Pelosi accuses pro-life Catholics of having “this conscience thing”
Catholic health-care providers in particular have long said they’d have to go out of business without the conscience protections that [Democrat House Minority Leader Nancy] Pelosi says amount to letting hospitals “say to a woman, ‘I’m sorry you could die’ if you don’t get an abortion.”
Those who dispute that characterization “may not like the language,’’ she said, “but the truth is what I said. I’m a devout Catholic and I honor my faith and love it… but they have this conscience thing’’ that she insists put women at physical risk, although Catholic providers strongly disagree.
~ Washington Post, November 18
[Photo via the Los Angeles Times]
Nov.19, 2011 1:00 pm |
Political anti-life bias |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
… but they have this conscience thing’’
Funny how that works. Maybe you should think about getting one of your own, Nancy.
How does one honor one’s faith without a conscience?
I’m not a Catholic, but I know some devout Catholics and Nancy Pelosi ain’t one of them! You can call yourself Catholic all you want but if you don’t live by the teachings of the Catholic church you are NOT Catholic. Even I as a Baptist know that.
“ I’m a devout Catholic and I honor my faith and love it”
She needs our prayers. She is truly blind.
What’s that expression: Just because you stand in a garage doesn’t mean you’re a car. Pelosi is a devil’s best friend, a wolf who can’t even get the sheep’s clothing wrapped around her sorry carcass. Indeed, she needs prayers. But the babies need them too.
If Pelosi had even one shred of moral and intellectual honesty, she would have left the Roman Catholic Church decades ago. You’re a “devout Catholic”? Please, that’s like a believer in free market capitalism calling himself a “devout Communist,” or an opponent of women’s suffrage calling herself a “devout feminist.”
Very unfortunate. A fully-formed conscience is one that is in conformity with the Teachings – not out of blind obedience, but one that is actually formed and knowledgeable about the Teachings and why – the spiritual formation and basis of our faith. It is very unfortunate, since she causes scandal – the sending of people down the wrong path by her public example. This is why it’s so important to have the knowledgeable and fully-formed guides in our lives – those who understand and live out the actual meaning and fully mature and correct meaning of the Teachings.
Prayers needed. No one is beyond the Grace of Our Lord. Everyone can have a change of heart and conversion. No one is beyond improvement.
My heart aches that she does not understand the Teachings – not only in her public life – but that she sets policy based on that foundation built in the sand. In the end, no building will stand unless it’s built upon firm rock. I pray that Pelosi and other Catholics who have such a poor understanding of their Faith will come to rebuild their house on firm ground, and repair the damage caused by their actions.
We all need to do the same, me included.
Joy–my suspicion is, Pelosi knows and understand the teachings. She just chooses to do evil anyway.
Courtnay – Maybe you are right. Doubly unfortunate. Full knowledge and acted upon anyway while understanding the ramifications can be deadly – especially spiritually. Extremely unfortunate…
But if God can help Saul change to St. Paul, then there is hope for us all, including Pelosi and others. Let’s hope for an opening of the heart.
Abortion does not save lives. It ends them. Abortion is never “necessary” to save a woman’s life! That is the biggest lie of the pro-abort agenda!!
That “conscience thing”???? Is it that alien a term for you Nancy???? Or are you just flippant about the concept?? Do you hate God and morality so much??
Romans 2:21-24
You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,”as it is written.
This is why so many hate Catholics and Christians in general. People like Pelosi saying, “I love my faith” and in the next flippantly disregard that “conscience thing” >:(
Devout?! Define “devout.”
“Protection of the life of the mother as an excuse for an abortion is a smoke screen. In my 36 years of pediatric surgery I have never known of one instance where the child had to be aborted to save the mother’s life. If toward the end of the pregnancy complications arise that threaten the mother’s health, the doctor will either induce labor or perform a Caesarean section. His intention is to save the life of both the mother and the baby. The baby’s life is never willfully destroyed because the mother’s life is in danger.”
— C. Everett Koop, M.D.
Former U.S. Surgeon-General
Ditto, ChristianHippie. The Pelosis of the world, who make a mockery of the purpose of religions, generate a lot of atheism. They also provide the religion-abusing terrorists with an excuse to kill their political opponents.
