Liberal feminism indentured to abortion on demand
To the liberal feminists in mainstream media, a conservative woman’s opinion can’t possibly be legitimate. Unfortunately, those outlets often carry the loudest megaphones for women’s issues in elections – and seem to have little regard for those who identify as pro-life….
It’s obvious that… feminist entities are only pro-women when it comes to women who support their radical ideology. They cloak the abortion issue in the mantle of “health care,” but it’s clear the main concern is access to abortion on demand.
~ Ericka Andersen, The Foundry, June 27
[Image via worldcantwait.net]
Jun.28, 2011 11:09 am |
Free Speech |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
That sign should read “MURDER ON DEMAND and WITHOUT APOLOGY”. Tell it like it REALLY is. Guess what you radicals? Half the people you’re demanding to kill are UNBORN WOMEN!
Perhaps we should develop of method of removing the offensive fetus from the womb and placing into an artificial environment til term?
The bottom line is quite simple: Women have the right to determine when/if they have children. They have the right to decide if they wish to consent to the complications of pregnancy and childbirth. They have the right to decide if they wish to spend the next nine months in and out of doctor’s offices, over the toilet throwing up, placing their jobs & schooling in jeopardy due to appointments and illnesses. They have the right to decide if they wish to share their body with a fetus, which will derive all of its nutrients from the woman – placing her iron, calcium, etc levels at risk. She has the right to decide if she wishes to host a fetus that will forever change how her body functions and looks.
Until our technology is capable of developing that artificial environment, abortion will ALWAYS be necessary to ensure that women retain the right to bodily autonomy.
The time for “women to determine when/if they have children” is before having sex, not after conception.
Jeanne,
Are you suggesting that any woman who decides she doesn’t want children RIGHT NOW refrain from sex? You do recognize the psychological, physical and sociological benefits that sex boasts, right?
Birth control fails and condoms break. Women should not be held at the mercy of their biological function to carry children.
Yes, I am suggesting that any woman who does not want to conceive a child actually refrain from sex. By the way, Beth, conceiving a child is one of the benefits of having sex that you declined to mention.
It’s only a benefit if you actually want the child.
Jeanne,
Your suggestions are far from realistic and reek of misogyny and naivety. Women will continue to have sex, as is their right, and should be encouraged to do so in a healthy manner. Taking precautions is ALWAYS advisable and sexual education shouldn’t be considered a taboo subject. People HAVE SEX. We should be open to discussing the benefits of sex and why people who do NOT want children should be cautious when engaging in it.
I declined to mention conceiving a child as a benefit of having sex because some people don’t view it that way. Some people view conceiving as a consequence, or repercussion to having sex.
Are you suggesting that any woman who decides she doesn’t want children RIGHT NOW refrain from sex? You do recognize the psychological, physical and sociological benefits that sex boasts, right? Women should not be held at the mercy of their biological function to carry children.
Wow. As a woman I feel so empowered by reading that statement. (sarcasm)
I always felt that my “biological functions” were pretty awesome. I also have felt pretty empowered by the fact that I am not beholden to the idea of behaving like an uncontrolled animal with my sexual impulses. And you are aware of all of the psychological, physical, and sociological risks and negative impacts of killing your own baby, right? ”
Empowering women indeed. Way to be pro-woman.
Kate..I mean Beth, why are you so angry at the little babies? What have they ever done to you? Why do you think that you are more important or worthy to be alive than a little one? You LIE, babies never choose to die!
Let’s be honest, you guys are only ~pro woman~ when they’re not being slutty little sluts, right?
Interesting how pro-choicers are always the ones using that terminology in the same sentence they think it’s impossible for anyone to have self control. That’s your ideology. Not ours. That’s what you promote and believe about women when you continue to purvey the idea that they absolutely cannot refrain from sex. We on the other hand believe in the strength of women and all that they are capable of.
Maria, maybe you don’t understand this but…. Beth doesn’t sound “angry at the little babies”… she sounds logical and rational. She’s accepting that sometimes people are going to have sex before they are ready to have children, contraceptives should be taught, and sometimes contraceptives fail. She doesn’t live in a fairy ultra conservative dream world like the majority of the crazed commenters on this site.
Plenty of pro-choice women have and LOVE babies. Don’t be so uneducated to assume otherwise, please.
Beth,
It’s true that birth control fails and condoms break. But that does not give women the right to kill the babies that they have created.
Not all of us are necessarily asking women to refrain from sex, just to be prepared to handle the consequences – babies – without committing murder.
You are aware that adoption is an option, right?
Kris, I’m so pro-woman that I don’t believe that women HAVE to refrain from sex just because they are biologically empowered enough to have the ability to carry a fetus. Sex is a natural and enjoyable part of life that everyone should be able to experience, not just those looking to populate the world with more white Christian babies.
There is nothing healthy about having sex with multiple sex partners or with a partner who has multiple sex partners. We all see and hear plenty of discussion about the benefits of sex – just watch TV or listen to the radio. A part of the discussion should also include the consequences: pregnancy and, if there are multiple partners, the diseases/infections – which we do NOT hear or see in the mainstream media. The consequences impact women more than men – it is a fact of biology – not misogyny or naivete. The people who do not want children should also fully understand the consequences of abortion – specifically what it does to the fetus (who, by the way, is the offspring of the woman – a truth that I did not consider 34 years ago when I made my choice). And the woman should have all the information about the risk of PID, future ectopic pregnancies and incompetent cervix leading to pre-term births in the event she plans to have children in the future.
I think if you lay out all of the facts and also look at the Theology of the Body, you would be pleasantly surprised to see how many people are able to abstain from sex until they find that special someone.
Maria, maybe you don’t understand this but…. Beth doesn’t sound “angry at the little babies”… she sounds logical and rational. She’s accepting that sometimes people are going to have sex before they are ready to have children, contraceptives should be taught, and sometimes contraceptives fail. She doesn’t live in a fairy ultra conservative dream world like the majority of the crazed commenters on this site.Plenty of pro-choice women have and LOVE babies. Don’t be so uneducated to assume otherwise, please.
Rational?! Being pregnant with a baby is a logical consequence of having sex. Killing that baby in your womb is NOT a sign that you love babies. I would hardly call that rational.
I’m pro-choice and I’m a mother. I love my children but I love having the option to not have any more if I choose not to.
I also love the idea that my daughter may grow up someday and have a full future without being burdened by an unwanted child before she’s ready.
You’re only offending and scaring people away when you assume that all pro-choice people hate babies.
Kris,
I wasn’t making an “empowering” statement. I was simply stating that just because someone has the capability (by biological design) to do something, doesn’t mean they wish to do it. In layman terms: Just because one HAS a uterus does not mean one wishes to UTILIZE it.
Yes, because any woman who engages in premarital sex is an “uncontrolled animal” incapable of controlling her sexual impulses. Ugh. Pro-woman, right?
As for the pleas to emotion, I call hogwash. A woman has the right to her own body and a fetus has the right to its body – Abortion merely enforces those rights. If we had a more delicate method of removing the fetus would that be more appealing to you? A fetus (Or baby, person, leprechaun) does NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to use a woman’s body without her continued consent. NO ONE on Earth has this right.
Kris, I’m so pro-woman that I don’t believe that women HAVE to refrain from sex just because they are biologically empowered enough to have the ability to carry a fetus.
Supporting a woman to destroy her own child is not pro-woman.
So you guys are “empowered”, but a human being just conceived is powerless. That’s bullying.
Also I wouldn’t say that “liberal feminism” is “indentured to abortion on demand” like to be a card-carrying feminist you HAVE to believe in it, even if you don’t want to. The reason so many liberal feminists believe in abortion access is because it MAKES SENSE. Reproductive rights are good for women. Pro-life misogynists are not.
You guys can keep pretending like you’re the true feminists but comparing women who have sex to uncontrolled animals tells us otherwise.
Libertybelle,
Adoption is an alternative to parenting, not to pregnancy. Many women feel disgusted, angry or violated when they discover that they’re pregnant. Not all women wish to subject themselves to the complications of pregnancy or childbirth.
Question: Should a pregnant woman be forced to endure a surgery that her fetus requires?
Barb,
Why is it YOUR business who someone decides to sleep with? Of COURSE sex impacts women more than men (I’ve mentioned biological design numerous times) but that doesn’t negate the fact that women have the right to decide WHEN and IF they have children. Having a uterus does NOT mean you wish to utilize it.
Holy cow, where the heck is Paladin and his graphic?
You know what’s bullying? Standing outside of abortion provider’s homes and private property to scream death threats. Yelling and berating women while they walk into a Planned Parenthood, no matter the reason they’re there. Or, to pull straight from the comments on jill stanek, something I saw yesterday about “taking action” and “closing down all the Planned Parenthood locations in Indiana without the government’s help”. That’s a threat. That’s bullying at it’s very worst.
I was simply stating that just because someone has the capability (by biological design) IE: (THINKING) to do something, doesn’t mean they wish to do it. In layman terms: Just because one HAS a uterus IE: (BRAIN) does not mean one wishes to UTILIZE it.
good point “Beth” just because you have a brain doesn’t mean you have to use it! Which is working so well for you and the rest of the trolls on here.
I’m loving all the pro-choice women commenting today!!
As I said, if you’re so “pro- woman”, what about the pre-born baby girl that would grow up to be a woman if you didn’t kill her in the womb?
“burdened by an unwanted child”…. Really? You’ve never heard of ADOPTION?
Some of us don’t consider a child a “burden”. There are LOTS of couples (and even single people) who would be GLAD to be “burdened” , derrr.
Yes, because any woman who engages in premarital sex is an “uncontrolled animal” incapable of controlling her sexual impulses. Ugh. Pro-woman, right?
You missed my point entirely. The statement that I made is what YOU imply about women when you make them sound as if they have no choice PRIOR to becoming pregnant. Their only choice at that point, to you, is to kill another human so that they may live as they wish.
Janet,
How is that bullying? Again, if we had a method of removing a fetus and transplanting it into an artificial womb, we’d be having a very different conversation. Our technology is limited and the fact that abortion terminates the pregnancy is inconsequential to the larger picture. Will there come a time when transplanting a fetus is a possibility? I hope so – but I doubt that would curb some of the more fanatical misogynists who would feel “offended” that a woman could want something more than motherhood.
derrr,
I deleted two of your comments. I suggest you go over the rules of commenting and try again or scamper away with the rest of your proabortion peeps. Unless you are all the same person. Let me go check.
As Beth said, pregnancy to someone that doesn’t want to be pregnant is MORE than a burden to women – it can be demoralizing, take them out of work or school that they need for a better future (for themselves and their future or existing children), and physically demanding and unsafe.
How about we worry about the women that are on this planet now instead of obsessing over fetuses that may turn into women that you’ll turn your backs on once they’re out of the womb?
