Jivin J’s Life Links 11-17-10
by JivinJ, host of the blog, JivinJehoshaphat
- Ramesh Ponnuru responds to William Saletan’s advice for the pro-life movement:
… Saletan says that if pro-lifers “were to embrace contraception and give it moral sanction,” it would reduce abortion more than any anti-abortion law. I’m highly skeptical. Are people really having sex without contraception because pro-lifers have refrained from proselytizing in favor of contraception?Come on, Ramesh. Everybody knows that National Right to Life’s lack of a position paper on contraception must be the main cause of unmarried women using birth control sporadically and improperly.
- Pro-lifers testified yesterday against a measure to regulate pro-life pregnancy centers at a NYC Council committee meeting:Council Member Daniel Halloran raised questions about the city government telling a group that it must disclose what it doesn’t provide, suggesting that Planned Parenthood should change its name to indicate that it also plans for nonparenthood.
“I am very concerned that if the government can step in here it can step in other places and do exactly the same thing,” he said.
“It’s very ironic that they have a discrimination policy that allows them to discriminate against pro-life groups,” [Ruth Lobo, the president of Carleton Lifeline] said. “CUSA claims to be representative of all students. As a pro-life student I am not represented by an organization I am forced to pay dues to in my tuition. Either they should create a policy in which students can opt out of fees or get rid of the discrimination policy,” Ms. Lobo said.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
They can’t simultaneously argue that 1.) those who don’t promote contraceptives are out of touch, because such a high percentage of couples use contraceptives, and 2.) the abortion rate is so high because some religion or the pro-life movement is preventing people from using contraceptives.
If you’re going to be against using contraceptives, and you become pregnant, are you really that likely to have an abortion? Against artificial birth control, but in favor of abortion? Not likely.
“If you’re going to be against using contraceptives, and you become pregnant, are you really that likely to have an abortion? Against artificial birth control, but in favor of abortion? Not likely.”
Exactly. This is what I was trying to say on a different thread, bmmg39. It is such an odd thing that would have to be the case in order for these theories to be true…
The HIV researchers are noticing the same thing at the population level …….. over-reliance on poorly effective means of prevention causes a change in behavior that exacerbates the problem.
In actual use, contraceptives are not nearly as effective as touted in the studies. Reliance upon them changes behavior such that the overall demand for abortion is never decreased, and often shown to increase.
The user sees the pregnancy more as a failure since there was an effort to prevent it, and since the reproductive act and result had become mentally separated.
According to William Satan’s, I mean, Saletan’s advice it would be more moral for me to kill my son today rather than next year when he is older and more developed. Likewise, anyone wishing to kill ME should do so today rather than wait till I’m 60 since earlier murder = better, nicer, more moral murder.
FWIW, most folks don’t even know that some pro life folks oppose artificial contraception. Plenty don’t even know that Catholics oppose it. There is a wealth of ignorance. So, any position paper would essentially be pointless.
“Plenty don’t even know that Catholics oppose it. ”
That’s probably because most Catholics don’t oppose it.
Do most Muslims oppose abortion or birth control?
ninek – I would imagine for Muslims, opposition is much like the cultural Catholics – the orthodox will adhere to the faith, and completely oppose both abortion and contraception. Of course, you’ll have other “Muslims” like the CINO “joan” who’ll claim their own positions. Biblically, the CINOs will run into a sovereign Lord who will tell them their true final position – Mt 7:21-23.
It is interesting to note that culturally, more orthodox versions of Islam are coming to power in non-traditionally Muslim nations due to higher birthrates. England is toast, as is most of the rest of Europe, due entirely to lower population growth of native people groups, and high population growth (in some cases 8:1!) among Muslims.
I would not be at all surprised to find a money trail between the Saudi’s and Planned Parenthood International.
bmmg39 and Bobby, I think you’ve missed the point, perhaps.
The education in and availability of contraception is influenced by those who oppose it. This means that it’s use is limited – to an extent – therefore causing more unwanted pregnancies. Those who fell pregnant and would have happily used contraception if there had been better education and availability, may then happily have an abortion.
