What’s wrong with “That’s so abortion”?
Shayna at the Abortion Gang blog has alerted us with disapproval to a new bit of contemporary American slang, “That’s so abortion”:
It seems like every decade has its non-PC, misused term to indicate failure. The ’90s had “gay” and the ’00s had “retarded” and now it seems that ’10 is starting off this decade with “abortion,” as in “that movie was an abortion” or “you’re a failed abortion.”
Abortion Gang’s negative reaction to the trivialization of the word “abortion” surprised me. I expected cheers. When Fox refused to air the Family Guy abortion episode last year pro-abort Sarah Seltzer at RH Reality Check wrote that one of the ways to mainstream abortion would be to do just that, maybe even add a few laughs…
But conversely the lack of abortion jokes creates this hyped-up atmosphere of tragedy and controversy around something that is quite common and needs to be discussed more.
Even if Seth McFarlane and the Family Guy team failed miserably to be funny or edgy in their attempts to milk humor from abortion, even if they were crass and sexist, I’d hope the episode would be an opening salvo for more comics, artists and others to talk about this reality in women’s lives that, like all realities, has to contain fodder for humor.
Feministing blamed us for keeping “abortion” such an uptight word:
I guess no one is seeing the real humor in that unless you are avidly pro-life and anti-women’s right to choose, abortion is not really a fringe topic that is so edgy it must be banned from TV.
We also have comedians Ragan Fox, Chris Rock, and Sarah Silverman joking about abortion.
So we have a difference of opinion amongst pro-aborts on whether to josh about abortion or keep it deadly serious, pardon the pun.
I always enjoy conflict in their ranks. But this one is luscious. Exactly why is Shayna frowning on the frivolous use of the word “abortion”? Pro-lifers got into her head. She’s paranoid. Nor does she like “abortion” compared to “epic fail”:
[E]very time someone refers to a bad driver as a “failed abortion” they push abortion – and every reproductive justice activist, woman who has had an abortion, doctor who performs these procedures, and pro-choice politicians further out of the realm of mainstream acceptance….
I would rather the term “abortion” remain spoken out loud only in the safe haven that clinics and select OB/GYN offices have become than be bastardized by those ignorant individuals prone to outrageous overstatement and exaggeration. And yes, that is what you sound like when you use words like “gay” and “retarded” and “abortion” to describe what you don’t like – ignorant and ridiculous.
So why resort to using inaccurate terms that make you sound like an idiot, and stigmatize an important component of reproductive justice?
I guess Shayna will object to my saying abortion supporters are so abortion.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
So, what’s their problem? This BOTHERS them? I thought it was their RIGHT! I thought we were supposed to stop making it a “dirty” word. Pro-abortion = pro-ignorance
The problem with “that’s so abortion” is that it portrays abortion as a BAD thing. It’s used to describe bad movies/TV shows.
If people said “that movie was an abortion” meaning that it was a great movie, I’d be okay with that. But that’s not how they’re using it.
The reading comprehension skills of antis never cease to amaze me.
A Spanish translation of the word abortion:
aborto [ah-bor’ -to]
noun
1. A miscarriage, abortion. (m)
2. A monster. (m)
3. A failure 4. (m)
Ugly man, ugly woman (persona).
So to say “That is so abortion” is like saying ” that is so ugly”
PCG, abortion IS a bad thing. Also, I edited my comment because I wrote it while my daughter was caught in her pajamas so I helped her and then went back and re-read the post. Reading comprehension skills, indeed.
Anyway. Most pro-aborts like to tell us, “Well nobody LIKES abortion….blah blah blah.” I know some of you guys (who probably also are popular commenters on Jezebel) think it’s, like, the BEST THING EVAR! and the linchpin to our freedom, but even most pro-aborts don’t carry it that far. And as a woman I find it to be barbaric, unnecessary, cruel, and completely backwards. Society will never truly, fully accept that abortion is okay. In fact, a lot more people are starting to realize it’s more than “not okay.”
That is because abortion is ugly. no loss in translation there.
I’ve actually never heard that term, not surprising, considering it was probably born on a college campus. So they want it both ways do they? Tough. As much as I try to be respectful when speaking directly with someone, the PC crowd will not influence my everyday life. Next time I tell my dog to stop acting retarded, I’ll think about Shayna. :)
Never heard ANYONE use the term “Thats so abortion”. I think pro-aborts just make stuff up when they run out of things to complain about.
Abortion
That’s so abortion
Never heard ANYONE use the term “Thats so abortion”. I think pro-aborts just make stuff up when they run out of things to complain about.
THIS. Exactly.
Also, they WHINE ALL THE TIME.
MaryLee and Sydney-
If you had actually read the link, you’d see that she was talking about things like this
http://twitter.com/#!/MrDanZak/status/25836418069
(old link that I found a while ago to show to other people, I couldn’t be bothered to dig up a new one). The “that’s so abortion” was obviously to compare this trend to the “That’s so gay” and “that’s so r*tarded” trends.
It’s amazing how you people can post one or two posts and make it painfully obvious that you have no interest in understanding, reading, or doing anything except for eating out of Stanek’s hands.
Sorry pro-choice gal, I didn’t read the link. You’re right. You caught me! I was too busy dealing with my 3 year old who wet the bed. You know, the blob of tissue I allowed to use my body like a parasite and then I allowed him to have human rights and become a child instead of having him suctioned out of my body. That child. Those darn kids always interrupt when you’re going to read a pro-aborts link ya know?
I never used or liked the term ‘that’s so gay’ because I find it to be a negative connotation of gays. Some of you may agree with me.
I never used or likes the term ‘that’s so retarded’ because I find it to be a negative connotation of special needs people. Does anyone disagree with me?
On the same basis I find the term ‘that’s so abortion’ to be equally negative.
The word “abortion” has a variety of meanings in English as well: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abortion
None of the meanings are positive. The word calls to mind an interruption or incomplete process. Which is exactly what an abortion of a pregnancy DOES… If pro-aborts find that offensive, good! They should find it offensive! They should be offended when they confront what abortion really is, not by the people trying to stop this abomination!
I think the point is that it doesn’t specifically offend pro-choicers. It’s just plain offensive, like many other similar things.
But so what if we are offended, it’s not like we’re going to wake up with leprosy or something because of it.
I don’t eat out of Jill’s hand, PCG. I mean, I’m pro-life because I can read biology.
But honestly, why would does it offend you that abortion is seen as a negative thing? It is a negative thing. You guys are doing your best to make it accepted and celebrated, but that won’t happen.
ProChoiceGal,
I realize you have nothing but ridicule to fall back on, but it should be accurate ridicule.
Had you taken the time to read my post completely before jumping on to comment that I hadn’t read Shayna’s post completely, you would have read that I understood her other point: “Nor does she like ‘abortion’ compared to ‘epic fail.'”