Carla is also giving a truthful quote. There is no medical necessity to grind up a kid and deliver her dead body in chunks. The grinding process also adds health risk to the mother. Mom’s who have a problem pregnancy can deliver early, thereby allowing an attempt to save both mom and baby.
Nice posts by joy! I think the Church teaches that Church teachings trump one’s conscience. In someone like Nancy Pelosi’s case, we can see why.
Does anyone have examples of abortion being necessary to save the mother’s life? I’m honestly curious.
To Nancy Pelosi:
1.) You’re NOT a Catholic.
2.) Contact your plastic surgeon at once. The last time he worked on you, he removed your conscience. It’s marinating in a bottle of formalin in his lab. Re-implantation IS possible.
What she really said was, “I’m a devout cat-holic.“ See http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=51230
Princess Pelosi is proof that botox damages the brain.
It is telling that Nancy considers herself Catholic, much less a “devout” Catholic. She has said a number of controversial and inexplicable things that put her at odds with the Church. On occasion she has been taken to task by Bishops and prominent Catholics for her erroneous statements. So for her now to still claim her understanding of things Catholic as more enlightened than official teachings says she is either dense, or as Mary puts it she has had a reaction to botox. It does seem from the totality of Nancy’s comments and positions she has taken over the years that she is not the brightest bulb in the chandelier.
But, seriously, there is a problem (as most of us know, both Catholic and non-Catholic) in the Church and many Christian communities today, and it has more to do with backbone than conscience. Someone mentioned “poorly formed” conscience. That is it precisely. Many pastors avoid taking on the “controversial” subjects in their sermons because they do not have the stomach and/or backbone to deal with the ensuing controversy. This has led to their flocks being ill-informed and some in their charge set adrift.
Allow me to seriously defend Nancy Pelosi on this one.
Seriously.
“Conscience Thing,” speaks volumes about her moral formation. Any Catholic who has undertaken a serious approach to his/her faith understands that all scripture and dogma are pointed toward the development of a properly formed conscience.
This is a woman who has been permitted to receive the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus in the Eucharist as though nothing, NOTHING in all of her pro-abortion advocacy has any bearing whatsoever on her Catholicism. The message from her bishop, from all too many bishops has been that she is indeed in communion with the Body of Christ both in Heaven and on earth. Bless them for their patient forbearance, but declarations such as this are a strong signal that this woman’s soul is in danger and that they are complicit by not taking a forceful stand.
Pelosi deserves better than this. So do the rest of the proabort Catholic politicians who receive the Eucharist with impunity. They are being misled, and terribly so. That the former Speaker of the House could utter the phrase “Conscience Thing” and claim to be a devout Catholic points toward a massive failure on the part of her bishops, past and present, who owe it to her in charity to inform her conscience with crystal clarity, and then bar her from Communion until such time as she brings herself into legitimate communion with the Body of Christ.
Response to Gerard … perfectly stated …
Well, if she’s accusing me of having a “conscience thingy”, I state that I’m “guilty as charged”!
So we’re accused of having a conscience. Truly I’ve never heard that one before. I’ve heard of people being accused of NOT having a conscience. I too think she ought to get a “conscience thingy” of her own.
Along the lines of what Gerard has said, we all have a conscience. What is relevant is what behaviors make us feel ‘bad’ or ‘guilty’ – what ‘pricks’ our conscience. That’d be that ‘morals’ thing.
Some faiths have a rich history of trying to imbue feelings of being ‘bad’ or feeling ‘guilty’ according to the behaviors they wish people to abide by.
Many of their adherents don’t always abide, whether their conscience is ‘pricked’ varies according to something within themselves beyond religious dictates. Funny that.
Non-adherents have many of the same conscience pricking morals as adherents but not on every subject.
I think Pelosi may mean that some religious adherents sometimes abide by church dictates which are more harmful than helpful.
They do not have to agree with her of course and Gerard is probably on track when he basically says that to be an adherent one must always adhere. But the fact is that not too many do. How many ‘committed’ catholics use the pill?
Something interesting about the botox…
There were a few studies done recently that showed that people who use botox lose their ability to empathize. Humans automatically react to others by mirroring facial expressions and this facilitates our ability to empathize. In order to interpret emotions we need to mimic them. Over time, with a frozen face and an inadequate ability to mirror, it affects the brain and empathy is lost.
I think this explains much with Pelosi and her “conscience thing.”