Chris,
What do you mean by England is toast? I’m just confused by your comment- you can be native to England, as in, ethnically English, and still be a Muslim. Islam is a religion, like Christianity- any ethnic group can be Muslim.
As for the discussion going on the rest of the thread, I’m going to try and avoid (yet another) fruitless debate on birth control. I’m tired of talking about it.
cranium begs the question FTW.
“The education in and availability of contraception is influenced by those who oppose it.”
Really? Just about every pharmacy, convenience store, and supermarket sell condoms at the very least, and usually have other types of contraceptives. How is their availability being limited, exactly?
Vannah – how many are converting to Islam as opposed to being born into Islam culture in England? There are literally areas in England where the law of the land is superseded by Sharia law.
Cultures can die off if a more lively culture encroaches. Arguments over birth control are rather moot, if they only occur within the context of a culture and not the entire world.
England is toast, as is most of the rest of Europe, due entirely to lower population growth of native people groups, and high population growth (in some cases 8:1!) among Muslims.
That actually rings true, because of 2 reasons.
1. Muslims in the UK (both british born and emigrants) have extreemely large families, only marry within their own community and very often – marry someone from their home country, so that they could come over as well. The Muslim community expands rapidly. Whereas all other, european communities are pretty much on a negative demographic through contraception, abortion, late marriages, etc. Islam won’t need a war to overtake Europe.
2. UK government is very very favourable to the Muslims. They have more rights and protection than Christians, where the Christian faith is constantly battered in the media and laws, noone dares to say a single word against the muslims, in fear of being called a racist or supporting “hate speech” against other faith. It’s really sad how double their standards have become, how little respect they have for their own heritage and faith and how much – for something completely foreign.
bmmg39, just beacuse something is available doesn’t mean that everyone knows that it is available, particularly if they are not educated in regards to it or are indoctrinated that it is a bad thing.
You are quite right Vita, although a ‘fightback’ of some sort seems to be gaining ground in parts of europe.
I think its more a fear of death than of being seen as politically incorrect.
The real problems with use of the great gift of sexuality is that it is being used for recreation instead of babies and bonding.
When the great gift of sexuality is treated as casual, with no commitment, no love, no long-lasting togetherness – it’s just recreation. And people get surprised to find out that sexual intimacy can result in a pregnancy (surprise!)
And then people panic and figure a way to deal with that – and a lot of times women choose abortion because they don’t want their parents to find out they have been sexually active. Or they realize that they hooked up with a fellow that does not love them or care for them.
So when men and women use each other for sexual recreation there is a huge problem. And when people rely on the contraceptives to make sexual intimacy a sport instead of a loving and bonding embrace, meant for men and women in marriage we have a huge problem.
Over-reliance on contraception leads people to complacency. And everyone pays. Unfortunately, the irresponsibility of the parents can cause their child(ren) to be killed via abortion.
If people treated sexual intimacy as one of the most important and profound gifts, instead of something to use and trivialize, we would not be in this huge mess.
hippie: you mean its the Catholics who follow God’s law on welcoming life (and not deliberately blocking the transmission of the creation of it all the time) who oppose contraceptive methods. Those who understand the marital embrace is for procreation and unity of the spouses, not for recreation. The other ones use anything to block the creation of a new life because they have been taught that children are a burden, not a blessing.
Cranium , what you are saying is absurd. So you’re saying that there are people who don’t know where to buy condoms? I am surprised they could figure out the mechanics of sex then if they’re that dumb! I think everyone knows where to buy condoms. And condoms (confusing as they are) even come with directions in the box. So nice try–blaming pro-lifers for people being just plain immoral and lazy. People want to have sex and don’t want to be bothered with contraception. Or they get caught in the heat of the moment and are unable to control their actions and wind up pregnant as a result. Some women DO use abortion as contraception and probably always will.
Also, I doubt that someone would listen to pro-lifers and say “Wow. Contraception is bad. i won’t use it.” and yet continue to fornicate. Because pro-lifers speak out more forcefully on fornication than we do contraception.
Cranium: “bmmg39, just beacuse something is available doesn’t mean that everyone knows that it is available, particularly if they are not educated in regards to it or are indoctrinated that it is a bad thing.”
