in the same boat as you are Carla. She is one of triplets, and she feels that her mom hates her. I’m praying for her too. It happens in God’s time.
Happy Mother’s day to all of the moms!!!!
Though my father and mother forsake me, the Lord will receive me. Psalm 27:10
That verse has significance to me because of the home I was raised in, but also for Aubrey my daughter that I aborted and the thousands of babies that are aborted every day.
It’s ok, Heather. My mother has her own issues and I see her now more as a very troubled individual. God has sent amazing “mother figures” to stand in the gap and He heals my soul through them!!
Ok, MrB. Whatever.
Let me assure you that people in the public eye who make money off from the pro-life audience suffer otherwise. I’m not sure it’s a fair trade.
I think I’ll go roll around in all the dough I made from the pro-life jobs I’ve held in the past. You have a nice night.
Hi, Carla!
I’m sorry about what happened to you in the past, but it is wonderful that you are fighting to help others now. It’s good that God gave you figures to look up to. Just curious: your philosophy on abortion- is it based strictly on your experiences or is it rooted in part in other human rights struggles? :).
People can be scared of being pro-life and hide in their pro-life closets for so long that they (like myself) start to round up many reasons for being pro-life: they see the effects of poverty, they read of women who died, they get repulsed by the racism that feeds abortion, et cetera. Was this your experience, too? :).
Hi Elisabeth 6:21PM
Thank you for a very interesting account. Your observations and actions likely saved lives, and hopefully one day the woman will get the help she needs.
Hi Fed Up 6:54PM
Thank you for your words of support. Are you thinking of bipolar disorder which is treatable and people can stabilize? The theory behind that is a chemical imbalance.
Personality disorder involves brain wiring and perception disorder and may very well be inborn. Personally, I’m convinced it can be genetic, just from observing my own family.
Just as you and I can’t alter our personalities or how we perceive the world, neither can one who is personality disordered. Just like you and I, they see no problem with themselves or how they perceive the world. Treating them can be a long drawn out process and likely won’t be successful. They have to be very committed to treatment.
Ironically, these are often highly intelligent people who by all appearances function normally.
The best example is the Alex character in “Fatal Attraction”. While she is an extreme and not typical borderline PD, she nonetheless displays the traits. While “Dan” perceived the relationship as a weekend fling, as did most of us viewers, “Alex” processed the whole situation differently in her mind. Nothing “Dan” said would change her perception. You also saw her fear of abandonment and self injury, two other BPD traits.
That’s what its like to deal with borderlines. You’re on two different levels of perception and reasoning or arguing with them is useless.
Hi Carla,
Have you looked into the possiblity your mother may suffer a personality disorder? It might be the woman has no capacity to love and nurture, as was the situation with my father.
My father was emotionally and physically abusive. I am also convinced he was a borderline PD. I know my daughter has absolutely no capacity to love and nurture a child. I saw signs of this as early as childhood.
It may offer you some solace to know this may have been a situation beyond your mother’s control.
She was no more capable of loving her children than you are capable of not loving your children.
Mary, no, I was referring to BPD. Sorry, don’t have time look up current research for you right now but here’s two articles I found quickly but I must admit I only scanned them hurriedly.
Scroll down to “natural course and progression.”
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/172/12/1579
Here’s another with a link on the right to read the full text.
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/160/2/274
Mary, I forgot to say that the rates of remission/recovery in those articles struck me as rather high. But I do concur that improvement is likely over time, even with the noncompliant.
Hi Fed Up,
I greatly appreciate the articles, thank you. I appreciate your concern.
They’re very informative and encouraging.
I’ve read other articles to the contrary and there are so many factors. Your article pointed out suicide as one, for which BPDs are at high risk. Another is alcohol and drug abuse, which is also very common with BPDs. Its a form of self medication and coping.
There’s also the factor of the severity of the disorder.
BPDs can also have periods of normalcy which can be very deceiving.
I’m afraid from what I’ve seen in my own family, its not encouraging. My father died of alcohol abuse, going to his grave no different than what he had always been. My sister is a Narcissistic PD, closely related to BPD and sociopathy, and in her 60’s still remains meaner than a snake. I love her but I know what to expect from her and to be skeptical of much of what she says.
Its like the sociopath. Age and time might force him/her to curb their activities or effect their ability to manipulate people, but they will nonetheless remain sociopaths.
In fact FedUp, its only been fairly recently that BPD has been regarded and treated as a psychiatric disorder. Until recently, it was regarded as a “junk diagnosis”. It is still frequently misdiagnosed and patients sadly don’t always get the proper treatment. Even finding a therapist qualified to diagnose and treat can be a major challenge.
Like I said, there are just so many factors.
Hi FedUP,
Unfortunately the remission/recovery phases are the normal course of the disorder. This is very deceiving as BPDs may experience periods of normalcy in the course of their disorder, with or without treatment. It can offer false hope, which can quickly be shattered as the BPD slides back into their abnormal behavior.
