Planned Parenthood: Let them eat cookies
About her decision to pursue a post-marital legal career, FLOTUS-hopeful Hillary Clinton infamously snipped in 1992, “I suppose I could have stayed home and baked cookies and had teas….”
Apparently feminism has come full circle. Now we have the United States’ largest abortion chain going so far as to use cookies for promotional tools. Who’d have thunk it.
Click all photos to enlarge.
I wonder if the flavor of this first one is “Pepto chalk”….
I also wonder if PP plans to start lacing its “birth control cookies” with the same artificial steroids as are in the bc pill. They might not taste so good…
Am waiting for PP to make a cookie depicting its most popular product. I think I’ll be waiting awhile.
This next photo has nothing to do with cookies. It’s just cute. Entitled, “DC office window abortion wars,” it was posted by Thomas Peters of American Papist. Look closely…
Let me now go on the record saying that if I had to choose, I’d prefer to eat one of those hilarious birth control pill cookies than one of that crazy lady’s “fetus cookies.” *shudders*
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Ok – did our tax dollars fund that? The buss? The signs? the salaries/hotel/meals/transportation for those who went on the pink bus tour? Where is that bus now? And who designed, baked, packaged and delivered the cookies?
Ah – the sensible and prudent use of our taxpayer funds.
Why are those $$ not going to the poor who desperately need healthcare and BC and abortions? oh right, cookies are more important. sarcasm. ;)
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Joy,
Those cookies are darn expensive to buy in a store! The dollars just keep adding up…
The bus cookie should say “I RIDE (on the backs of tax-payers) with Planned Parenthood”.
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Abortions still only make up 3% of Planned Parenthood’s services, so I know you can’t be referring to abortions when you quip about their “most popular product”
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@Caitlin, depends on how you count. As insider Abby Johnson revealed, Planned Parenthood likes to “strategically skew[ their numbers] by unbundling family planning services so that each patient shows anywhere from five to 20 ‘visits’ per appointment (i.e., 12 packs of birth control equals 12 visits) and doing the opposite with abortion visits, bundling them together so that each appointment equals one visit.” Abortion is actually more like 12% of Planned Parenthood’s services. Abortions are 98% of the services provided to pregnant women. Abortion is probably the largest single income source for Planned Parenthood clinics. One person calculated that approximately 38% of the clinics’ income is from abortions.
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So Janet, you’re saying Planned Parenthood has thrown us taxpayers under the bus…? heh
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About her decision to pursue a post-marital legal career, FLOTUS-hopeful Hillary Clinton infamously snipped in 1992, “I suppose I could have stayed home and baked cookies and had teas….”
Apparently feminism has come full circle. Now we have the United States’ largest abortion chain going so far as to use cookies for promotional tools. Who’d have thunk it.
Until Hillary joins the Tea Party, your case is weak.
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wow those bus cookies are butt ugly. They are desperate aren’t they?
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Ok, help me out. What are we looking closely for in the picture with the dueling signs?
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Denise says:
April 12, 2011 at 10:41 pm
Ok, help me out. What are we looking closely for in the picture with the dueling signs?
Across from the Pro-Life sign there’s another window with a pink “I Stand With Planned Parenthood” sign. That’s what we’re looking closely at and that’s what they meant by “DC window abortion wars”
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Even IF only 1 % of Planned Parenthood’s business was from abortion – that 1 % is too much – especially with money from people who have no choice, the tax payer.
The crisis pregnancy centers have for years, been raising money with bake sales and garage sales – wonder when pp will hold their first garage sale…
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Caitlyn – what if they provided totally free health care of every kind to all takers – what if they were saving millions of men, women and children every year – what if they found the cure for cancer and solved world hunger – but once per week, they took a random toddler into the street in front of one of their clinics and chopped their head off – would that be OK with you? would you see them as “good folks” because of all the good things they did? or would you see them as the cold-blooded killers that they are, despite the rest of what they did?
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Excellent point, Bryan. You cut to the heart of the issue very well.
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Bingo, Bryan! Planned Parenthood supporters like to talk about “what Planned Parenthood actually does.” You know what they do? One out of every four abortions in the United States. One baby every 95 seconds. Would you give money to al-Qa’ida’s fund for widows and orphans? Why support the people who kill 332,278 unborn Americans per year?
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Those cookies?
Gross.
Bryan,
Love your comment!! Soooooo tired of “but look at the GOOD PP does!!”
They kill babies.
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Heck Bryan, I am stealing your comment and I will copy and paste it anytime I see someone make the 3% argument (if that’s okay with you).
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Whoever made the birth control pill cookies has some serious cookie-decorating talent. Too bad they’re using it for this.
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Let’s play Caitlin’s numbers game, which is the same numbers game Planned Parenthood used to claim that partial birth abortion was “rare”. They said that only about 1% of all abortions are partial birth abortions. So they rely on people to be bad at Math. With 1,000,000 abortions every year, 1% is 10,000 partial birth abortions every year. That is an abomination.
So we have the claim that abortion is only 3% of what Planned Parenthood does. We know that they perform 300,000 abortions every year. That means that they do TEN MILLION other things every year. And according to them, the vast majority of what they do is giving out birth control – that accounts for 83%. So that’s well over 8 million people that they threw condoms at and called it “healthcare”. Remove that from consideration and abortion accounts for about 17% of what Planned Parenthood does. And what do you think is more profitable for Planned Parenthood? Giving out FREE condoms, OR charging hundreds of dollars for abortions? Concentrate real hard and you might come to the answer.
Do any of these percentages somehow diminish the fact that they killed 300,000 unborn children? Or is the “3%” just a meaningless statistic?
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I am actually having a two-way discussion with Eric Zorn about his opposition to ultrasound legislation in IL at chicagotribune.org. If any post-abortive women who visit this site were denied a chance to view the ultrasound, you could help immensely with my point. Mr. Zorn apparently agrees that if an ultrasound is used, patients have the right to view it. He is now questioning my claim that clinics obfuscate the ultrasound screen. PP of Aurora told me over the phone that they do allow viewing of the ultrasound. Was anyone out there denied the right to view their ultrasound? Please comment on Zorn’s article at
http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2011/04/take-a-close-look-anti-abortion-proposal-in-springfield-encourages-women-to-view-fetal-ultrasounds-o.html
to raise support for ultrasound legislation in IL.
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Thank you, Bryan! That is how ridiculous it really is, when people keep talking about “what about all the good stuff they do”! Ted Bundy also did good stuff in his life…doesn’t mean he wasn’t a cold blooded killer!
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Oh come on, Bryan (and everyone else). That’s a ridiculous analogy, and you all know it. No one is chopping off toddlers’ heads here. They are terminating pregnancies that are unwanted. They’re doing a good service for women, families, and communities.
Additionally: prove to me that Planned Parenthood funded those cookies. I bet you can’t. They appear to be cookies made in support of Planned Parenthood by private supporters.
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Caitlyn, what is a pregnancy?