So Beth, do you support abortion only in the case when the woman just desires to not be pregnant, but you do not support abortion in the case when the woman desires the fetus to be dead?
Carla, you deleted my comments because you disagreed with them. It’s fine, I get it. I’ve never seen a pro-life person’s comments deleted on here but there’s no bias, right?
They have the right to decide if they wish to consent to the complications of pregnancy and childbirth. They have the right to decide if they wish to spend the next nine months in and out of doctor’s offices, over the toilet throwing up, placing their jobs & schooling in jeopardy due to appointments and illnesses. They have the right to decide if they wish to share their body with a fetus, which will derive all of its nutrients from the woman – placing her iron, calcium, etc levels at risk. She has the right to decide if she wishes to host a fetus that will forever change how her body functions and looks.
Once a life has been conceived, that life should also be considered.
And personally, when you all claim how much you love children but say things like this about the time of CARRYING that baby, it’s obvious you don’t look at the process in a favorable light whatsoever.
I like how when the pro-life side runs out of arguments they just start with inflammatory personal attacks (see: the comment about pro-choice people choosing not to use their brains). Calling someone else stupid is the quickest way to look stupid yourselves, folks… didn’t you learn that in grade school?
I’m loving all the pro-choice women commenting today!!
Yeah, aren’t you happy we’re not like the folks at RH Delusion Check who delete every single comment that doesn’t fit their viewpoint? :)
Yes, because any woman who engages in premarital sex is an “uncontrolled animal” incapable of controlling her sexual impulses. Ugh. Pro-woman, right?
Interestingly enough, the pro-life side is usually NOT the side arguing how “unrealistic” it is to expect people to abstain from sex until marriage or at least until they’re ready to shoulder the responsibility for what might result from sex (i.e., another human life).
How about we worry about the women that are on this planet now instead of obsessing over fetuses that may turn into women that you’ll turn your backs on once they’re out of the womb?
Are you trying to say children in utero are not “on this planet?”
And by “turn your backs on once they’re out of the womb” do you mean we’ll fight for the lives of their future unborn children as well?
Kel, like I said before… I am a mother. I love my children and I loved both my pregnancies. However they were a both my choice so I was better prepared to deal with the annoyances that come from a pregnancy – and I’m a generally healthy woman who had easy pregnancies so if I had a litany of annoyances, I can’t imagine what it would do to a woman in different circumstances.
Don’t you have women in here that have had abortions and then turned pro-life? Do they hate babies? Did they when they decided to have an abortion? It’s incredibly offensive, short-sighted, and rude to assume that just because you’re pro-choice means you hate babies.
Yes, Kel, that’s exactly what I’m saying. Surely you will fight for the unborn children and their future unborn children and their future unborn children after that. It’s when the child is actually born that you stop caring.
Love is a choice. Murder is not.
Carla, I would love to know if Derr and Beth are one and the same. She sounds an awful lot like a blogger whose poison pen is all over the place with her vast “wisdom” for us half wits. Her real name is Kate Ranieri.
Beth,
That “pregnancy” is a human life and as long as it is inside the mother, that baby has the right to live. If the mother does not want to/can’t raise it, fine, give it up for adoption. But sex makes people, Beth, and women should know this.
I’m not so sure there are all that many women who feel “disgusted” and “violated” at being pregnant. If they do, maybe they have some deeper issues they need to look into.
Well I can’t speak for Beth but I’m not Kate Ranieri, nor am I commenting on this site under more than one username.
You guys really don’t believe that two women can be pro-choice, articulate, and commenting on your site at the same time, I guess? Clearly pro-woman.
Beth,
People like eating as well. People are always going to eat. Eating has many physical and psychological benefits.
That said, I DEMAND the ability to eat anything I want without the consequence of gaining weight. If I do gain weight, it should be surgically suctioned out whenever I want. I shouldn’t have to restrict my eating, or choose different foods to eat, or (god forbid!) EXERCISE to lose weight. That is all too cumbersome, annoying, irritating, and takes more time than I want to spend.
It violates my bodily autonomy when my body does what it’s supposed to when I eat and creates fat. My body should do exactly what I want it to do whenever I want it to do it, even if I choose to engage in the biological act that creates fat by eating copious amounts of unhealthy food.
So. Liposuction on demand without apology! Who’s with me?
Maybe they do have deeper issues they need to look into, sure. Shouldn’t we care for the women that have those deeper issues instead of pushing aside their psychological well-being for the ideology of a fetus? That’s the point of being a feminist, ladies. Caring for the mental and physical well being of the women that are already born.
Beth and derrr aren’t the same person, Maria, though I have no idea about Kate Ranieri.
It’s incredibly offensive, short-sighted, and rude to assume that just because you’re pro-choice means you hate babies.
Personally, I don’t assume pro-choice people hate babies. However, I believe it’s offensive and short-sighted of pro-choice people to disregard newly conceived human life on the basis of location or wantedness.
Derr, unfortunately, the number of trolls who occasionally appear on this site, some of whom appear under multiple usernames, have made the regular commenters unduly suspicious. Apparently many pro-choicers have nothing better to do than troll pro-life sites.
Derr,
All of your posts make you sound incredibly self-centered. Are you seriously insinuating that if your “litany of annoyances” (great word, btw) was worse, you would murder your child?
There’s this awesome thing called resiliency and it means that people can survive uncomfortable, bad situations. Promise. A pregnancy is just nine months. And then you can be done with it. Abortion is never an appropriate answer.
“That’s the point of being a feminist, ladies. Caring for the mental and physical well being of the women that are already born.”
And screw the females who are unborn, eh?
derrr, who are pregnancy resource centers for? Homeless shelters? Maternity homes?
How about ministries like World Vision? Compassion International?
How about drug rehab groups like Teen Challenge?
These are groups that most of us support through charitable giving.
If you’re implying that supporting certain government programs is the only way to support born children, you’re mistaken.
Ah, yes…the old “You only care about the unborn, not the born” argument.
Can’t you pro-aborts come up with something new? Something that actually makes sense?
Obviously, if we have it in our hearts to CARE, we care about EVERYONE. Born AND pre-born.
As for feminism, whatever! I take pride in the fact that I can carry and give birth to another human, which a man can NEVER do! Why take that away? That is the true way to be femine.
And btw if you don’t want to have babies then get your tubes tied. I know a girl who got pregnant @ 14 and guess what she actually graduated highschool so don’t give me any bs about how a baby ruins your life. Everyone has hard times but you must push through them and you must face the consequences for your own actions. Do parents not teach responsibility anymore?
Abstinence is possible you just have to be persistent and strong. Ever heard of Queen Elizabeth I, she never let a man take her power by having sex. Do you actually think that it’s empowering to let a man have sex with you one night and leave when he’s done? No that’s being used and women deserve better, but won’t get better until they stand up for themselves and say that they are worth more than a one night stand.
derr,
I deleted your comments because they violated commenting rules. I have deleted prolife comments as well here although I am sure you don’t really care that I have. If you are only here to incite then I will continue deleting. Up to you.
Please prove that we do not care about women or babies after they are born. I would like specifics, please. Tell me how I don’t care about women or children.
PS The first feminists were prolife. Learn it, live it, love it.
BethanyJ, thank you for once more proving my point about what it is to be “pro-woman” on this site. After all, a woman only has power when she is witholding sex from a man or pregnant, right? From Virgin Mary to breeder with nothing in between.
Most feminists believe that a woman’s power lies in her brain, not between her legs or in her womb.
Could someone answer the question that beth posed
If we could transplant fetuses into an artificial womb and then adopt them out, would that be a suitable alternative?
it might seem silly to some of you, but it is very important as some of us ( me) support abortion as a protection of women’s health. If the woman is not pregnant, her health is not altered. No one wants to kill anything, we just want to make sure women are not forced to use their body in a way they don’t want.
So would an artificial womb be okay with you? Is this something we could get behind, after all, everyone wins?
Most feminists believe that a woman’s power lies in her brain, not between her legs or in her womb.
Why not in the entirety of her person?
Pro Choice is SUCH a lie! the only choice they care about is abortion, that is why all the pro death people are so upset with us pro lifers..we offer hope and more “choices” than they ever could.
Kel, what do crisis pregnancy centers do when the baby is actually born? I know they make a lot of promises to get the woman to carry the child to term but are they there for midnight feedings up through the difficult teenage years?
Didn’t I hear about a volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center promising to empty her bank account so that a woman could afford to have another child and then not keep her word when the baby was born? Talk to me when you’re actually spending your time volunteering, donating money, and caring for children that have actually been born instead of just to the point when they can’t be aborted anymore.
Artificial wombs would end the intellectual abortion debate, not the emotional one. So the answer is yes (not an in all cases yes, but a somewhat general yes).
No one wants to kill anything eh, Shannon? Sorry to have to break this to you but abortion kills an innocent, human being.
Until the day when we can transplant a living, human being shall we continue the killing? Alrighty then.
Killing my child via abortion did not EMPOWER, HEAL, or HELP me at all. It did not SOLVE a thing.
Maria, let me remind you AGAIN… I have two children. They were a CHOICE. All the pro-choice people I’ve met believe in the idea of allowing women to have choices about their reproductive health and that includes keeping the child. Or not. Either way, it’s the woman’s choice.
Pro-death is such a silly term. Your incendiary remarks are getting very childish.
But the fact is, if the woman really does want to only not be pregnant and does not wish the fetus dead, then it would not be morally permissible to remove teh fetus from her knowing that it would cause the fetus’ death. The principle of double effect only applies when the gravity sustained to one party is equal or greater to the foreseen gravity of the other party. IN teh case of removal of teh fetus to not be pregnant, the gravity to the woman if she does not remove the fetus under NORMAL circumstances (pain, discomfort, inconveniences suffered, heartburn, morning sickness, etc.) are not nearly as grave as the consequences suffered by teh fetus if he is removed (death). Thus, it would not be morally permissible to remove the fetus in order to avoid being pregnant, even if the desire is not to kill the fetus (though I have to say, in many cases it does seem that the woman undergoing abortion does desire a dead fetus and not simply being pregnant, as is evidenced by the popular reasons for abortion such as “can’t afford a child” or “can’t imagine having an offspirng somewhere in teh world right now” (the adoption reason) etc.)
Kel, what do crisis pregnancy centers do when the baby is actually born? I know they make a lot of promises to get the woman to carry the child to term but are they there for midnight feedings up through the difficult teenage years?
So, you’re saying it is someone else’s responsibility to actually parent the child, other than the woman who gave birth? Ha! So, we just trick women into having kids and then they are completely and utterly lost and helpless little mommy waifs? What are you suggesting here? It sounds so incredibly empowering!! So, if I help a woman kill her child, THAT’s empowering her, but if I help her to learn about motherhood and to give birth to her child, that isn’t empowering her? And if I suggest adoption to her since she feels she cannot parent at this time, that’s tricking her, too, I suppose? (And I’ve heard that very thing from pro-choicers who are anti-adoption on this board.)