Reality,
No, we do not all have a conscience. Ever hear of sociopathy? The main characteristic of a sociopath is that they have NO conscience. About 1 in 25 Americans is a sociopath, so it is highly likely you have encountered more than a few in your lifetime and will encounter a few more.
The best analogy of dealing with a sociopath is the boa constrictor. You will think the snake is your pet, it has acclimated to you, it really loves you and you understand it. You overlook the animal’s brain wiring at your own risk and it strikes. The same holds true for the sociopath.
Kris,
Interesting theory though personally I am convinced people are born with…or without.. an ability to empathize. BTW, that’s another trait of the sociopath.
Mary, personally I am convinced people are born prone to become sociopaths. Just like some people are born prone to addictions. And others are prone at being aggressive.
It is mainly their environment and their own personal choices that push them into sociopathy (or alcoholism or violence). One person might channel their aggressive personality into rape/murder and another person might channel it into running marathons.
I believe our country’s legalization of abortion has helped to create more sociopaths. Once abortion becomes illegal, I believe, we will tip back the other way in numbers.
All people are not sociopaths; however, I would never trust even one boa constrictor. We need to get the boa constrictor’s out of the leadership positions in our country.
God Bless the USA.
Mary and Praxedes, got any sciencey type stuff or even any stats to support your ruminations?
Hi Praxedes,
I’m afraid I must disagree. Sociopaths can begin displaying traits of socipathy from earliest childhood. Like the child who displays early a great talent or genius, this is not acquired, it is inborn. There is even evidence to suggest it may be genetic.
For example I am convinced Ted Bundy was born to be a predatory killer. At age three he was positioning knives around his sleeping aunt’s head.
Our friends’ son began displaying violent aggressive traits during toddlerhood and has grown into a thug. He’s a sociopath and I don’t want him even visiting our home, I have no doubt he is checking out the locks, etc. We have made sure he knows we have a gun.
True the sociopath may channel his/her personality traits into something positive, i.e. special forces, undercover police work, and most are not criminals. However they do display traits you must be very wary of, mainly a lack of conscience and empathy, as well as charisma and the ability to manipulate. This can be the office lothario, the person you are shocked to find out is undermining you with your employer, the unfaithful spouse, etc.
BTW Praxedes, when it comes to sociopaths always keep the boa constrictor in mind.
You disregard this analogy at your own risk.
Reality,
Read “The Sociopath Next Door” by Dr. Martha Stout. For your own sake if nothing else.
Also do some research. The internet is a wealth of information on the subject.
I should also mention I’ve had a few in my family, which reinforces my belief there is definitely a genetic component.
I hear you, Mary, and have read the book you allude to. I also believe that these snakes can pick out those of us who are a bit more naive or trusting. I also believe there is a genetic component, like there is for alcoholism or depression.
There is also a link between being raised without a father in the home to thuggery. Are thugs sociopaths or just lost young people who had no guidance? When does a thug go from being a thug to a sociopath? I believe sociopathy is due to a combination of nature vs. nurture.
If there was a prenatal test for sociopathy (or alcoholism or homosexuality), would you promote aborting these folks? What part do we play in loving everyone? This doesn’t mean enabling them to continue bad behaviors but guiding, correcting and disciplining.
I don’t believe that anyone is beyond help, even your friend’s son. The Bible tells me this.
Reality, Sorry. I don’t have any sciencey type stuff. Just my college degree from the School of Hard Knocks. And my masters degree from Jesus Loves Me University. I like that word, ruminations. I do a lot of ruminating. Some would say it is a curse. I say it is a blessing.
Hi Praxedes,
Speaking of special forces, that’s what my father, who displayed borderline personality and sociopathic traits did. He was a paratrooper in WW2. I encountered another man who’s father also was a paratrooper, our fathers may have known each other. His father became a hitman after leaving the military. I suspect they would have both better served society staying in the special forces!
Hi Praxedes,
Indeed these snakes can pick out those of us who are naive and trusting. I speak from personal experience there!
No I wouldn’t support aborting them. They definitely can be a benefit to society. They are the people willing to take the risks and confront dangers the rest of us don’t want to.
At the same time, we have to be aware of what we are dealing with should we encounter these people in our every day lives.