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When I saw the cookie, I couldn’t help but think of this T-shirt:
http://www.davidandgoliathtees.com/women/tees/come-to-the-dark-side.html
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@Caitlin, you’re right, Planned Parenthood isn’t decapitating toddlers. They’re dismembering unborn children. To the tune of 332,278 per year. There are some 7000 federally funded health clinics in the country that provide <i>real</i> health care to women (and men, and families). This fight isn’t about health care. It’s about abortion.
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Bethany,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy
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In your own words, Caitlyn. What is a pregnancy?
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Courtney,
When I had my abortion, the fetus was only 6 weeks along. It was a little cluster of cells, it was not a dismembered tiny baby. I did not dismember it in any way, I simply passed it along with the rest of my uterine lining.
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Here is my 6 week (embryonic age) cluster of cells who died by miscarriage:
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Bethany,
I’m sorry for your loss. This doesn’t change the fact that your child was wanted and mine was not. Therefor you grieve the loss of a potential child and I celebrate the fact that I didn’t have to endure a dangerous pregnancy and an unwanted child.
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Why are you sorry for my loss?
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Thank you for acknowledging that both yours and mine were children. Their wantedness by you or me has nothing to do with their personhood or inherent value.
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Additionally: prove to me that Planned Parenthood funded those cookies. I bet you can’t. They appear to be cookies made in support of Planned Parenthood by private supporters.
Caitlin,
Do you mean “paid for” the cookies? Did you happen to click on the link “birth control cookies”? The bakery (I won’t give them free publicity by naming them) lists PP among their many clients and sponsors. You can call the bakery and see if they’ll answer your questions.
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Because you attached a poem to a photo of your miscarried baby, so I assumed that you felt sad about it, and I felt sorry that you had lost a child that it seemed you had been looking forward to welcoming into the world.
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“dangerous pregnancy”…how was your pregnancy dangerous, Caitlyn?
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lf I attached a poem to a picture of my menstrual blood, and felt sad about it, would you apologize for my loss?
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Their “wantedness” DOES have an impact on their personhood. If I, as the carrier of the baby, choose not to carry the pregnancy to term, that does not make me a murderer.
As such, your body miscarrying your pregnancy does not make you guilty of manslaughter.
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The poem is actually a Scripture reference from Psalm 139.
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I have diabetes, and my doctors have warned me that any pregnancy I have will be very high risk.
And no, why would I be sad about your menstrual blood? I feel like you think you’re making really big “gotcha” points, but they’re really ridiculous.
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Caitlyn, why doesn’t that apply to newborn babies? What if I decide I do’nt want the baby after birth? Why doesn’t that affect personhood then?
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Caitlyn, if you manage your diabetes properly, there is no higher risk than any other pregnancy.
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“And no, why would I be sad about your menstrual blood? I feel like you think you’re making really big “gotcha” points, but they’re really ridiculous.”
Exactly. Why would you.
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I didn’t know that. The only time I’ve read the Bible was for a feminist literature class at my university. Beyond that, I don’t choose to have any interaction with it.
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Bethany,
Please don’t assume that you understand the state of my diabetes. If you’d like to sit in with meetings with my doctors, where we all discussed the dangers of a pregnancy in my body, then be my guest. Until then, you have no right to assume things regarding my body and my diabetes.
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Caitlyn, I have researched it to death. The truth is that if you controlled your diabetes properly, the risk is no higher, period.
There are dangers with diabetes whether you are pregnant or not.
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Bethany,
again…I would not feel sad about your menstrual blood, even if you put scripture over it.
However, I do feel sad for your miscarriage because the intent of posting a photo of your miscarried fetus along with scripture seemed to be to invoke sympathy and sadness.
Menstrual blood is a monthly bodily cleansing… a miscarriage (if you were hoping to carry the pregnancy to term) is the unintended death of a child you were hoping to bring into the world. That’s sad. Menstruating is not sad.
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(and I had diabetes with my last pregnancy and probably with this one too, just an fyi- I had a healthy 10 pound baby last time!)
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“However, I do feel sad for your miscarriage because the intent of posting a photo of your miscarried fetus along with scripture seemed to be to invoke sympathy and sadness.”
Why the difference, if an unborn child truly is nothing more than cells?
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Congratulations on having researcher it to death.
I assume then that you have read this:
Why is diabetes a concern in pregnancy?
Diabetes in pregnancy can have serious consequences for the mother and the growing fetus. The severity of problems often depends on the degree of the mother’s diabetic disease, especially if she has vascular (blood vessel) complications and poor blood glucose control. Diabetes that occurs in pregnancy is often listed according to White’s classification:
Gestational diabetes – when a mother who does not have diabetes develops a resistance to insulin because of the hormones of pregnancy.
Non-insulin dependent – Class A1
Insulin dependent – Class A2
Pregestational diabetes – women who already have insulin-dependent diabetes and become pregnant.
Class B – diabetes developed after age 20, have had the disease less than 10 years, no vascular complications.
Class C – diabetes developed between age 10 and 19 or have had the disease for 10-19 years, no vascular complications.
Class D – diabetes developed before age 10, have had the disease more than 20 years, vascular complications are present.
Class F – diabetic women with kidney disease called nephropathy.
Class R – diabetic women with retinopathy (retinal damage).
Class T – diabetic women who have undergone kidney transplant.
Class H – diabetic women with coronary artery or other heart disease.
It is very important for a mother to maintain very close control of her diabetes during pregnancy. ****Generally, the poorer the control of blood glucose and the more severe the disease and complications, the greater the risks for the pregnancy.****
The asterisks were my emphasis. Please note where it says “the more severe the disease and complications, the greater the risks for the pregnancy”
It’s not an issue of how well I control my glucose.
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Wait a minute- it’s the unintended death of a child? So how is it just a clump of meaningless cells? Do random cells have the capability of growing into an infant?
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Because of the intent. I did not choose to gestate that cluster of cells into a baby. You chose to have the baby and raise it into a person.
There is the difference.
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Caitlyn, read what you posted again. The poorer the CONTROL of the blood glucose. IT’s about how well you control the diabetes, like I said.
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Caitlyn…true or false- you are a cluster of cells.
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Capability does not equal actuality.
An acorn has the potential to be grown into a tree under the correct circumstances, but an acorn is not a tree.
For the same reason, without my intent to gestate the fetus into a child, it is not a child nor a baby.
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At this point in my life I am still made up of cells, but I am far beyond where I was as a 6-week fetus
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Actually, an acorn IS a little tree, scientifically speaking.
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an unborn human is still a human. It’s worth should not be determined by others, but by the fact that it is (exists). I would still have worth, even if everyone hated me. Why? Because I am a member of the human family, and that is a special thing!
A natural miscarriage is far different than a purposeful abortion. In one, no action was taken to purposely cause the death of the unborn child. In an abortion – if by surgery – then the surgeon purposely ends the child’s life by abortion – or by medication – the child dies as a result of ingesting medication to make the placenta fail thereby ending the unborn’s life. Either way – abortion by surgery or by RU-486 medication – the action was willful, purposeful and ended in the death of an pre-born human.
totally not the same as a miscarriage or the feelings and intent of the parents…the only sameness is that both end in the child’s death – one by nature, the other on purpose. And that is a world of difference.
