Newspaper features homicidal maniac abortion-funding “crusader”
Propping support for abortion invariably involves attempts to laud its sinister leaders and normalize their demented behavior.
And so we saw in the WI State Journal Sunday one of the more arduous tasks I think an MSM journalist has ever been asked to undertake – to pleasantly profile 83-yr-old Anne Gaylor, who has funded almost 19,000 abortions over 34 years.
Props to Doug Erickson for his magnificently ghoulish article. The entire piece is definitely worth the read. Following are “choice” quotes…
Gaylor has written every check for every abortion. This was No. 18,986...
Gaylor… takes all of the calls – some 800 a year – at her dining room table on her home phone, the same one her 4 children and 2 granddaughters reach her on….
… a petite woman with grayish-white hair and a soft voice….
Bob West, 82, of Madison… co-founde[d]… the [Women’s Medical] Fund with his wife, Margaret West, now deceased, and Gaylor. The 3 had become friends through the Madison chapter of the group Zero Population Growth.
“For me, it was all about the child,” he said. “In the kind of world I want to live in, all children would be wanted.”…
She sends out fundraising letters at least once a year, often tying the appeal to a significant event, such as Mother’s Day….
“Of the 632 women the fund has helped so far this year, 147 were teenagers,” Gaylor wrote to donors last Thanksgiving. “Of these, 9 were only 13 years old, and one, not yet a teen, was just 12!”…
“She’s been on the front lines of 2 of the most contentious issues in our society, what I call the two A’s — abortion and atheism,” said Nora Cusack… board treasurer of WMF….
Gaylor may look like Betty White, but her words still carry [a] socko punch…
On large families: “How presumptuous of someone to think the world is interested in a half-dozen or eight or 10 of their kids.”
On anti-abortion activists: “They’re religiously motivated, not intellectually motivated.”
On abortion: “A blessing.”…
The board of directors of WMF has not discussed a succession plan… Gaylor does not mention slowing down. “My regret is that we don’t have $1 million a year to give away so that we could help more women,” she said.
Here’s hoping WMF folds when Gaylor retires or dies.
Speaking of the latter, here’s knowing every baby Gaylor financed to murder will be waiting to meet her on the other side. Ironically, Gaylor’s only prayer is repentance.
[HT: Readers Barbara and Kim; HT for title: The Badger Catholic]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Here’s hoping all of the women she has “helped” rise up and tell how their abortions have “helped” them. I pray for their courage to tell the truth of their experience.
Did they happen to go after the pedophiles that raped those little girls? My guess is no. Write the check, kill the baby.
On abortion: “A blessing.”…
not for the baby that is being chopped to pieces without anesthetic…
““My regret is that we don’t have $1 million a year to give away so that we could help more women,” she said.”
————————————————————————
Translation: ““My regret is that we don’t have $1 million a year to kill the unwanted babies”
“For me, it was all about the child,” — ummm, No it’s not….it’s all about you and your twisted and perverse logic.
How creepy. And inexplicable to me. One imagines her writing the check to have her own grandchild killed if “needed.” Why not?
S I C K.
Totally blind.
Totally deceived.
She has no clue she’s been used by satan to kill 18,986 innocent precious children.
She will suffer terribly, mourn, wail and regret her ignorance of mind and the callousness of her heart toward the children she helped slaughter, except she repents.
Eternity is a very, very, very long time.
Yuck. Evil comes in pretty packages, doesn’t it? This one happens to look like a very nice elderly woman. Someone I might meet at church, perhaps (although if she does consider herself a Christian, I’d suggest that she might want to discover what Jesus had to say about “whitewashed tombs” – a rather apt label in this case, I’d say… looks nice on the outside, on the inside, full of dead men’s bones and all sorts of unclean things).
There’s a reason Satan is called a “deceiver”. It’s one of his specialties, is it not? Creepy. Sickening. Blech.
Hope she repents before it’s too late. :-(
Frightening. Just really sad. I agree…I hope she repents and has a change of heart, mind, body and spirit!
If you haven’t read the entire article plus comments please do. Wow.
There are some awesome prolife commenters holding their own with the “she’s a hero” and “where can I send her a check?” crowd.
“In the kind of world I want to live in, all children would be wanted.”…
How’s that working for ya? One of the commenters on the article said, The solution to unwanted children is to WANT them not to KILL them.
I have been asking this question for almost 3 years on this blog and have never gotten an answer. I am a patient woman.
How does abortion “help” women?
Donors such as these & those who support abortion funds are misguided. They provide the money for a 15 minute procedure to abort the girl’s pregnancy, then smugly pat themselves on the back for a job well done & helping the girl, when in fact they (the donors and clinic) don’t counsel or make appropriate referrals to address the underlying situation which led to the pregnancy and abortion in the first place.
Carla, oh but abortion helps Cecile buy those smart suits and gold jewelry!
In other words, they aren’t doing anything to address her situation or help her in the long run, they’re providing a quick fix & putting her right back into the situation she started in.
Sad, sad, sad and yuck is right. What a legacy to leave behind….
I’m familiar with Anne Gaylor and her daughter Annie Laurie. I’ve also listened to her incessent blathering, hatred, intolerance, and stupidity. She’s the one I wrote about when I told the account of the woman who babbled about an “illegal abortion death”. If you want me to repeat THAT story I will. Apparently making a public fool of herself did little to stifle Anne, as she continued to make a public fool of herself.
I’m surprised the old girl is still kicking as I thought she had long since been dispatched to the next dimension.
ninek,
Smart suits, jewelry and Cecile? Oh my.
Hi Mary,
I am sorry to share a state with them. Bah.
On large families: “How presumptuous of someone to think the world is interested in a half-dozen or eight or 10 of their kids.”
How arrogant to believe that people with more than 2.3 children give a ‘b o’ how or what these humanist elistist feel about the size of our families.
If ms Gaylor is serious in her belief that the planet is overpopulated, then she can practice on herself the inhumane barbarity she sponsors against helpless and voiceless prenatal children and jump in wood chipper and recycle her bony ‘b o’.
ms Gaylor is the stereotypical poster child for duplicitous and hypocritical liberal humanists. If, as she claims to believe, the planet is already overpopulated then how does she justify adding four of her own spawn to the alredy unsustainable total?
I already know the answer.
Her four children and one grandchild are more equal that the inferior trailer house trash, the ‘human weeds’ that depend on her largesse to fund the murder of their own children.
Hi Ken,
That strikes me as a rather bigoted statement “inferior trailer house trash”. Why is it assumed that trashy people reside in trailer parks?
This piece is obviously written by a pro-abortion person, and probably an atheist as well. The goal is to normalize abortion, or more than normalize it, sanctify it. They obviously want to push public opinion in a certain direction. This is not objective reporting, it’s biased reporting. Making a hero out of the pro-abortion side. Consider the source and move on.
What an absolutely ghoulish woman. As for someone “presumptuously” thinking the world is interested in in a half-dozen or eight or 10 of their kids, I wonder what the cut-off number is for Anne Gaylor. Some people believe no one should ever have over two children, so does that mean it was “presumptuous” of her to have four children?
If abortion is such a blessing, why didn’t she do in her own kids?
Anne harped to the Packer leadership many years ago about the Bishop’s Charities game, a Packer tradition, as favoring a certain religion (Catholics) and the Packer leadership should not have a game that favored a particular religion and its charities.
As usual the old haridan didn’t have her facts straight. The Packer leadership assured her that the money collected went to various charities, religious and non-religious and favored no religion.
You’d think this woman could find something important to concern herself with.
Ugh. What a horrible woman. I mean, just…..bleah. I see she, like most pro-aborts, are not trying to help girls NOT be raped. They just want to make sure all of them have abortions. Ick. Her comment about being “religiously” motivated instead of “intellectually” motivated is particularly irritating, and fallacious. There are no intellectual arguments in favor of abortion. It’s just slogans, and lies.
Hi Marauder,
What is troubling is this harpie thinks the world cares what SHE thinks. Trouble is she has no sense of embarassment. She just can’t stop making a fool of herself.
The story I referred to was years ago. Anne was howling about some woman in another state dying of an illegal abortion in her apt. The source was a man claiming to be a brother to the dead woman.
Somehow a district attorney, I assume of the city or county where the alleged victim supposedly died, was questioned on it, probably by a reporter. The DA said he and his staff had no knowledge of any such situation but checked with the coroner. Justifiably angry that his office had no knowledge of this the coroner inquired of local authorities concerning this woman.
No police or rescue squads responded to the call, no hospitals had any records of her and no local morticians had handled her remains.
Perplexed, the coroner reported his findings to the DA and the “brother” was investigated. Turns out the whole thing was a hoax. The man had no such sister but did have a long history of mental illness.
An obviously annoyed DA advised Ms.Gaylor to please, in the future, get her facts straight before making outlandish public claims and sending people on wild goose chases. Anne sniffed that when someone you don’t know tells you a loved one died, you don’t question it. Uh Anne, the fact you don’t know this person is precisely the reason you question it. A few phone calls would have saved you some embarassment and other people a lot of time and trouble.
The solution to unwanted children is to WANT them not to KILL them.
Yes! Exactly.
Yor Bro Ken I thought the same thing. Where does she get off lecturing those who have 10 kids when she herself had four? Why does she think the world wants four of HER children? ZERO population growth means us little guys can’t procreate but she, the elitist can have as many as she likes, eh?
So how lovely of her to write that check to help kill the babies of young women. And when those women go on to discover they CAN’T have any more babies will she write a check for their fertility treatments? When they get cancer of the breasts, ovaries or cervix, will she write the check for their medical treatments? When they need therapy to deal with the nightmares and depression caused by abortion will she write the check for that too? Or she just a “one time” kind of gal? She’ll “help’ you with an abortion and nothing else!
I also wonder how many abortions Ms. Gaylor had herself. I read in “Forbidden Grief” by Dr. Theresa Burke that some women who have abortions and feel anger and grief seek out work at abortion clinics because they feel if they couldn’t have their babies, they want to make sure other women don’t get to either. It makes them feel better every time they see another woman choose as abortion as they did.
What a sad old lady. When you are approaching the end of your life and you look back over the work you have done and think about what your legacy will be…how can you have any satisfaction knowing 19,000 people are not on this planet anymore because you helped kill them? Sick…
How very presumptuous to have 4 children!!