While I respect your viewpoint and compassion that no one is beyond help I would remind you that this is what the sociopath plays on, your compassion and desire to help him/her. They are master manipulators. The most disheartening thing I ever saw was Dr.Dobson listening to Ted Bundy’s sob story as to how pornography led him to become a killer. Horse pucky. He knew exactly what Dobson wanted to hear and Dobson ate it up, totally oblivious to what a chump he was being played for. As I said, always keep the boa constrictor in mind where these people are concerned.
That would be no science or stats for your claims then ladies.
Reality,
I told you where to find the info. What more do you want? I assume you can read and research as well as I can.
Thanks for the reminder of the boa constrictor, Mary. I have to continually remind myself that trust must be earned and to keep those who have not earned it at arm’s length (or much further!) away.
I have a few in my family too (and work with more than a few!) and I always say I have to love them from a distance, at least always emotionally. I pray for them and those who are around them. I’ve heard that Bundy interview, too. Yuck.
I believe many staunch proaborts are sociopaths or borderline personalities. The Super Sociopaths are those who feign that they are prolife while in reality are making money off of abortion. I cannot back this up with science or stats for Reality, though. I wonder what the stats are on sociopaths ever admitting they are sociopaths? Hey, Reality, when you finish looking up the other stuff, could you research this?
It’s those abortionists who switch over and admit they were wrong and do good things with the rest of their lives, that give me faith that some sociopaths can change. Or maybe these abortionists were not really sociopaths but just misguided because of our laws? More research for you, Reality.
Now if only someone like Pelosi or Obama would convert.
That’s all well and good Mary, but I’m not sure that you and Praxedes, or me, are quite qualified to determine who genuinely qualifies as a sociopath rather than just our opinion that they are. – “I believe many staunch proaborts are sociopaths or borderline personalities.” – now there’s a good example of what I mean.
Any stats on what percentage of the population has been clinically diagnosed as sociopathic?
“I wonder what the stats are on sociopaths ever admitting they are sociopaths? Hey, Reality, when you finish looking up the other stuff, could you research this?” – you’re the one that’s wondering, you look it up.
Hi Praxedes,
Maybe the abortionists that switched weren’t sociopaths. Not everyone who does evil is a sociopath. Also you are wise to keep your distance from those you know or suspect to be sociopaths. You have a far more charitable nature than I do, that is for certain.
Some years ago a coworker of mine who is a sociopath bamboozled me into extra hours that I otherwise wouldn’t have wanted to work. Needless to say very heated words, ones that Jill would never permit me to print here, were exchanged when he owned up to it.
But then Praxedes I had to remind myself that I knew the guy was a sociopath and I trusted him. I’ve got no one to blame but myself. As I said, live and learn.
Reality,
Actually picking out a socipath isn’t all that difficult, though it may take time, depending on the individual(s) you’re dealing with. Just like one does not have to be a Ph.D in genetics to determine who has Down Syndrome.
One huge red flag to me is someone who is very charasmatic. Of course this doesn’t always mean a person is sociopathic, but it gets my antenna up.
As I said Reality, read Dr. Stout’s book. You will definitely find it informative and helpful.
After living with these folks, including a sociopathic stepbrother who stole, lied, and threw me over a chair and into a wall, I entertain no illusions about these people.
I recall his only concern was that I would tell my folks, which likely would have resulted in more physical violence.
Admitting they are socipaths? I know of one who admitted it to me and given his history I had no reason to doubt him.
you’re the one that’s wondering, you look it up.
I was joking, Reality. I know that doesn’t always come through clearly on blogs. These conversations get deep and somewhat depressing. I try to add jokes here and there and I’m sure they are not always appreciated or expressed the way I intend.
It’s been nice talking with you, Mary. I read an article recently about porn changing people’s brain chemistry. I don’t believe all porn addicts become Ted Bundy types but I believe all Ted Bundy types are porn addicts. I think Bundy was playing Dr. Dobson but I also believe pornography led to many of Bundy’s other problems. Playing with porn is like playing with fire. Some will get burned worse than others. Porn is related to many other sexual sins and is related to abortion as well.
pornharms. com
Here’s the problem Mary. You were right, I did generalise a bit when I said that we all have a conscience. It is widely accepted that sociopaths don’t.