Caitlyn – we are sorry you chose that route. So many people are misled by their doctors into thinking that holding a pregnancy or being healthy with one is impossible – but we see medical miracles every day – with surgery done on the mom or the child or many other such things. We hope that one day you may have natural children – and if you can not that you are open to helping children in some shape or form.
Post abortive women do not have to support abortion – and can heal from theirs as they need to. God’s plans are big, and beautiful for all of us – and the future holds much promise on all accounts.
Wishing you the time and grace to recognize that your child was indeed human and had worth, and that your would extend that invitation and recognition to all humans, no matter their state in life.
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So Caitlyn, based on what you said, someone older than you could kill you and claim their only crime was killing a cluster of cells who they had developed far past in their age.
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A toddler, though a cluster of cells, is WAY beyond a newborn….An adolescent is WAY beyond a toddler, and an adult is WAY beyond an adolescent. Do any of the older have a right to kill the younger based on this fact?
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as Dr. Seuss said – a person is a person, no matter how small.
The unborn are members of the same species as the parents. Those clump of cells are special – the unique, individual, unrepeatable human with their own DNA. At the moment of conception, that unborn human has all it needs to grow into the individual it’s meant to be – with height, eye color, attributes, sex, hair color, etc already generally determined. All that child needs is time and a good environment to grow as he/she ought.
And that human is at the early stages of its development – and it will grow into a newborn, toddler, young child, pre-teen, teen, young adult, adult, middle aged, aged and elderly human. That human had their own unique DNA throughout all it’s stages. It just grew and developed. That’s it! easy, natural, lovely.
Life is lovely that way. No need to disturb it.
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Why do you all keep spelling my name wrong? It’s posted like 15 times, and it’s right there for you to use as a reference.
And an acorn is NOT a tiny tree, scientifically speaking. It is the building block of a tree, but it is not a tree.
And I supported abortion long before I had mine, and mine was based on a combination of not being ready, potential for dangerous pregnancy, and a decision just…not to be pregnant at that moment in time. I do not regret this decision and I never will. Women should not be forced to feel bad about a decision that was right for them.
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An acorn is not a tree the same way a fetus is not a teenager or adult but they are both humans, likewise the acorn and tree are the same entity at different stages of growth. Everyone needs the right circumstances to keep growing that doesn’t stop at the fetus so it doesn’t make sense to draw the line there, it’s just arbitrary.
The word fetus describes a stage of development of offspring, it was never meant to distinguish from the word baby, it’s just a more specific term than baby.
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Hi Caitlin.
“That’s a ridiculous analogy, and you all know it. No one is chopping off toddlers’ heads here.”
We claim that morally speaking, an abortion is equivalent to chopping off a toddler’s head. Thus, your original argument about abortion only being 3% of PLanned Parenthood’s services does not address our claim that abortion is the moral equivalent of killing. That was the point of what Bryan said- to show that your original comment didn’t at all address the main claim of pro-lifers, which is that abortion is teh unjust taking of an innocent human life.
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Ah – what a difficult thing we do when we base human worth on a moving line of subjective qualities. That is what is so dangerous! Was one human below and above the Mason Dixon line? As a black person or white person? As a Jew or not? A Hutu or not? Part of one tribe or not?
when we allow the worth of humans to be declared on any subjective level, we are all at risk. Those in power determine the worth of those with little or no power – and that has a two-tiered system put our future and all of humanity at risk.
If a husband decides his wife deserves a beating – are we ok with that? He is bigger. He has the will. he decides that she is not human in his eye, or at least not human enough to be treated humanely. Is that ok? Of course not. So basically no human should be able to treat other humans less humanely – no matter their function, location, degree of dependency or size.
If you are a member of the human family – welcome!
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“An acorn has the potential to be grown into a tree under the correct circumstances, but an acorn is not a tree.”
The problem with this analogy is that it confuses accidents of a being with the substance of a being. Saying an acorn is not an oak tree is like saying that a toddler is not an adult or a fetus is not a teenager. Of course it isn’t. These are different stages of development in the life of a human being, just like the acorn stage and the full grown oak are simply stages in the development of that particular being. In fact, the acorn becomes the oak tree just like the fetus becomes the toddler. However, through all those stages of development, it remains biologically the same entity; it is a human being throughout.
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Caitlin – I don’t know where to start with this statement … ” without my intent to gestate the fetus into a child, it is not a child nor a baby.”
Caitlin, actually it is a baby – but you choose to deny that it is a baby or a child because of your intent. And, certainly, since you intend to terminate a pregnancy, the baby will not be able to grow and be born.
Could you put …” without my intent to have diabetes, I would not have it?”
Really, Caitlin, no matter WHAT your intent is, to continue a pregnancy or to terminate a pregnancy … the reality is that each pregnancy involves an innocent baby within a mother’s womb. That baby may be unhealthy, that baby may not survive to birth, but it is nonetheless a baby. Your intent has nothing to do with it.
I understand that your diabetes makes it dangerous to yourself to have children. BUT, that is not a reason to terminate a pregnancy. I do not know if you have considered not becoming pregnant in the first place, either through abstinence (yes, it can be done) or through having your tubes tied, or your partner having a vasectomy.
It would be preferable to you terminating a pregnancy, harming a living being.
I do understand where you are coming from – I too, was pro-abortion. I HAD to be pro-abortion. I lost a child to abortion and I had to defend what I had permitted to happen. I came close to loosing my mind when the reality of abortion hit me, nearly 30 years after the fact.
It is a difficult thing to reconcile our actions in terminating a pregnancy with who we are as women. I imagine that you would never wish to harm another person and yet, due to your diabetes you felt you had no other choice.
In order to defend your actions, you need to insist that your intent was never to “gestate” a fetus. I get you…and I offer you a way to accept what happened in your pregnancy and reconcile yourself to the fact that 1) yes you had an abortion 2) it was due to no-choice, advise from doctors and medical personnel 3) and be able to see that ALL life should be preserved from the moment of conception to the end of natural life.
It may seem that those who are pro-life are so myopic as to understanding who you are – what you have been through – but truly, Caitlin, we have, some of us, had abortions, have come to terms with it and never wish another mom to have to make a choice to terminate her child’s life.
I apologize for any harm that any pro-lifer has inflicted upon you in their arguments for life. You have my sincere prayers for healing and for knowing that we only wish the best for you.
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oops, sorry Caitlin. I’ll try to type better next time. (this is one of the many reasons I was not a secretary!) LOL
And Caitlin – many times it takes 6-8 years or more to have post abortive women realize what is going on post-abortion-wise. I know women who swore they would never change their minds – until they had an ultrasound of their children or had children of their own. Also when women have spiritual awakening, then they realize what is going on. But – no matter – when people need help, we are there to help, as are many groups that specialize in that.