Face it, PC. Your hope that abortion will someday be considered normal and even a good thing is never going to happen. Shayna’s post is just more evidence that even the youth culture that has grown up with legalized abortion innately knows it’s sick.
You’re on the losing side, the wrong side of history, PCGal. It’s a downright tragedy that you identify so closely with abortion that you’ve made it your moniker. Have you had one? What is behind your obsession with it?
Aw, MaryLee, why say that? It is accepted, otherwise it wouldn’t be so prevalent would it. And no-one wants to actually ‘celebrate’ it. It’s just a part of life.
Hi Jill, I think this is the first time I’ve responded to you directly.
Abortion is already considered normal, as I said to MaryLee above. It is prevalent, as you have shown us. And people keep doing it.
I do not think PCGal is on the losing side of history. I think the history speaks for itself. Quite clearly.
If you follow debates about China’s one child policy, it does not hinge on the fact that women there have abortions, it hinges on the fact that people are denied the right to have a second child. It’s the ‘permission’ thing, not the methodology which is argued. There is a difference.
I’m pretty sure when a NASA astronaut says to abort the mission, a bad thing is happening.
“Abortion is already considered normal”
Cranium, Just because abortion is considered normal by you and proaborts like ProChoiceGal doesn’t mean it is normal.
There were people who actually considered slavery to be normal. We know those who considered that were far from normal.
Haven’t the proaborts given us such wonderful advice already??
If you don’t like abortion, don’t have one.
If you don’t like THAT’S SO ABORTION, don’t say it.
I don’t believe abortion is considered “normal”, although it is far too accepted in popular culture (especially TV/movies, etc.). But here’s something to chew on: I don’t care if the whole world accepts, celebrates, and/or considers abortion “normal”, “right”, or “good”: it is still wrong, wrong, wrong. Period.
I agree the phrase “that’s so abortion” (which I never heard of before) is negative. Good. Abortion is negative, to put it mildly.
Oddly enough, cranium has hit the nail on the head as to why abortion apologists not only oppose this trend, but have to oppose this trend (if it really catches on, that is).
To be honest, I love this. It’s indicative of what we’ve been saying for so long. Abortion is not an accepted practice, nor is it viewed as “okay” by most people, despite what the abortion apologists keep trying to claim. And while we might claim that abortion is too accepted in the media, it’s not really that accepted even there. TVTropes, a website that catalogs the use of rhetorical devices in fiction, has a whole page of examples for the trope entitled Good Girls Avoid Abortion. Generally speaking, even in media, this isn’t a subject people portray in a good way, if only to avoid polarizing their audience.
Basically, we’re forty years into this procedure becoming commonplace in the US and people still hate it. Sorry, cranium, but you’re wrong again: abortion is not “normal” now. I don’t think it ever will be.
A woman is caught tossing her fast-food bag out the window of her SUV and earns a $500 littering ticket. “Oh man. She got raped.”
Rape can be funny too, yes?
(*crickets)
Didn’t think so.
Cranium, some people DO celebrate their abortions. Remember when MS. magazine had that failure of a campaign where Amy Brenneman or whatever her name is, and other celebrities say “I had an abortion” to “celebrate” their choice? There are parts of the feminist movement that have come out and said abortion is like a “sacrament” to them. If that isn’t celebrating something then what is it?
You know what offends me? Children being torn apart limb by limb.
I celebrate my abortions with a side of toast.
Folks, don’t you know by now that ProChoiceGal and other ‘borts generally think we’re stupid? Whatever.
Of course they do, Phillymiss! Ignorance is bliss. Obviously, they look science squarely in the face and deny it, and believe their semantics can actually change facts. Oh, yeah, THAT’S intelligence.
Jill-
“Had you taken the time to read my post completely before jumping on to comment that I hadn’t read Shayna’s post completely, you would have read that I understood her other point”
Yet you still say that you “expected cheers” from us because people portray abortion as a bad thing.. er, what?
“Face it, PC. Your hope that abortion will someday be considered normal and even a good thing is never going to happen.”
You see, Jill, I have this little thing that affects me in so many positive ways. That little thing is called “faith”. Faith in God, to be specific. People who fought for a woman’s right to vote may have been told that they should just “face it” because “it’s never going to happen”. I’m glad they didn’t listen. I’m not going to give up on women’s rights. That would be shunning God’s purpose for me.
“You’re on the losing side, the wrong side of history, PCGal. It’s a downright tragedy that you identify so closely with abortion that you’ve made it your moniker. Have you had one? What is behind your obsession with it?”
I’m not going to give up on God’s purpose for me because some people are trying to discourage me. I’ve not had an abortion. If I got pregnant on accident I don’t think that pregnancy would be an unwanted pregnancy. You see, this isn’t all about me. It’s about women. If it were all about me, I wouldn’t care about abortion rights very much anyway because that doesn’t necessarily affect me directly. However, taking away reproductive liberty for women would most definitely affect OTHER women. That’s why I’m fighting for it. I know how it feels to have your bodily autonomy violated, so I’m not going to fight for the same thing to happen to other people.
Oh my gosh, PCG, you’re actually using God to support some perverse claim that abortion is okay. Really? Seriously? First of all, I thought all you pro-aborts hated when God is brought up. It just makes you all so MAD! But faith in God…..you actually believe that God, the source of life, and of compassion, and of love, would ever, ever, ever, EVER approve abortion?
Bodily autonomy violated? Psh. Give me a break. Like the unborn are the enemy, infiltrating your womb like tiny Nazis. As a rape survivor, I know what it means to have your body violated. As the mother of a baby born from a crisis pregnancy, I know that the unborn are persons with their own bodies, with the right to exist. I don’t know what God you believe in, but it doesn’t follow that a God of Science and a God of Life would be, to put it bluntly, “on your side.” Since abortion is about death, destruction, selfishness, and “might makes right,” I’m not sure that’s GOD in whom you’ve put your faith.
PCG:
How can you care about what happens to other women when you would have allowed them all to be destroyed by criminal abortionists in the unborn stage?
Twenty years ago, the abortionists were killing millions of unborn children. Now those who were not destroyed (but could easily have been) are in college (or working) and the same opponents of basic human rights are now claiming to stand up for their “rights”.
Do we have a right to a human lifespan or do we not? If we do, we cannot be killed at anytime for any reason. If we do not, nothing that happens to us matters at all.
Apparently part of ‘God’s purpose’ for PCG is attacking and condeming abortion survivor Gianna Jessen. http://dontbuytheabortionlie.blogspot.com/2010/10/proabort-preaches-compassion-spares.html
her little sermonette was so…abortion.
Thanks for the link, Jill! Not surprised at all.