The major train-cars of what you and William Saletan are arguing are on a collision course with each other. Even if pro-lifers are not educating people about contraceptives, does that mean people are incapable of finding out themselves? Is the NLRC blindfolding people before they go into Rite Aid? Are church officials coming in and turning off the TV set when sixty-second birth control ads come on the tube? Is someone going to say, “No, I can’t use the Today’s Sponge; I’m Catholic!” and then turn around and have an abortion? Maybe a handful, but it’s not going to be a major trend.
Sydney M, with the rich diversity of life we call society, there are a few who would be that ignorant. And condoms aren’t the only contraception. What about someone who would really like something like the pill so they can be relatively assured for themselves only to find it difficult to obtain. And accurate sex education does have an impact.
Speaking of diversity, I note a few comments regarding sexuality which could be described as pious and righteous. Not everyone sees the world like that. Since time immemorial men and women have yearned for sex and succeeded despite taboos, laws, restrictions etc. What does that tell us.
It tells us that sin is as old as mankind Cranium. The Bible even tells us that. No sin is “new” to mankind. Since our creation we have erred from what God intended. And you know what history shows us? Erring from God’s way always always always breeds disease, sorrow and despair. How bout that?
Sidney M @ 9:48 PM,
So true. It’s right there in the Bible. I wonder what percentage of the U.S. population can name the Ten Commandments and what percentage have a desire to live by them. Sometimes it seems to be pretty darn low.
Your version of ‘sin’ is a biblical reference. There is no rational reason why everyone should live ‘as god intended’.
What about cultures and civilizations which don’t even know of the bible – or didn’t until it was thrust upon them? Some even led pretty much ‘pure’ and ‘sinless’ lives until missionaries admonished them for not having christian marriage ceremonies or for being naked.
From what I’ve observed it’s been the countries which are most beholden to god which have suffered the most monumental natural disasters, whats that all about?
You are not exactly the poster child for rational thinking Cranium, when you advocate killing a child if his umbilical cord is still attached. In my mind, when there are numerous STD’s and STI’s raging through our population (1 in 4 Americans has some form of STD/STI) I think thats a rational reason to keep sex within the confines of a faithful marital relationship. My husband and I have only ever had sex with each other. I don’t have to worry about catching a disease from my husband. I also have no emotional baggage from having sex with other men. Women process sex differently than men, so for women, sex IS more emotional. I don’t have that broken heart from years of sleeping with various men. I’ve only ever known the sexual embrace of my husband and after we’re through making love he is by my side to deal with all the pressures of life. He is there to help pay the bills and raise our son and share my life. That makes the sexual embrace all the sweeter because I know he loves me for the long haul, and for all of me, not just for my sexual parts. I am a person to him, not a piece of sexual meat for his gratification. God knew what He was doing when He made this sacred gift called sex and gave it to husbands and wives.
Well said, Sydney! I could have written word-for-word your post, except I would have to exchange the word “daughter” for “son”.
What I am not exactly the poster child of Sydney M, is imposing my way of life on others because of some limited and arcane reasoning telling me that mine is the only right way.
“I also have no emotional baggage from having sex with other men” – “I don’t have that broken heart from years of sleeping with various men” – where on earth did you get these gems? Only a guilt based credo would cause anyone to feel ‘baggage’ or ‘broken hearted’ about having sex with someone before their current partner. Just like it does with some who have had abortions. Guilt and fear, what a beautiful doctrine.
There are innumerable relationships as loving and caring and sharing as yours, without the need for some ceremonial approval or the requirement of chastity at the beginning.
“God knew what He was doing when He made this sacred gift called sex and gave it to husbands and wives.” – ignoring the fact that there is no god to give anyone anything – he gave it to a lot more people than husbands and wives now didn’t he.
I believe sex, like any other act of affection, can be just as emotional for men as it is for women.
bmmg39, I thank you, genuinely
joan
November 17th, 2010 at 4:07 pm
“Plenty don’t even know that Catholics oppose it. ”
That’s probably because most Catholics don’t oppose it.
Joan,
The Catholic Church does oppose contraception, but some Catholics aren’t even aware of Catholic Teaching.