Sorry to hear you are long-time supporter of abortion. I hope that your eyes open to the humanity of the children and the harm done to so many via abortion — but sometimes it takes a long journey to recognize.
When I was younger, I thought certain things were just fine. Now, as I am older, I see that my vision was cloudy and I regret championing things I now see as destructive. It just takes time and eyes to see. Sometimes those blinders never come off, but sometimes they do.
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Caitlin, I don’t understand how biological offspring can gestate into a biological child. A clump of cells cannot grow into a state of having parents (therefore being the parent’s child) if you left them to it because having parents can only happen if you are a member of a species. Specie membership is a fixed point that starts at the start of development-conception.
Humans reproduce sexually, therefore offspring are conceived, and it is not physically possible for mammals to grow their offspring from the cells of their own body-what you described as ‘menstrual blood’.
I am really sorry for your loss.
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If I was an unwanted child, but my sister was a planned and wanted child, at what point is it no longer alright to murder me?? Is it alright to murder me at 6 weeks because I’m very, very small? Is it alright to murder me at 20 weeks because I’m still inside the womb? Is it alright to murder me one hour before my mother goes into labor? Is it alright to murder me one hour after I am born? Is it alright to murder me one year after I am born? What difference do all these times make? Was I not unique at conception? At conception, did I not begin to grow? (I did) Five minutes after conception, how I am I different from one year old? I am unique, growing, alive by all scientific standards and measurements.
There is no justification for abortion. There is, I see, rationalization, but that does not justify murder. Wanted vs unwanted as a definition of life? That is so unscientific. Is a puppy less alive if it’s mother didn’t intend to get pregnant? Is a gorilla less alive if it’s father didn’t mean to sire offspring? Would you tell a biologist or zookeeper, “Gee, I know that animal is living, but since its unwanted it is LESS alive than other animals and therefore we can kill it.” Not only is that completely unscientific, it’s cruel and brutal.
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Caitlin,
One of my sisters has Type 1 Diabetes and she had 3 healthy boys and she’s doing fine. She had to have a C-Section before 40 weeks for all of them, but they were all healthy and she was healthy. She had to be careful and watch herself even more so in pregnancy, but she was able to get pregnant, go through the pregnancy and have the baby via C-section and still be healthy.
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Caitlin,
You owe it to yourself to be honest with yourself, let’s stop playing word games and using euphemisms.
Often the term “pregnancy,” and embryonic/fetal development as well as what will occur during an abortion is intentionally described in a vague manner when discussing an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy.
Pregnancy describes the state/condition of carrying offspring. This condition can only be terminated either by the death and expulation of the offspring (miscarriage or abortion) or via live birth (vaginal or c-section).
The sciences of embryology and genetics tell us that human offspring can only be human. Furthermore, at the point of conception, a new, individual human being is formed with all the of the DNA and chromosomes as a fully formed adult, wherein only needing to physically develop. Zygote, embryo, and fetus, infant, child, adolescent all describe developmental stages in a human life cycle. Whether a person considers their pregnancy wanted or unwanted or as a “potential life” it doesn’t change that it is/was a developing human being. I think what the others here are trying to say is that it is a slippery slope to assign worth and value based on developmental stage.
Now you described your embryo as ”a little cluster of cells” Let’s look at some embryology to see how accurate this is:
Embryo at 4 weeks (30 days) post-ovulation, 6 weeks since LMP (Last Menstrual Period)
Carnegie Stage 13
http://www.visembryo.com/baby/13.html
http://php.med.unsw.edu.au/embryology/index.php?title=Carnegie_stage_13
The first thin surface layer of skin appears covering the embryo. The arches that form the face and neck are now becoming evident under the enlarging forebrain. By the time the neural tube is closed, both the eye and ear will have begun to form. At this stage, the brain and spinal cord together are the largest and most compact tissue of the embryo. Neural tube continues to close. The digestive epithelium layer begins to differentiate into the future locations of the liver, lung, stomach and pancreas. A blood system continues to develop. Blood cells follow the surface of yolk sac where they originate, move along the central nervous system, and move in the chorionic villi, the maternal blood system.
Embryo at 6 weeks (42-44 days) post-ovulation, 8 weeks since LMP
Carnegie stage 17-18
http://www.visembryo.com/baby/17.html
http://embryo.soad.umich.edu/carnStages/stage17/stage17.html
Jaw and facial muscles are now developing. The nasofrontal groove becomes distinct and an olfactory bulb (sense of smell) forms in the brain. Auricular (ear) hillocks become recognizable. The dental laminae or teeth buds begin to form. The pituitary, which is the master gland responsible for growth of hormones that regulate other glands, such as the thyroid, adrenal glands, gonad) begins to form.Trachea, the larynx and the bronchi begin to form. The heart begins to separate into four chambers. Diaphragm, the tissue that separates the chest cavity from the abdomen, forms. Intestines begin to develop within the umbilical cord and will later migrate into the abdomen when the embryo’s body is large enough to accommodate them. Primitive germ cells arrive at the genital area and will respond to genetic instructions to develop into either female or male genitals. Hand region of upper limb bud differentiates further to form a central carpal part and a digital plate. The thigh (rostrolateral part), leg (the caudomedial part) and foot areas can be distinguished in the lower limb buds. The trunk becomes straighter.
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(Ah darn library computer, keeps freezing on me :p )
Caitlin,
Also, I furthermore suggest you read some open and honest accounts of how abortions are preformed:
What to Expect: Medical Abortion
Describes how a medical abortion is done, what it will physically feel like to have a medical abortion and how one may feel after it is over. A non-political and non-religious article for informational purposes.
What to Expect: Surgical Abortion
Describes how a surgical abortion is preformed, what it will physically feel like to have a surgical abortion, and how one may feel after it is over. A non-political and non-religious article for informational purposes.
I don’t question the severity of your diabetes as much as it sounds like the doctor gave you very little options or support. It sounds like a cop-out on the doctor’s part, for not presenting you with more information and resources. For example:
Be Not Afraid
http://benotafraid.net/
and
“Health care providers no longer discourage women with diabetes from becoming pregnant. We now know that the key to a healthy pregnancy for a woman with diabetes is keeping blood glucose (sugar) in the target range — both before she is pregnant and during her pregnancy. To do this, you need a diabetes treatment plan that keeps meals, exercise, and insulin in balance. This plan will change as you change with pregnancy. You will also need to check your blood glucose often and keep a record of your results. With your blood glucose in the target range and good medical care, your chances of a trouble-free pregnancy and a healthy baby are almost as good as they are for a woman without diabetes.”
http://www.diabetes.org/gestational-diabetes/pregancy.jsp
Please don’t misunderstand, I’m not trying to attack you by any means, but rather I’m correcting some misconceptions you have, as I said above, you owe it to be honest with yourself. Frank and honest discussions are always better than leaving things unsaid and misunderstood.
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*Correction:
I don’t question the severity of your diabetes as much as it sounds like the doctor gave you worse-case scenarios and very little options or support.