Evidently, PCG seems to think “compassion” means “allowing women to kill their own babies.”….I’m so confused. I’m not sure where she gets that. Whenever pro-aborts talk about compassion, it makes me laugh and cry and also throw up in my mouth.
“Armored Saint” has a brilliant comment:
Victim feminism happened. They run into an actual victim-one who has chosen to be a victor and not a victim, and the claws come out. An actual victim takes the spotlight off their ‘oppression.’ Victim feminism is a self-serving ideology in which actual compassion has no place. All about number one.
Thanks, Mary Lee. We all remember how much ‘compassion’ the ‘gal’ showed rape victims here https://www.jillstanek.com/2010/03/rape-video-game-features-abortion/ in my opinion, ending legal abortion starts with exposing victim feminism for the fraud that it is, it’s the rotten root of the culture of death. Laughable when you consider Roe v Wade was built on perjured rape testimony and decided by 9 men-so much for their oppressive ‘patriarchy’ and ‘rape apologism.’ Hypocrites to the core, who will throw anyone and anything under the bus to protect their legal murder.
Yes, yes, and yes. The ignorance of the pro-abortion community really astonishes me and fascinates me. It’s also very sad.
Speaking of Family Guy and abortion, they did an episode that showed a surprising view of the subject. They were doing a parody of Murder, She Wrote with Angela Lansbury’s character admitting to having had an abortion and saying, “I’m not ashamed.” The Family Guy character Peter, watching this, said, “Aha, so she‘s the killer!”
“ Faith in God”
Molech doesn’t count, dear.
I know how it feels to have your bodily autonomy violated, so I’m not going to fight for the same thing to happen to other people.
Forgive me for assuming, but I believe you are of the view that abortion is fundamentally about a conflict of right to life versus right to bodily autonomy – am I correct?
If that is the case, and if it is your knowledge of the horror of having your bodily autonomy taken away that motivates you, what do you think would be the opinion on this issue of someone who comes from the viewpoint of having her right to life taken away – the natural counterpoint to your point? Assuming any such person were able to walk into this discussion and say, “As someone who knows how it feels to have my right to life violated: ______”?
I am so deeply sorry for the things that happened to you. I admire and appreciate your desire to prevent them from happening to anyone else, in any way.
The rights of the unborn are not diametrically opposed to the rights of the mother; they are intrinsically linked. Why can’t pro-aborts see that? How can we claim the right to bodily autonomy while destroying the body of another?
Oh it’s always about “MY” bodily autonomy, but the baby’s bodily autonomy and basic right to life don’t matter one iota when it comes to the pro-choice/pro-abort camp. They claim to want to lower abortion numbers or that it’s not THEIR personal choice, but they totally don’t bat an eyelash if someone else gets an abortion. Lower abortion numbers? Yeah, right. All they want to do is enforce other forms of highly engineered hormones (i.e. birth control pills, IUDs, contraception rings) and condoms, etc. But education is not high up on the list, neither is encouraging waiting until marriage or understanding that pregnancy is one of the outcomes of sexual intercourse.
Everytime a pro-abort says “I want to lower abortion numbers” the next thing out of their mouth is “Let’s encourage birth control” “let’s encourage the use of condoms and birth control pills” The last thing I ever see/hear is “Let’s encourage abstainance and chastity until marriage, let’s encourage education about cause and effect/consequences of sexual activity.”
It’s all about letting people do whatever the heck they want and who cares what happens? You don’t want a baby? Abort it, that’s the mindset and it’s wrong.
Abortion rights is just one of the fronts this culture war is being fought on, and I hate to be the one to point it out but you “Pro-lifers” are historically on the losing side. When it comes to culture war the conservative side always gives way to the progressive side given enough time. Civil rights, women’s suffrage, and prohibition are just a few examples of ideas that were progressive in the beginning but are now just an everyday part of life in America. In America today I can gamble, drink, smoke marijuana, take a 4 hour erection pill, hire a prostitute, get her an abortion, all while being high on Prozac and its legal! With each new generation the progressive side of the long running culture war in this country gains more ground. Someday this country, and then the world, will be run using facts and science instead of emotions and religious dogma. We as Americans are actually a little bit behind other modern countries in areas like math and science but that’s due to religious zealotry and corporate profits hindering education.
PCG – Trying to change anyone’s mind in this forum is like attacking an insane asylum with a banana… thank you Douglas Adams =)~
Oh BTW I’m not a Witch, I’m nothing you have heard, I’m you…
Hi Biggz.
There was a lot I wanted to respond to, but I think this is the most inaccurate.
“We as Americans are actually a little bit behind other modern countries in areas like math and science but that’s due to religious zealotry and corporate profits hindering education.”
No, we are not behind in math because of religious zealotry. We are behind in math because we teach it from grades K-12 in the most horrid, blood-suckingly dry, reductionist, mindless, robotic way humanly possible. I don’t know anyone in math who teaches that the quadratic formula was discovered through divine revelation, but I am aware of many math teachers who show it to the students without any explanation and then give them 50 problems to which all require using the quadratic formula. Now this isn’t the fault of the teachers, I’m not blaming them, but that isn’t math. Plugging a bunch of numbers into formulas is not math. People being scared of math and striping it down to the most bare-boned monotonous form is what is causing everyone to be turned off of math. It has absolutely nothing to do with religious zealotry. I don’t even know where you would get such a claim. Maybe the religion that says math is evil. If that is what you’re referring to, fine. But honestly, show me examples of where religion is used to make mathematical justifications.
“Trying to change anyone’s mind in this forum is like attacking an insane asylum with a banana”
Wait, how is this cleaver? Couldn’t everyone in the insane asylum potentially be scared of bananas? It could work. Attacking, say, the CIA with a banana would be much more apropos. That is a really bad analogy.
Lauren wrote, in reply to PCG:
Molech doesn’t count, dear.
:) We have a winner…!
Opponents of unborn human rights do not base their “position” in favor of unlimited killing of human beings on “facts” or “science”. Their “position” is based almost entirely on psychological need.
The position supporting unborn human rights is based on and has a solid grounding in biology, moral philosophy and logic. We do not need to twist and distort logic, evade facing the truth, tell every lie in the book, offer one psychologically motivated fallacy after another, do violence to the English language (as well as unborn children) and engage in every type of intellectual dishonesty imaginable to try to get our point across.
ProChoiceGal
Lets be blunt. Let there be no beating around the bush. Abortion blows an unborn child to smithereens? And you support this do you? Your website states that you have Christians in your ranks. Anybody who supports abortion is no longer a Christian. Such people may call themselves Christians but in fact they have jettisoned their Christian beliefs. How do you justify breaking the Fifth Commandment? Remember this Commandment states “Thou shall not kill”.
Have you never looked at an ultrasound. You need to consider the Law of God for a change.
What sort of a society will not protect the unborn child in the womb?
Just remember when we die we are judged by God. Each one of us will be on his/her own.