I mean, as long as she wants to push arbitrary numbers on people, I think 4 is out of control. Most people don’t have that many.
(joke- I’m expecting my fourth)
Mary August 24th, 2010 at 5:11 pm
Hi Ken,
“That strikes me as a rather bigoted statement “inferior trailer house trash”. Why is it assumed that trashy people reside in trailer parks?”
==============================================================
Mary,
While I never lived in a ‘trailer park’, I did live in a trailer house/mobile home for around 6 years.
perdoname.
I was using hyperbole to demonstrate ms Galyor’s chauvinistic elitism.
I apoligize to manufactured home dwellers every where.
Some of my best moments were spent in that 10 x 44 cracker box on wheels.
Hi Ken,
Thank you for the clarification. I know all too well that what we mean to say may not come across as we intend on the internet. When I was trying to make a point about racism, someone was aghast that I actually “believed” that. I was in fact making fun of racist, patronizing mentalities.
We do hear the term “trailer trash” tossed around a lot and for some reason it is considered acceptable.
“They’re religiously motivated, not intellectually motivated.”
Let me introduce you to my husband.
Sydney M
August 24th, 2010 at 7:29 pm
“ZERO population growth means us little guys can’t procreate but she, the elitist can have as many as she likes, eh?”
—————————————
Yes. That’s what eugenics is. Why Planned Parenthood was founded. It’s Margaret Sangers dream:
“More children from the fit, less from the unfit — that is the chief aim of birth control.” Birth Control Review, May 1919, p. 12
If she wanted to “help” women she should writes checks to buy shower gifts to help poor women who want to keep their babies.
The woman is a saint! Probably does more good for society than Mother Teresa ever did. I hope a succession plan is put in place.
Agreed, Truthseeker. All of those young girls “wanted” abortions right??
Since they are in my state I would love to hear from the 19,000 that have been “helped.”
Cranium,
Thanks for the laugh this morning!!
“How does abortion “help” women?”
David M. Fergusson, Joseph M. Boden, and L. John Horwood. Abortion Among Young Women And Subsequent Life Outcomes. Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, 2007, 39(1):6–12.
Not much empirical evidence. Here is one study – not well conducted – does not reveal how they “controlled” for socioeconomic differences – but their conclusion is that in general the young women who had abortions ended up later in adulthood making a few thousand dolars per year more money, and 15 percent more had achieved college degrees.
What a deal: kill a human, have a few thousand greater annual income, and have a better shot at completing your degree. But who decides who gets to get killed and who gets to go to college? The powerful decide, over the powerless and voiceless. Same ol’ story.
Way to say it Truthseeker! If this woman wanted to help young women in the long run, then why not fund the establishment of a low-cost daycare and/or a mentoring program for at-risk and pregnant/parenting teens so they’re able to continue their education and stay off the streets. Or what about establishing a college scholarship for low-income pregnant and parenting women so the cost of college is not out of reach. There are so many creative ways in which she could of better used her money to help and bettter young women in the long run.
“The woman is a saint! Probably does more good for society than Mother Teresa ever did”…..in Bizarro world, you mean….
Only an absolutely demented and diabolical mind could justify the misuse of God’s money for such a horrific cause.
Something terrible must have happened to this women to harbor such hatred for the unborn.
Yes, she soon will meet her Maker and she should be terrified of that.
Ed
August 24th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
…….Eternity is a very, very, very long time.
Ed,
Correction, in eternity there is no time. It is characterized by unchangeability, a forever state, no possibility of reversal or recovery…..very sad.
cranium
August 25th, 2010 at 1:29 am
The woman is a saint! Probably does more good for society than Mother Teresa ever did. I hope a succession plan is put in place.
I hope you’re NOT serious.
You are all only seeing it from one point of view – yours!
Many of us don’t hold to your doctrine of fear. ‘Meet her Maker’ does not apply.
And there are positive benefits to abortion.
Wonderful lady.
Mary wrote:
Hi Ken,
Thank you for the clarification.
:) You’re really tempting me to tease you about the danger of assuming insinuation, but I’ll be good.
Cranium,
*Are* you serious? Help us out, here, for our own clarity and peace of mind. If you’re using irony to illustrate the horror of this situation, then well and good. If you’re serious, then your statements are outrageously wrong enough to be grotesque; they’d be almost textbook “troll-speak”.
cranium
August 26th, 2010 at 2:25 am
You are all only seeing it from one point of view – yours!
Many of us don’t hold to your doctrine of fear. ‘Meet her Maker’ does not apply.
And there are positive benefits to abortion.
Wonderful lady.
——————————————————–
WHAT “positive benefits to abortion”?
Here’s what abortion has reaped for us and our society:
a. innocent human beings being killed while still in their mothers’ wombs (a place that’s supposed be a place of growth, safety, and nurishment).
b. human beings who have disabilities are being killed still inside their mother’s wombs simply because they are disabled (therefore, “unwanted”).
c. depression, suicide, and remorse (yes, there ARE women suffering these things as a result of abortion–I know one of them and Carla has told her story more than once to just name two of the many out there)
d. women being forced into having abortions (yes, that does happen even now).
e. men not having to take responsibility for their actions
f. fatherhood and motherhood being mocked and treated like some sort of form of leperosy. (people are acting like having a child is the worst thing that could happen to them).
g. ignorance of biology. It used to be that sperm + egg = baby But for the abortion industry sperm + egg = maybe be baby. Definitions that have been held to be true based on evidence (such as sperm + egg = baby) are being redefined to suit the abortion industry.
h. instead of standing in awe of what the female body can do, women are becoming suspecious and fearful as well as angry at what their bodies can do. (I understand not enjoying PMS and periods and being nervous about giving birth, but seriously, when you stop and think about it, an egg and sperm coming together to make another unique human life is pretty darn incredible, but women are losing slight of that awe).
The list goes on and on.
There’s also health problems with abortion:
a. some times abortion renders women sterile–so even if later in life they want to have kids, they can’t.
b. infections from abortion still happen.
and that list goes on and on.
There are NO TRUE “benefits” from abortion!
Cranium- One could also say that there are “positive benefits” to killing a five-year-old, but it doesn’t justify murder.
Cranium:
I’ve been blogging on this site for years.
Your typical responses confirm that Liberalism is a mental disorder characterized by a godless mindset.
I do think Satan is the culprit here, but not with total culpability; for one has to actually choose to believe his lies.
I rarely make religious comments but today I’d like to add: remember the example we are given in Genesis. Adam and Eve were lured by Satan, and when God asked what happened about the apple, all three of them pointed the blame at each other. God didn’t only punish Satan and say oh you bad boy, look what you did. He also threw Adam and Eve out of paradise. In other words, Satan may be working hard but he will not pay the price for what this wicked pro-abortionist is doing: she will have to answer for herself. Ultimately it is God’s will that we all make it to salvation but some people are obviously not interested in spiritual efficiency.
You are all only seeing it from one point of view – yours!
Really? Because that’s the pot calling the kettle black!
Many of us don’t hold to your doctrine of fear. ‘Meet her Maker’ does not apply.
Hmm, I don’t recall making a religious argument and I’m sure there are others here who did not as well, you’re picking and choosing who you respond to and incorrectly lumping us all together.
And there are positive benefits to abortion.
Such as…
(Care to cite any evidence?)
Also, how does that address the negative experiences some women have or the very real risk of complications during/after an abortion? And what of shoddy abortion providers such as Pendergraft and Hodari?
Wonderful lady.
Opinion, not fact.
cranium August 26th, 2010 at 2:25 am
“You are all only seeing it from one point of view – yours!
And there are positive benefits to abortion.
Wonderful lady.”
———————————————————————————————
Cranium (where the sun don’t shine, keep listening for the pop.),
There were Senators who stood on floor of the United States Senate and argued that slavery was a ‘positive good’. They asserted slavery was good for the slaves and it was good for the slave owners.
Some of these icons of ignorance used passages from the bible in lame attempts to justify their bigotry.
They were so set in their bigotry that they passed federal laws making it a felony punishable by a $10,000.00 fine and stiff prison sentence for who assisted escaped slaves. Even for people who lived in the non-slave states.
On the floor of the Senate one pro-slavery Senator beat an abolitionist Senator with his cane. The abolitionists injuries were so severe it was months before he could return to work and he never fully recovered from his injuries.
Bigots, by definition are cruel and intolerant people. They are as quick to anger as bear robbed of her cubs when they are confronted with their folly.
People who refuse to acknowledge the humanity of the pre-natal child are bigots.
Please list for us the positive benefits of pre-natal homicide that acrue to the victim.
When your momma was gestating you, what species of embryo/fetus was present in her uterus?
Caution: Seriously considering this question may be hazardous to your bliss and it may faciliate the sudden and violent release of your cranium from where it is persistently lodged. This extraction/expulsion will be anounced by similtaneous ‘pop’.
Dear me! So much love. Let me try to respond to everyone.
a. emotive opinion. Abortion always has, and always will, take place. Women have the right to choose.
b. saving untold suffering for both the child and the family.
c. overstated, lacking in comparative evidence. And what about the outcome for those who failed to have the abortion they wanted?
d. got any data? It’s wrong anyway, as are so many things. It’s not abortion per se at fault, it’s the situation. They’d probably still be forced even if abortion were illegal, making it even more traumatic.
e. again, nothing to do with the legality of abortion. Some men are just that bad.
f. where do you get that from? Any data or evidence? Sounds very subjective.
g. it’s called choice. Something possessed by higher sentient life forms.
h. opinionated diatribe.
the subset:
a. and what can full term delivery do? What would the rate of damage be if abortion were illegal?
b. infections from a cut finger still happen. The risks of full term delivery are significantly higher.
There are many true benefits from abortion – they just don’t get captured, recorded, analyzed and reported empirically.
Phil, a full and objective psychological analysis would clearly demonstrate that it is the god-smitten who have a mental issue/deficiency/illness.
Rachael, of course it’s opinion – mine and yours. Society has accepted and legalized abortion so guess what.
There are faulty and inadequate medicos in every field of medicine.
The death rate from full term delivery is 9-11 times higher than that of abortion.