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mdjm1234,
April 13, 2011 at 10:35 am
Good luck with your discussion. I went over for a look and it actually looked pretty civil. (That was an hour or two ago, I hope it still is….you never know over there.)
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Also – I want to let you know that some doctors discourage certain women from being pregnant or having a baby because they fear lawsuits or difficult patients. We had one such scenario when a woman with some physical ailments was pregnant and went to her doctor. She already had 3 children. He told her she HAD to have an abortion.
Red flag right there. There technically is no scientific reason to have an abortion. 99.99% of all items can be dealt with treatment to either mother or baby. It is truly RARE that neither of those would work. so with time, medical knowledge and cooperation of patients with the doctors, practically anything can be dealt with…
So anyway – we told her we were not nurses or doctors, but that she should seek another opinion with another doctor. She did – and of course that doctor told her that she could have that baby – no problem!
So why did that first doctor tell her she HAD to have an abortion? Bravely, she went to that first doctor and she asked him straight out. He stated that ‘she was going through a lot right then, and she had too many children anyway!’
So – beware when you have a doctor advising you to HAVE to have an abortion. Most of the time – it’s about the DOCTOR, not about the patient. We’ve seen that enough to know that some doctors are not performing medicine as they should.
a pity. Sorry – but maybe your doctor was in that category.
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I often find myself wondering about how pro-aborts view a situation where the woman is uncertain about having the abortion and is debating back and forth to herself. Do they visualize what’s going on in her uterus at that point as “now it’s a baby, now it’s a blob, now it’s a baby, now it’s a blob,” and so on, back and forth and back and forth?
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My boyfriend’s mom had gestational diabetes when she was pregnant with him and didn’t find out until late in the pregnancy. I thank God that she didn’t abort him and stop me from ever knowing one of the sweetest, kindest, and most beautiful human beings I have ever met.
We’re getting married in about a year and one of our bridesmaids-to-be is deaf in one ear, blind in one eye, and didn’t have a functional jaw until she had surgery when she was eighteen years old. Her mother had meningitis when she was pregnant with her.
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You know, I’m realizing how hard it is to bridge the gap between post-abortive-now-pro-life and post-abortive-still-pro-choice. All post abortive women heal at different rates. It is a kind of grief, but because it’s so politicized, we are encouraged to just move on and not dwell. My friends had no idea how to help me through it (have another drink!) and the very unsympathetic pro-lifers I’d encountered were too doom and gloom (you’re going to hell). Somewhere in between those two might have helped me heal more quickly.
We are frustrated with Caitlin’s seeming lack of sympathy for her child, yet, do we really want to push a post abortive woman down the guilt well? Probably not. None of us liked being in the guilt well; it’s dark and awful and hard to climb out of it. I think I need to go back and reread the piece on how to relate to post abortive women! I hope Caitlin will be able to see through our frustration, because we really want to stop the killing of pre-born humans. We don’t want women to feel endlessly bad, maybe, just bad enough to stop advocating for abortion, or just bad enough not to recommend abortion to your friends. It’s tough, and it’s too bad that Planned Parenthood and the other abortionists have put so many millions of women in this position. I hope Cece’s gold brooch is worth it. Me? I don’t know how Richards sleeps at night.
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All of you ladies are so right. It took me 18 years and the birth of my second son before the reality of my abortion hit me square in the face. Hell could be no worse than what I went through with guilt and shame. And it had nothing to do with the pro-life movement or any pro-life literature hitting me in the face. It all came to me from within, from a scientific perspective.
My prayer for you Caitlin, is that when that day comes for you, you have an amazing support system and that you remember that you can come here for love and prayers.
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Caitlin,
Bravo!!! I am happy that you chose what was right for you. Because in the end, it was your choice to do with your body what you wish. If there were risks associated with your pregnancy, or simply if you decided that you didn’t want to allow six weeks of cells that people want to call baby be born…kudos to you for your choice!!! I have no problem calling cells a baby…please everyone, continue calling them a baby. I will continue to fight to allow a woman to choose to expel the cells from her body.
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Jake – I am glad that you are so cavalier in your attitude about Caitlin’s disease of diabetes and the fact that her disease was a huge factor in aborting her child. You seem to be a very uncaring person in that regard.
We all expel and slough off cells every day, Jake. Caitlin’s baby was a a group of cells, beautifully formed together in human life. Her body is definitely hers to do with what she wishes – where the problem is is that she was carrying another body that deserved to have the right to do with what it wished to do with it.
Jake – why are you fighting? The law of the land is that anyone can abort their child…
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Lee, please demonstrate where I expressed a cavalier attitude towards diabetes as a serious disease. I actually supported Caitlin in her choice to do what is best for her to manage her disease. Are your reading comprehension skills so lacking that you don’t understand the meaning of my message? As for the fighting comment, as long as people try to take away existing laws, certainly you can understand that people will fight to keep the laws intact? If I posted a comment that all women should not be allowed to vote, would you not fight to keep that right intact? Your arguments are illogical and not well presented. Please get a clue.
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Jake – your attitude about Caitlin’s reason for an abortion, which is diabetes is cavalier. I took your post and put it into words a little bit differently.
I have great reading comprehension skills – I understand that you are all for sloughing off cells that are six weeks old and that women should be able to do what they want to do with their bodies. Only problem is – the six week old cells are not her body. Those cells have their own DNA, have already formed a heart and a heart beat -
If you posted that women should not be allowed to vote, I would ascertain your reasons for your position. I would not “fight” you for something that does no harm, and is a privilege that all citizens of the U.S. enjoy, when they are over the age of 21, and are not a convicted felon.
I am for all human rights – the born and the unborn – now that is something worth fighting about
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Lee, reread your post…I will quote you to make it easier…”I am glad that you are so cavalier in your attitude about Caitlin’s disease of diabetes and the fact that her disease was a huge factor in aborting her child”
Again I ask, how am I cavalier about her disease or her reasons for abortion? Seems like a logical reason to me to have an abortion. Doesn’t seem cavalier at all. In fact, one might argue it is the opposite of cavalier. One might argue that it is a serious condition that might prompt one to consider choosing to do with her body what is best for her survival, you know, abortion. Maybe you don’t understand what cavalier means. I suggest you look it up before posting again.
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Lee, to help you out I will post the definition of cavalier:
careless: showing an arrogant or jaunty disregard or lack of respect for something or somebody
And to further help you…. I stated that if there were risks associated with her pregnancy, then kudos to her for choosing to have an abortion. Seems to me that I stated, amongst other possible reasons to choose an abortion, an actual respect for Caitlin for choosing to stay healthy and alive. Seems like the opposite of Cavalier. Still want to claim your reading comprehension skills are great?
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Perhaps it is your whole post, which is cavalier – to take the death of an innocent baby and cheer the mother on is very, very strange, Jake.
Women deserve better than abortion. They deserve support and help in a difficult pregnancy. Not the sloughing off of their six week old cells (a baby) by an abortionist.