You can make your peace with God now . Please turn away from the evil of abortion.
Join the pro-life movement. Please stand for life. Abortion is the work of Satan.
Do you want to lose your soul to eternal damnation? Have you ever thought about the fact that any human can face the judgement of God in an instant? Would you feel confident about facing God now if he decided to take you from this life?
Think about it.
By becoming pro life you can do great things for God.
Hey Alexandra. Thanks for being civil.
In a way, yes, it’s about the conflict of the right to life versus the right to bodily autonomy. The thing is, the right to life never should infringe upon the bodily autonomy of others. In the case of a pregnancy, the fetus/embryo is using the woman’s body to live and to grow inside of. The woman is not using the fetus for anything. In the case of a pregnancy, the fetus is a guest (either welcome or unwelcome) in a woman’s womb, and if unwelcome, it’s totally fine for the woman to have an abortion because that fetus is infringing upon her bodily autonomy.
Some say “but isn’t a woman infringing upon the ‘unborn baby’s’ bodily autonomy with abortion” but here is where use comes in. In the same way you can stop someone from someone using your body against your will, a woman can terminate a pregnancy.
As for your second point, such a person’s argument would only hold water if there were killed while not violating a person’s bodily autonomy in any way. So, if a person is killed while in her own home, minding her own business, she could make a case. If a person is killed while raping someone, that person could not make a decent case. If you were to defend the one using people as opposed to the one being used, it’s like someone saying “a person’s right to life should always be respected without exception so we should make defense against crime illegal”
Thanks again for being civil :)
Biggz- I wasn’t really trying to change anyone’s mind, it just kind of peeves me off when people pull a “hey, I’m going to tell YOU what YOU believe instead of, you know, doing that weird ‘reading’ thing” type of thing.
PS- if anyone cares to know my religious history (there seems to be a misconception that I’m a Christian), I was born/raised Catholic. I left the Catholic church but I still believe in God. I don’t belong to any organized religion, I’ve found that I feel much closer to God when I stay away from organized religion.
Soo, with that in mind..
John- Yes, if I were to die right now (and I know that I could very well die any moment) I’d feel confident facing God.
Bobby – First, Math is being held back by the sad state of our public schools and that is due to corporate profits. Science is being held back by religious zealotry. My daughter is a math wiz in high school and when she was in junior high school she said to me “no child left behind is fine, but what about those children that are being held back while we wait for the rest?” Pretty good for a 13yo =)
Second, that was a quote and you can’t really change a quote… funny thing though in the original context Douglas Adams was in fact talking about suing the CIA. Lol
Joe – The problem is that you step over women’s rights to assign rights to a fetus. You cannot woman’s rights away from her in order to give them away. You would force a rape victim into have the baby of her attacker, leaving her to decide on keeping the child that is half her and putting it up for adoption, while throwing her rights out the window. There is no way what so ever to give personhood rights to a fetus without negating the pregnant woman’s rights in the process. Women’s rights come first period.
John – Let’s be blunt. It’s not an unborn child or a preborn baby, it is a fetus, and before that it’s a zygote, before that it’s an egg. I have no problem with a woman destroying the growth inside her, fetus or tumor. Your brand of absolute righteousness does nothing but breed hate and causes giant divides in our society. It is based in a very “dark ages” mentality that should have simply stayed there. You actually believe there is a deity named Satan who is responsible for everything evil in the world? I find it very difficult to have a rational discussion with anyone who still believes in fairy tales and boogiemen…
“First, Math is being held back by the sad state of our public schools and that is due to corporate profits. Science is being held back by religious zealotry. My daughter is a math wiz in high school and when she was in junior high school she said to me “no child left behind is fine, but what about those children that are being held back while we wait for the rest?” Pretty good for a 13yo =)”
Yes, that is great. But first of all you said that math was being held back by religious zealotry. Now you claim it’s science. Yes, no child left behind sucks. How are you getting all this about religion then? Everything else you say is fine about the public schools but it’s just like you HAVE to blame “religion” no matter what you’re talking about.
“You see, this isn’t all about me.”
You’re right PCG. It’s about you repeating an abuse cyle and projecting your pent-up anger out on those who can’t fight back with you.
Instead of a whip or crown of thorns you plan to hold an abortionist’s torture tools. The unborn children represent Christ. In this way, you’ll get to be even closer to God than you’ve ever been.
But you won’t be a Christian.
Just a few points:
Contrary to Biggz point about who’s winning this battle, I am 100% confident that the victory is on pro-life side. Why?
1. Pro-lifers are much more active and better organized (look at any rally or pro-life gathering, the opposing PC forces are WAY outnumbered. And why is that? Because they fight for the “idea”, for the “right”, for “choice”. And for us it’s a life and death matter! Easy to see which cause can be more inspiring and make people more passionate about.
2. Maybe I’ll make a mistake now, for which I’d be grateful if someone corrected me, but for some reason I’ve heard and read many testimonies of Pro-choice people changing their minds and turning pro-life, but try as I might, can’t even recall 1 where it happened other way round? Wonder why that is….
someone using your body against your will, a woman can terminate a pregnancy.
PCG:
This is precisely what I’m talking about when I mention consequences of sexual intercourse/activity and education. When you say a thing like “someone using your body against your will” you’re implying that the pre-born child has a sadistic narsissic design on the mother’s body, which isn’t so. The conception of a child is a natural conclusion of egg plus sperm. When an egg and sperm join together the natural conclusion is conception of a baby.
I have yet to hear of a baby telling people “Hurry up and have sex so that I can be conceived. Get moving I wanna take over the woman’s body.”
That didn’t happen to me when I conceived my kid. When I conceived my kid I had relations with my husband with full knowledge that it was possible that I could conceive a child. Sure, I was surprised that it actually happened (a part of me wondered if it would), but now I’ve got this wonderful kid to show for it. Not someone who forced their way into my body, but someone, through the act of sexual intercourse I INVITED in.
” I’ve heard and read many testimonies of Pro-choice people changing their minds and turning pro-life, but try as I might, can’t even recall 1 where it happened other way round?”
It happened the other way around for a lot of people, myself included. The reason you don’t hear about those stories is because you hang around the anti-choice community.
I’ve found that I feel much closer to God when I stay away from organized religion.
PCG:
Based on the saints’ writing, personal experience, and what other people have told me, faith and being close to God has absolutely nothing to do with how you feel, but everything to do with how you live and believe.
No, I’m not perfect. I am a work in progress and I have to continue that work whether I “feel” close to God or not.
PCG, You were raised in a prolife family. This doesn’t automatically make you prolife. You didn’t choose to be prolife and were never active in the prolife movement by choice. Don’t make it sound like you were prolife for 20 plus years and then became a proabort.