Cranium:
A full and objective kick in the ass would reveal a spoiled brat.
Failure….or fear to use your real name is evidence of your lack of backbone or should I say spine?
I assume Cranium is your moniker because somehow you think you’re well, lets’ see, SMART? Please, don’t tell me that’s your real name. Ah, but that would explain a great deal of your current mental state and anathemic attitude toward Our Lord.
God-smitten? Oooooh that’s a new one and yes thanks for the compliment. I’m gonna make a bumper sticker using that and paste it on my pickup truck next to the Sarah Palin and Jan Brewer stickers.
Better to be in love with God then to find oneself rejected by their only hope.
Of all types of suicides, the spiritual type has got to be the absolute dumbest.
Oo, so now we get nasty. Truth and reality not cutting it for you anymore?
yor bro ken, the slavery analogy is tenuous at best. What about the miscegenation laws? In both instances I see bad law being changed, just like the legalization of abortion was a change from bad law to good law.
If you want to raise bigotry on the basis of intolerance, I think you lose, big time. You can’t just put your own emotive spin on it. What pre-natal homicide? If you mean abortion, what about the huge emotional and financial costs of a severely debilitated child, especially one who dies very young? What about the tearing apart of families and peoples lives through being unable to cope either emotionally, physically or mentally with an unplanned child. The effects of these aren’t captured and measured because most people aren’t interested once a ‘safe delivery’ has been realized. I do, and I contribute to the assistance of those sufferers. If my ‘momma’ hadn’t wanted me, I would know absolutely nothing about it so it would matter not one iota.
Gees Phil, that’s a scientific approach! What does my true name matter? Would it make a difference if I was George, or Peter, maybe Lucy or Emily? Read what you want into my moniker, it’s your little mental journey.
YOUR Lord, not mine. You seem to forget that. Go on, add the sticker. It’ll just reinforce that you are as mentally deficient as the mindless morons you support.
Better to be rational and guided by facts and truth than just give up and hand responsibility for yourself to some made up deity. Which deity? Whose deity. We are all atheist, I just believe in one less god than you do. Spiritual suicide? Compared to what, suicide of the ability to think?
Sydney
Now behave yourself we’re just not in the same company as this dear sainted woman whose views are so charitable towards women she considers it her civic duty to see to it that there babies die. ;(
A quote by a true Crusader and Saint who was born 100 years ago today:
“America needs no words from me to see how your decision in Roe v. Wade has deformed a great nation. The so-called right to abortion has pitted mothers against their children and women against men. It has sown violence and discord at the heart of the most intimate human relationships. It has aggravated the derogation of the father’s role in an increasingly fatherless society. It has portrayed the greatest of gifts — a child — as a competitor, an intrusion, and an inconvenience. It has nominally accorded mothers unfettered dominion over the independent lives of their physically dependent sons and daughters”
And, in granting this unconscionable power, it has exposed many women to unjust and selfish demands from their husbands or other sexual partners. Human rights are not a privilege conferred by government. They are every human being’s entitlement by virtue of his humanity. The right to life does not depend, and must not be declared to be contingent, on the pleasure of anyone else, not even a parent or a sovereign.” (Mother Theresa — “Notable and Quotable,” Wall Street Journal, 2/25/94, p. A14)
If my ‘momma’ hadn’t wanted me, I would know absolutely nothing about it so it would matter not one iota.
If your momma didn’t want you today, she could kill you in your sleep, and you would know absolutely nothing about it, so I guess it would not matter, not one iota.
If you mean abortion, what about the huge emotional and financial costs of a severely debilitated child, especially one who dies very young?
What about it? What about the huge emotional and financial costs of a 20-30 year old woman who finds out she has cancer? Does her life have a limited price tag? Is she now expendable because she will cost too much?
Cranium:
Wrong again there.
Every knee shall bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Well said Myrtle, except it should have been ‘their’, not ‘there’ and they’re not babies.
Praxedes, Mother Teresa? I’m not taking her seriously for a start. Isn’t it ‘Teresa’, not ‘Theresa’? Her words are subjective, emotive, opinionated and non-evidential.
Non-valid comparison Bethany.
Bethany, are you comparing enforced pregnancy to cancer?
Ah Phil, every head is bowed and every mind cowered for those who believe any of that tripe.
Non-valid comparison Bethany.
You didn’t back this up with anything? How shocking! How is my comparison invalid, Cranium?
it should have been ‘their’, not ‘there’
Isn’t it ‘Teresa’, not ‘Theresa’?
I know we’re all very impressed by your superior intellect and command of the English language. Bravo sweetie! You are so smart!
Bethany, are you comparing enforced pregnancy to cancer?
If you were half as smart as you imagine yourself to be, you might have picked up on what my comparison was, as I think it was fairly obvious. If you don’t get it, though, you don’t get it.
BTW, what exactly is “enforced” pregnancy?
Bethany, there is no comparison between a fetus and an established, independently breathing human being. So its not a valid comparison.
Well if you think the quote is so important and valid, you should at least cite it accurately.
A 20-30 year old woman is an established, independently breathing human being. A fetus is not. The woman does not ‘choose’ to have cancer. Most would choose not to suffer that fate. The same as the emotional and financial cost if a woman is unable to ‘choose’ whether to proceed with a pregnancy or not.
Enforced pregnancy starts with the control of womens fertility by patriarchal and misogynistic organizations and cultures. It then proceeds to the continuation of a pregnancy that the woman does not want.
Er… it’s usually others which have to say this to me, but–as Fr. Z. says:
DNFTT.
(Do not feed the trolls!)
Cranium is a troll. Once the species is identified with moral certainty, all obligation to feed ceases. :)
Bethany, there is no comparison between a fetus and an established, independently breathing human being. So its not a valid comparison.
What you are failing to do is to recognize the difference between opinion and fact.
You still have not backed this claim up with any facts, and most likely, you cannot.
Paladin, you’re right. He is a troll. I’ll DNFTT now. :-)
“Praxedes, Mother Teresa? I’m not taking her seriously for a start.”
Dear Cranidum, I put the quote up in honor of Mother Teresa’s birthday which is today and to inspire the prolife Saints who visit Jill’s. Do you seriously believe I would think you could be capable of understanding one such as Mother Teresa?
I know it may be hard to believe, but it’s seriously not always about you.
I can’t believe I missed the fact that the Wall Street Journal misspelled MT’s name. But then again, I’ve never been good with spelling names.
Which prolife saints would they be Praxedes?
No, it’s not always about me. Nor you, nor the other commenters here. It’s about women not being subjugated by men, religion, culture or even other women. It’s about them and their right to choose.
Why does it take Bethany two goes to respond each time? A fetus does not breath on its own, that’s a fact.
Army wife, great line about “evil coming in pretty packages”. It’s so true – I think of how charming, good-looking, and intelligent Ted Bundy was. Think of all the women he slaughtered. Yes, evil does not have a face, socioeconomic status, or race.
Doe, Countess Elizabeth Báthory comes to my mind.
cranium August 26th, 2010 at 9:00 pm
“Bethany, there is no comparison between a fetus and an established, independently breathing human being. So its not a valid comparison.”
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Cranium,
Whoa pilgrim.
To what species of fetus are you referring?
If you are talking canine, bovine, feline fetuses etc., you may have a point.
But if you’re referring to the the fetus that was present in your mamma’s uterus when she was pregnat with you then there certainly is a ‘valid comparison’.
Have you heard the ‘pop’ yet?
cranium August 26th, 2010 at 9:25 pm
”A fetus does not breath on its own, that’s a fact.”
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Cranium,
Your are incorrect in your assertion.
Human fetuses do breath on their on. Before birth they inhale and exhale amniotic fluid to prepare their lungs for a new envrionment outside the uterus.
Physicians have injected air into the amniotic sac for diagnostic purposes and human fetuses have inhaled and exhaled that air. These human fetuses have cried and hiccuped en utero.
Your assertion has a ‘catch 22′ component as well.
Gestation for the human fetus is around 40 weeks. But by the 22-24th week of gestation the human fetus’ lungs are mature enough to sustain life outside the uterus.
If these human fetuses are birthed before the 40th week these former fetuses, are now refrerred to as premature infants, but they are no more or no less, human.
Did you hear the ‘pop’ yet?
And what are the physiological differences between mammalian fetuses yor bro ken? None of them are breathing on their own.
No, I’m not laughing that hard yet. Just the ‘zoop zoop’ of the bulging eyeballs of people confronted with reality along with the ‘crackle pop’ of the veins in their temples over their little dreamworlds being shattered.
First of all, it’s “breathe” not “breath.” “Breath” is a noun and “breathe” is a verb.
None of them are breathing on their own.
Neither is someone on a ventilator. Is breathing oxygen without assistance a qualification for being human?
Thanks Kel, I was wondering if it should be breathe, I wasn’t sure.
Attempting to raise semantic little debates doesn’t change the outcome.
Oh, lookie, now *I* get to take 2 posts to respond. I guess that’s somehow significant in the troll’s view…
Enforced pregnancy starts with the control of womens fertility by patriarchal and misogynistic organizations and cultures. It then proceeds to the continuation of a pregnancy that the woman does not want.
This statement is so utterly full of crap, I don’t know where to start. How ’bout this: NO ONE, not even the woman, can fully control her fertility. So sorry you are horribly limited by the fact that you have a uterus instead of realizing how empowering it is to be able to do something a man cannot do (how’s that for actual feminism?)!
There are ways to guarantee that no woman encounters a pregnancy she doesn’t want. If you really hate having a uterus so much, perhaps a hysterectomy or tubal ligation is an option for you. This isn’t about “patriarchy” or “misogynistic” cultures. No one “forces” anyone to become pregnant. We can’t just will ourselves nor anyone else to conceive.
Furthermore, if modern feminists are so opposed to teh “patriarchy” then why on earth are they so hell bent on becoming just like them?
It’s about women not being subjugated by men
Yep, and there it is. Here’s what I don’t think modern feminists “get”: You become just like the despised patriarchy, victimizing those weaker than yourselves, just because you CAN, when you choose abortion. You wouldn’t want those awful men to keep you down. Who needs ’em?! (Except to chew ’em up and spit ’em out and prove that all they’re useful for is your own selfish sexual pleasure and then you’ll REALLY show ’em when you get all “empowered” and kill their offspring so you can chew some more up and spit ’em out again!)