Didn’t I hear about a volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center promising to empty her bank account so that a woman could afford to have another child and then not keep her word when the baby was born?
I heard it was a sidewalk counselor, actually. But what’s your point? How dare we try to convince a woman not to kill her own child unless we’re willing to pay every expense for that child? Seriously? And you’re aware that there are many, many families who, in fact, ARE willing to pay every expense for that child by adopting him/her. But no, you want the mom to keep the child and yet have somebody else pay for every expense, plus deal with all parenting issues through the teen years? I am marveling at the audacity AND at the lack of confidence in women.
Talk to me when you’re actually spending your time volunteering, donating money, and caring for children that have actually been born instead of just to the point when they can’t be aborted anymore.
And you conveniently ignored all the charities I listed above, plus many more, which I and many other pro-lifers personally support.
Your argument is a straw man, and you know it.
I’ve never seen a pro-life person’s comments deleted on here but there’s no bias, right?
You haven’t seen them because they’ve been deleted! I am a prolifer who has had her inappropriate comments deleted on here. (Thanks mods!)
P.S. – Many pregnancy centers offer clothing sizes for children up to 8 years of age or older – all donated by those horrible people who don’t care about kids after they’re born, y’know.
Derr did you ever hear of personal responsibility? if a person is unable to take care of a baby, then there are other “choices” such as adoption. When you engage in sex there is always the possibility of pregnancy..if you are not ready for the responsibility of being a parent then DON’T have sex or practice natural family planning if you are married and feel you can’t handle another child. It really is very simple.
Why should the child have to pay the price? and a very high price indeed! Murder is something that you can never take back.
derrr,
Is a fetus alive? Is a fetus human? What does abortion do to a fetus? Do you think it matters? Why?
Thanks
I used to be mildly pro-choice because I believed the feminist propaganda that women could not be equal unless we had the “right” to abortion. I changed my tune over time because I thought the issue out and really let myself understand what abortion really is (denying someone the right to life!) and its consequences (non-replacement birth rates in the West, missing girls in Asia, fostering anti-child attitudes, denigration of the family, etc, etc). Not least of which changed my mind was the fact that my grandmother gave birth to my father when she was 19 back in 1941 when abortion was illegal. She did not feel she could raise him on her own so she let her friends adopt him. If this happened in the abortion-on-demand era we live in now the likelihood that my father would have been been aborted would have been much greater. My dad will be 70 years old in August and has lived a rich, full life and he is still going strong! See this is the reality of what abortion is: It denies LIFE!!! It would have denied not only my father’s life, but mine and my brother’s as well. I ask all “pro-choicers” out there to think long and hard about what the “choice” truly involves.
I don’t have time to respond to these comments anymore as my children just got home and it’s time for me to go be the loving, pro-choice parent that I am, but let me just say that I am positively DELIGHTED at the thought that all it will take is time for the anti-choice side to be wiped out almost completely. There’s a reason the liberal side is also called progressive and you just can’t stop progress, no matter how much you try.
Now I’m off. I think my children and I are going to take a field trip to Planned Parenthood to make a generous donation in Jill Stanek’s name.
“I don’t have time to respond to these comments anymore as my children just got home and it’s time for me to go be the loving, pro-choice parent that I am…”
Good thing for your children that you wanted them at some point during your pregnancies, otherwise they were fair game for slaughter. Very loving of you, yes indeed.
Derrr, please read the following:
http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2011/03/pro-lifers-love-fetus-but-they-dont.html
The blog author has repeatedly asked for proof that pro-lifers don’t care about babies after birth (an assumption she thoroughly debunks in the above article). She is still waiting for said proof. If you have it, can you comment on her post and provide it?
Derrr,
Please study The Roe Effect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_effect
Killing our own children via abortion will never, ever be considered “progress!”
Donate a gazillion dollars so then PP won’t need tax payers money!!(thanks for that Some Guy!)
There’s a reason the liberal side is also called progressive and you just can’t stop progress, no matter how much you try.
Yup. Sometimes progress is bad thing, as it was in legalizing abortion. That’s why prolifers are going to continue progressing until legalized abortion progresses right into the history books.
Now I’m off. I think my children and I are going to take a field trip to Planned Parenthood to make a generous donation in Jill Stanek’s name.
Isn’t that interesting. You had time to lob a snarky insult or two, but no time to respond to actual debate? Convenient.
Enjoy your trip to Planned Parenthood!
Kel this was your response to derr,
So, you’re saying it is someone else’s responsibility to actually parent the child, other than the woman who gave birth? Ha! So, we just trick women into having kids and then they are completely and utterly lost and helpless little mommy waifs? What are you suggesting here? It sounds so incredibly empowering!! So, if I help a woman kill her child, THAT’s empowering her, but if I help her to learn about motherhood and to give birth to her child, that isn’t empowering her? And if I suggest adoption to her since she feels she cannot parent at this time, that’s tricking her, too, I suppose? (And I’ve heard that very thing from pro-choicers who are anti-adoption on this board.)
Kel I understand you and others hear hate abortion, I am not trying to get you to concede anything about abortion, but I hope you get what she was trying to say here.
I think she was accusing you of glamorizing motherhood and adoption and how these are not simple choices fit for any women, like abortion. I think it’s easy for women to feel betrayed by people on either side. You push adoption and birth—the way some people not me, push for abortion and I think this is wrong in every scenario, because none of these choices are easy decisions. Adoption is something I could never ever do; I find the thought appalling which means it’s just not a choice for me.
I find there to be nothing intrinsically empowering about teaching a woman to be a mother. That assumes that is the highest and best position for a woman to be in, it’s not, the highest and best position to be in for a woman is one she chooses.
Likewise, there is nothing intrinsically empowering about abortion. Many women would feel horrible if they got an abortion, the same way they would feel horrible if they were made to be mothers.
Janet,How is that bullying?
I was wrong about that. Abortion is much worse. It’s legalized killing of an innocent human being by one much bigger and stronger.
“…the highest and best position to be in for a woman is one she chooses.”
Shannon,
Wow, there are days when I have so many decisions to make, I wish there was someone who could make them all for me. :) Choice is a “euphemism” for abortion. Google the History of Abortion and you’ll see how the pro-aborts played us to get Americans to embrace abortion as a “right”. They knew that if they continued to call themselves pro-abortion or something to that effect that their plan to normalize abortion wouldn’t catch on.
I think she was accusing you of glamorizing motherhood and adoption and how these are not simple choices fit for any women, like abortion.
I’ve never glamorized motherhood. But it is something to be cherished. Many things, like motherhood, are very scary at first, because they’re unfamiliar territory. None of these choices are simple, but two choices lead to life, and one does not.
I think it’s easy for women to feel betrayed by people on either side. You push adoption and birth—the way some people not me, push for abortion and I think this is wrong in every scenario, because none of these choices are easy decisions. Adoption is something I could never ever do; I find the thought appalling which means it’s just not a choice for me.
I’ve heard that quite often in my work with mothers experiencing unplanned pregnancies. “I could NEVER give my child up for adoption, so I’m gonna have an abortion!” Well, fine, but let’s be honest – in that case, it’s about you. Not the child. You don’t want to go through something difficult, even if it means someone else might have a chance at life. I get it. Believe me. But abortion isn’t as simple as you often present it.
I find there to be nothing intrinsically empowering about teaching a woman to be a mother. That assumes that is the highest and best position for a woman to be in, it’s not, the highest and best position to be in for a woman is one she chooses.
This is absolutely and totally false. Teaching a pregnant woman about how to parent or helping her through the adoption process IS a high calling. No one said it was always the best situation for a woman to be in. But how often in this life are we always in the ideal situation? We accept that this isn’t a perfect world, so why do we insist upon our plans always going exactly how we expect them to five years down the road? We teach women how to stand up against abusers (not an ideal world), how to better their resumes and work skills should they lose their jobs (not an ideal world) and we teach them how to parent or place a child if they experience an unplanned pregnancy (not an ideal world). But to kill an innocent party because he or she is in a less than ideal environment or situation is not the solution. It ignores one party’s right and need to exist and places another, stronger person’s right over that of the weaker party who has much more to lose.
Thank you for admitting, unlike most, that abortion is not intrinsically empowering. I would argue that it is never empowering, because by its very nature, it takes an innocent human life. Those women who would feel horrible about being mothers have choices other than the choice to kill.
I have two children. They were a CHOICE.
I have 2 children. Their lives were always more important than just being a choice that I opted for one day. My kids’ lives are more valuable than some wild hair I got to let them live. But you sound like such a caring and loving mom, oh yes you do. 9_9
Yes, take your little choices and march them down to Planned Parenthood like you would display what earrings you CHOSE to wear today. I’m glad my kids are better than a fashion statement.
And when derr’s children come to the realization that THEY could have just as easily been “the UN-chosen”?
“to make a generous donation in Jill Stanek’s name.”
Ah..what a MATURE individual derr is to be parenting children! (Sarcasm)
derrr says:
June 28, 2011 at 1:47 pm
“Kris, I’m so pro-woman that I don’t believe that women HAVE to refrain from sex just because they are biologically empowered enough to have the ability to carry a fetus. Sex is a natural and enjoyable part of life that everyone should be able to experience, not just those looking to populate the world with more white Christian babies.”
Interesting that progressives turn to a race issue. I’ve shared my story on here several times before about how quickly my pro-choice sisters were to condemn me for having abortion regret to a point I felt like something must be wrong with me to regret my abortion, that I tried to commit suicide twice. Pro-life people helped me with that. Now, I’m seeing pro-choice men/women bring race up. I am Hispanic and pregnant with my fourth child. Progressives accused me of using my children as anchor babies. My family left Spain in the late 1700s, lived in Mexico until the early 1800s, and moved to the US. I assume using the progressive logic displayed today, my family is composed of anchor babies despite the fact we’ve been here since the 1800s? Also, aren’t progressives for amnesty for illegal immigrants? And, pro-lifers are accused of only wanting to increase the “white Christian” population? I’ve seen volunteers at pregnancy centers helping women of all races. Experience has proven progressives are all over the board with all issues. I don’t see how there can be progress when progressives are on many different tangents on the same issues.
What does a woman do when the condom breaks and she catches an STD? She can’t just have a medical procedure done to remove it, and medication only goes so far. Therefore, abstaining from sex until you’re with the right person, the one you will spend the rest of your life with, is a highly responsible thing to do.
In order to avoid pregnancy, you could practice natural family planning, which has a higher success rate than any contraception. Get to know your cycles, know when you’re fertile and when you’re not. The newer versions even work for those with irregular cycles.