Tell everyone how old you were when you switched your ‘strong’ prolife convictions. If someone is truly prolife and active in our movement, they are unable to ever become a proabort.
Give an example of someone who has been active in the prolife movement and then switched to a proabort mentality.
Bobby I said “We as Americans are actually a little bit behind other modern countries in areas like math and science but that’s due to religious zealotry and corporate profits hindering education.”
I know I attack religion a lot but read what I wrote.
Vita – um… we already won. Abortion is legal and unrestricted. It is accepted by the American Medical Assoc. as a common surgical procedure. How much more could we win? The reason why you don’t see a large turnout of Pro-Choice people or organizations is because we already won this fight back in the 70’s and the anti-choice movement has been screaming and organizing since that day. It’s been close to 40 years since Roe v Wade and you guys are STILL trying to take away women’s rights. Lol how’s that coming for ya? Keep that optimism coming…. lol
The Pro-aborts are the ones taking away “women’s rights”…Pre-born women. I’m tired of hearing the term “women’s rights”, anyway. Women don’t have the “right” to kill their own child. Women in this country already HAVE rights. The right to live, the right to vote, the right to an education, etc. You want to talk about women’s “rights”, go to some Muslim country and talk to them about what a “woman’s right” is.
Do the people here seriously think that abortion is ever going to be made illegal in this country again? Are any of you aware that there is literally not a single first-world country where abortion is completely illegal?
Joan, please check again. Ireland is considered a first world country, and is pro-life. Abortion is illegal there. The right to life from conception to natural death is part of their constitution, and cannot be removed. Therefore, abortion will ALWAYS be illegal there!
As for Biggz saying that religious zealotry in the US is what is holding us back: Do you know what the largest religion in this country is? Catholicism. Catholics are all for the advancement of science. We have made the largest contributions to science. If it weren’t for our Church, we would not have the scientific advancements that we have today. Seriously, you need to check out the book How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization by Thomas E. Woods, Jr., PhD. Therefore, it is NOT religion that is holding back science, but the poor education in this nation, due to people cutting education funds to line their pockets.
I said completely illegal, as in without exceptions whatsoever. Abortion is legal in Ireland if the life of the mother is in danger.
‘If it weren’t for our Church, we would not have the scientific advancements that we have today.’ – that is so far from the truth it isn’t funny.
Yeah, like that’s an independant book. He won a Templeton! Ha Ha Ha.
Joan, no one is saying that there shouldn’t be an exception for the LIFE of the mother. Keep up.
“Do the people here seriously think that abortion is ever going to be made illegal in this country”
I do. Just like slavery was.
Well, let’s go over the so-called “winning” shall we?
If the coercian of women to get abortion is called winning, then yes, pro-aborts have won.
If killing off a human being before he/she even gets out of his or her mother’s womb is called winning, then yes, pro-aborts have won.
If disregarding the American’s Declaration Of Independence, which helped form our country where it says all people have the right “to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness” is winning, then yes, pro-aborts won.
As long as abortion is legal, then if you want to call all the above and that a victory, then yes, suppose pro-aborts “won”.
HOWEVER, based on the fact that I am a woman, I am a mother, I’ve been pregnant, I’ve faced those crazy hormones, and fears, lost a ton of blood giving birth–but STILL was concerned about being around for my kid AND respecting the fact that the child inside of me for all that time was from the very moment of conception a human being, it looks like an incredibly hollow victory and NOT one to brag about.
We pro-lifers have our victories, too. Abortion may be legal, but there’s people who still choose life, who still walk away from abortion, who regret abortion and speak out against it. There’s still people who expose abortion and the industry for what it truly is. And those, folks, are bigger and better victories than the ones the pro-aborts brag about.
In any case, putting all that aside, it’s actually not a question of who so-called “won”, it’s a question of what’s RIGHT. And we all (myself included) must ALWAYS remember that.
Abortion isn’t right. It just plain and simple isn’t.
…no one is saying that there shouldn’t be an exception for the LIFE of the mother. Keep up.
The life of the mother is a very important thing and when there are those situations where it is a question of life and death there isn’t an easy answer. And I sincerely feel for people who get caught in that situation.
However, in general, abortions aren’t usually because of that kind of a situation and the pro-aborts know it. They use it as a way to try and discredit pro-lifers, when in fact it doesn’t change what we pro-lifers stand for.
On a side note: I do know of a situation like that where the mother chose not to abort despite her life being in jepordy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianna_Beretta_Molla and you can also check her out here: http://www.saintgianna.org/main.htm
“Do the people here seriously think that abortion is ever going to be made illegal in this country”
Uh, yeah. We’re headed that way, obviously. But you pro-aborts keep trying to argue with science and logic. It just makes you look like the savages you are.
Upside down logic again Praxedes. We moved to people not being owned. We moved to women being free to vote. We moved to black people being free to vote. We moved to mixed marriages being allowed. We are moving to gay marriage and adoption being allowed. And we moved to women having control of their own bodies.
Cranium, you, nor any other proabort, will ever own any unborn human.
You just think you do.
Hey Alexandra. Thanks for being civil.
Ha! No problem. I used to be around here a lot more, but not really for a while – a massive project at work has kept me working 14-hour days since June, with 2-3 days off per month. But we would probably get along well in real life. I’m in my mid-20’s and live in NYC (Queens, born in Brooklyn). I work in a technical aspect in an arts industry (professional theater) and I’m one of few women in any given working environment. I can weld, use power tools, and drive a 24′ truck; but I also get kinda hipster-crafty with the knitting and sewing, in my downtime.
The doctor who performed my abortion was probably one of the kindest people I’ve met, at a time when not many people were being kind to me. I thanked her profusely afterwards and she looked me in the eye and said, “Please stop thanking me. This was not a favor I did for you – it is your right.” I was so grateful I cried. I have never really felt any emotional anguish or sadness over my abortion, which was about four years ago.
I strive to be an intellectually honest person, above all else – I am not religious and am only privately emotional – and I can see similar lines of reasoning in things you write; and when forming my own opinions I know that I always want to be sure I’m considering alternative viewpoints as much as possible. Thus if one point is: I have had my right to bodily autonomy violated, the counterpoint is: I have had my right to life violated. That’s all I was pointing out.
So I have another question, I guess, or at least another question I naturally come to as a result of this line of reasoning:
The thing is, the right to life never should infringe upon the bodily autonomy of others.
Is there ever a situation where you believe that the right to bodily autononmy can be suspended, similarly to how the right to life can be suspended?
Do you think that a person’s right to bodily autonomy can be suspended if they are using that bodily autonomy to take away another person’s rights? Or does bodily autonomy trump all other rights, in every situation?
In the case of a pregnancy, the fetus is a guest (either welcome or unwelcome) in a woman’s womb, and if unwelcome, it’s totally fine for the woman to have an abortion because that fetus is infringing upon her bodily autonomy.