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Maybe Lee, you meant I have a cavalier attitude towards those Cells/babies that Caitlin aborted. If that is what you meant….then yes you have a case. But please Lee, try to frame your arguments so they make sense. I hate having to argue the other side to help you make sense.
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Jake you’re a bunch of cells that are X amount of years old, that people call a person.
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You guys really buy this BS? Caitlin aborted her child because she didn’t want him. If she had, the diabetes wouldn’t likely stop her. I guarantee that she will want and try to have a baby in spite of her diabetes when she wants a child. People will always come up with rationalizations to justify doing whatever they want to do. It doesn’t mean we have to buy them, especially when none of Caitlin’s words indicate a woman who wanted to have a child who was coerced by fear for her health into abortion. Her child was killed because she didn’t want him. Period.
I see right through you, Caitlin.
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Jacqueline – it matters NOT why a woman aborts her child. The fact is the woman was either coerced, pressured or has bought into the ideology that if a child is not wanted, it can and was aborted.
Caitlin has said that she had no intent to gestate a child. She also has diabetes.
If you are pro-life and you do not respect the reasons a woman decides to, is pressured or coerced to abort their child, then you are not respecting the dignity of the woman.
When we listen, when we have empathy, then we have a basis from which to dialogue. When we blame a woman for aborting, we are not respecting her and the circumstances that led up to her abortion.
Of course she needs to rationalize her actions – they were horrific and she is trying to deal with them . . . please think about that. Yes, it is sad, very tragic that a child was lost through an abortion, however, a mother’s soul is also lost.
As pro-life people, we need to be compassionate, not so stuck in our passion for life that we forget a mother is hurting, as is a father when they have had an abortion.
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Lee,
Oh BULL. Catering to disingenuousness under the guise of compassion is still catering to disingenuousness. You do what you please and feel as good about yourself as you’d like to for doing so- but I refuse to spread the lies that people use to justify hurting others. The circumstances that led to Caitlin’s abortion were that she didn’t want the child. That’s the truth. She’s admitted it. The rest is just a rationalization and a convenient cop-out. There is nothing dignified about this that I should “respect.”
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Jacqueline – when a person does something so horrific, such as abort their child, their mind has to come up with reasons as to why they did it.
I was told that I had to abort my child because I was in college and I would not be able to finish college and that no man would want me if I had a child and that…blah, blah, blah. I was never given an option as to what would happen to my child.
For years, I rationalized that my abortion was a necessary procedure. I HAD to believe that – for it was impossible for me to reconcile the fact that I actually permitted my child to be aborted. When I started to understand how horrific the procedure was, what had actually happened during the abortion, I came very close to loosing my mind.
It was a very lonely, scary place, Jacqueline. If, at that time, I had someone like you judging me in the harsh way that you are judging Caitlin, I can guarantee you, I would have become even more hard core pro-abortion. For I would not have been able to risk even listening to you.
If you wish to end abortion – you must understand WHY women abort their babies. You need to be able to meet the women where they are at – not judge them.
A wonderful place of healing – no judgement, no condemnation is Rachel’s Vineyard retreats -
I pray, Jacqueline that you will benefit from being educated and do no more harm to those who are post abortive.
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I 100% agree that post-abortive women need compassion, and know that ignorance and coercion play a huge role in the majority of abortions. But the same argument that you’re using, Lee, I have heard pastors use as a reason to never touch or address abortion in the church: we have women (and men) in these pews who’ve had abortions, we need to be sensitive! Had any of these heard the TRUTH beforehand, perhaps their children would not have died a horrific, violent death. Ignoring a problem perpetuates it & quite frankly, leaves those same people in bondage. That’s why I’m so grateful for women who, like Carla, tell their stories in churches. How many of us would like to have to get up and re-visit what was our greatest failure before knowing God’s forgiveness?
I think we can still, “respect the dignity of the woman” without “respecting her decision” — it’s the difference between what Caitlin paid a hitman to do to her child, and Caitlin herself. You mentioned placing blame. Frankly, if Caitlin is ever going to heal she does have to own what she did.
Imagine if we were to apply these standards to domestic abuse. When my ex-BIL beat my sister, I didn’t give a flying fig for his feelings & attempts to justify his violence. I would never say I respected his decision to hurt another person, regardless of how justified his reasons might sound. I CERTAINLY would never say “Kudos” or “Bravo!” as Jake has done to Caitlin. Does one have to see the result of the violence in order to properly understand this? My sister had more of a fighting chance than a baby does in an abortion. Yet, my BIL remains an object of God’s love and His forgiveness is available to him if he ever were to repent.
This has been a very close-to-the-heart issue for me, as I tried to see God’s way of dealing with humans whom He loves (abortionists, deathscorts, etc.), whose actions He abhors. He led me to Jude 1:22-23:
And of some have compassion, making a difference:
And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
This was a rhema word to me, and I “get it” if others do not see the distinction as clearly as I do.
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Lee- You can’t assume that your experience is universal. You act on that assumption like it’s gospel and because you felt you had to lie to yourself for years you are suggestion that we indulge the self-lies of others. You’re sugar-coating the truth in order to cajole people to repentance may very well be correct, or it could be reinforcing the very lies they use to never seek help. You are post-abortive yourself, and I won’t argue your experience, but I routinely send women to Project Rachel and have heard a million different stories. I agree that woman make up justifications- but you don’t have to play along with them.
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P.S. Don’t condescend me.
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Lee,
I so get what you are saying and want to thank you for saying it!!
Caitlin just might need abortion recovery someday and the porchlight should be left on.
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Lee,
I understand what you’re saying about respect and empathy and I think that is important not to drive women away with harsh words. The last thing they need is to be alienated in such a rough situation but I wonder, do you think there’s a danger of being too compassionate? I mean if you come off too understanding it might just reinforce their decision to abort, making it seem justifed.
I’m very sorry that you were in such a lonely, scary state Lee and I hope that you are at a better place now and I’m glad you could impart wisdom from that experience. My only concern is that not every woman feels the same way you did and make decisions for reasons less than noble. People should be respected but not necessarily the decisions. Some women just need to hear the plain, hard truth but that truth will one day set them free.
The pro-choice community uses emotion to support women’s decisions to abort thus minimizing the unborn’s value. They feed off of this empathy, give them an inch and they’ll take a mile.
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Caitlin paid for the death of her child.
So did I.
She is fine with that. For now.
I am not.
There is no sugar coating that.
Someday(not today)she just might come to the end of herself and desperately need help.
I will be there for her. I have been there. So has Lee.
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When Christ met the woman at the well, He did not condemn her. When Christ came upon the woman caught in adultery, He did not condemn her – please, pro-life people – wake up! Indeed, He said “Does anyone here condemn you? Neither do I, go and sin no more” It is not our place to condemn for in that condemnation, we condemn ourselves.
I am not saying that Caitlin’s rationale is good – I am not saying it is bad. What I am writing and this is important for people to understand is IT WAS WHAT IT WAS!