I would encourage you to step back and take a look at what you’re actually saying and why you’re saying it – and also *what* you’re choosing and why you feel it must be chosen. It’s all motivated by hatred and fear.
Attempting to raise semantic little debates doesn’t change the outcome.
Pardon me? And what semantic little debate did I raise? The fact that BREATHING isn’t a qualification for being human? Oh, THAT little detail… LOL
Cranium–
Have you ever been pregnant? I have. I know how emotional it is. I know how frightening it can be. Shoot, when I was in labor the doc was commenting on how much blood I lost. I was so afraid I was going to leave my child motherless.
But I got through it. And I absolutely love my child. I wouldn’t trade my kid in for anything.
One of the things you might know if you ever were pregnant is that feelings during pregnancy are incredibly unreliable because of the hormones going up and down. A pregnant woman one day might be extremely excited about having a child and the next decide she was nuts to have gotten pregnant (or risked it) in the first place. It’s the hormone levels–they go all over the place.
The fact of the matter is, women are getting more and more away from the awe/wonder of a life created and focusing on their fears.
Yes, it’s scary to be pregnant. Yes, it can be very scary to give birth. But I’ll tell you FROM EXPERIENCE it’s WORTH everything I went through 400,000 times infinity percent because I know that underneath all the fear was an inner strength (from God) that I wasn’t sure I had. I now know, I can do it. Even if it’s hard, I know I’m capable. I also know if a woman isn’t capable there are people in the world who would give the baby a loving home.
I know A LOT of people who are adopted and pretty much all of them have said they were grateful their parents did NOT abort them.
Emotional diatribe you say? No…EXPERIENCE from seeing what others have said, gone through and felt and from what I have said, thought and gone though and felt–and experienced myself.
You can dismiss me all you want. I know what I’ve studied, felt, experienced, heard and learned. I can’t help it if you refuse to see the truth, but I pray, cranium, that one day you get it…before the end of your life.
You have my pity.
On another note, sites to consider based on what I have talked about…
http://www.gargaro.com/regrets.html
http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/testimonies/iregretmyabortion.htm
http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/kah/kah_09chap7canabor1.html
http://www.abortionbreastcancer.com/start/
http://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james3.htm
http://www.omsoul.com/catalog/kahlenborn-md-chris-m042.html
Doctors say:
http://prolifeaction.org/providers/levatino.php
http://prolifeaction.org/providers/hill.php
Former Dr. Tiller Receptionist Says:
http://prolifeaction.org/providers/tivis.php
I tried to post a response to cranium with a bunch of links, but for some reason it didn’t post.
Here’s one of the links I had in the entry that didn’t post:
http://prolifeaction.org/providers/tivis.php
Ah, angry man. Your response is a complete diatribe of ill-informed and inaccurate bile.
Abstention ‘programs’, lack of correct sexual education, denial of contraception and access to abortion are all instances of womens fertility being taken out of their hands.
Hatred of the uterus? Where did you dredge that up from? Overly emotive statements like that don’t bring anything to the debate.
Yes, people DO force women to become pregnant. To deny such is either ignorant or dishonest.
You’ve really got some serious women issues don’t you? Abortion is not ‘victimizing’. Making women tantamount to property and limiting their opportunities is victimizing.
It is religion and bowing before any deity which is predicated on hatred and fear.
Mother in Texas, I published your comments! :) Sometimes when there are multiple links, the spam filter picks it up.
Ah, angry man. Your response is a complete diatribe of ill-informed and inaccurate bile.
LOL! Um, nope, mother of 3 here. :D
Abstention ‘programs’, lack of correct sexual education, denial of contraception and access to abortion are all instances of womens fertility being taken out of their hands.
There seems to be plenty of access to sex education (younger and younger, I might add), plenty of condoms to go around at MY Walmart, anyway… and plenty of access to abortion at this point. Hmm. Not sure what world you’re living in, but by my count, there are still 4000 unborn children killed daily here in the US alone.
Hatred of the uterus? Where did you dredge that up from? Overly emotive statements like that don’t bring anything to the debate.
Yep, that’s what I said. Modern day feminism says the only way you can be “equal” is to screw with your reproductive capabilities, and if you should become pregnant, abort the new human life at any cost. Because a college degree, as everyone knows, is far more important than some other inconvenient human being getting in our way. If we didn’t have uteri, it’d be so much more convenient to become just like “the patriarchy,” now wouldn’t it?
I’m really not sure what you’re talking about regarding bringing something to the debate, cranium. You haven’t done anything but parrot pro-abort mantras here and deny simple, biological fact. That isn’t debate. It isn’t even independent thought.
Yes, people DO force women to become pregnant. To deny such is either ignorant or dishonest.
Somebody might have forced them to HAVE SEX, cranium, but no one can FORCE someone to become pregnant. Think about it. And while we’re on the subject of forced sex, 2% of abortions take place for that reason.
You’ve really got some serious women issues don’t you? Abortion is not ‘victimizing’. Making women tantamount to property and limiting their opportunities is victimizing.
Excuse me, but what do you think happens to the children who are aborted? They are treated as property and their opportunities for growth – and LIFE – are taken away. Because mommy didn’t want to deal with it. You are the one with the skewed view of women that seems to think on one hand, they’re poor little waifs who would be broken by an unplanned pregnancy, and on the other hand they’re the smarter, more capable sex.
It is religion and bowing before any deity which is predicated on hatred and fear.
Again, we wouldn’t want to acknowledge anything the “patriarchy” might have established, therefore, we’ll make ourselves the deities and just be done with it. The goddess has spoken.
LOL! Um, nope, mother of 3 here.
ROFL, Kel! :)
Cranium
Thanks for the correction I know the difference and yet I make that error often. My error though is unintentional when you make the assumption that it’s not a baby growing in the human mothers’ womb you are also making an error. The question is is your error unintentional or intentional?
Apologies Kel, where I am located Kel is a male name. And your anti-feminism is so strident. Just for clarity, I am male, and a father. And I have watched my wife almost die as she delivered an almost full-term stillbirth. Did you know that full-term de3livery is 9-11 times more fatal for women than abortion is?
Access to accurate sex education is still very much a hit and miss affair. And access to condoms doesn’t necessarily mean people know how to use them correctly.
‘…but no one can FORCE someone to become pregnant…’ – you are kidding right? What does she do, close her eyes and ‘will’ conception not to take place whilst being raped, abused or subjected to cultural or religious behaviors? You do know that sex can lead to pregnancy don’t you?
‘…feminism says the only way you can be “equal” is to screw with your reproductive capabilities…’ – I think the word you are looking for is ‘control’, or perhaps ‘choose’ – not ‘screw’.
The old ‘you say there is no god so you make yourself god’ argument just doesn’t fly. It’s nothing more than a pathetic attempt at obfuscation and name calling. rational thought and behavior doesn’t incorporate a doctrine of fear.
You are welcome Myrtle. There is no error, unintentional or intentional.
Cranium, I am very sorry for your loss.
However (and I know this question might seem cruel, but based on your comments i think it is appropriate), is the reason you post in support of abortion because you wish that you could have killed your child sooner?
Not at all Bethany. While I feel pain for the fact that my daughter would have been 21 soon, she was planned and wanted.
despite the venom which comes from some anti-choice folk, pro-choice people are not ‘pro-aborts’ or ‘death dealers’. We simply believe that women should have the complete right to control their fertility. Abortion is the last resort.
The fact is that there are things in society which not everyone agrees with. You don’t agree with abortion. I don’t agree with guns, or state sponsorship of religion, or the lack of a livable minimum wage (I’m a small business owner). But we tolerate differences for the least worse state of society for the majority.
Not at all Bethany. While I feel pain for the fact that my daughter would have been 21 soon, she was planned and wanted.
Was it her wantedness that made her a human being? Does being wanted or not change one’s status from being human to non-human? When did your daughter become a person, Cranium? When did your wife first begin bonding with your daughter? When she saw the positive pregnancy test? When she saw the first ultrasound? When she found out she was losing her daughter?
despite the venom which comes from some anti-choice folk, pro-choice people are not ‘pro-aborts’ or ‘death dealers’. We simply believe that women should have the complete right to control their fertility.
You are talking about a completely different subject when you say “control their fertility”. Controlling your fertility is not the same as killing a child who has already been conceived.
If you are not a pro-abort, why have you not advocated here for life? You seem to think the best option for a baby whose life is going to cost their parents a lot of money is death. You seem to think the best option for a baby who is going to inconvenience their parents is death. You do not support pro-life efforts like CPC’s, I’m sure, so how are you not pro-abort?
Abortion is the last resort.
Explain what you mean when you say this.
And why should abortion be the last resort? Why shouldn’t it be the first way to deal with a problem pregnancy?
And your anti-feminism is so strident.
I’m not anti-feminism. I’m anti-MODERN feminism, which spouts the mantra of “choice” and seems to believe that the only way we can achieve is to kill our unborn children at will. I am so glad for the likes of Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton, who were two of our American feminist foremothers. And they spoke out against abortion. Are you familiar with Feminists for Life?
Just for clarity, I am male, and a father. And I have watched my wife almost die as she delivered an almost full-term stillbirth. Did you know that full-term de3livery is 9-11 times more fatal for women than abortion is?
And yet, women were designed for childbirth, not elective abortion. (Oh, wait, you don’t believe in design…) I’m very sorry for you loss, and I’m so glad your wife survived. However, the solution is not to kill more unborn children. The solution is to provide the most excellent medical care possible, especially in third world countries, where access to good prenatal and postnatal care isn’t always available. This is how we help women AND their children.
Access to accurate sex education is still very much a hit and miss affair. And access to condoms doesn’t necessarily mean people know how to use them correctly.
I never had the condom on banana instruction in school, and yet somehow I’m completely aware of how they work. Amazing, I know. It’s really not rocket science. And maybe if someone doesn’t have the intelligence to properly put on a condom, that person should reconsider being sexually active. Just a thought.