Following the line of unwelcome guests, do you think that there is any logic to taking into account the mental reasoning or physical capabilities of the person who is the unwelcome guest? ie if there is a hurricane and someone gets, like, shoved into your house on a gust of wind, or something (absurd, yeah, but whatev) have they lost their right to life just the same as if they had broken in with a gun in the middle of the night?
Similarly, how do you feel about things like attractive nuisance doctrines? If something is likely to attract children, the person who owns that thing is responsible for preventing children from getting in. I know this because we had a trampoline when I was a kid, and at one house we also had a pool – and there were steps we had to take to keep other kids from sneaking onto our property and hurting themselves. Now, obviously, if you don’t take mental and physical abilities into account, the person trespassing is at fault because they shouldn’t be on someone else’s property - but if a 2-year old wanders into an unfenced pool and drowns, we hold the pool owner responsible, because he is the adult and he – not the child – is the one with the ability to prevent the child’s death. Do you agree with that line of reasoning? I haven’t really thought much about this, it just occurred to me when you brougth up welcome/unwelcome guests.
Sorry, I just realized that my whole first paragraph probably seemed really incongruous! Basically my point was that I’m not sitting here fresh from church, with babies crawling around my ankles and a pie cooling on the windowsill or whatever. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that!) I’m agnostic; my primary time-suck is my career, which I love; about as many of my friends and co-workers are gay as are straight. I shop local and reduce/reuse/recycle (in that order of preference). My favorite non-work activities are reading, and drinking beer – both of which activities I have downright geeky appreciation for. etc. From the little browsing I’ve done in these busy past few months, I feel like we’d probably get along well. ;)
Of course I’m horribly busy right now so I didn’t really convey that too well the first time around. All work and no play….
Alexandra- Very cool. I wish I could weld and use power tools, but I fit nicely into the label of girly girl (as much as I hate labels). And thank you for telling your abortion story, I’m glad your doctor treated you well. I wish all women- those who regret and those who don’t- felt that they could speak up about it.
You give me in the impression that you actually want to understand my beliefs, which is why I respond to you and not to others. Most other people just give me the impression that they’re here to try to smear me, so I do appreciate those who are not like that. :)
Right now, I can’t think of any situations where the right to bodily autonomy can be suspended (except for putting criminals in jail- you could argue that that suspends their right to bodily autonomy). When a person violates another person’s rights, they’re not exercising their own right to bodily autonomy. For example, when a rapist rapes, s/he’s not exercising hir right to bodily autonomy, the rapist is violating another person’s bodily autonomy.
The thing with abortion is that it’s not as simple as asking someone to leave your home. The only way to get a fetus or embryo out (without going through the pregnancy) is to have an abortion. If someone accidentally ended up in my home I’d just ask them to leave. I wish you could just say to a fetus, “hey, I don’t want you here. Can you leave?” but sadly, life doesn’t work that way :-p
Re: the pool/trampoline example..
I don’t really thing it’s the pool owner’s fault that the child drowns as much as it’s the child’s caretaker’s ‘fault’ (that is, if you absolutely need to assign ‘fault’ to someone. Small children drown all the time. I don’t want to imply to anyone here who might have had a child drown that they’re a bad parent).. unless of course the home owner just watched the child drown, in which case it would be the home owner’s fault, no doubt. The child obviously can’t be blamed because s/he didn’t know better. I’m having a hard time relating this to abortion, though.
We need to keep in mind that having someone intrude in your home (although scary) and having someone intrude on your body are two veeerrryyy different situations. A home robbery is a horrible situation, but as bad at it is, you can’t compare it to a violation on someone’s body, like a rape for example.
Oh, and since you told me a bit about yourself I’ll go ahead and tell you more about myself, Alexandra.
I’m a college student, and I plan on becoming a doctor. Like I said earlier, I fit quite nicely into the girly girl label. I play the violin for fun and for money. I’m vegan, and I also do try to “reduce, reuse, and recycle” like you said. I am religious, but I don’t belong to an organized religion. The thing with organized religion is that I always felt it was intended to be restricting- to me, God is the most liberating thing in the world. I love animals, and I am definitely a bird person. To me, all birds are angels (I mean, duh, why do you think they have wings?). My passion is reproductive justice, or justice in general, really. I like to spend my free time exercising, reading, and right now, enjoying the beautiful fall weather.
Nice! I played the cello for fun and money throughout high school and college. I should’ve played the violin, though – the cello is too big for my current apartment. Woe. I am most definitely not vegan but I do try to ensure that what little meat I buy/eat comes from ethical sources.
I want to understand your beliefs, but I also am pretty sure I already do, because I held them myself for many years. Basically I held them until I got to irreconcilable points of disagreement with them, which is kind of where these questions I’m asking you are coming from. I’m curious where you go with your answers, because I had trouble going anywhere with mine.
The attractive-nuisance thing was just kind of a string of thought I was trying to follow – whether one personally believes that a parent/guardian is responsible for a child drowning in a neighbor’s pool, the law tends to take the approach that the neighbor bears some responsibility to keep the child from accessing it. That is to say, we legally recognize that a child does not bear responsibility for his actions in at least some situations. If a toddler got into his neighbor’s pool, the neighbor could not sue the toddler (or his parents) for trespassing. By contrast, if the child were injured, we might legally hold the neighbor responsible for not doing enough to prevent the toddler from trespassing. If a child cannot be held legally responsible for crimes against property, can he be held responsible for crimes against bodily autonomy? And should a person’s rights be suspended or terminated as a result of actions they themselves are not legally responsible for?
Alexandra…you are pro-choice aren’t you? You talked before about your abortion and how you aren’t sorry. PCG, you are talking to a fellow pro-abortion type. Two peas in a pod. Have fun.
Well, when a person has an abortion, she isn’t holding the fetus or embryo legally responsible for anything, really. It’s just that the only way that you can get the fetus out, without carrying to term, is by aborting. It isn’t about holding the fetus responsible for anything- that wouldn’t make sense considering the fact that fetuses and embryos aren’t sentient beings. It’s about protecting the woman’s bodily autonomy.
There have been crazy cases of people who have been accused of rape saying that they have a sleep disorder where they try to have sex with people while they’re asleep (I think it’s called somnophilia?). I don’t buy it at all, but some people may argue that, if they do have the sleep disorder, they can’t be held legally accountable for rape. Even if they can’t, does that mean that a person who is being attacked by one of these alleged somnophiliacs shouldn’t be able to defend herself? I think we’d agree that she should be able to defend herself.
Point is, when a person’s bodily autonomy is being violated, the priority should be ending that violation first, and then holding the perpetrator responsible if this applies.
How heartwarming. Victim feminists consoling each other. Cue the unicorns and violins. That’s *so* abortion. Yawn.