The only method of family planning that the Catholic Church approves is Natural Family Planning. There are several NFP methods: Sympo-Thermal, Creighton and Billings. There might even be other methods, but those are the ones I know that exist.
My husband and I (both practicing and devout Catholics) use the Sympo-Thermal method.
Guilt and fear, what a beautiful doctrine.
Ha! Right, that’s EXACTLY what it is, cran. Wow, you never cease to amaze me with your theological prowess. And that would be guilt and fear as opposed to no guilt and no fear, which lead to such happy consequences as butchered unborn humans and STDs. Oh, the happiness (for some warped individuals, I suppose)! I’ll skip your doctrine, thanks.
ignoring the fact that there is no god to give anyone anything
Wow, you sure dodged a bullet there by “ignoring” that provable “fact,” now, din’tcha? WHEW!
From what I’ve observed it’s been the countries which are most beholden to god which have suffered the most monumental natural disasters, whats that all about?
Oh, LOOKIE!! It’s the anti-Pat Robertson, right here on the blog!
LOL!! Thanks for the laughs tonight, cranium, you’ve been a hoot. Nitey-nite.
Yep, ignore the points and avoid the facts, well done.
Yes, nitey-nite, you obviously need your sleep.
cranium, I don’t see how Sydney is imposing her way of life on anyone by simply arguing that she believes it is best. Why, we even tolerate your atheistic views, don’t we?
“You are not exactly the poster child for rational thinking Cranium, when you advocate killing a child if his umbilical cord is still attached”
G.K. Chesterton said, “When we stop believing in God, we don’t believe in nothing, we believe in anything.”
Doesn’t get more wicked than this.
Sydney M November 17th, 2010 at 3:27 pm
According to William Satan’s, I mean, Saletan’s advice it would be more moral for me to kill my son today rather than next year when he is older and more developed. Likewise, anyone wishing to kill ME should do so today rather than wait till I’m 60 since earlier murder = better, nicer, more moral murder.”
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IMO you got it about half right. But that is only because you stopped too soon in your analysis.
According to the doctrines of the ‘dead babies r us’ mob, the human embryo/fetus inches towared ‘humanity’ but IT does not reach the ‘boiling point’, irrespective of time of gestation until IT fully exits the formerly preganat females body. [Even then the infant is NOT fully human in the eyes of some 'humanists'.]
According to these humanist, at some arbitrary point the post natal infant may be ‘deemed’ human when she/he can demonstrate some sort of competence measured by some vague subjective scale.
Once the infant/child has been deemed ‘human’, then he/she is NOT permanently human. This status must be re-established, re-earned each day. Disease, injury, chemical imbalance, old age, beyond productive years/not self sustaining, etc. could render them once again less than ‘human’.
This is why death and destruction follow in the wake of ‘humanist’ when they come into power. Relatively recent history is replete with abundant examples.
cranium November 17th, 2010 at 10:18 pm
“From what I’ve observed it’s been the countries which are most beholden to god which have suffered the most monumental natural disasters, whats that all about?”
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cranium vaccuum,
Your difficulty in observation/comprehension lies with your selective and myopic view of history/reality.
Please support your assertion that “the countries which are most beholden to god which have suffered the most monumental natural disasters”…
Give us some objective, verifiable facts and figures.
yor bro ken
Conservative Movement Statement on the Permissibility of Abortion
Committee of Jewish Law and Standards, Adopted on November 21, 1983
Jewish tradition is sensitive to the sanctity of life, and does not permit abortion on demand. However, it sanctions abortion under some circumstances because it does not regard the fetus as an autonomous person…
United Synagogue Resolution on Abortion
Passed at the 1991 Biennial Convention
As the preceding information and the following resolution indicate clearly, Judaism does not provide a blanket pro-abortion stance. The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism nevertheless supports legislation maintaining the legality and accessibility of abortion so that in those cases where our religious authorities determine that an abortion is warranted halakhically, obtaining that abortion will not be hindered by our civil law.,,,
WHEREAS, Judaism does not believe that personhood and human rights begin with conception (the premise that personhood begins with conception is founded on a religious position which is not identical with Jewish tradition); and
WHEREAS, under special circumstances, Judaism chooses and requires abortion as an act which affirms and protects the life, well being and health of the mother
http://www.uscj.org/The_Abortion_Controv5481.html
This is why the majority of American Jews are pro-choice. The conservative position is a little less liberal than reformed which, based on rabbinical teachings, states that the fetus is not a person until it leaves the birth canal. So unless you succeed in changing the beliefs of one of the oldest religious groups in the world, there will never be a religious consensus on abortion.