She cannot do anything to bring her aborted child back to life. We further injure her and shut her down when we blame her.
Think about it – if i were to hold your sins in front of you(and you know you have them, as do I have sins) - how would you react? Would you trust me? Would you want to dialogue with me? Or, would you run as fast as you could the other way?
The reason we have abortion in our nation is complex – it is not because it is not preached about in the Church or churches. It is in part because there are judgmental, people, like some of you writing, that condemn and continue to condemn.
What Caitlin has done is between herself and God. What God offers her, through us, is a chance to heal. But we cannot reach out to her in love if we are so busy condemning her and not realizing her pain.
Jacqueline – if you send people to Project Rachel, do you follow up to see if they have actually contacted PR? Truly, if you were to talk to me about my abortion the way you are writing to Caitlin, and then tell me to go to PR, I would blow you off in a nano second.
I am still healing from my abortion nearly 41 years ago, the end of this month. I have spent 41 years trying to come to terms with it and when I read “do gooder pro-life judgmental” writings, it makes my heart sad. I will be healing the rest of my life,
Carla – yes, always, the porch light is on for all those who have been through this horrible experience, and even though Jacqueline says that my experience is not universal, you and I know it is…
Been there, done that – I know what works in healing, and I know what further injures and alienates in healing.
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She cannot do anything to bring her aborted child back to life. We further injure her and shut her down when we blame her.
No disrespect intended here, Lee – and I confess that I’ve just read your latest comment and not the others – but a woman who aborts must first accept responsibility for what she has done if healing is to take place. How is an unrepentant person to receive forgiveness from the Lord and be healed? Post-abortion counseling, when done properly, will be beneficial for the woman who is mindful of what she has done and who has repented of it in her heart. But it will not benefit those who simply wish to feel “at ease” or “less stressed” in their lives from any lingering, bad results from her abortion. This is my view. I hope I’m making sense.
Think about it – if i were to hold your sins in front of you(and you know you have them, as do I have sins) – how would you react? Would you trust me? Would you want to dialogue with me? Or, would you run as fast as you could the other way?
That depends. If I am penitent, I would dialogue with you. If I am rebelling against the truth about the sin in my life, then yes, I’d run.
The reason we have abortion in our nation is complex – it is not because it is not preached about in the Church or churches. It is in part because there are judgmental, people, like some of you writing, that condemn and continue to condemn.
The reason we have abortion is because first and foremost, we are sinful. We do not have abortions because people condemn it. We have abortion because people look the other way. Compassion is crucial, and Satan does blind the minds of unbelievers. But this does not somehow excuse sin – not for any of us. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
What Caitlin has done is between herself and God. What God offers her, through us, is a chance to heal. But we cannot reach out to her in love if we are so busy condemning her and not realizing her pain.
Caitlin (like all of us) does not need anyone to condemn her, because when we are without Christ, we are condemned already. (John 3:18) What God offers her is a chance to be born again, saved from sin, and then to heal. Try to do it in the wrong order, and you have a mess.
I am still healing from my abortion nearly 41 years ago, the end of this month. I have spent 41 years trying to come to terms with it and when I read “do gooder pro-life judgmental” writings, it makes my heart sad. I will be healing the rest of my life,
Yes. There are some things that will not be healed in this life. Thank you for sharing here, Lee. I am sorry for your loss and your pain.
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Kelli, I agree with what you have just said wholeheartedly.
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Lee,
Feel free to judge me (you apparently don’t see the irony) and continue to support people in their delusions. Yes, it is what is was, but the healing you seek for people won’t come until those rationalizations are abandoned and replaced with the truth. You may think that you can reinforce that rationalizations (self-lies) and they will dissolve and I only hope you are right. I don’t think so. Let’s just leave it at that. I don’t answer to you in my ministry and your opinion of me is not my greatest concern.
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I was in denial after my abortion for at least 7 years. Why is it ok to call a woman delusional??
How has the truth telling worked so far with Caitlin?
I am pretty sure she came here with some preconceived notions of her own about what we are like. Wonder if we lived up to them.
I mean it would have been awesome had she seen that photo of Blessing and been overcome with remorse. She didn’t. But who knows? Maybe that photo will be burned into her brain.
I think that those that have had abortions and been forgiven for them have quite a bit of insight to share as well. We have a place at this table and know what worked and what didn’t in our recovery.
I have a heart for the Caitlins, Megans, Erins, and CCs of this world. Their children died in their abortions just like mine. I pray someday I get to offer them what was offered to me. Doesn’t mean I don’t feel as strongly as you about the act of abortion.
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I think that those that have had abortions and been forgiven for them have quite a bit of insight to share as well.
Without the stories and perspectives of those who have been there, the pro-life movement wouldn’t be what it is today.
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I think that those that have had abortions and been forgiven for them have quite a bit of insight to share as well. We have a place at this table and know what worked and what didn’t in our recovery.
Of course you do. No one is suggesting you don’t. What is implied though is the suggestion that your experience is universal. I have been through traumas (not like yours) but don’t condescend to assume that everyone will heal like I did.
It’s okay to call anyone delusional, man or woman, if they are delusional. There is nothing mean about calling someone who has clear delusions delusional. There is nothing mean about telling someone in denial that they are in denial, especially when the denial could kill them. My mom was in denial over her alcoholism until she overheard a comment that snapped her out of it. She had a vested interest in believing what she wanted (we all do), but the truth that she needed to stop drinking set her free. Had we kept making excuses for her drinking (or do like Lee is doing by buying into her obviously fake rationalization of diabetes), then she might have drank herself to death. Spiritual death is real, too.
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There are aspects of abortion recovery that have been universal to EVERY one of the women I have ever had the privilege of walking with.
Are we fighting? :)
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Hi Kel, Thank you.
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Yes, and there are universal stages of grief that Elizabeth Kubler-Ross found. Are you saying that delusions are part of it and those delusions should be coddled?
Nope. Not fighting. Talking. :)
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One very charitable but completely untrue thing I hear is that all women hurt from their abortions. I can introduce you to several who don’t.
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I never said the word delusional. You did.
I am not the coddling type.
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You don’t think women that claim they had abortions for grandiose and fake reasons aren’t deluding themselves?
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Bethany – I’m so sorry for your loss. Thank you for posting that photo as proof it is NOT a blob of tissue or blob of cells. How preposterous those names are. Maybe a measuring tape or dime in the picture would have helped give some scale comparison.
Thank you for posting that photo anyway !
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Thank you so much for the kind words, SB Smith….I do have a picture of my baby on my hand for scale:
And this one here might also give a little bit of scale- it was a tiny wooden jewelry box and the baby was in a sandwich sized Ziploc bag with water.
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Sorry those images are so large.
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Jacqueline – I am not judging you – I am judging the tone and the words that you have written to Caitlin. I do not want Caitlin further injured by anyone.