Not enough company at your site PCG? Get pretty lonely over there with only the lonely latch key kid and the insane artist? Maybe Alexandra could get to know you there to give you a little company?
Here you go Alexandra: http://herauthority.blogspot.com/
It’s like so abortion at PCG’s house.
Before you go, could either of you give me an example of a prolife activist who later became an outspoken proabort? I’ve asked PCG before, but I guess she missed it.
Don’t want to kill animals but do advocate for the killing of innocent unborn children? That level of hypocricy is, like, so abortion!
The healthiest and greenest way to end a pregnancy is, y’know, by giving birth.
She won’t answer for this one either, Praxedes http://twitter.com/ProChoiceGal/statuses/25624023068
I want to understand your beliefs, but I also am pretty sure I already do, because I held them myself for many years.
That statement by Alexandra peaked my curiousity. Hmmm
Alexandra-
I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to make you a target for attack. We can continue our convo here if you want, or if you’d rather do it in private feel free to drop me an email at ReemaGirlK@gmail.com
If Alexandra has changed her mind on the subject of abortion, which I really hope she has, she would make the perfect ambassador to open the minds of other intellegent women who conisder themselves pro-choice because they haven’t yet given serious thought to the issue.
Unfortunately, the sarcastic, snarky comments by other pro-lifers peppering their dialoge make pro-lifers look like a bunch of catty b1+(he$.
PCG
You want to perform abortions as an abortionist. Call yourself a doctor if you would like though.
Len, who is being snarky and catty when you call other pro-lifers “bitches”? Shame on you! Alexandra just bragged about her abortion and how she isn’t sorry. How exactly is she to be an ambassador?
Just because a person doesn’t regret their abortion doesn’t mean that they haven’t come to the realization that what they did was taking a human life, and that it was wrong. Changing one’s mind about abortion is a process. One that I went through not that long ago. For some people, especially ones who are not religious, it is a matter of learning and accepting when life begins.
I have never had an abortion. But I wasn’t always pro-life and I knew plenty of girls and women who had abortions and I never stepped up to stop them. I certainly would now, but I don’t necessarily feel guilty about my passivity. I thought at the time there was nothing wrong with their actions, or mine, and I don’t see any point in racking myself with guilt about it. If I felt as I do now, and didn’t do anything, then yeah, I should feel bad about it.
Alexandra said:
I want to understand your beliefs, but I also am pretty sure I already do, because I held them myself for many years. Basically I held them until I got to irreconcilable points of disagreement with them, which is kind of where these questions I’m asking you are coming from. I’m curious where you go with your answers, because I had trouble going anywhere with mine.
To me it sounds as if she is either pro-life or in the process of becoming pro-life. And she is making an effort to get ProChoiceGirl to reflect on her pro-choice beliefs in the same way that she has.
Comments like:
Not enough company at your site PCG? Get pretty lonely over there with only the lonely latch key kid and the insane artist? Maybe Alexandra could get to know you there to give you a little company?
and
Alexandra…you are pro-choice aren’t you? You talked before about your abortion and how you aren’t sorry. PCG, you are talking to a fellow pro-abortion type. Two peas in a pod. Have fun.
and
How heartwarming. Victim feminists consoling each other. Cue the unicorns and violins. That’s *so* abortion. Yawn.
REALLY makes it look like ALEXANDRA is the only one here who is willing to try to understand PCG’s reasoning for being pro-choice and to make her see why those beliefs are incorrect or not logical.
That really says something.
But go ahead and shame me. Sure.
Len, did you call PCG on her first post here?:
“The reading comprehension skills of antis never cease to amaze me.”
But you say it “REALLY makes it look like ALEXANDRA is the only one here who is willing to try to understand PCG’s reasoning for being pro-choice and to make her see why those beliefs are incorrect or not logical.”
len, you are obviously not aware of the history that PCG has with some of us and how long some of us have been willing to listen, support and try to understand her. I am very tolerant — to a point. Most of us here know PCG’s reasoning for being a proabort inside and out (interesting how you use the term pro-choice though). There does come a time however when tolerating nasty behavior does more damage then good. I will not enable PCG but prefer to hold her accountable instead.
PCG has repeatedly told myself and other rape survivors that we support rape and are rape apologists solely because we are prolife. She has said nasty things to me but then deletes them and lies about it. Tolerating abusive behavior is not good for me, PCG or anyone reading this. PCG thrives on abuse, pitty parties and she now has you feeling sorry for her as well, even to the point that you are willing to call prolifers abusive names as well. THAT really says something. I agree with Sidney — Shame on you.
PCG’s statement, “Alexandra- I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to make you a target for attack” is a small example of PCG pulling others into her poor-me-routine and you fell for it hook, line and sinker.
Maybe you should spend some time trying to be nice to her at her place and see how long you will be treated nicely in return. Good luck. You have my best wishes.
Len must be new here. Some of us have an even longer history of PCG’s abuse, Gwen and I have noth been called ‘rapists’ by her more than once. Not rape apologists, mind you-rapists. Now that I’ve sought legal counsel she’s changing her tack to the faux ‘kinder and gentler’ PCG. If you want to buy that, have at it. Those of us who have been abused by her know better.
You’re right, I’m not as familiar with PCG as the rest of you, I guess. When I find someone’s tone or content offensive I stop reading their posts so there may have been threads in the past where I have tuned her out.
There does come a time however when tolerating nasty behavior does more damage then good.
So we respond to nastiness with nastiness? Got it.
(interesting how you use the term pro-choice though).
Exactly what are you trying to say here, Praxeds? Are you insinuating something or accusing me of not being “pro-life enough?” I get enough of that for not being religious and for not being anti-gay. This is a really unwelcoming place if you don’t fit the perfect pro-life mold. I use “pro-choice” because it is the term that is most recognizable by society for those who are pro-abortion rights. And maybe somewhat out of habit since I used to identify that way. Sorry, I’ll remember to only used approved vocabulary from now on in order not to arouse suspicion.
Feel free to post proof of that, Jill. I’ve called your type rape apologists/pro-rapists, sure. I could have said that you are no better than a rapist, because I consider rape apologists responsible for rape, too. I could have said that you are a potential rapist, because that’s what all rape apologists/pro-rapists are. Rapist? Certainly not. I would have given you the benefit of the doubt if everything else you have said about me hasn’t been fabricated.
“Now that I’ve sought legal counsel she’s changing her tack to the faux ‘kinder and gentler’ PCG”
You seem to think my whole life revolves around you. Sadly for you, it isn’t. I’m over high school gossiping.
I’d be glad to post proof if you hadn’t conveniently deleted it, along with your ‘rapists’ list on Twitter. And since you’re still *in* high school, you’re no one to talk. Everyone here has already experienced your form of ‘compassion,’ PCG. Quit lying, or at least have the class to apologize to the rape victims you abused here.