‘…but no one can FORCE someone to become pregnant…’ – you are kidding right? What does she do, close her eyes and ‘will’ conception not to take place whilst being raped, abused or subjected to cultural or religious behaviors? You do know that sex can lead to pregnancy don’t you?
Of course it can, but you are missing my point entirely. No, she can no more “will” conception NOT to take place than to will it TO take place. Do you get it now? How many infertile women do you know who would LOVE to be able to conceive? Can they force themselves to get pregnant? Every life is a miracle. Every life. There’s a very small window of time each month that a woman is even fertile, and the chance of conceiving during that window is about 25%. So it really is astounding that new life occurs.
However, so many today act as if sex IN NO WAY should ever lead to pregnancy (and yet you ask if *I* am aware it can lead to pregnancy??). The use of contraception, if it fails, leads to the idea that somehow that pregnancy was “an accident” when actually, what occurred was TOTALLY NATURAL.
‘…feminism says the only way you can be “equal” is to screw with your reproductive capabilities…’ – I think the word you are looking for is ‘control’, or perhaps ‘choose’ – not ‘screw’.
Again, no one can fully control his or her reproductive capabilities. No one. The Pill can fail. Condoms can break. Once conception has occurred, reproduction has ALREADY TAKEN PLACE. The only way to control THAT is to destroy the completely innocent party in the act – the unborn child. But keep dehumanizing, because that’s how people deal with it. Why can’t you see this? (But then, why didn’t the Germans see through the Final Solution? I guess we start to believe the rhetoric after a while…)
The old ‘you say there is no god so you make yourself god’ argument just doesn’t fly. It’s nothing more than a pathetic attempt at obfuscation and name calling. rational thought and behavior doesn’t incorporate a doctrine of fear.
Being a person of faith does not negate rational thought. In fact, most of the great scientists were men (and women) of faith. But it’s nice to know you’re a typical atheist who believes he’s intellectually superior to the rest of us. Thanks for clearing that up. For the record, I came to Christ not out of fear, but out of gratitude for His great love and sacrifice. That said, being a person of faith and pro-life do not have to go hand in hand.
Bethany, once she reached a stage of development where her life would have been viable outside the womb she became a person. And that has nothing to do with the actual cause of death. My wife never bonded with her, that would have occurred after birth. Until then the fetus is a potential human.
No, controlling fertility includes all options which are available.
You are over-simplifying things with your money and inconvenience statements. I do not support groups such as yours because you are anti-choice. Usage of the term ‘pro-abort’ is an exaggeration designed to malign the pro-choice people.
If abstinence fails, if contraception fails, if circumstances dictate that a birth would be untenable, if adoption is not suitable – then abortion is an option as a last resort. For some it is their first option and the easiest way – and that is fine too. It’s their choice.
Well, now I know you’re lying, Cranium, because I do not believe your wife did not ever express any feelings about her baby before birth. I do not believe for a second that she never wondered if her baby would be a girl or a boy, or let you know when the baby kicked for the first time. You are in denial.
If the baby didn’t become a person until viable, how was your daughter a person if she never came out alive?
No, controlling fertility includes all options which are available.
fer·til·i·ty
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You are over-simplifying things with your money and inconvenience statements
You are the one who brought up how much disabled children burden us with in cost. Not me.
. I do not support groups such as yours because you are anti-choice.
Anti what choice? Say it.
Cranium, if you are not pro-abortion, why do you think the woman in this topic is a “saint”?
And, based on your support of this woman, isn’t it a lie to say that you want abortion to be a last resort?
If abstinence fails,
Cranium, Abstinence is 100 percent effective. Every time.
if contraception fails, if circumstances dictate that a birth would be untenable, if adoption is not suitable – then abortion is an option as a last resort. For some it is their first option and the easiest way – and that is fine too. It’s their choice.
So you DON’T think it should be a last resort then, even though you just said you did? Strange how your mind changes like that.
Are you happy I didn’t answer you with 2 posts this time? :D
Anti-MODERN feminism, yes well. Followed by subjective opinion.
‘..women were designed for childbirth, not elective abortion.’ – then how is abortion possible? It’s not a difficult procedure and it’s safer than full-term delivery.
I’ll let you have your own thoughts on eugenics.
You said no one can FORCE someone to become pregnant. Those were your words. Just because some women cannot get pregnant does not change the premise.
We are an advanced species. We do not need to procreate if we do not wish to do so. If you insist that the ‘natural’ course of events should be accepted, why are you using a car instead of walking?
Blah blah, another little rant about post-conception inevitability. try getting out of the stone age. You have abrogated your ultimate personal responsibility to ‘faith’ – then you try to tell others how to live!?
Bethany, I am not lying. She was pregnant, and she was waiting to see what would come of it. She was looking forward to the ‘child’ which would emerge from the process. And if testing has shown it was not viable she would have terminated. I am not in denial. I accept reality and life. I don’t hedge my bets with nefarious beliefs.
Bethany, because she had reached the stage where she would have been viable outside the womb if she had been alive. She only died on the last day.
Anti-womens choice, anti-peoples choice, anti-lifestyle choice. People such as yourself belive that everyone should live by your choices. That’s not going to happen. An nobody is trying to stop your choices.
She is helping those less fortunate who find themselves in bad situations. No, I do want abortion to be the last resort. It is a spurious element of your argument to assert otherwise in an attempt to devalue relevant points.
“While I feel pain for the fact that my daughter would have been 21 soon, she was planned and wanted.”
“once she reached a stage of development where her life would have been viable outside the womb she became a person.”
Because you have no way of knowing whether or not the blob of cells that exited your wife’s body would have been viable or not, how dare you refer to this blob of cells as your daughter. Viability occurs during different weeks for different blobs and some blobs never become viable as in the case of the blob you wrongly refer to as your daughter. Daughter is a term we use for human persons not for blobs of cells.
Be careful of the language you use. Remember proaborts need to always dehumanize products of conceptions.
Bethany, I am not lying. She was pregnant,
I believe she was pregnant. I do not believe your assertion that she did not bond with her child before birth. It is a lie.
and she was waiting to see what would come of it. She was looking forward to the ‘child’ which would emerge from the process.
I’m sure her words might be a little different than yours.
And if testing has shown it was not viable she would have terminated.
and I’m sure you didn’t suggest this course of action at all. ( BTW, how was she viable if she did not survive? )
I am not in denial. I accept reality and life.
You accept death. You deny life to others.
I don’t hedge my bets with nefarious beliefs.
Nefarious? LOL
Bethany, because she had reached the stage where she would have been viable outside the womb if she had been alive.
But she wasn’t alive, and she wasn’t viable. So how was she a person, according to your logic?
Anti-womens choice,
Choice to WHAT?
anti-peoples choice,
People’s choice to WHAT?
An nobody is trying to stop your choices
You would have stopped my choices based on my location. If I was still in my mother’s womb, I wouldn’t get a chance to have a choice.
No, I do want abortion to be the last resort.
Yeah. Right. If ABSTINENCE fails. So basically, if you actually have sex, you should have an abortion! Sounds like a last resort to me. Right.
Cranium
Sure there is error. Babies grow in wombs. It’s very simple. Not very complicated. So when your presenting your argument maybe at the end you should clarify that lest someone actually believe you. And being the informed man you are I would think you would be aware of the risk you subject minors to when you interfere with their right to know that self control is a very real option. Something that was denied to me and could have cost me my life. Keep all the arguments none of them have the value of what was stolen from me. As a parent it is the right of and responsibility of the parent not the state to educate their children about the difference between sex and love. Unless of course the state is prepared to accept responsibility for their very very poor parenting. Something I’m believing will begin to happen when people realize that judicial system is still very effective.
Misrepresentations, selective addressing of incomplete tracts of text and assuming other people think as you do are not constructive arguments.
Bethany, abstinence is affective while it is practiced. Trouble is its not practiced all that well.
Yes I DO think abortion is the last resort. But others don’t, and that’s their CHOICE. I did not change my mind, I allow others to think for themselves, and make THEIR choice. Just like I would never, ever expect you to choose abortion.
Praxedes, the fetus died in the last 24 hours before birth. Did you not read that? There were no defects, it was a physiological issue with the womb. If she had been born 24 hours earlier, she would have lived. It is you who dehumanizes the populace with your expectation that everyone live according to what you believe.
Bethany, I did not state that you did not believe she was pregnant, don’t curtail my statements to suit your needs. You have no idea of how she was thinking or feeling or what went on in her head. You believe in god, she doesn’t, there’s a fundamental difference to begin with!
I would not have suggested any course of action. That would have been her choice. I would have ventured an opinion if asked. The baby was viable – see above.
We all accept death, you cannot claim otherwise. It is people of your ilk who carry greater responsibility for the denial of life.
Yes, nefarious. Also delusional, misguided, misled, imaginary and self-denying.
You are anti womens choices regarding sex, contraception and abortion. You are anti peoples choices regarding who they can love and marry, how and when they procreate if desired and their equality in society.
‘So basically, if you actually have sex, you should have an abortion!’ – what extraordinary leap of ignorance and dishonesty leads to this assertion. Mounting arguments like that is why your cause is doomed.
Cranium, what Bethany is trying to get you to answer is IF abortion does not kill a human life, but “potential” human life, then WHY should abortion be the LAST resort? If its not murder why can’t it be the first resort, even for you? Those darn consciences get in the way don’t they? Your own answers belie your qualms that abortion just may be murder!
To say that your wife didn’t bond with the baby before birth just made me snort. Please! I am a mom. I carried my son. I found out I was pregnant through random blood work at the doc’s office when I was THIRTEEN DAYS pregnant and I love my son from the moment I knew he existed though I had no symptoms of pregnancy, no round tummy, felt no kicks. I wasn’t even two weeks pregnant and I loved him. Each day, each week I loved him more and more. When I saw his beating heart on ultrasound at five weeks post-conception I cried because I loved him so much. When I felt his first kick at 14 weeks (pretty early, huh? Not a blob after all!) I loved him. When I got so fat I couldn’t sleep and I could feel him turn over all night long I loved him. When he came out of my body and I held him for the first time I was ALREADY bonded to him! What you said was such a MAN’S statement. Spoken by someone who has never carried a child. Your wife bonded with your daughter. It is impossible not to unless she had a heart of stone, which I highly doubt.
Glad I got that off my chest. Done with my two cents now.