If we demand someone repent or else (and this is to Kel) we will not dialogue with them, we are shutting them down. We all need to be compassionate and gentle to everyone – not just some. We meet people, like Christ did, where they are. We talk with them, we get to know them, their hearts, their joys and the pain. THEN we can continue to work with them in their healing journey.
Meeting a person where they are does not mean that you are condoning their life style or their past – it means that you are being Christ to them and they are bringing Christ to you. When I read words like they are condemned if they are not with Christ, I cringe.
Jacqueline – I know you do not care what my opinion of you is and that is how it should be. I do pray, though, that you will learn how people heal – how they feel safe to be open to healing.
Kel – I do not believe the notion that a woman or man who looses a child to abortion is ever “healed”. No more than a mother or father who looses a child to a premature death (car accident, SIDS, whatever) is healed from that loss. In abortion, one can heal from the physical aspects of abortion, although infertility is a life time for some, but one never heals from child loss. Thank you for your condolences.
As far as some women not being affected by their abortions – that is fine. It is not my business. My business is to never further injure anyone who is post abortive and also to educate those whose words may cause injury and delay their healing. (and using the words kill and dead child, murder are not helpful)
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Here’s another size reference:
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Bethany – could you please tell me how old your baby was? I cannot find a reference to the baby, as far as age goes. Thank you and I am sorry for your loss.
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Lee, the baby died at around 6 and a half weeks, from what the doctors told me. I was 8 weeks pregnant (10 LMP) when I found out.
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Ohhhh … so many times the photos one sees are so “doctored” for viewing and people disbelieve that the babies are actually real. Thank you for posting your little one and your loving hand.
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Here is a link to a picture of an embryo on wikipedia which is listed as being 6 weeks, for comparison (from a ruptured ectopic pregnancy):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Human_Embryo.JPG
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Lee, thank you for your kind words!
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You are most welcome, Bethany
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If we demand someone repent or else (and this is to Kel) we will not dialogue with them, we are shutting them down. We all need to be compassionate and gentle to everyone – not just some. We meet people, like Christ did, where they are. We talk with them, we get to know them, their hearts, their joys and the pain. THEN we can continue to work with them in their healing journey.
Hi Lee. I have done post-abortion counseling and was a CPC director. I believe in compassion (perhaps you missed that in my post), and have even helped post-abortive women who did NOT regret their abortions. Christ met people where they were, yes, but He also expected repentance to occur. If repentance does not occur (which only the Holy Spirit can bring about) then how can anyone really come to terms with what they have done? This is basic stuff. If we do not believe we are sinners, we must look into the mirror of the Law so we can then be led to Christ.
When I read words like they are condemned if they are not with Christ, I cringe.
Then you take issue with Christ, not with me. John 3:18-21 “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.”
We are ALL condemned if we are not in Christ, Lee. Not just post-abortive women. Perhaps I didn’t make that clear enough.
Kel – I do not believe the notion that a woman or man who looses a child to abortion is ever “healed”. No more than a mother or father who looses a child to a premature death (car accident, SIDS, whatever) is healed from that loss. In abortion, one can heal from the physical aspects of abortion, although infertility is a life time for some, but one never heals from child loss.
I would agree with you, absolutely.
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“Then you take issue with Christ, not with me”
Absolutely correct Kel.
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I have no issue with Christ – I am a believer of Christianity – using the bible as it was first pulled together by the different councils. I have an issue with people who take part of the bible over another part of it and use it as a weapon. That is not what the bible is for. Just to clarify
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I don’t think Kel is using the Bible as a weapon. Her tone has not been one of hatred- she is simply explaining the truth in love.
She is not saying abortion is what condemns a person – what condemns us is being in sin and without Christ. That describes everyone who is not in Christ, not just post abortive women.
The only way to find healing after abortion is to come to a realization of the fact that we are lost and need Christ. If we are still justifying the actions we have made, then we can never reach this state. There is a right and a wrong way to dispense with the truth, but in my opinion, there is nothing improper or harsh about Kelli’s use of the scripture here.
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Bethany,
I’m sorry for your loss. This doesn’t change the fact that your child was wanted and mine was not. Therefor you grieve the loss of a potential child and I celebrate the fact that I didn’t have to endure a dangerous pregnancy and an unwanted child.
If you had any tact or consideration for others, you’d have stopped at “Bethany, I’m sorry for your loss.” But you obviously don’t. It’s all about you, right? Someone else’s miscarriage is all about Caitlin. Got it.
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Bethany – when someone takes scripture or part of any religious book, not using it in its entirety using it for their agenda, without meeting the person first where they are and respecting where they are, then the scripture(or phrase) is being used as a weapon.
When you tell anyone that they are condemned and they are in sin because they are not in Christ, you alienate them. When you tell someone that Christ has changed your life because you have found His Mercy to be unfathomable and great, then you give that person hope – you give that person a reason to want to know Christ. How often in scripture does Jesus quote scripture? Very seldom . . . and never as a condition.
There are many different faith beliefs, even amongst Christians, sadly – some believe that once the sinner’s prayer has been said, they are no longer in sin, some believe that once they are baptized, they are still sinners, but that God is every merciful and forgiving, some believe that one does not have to be baptized until they are older, etc, etc.
As I stated before, I do not argue scripture quotes, especially when they are being used as weapon.
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when someone takes scripture or part of any religious book, not using it in its entirety using it for their agenda, without meeting the person first where they are and respecting where they are, then the scripture(or phrase) is being used as a weapon.
Lee, this is simply not true. No one has quoted Scripture out of context here. Jesus Christ Himself spoke those words to Nicodemus in John 3. Here is the passage, so that you might read its full context (with the part I quoted before in bold):
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7“Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11“Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12“If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
Was Christ alienating Nicodemus? Or was he telling him the Truth that would set him free?
When you tell someone that Christ has changed your life because you have found His Mercy to be unfathomable and great, then you give that person hope – you give that person a reason to want to know Christ.
Yes, absolutely – but before one can fully appreciate the mercy of the Lord, do we not need to grasp that we are sinners who deserve God’s wrath? Otherwise His mercy seems hollow and meaningless.
How often in scripture does Jesus quote scripture? Very seldom . . . and never as a condition.
He quoted from 24 books of the Old Testament, according to what we have recorded in the Bible.
He claimed to be THE Way, the Truth and the Life, and that no one could come to the Father except through Him. That’s quite a condition. And the condition I quoted in John 3, stated by Jesus Himself, about those who do not believe being condemned already – well, I don’t know what to say if you choose to think of that statement as a weapon. I choose to look at it as the truth of who we are as human beings: fallen, and in need of God’s forgiveness and mercy. But again, we cannot understand or appreciate God’s incredible lovingkindness if we do not first understand that we are sinners. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
All I am trying to say, Lee, is that we cannot overlook addressing sin in post-abortion counseling. Do we want to be unloving, horrible jerks about it? Of course not. But we cannot ignore it, and we must tell the Gospel. There can be no Gospel – no good news – without first acknowledging sin, and the fact that we are “objects of wrath” who, by being redeemed through Christ, “shall obtain mercy.”
i apologize for the long post.
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