As for crisis pregnancy centers, they help with the born and unborn. They give or help mothers get medical care, housing, education, job training and getting a job, legal services, babysitting, and other social services. They offer clothing, baby items, food, counseling and support, pregnancy tests, STI tests, ultrasounds, and other things to mothers, expecting mothers, and all others in need. These centers include, but are not limited to, Heartbeat International, Birthright International, Care Net, Voice of Hope, The Heidi Group, and Culture of Life Family Services.
Women do not need abortion to be strong.
“When we consider that women are treated as property, it is degrading that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit.” – Elizabeth Cady Stanton, prominent feminist, one of the leading activists for woman’s rights
“Every woman knows that if she were free, she would never bear an unwished-for child, nor think of murdering one before its birth.” – Victoria Woodhull, first woman to run for president
“Abortion is the ultimate exploitation of women.” – Alice Paul, author of the 1923 Equal Rights Amendment
“When a man steals to satisfy hunger, we may safely conclude that there is something wrong in society – so when a woman destroys the life of her unborn child, it is an evidence that either by education or circumstances she has been greatly wronged.” – Mattie Brinkerhoff, writer for the feminist newspaper The Revolution
“Women deserve better than abortion.” – Serrin Foster, president of Feminists for Life
“A woman who experiences an unplanned pregnancy deserves to experience an unplanned joy.” – Patricia Heaton, actress
RCH – yeah, what’s with the “white, Christian babies” stuff?
I’ve seen volunteers at pregnancy centers helping women of all races. Experience has proven progressives are all over the board with all issues. I don’t see how there can be progress when progressives are on many different tangents on the same issues.
Almost ALL the clients I had at my CPC were minorities.
RCH – It’s because they’re using us for votes. They kiss our butts when they think we’re paying attention and then the second they think we’re out of earshot they let their true colors fly about how they think minorities are really so unfit to be productive, functioning members of society. That’s why they champion so many “Gimme gimme gimme” programs. They think we’re incapable on our own without the help of government, and think our populations should be controlled.
I’m 1/2 Mexican on my mother’s side, and we’ve been wise to these guys for quite some time.
Kel, thank you for saying that you think giving birth and adoption should be chosen because they are RIGHT and not EASY. I feel like a lot of pro-lifers make the claim that their philosophy is better for women and will make women feel better.
I think that really depends on the woman. Abortion is easier for some Women than childbirth birth is easier for some women than abortion. I think it’s most important for a woman to make a choice she can live with, an this choice depends on the woman
“Women will continue to have sex, as is their right, and should be encouraged to do so in a healthy manner.”
—
I’m tired of people misusing terms. Having sex is not a right. Claiming otherwise is pure nonsense.
“I don’t have time to respond to these comments anymore as my children just got home and it’s time for me to go be the loving, pro-choice parent that I am, but let me just say that I am positively DELIGHTED at the thought that all it will take is time for the anti-choice side to be wiped out almost completely.”
—
This is not true at all. If you’re going to mention time not being on one’s side, then I should point out that time isn’t on your side. Take the following study:
http://www.michelepolak.com/200fall10/Weekly_Schedule_files/Strickler.pdf
“With the exception of the period from 1982 to 1985, where older people are more opposed to abortion than younger people in Model 1, age is significant only in the full model, and is consistently positive in its association with abortion approval, indicating that after controlling for other factors, older people are more approving of abortion than younger people.”
Shannon,
Guess which “choice” kills an innocent human child?
You are comparing childbirth and abortion as though they are both valid choices to compare. One kills and one doesn’t.
I wouldn’t wish my abortion experience on my worst enemy and to say that abortion is EASY is refuted by the thousands of stories of those hurt by it.
Kel says:
Almost ALL the clients I had at my CPC were minorities.
Same here, Kel.
Now I’m off. I think my children and I are going to take a field trip to Planned Parenthood to make a generous donation in Jill Stanek’s name.
And I am very happy that your choices will be leaving Planned Parenthood today with their limbs attached to their bodies. Other people’s children though (who are the same age as your children once were) will not be so lucky.
So what Derr is actually saying to her children is, “You are not and never were valuable for who you are because you are you. The ONLY reason you are valuable-the only reason you are alive today-is because I WANTED YOU. You were just a choice.”
Nice. Ya yer an awesome mom!
In her book, ‘Unnatural Selection:Choosing Boys Over Girls and the Consequences of a World Full of Men’, feminazi Mara Hvistendahl, estimates in the last 30 years, over 163 million girls who should have been born, according to biological averages, have been aborted and the decision to abort was made by a woman, either the pregnant mother or the mother-in-law.
According to missy H, the consequences of this ‘gendercide’ has resulted in an ‘unnatural’ demographic proportion between males and females in the population, which in turn has resulted in violence. In Chinese populations where this ‘unnatural’ ratio has spiked, a crime wave has followed. In India the best predictor for violence and crime for any given area is not income level, but the ’unnatural’ male/female ratio.
She [Mara Hvistendahl ] believes that something must be done about the purposeful aborting of female babies or it could lead to “feminists’ worst nightmare: a ban on all abortions.”
It is telling that Ms. Hvistendahl identifies a ban on abortion—and not the killing of tens of millions of unborn girls—as the “worst nightmare” of feminism.
[feminista: think of a man and take away reason and accountability.]
[God help us if these loons every figure out a way to control the weather.]
Beth, and derrr, and Jane…..pro “choice” feminism is based on a lie. Women don’t need an elective surgical procedure to be equal. WE ARE ALREADY EQUAL. Killing our babies is not a right; it is not okay. Instead of wasting your time dehumanizing baby humans, and speaking in sound bites, maybe you should help the pro-life movement eliminate the perceived “need” for abortion. Abortion is not a good thing. It is the only surgical procedure in which the sole purpose is to kill a human being.
Also, do your research before you start with the name-calling and strawman arguments. The pro-life movement recognizes that the rights of women and the rights of our unborn children are NOT diametrically opposed; they are intrinsically linked. Not all of us are right-wingers and not all of us are religious. I am agnostic, a secular pro-lifer who is a vocal advocate of gay rights. Open your eyes. Abortion kills. We should all be appalled and disgusted by abortion….because it is appalling and disgusting.
Speaking of Mara Hvisvendahl, has anyone noticed how she has been degrading pro-lifers in some interviews? Here is part of her interview in Macleans.CA:
As I was preparing this book I was struck by how U.S. abortion politics had come to bear on the issue, and it’s a loaded issue for both the right and the left. I do believe in a woman’s right to terminate a pregnancy. And while anti-abortion groups in the U.S. are pushing through bans on sex-selective abortions, their goal is not to increase the number of women in the world, per se, but rather to establish a precedent for the fetus being a life. So it’s a difficult thing to talk about. The right wing uses words like gendercide and feticide, and the other extreme is people on the left who don’t use the word abortion at all, when what’s happening is abortion.
Is this woman deluded or what?
@ Beth – I wasn’t telling people who they can have sex with – I was saying that there are many negative consequences to having multiple partners. If you didn’t know that – then please do look at the CDC website under STD. This is America – not Western Europe. Our young adults are infected with sexually transmitted diseases and they are spreading them among themselves like the common cold – and it is so unnecessary. Those in my (baby boomer) generation who found faithful spouses (and are likewise faithful) are STD free.
@ derr – Ask your children if they feel loved by you. Children instinctively can sense whether they are loved. When children are treated as a choice, they know that there are conditions placed on the love and that it can easily be withdrawn. If your Planned Parenthood performs abortions, your children cannot feel comfortable being there; weak and vulnerable people don’t.
I grew up in a family of seven children in an 1100 sq ft house (1 1/2 baths) – each was unplanned but loved.
“The pro-life movement recognizes that the rights of women and the rights of our unborn children are NOT diametrically opposed.”
Well that’s a load of touchy-feely fluff. As it currently stands, the unborn aren’t rights-bearing citizens. But for the sake of the argument, say they were–then in the situation of an unwanted pregnancy, heck yeah there would be two sets of rights in contention.
“You are not and never were valuable for who you are because you are you. The ONLY reason you are valuable-the only reason you are alive today-is because I WANTED YOU. You were just a choice.”
Yeah, and for many kids the alternative to that quote is, “Well you were sort of a mistake, and I was ambivalent but had you anyway and now you’re unfortunately getting dragged through the messes I didn’t have time to clean up before you got here.” I mean seriously, you have all got to stop perpetuating the BS myth that every woman who chooses motherhood will just looooove it. You promote adoption as an alternative to a woman not wanting to parent, but what about those who try–and fail spectacularly? The only thing you have to say is, “Oh better abused/in foster care hell/forgotten” than aborted.
“It is telling that Ms. Hvistendahl identifies a ban on abortion—and not the killing of tens of millions of unborn girls—as the “worst nightmare” of feminism.”
Yeah because anti-choicers, predictably, will view abortion bans as the primary solution to the gender imbalance. Unwanted unborn girls will still be unwanted at birth, and either left to die in the countryside or fated to live a life of near-servitude to the men in her lives. Abortion does not cause women to be devalued in these countries; sex-selective abortion is a symptom of women’s devaluation. Tell me yor broken, how will banning abortion change the fact that a girl in rural India has a bride price stamped to her head when she’s born? Or that her family doesn’t have the money or interest to educate her?
derr,
I’m the Director of Fund Development for Good Counsel Homes, a group of maternity homes where we have the mother stay with us throughout the pregnancy, and for a year afterward. We educate them, help them get their GED’s, give them rigorous life skills training seminars and parenting classes, job skills, etc. Then, when they transition to independent living, we place them in a two-year follow-up program with twice-monthly visits. Read the rest here:
http://gerardnadal.com/2011/06/05/disproving-one-of-abortions-greatest-lies-the-good-counsel-solution/
Many maternity homes have sent their people to copy our model over the past 25 years. So, please watch the slurs. You don’t know what you’re talking about, and you sound really, really foolish.
Megan, Good to see you back and contributing to what must now be over 1,000 hours spent here defending the right to tear babies apart, piece-by-piece. Why do you love this so much? I can understand pro-lifers loving babies, as that’s natural. They’re actually cute when they’re all in one piece.
But you really get off on the thought of murdering babies, on wholesale slaughter. Seriously, what sort of darkness drives that? You know that God is waiting to forgive you, so why not surrender to that love and mercy? Why not reclaim your humanity and decency?
Carla will show you the way home, and all in private correspondence, not on the threads.
Really, Megan. Give it a rest already. You’re starting to look really, really twisted.
Come home.
“ Tell me yor broken, how will banning abortion change the fact that a girl in rural India has a bride price stamped to her head when she’s born? Or that her family doesn’t have the money or interest to educate her?”