Bethany, abstinence is affective while it is practiced. Trouble is its not practiced all that well.
Of course it isn’t, when teenagers are given the birth control pill and told to try to remain abstinent, but have a backup plan in case they can’t control themselves. What kind of statement does that make to the teenager? It confirms that they are not truly cared about and that no one believes they can control themselves…and if no one believes they can, or even gives them a reason why not to, why should they even try?
If you fail to remain abstinent, it is not abstinence that failed, btw.
Cranium, I did not take your words and twist them. I just made you realize how ridiculous it really sounds. You did say that if abstinence failed (and by that I assume you mean, if a couple ended up having sex and became pregnant as a result), they should be able to have an abortion, which means you do not see it as a last resort. How am I twisting your words when this is what you actually did say?
Yes I DO think abortion is the last resort.
Okay. Why should it be a last resort? You said it’s not a baby till viability. So why does it matter if it’s first or last resort?
You believe in god, she doesn’t, there’s a fundamental difference to begin with!
It’s biology, Cranium. Women are biologically designed to bond with our babies as we progress through pregnancy. We cannot avoid it, atheist or not.
We all accept death, you cannot claim otherwise. It is people of your ilk who carry greater responsibility for the denial of life.
What does that mean?
Yes, nefarious. Also delusional, misguided, misled, imaginary and self-denying.
Thanks for the laugh. I needed that.
Anti-MODERN feminism, yes well. Followed by subjective opinion.
Subjective opinion on what? The fact that early feminism was clearly NOT pro-abortion and has evolved into something the original foremothers would never have intended? No, all you have to do is read their writings. Unless you consider “subjective opinion” to be “everyone else’s opinions but my own.”
‘..women were designed for childbirth, not elective abortion.’ – then how is abortion possible? It’s not a difficult procedure and it’s safer than full-term delivery.
You really want an answer to this? How is abortion possible?? By artificially dilating a woman’s uterus, inserting a sharp instrument known as a curette and/or a vacuum aspirator and by dismembering the growing, developing human within. Sure, a 1st trimester abortion may be safer than childbirth, but it isn’t more natural. What is the purpose of the uterus, Cranium?
I’ll let you have your own thoughts on eugenics.
Oh, well, thanks for allowing me to have my own thoughts. What does this even mean???
You said no one can FORCE someone to become pregnant. Those were your words. Just because some women cannot get pregnant does not change the premise.
That is exactly right. No one can FORCE someone to CONCEIVE. You still aren’t getting this. Just because someone forces sex does not mean someone can force conception. Conception is not an act of will.
We are an advanced species. We do not need to procreate if we do not wish to do so. If you insist that the ‘natural’ course of events should be accepted, why are you using a car instead of walking?
I am repeating these same things over and over, and you’re clearly not understanding what I’v said already. I stated in a much earlier post that if people don’t want to procreate, why not have hysterectomies or tubal ligations? Sex causes pregnancy – you said it yourself. Contraception is not 100% reliable. Therefore, anyone having sex should be prepared to deal with the consequence of a new life that might result from sex as a NATURAL CONSEQUENCE.
Why use a car instead of walk? If I knew that every time I used a car, I’d kill someone, I’d be walking, how’s that? We are talking about disposing of human life here, you realize that, right? Not about modes of transportation. We are discussing the fact that sex causes pregnancy, not because it “can” but because it was designed to do so. The purpose of sex is to make new people. This is biological fact.
Blah blah, another little rant about post-conception inevitability. try getting out of the stone age. You have abrogated your ultimate personal responsibility to ‘faith’ – then you try to tell others how to live!?
I think we’re done with this conversation. If you can’t respond respectfully without “blah blahs” then you’re really not worth my time or energy. You don’t want to understand, therefore you won’t.
Just one last question before I go: what was your daughter’s name?
Unfortunately Myrtle, too many parents are either unwilling or unable to handle the right and responsibility to educate their children about the difference between sex and love, at least with honesty and accuracy.
No new arguments from Sydney M or Bethany. Abstinence programs do not work, even when contraception is not available. Heard of santorum?
Abortion as a last resort because it is most invasive of the woman’s body. Still safer than birth of course.
Your wish to impose your beliefs and behaviors on others, in the wider context, causes significant harm in the world.
If you fail to remain abstinent, it is not abstinence that failed, btw.
Very true, Bethany.
This:
‘..women were designed for childbirth, not elective abortion.’ – then how is abortion possible?
then this:
Abortion as a last resort because it is most invasive of the woman’s body.
I think you just answered your own question, and I bet you don’t even realize it.
No Cranium…I didn’t touch on abstinence. You didn’t respond to what I was asking. Is that because you know you CAN’T without giving up the jig? Bethany and I asked you, if abortion is NOT THE MURDER of an unborn child then WHY shouldn’t it be a first resort? Why must it be last, as you say? Answer it Cranium! Can you? Bet you can’t. Figures.
Abortion is NOT safer than childbirth by the way. Yes, there are far more reported cases of death during delivery than death during abortion. But when you look at the NUMBERS of women giving birth each year (approx 6 million) to those having abortions (about one million) then you see that the PERCENTAGE of women having complications from abortion is HIGHER, much much higher, than the percentage of women having complications during delivery. So really, childbirth is actually safer than abortion.
Bethany
August 27th, 2010 at 6:31 am
Mother in Texas, I published your comments! Sometimes when there are multiple links, the spam filter picks it up.
==============================
Thanks, Bethany!
It looks like Cranium gave up! I asked him some very clear questions. which he has yet to respond to (and I see Kel and Sydney have done the same thing) and he claims “well, no new arguments”. Yeah, okay.
“If she had been born 24 hours earlier, she would have lived.”
Cranium, You have absolutely zero chance of proving this. It is just more of your opinionated diatribe.
The unborn are not just human sons and daughters when they contain your DNA but human sons and daughters across the board starting at conception.
Next time you speak with your homicidal maniac abortion-funding heroine, invite her to come talk with the gals above. After funding almost 19,000 human deaths, I’m sure she has her arguments lined-up.
Bethany
The question you asked on your 9:32 p.m. post, I can’t answer for others but the message I got was that your not worth the time and effort to be told theres a better way. I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit in 1987 and when not with my ex who was my husband then abstinence is what I practiced. I’ve been divorced for 10 years and that’s what I practice it works really well. And I have more control over my own life. It’s not that abstinence doesn’t work it’s that there is no money to be made off of abstinence so a generation is being sold out because of greed. And infants are being killed because of morally bankrupt people who are running the show. Have you ever noticed that when the argument is presented for sex education and handing out contraceptives and giving minors access to abortions without parental consent it’s always made in the name of science. I’m believing that good science is what will shine a little light on their very poor arguments.
Myrtle, I couldn’t agree with you more, on every point.
(And I really enjoy reading all of your posts, btw. )
Bethany
I enjoy reading yours too and most of the others that post here. I’m not able yet to present my argument in a correct manner but I think the majority of what I post is just common sense. I’m taking critical thinking this semester so hopefully my arguments get better.
Sorry for my absence folks, I had stuff to do.
Kel, abortion is the most invasive form of contraception. It is till a relatively straightforward procedure so to say women weren’t designed for it is disingenuous. A caesarian is also invasive as are various forms of assisted delivery.
Sydney M., I did say why it should be the last resort – because it is the least simple method of contraception. No it is not murder.
And you are so wrong Sydney. Abortion IS safer than childbirth. By a RATE of 9-11 times. That’s the RATE, not raw numbers. As in percentage. Don’t be dishonest with the evidence.
Praxedes, it is not my ‘opinionated diatribe’, it is medical fact as determined by the medicos and supported by an autopsy. You have no idea.
Myrtle, what you say is nice but is subjective and non-evidential.
The ‘blah blah’ response Kel, was because you made a faith based statement and that holds no meaning for me.
Kel, abortion is the most invasive form of contraception.
Abortion isn’t contraception.
contraception [?k?ntr??s?p??n]
n
(Sociology) the intentional prevention of conception by artificial or natural means. Artificial methods in common use include preventing the sperm from reaching the ovum (using condoms, diaphragms, etc.), inhibiting ovulation (using oral contraceptive pills), preventing implantation (using intrauterine devices), killing the sperm (using spermicides), and preventing the sperm from entering the seminal fluid (by vasectomy). Natural methods include the rhythm method and coitus interruptus Compare birth control, family planning
[from contra- + conception]
The ‘blah blah’ response Kel, was because you made a faith based statement and that holds no meaning for me.
I only made a statement regarding my faith because YOU brought it up. (Interesting, isn’t it?) But I guess you’re so busy “blah blahing” that you didn’t realize it.
See ya around.
OK, it’s not ‘contraception’, it’s birth control still though.
Well, killing an infant as he’s being born on his due date could be called “birth control” too, if you think about it. But is that really what it would be?
Yep, check out the history of the Spartans.
And so your point is that it is acceptable?
Help me if I don’t understand, but you claim birth control is a positive thing- and then when I say killing infants is also birth control, you agree. So is killing infants a positive thing?
I didn’t say that Bethany. I’m just saying it happens. The Spartans did it as a form of post-natal removal of the unfit.
I’ve never said anything about killing infants, only terminating fetuses.
Are you okay with post-natal removing of the “unfit”?
I’ve never said anything about killing infants, only terminating fetuses.
You have yet to explain what makes a fetus different than an infant, besides age of development and location.
Cranium
And what enlightened one is subjective and not evidential that I have said be specific. If you have the presence of mind to present an argument you should have the presence of mind to know it’s a baby growing in there. If a moma doesn’t want her baby she can wait nine months and give it up for adoption. If her life is truly at risk then the baby can be delivered and reasonable efforts made to save it. What’s subjective is you believing that if you tell a lie long enough you might start to believe it. Next time you make your argument try this look at an ultrasound of an unborn baby, hum a lullaby to yourself and remember it’s a baby they’re killing. After doing that present your lies in a manner that will make you feel very objective and I will laugh subjectively at your denial.
I did Bethany, it’s when it’s capable of independent breathing. But location is good too. While it’s internal, it can be dealt with as the mother chooses.
Um, Myrtle – ‘And what enlightened one is subjective and not evidential that I have said be specific’ – huh?