Its like the MS or cancer patient who may have periods of “remission” as well but still has the underlying disease waiting to strike again. This can make it difficult to determine what treatment is or is not working or can give the false impression the patient is recovering.
I saw this with my father and daughter. It can well appear as recovery/remission. I also witnessed my daughter slide from “normalcy” back into a BPD episode within a matter of minutes.
Mary, are you referring to Bipolar disorder or Borderline Personality Disorder? Both can go by BPD and what you describe in your daughter sounds in terms of ‘normalcy to BPD episode’ sounds like classic rapid cycling in Bipolar.
Hi Mary. I was just trying to instill a little hope, but it sounds like yours has been dashed. Sorry to hear that :(
Good luck on your finals, Erin.
Hey Mary,
That does describe my mother actually. Don’t remember her ever touching me, holding me, rocking me….hunh. I am too busy raising her grandchildren to give it much thought but what you said makes sense to me.
Vannah,
Tough question. My abortion experience brought me from prochoice to prolife once I saw for myself exactly what I had done. It was almost 19 years ago and still I read everything I can get my hands on and continue to long for that baby. Spiritually speaking, it was the brokenness after abortion that brought me to Christ. My abortion belongs to Him and it is only by His grace and forgiveness that I can tell others my story.
Erin 11:14PM
I was referring to Borderline. Actually borderline and bipolar have many similarities and I suspected bipolar to begin with. Borderlines are often misdiagnosed as bipolar. Borderlines can also have periods of normalcy, some of which can last for weeks or months.
She was medicated for bipolar and it was unsuccessful, in fact she got worse.
Believe me, I wish she was bipolar!
FedUp 12:00 am
I greatly appreciate your efforts and what your articles say may indeed have some encouraging basis in fact. We can hope so. There are so many conflicting opinions but who can say for absolute certain, right?
I’ve just read an article that 10-20% of diagnosed autistic children are fully recovering with therapy! Wasn’t this thought to be impossible at one time?
The fact BPD is finally being recognized and taken seriously as a mental illness is in itself a big step.
Who knows where it will go from there?
Thanks again FedUp.
Carla 12:17am
Why don’t you google “borderline personality disorder”? There’s a wealth of info and it may help you find some answers. Also, Narcissistic and Sociopath PDs. These disorders are closely related and symptoms interchangable.
Anyone familiar with the movie “Fatal Attraction”? Glenn Close did a fabulous job in that movie!! Her character was Alex Forrest, and she had an affair with a married man, and after he ended things, she took obsession to a whole new level. That’s BPD, and Glenn studied up on the part with many mental health professionals. I think everyone ought to see that movie.
Carla,
I would also recommend FedUp’s articles (10:12PM). They’re very informative.
Hi Heather,
Stalkers usually are borderlines. They can also be Narcissists obsessed with the fact they have been “abandoned”. I’m convinced most domestic violence involves borderline and narcissistic personality disorders and this “anger management” training etc. is a waste of time.
I use “alex” as an example because she so well displays the different level of perception than “Dan” and the rest of us. You’ll remember her self injury as well, another borderline trait. Also, she was an intelligent woman who otherwise appeared normal, holding down a job, etc.
Other than the Alfred Hitchcock ending, the movie itself wasn’t that far removed from reality.
Mary, good morning, and happy mothers day! Truth is, a close friend of mine had been diagnosed with BPD years ago, and her behavior is/was very similar to “Alex Forrest”. She always had severe issues with abandonment whenever a relationship ended. It would get to the point of stalking and obsessive phone calling. She was very “normal” in all other aspects of her life. The GOOD news is that a combination of therapy and medication have helped to improve her condition greatly.
My friend always seemed to believe that her BPD began in childhood. An overbearing mother, and a father who was never there. These were her words, not mine. She is intelligent to the point of almost being considered gifted. Her suffering was unreal.
Mary, I didn’t see that you had already mentioned Fatal Attraction before I did. I guess we were on the same page there.
Heather,
Good morning and happy mother’s day to you.
What wonderful news about your friend. She had to realize she had a problem, be truly committed to therapy and have a therapist who specialized in BPD treatment. In our state I could only find about 3 and they are miles from where I live.
I’m convinced BPD is genetic. I have learned to be highly skeptical of what these people say about their childhoods. My daughter will tell anyone who listens how horribly abused she was, which is claptrap. My father as well.
You have to remember these people perceive realty differently and always see themselves as the victims. They are also manipulative. My NPD sister can come up with some fascinating tales of childhood woe as well.
The fact your friend is so intelligent is no surprise, PDs usually are.