Are Jews part of the “dead babiesr us” crowd?
Mother In Texas
November 18th, 2010 at 12:41 am
I think we’ve pretty thoroughly established by know that what “joan” knows about Catholicism could fit inside a thimble.
Dear DD,
Most American Jews are secular anyway, so it is not as if they are pro-choice because they are listening to their religious authorities. However, I think you really misrepresented the postition of Jewish law on abortion.
Jews generally do not consider the child a full-fledged person until it leaves the womb, but that does mean it is allowed to be treated like trash or in a sub-human manner. Fetuses are important and respected. One source states “The easiest way to conceptualize a fetus in halacha is to imagine it as a full-fledged human being — but not quite. In most circumstances, the fetus is treated like any other “person.”” Generally, abortion is not allowed unless the life of the mother is threatend. I have read some sources that state that abortion is permitted if the mother is in extreme emotional dispair, but it is not really clear what this means. Many sources state that depression and other mental illnesses does not count, since they can be treated without killing the child. This means that the vast majority of abortions that take place in America are forbidden under Jewish law.
http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_birthcontrolabortion.htm
http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48954946.html
Hey, cranium, I learned how to ignore points and avoid facts from watching you. You’re so good at it.
Yes, I did need my sleep! Doing what I do every day is hard work. Take care now.
Give us some objective, verifiable facts and figures.
LOL, right. This is cranium we’re talking about here…
Keli, a thimble? You’re so generous. I think it’s neither female nor Catholic. Because it believes that God is unknowable, which is a Muslim trait, I conclude the commenter is Muslim. There is also the recurring theme of deception among followers of Islam toward infidels, but I’ve never gotten to know a Muslim well enough to test the deception theory.
But what would motivate a Muslim to troll a pro-life blog and argue like an angry atheist robot? Even the prophet, pbuh, once said: “Women, do not kill your children for fear of poverty.”
DD/Artemis, I noticed that you did not discuss the Orthodox interpretation of Jewish tradition, only that of Conservative and Reform Jews — what’s up with that? Could it be because many Orthodox Jews are pro-life? I have seen many of them personally the March for Life in Washington, indeed they were speakers there.
There was a person claiming to be Jewish on a different thread recently who said the majority of Jews are pro-choice because pro-lifers compare abortion to the Holocaust and that offends Jews.
Seems to me that some “Jews” are as confused as some “Catholics” when it comes to abortion.
Hi Cranium. I am not trying to impose “my” way on people but I will gladly speak out and tell others about God’s way. I didn’t create sex. Its not my invention, so its not my rules I am imparting here.
But its not God’s fault people feel guilt. I’ve seen it with so many of my girlfriends. The years of sleeping with every boyfriend they had. The heartbreak when those boys got what they wanted (sex) and then took off. It devastated my friends. Some of them got STD’s. That was fun. Ick. A couple of them have gotten married in the past 2 years. Several of them are already having marital problems. Related to the years of sexual promiscuity? I don’t know, but could be. I watched my friends from age 13 up go from boy to boy to boy and it certainly didn’t bring them any lasting happiness. In fact it brought a lot of grief.
ninek
November 18th, 2010 at 10:11 am
I don’t think so. I about half of my time growing up was in Indonesia, which is the largest Islamic country in the world and we weren’t deceived right left and center (any more than you’d expect for people trying to trick tourists out of their money, anyway, which happens everywhere). And, as you mentioned, abortion apologetics is an odd activity for a Muslim to engage in.
Nope, I think joan just doesn’t know anything about what she claims to believe. I would venture to say that I, as a Protestant and a Martin Luther fan, know more about Catholicism than she does.
“DD/Artemis, I noticed that you did not discuss the Orthodox interpretation of Jewish tradition, only that of Conservative and Reform Jews — what’s up with that?”