But then it all gets messed up when Praxedes says things like “I believe many staunch proaborts are sociopaths or borderline personalities. The Super Sociopaths are those who feign that they are prolife while in reality are making money off of abortion.” and “It’s those abortionists who switch over and admit they were wrong and do good things with the rest of their lives, that give me faith that some sociopaths can change……Now if only someone like Pelosi or Obama would convert”.
“Actually picking out a socipath isn’t all that difficult, though it may take time…..
One huge red flag to me is someone who is very charasmatic” – I don’t think that you or I possess the skills to accurately diagnose people as sociopaths. There are other ‘groups’ which display similar traits and behaviors.
“These conversations get deep and somewhat depressing” – hence my earlier use of the term ‘ruminations’, seems there may have been some accuracy to my assessment ;-)
A close post-abortive relative has struggled with symptoms of borderline personality disorder (BPD) for the last ~10 years. To someone she just meets, she is capable and confident; but over time one sees anger, a child-like impulsiveness, and a general lack of empathy for others. She is mid 30s and has left her loving husband because she wasn’t happy, cannot hold a job, and is now starting to alienate her children because she is constantly making them responsible for her happiness.
I often wonder if there is a correlation, ie did the BPD lead her to abortion through risky behavior and an inability to deal with consequences, or did her abortion lead to the symptoms of BPD?
Hi Reality,
Having lived and worked with sociopaths and other personality disorders, I don’t believe one diagnoses a sociopath anymore than one diagnoses a Down Syndrome person that they happen to observe.
There are certain patterns of behavior to observe and watch for and that can give you fair warning. The thievery, lying, sneakiness, violence, and lack of empathy and conscience of my stepbrother were definite red flags. He could also turn on the charm and had my mother wrapped around his finger.
Yes of course people are charming and charasmatic that are the nicest people you ever met. However when I see charm and charisma that are just a little too intense, my antenna go up. When I’m being flattered a little too excessively or I’ve caught this person in a lie or two, my antenna also go up. Does any of this prove the person is a sociopath? No. But they are signs to watch for and exercise a little caution should you observe them.
I’m very sincere Reality when I suggest you read Dr. Stout’s book and do some research of your own. I wish I had long before now. What I discuss with you has been learned the hard way.
In the meantime, keep the analogy of the boa constrictor in mind should you cross paths with one of these people.
Hi Eric,
IMO its much more likely she was born a BPD and this led to the risky and impulsive behavior that led to an abortion. Whether the abortion exasperated her BPD symptoms or they are just following their natural course is anyone’s guess.
Again only my opinion from living with BPDs and other PDs, and my own personal research. My mother often insisted that WW2 warped my father. I’m convinced he already had these PDs, but his charm and physical attractiveness blinded her to all else. The BPD and sociopathic traits served him well as a paratrooper, but definitely not in domestic life.
BTW, another trait of the sociopath is often their physical attractiveness and seductiveness. However, there are certainly exceptions.
Hi Praxedes,
Its been nice talking to you as well. I think we will have to agree to disagree concerning Ted Bundy. I remain convinced he was born a predatory killer, the incident with his aunt occured long before he could read, and that he was doing what the sociopath excels at, knowing exactly what you want to hear and playing you for the fool you think you aren’t.
Let this incident with Dobson be an important lesson when it comes to the sociopath.
I also advise people that the movie “Basic Instinct”, which I think is an incredible psychological thriller, has some important lessons. Sure there’s much Hollywood license but certain facts remain. Do not think you can out maneuver or play a sociopath at their own game. The more “Detective Curran” thought he had the upper hand, the more “Catherine” pulled him in deeper and deeper until he nearly wound up on the end of an ice pick. Even at the end of the movie he didn’t figure out how he had been played! Just us in the audience.
Dobson and Bundy are an example, though not quite so dramatic!
I always wondered why the Bishops don’t intervene and deny the Communion to politicians like Nancy Pelosi, who state they are Catholic and behave in the opposite way.
The lack of intervention from the Church leaders is confusing to say the least. It tells the faithful that is OK to be Catholic and to promote abortion.
Anyone has any idea why the Bishops are not intervening?
Oh good grief,
In my post to Eric of 9:40am I said “exasperated” when I meant “exacerbated”!!!
I’ve been looking for an adquate way to describe Nancy Pelosi. She isn’t a Catholic……she’s a horrible politician…….everytime I see her on TV I my heart goes into arithmia, I sweat, get nauseated, I shake. I mean this woman was in the 3rd in line to assume the presidency.