Once upon a time, feminism sought to redress these societal wrongs. But then the girls got tired. (Protesting is a draining business, as is shifting cultural norms thousands of years old toward a truly enlightened direction). They needed to get on with being professionals and not messiahs, so they decided it was just easier to kill the ones you can’t help. This statement of yours is the full flower of radical feminism, the philosophical fruit of the feminist elders in their disciples.
You actually make male chauvinists look enlightened, Megan. They might have been just as intellectually bankrupt as you and your radical feminist sisters, but at least they weren’t blood-thirsty killers.
If this is all you have to show for your years in college, get a refund. You were robbed.
Come home.
“Yeah, and for many kids the alternative to that quote is, “Well you were sort of a mistake, and I was ambivalent but had you anyway and now you’re unfortunately getting dragged through the messes I didn’t have time to clean up before you got here.” I mean seriously, you have all got to stop perpetuating the BS myth that every woman who chooses motherhood will just looooove it. You promote adoption as an alternative to a woman not wanting to parent, but what about those who try–and fail spectacularly? The only thing you have to say is, “Oh better abused/in foster care hell/forgotten” than aborted.”
Megan, so what you are saying is that all the kids in the foster care system and that are going through abuse should have been aborted? Better off dead as you imply eh? Funny enough research shows that abortion has increased rates of child abuse and other violent acts. Not to mention, after the first 10 years abortion was legalized in America, child abuse increased by 500%. Please explain to me those figures and how the idea of abortion has helped to lower them. And btw, a study conducted by Edward Lenoski of the University of California concluded that 90% of child abuse cases were from PLANNED pregnancies. So once again, please tell me how having abortions will decrease cases of child abuse and lower the amount of children in the foster care system.
Oh and I almost forgot, I don’t think that there was anyone here that perpetuated the “myth” that everyone just loooooves motherhood or will for that matter. I personally do but then there are those days where I just need a break. Nothing is guaranteed whether you abort or decide to be a mother. Me as a prolifer will never try to tell someone that motherhood is easy. It wasn’t when I had one child and it still isn’t with 6. And I imagine if I decided not to abort one of my children being a mother of 7 would still be hard but I would rather deal with the difficulty that comes with being a mother of 7 then to have had my abortion. I wonder if I went to a prochoicer and told them about the grief I have over my aborted child if they would be as welcoming and supportive in healing that sadness as they would be in supporting my abortion.
I’ll try not to fill my post with accusations of being a baby killer and the like, since it really doesn’t do much other than annoy the one to whom the accusations are being levied against ;)
“Well that’s a load of touchy-feely fluff. As it currently stands, the unborn aren’t rights-bearing citizens. But for the sake of the argument, say they were–then in the situation of an unwanted pregnancy, heck yeah there would be two sets of rights in contention.”
So you mean I can do whatever I want to a European tourist because they’re not U.S. citizens? That’s a rhetorical question, of course. What does citizenship have to do with anything here? That’s another rhetorical question, by the way.
“Yeah, and for many kids the alternative to that quote is, “Well you were sort of a mistake, and I was ambivalent but had you anyway and now you’re unfortunately getting dragged through the messes I didn’t have time to clean up before you got here.””
Which, you know, I think would be better to hear than “I should have aborted you!”. Or perhaps it would have been better to simply have been aborted so you wouldn’t have to worry about hearing anything, right?
“I mean seriously, you have all got to stop perpetuating the BS myth that every woman who chooses motherhood will just looooove it.”
I’m pretty sure no one has ever said the above. Straw men are bad.
“You promote adoption as an alternative to a woman not wanting to parent, but what about those who try–and fail spectacularly? The only thing you have to say is, “Oh better abused/in foster care hell/forgotten” than aborted.”
What about them? If we’re going to play this game, then I have a question for you. What about people who planned their children and failed spectacularly? Is your argument that they should have aborted? Would you mock the, as you put it, “Oh, better abused/in foster care hell/forgotten than aborted” argument then?
“Yeah because anti-choicers, predictably, will view abortion bans as the primary solution to the gender imbalance. Unwanted unborn girls will still be unwanted at birth, and either left to die in the countryside or fated to live a life of near-servitude to the men in her lives.”
(1) If us anti-choicers, predictably, will view abortion bans as the primary solution to the gender imbalance, it’s because abortion bans are the primary solution to the gender imbalance. Here’s a (rhetorical) question for you. Why did the invention of ultrasound in the 1980’s lead to a greater gender imbalance than there was prior? Since you apparently think that abortion had little if anything to do with that, then what do you attribute the imbalance to? The only thing, which I can see, would be infanticide, but that would require us believe that individuals were more willing to engage in infanticide post-1980’s than pre-1980’s. Personally, I can’t see why that is true. Why would a woman wait to give birth to a child and kill it shortly after it’s born or abandon it when she could just have an abortion?
(For the above, abortion is not being deemed as infanticide.)
(2) I’m confused. Are you saying that supporting a ban on abortion is also supporting a woman living a life of near-servitude to the men in her life? If not, then you’re going to have to clarify what you mean. The only other meaning I could think you’re getting at would be that it’s better to be killed in utero than it is to live a life of near servitude, but I’m not sure you would argue that. Though I have been wrong in the past about this kind of stuff.
“Abortion does not cause women to be devalued in these countries; sex-selective abortion is a symptom of women’s devaluation.”
Generally speaking, liberal feminists argue that a woman should be able to abort for any reason she wants (i.e., “on demand and without apology). Any, by definition, would also include aborting because the woman in question doesn’t like the sex of her baby. If, as you asserti, sex-selective abortions are a symptom of women’s devaluation and liberal feminists argue that a woman should be able to abort because she doesn’t like the sex of her baby, then liberal feminists are either devaluing women or they’re promoting a culture which devalues women. QED.
Try as you might, this is a logical roadblock which you cannot get past. It is impossible to try to argue that women have value while simultaneously arguing that it’s acceptable to abort on the basis that the unborn child is a female. The two notions work against each other.
“Tell me yor broken, how will banning abortion change the fact that a girl in rural India has a bride price stamped to her head when she’s born?”
It won’t. Banning abortion will simply make it unnaceptable to abort a child on the basis of its sex. The bride thing is a seperate issue and should be dealt with seperately.
“Or that her family doesn’t have the money or interest to educate her?”
It won’t. But the question is why does that matter? Again, it’s a seperate issue.
On a slightly related note, I would like to channel my inner pro-choicer for a moment. Why does it matter to you why a woman aborts? I thought the decision to abort was no one else’s decision but the woman’s (and her doctor’s)? Unless you’re either the woman or her doctor, then you should take your own advice and butt out of people’s personal lives. If a woman wants to abort because she doesn’t like the sex of her baby or just doesn’t want to have a female child, then so be it. It doesn’t affect you in any way. Abortion is a deeply personal decision and a woman has the right to decide what’s best for her and her family’s lives.
…That is how the argument goes, isn’t it? Why does it seemingly not apply in this instance? You can say it does, but the simple fact that you do not shrug your shoulders and simply recite the “choice” mantra as you would if, say, we were talking about most any other type of abortion leads me to strongly believe that you’re picking and choosing when and where “choice” applies.
The rationale for abortion is losing. :>) !
Megan, our unborn children are persons. Logic and science tell us that. It is easier to kill someone if you dehumanize them….and that was the pro-abortion movement does to babies all the time. There is NOTHING to prove that the child is NOT A PERSON….the child IS a person, and always will be a person. We don’t magically “become” persons. We ARE persons. Just like women don’t need a surgical procedure to magically become “equal.”
So, it stands to reason that the unborn, being persons, have the right to exist, which is not diametrically opposed to the woman’s right to education/employment, etc. We don’t need to kill our babies to be successful. And any “success” which is the product of a baby’s horrific death isn’t success at all. It’s a lie. We are not entitled to everything we want whenever we want it. We are CERTAINLY not entitled–EVER–to kill our children because their existence is an inconvenience to our “plans.” That is not justice. That is nonsense, that is chaos.
Gerald,
You asked Megan essentially why she is on this site. You are here because you believe you are saving lives, why does the other side have so much invested?
Could I answer this question instead? I often like to read the arguments of people with whom I disagree to understand where they are coming from.
I am 19 from a liberal part of the country, and we are in awe, like you are, in awe that another side exists. Abortion and gay marriage are the non-negotiable to millions of Americans. This is pretty shocking to us as abortion and gay marriage are ‘who cares’ issues to us—criticize all you want I am just explaining a mindset.
So I am here for two reasons, 1 because I think you are doing something right and one because you are doing something wrong.
1. You have a goal that seeks to strengthen families and introduce reverence back into sex. I think these are great goals. People have an average of 9 sex partners in their lifetime (I think this estimate is lower than the reality) and this number is objectively dangerous, for reasons of public health and safety.
2. I am also here because I think your movement seeks to put women back in their place. I think your views are rooted in the belief that women have an obligation to society to repopulate it and nurture it, and I cant subscribe to an ideology that says this is women’s ‘duty’. I read a book in a women’s studies class entitled the price of motherhood, which details how mothers are overworked and under appreciated and underpaid, that they are the backbone of society, yet they receive little recognition. The conclusion of this book was not that women shouldn’t be mothers—but that we must elevate motherhood and give it prestige to attract people to it once again. We must d what all companies do and offer a better package to mothers to encourage them to choose it over other fields (as almost everyone has conceded that it is the most important job in the world…but I know many of you don’t believe this. You believe that women should do the most thankless job in the world because that is what women do….
Shannon, first, his name is “Gerard,” not “Gerald.”
Second, the pro-“choice” movement needs to stop saying the pro-life movement wants to “put women back in their place.” What the heck is that about? Women are mighty—we are powerful! We don’t have to kill our children in order to compete with men. Abortion is BACKWARDS. It is violent, it is bloody, and it kills. It is destructive. It is not life-affirming, it is not liberating.
I am an otherwise “liberal” and non-religious pro-life woman. I am educated, I’m a rape survivor, I’ve experienced two crisis pregnancies, and I am pro-birth-control. Killing our babies is not an answer. It never was, and it never will be. Abortion is a disgrace. We are better than that. We should demand more than that. Enough with the fear-mongering and hysteria and sound bites and excuses. We all need to look at what abortion REALLY IS, what it REALLY DOES, and WHY women would consider it. We need to eliminate the so-called “need” for abortion. Abortion is an act of desperation, not liberation.
We must do what all companies do and offer a better package to mothers to encourage them to choose it over other fields
Shannon, do we have to choose between the two? I don’t think we do. I personally believe women can do anything they set their minds to do. If they want to be mothers with careers, or mothers without outside careers, or if they don’t want to be mothers at all – that should be their choice.
I am not opposed to any woman being anything she wants to be. But I am opposed to her destroying her already-conceived children in order to do it. We cannot further ourselves as women on the backs of our dead children. By doing so, we become the oppressors. Is that what we really want??