‘If you have the presence of mind to present an argument you should have the presence of mind to know it’s a baby growing in there’ – subjective opinion.
‘If a moma doesn’t want her baby she can wait nine months and give it up for adoption’ – or she can abort it anywhere along the way.
‘If her life is truly at risk then the baby can be delivered and reasonable efforts made to save it’ – I disagree. What if she’s already dead?
‘What’s subjective is you believing that if you tell a lie long enough you might start to believe it.’ – I don’t tell lies. Some of what I say is subjective, some objective. You may not agree, but I do not ‘lie’. I’ll leave that to the church hierarchy.
‘Next time you make your argument try this look at an ultrasound of an unborn baby, hum a lullaby to yourself and remember it’s a baby they’re killing’ – I’ve seen ultrasounds. Of my son. Of my daughter. Of my torn thigh muscle. I hum a lot. It’s not a baby.
The laugh Myrtle, is on those who are incapable of taking responsibility for themselves and their behavior. The ‘christians’ who say they would be murdering rapists if they did not have the ‘word of the lord’. Those who have a mental or intellectual space that needs filling with imaginary deities. Mind you, it’s s sympathetic laugh.
I did Bethany, it’s when it’s capable of independent breathing. But location is good too. While it’s internal, it can be dealt with as the mother chooses.
Well, of course it CAN be dealt with as the mother chooses. It COULD be dealt with as the mother chooses after birth too, so I’m not sure what this statement was meant to prove?
Your opinion (on the humanity of the unborn) needs to be backed up with some sort of fact. Otherwise, you’re just spouting off hot air. You don’t explain WHY a fetus needs to be breathing in order to be a human being. I could just as easily claim that chimpanzees procreate by spawning, or that trees are made of cheese.
Tell me, Cranium, what would you say to Peter Singer, who states that a child is not a human being until it has self awareness, at 18 months of age, and therefore can be killed as newborns without it being murder? How would you argue with it?
The difference between internal and external Bethany.
What sort of fact do you want my opinion backed up with? What sort of fact do you back your opinion up with?
Because it can’t survive without either relying on the woman or being capable of breathing on it’s own. Your attempted comparison is facile.
I’d say he has a good point. Maybe just being able to breath is too soon a cut-off point. Some congenital deficiencies don’t become apparent for several months after birth.
Then you cannot prove your daughter was a person, according to your own logic. Since you say some congenital deficiencies don’t become apparent until several months after birth, so there is no reason to assume that if your daughter had lived after birth,that it would have been murder to kill her. Correct?
Cranium, do you consider people of certain races and color to be unfit as well? Just curious.
What sort of fact do you want my opinion backed up with? What sort of fact do you back your opinion up with?
Scientific proof.
No, Cranium, abortion is NOT safer than childbirth. More women give birth each year than seek abortions, so when you look at PERCENTAGES as I already explained, abortion is much much more dangerous. You have a higher risk of complication by abortion than complication during birth.
Secondly, your criteria for being allowed to live is “independent breathing”???? Well, sir, may I suggest you never go in for surgery and be “put under” and need assistance in breathing or else, I wouldn’t fault anyone for killing you. Its no loss, really, after all at that point you were NOT breathing independently so you weren’t a person.
And yet you think those of us who believe in God are the unintelligent ones? Not very intellectual? And you believe “independent breathing” gives you the right to live. You are a fool! Some day when you are in need of medical treatment I hope someone throws your words back in your face. So foolish.
Color and race has no bearing Bethany, none at all. Unlike Glenn Beck’s little bigot-fest on the weekend.
Exactly what is that you want scientific proof of? And then what sort of proof will you provide for your rejoinder?
Sydney M., you are 100% wrong. All the data, from various sources prove that full-term delivery is 9-11 times more fatal than abortion. And as I said, that’s the RATE, the PERCENTAGE, not raw numbers. You are just plain wrong.
Independent breathing as an indicator of independent life beginning. Thus, the establishment of an individual person (although Peter Singer may have a point).
Who’s god should I believe in? Which one? We are both atheist, I only believe in one less god than you do.
Cranium
The unborn human baby, what do you equate it with. In your mind what value does it possess? Do you feel that because for a season it is dependent on the good will of it’s mother that the babies value in some way is diminished because it is vulnerable. How do you feel about people that are really sick and need a little more time and effort put in to their care? We had a doctor in our state that decided to take matters into her own hands during Katrina and several elderly people died because of her actions. Tell me how you really think the vulnerable should be treated and I will help you to identify your god. Have you found cranium that for every excuse that an individual every utters there is someone else in that same predicament that is not only handling the situation but is doing a good job at it. That’s how my God reminds me that the goal is to keep on striving.
I don’t equate it to anything. A fetus is a fetus, not a bus or a sandwich or a story or a song.
Potential value.
Not diminished, just what it is.
Not a problem.
Bad doctor.
According to the situation.
No god, nothing to identify.
Yep, including those who do marvelous things and lead marvelous lives without the need to lean on mythology.
You really can remind yourself you know, it is in you, you are capable of it. Just lift that veil.
Cranium,
You have no proof that God does not exist. It’s all in your mind.
Color and race has no bearing Bethany, none at all…Color and race has no bearing Bethany, none at all. Unlike Glenn Beck’s little bigot-fest on the weekend.
Cause we all know that would be so much worse than discriminating against a disabled baby…
Exactly what is that you want scientific proof of? And then what sort of proof will you provide for your rejoinder?
I wonder. Maybe for the many absurd claims you’ve made thus far, such as that the human fetus is not a human being based on criteria such as the ability to breathe.
Sydney M., you are 100% wrong. All the data, from various sources prove that full-term delivery is 9-11 times more fatal than abortion. And as I said, that’s the RATE, the PERCENTAGE, not raw numbers. You are just plain wrong.
I love you how provide no numbers or evidence of your own, just keep saying “Is not!” But feel free to keep believing that your opinion makes it true.
Independent breathing as an indicator of independent life beginning. Thus, the establishment of an individual person (although Peter Singer may have a point).
So you are that easily convinced that infanticide is okay. That is one good reason that setting such an arbitrary and meaningless criteria for “independent life beginning” is such a bad idea. I could just as easily say that my son will not be a human being until he’s living on his own, when he’s an adult, because then he’ll be more “independent”. That’s just stupid.
Who’s god should I believe in? Which one? We are both atheist, I only believe in one less god than you do.
I don’t really care what your religious beliefs are.
“We are both atheist, I only believe in one less god than you do.”
If we want to trivialize this and turn it into a silly little math game, then the number of gods I believe in is infinitely many times more than the number of gods you believe in.
I would be happy to engage in a substative discussion of the existence of God, but these repeated sound bits do nothing to promote serious discussion.
cranium
I have no problem with my God reminding me, he helps me to see past myself. He also gives me balance and lets me know that alas the world does not revolve around me. I find it reassuring to know that actions still have consequences. When you respond to my post try not to be condescending it irritates me. Speaking of feelings how do feel about the demise of unborn babies who never had the opportunity to ride a bus or eat a sandwich made by their mom and whose stories will never be written. Try not to write from what you consider to be an intellectual standpoint. Tell me what you really think about an innocent baby dying at the hands of an individual who took an oath to uphold life. Not what your mind says, although I’m not sure how you’ve convinced yourself that is not a baby, but what your heart and soul tell you. Seeing as how you have no god hopefully you have some type of moral compass. Perhaps it is broken.
Glenn Beck can do more harm to society than the choice to terminate a non-viable fetus Bethany.
It is a scientific fact that a fetus cannot breath on its own until late in gestation, and even then it requires assistance.
OK, how many independent sources of data do you want which demonstrate the mortality RATE of delivery versus abortion? 2? 3? More? But you expect us to believe Sydney M.’s opinion?
‘So you are that easily convinced that infanticide is okay’ – putting words in my mouth now Bethany? I merely said he may have a point.
‘I don’t really care what your religious beliefs are’ – I don’t have any.
Bobby, once you have worked out why you reject all the other gods, you will understand why I reject yours.
So god is a crutch for you Myrtle? A reinforcement for your inability to cope?
I also well know that actions have consequences.
Your questions about babies, buses and sandwiches has no meaning for me.
My heart and soul have no conflict with my mind.
I have a well-developed moral compass. Humans have had a moral compass for aeons. Where do you think the bible gets its foundation from?
Dude, what is your obsession with Glenn Beck? He has nothing to do with anything.
And if you think someone has a point that infants are not humans, then I see no difference in you and Peter Singer.
Glenn Beck is symptomatic of the malaise of ultra-conservative, fundamental religious perniciousness attempting to weave its tentacles through society.
Meh.
“It is a scientific fact that a fetus cannot breath on its own until late in gestation, and even then it requires assistance.”
So if the fetus is born alive but cannot breathe on his/her own, is he/she considered human in your eyes? If your daughter had been born alive but required assistance to breath outside of the womb, would she be a human to you? Would you have told the docs to withhold oxygen from her to see if she could do it without help?
My friend’s baby went to the emergency room this summer 2 months after he was born. He was having difficulty breathing and he was put on oxygen. For the two days he required assistance breathing, was he not human and only became human again when he breathed on his own?
I really do try to understand the athiest/proabort mentality. I guess God takes me seriously when I beg him to please keep me simple. He also knows my biggest fear is that I return to the time and state I was in when I was as indifferent to Him as you are now.
Did you have a funeral for your beautiful baby girl?
No Praxedes, it would appear you haven’t been paying attention. Under the criteria I have alluded to, your friends child was a human and the necessary treatment was due.
Is begging god to keep you simple a self-fulfilling thing? I’m not indifferent to him, he does not exist.
I did some years later, on my own.
Cranium…the mortality rate of birth vs abortion is not my “opinion”. I got my data a few years ago from the CDC website. where did you get your “facts”? The Planned Parenthood website?