I think I’ve found a definition that explains this in the Urban Dictionary. Nancy Pelsoi is a whirling dervish. The UD definition is:
Whirling Dervish
(n.) A person whose behavior resembles a rapid, spinning object. These actions are often spastic fidgeting and incessant babbling. The actions of the whirling dervish are irritating and annoying, often exhausting other people in the immediate vicinity.
Now how can anyone dispute this….Nancy Pelosi, Whirling Dervish Extrodinare.
I always wondered why the Bishops don’t intervene and deny the Communion to politicians like Nancy Pelosi, who state they are Catholic and behave in the opposite way.
I’m not Catholic, so I guess my opinion doesn’t count, but maybe they are afraid of losing their tax-exempt status.
The early followers of Christ did not have tax-exempt status and I think they did just fine.
Hi phillymiss,
I don’t think the tax-exempt status is the issue.
The Catholic church has always defended and acted in accord with the belief that Life starts from conception regardless what the society thinks at any particular moment in time. Just think of the recent decision of the HHS to deny funding to Catholic adoption agencies because they don’t refer to abortion.
My comment and question was more about what the actual (legal) pre-requisites are for the Church to say to any “Catholic” public figure not abiding by the faith ”sorry, but I can’t allow you to receive the Holy Communion”.
Thanks Mary, there are other issues, too, like an absent father. There is no doubt absent fathers are at the root of many of the cluster B personality disorders (borderline, histrionic, narcissistic, and sociopathic).
Ironically, while feminists bemoan absent fathers as irresponsible, they generally disagree with studies that correlate absent fatherism and cluster B disorders because it implies men are important in childhood development.
Hi Eric,
The absent father theory sounds interesting but I maintain these disorders are inborn and have nothing to do with the absence or presence of a father. Over the centuries children endured far worse than the absence of a father and grew into normally functioning adults. As I’ve pointed out, you see these PD traits in earliest childhood. My mother’s sociopathic cousin tried to sexually assault her when they were just children and in that era there was no TV, internet, or movies to give children those ideas. His mother was the dearest soul on the planet. You see PDs in every type of family situation. I’ve spent my life around these B cluster personalities, in fact my mother remarried into another bunch, and I remain convinced there is a strong genetic component.
Also, you have to be highly skeptical of what these people tell you of their childhoods.
These people love to play on your sympathy and portray themselves as such victims.
Hi Mary,
Based on my experience with several people having Cluster B traits, I know they do not choose their disorder, and I agree that simply because it is not chosen does NOT make them a victim. I would say it just gives them a greater obligation to get help, which *IS* a choice. The post-abortive relative I mentioned is struggling because she refuses to get help. She has made it clear that, paraphrased, she is a victim, and victims don’t need to get help but revenge.
Mary, granted this is anecdotal and certainly not statistical, but Ted Bundy was raised in a fatherless home and Adolf Hitler was completely estranged from his abusive father as a child.
Two thoughts: 1) I would still not look at them as victims, however, since PDs do not remove the free will to get help, and 2) the high correlation between fatherlessness and PDs may not be causal. As you mention, the high correlation may be genetic, ie then Bundy’s or Hitler’s parents may have had the PD traits that led to the fatherless / estranged household.
Hi Eric,
Very true they do not choose their disorder, but they do not perceive themselves as having a disorder so getting help may not be a likelihood. If they’re angry and violent, its your fault. From their perspectives, they are inclined to see themselves as victims. Your relative perceiving herself as a victim and out to get revenge is very characteristic of a BPD, as well as other PDs. My grandmother was the classic histrionic. Perpetually feeling sorry for herself and truly seeing herself as a martyr and victim. Even at parties the crying and self pity would begin!
Another example, the NPD may be abusive toward a spouse but perceive themselves as victims of abandonment when the spouse leaves. These NPDs can also become very dangerous when this happens. They truly do not comprehend why anyone would leave them.
I dated an NPD in high school. Of course young and naive as I was I made the perfect mark. Honestly Eric, he would go into a seething rage if I said I didn’t want to go somewhere with him. An absolute controller. He saw nothing at all wrong with his perpetual belittlement and criticism of me. Why would I ever want to end our relationship? Thankfully he moved to another state or I know I would have been stalked.