Kel….I couldn’t have said it better myself. Even if I aborted my child and became the biggest pop star in the world—-it would still amount to a horrific sacrifice. What is important? Life. Life is important. Period. We are not to say who lives and who dies, and we should be sickened by the thought of killing our own babies.
but that we must elevate motherhood and give it prestige to attract people to it once again.
Abortion is what devalued motherhood in the first place!!
I am also here because I think your movement seeks to put women back in their place
Then you haven’t been paying attention, or have completely fabricated our position. We’re seeking to save the lives of thousands of children who are killed by abortion every day. Please address our REAL position next time. Try again.
Yes, Praxedes! ABSOLUTELY! Hear, hear! *fist bump*
Marylee,
I must say I am always in awe of how you explain the importance and sanctity of life. I am a religious person and I am sure we have some opposing views but I must say you are very enlightening in your views and how you think. I hope you don’t mind but I have taken some of your phrases and used them against other pro-aborts. I simply can’t say things the way you do. Thank you for your wonderful insight and poetic fight for life.
Thank you, Vanessa! That really means a lot. I appreciate it. And no, we’re not always going to agree, but abortion…that’s the biggie. That’s the worst thing in the history of the world, and I’m glad we agree on that. Hooray!
Oh Gerard, angry hyperbole doesn’t help your cause at all. Being pro-choice has nothing to do with “hating babies” (seriously? how absurd will your claims get?), and everything to do with preventing public intrusion into one of the most intimate, significant decisions a woman can make.
Oh, and since I don’t have tv, this blog gives me my drama fix. The delusions, jeremiads, doomsday prophesying, the unabashed self-righteousness…better than anything on at prime time.
“but abortion…that’s the biggie. That’s the worst thing in the history of the world”
LOL
The delusions, jeremiads, doomsday prophesying, the unabashed self-righteousness…better than anything on at prime time.
If thinking your life is more important than someone else’s, to the point of paying to have them killed, isn’t delusional and self-righteous, then nothing is.
I am going to borrow a few words from a wise gentlemen to end this: Get well soon, Megan.
Megan, I’m glad you find abortion so humorous. Yeah, it’s so funny when a baby has his legs torn off and his head bashed in, and then he’s placed in a tray to make sure all the pieces are there. Abortion IS the biggie. It is the worst thing that ever existed. The killing of babies? FOR MONEY?! Tell me what is worse. Go on. I’ll wait. And try not to resort to solipsistic, relativist arguments. You are so full of hate; it makes me sad for you.
It’s pro-aborts like you who are full of histrionics and drama. There is no “war on women.” We don’t want to enslave women or destroy our own rights. The pro-abort movement is based on lies and obfuscation and fear-mongering. We’re just trying to help people not kill their children.
I have’t used the emotionally-charged term “war,” because it doesn’t accurately capture what your side’s all about. Intention doesn’t matter–the result does. You say you don’t want to devalue women, and I believe that, but what are you doing when you seek to determine when a woman must relinquish control of how her internal organs are used? Also, I understand that you think a fetus has rights. But if that’s the case, then a woman loses some of her rights when she’s pregnant, unless you don’t consider physical sovereignty to be a human right.
I’m not sure what the “worst thing in the history of the world” is, but I was pretty horrified when I first saw pictures from Cighid. When women lose their rights, everybody loses.
There are only two real choices here. Whether you choose to deliver your child alive, or, dead.
what are you doing when you say when a woman must relinquish control of how her internal organs are used
Nobody’s taking control of internal organs here, Megan. If that isn’t a delusional statement, I don’t know what is. A biologist who informs me of the purpose and function of my liver in my body isn’t denying me rights if I want my liver to photosynthesize and it won’t. And trying to pry my liver out of my body and attempt to use it to do something other than its purpose will kill me, making that action wrong. Get it yet? Also, if you would’ve just given your kid a little more time, you would’ve found yourself completely intact after birth, and that child would still be alive today-no “physical sovereignty” over your body would be lost. We promise. Most of us here have been through the process many times. Trust us. You’ll still have every bit of your body you had before becoming pregnant afterward.
Odd…you’re horrified by pictures of dying children a world away, yet paid someone to destroy your own child.
Talk about warped.
Megan, our unborn are not invaders or parasites, and they do not hold us hostage. We should be mindful of our choices, always. I am pro-sex and pro-birth control. But NOBODY has supreme physical autonomy. That is quite a warped idea. I have no right to kill my child because his mere existence inconveniences my “plans.” The right to LIVE trumps all rights, because without it, we have nothing. When I was pregnant, my life was never more important than my unborn baby daughter’s life. I respected her as a separate person, from the get-go, when I saw her heart beating, flickering like a light on the ultrasound. We need to LOVE our babies, at all stages. That shows self-respect as well. Pregnancy is not a flaw that must be corrected, and it is not a right. It is a wonder, and a privilege. Abortion degrades women, it degrades pregnancy, it degrades our children. It kills. Yes, abortion is the worst thing humankind has ever done.
The right to LIVE trumps all rights, because without it, we have nothing.
What a beautiful statement and it so highlights a concept pro-aborts never seem to grasp.
Mary lee thank you for your comments
As you had articulated, Wheter or not the other side means to their side ultimately wants to deny (pregnant women the abity to make decisions about their health and the best thing for THEIR body.
I only know of one girl who had an abortion. She was a dear friend of mine who after she became pregnant, we looked into a of her options, yes even looking into what abortion really was. Pregnancy crises centers told her what abortion would do to her baby but no one mentioned what pregnancy would do to her. She got sick all day and night , she described to me t felt like the stomach flu— and it horrible pain. We were only 18 at the time. We then began to look more into the ordeal of pregnancy, what it would do to my friend how it would permanently change her body, the extreme pain it would cause her and honestly how the vagina tears and is often cut by doctors in order to get the baby out. The experience transformed her views. While it would be “nice” of her to sacrifice these things for anther, it could not be required. She ultimately made the decision to put her body first and her health first, as as she did not want to be sick anymore and end the pregnancy.
I don’t understand how she could be judged for this, how a kind person could say to another suck it up, your pain is of no consequence what this pregnancy will do to your body doesnt matter
How does a kind person think that what an abortion does to an unborn human body doesn’t matter?
Uh, vagina cuts heal. Aborted babies don’t.
Shannon, just out of curiosity – how old are you now, and do you have any children?
Pregnancy crises centers told her what abortion would do to her baby but no one mentioned what pregnancy would do to her. She got sick all day and night , she described to me t felt like the stomach flu
This is often called “morning sickness” but in truth, it’s not just in the morning. And typically, it doesn’t last the entire pregnancy. For some, it does, but this is incredibly rare.
We then began to look more into the ordeal of pregnancy, what it would do to my friend how it would permanently change her body, the extreme pain it would cause her and honestly how the vagina tears and is often cut by doctors in order to get the baby out.
Minor vaginal tears often heal themselves. If the perineum (the outer part of the vagina) needs to be cut, this is stitched up and heals usually without incident. You might be sore for about a week or so, but it’s really not a huge deal. I’ve had 3 kids and this is really nothing to be afraid of.
Pregnancy and childbirth do permanently change one’s body. But so does aging. So do a lot of things.
While it would be “nice” of her to sacrifice these things for anther, it could not be required. She ultimately made the decision to put her body first and her health first, as as she did not want to be sick anymore and end the pregnancy.
So, instead of dealing with the temporary condition of pregnancy as best she could, she instead decided to end someone else’s life. Unless she had hyperemesis gravidarum, there was really nothing at risk here. Pregnancy is a normal, healthy condition, not one of illness. You and your friend would have done well to realize this.
Kel,
I am almost 20 this happened about a year and a half ago, thank goodness no i don’t have any children.
You said
“Minor vaginal tears often heal themselves. If the perineum (the outer part of the vagina) needs to be cut, this is stitched up and heals usually without incident. You might be sore for about a week or so, but it’s really not a huge deal”
I respect that having a doctor cut your vagina isnt a big deal to you, but it is to me, and was to my friend. If we could end world hunger and ‘all i would have to do’ is let a doctor cut open my ,vag i would indeed let the billion of people stave. What you call ‘no big deal’ i call genital mutilation. Do you think it would fly if we did this to men, cut open their penises so they bled and couldnt have sex, and said get over it, it will heal. I think calling things like genital cuts and morning sickness no ig deal is why people think you guys are mysogynists
I am all for encouraging people to make healthy sexual decisions and taking with their partner before they have sex how to handle a pregnancy/baby..but i find it horribly oppressive to assume that when a woman has sex or gets raped she is consenting to weight gain up to 60 pounds, consenting to become sick for weeks or months, consenting to let a doctor CUT OPEN her vagina, and consenting to post-partum depression…at the very least, i mean c’mon.
I respect that having a doctor cut your vagina isnt a big deal to you, but it is to me, and was to my friend. If we could end world hunger and ‘all i would have to do’ is let a doctor cut open my ,vag i would indeed let the billion of people stave. What you call ‘no big deal’ i call genital mutilation. Do you think it would fly if we did this to men, cut open their penises so they bled and couldnt have sex, and said get over it, it will heal. I think calling things like genital cuts and morning sickness no ig deal is why people think you guys are mysogynists
An episiotomy is a very small incision made IF the perineum does not stretch enough to allow the baby’s head to exit the vaginal canal. It’s more common in first pregnancies or with very large babies. My tears/episiotomies have always been completely healed 4 to 6 weeks after delivery, if that long. So… it’s not like you can’t have sex or that it somehow changes the sensations during sex. Episiotomies are also typically done ONLY if medically necessary, and they’re done less and less often here in the U.S. I have 3 kids, so I can speak from experience here. It’s quite obvious you didn’t do enough research into childbirth to learn that the perineum STRETCHES to allow a baby to exit. If an episiotomy needs to happen, it’s a small incision on the very outside edge of the perineum, not “cutting open” your vagina.
If someone gains 60 pounds during pregnancy (and I did with my 2nd), it’s not typically because of the baby – it’s because someone has been taking the “eating for two” mentality a tad too far. :D Typical pregnancy weight gain is 25-35 pounds, about half of which comes off once the baby is delivered and extra (no longer necessary) fluids are shed from the body. The day I went home from the hospital after my deliveries, I had typically already lost about 15 pounds or more of what I’d gained.
Postpartum depression? Not in 80% of deliveries. I had no issues with it whatsoever.
Shannon, I asked your age and whether you had any children because your view of childbirth is juvenile, irrational, and hysterical.
OH NOES! No sex and you might gain weight? That’s like, the worst thing EVAR in the whole world, and totally worth killing your child over. Not. 9_9
And people wonder why pro-choicers are often viewed as shallow…
And people wonder why pro-choicers are often viewed as shallow…
In my personal experience “pro-choicers” tend to be the most shallow, materialistic, and elitist among us.