WHAT DOES BREATHING INDEPENDENTLY HAVE TO DO WITH BEING A PERSON WHO SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO LIVE???? Answer this Cranium without some snarky little comeback. Think about what you’re saying. Its INSANE. If you are having surgery and you can’t breathe on your own and they intubate you can I MORALLY (not LEGALLY, cause I don’t care about that…I am asking MORALLY) kill you? Will it not matter if I take a knife and stab you in the heart? Because after all, you are not breathing on your own and according to you independent breathing is the hallmark of personhood. you can’t answer this with a straight answer because you know breathing has NOTHING to do with humanity. Dogs breathe, birds breathe, heck even fish “breathe” when you get down to it. What makes homicide..the willful murder of a human being so disgusting? Why does society despise murderers more so than shoplifters or arsonists? Breathing only defines personhood in the mind of someone whose conscience is so twisted he can’t speak straight anymore.
“Is begging god to keep you simple a self-fulfilling thing?”
No, that would be years ago when I begged myself to make my life simple and I continued down more and more complicated paths.
When I sincerely asked Him to take over, He did.
Then Sydney M. you have either read the CDC data wrong or are misrepresenting it. Care to supply the link?
Here’s one I found: http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fact1.htm
You either did not read what I said, didn’t understand it, or are misrepresenting it. Your little diatribe is unrelated to what I have described.
Typical. You can’t answer the questions I posed so you stick your nose in the air and claim that I just didn’t understand. No, my “diatribe” was questioning an absurd statement you made on this thread that you now just ignore. Is that because delving into that statement would turn into such semantics to defend it that you would have a brain aneurysm?
Oh yeah! Religioustolerance.org! Theres REAL non-biased data for you!
I can read data thanks. I didn’t misunderstand the CDC. You are wrong Cranium. You are wrong. You are wrong. I will find you a link that suits your rock-hard head. I will try to do so today. Abortion causes more harm to women than birth. But I will find that link for you. And even then you won’t believe it.
Here is one link…its not the CDC link. That was a few years ago but I will try to find it again. But here is one link…read the whole article if you can take it cranium. Its written by a medical doctor Cranium. It goes through many many many reasons why abortion is more dangerous than childbirth. Most of it is common sense. See if you can wrap your head around it.
http://www.abortiontruths.net/abortionvschildbirth2.html
I want to add, that even if they perfected abortion to the point where NO women ever bled to death or died of embolisms and NEVER got cancer afterwards how would it then stand to reason that abortion has NOT killed a living, unique (albeit dependent) human being? The safety or non-safety of abortion does not affect the humanity of the unborn at all. But if you truly cared for women you would not insist that women have their cervixes forcibly dilated, sharp curettes stuck blindly into their blood engorged wombs and emotional trauma dumped on us. Abortion does not help women and certainly does not help the unborn child.
One more thing…. latent abortion morbidity is when the abortion has damaged the woman so that she or her future offspring later die. Birth which would have been safe can become more dangerous to mother and child because of a previous abortion. I have watched this PERSONALLY happen to two of my friends. Both women had had a previous abortion. Both had later “wanted” children and both suddenly in the 8th month began to hemorrhage. The placentas were detaching because they never adhered correctly because of a “toughening” as the one doc put it of the uterine wall because of their past abortions! They almost lost their daughters and they almost bled to death themselves. So if they had died you would have claimed “See! See! I told you that birth is more dangerous than abortion!” when it was actually their previous abortions that put their lives at risk!
Sydney, that is so true. Not to mention that a lot of times abortion deaths are not listed correctly as being due to abortion. When a woman dies from a complication after having an abortion, it will much of the time be listed as the complication, and not the abortion, for the cause of death. There are soooo many more abortion deaths than are ever listed on the record because abortion has to be protected no matter what it does to women or their babies.
That is correct Bethany. The book Lime 5 explained the coding used on death certificates that the CDC used. It showed how abortion deaths were often not attributed to abortion. But even so, a few years ago (I think it was in 2007) the CDC had a “blurb” as I call it, on their website about abortion morbidity vs. birth morbidity. And I’m talking maternal morbidity because we know that abortion almost always kills the child. The CDC website actually admitted that abortion is more dangerous than birth. If I get time today I am going to try to find that link again for Cranium. Its just a matter of having time to sit down and actually do it.
Cranium
That’s why I think I don’t do a lot of research when it comes to prove to someone that a baby is indeed a baby whether born or unborn. I could hand you all kind of statistics but you said it really well when you said your heart and soul have no conflict with your mind. Hope they bring you joy.
Oh yeah! Abortiontruths.net! There’s REAL non-biased data for you! A site full of numerous claims which have been scientifically disproven.
Let me help, since you haven’t provided the CDC data:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5202a1.htm#fig1
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5511a1.htm#tab19
And from one of their reports: Compared with the early 1970s, the annual number of deaths associated with known legal induced abortion in the early 2000s has decreased by approximately two thirds (Table 19). In 1972, a total of 24 women died from causes known to be associated with legal abortions, and 39 died as a result of known illegal abortions. No more than two deaths have occurred as a result of known illegal abortion in any year since 1979. In 2002, nine women died as a result of legal induced abortion, and none died as a result of illegal induced abortion.
‘There are soooo many more abortion deaths than are ever listed on the record’ – tripe. The data is sourced from a variety of aspects.
Lime 5? Ha ha ha ha ha. Everything Mr.Crutcher has published has been so thoroughly discredited that he’s a joke.
You are SO wrong Sydney M.
Everything in the book Lime 5 has been documented. I’d be surprised if you could bring me anything, anywhere, that proved any of the many court documents that Mark Crutcher shared in the book Lime 5 had been truly “discredited”.
Yes, by the author. Drawn from newspaper clippings, anecdotal urban myths and the lies of acolytes.
“many court documents” – it may claim that on the cover but can you cite ‘many’?
His reasons, his rationale, his business interests and his legal activities all display the book for what it is. An unsubstantiated diatribe claiming that even the most pure of sources and tested truths are not true because they are not what he wants people to believe.
Have not looked for that CDC link yet Cranium. Think about it from a COMMON SENSE standpoint. You are standing here arguing with women who have been through birth, Bethany has been through it many times. I myself have been through it only one time so far. But just THINK about what the uterus and cervix are FOR!!! You do NOT have to have a cervix or uterus or ovaries to have sex so why do women have them? Their function is to provide a home for a growing human being!
In abortion the cervix is forcibly dilated in a matter of seconds when in labor it dilates over days. In abortion the cervix is manually dilated which damages it while in birth it is natural hormones that accomplish dilation. in abortion the pregnancy is dramatically and suddenly ended and especially when done early in pregnancy this wreaks havoc on the woman’s system hormonally. During birth so many hormones are naturally triggered that the body realizes what is happening and pregnancy is terminated in the way nature (or God) planned. Studies have even shown that during miscarriage the body shifts its hormones. My friend knew she was going to miscarry while her baby still had a heartbeat because blood work showed that her hormones were falling. About a week later she did start bleeding and passed her baby. That was a natural death that did not wreak havoc on her body.
During pregnancy the uterus is engorged in blood and is more susceptible to perforation than a non-pregnant uterus. During an abortion doctors cannot see what they are doing. They are shoving sharp instruments into the woman’s womb to dismember and suction the child out. Perforation is far more common than you’d think.
No one is claiming that there are never any complications during birth but to say that abortion which is an unnatural act is safer than birth which is what the uterus was DESIGNED FOR is just silly!
You provide me the link…a REAL NON-BIASE LINK that supports your absurd claim that abortion is 9-11 times safer than childbirth (which to me sounds like numbers you pulled out of your hat). I will hopefully have time to sit down and really find that CDC link for you…which will be hard to find since it was about 3 years ago that I saw it. But I will search for it.
um, I provided the CDC links for you Sydney M. – they’re up the page a bit.
As with most statistical records the general agreement is that abortion deaths are about 0.7 in every 100,000 compared to death at birth rates of between 10.0 and 13.0 per 100,000.
The ‘REAL NON-BIASED LINKS’ are there for you.
Well I looked a little but cannot pull up the links from the CDC. These links that I am talking about from the CDC were from several years ago. I showed them to another pro-choicer who was making the same false statements you have. This page from the CDC had data and graphs to show that abortion had more instances of complication per 1,000 than birth.
You keep stressing percentages but that is just what I’m saying too and you don’t seem to get it. MORE WOMEN GIVE BIRTH THAN HAVE ABORTIONS so when you say “Well more women are hurt or die giving birth than having an abortion” you have to look at HOW MANY women are doing both. So the PERCENTAGE of complications during abortion vs birth is much higher.
You also must realize that all abortion deaths are not reported as such and sometimes are coded in such a way as to cover up that abortion was involved. So a woman goes into cardiac arrest during abortion they might code her death has cardiac arrest but make no mention that it happened during an abortion. Not so with births. Or if a woman dies of an embolism they might make no mention of the abortion that brought it on.
I’m sure Eileen Smith would just agree with you how safe abortion is. Her daughter Laura Hope Smith is dead because of “safe” and legal abortion. I bet if she had that baby both she and the child would be safe and healthy and alive today. I told you I have seen my own friends suffer catastrophic complications during later pregnancies because of earlier abortions. But you would see them bleeding and dying during pre-term labor and say “See? I told you birth is dangerous!” when it is precisely because of their past abortions that they had the complications they had.
So since you believe abortion is so easy and risk free and birth is so dangerously horrible, do you think all women should abort EVERY pregnancy?
You’re doing a very good job of avoiding the CDC data aren’t you. “Oh, I can’t find it at the moment’, ‘I’m a bit too busy/ill at the moment’, ‘I saw it several years ago’. I’ve posted it. Can you not see it, or do you not want to see it? If you think it’s not right, show me what is, don’t just mumble about it.
Nope. I’ve provided the CDC data. It shows you are wrong. It show that the death rate from full-term delivery is 9-11 times higher than the death rate from abortion. You are the one making false statements. And your claims regarding complications are also fallacious.
And again you make a garbled sentence about numbers and rates and percentages. Let’s be clear about this. The death ‘rate’ from delivery is not higher because of the greater number of deliveries compared to abortions – that would be death ‘numbers’. The death ‘rate’ from delivery is higher because for each woman who delivers, her chances of dying are 9-11 times higher than for each woman having an abortion.
The CDC defines a number of methods used to collect information on deaths. So the old canard about ‘hidden’ deaths is spurious.
Would you like me to come up with a list of names of women who have died during a supposed ‘normal’ delivery? Citing a case and name does not change the statistics or the facts.