I have a lifelong friend with BPD. Very tragic. First of all no therapists properly diagnosed or treated her. She was turned into a walking pharmaceutical. She is still slicing her arm with razors. HOwever this is her world and her life, drugs and therapists, and will be until she dies. Changing her life in anyway terrifies her. Its like the convict who fears leaving the security of the prison life and being set “free”.
Mary, I must agree about the “recovery” from BPD. I see it in my girlfriend. Her outbursts are more controlled with medication, but she always has that fear of abandonment. It seeps through in our conversations at times.
Yes Mary, I have seen my friend relapse a few times. She’s had a few hospitalizations. The relapses were just that severe. I can relate to the childhood tales of woe. There have been a few times where she went without her meds and exclaimed, “I can do it.”….only to find out otherwise. It’s a vicious cycle.
Mary, Excellent posts!
Mary & Heather, turns out May is BPD awareness month. Here’s another site where you can get decent info.
http://www.borderlinepersonalitydisorder.com/
Mary, are you familiar with Marsha Linehan’s work and DBT?
Happy Mother’s Day, Ladies!
Hi Heather,
Its this fear of abandonment that can make BPDs and NPDs so dangerous. They talk of the “honeymoon phase” in domestic violence, when the woman is showered with love and remorse by her abuser. Unfortunately the victims, they can also be men, don’t realize this is not love and remorse but a very real fear of abandonment.
The danger, stalking and violence can occur when the love and remorse routine fails.
When my NPD sister’s husband left her, she literally went over the edge. I mean animal death throes. It even frightened my mother.
Your friend’s remissions may well be just the normal course of her disorder or the result of effective treatment. That’s what makes it so difficult to determine. Its obvious her underlying faulty wiring is still there.
It is very tragic. It must be a terrible way to live.
Hi FedUp 9:03am
Thank you for the excellent link. How true that we are decades behind in research and help for BPD victims and their families.
Small wonder victims still goes misdiagnosed and improperly treated and domestic abusers are told to take “anger management” classes.
I personally know of parents struggling with what looks to me like BPD who are still flailing about, having no clue what is wrong with their teens, getting wrong diagnoses, no answers and no help. I always suggest they research BPD and have gotten some positive feedback from parents who are grateful that they may finally have an answer.
Yes I have heard of Marsha Linehan’s work. Like any therapy it has its detractors and naysayers.
However, anything is worth a try!
Fed Up, thanks for the link! Helpful.
Actually, this website should be called “Fetal Attraction”.
Mr B, I’d like you to define fetus for me. It’s Latin for “little one”. Would you care to clarify “little one” OF WHAT????? A little gold fish? A little car? A little piece of cheese? Little one what?? You PCers are so irritating with this “fetus” term as if it doesn’t imply that a fetus is a human!!!
Etymology and spelling variations
The word fetus is from the Latin fetus, meaning offspring, bringing forth, hatching of young.[4] It has Indo-European roots related to sucking or suckling.[5]
Fœtus is an English spelling that has been in use since at least 1594, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, which describes “fœtus” as “incorrectly written”; it arose as a hypercorrection based on an incorrect etymology, in other words insufficient knowledge of Latin. The variant fœtus may have originated with an error by Saint Isidore of Seville, in AD 620.[6] The preferred spelling in most English-speaking countries (except in professional literature) is foetus or fœtus, although the original spelling based on the correct Latin etymology fetus persists in the United States. However, fetus is now also the standard spelling throughout the English-speaking world in medical journals and other technical usage.[7]
The only correct English plural is “fetuses”. The pseudo-Latin plural “feti” is sometimes seen in English, but this is based on insufficient knowledge of Latin. (In Latin, f?tus is fourth declension, and its plural is f?t?s.)
Robert, do you get it yet??
there is also something called deprivation neurosis in which a person does not receive love from one or both parents
as a result they do not go through the proper sequence of emotional development usually stopping at a certain stage, often when some kind of trauma has occurred.
Conrad Baars wrote extensively about this although his theory was never truly accepted.
I’ve read his book and it seems to make sense to me. Has anyone heard about this?
Hi Angel,
No I haven’t heard of that book but it sounds like the psychobabble of the era I was raised in.
At that time mental illness and autism were caused by poor mothering. Criminals were basically real nice people, just misunderstood.
Everyone who did wrong did so because they were toilet trained too early.
I’m convinced everyone is born wired a certain way. I knew a maternity nurse who could look at the behavior of newborns and predict future behavior, including if they were headed for trouble. She predicted the twin children of a co-worker of mine would be nothing but trouble, and they were.
I’ve seen too many bad kids come from great homes and too many great kids come from bad homes to think otherwise.
Hi angel. I’ve read three of his books, but don’t recall ever hearing him cited at conferences or within professional circles. Have you heard his daughter on EWTN?
I want to say that some children in Romania suffered from this, angel. I remember seeing a piece about it, and these kids were locked in cages. I just couldn’t believe my eyes. It broke my heart!