Has anybody else ever observed this???
Shannon, are you serious? You are that shallow and cold hearted to say that you would let billions starve because of a little incision? I doubt you would ever be asked to make such a sacrifice but to boldly say it out loud and not think what you sound like does show your immaturity. I had my first kid at 18. I got pregnant at 17 and had him at 18 and gained 25 lbs and didn’t have an episiotomy. And same thing goes for the other 5 children that followed. It is people like you and your friend that make women look weak and self serving. You have made the choice of abortion become about our appearances and complete selfishness. Have you re-read your statements and realized the callous nature in which you write them? Were you and your friend that uneducated that even as 18 yr olds you didn’t know that weight gain may be a possible factor in a pregnancy? I mean you obviously knew what sex was. Funny enough I WAS scared about the stretch marks and the pancake boobs. I lost a cup size and did not get one stretch mark and luckily enough I still don’t. But I could careless because my vanity does not triumph over the lives of my children. It’s never a right choice to have an abortion but at least if you are going to have one don’t make it on the premise that it’s about your looks!
Shannon…did you know that the vagina is designed to heal easily and fully if it tears or has been cut? The vagina was designed with child birth in mind, whether you believe it was designed by God or millions of years of evolution. When I was pregnant and learning about all the new things my body was going through, I was amazed at how well designed for pregnancy the female body was. As for this kind of thing happening to men, well they don’t have babies so their bodies aren’t designed to deal with it. Ours are. It’s a whole different ball game. You’re not supposed to have sex for 6 weeks after you give birth anyway because you just pushed a BABY through your birth canal. Any tear would be healed in that time—unless it was severe and a tear that severe is incredibly rare, especially among 18-year olds. It hardly would prevent you from having sex ever again. And trust me, after you’ve just had a baby, you’ll be far too busy with taking care of him or her for the first couple months to worry about sex. Birth is a scary thing for someone who has never experienced it, but it’s no reason to have an abortion.
The “ordeal” of pregnancy you described is pretty common knowledge. If the people at the CPC didn’t tell you, it was most likely because they assumed 18-year-olds would have known. When I was pregnant at 18, I know none of those things were a surprise to me. I was confused the first time I read your comment because I didn’t understand why all of that was so shocking to you and your friend. I agree that it’s important to encourage people to make healthy sexual decisions. I guess I understand that to mean understanding that not only is it possible that you’ll get pregnant, but also what pregnancy is and all that it entails. The healthiest, most responsible and most mature sexual decision is only to have sex when you’re ready to deal with all of the consequences of sex.
“Postpartum depression? Not in 80% of deliveries. I had no issues with it whatsoever. Shannon, I asked your age and whether you had any children because your view of childbirth is juvenile, irrational, and hysterical.”
Maybe you didn’t experience postpartum depression because you wanted to be pregnant. Ban abortion, Kel. Get it banned. Then do a study assessing the mental health of women who are compelled, legally, to continue unwanted pregnancies. See if they come out of that experience only with a few “temporary scars.” But hey, even if I felt like forced continuation of pregnancy were akin to rape, it would just be collateral damage in the crusade to liberate fetuses from their evil selfish mommies.
I’m not sure where you got this notion from, but nobody–NOBODY–has an absolute “right to life.” That right is curtailed when a person encroaches on somebody else’s fundamental rights. It is a PRIVILEGE to exist in a woman’s body for nine months, not an entitlement.
About selfishness
If someone told me the fate of the world was in my hands and all I had to do what be tortured or be disfigured or any of that nonsense… I would politely decline.
What does that mean, it means I’m not a person of sacrifice, big deal. If you want to judge that Judge that But I’m pretty sure we all agree that there shouldn’t be a law forcing people to be as selfless as they possibly could all the time.
You all must be wonderful people to be around. Perfect in every way. I’m assuming you never buy ice cream or make up or go on vacation, because If buy these things knowing full your money could be used to buy medicine or water for others you are putting your own frivolous needs above others right to life. You are saying ‘myice cream is more important than your life’ buy I imagine that you do this all the time…because your just freaking living your life and that’s important too.
I think I get the abortion on demand slogan above. After reading your comments above I get the “without apology”
The fact that you think depression and having torn genitals aren’t a big deal and the fact that you think a woman would be concerned about these things is ‘selfish blows my mind. Is a person who doesn’t want to give her kidney away selfish or is she prudent, rightfully scared for the effect a surgery would have on HER LIFE.
What if a baby requires a c-section and will die without it. But the woman doesn’t want to be cut open. Maybe she is scared for her life maybe she doesn’t want a scar but the fact is she can’t be forced to have surgery against her will especially if that surgery poses no benefit for her. I don’t think my friend was wrong to have an abortion, giving birth would have caused her great psyical pain, even if this was her reason alone, I support it! I forgot she is a woman the same kind of sinner as eve, pain in childbirth is her punishment. The fact that is excruciating should be eclipsed by the fact that it is nateral and her body was designed for it.
Shannon, nobody here is saying that you must sacrifice yourself. There’s a huge difference in withstanding torture to save the world and having an abortion so you don’t have to withstand a vaginal tear. The difference is that not saving the world is inaction. Having an abortion is action. I get what you’re saying, really I do. If ending starvation all across the world meant physical harm to myself, it would be a hard decision. But killing someone (i.e. Having an abortion) so that you don’t have to withstand pain for a few weeks isn’t just a lack of self sacrifice. That’s sacrificing someone else for your comfort. Huge difference. No one is telling you that you need to perpetually give up your own comfort to be a decent person. We’re just asking that you don’t kill someone else for the sake of avoiding pain. You entered into this conversation intelligent, fair and level-headed. That’s more than a lot of pro-choice people do. It would be admirable if you kept on that path regardless of how you feel about the commenters here.
Ban abortion, Kel. Get it banned. Then do a study assessing the mental health of women who are compelled, legally, to continue unwanted pregnancies. See if they come out of that experience only with a few “temporary scars.”
The majority of women are very bright, Megan. They will figure out real quick that sex has consequences and they will change their behaviors. I know you weren’t around then, but there really was a time when people didn’t “hook up” all the time, friends weren’t given “benefits”and commitment meant something. Most people used their God-given Self-Control.
Shannon is just one example of what is happening to our young women’s mindsets. Abortion needs to be outlawed — fast.
Once again, Shannon and Megan are totally ignoring the basic nature of gestating individuals. No, you don’t have any sort of responsibility to just anyone, especially one that requires you to sustain their very lives. However, your own biological child of whom you maintain default custody while pregnant and who your body placed there in the first place DOES have a right to continue living, and to use your resources to do so as well, just as any born child has a right to their parents’ resources and to continue living wherever their parents happen to place them.
Maybe you didn’t experience postpartum depression because you wanted to be pregnant.
Amazingly, postpartum depression, like many/most mental imbalances, is chemical and not related to “wantedness of the pregnancy/child.”
I’m kinda stunned this came out of your mouth, to be honest, it’s so utterly uneducated.
I’m not sure where you got this notion from, but nobody–NOBODY–has an absolute “right to life.” That right is curtailed when a person encroaches on somebody else’s fundamental rights.
Nobody should have an absolute “right” to kill one’s children at will.
Maybe you didn’t experience postpartum depression because you wanted to be pregnant.
Megan, a tip: don’t get your information about postpartum depression from Tom Cruise.
The fact that you think depression and having torn genitals aren’t a big deal and the fact that you think a woman would be concerned about these things is ‘selfish blows my mind.
Actually, I would encourage you to READ what I write rather than interpret it in whatever way you see fit.
Postpartum depression is not a factor in at least 80% of pregnancies. I did not say depression was “no big deal.” I said it was not a common occurrence. And as for the episiotomy, it’s a surgical incision. Very minor, and also becoming less and less common, especially in the US. (Truly I can’t believe I’m having to rewrite what I actually wrote for a 20 year old who’s quite possibly in COLLEGE.) I’m also kinda surprised no one’s mentioned that abortion involves forcibly dilating one’s cervix, inserting a suction catheter umpteen times more powerful than a household vacuum, and suctioning/scraping out the contents of the uterus, including the unborn child. But I guess that’s just a picnic, compared to a small incision to make way for another human being to exit the womb and draw her first breath.
What IS selfish is that a woman would have sex, become pregnant, and THEN decide, “Oh, this is just too freaky, so I’m going to get rid of it.”
Sex has consequences. Killing another person because you don’t want your sex life, figure, or life disrupted is not rational in any sense of the word.
As for Eve and pain in childbirth, surely you have heard of epidurals and other medications that tremendously decrease the pain of childbirth.
BTW, are we honestly talking about your friend here, Shannon… or you?
“you think depression and having torn genitals aren’t a big deal”
People recover from both depression and torn (cut) genitals. No one recovers from being killed. No person should be killed so that another is more likely to be happy. No one should be killed to spare another what is really just a minor injury that heals easily. By the way, if a pregnant woman is concerned with these potentialities she can talk to her doctor about managing and avoiding them. Women should be concerned about their health, but it is selfish to kill another person to preserve one’s own (short-term) health.
“Is a person who doesn’t want to give her kidney away selfish or is she prudent, rightfully scared for the effect a surgery would have on HER LIFE.”
To be pregnant does not entail permanently giving up an organ, it involves an organ doing what it is naturally made to do. Or if you will, it means sharing an organ with another person for 9 months, and then having it all to yourself again.
“The fact that is excruciating should be eclipsed by the fact that it is nateral and her body was designed for it.”
Pain in childbrith can be controlled. Yes, it can be very painful, but women recover from it!
Shannon, could you explain why you think that a fetus is not a person? (I am sorry if I have falsely assumed that you believe this.)
So, Megan, our beautiful unborn children are encroaching on your fundamental right to….what? A new pair of shoes? A boyfriend? Your job? EVERYBODY has the right to life. PERIOD. EVERY. SINGLE. PERSON. Every person, of every size, every walk of life. That is THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL right of all. The right to exist. NOBODY—I mean, absolutely NOBODY—has the right to take that away from anyone, ever. There is nothing more fundamental than the right to live.
As for PPD, I’m appalled that you’d say such foolish things. PPD has nothing to do with whether the child was “wanted” or not. It has nothing to do with that at all. Please. Go back to school. Take some logic classes. And biology classes.
Rcjc,
I don’t think that embryos are people. I have no problem assuming fetuses are people. What I mean by this is that I don’t think an egg that has been recently fertilized and is sitting in a petri dish is in any way a person deserving of rights. But I understand how someone could argue that a 6 week old fetus with a heartbeat is.
But in all honestly the personhood of the fetus is largely irrelivent. At most we would have to consider it’s rights not yield to thementirely like they were the only rights at play.