My list was a “pro-rapists” or a “rape apologists” list which I deleted because all of the rape apologists blocked me and I couldn’t add them to my list. Simple :) and no, I’m not in high school. Again, all fabricated information. Lovely.
“When I find someone’s tone or content offensive I stop reading their posts so there may have been threads in the past where I have tuned her out.”
Not true Len. You’ve pointed out that you find my tone offensive but continue to respond to what I write later.
“So we respond to nastiness with nastiness? Got it.”
Please point out a nastier comment here than this: “bunch of catty b1+(he$.”
Have a fun and safe weekend. You too PCG.
While you’re at it, PCG, please feel free to post proof for this lovely accusation too, you know, the proof we asked for weeks ago?
http://www.twitpic.com/2vsrsl
Thanks. I’m sure my lawyer will find that admission extremely valuable. You are a real piece of work. I hope you get the help you so desperately and obviously need.
Nice random change of subject. You know how I responded to your demands for “proof”. You read every single one of my tweets. In case you forgot, I’m not going to give in to all of your demands. You are not entitled to this.
Alexandra- there’s a good chance I won’t come back to this thread, so if you’d like to continue chatting, go ahead and email me :)
Len,
Though I understand where you’re coming from, I also understand where the others are coming from. I’ve been called a rape apologist, pro-rape, and a potential rapist.
I don’t know if you caught the “victim-card” she threw out earlier, but the rest of us did. ‘Most other people just give me the impression that they’re here to try to smear me, so I do appreciate those who are not like that.’ The fact is, we are not here to smear her, that’s her way of being the victim and turning the attention toward her (which we happily complied with). Take a quick look at these two posts, twitter screenshots included. She can dish, but she runs when you give it back.
http://justsnapd8.wordpress.com/2010/04/24/pro-choice-the-victim-again/
http://justsnapd8.wordpress.com/2010/07/11/times-up/
Yes, please do run away-typical. Don’t answer because you can’t. LOL.
As you can no doubt see by now, Len, PCG is only here to incite and libel others, she offers nothing to the debate and is only here to play the victim and try to gain sympathy for herself. Doctrinaire feminazi. Ask some of the other rape victims here how much ‘compassion’ she offered them-her remarks were slanderous and appalling.
Speaking of the debate, I would genuinely like to know where Alexandra was going with her line of questions, and how PCG was going to answer them. There’s always a glimmer of hope that one mind can be changed.. isn’t that what we’re here for?
Justsnapd8 wrote:
Speaking of the debate, I would genuinely like to know where Alexandra was going with her line of questions, and how PCG was going to answer them. There’s always a glimmer of hope that one mind can be changed.. isn’t that what we’re here for?
I hate to interject, here (since there’s not much I could say that hasn’t been said, at least as well, by others), but I’d add only this: there’s the less-than-small matter of THE ALTERNATIVE to which one’s mind will be changed. There isn’t much point in celebrating the “hope of change” (shades of Obama! *shudder*), if the alternative is no better… or if the alternative is only superficially better (but which would undercut future progress toward an actual “good” alternative). And I hope Alexandra will forgive me for sounding personal, but: since she described her lack of regret/repentance for her own abortion, and since she spoke in such glowing terms about the “compassion” of her child’s killer (with no subsequent qualifiers about having discovered the truth of the matter), I’m extremely wary of any “change of PCG’s mind” toward Alexandra’s position. If anything, it might serve to innoculate PCG’s mind even further against the truth, since she’ll already have made her effort to “change to something [allegedly] better”. (How many of us want to change our fundamental worldview [to which we’re emotionally attached] repeatedly? In such a case, I could hardly blame PCG for saying, to anyone who challenged her new-found views, “Hey, I already changed my view; what more do you want?”)
They’re free to chat away as they wish, of course (and they’re free to chat on PCG’s blog, if they find comments here to be irksome)… but perhaps this might help you to understand our lack of enthusiasm?
Paladin – I suppose we could just do as ‘they’ do.. block out the other side (literally). We could just talk to like-minded people, but it wouldn’t give us much insight as to what they are thinking. I prefer an open line of communication, I won’t apologize for that. As for PCG, she may be too far gone to reach, but I can always hope.
Vita- I did. I not only grew up in a pro-life house, I was an active pro-life activist. I even participated when the Genocide Awareness Project was brought to my campus- and there was a huge pro-choice counter protest going on. I used to belong to feminists for life. When I became pregnant at 18, I went to a crisis pregnancy center (which was one of the worst experiences I ever had) instead of a doctor or health center. (I miscarried in case anyone is wondering, at about 5-6 weeks). I’m now pro-choice. As are all of my younger sisters, all of whom were equally adamantly pro-life in high school and early college. I became pro-choice when I was 25 or so, right around the same time as my next youngest sister, who would have been 22 at the time. Our next younger sister was pro-choice by the time she graduated high school and the sister after that just became pro-choice and she is 15. My youngest sister has no concept of what abortion is and has no opinion on it, as she has a developmental disability. So, now there are four people that I can actively point to who have become pro-choice later in life. I know people who have gone both ways- ones who were pro-life and are now pro-choice, I know people who were pro-life who are now pro-choice. I think it happens more than you might think.
Julie,
Again, growing up with prolife parent(s) does not automatically make the children prolife. When you and one sister were still very young adults, you made a choice to become proaborts. Your other two sisters were still in high school and I’m guessing they were influenced by such ‘worldly’ older sisters.
You did not spend any significant amount of time defending the humanity of the unborn and ‘participating’ in one project during college doesn’t make you a prolife activist.
Give me names of people that have dedicated their lives to the prolife movement who later then became proaborts. Examples like: Mother Teresa, Jill Stanek, Lila Rose, Fr. Frank Pavone, etc.
Someone who has had an abortion, done an abortion, spoke publicly in favor of abortion or owned an abortion mill are serious converts to the prolife movement.
You and your sisters are not converts to the proabort movement because you were never freely and firmly committed to the prolife one in the first place.
Justsnapd8,
I too hope folks like PCG will someday see the error of their ways. Treating rape victims the way she has crosses the line from communication to abuse. I believe tolerating behaviors like this only enables her and others like her. If I thought for one moment that PCG was interested in open communication and diologue rather than starting fights, I wouldn’t be ‘snarky’, however it is clear what she wanted from the get-go.
I prefer to continue to pray for PCG and love her from a distance. Sometimes that’s all we can do.
And I won’t apologize for that.
Praxedes, after the morning we’ve had with her as you say..starting fights.. i couldn’t agree with you more. My apologies :)
Abortion will never be illegal again! All the pro-lifers who are out waisting time protesting abortion should instead be spending time with their own children! We have fought hard and shed blood to have freedom in this country. Freedom means a womans right to choose will always be protected.