That is what I mean by my wariness about their childhood tales of woe. You have to be skeptical of what these people tell you. What they perceive may be on a totally different level of reality.
Good example is the movie “Fatal Attraction”. She was a BPD. Remember how her perception and that of “Dan’s” concerning the relationship were completely different and she absolutely could not comprehend that this was just a fling. When they spoke to each other they were on two different planes of reality. That is what dealing with these people is like. They think you are as skewed as you think they are.
Hi Eric 4:44PM
Sorry Eric, but I just don’t go along with the lack of a father thing at all. We could all point out children who endured far worse childhoods and yet became outstanding adults.
Children have been raised in orphanages, abandoned, sold into slavery, raised by prostitutes, drug addicts, etc. The lack of a father seems pretty tame by comparison.
I think your point about the parent having a PD is an excellent one. We see children who “fail to bond”. I am convinced they are socipaths that are the children of sociopaths, parents who had no capacity to bond or love their children. It was assumed this “lack of bonding” and/or abuse caused their child’s anti social behavior but is it possible there is a genetic component as well? That’s what I suspect. I’m convinced you could take this child from his/her socipathic parent(s) at birth and the likelihood of anti social behavior is still there.
Years ago Eric I knew of an OB nursery nurse who could tell parents just by observing their newborns’ behavior in the nursery what kind of children and adults they would grow into. It was almost uncanny and she had an almost 100% track record.
You may not like what you hear. She told one former co worker of mine her twin daughters were headed for trouble. Tragically she was right.
That’s why I’m convinced children are born “pre-wired”, and that includes PDs.
If someone comes up with recent (this year) proof that Pelosi has in fact gone to mass and received communion, I will personally write my bishop, her bishop, and the Pope. I think it is more likely that Pelosi would rather blab that she is a Catholic than actually show up at church on Sundays. According to what I’ve read, however, the bishop of her diocese did actually confront her verbally and in writing and when she met the Pope, I can’t imagine he wouldn’t have taken the opportunity to rebuke her pro-abortion obsession.
I think one of the problems we are experiencing in the Church is that in our pews there are a lot of pro-choice Catholics. I think bishops may fear that if we push the famous abortion advocates away, we will also lose the others who think they’re pro-life but want abortion to be legal (which of course, makes them pro-choice). I think in the long run it’s a risk worth taking. Better a smaller membership today than eternal damnation for even more tomorrow.
We are gently reaffirming the Church’s pro-life position during the intercessory prayers, but honestly I doubt Pelosi actually shows up on Sundays. In fact, if she does show up at Christmas mass, I’ll bet $100 she replies to “the Lord be with you” with the now-outdated “..and also with you.” Because when she says that, it is proof she doesn’t know the first thing about what’s happening in the Church today.
Better a smaller membership today than eternal damnation for even more tomorrow.
But then they might lose tithes to put in the church coffers, and we simply can’t have that…
She talks like having a ” conscience thing” is bad. Pelosi, does not get it, as to her and most liberal democratics talk and integrity mean nothing, they use words to get through the moment ( they think) Kind of like a person using food or drugs to get through the moment, they do not think there will ever be consequences, to words, nor certain actions. Those of us, with a conscience, call it morality and faith know the contrary, Pelosi. She is to be pitied, and so are we as she wields power.
But then they might lose tithes to put in the church coffers, and we simply can’t have that…
Or they might just care about saving souls. . . .
Hi Mary, sounds like you have had far more experience with cluster Bs than I have, so I take your words to heart about the hard-wiring. I absolutely agree lack of a father alone would not explain PDs, especially since my grandfather died when my dad was three, and so my dad grew up fatherless but never felt like a victim and never developed any cluster B traits. I think the reason for fatherlessness may be more at the root, or at least aggravated the pre-wired condition. The relative I mention had a father who abandoned the family for another woman when she was a teen-ager. Thanks for the good words Mary, and for providing me more to think about based on your experience with PDs.
you don’t save souls by condoning things like abortion through apathy or turning a blind eye to the issue, Praxedes.
You can sit in any Catholic church during Mass every day for the rest of your life and not pay a dime, xalisae.
Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church where it affirms “the moral evil of every procured abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law”
Confront those Catholics you think are condoning things like abortion through apathy or turning a blind eye to the issue and tell them exactly what you think they should do about it. Then confront those Catholics who condone the birth control pill and gay “marriage” even though these are also against Church teaching.