The majority of American Jews are either Conservative or Reformed. I know that Orthodox Jews are “pro-life,” but they are only a small percentage of American Jews. The fact remains that the majority of American Jews are pro-choice (and liberal and vote Democratic). Many Jews are active in the pro-choice movement and many serve on Planned Parenthood Boards.
And Praxedes – You demean Jews by saying that they are “confused.” Was it you who penned what, I believe, bordered on an anti-Semitic poem as a response to my posting of a letter from an ADL person regarding the offensiveness of comparing the holocaust to abortion?
But I do find it interesting that you folks actually do believe that your “pro-life” religious beliefs are the “true” beliefs which is a belief that denigrates religions that are “pro-choice.” Beyond denigration what you seem to be saying is that, in your view, they are heretical.
“I watched my friends from age 13 up go from boy to boy to boy and it certainly didn’t bring them any lasting happiness. In fact it brought a lot of grief”
While much of what you say is true, it’s also true that women who are virgins when they marry, also have marital stress.
Sydney,
It goes back to an issue of respect. A non-marital sexual relationship can be mutually fulfilling if both partners communicate well and respect the other person’s boundaries and general dignity. Again, sex can be meaningful to people for so many reasons. It would be awful for the entire spectrum of possible sexual experience to be colored by the image of depraved frat boys posting pictures of their “conquests” on the internet. Sex isn’t the problem–that kind of behavior is nasty and transcends sexual relationships. Those same individuals are probably more likely to disrespect their parents, cheat in school, generally act like jerks.
Everybody,
The conversation surrounding demographics, population control and religion is an insulting one. Women’s bodies are not weapons with which the “West” will fight “Islam,” sorry. This kind of logical can get so twisted, as demonstrated by these wingnuts who hold the belief that a woman’s proper role in society is repopulating Christian America:
http://nolongerquivering.com/2010/10/31/a-womans-place/
And Praxedes – You demean Jews by saying that they are “confused.” Was it you who penned what, I believe, bordered on an anti-Semitic poem
I have not demeaned Jews in any way. Period. I said, “Seems to me “Jews” are as confused as some “Catholics” when it comes to abortion.” Big difference so please stop playing the victim card.
Bettysue (I think) claimed to speak for Jews arguing that the majority of Jews are pro-choice because pro-lifers compare abortion to the Holocaust. Do you believe this as well? If you don’t, according to your own logic, this would make you borderline anti-Semitic.
Abortion is yet another Holocaust and if you support abortion you are inhumane.
There is no rational reason why everyone should live ‘as god intended’.
Cranium,
God is LOVE. He wants us to love Him as much as He loves us. How can you make such a definitive statement when you admit that you don’t know God?
To deal with the facts Kel.
Firstly, any competent mental health practitioner would know that the use of fear and the instilling of guilt as a tool for behavioral control simply cause greater issues with little positive outcome, especially as people mature. It’s a negative psychological tool.
Secondly, sex has obviously been given to a whole lot more people than ‘husbands and wives’. So I hardly see how it is a ‘sacred gift’. Even atheists get it!
G. K. Chesterton was simply wrong Praxedes.
Are you sure you want some real info yor bro ken? You didn’t seem all that interested when I responded to your assertion that automobiles aren’t produced in any of the former satelites of the former soviet union, china, n. vietnam, n. korea, or cuba.
I don’t see too many natural disasters with high death tolls occuring in Sweden, or the Netherlands, or Australia, or Iceland, or Britain. There was one in Italy, oh that’s right, it was a remote part with strong catholic beliefs. And earthquakes and floods in devoutly catholic parts of south america. The boxing day tsunamis in indonesia a few years back, but only some of them were catholic, many were muslim. Prove me wrong.
“G. K. Chesterton was simply wrong Praxedes.”
Yeah, G.K. was wrong. And the sky is green and the grass is blue. And joan is Catholic and you are compassionate.
“When we stop believing in God, we don’t believe in nothing, we believe in anything.” – this is a facile statement. It is simply a self-apologetic for the faithful.
I don’t believe in god.
That doesn’t mean I don’t believe in anything – I believe in rights and responsibilities, freedoms and consequences, knowledge and reason.