There is a reason I am on favor of the morning after pill after unprotected sex, and the abortion pill and early non surgical abortions. At most a fetus could require not to be actively killed. It could never require more than a person requires to have it’s life saved. You have said you cannot actively kill to make you happy but you absolutely can refuse to save anothers life for any reason whatsoever
Kel,
I have never been pregnant or had an abortion. But I do feel very strongly about a woman loosing her own autonomy and yes right to be selfishness about her health decisions just because she is sexually active.
In terms of the pain of an abortion I do not know. I assumed it was less painful than pregnancy and childbirth. If this is not true I stand corrected
But I do feel very strongly about a woman loosing her own autonomy and yes right to be selfishness about her health decisions just because she is sexually active.
What do you feel about a woman– or just a female in general– losing her autonomy on the basis that she exists? Would you find that to be abhorrent?
What I mean by this is that I don’t think an egg that has been recently fertilized and is sitting in a petri dish is in any way a person deserving of rights. But I understand how someone could argue that a 6 week old fetus with a heartbeat is.
The heartbeat begins at approximately 21 days gestation. 3 weeks.
Shannon, perhaps you should watch the story of someone who has been through the pain of abortion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2jJzXiRYd0&feature=player_embedded
This is my friend Carla, who is also a moderator on this blog, and she can tell you about the true pain of abortion.
Hi Shannon,
I have given birth four times without drugs. My choice.
My abortion was the single most excruciating thing I have ever been through in my life. I was given no drugs for that though. And nobody told me how physically painful abortion is. Nobody told me it would hurt so much to feel a vacuum suck your living child out through a tube.
If you are here to learn you could try reading the thousands of stories of women who have aborted at
http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org
Oh, and if anyone else comes on this thread and says they didn’t feel a thing with their abortion and they were glad it was so easy……….it doesn’t refute my experience in the least. My child died in my abortion, their child died in theirs. There is no getting around that fact.
Hi Kel. :)
Wow, Carla. We posted at the same time. :)
We did!! Thank you for linking to my story, Kel.
Hi again Shannon.
Please know that even though the physical pain of abortion for me was excruciating, the emotional pain and anguish of realizing that I paid for the death of my daughter pales in comparison.
I can never go back and change that. I can’t have a do over.
I’m not sure where you got this notion from, but nobody–NOBODY–has an absolute “right to life.” That right is curtailed when a person encroaches on somebody else’s fundamental rights.
So now you admit the unborn are persons, Megan?
Round and round she goes, what she believes, we’ll never know. . . . .
Carla
I did watch some of your video, you seem like a very nice lady :) and I am very sorry for the experience you had. I am sorry you were lied to and didn’t know what an abortion was and I mean that.
I do not deny your experience one bit. But I do feel it a bit … Arrogant for you to decide that you had a bad experience with something and decide to ban others legally from trying it as well. I do Not believe in one sized fits all solutions to anything.
I remember loosin my virginity and feeling very bad about it, and getting very depressed transfixed on the idea that I had lost something because I wasn’t in the type of relationship I wanted to be in… I remember preaching to my friends to not do what I had done, warning them what would happen if they did. Many didn’t listen to me and what happened? Well it depends on the person. Many enjoyed the experience many regretted it. I guess I could pretend that those who were not depressed are lying to themselves, but I think it’s more likely that even though we did the same thing we reacted differently, neither responses are wrong they are our own
“But in all honestly the personhood of the fetus is largely irrelivent. At most we would have to consider it’s rights not yield to thementirely like they were the only rights at play.”
You are correct, the rights of the fetus are not the only rights at play! The rights of the mother must also be considered. But one cannot take away the most fundamental right, the right to be allowed to continue to live, in order to preserve the right to bodily autonomy. The right to control one’s person is a derivative of the right to live free from an attack on one’s life. An abortion is an action that actively and directly kills the fetus, with the justification of preserving the mother’s right to her own body. Some have argued that the fetus, by residing in his or her mother, has actively attacked her bodily rights and has forfeited his or her own rights. Excluding, for the moment, rape and ectopic pregnancy, the mother has placed the fetus in her womb by having sex and is one of two people who are responisble for it being there.
Thank you for your answer!
Hi Shannon!
Thank you very watching my story. It means a lot to me. Truly.
I am a nice lady. :) And arrogant at the same time, according to you.
When I tell my story it is to warn others of what happens in an abortion.(a child dies, a woman is wounded)I find myself no different than a mother who lost a child due to a drunk driver and seeks to educate young people in a high school. “A bad experience?” What part of My Child Died do you not understand? I had a bad experience at the hair salon last week. Hardly the same is it? I am not making decisions for anyone am I?
There is NO INFORMED CONSENT with abortion. I was lied to by omission. A bunch of cells at 10 weeks along?? Really?? I was told nothing of the physical pain, the risk of depression, nightmares, anger etc. Nothing of the risk of breast cancer or fertility issues.
I stand against the lies that abortion is simple, painless and easy and has no risks whatsoever. I stand against the lies that abortion helps or heals or solves anything.
Abortion hurts women. Abortion kills children.
The very same video you watched helped two young women choose life and put their beautiful girlies up for adoption. THAT is amazing grace and just one of the many reasons I will continue to speak out.
My deepest pain has become my greatest passion.
If your friend who is post abortive ever struggles please email me.
carla@jillstanek.com
There is hope and healing after abortion.
Holy schnikes, Megan, I was re-reading these posts, and I’m gobsmacked that you would say “It is a PRIVILEGE to exist in a woman’s body for nine months, not an entitlement”…..I am not sure whether to laugh or cry at this absurdity!!!! As if our babies are devious creatures with ulterior motives beyond needing their mommies to love them. Like they’re twirling their baby mustaches and laughing evil baby laughs because they’re trying to pull one over on you. Geez Louise.
This is BACKWARDS, Megan. Nobody has the right to kill someone because their mere existence inconveniences you. Babies don’t have any sense of entitlement–there is no such thing. Babies ARE entitled to life, because they are persons, and all persons deserve to live. Adult women who think they deserve everything they want and will go to any lengths to get it ….THAT is a skewed and selfish entitlement. Stop blaming the babies for your own decisions. Stop villainizing BABIES and start taking responsibility. Abortion is selfish, grotesque, backwards, violent, and completely unnecessary. It is a gross injustice to humanity. Megan, think about what you’re saying and why you’re saying it. Listen to yourself. You sound angry, defensive, misinformed, and childish. There is nothing feminist about abortion; you are being lied to. Please wake up. There is so much good you can do.
I know I’ve been blunt with you in the past, Megan, but Mary Lee’s post kind of put things in perspective for me, and I want to apologize. I’m sorry.
MaryLee, we aren’t talking about a mere inconvenience. Having a child is a life-changing experience. I maintain that it’s a great privilege to be born; pregnancy is the ultimate form of self-sacrifice. I thank my mom every day for that. But contrary to the weird characterizations, I don’t “hate” babies. I absolutely support women who exercise their right to bear children. I’m going to be working with a community program for young moms in the fall. They have everything from lactation consultants to visiting nurses to parenting classes with no agenda except to provide support for where women are at in their lives.
Xalisae: yeah, same here. We’ll never agree on this, and I’m sorry if I’ve been a jerk.
“I maintain that it’s a great privilege to be born.”
—
I want to go back to something I wrote out earlier and something you ignored. If being born is a privilege, then you agree that there’s nothing inherently wrong with sex-selective abortions, yes?
pregnancy is the ultimate form of self-sacrifice
No, it’s not. Being killed for the convenience of your mother is.
That’s very good, Megan, you’re moving in the right direction. But pregnancy is not a sacrifice, and being born isn’t a privilege, it’s a RIGHT. Every child has the right to be born. To say otherwise is dangerous and frightening. We don’t decide who gets to be born and who doesn’t. Killing a baby person isn’t a right. There is no such thing as the “right” to an abortion. It doesn’t exist. We don’t have the right to kill babies who exist. Use birth control, and self-control, THAT is “reproductive freedom.” But when a woman is pregnant, she is already a mother. She has already reproduced. She has no right to kill her own child because she feels inconvenienced. Her child has a right to live, and to take that life away from him is a crime.
I still have hope for you, Megan. I really do. You’re a smart and sensitive person….I believe one day you’ll get there. It’s tough to admit that abortion is such a heinous thing, and it is really self-preservation that causes a lot of pro-choice women defending their abortions. Hey, I get what women go through, because I went through it. But life is precious, it must be respected, especially our beautiful babies in utero. They are beautiful little lives, and nobody has the right to kill them. It is not convenient for me to admit to the true nature od abortion; but the truth is the truth. We need to help women feel they have enough education and support so they don’t have to kill their babies. It is possible. I think you can get there. And I think you would be a great gift when that happens.
MaryLee,
Thank you for that. What a joy to read your words to Megan!!
Megan knows that there are several here that think of her and pray for her and will be there for her if ever she needs or wants to talk. Me included! Me! Pick me! Pick me, Megan!!
I believe too that Megan will get there.
I appreciate the apologies and the kind words that were written here. A nice change of pace on what can be some intense threads.
btw Shannon,
When you say to someone I’m Sorry BUT….it cancels out the I’m Sorry.
And you don’t TRY an abortion like you try on a pair of shoes. Abortion is forever. A living, growing unique human being is killed. There is no denying that fact. Unless you can direct me to the link that describes how an abortion does NOT kill a child.
To a former fetus
From a former fetus
Carla, did you delete my post questioning your involvement in your own Childs death. I’m not trying to be a jerk here. It’s just sort of confusing.
When someone does something really bad thT they regret don’t they normally admit to it and not blame other people. I have a lot of empahy for drug addicts I hope they can get help, but at the
end of the day unless a friend smuggled cocaine
in their cocoa puffs… It’s their fault they r drug addict, not the guy who sold the drugs, or the police for not stopping it, or the coke for being so darn good, it’s the addicts fault don’t you think?
Good grief, Shannon. Why in the world would I delete an honest question???
My job as a mod is to delete comments that do not adhere to the Do’s and Don’ts of comments listed on every post. Pretty straightforward.
Let’s not talk about drug addicts, ok? Let’s stay on topic. Abortion. My abortion.
You are insinuating that I blame others for my abortion? Is that it? Sorry, but you would be wrong on that. Totally wrong. I was coerced into an abortion I did not want and was lied to by omission at the mill. I did not have informed consent. If I would have, I wouldn’t have done it. That is the truth. BUT I still paid for the death of my child. I do believe I wrote that already.
So, the guilt and shame I felt over it drove me to attempt suicide. Which I was not successful at. I then felt that I had two choices. Try again and succeed at ending my life or surrendering it all to God by confessing to Him and asking for forgiveness for my abortion. That was between ME and GOD. The full weight of my sin was on ME. I was there at the mill, I paid for it, I submitted to it, I was hurt by it.
Anything else?