Then take a good, long look in the mirror and figure out what it is that makes you so angry about Catholicism.
You just kinda made the point yourself.
That there can be such a thing as people declaring themselves “pro-choice catholics”, and yet there are catholics making a stink about the pill shows that their priorities are not in order in the least. One issue addressed at a time, from most to least severe would make the most sense, would it not? I mean, that Nancy Pelosi can stand and declare herself a “pro-choice catholic”, yet others would merely support the pill or gay marriage and be chastised seems quite unfair to me.
I’ll dove-tail Xalisae’s comment, a bit, and say that there is absolutely no excuse, whatsoever, for the bishops of these utterly public, rabidly pro-abortion “Catholics” to limit themselves to grumblings, tut-tutting, somber-sounding decrials, and/or silence; the Catholic Church has canons (specifically Canon 915) which MANDATE the prohibition of Holy Communion for these deceived and/or evil souls, at very least. The inaction and pandering-to-the-cameras on the part of those bishops will meet a fearsome judgment by Almighty God; I pray for those weak shepherds every day, as I pray for the courageous ones who actually live up to their sacrificial calling.
The Bishop is not meant to be the center of a popularity contest; morality is never to be sacrificed in the name of expediency. Christ did not die to establish THAT.
Right, we don’t tithe in the Catholic church and unfortunately many people put nothing or only a dollar in the basket. It’s the “regulars” who put in the consistent donations that can be used to pay electric bills, roof repair, and administrative costs. And there’s part of our problem: some of the regulars are pro-choice. And if some of them are pro-choice, wouldn’t it be safe to assume that a couple of the bishops themselves may be pro-choice? In conversations I’ve had with fellow parishioners, they think they’re being compassionate to women in crisis. Most people don’t really know how huge the abortion industry has become or how motivated it is by money. I think that they think they mean well. But it breaks my heart. Fortunately, the push for a more pro-life church is growing. Let’s hope and pray that pro-choice Catholics’ hearts are healed. I pray that they grow hearts of flesh where hearts of stone used to be.
That being said, I ask myself when was the last time Pelosi actually showed up at Sunday mass and received communion? I’ll bet she’s just too darn busy (being a useless narcissist).
My point is xalisae that you want the Church to be stronger on proabortion Catholics. but I’m trying to point out that you may not feel the same if others stated they thought the Church should stop giving Eucharist to those who promote the Pill and the IUD which many believe also cause abortion.
I agree that there are more than a few proabort bishops and priests but I can appreciate that prolife bishops and priests who are trying to keep the peace. I think the rest of us, especially Catholics, hold just as much responsibility in contacting the Pelosi’s in our country. I will try to get a letter out to her in the next week or so.
If you want outspoken proaborts chastened consistently by leaders in the Church, will you then be okay with the Catholics who promote the pill being chastened equally as strong?
Here’s a link to an article on CatholicOnline about this subject:
http://catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=43763
Hello Eric,
Thank you for your input as well. A very interesting and informative conversation and one I very much enjoyed.
Either I am related to these people or I have an uncanny ability to attract them!
Ninek, thanks for the article regarding Pelosi. Part of this article says,
She has been corrected by her Bishop, reminded of the true teaching of the Church by the Pope himself and repeatedly exposed in her error by other Catholics. Her incorrect claims concerning Church history and her overt dissent from the teaching office of the Catholic Church is irrefutable. Yet, she persists in her subterfuge.
It doesn’t sound like Catholic leadership is “condoning things like abortion through apathy or turning a blind eye to the issue”, xalisae. What else do you think should be done?
I’ll keep putting money in the collection basket every week and will get busy with my letter.
All churches should be doing more. Not just Catholic churches. Denials of communion and pro-life sermons targeted toward high-profile pro-legal-abortionists are two things that immediately come to mind.
Either I am related to these people or I have an uncanny ability to attract them!
Maybe you are a big-hearted person to whom people with Cluster B traits are attracted because they think you will rescue them. Kind people are often targeted by people with BPD or NPD.
Hi Eric,
You are very kind but I suspect they are attracted to me because they know a sap when they see one! If anyone could be manipulated and used by these people, it was me. I have been taken in time and again and I hope to prevent others from learning lessons the hard way like I have. Oh the blessings of hindsight!