Atheists are far from believing ‘anything’. We are sceptical and very hesitant about believing any sort of spiritual or extraordinary claims.
So G. K. was wrong, but the sky is blue, the grass is green, joan may be catholic and I am definitely compassionate. – just because a famous person is brilliant and has high achievement doesn’t mean they are right about everything.
Atheists are far from believing ‘anything’. We are sceptical and very hesitant about believing any sort of spiritual or extraordinary claims.
Very hesitant and sceptical is different than totally unbelieving. . . . .
Praxedes’ prayers are progressing as planned.
The quote said that those who don’t believe in god, would believe in anything. Well it’s nonsensical from the start – if we don’t believe in god then we believe in less than ‘anything’ for a start.
Sceptical and hesitant until something is proven – and that hasn’t happened yet now has it
Praxedes, still dreaming more when awake than when asleep
DD November 18th, 2010 at 9:13 am
“Are Jews part of the “dead babiesr us” crowd?”
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DD,
If your stats are correct, then at least some Jews are part of the ‘dead babies r us’ crowd and have been for quite a while.
But as it is written, “There is nothing new under the sun.”
Some relevant commentary from the Torah and the Talmud:
Ezek 16:1-5 AGAIN THE word of the Lord came to me, saying,
2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know, understand, and realize her [idolatrous] abominations [that they] are disgusting, detestable, and shamefully vile.
3 And say, Thus says the Lord God to Jerusalem [representing Israel]: Your [spiritual] origin and your birth are thoroughly Canaanitish; your [spiritual] father was an Amorite and your [spiritual] mother a Hittite. [Ezek 16:45; John 8:44.]
4 And as for your birth, on the day you were born your navel cord was not cut, nor were you washed with water to cleanse you, nor rubbed with salt or swaddled with bands at all.
5 No eye pitied you to do any of these things for you, to have compassion on you; but you were cast out in the open field, for your person was abhorrent and loathsome on the day that you were born.
6 And when I passed by you and saw you rolling about in your blood, I said to you in your blood, Live! Yes, I said to you still in your natal blood, Live!
AMP
Ezek 16:20-21 20 Moreover, you have taken your sons and your daughters whom you have borne to Me, and you have sacrificed them [to your idols] to be destroyed. Were your harlotries too little,
21 That you have slain My children and delivered them up, in setting them apart and causing them to pass through the fire for [your idols]? AMP
Please note who took compassion on the exposed, abandoned and rejected infant.
Some Jews were and are at odds with the ONE who gives them life and breath. These would be the ‘dead babies r us’ folks.
I just have to respond to the comment by DD.
DD writes “women who are virgins when they marry also have marital stress” What in the heck?? If you are saying virgins who marry suffer more stress than women who have been sleeping around or those who even “selectively” had multiple sexual partners. What the heck??? The number 1 risk factor for contracting a STD is having “multiple sexual partners” (although no one can guarantee that you will not contract STDs after one sexual encounter) and the number 1 risk factor for living in poverty is being an unwed, single parent especially as a teen.
Yes, men and women who marry as virgins are sure having lots of marital stress because they DON’T have to worry about bringing a STD into their marriage infecting their spouse and they DON’T have to worry about “baby daddy” or “baby mama” drama, having to pay child support to previous sexual partners, having child custody issues, their wages being garnished to pay child support, angry jilted past sexual partners who hate their guts, being ordered to court to have DNA testing to determine paternity of a child (sometimes years later), being sued to pay back child support,a new boyfriend or new girlfriend not wanting you around to see your child, going to court because you are being denied child visitation rights when you want to be an actively involved parent, etc. I could write a book on this topic. I have worked with teen parents and seen every situation you could think of and some you could not imagine. Even heartbroken teen or young adult dads who were falsely accused of not paying child support being arrested and falsely accused of being abusive when they just want to continue a relationship with their child. The stories I could tell you are unbelievable. The boyfriends that have infected a virgin with incurable, viral Herpes (“the gift that keeps on giving”), denies it because he is asymptomatic and then tells her “you must be a whore”. Yes, virgins are really missing out and come into their marriages with a whole lot of “Marital Stress” DD. NOT!!