Woman conceived in rape contributes to Gov. Rick Perry’s change of heart on abortion exceptions
He went on to say that he’d never really put a face to the issue and never considered it from the perspective of someone like me, then he said again that I’d changed his heart on this issue.
When he gave his speech later, he was talking about protecting every child, then looked at me and said something like “ALL are worthy of protection.” And that’s how he ended his speech.
~ Pro-life attorney and speaker Rebecca Kiessling, who was conceived as a result of a sexual assault, recalling a recent conversation with Republican Presidential candidate Rick Perry – after which he expressed a departure from his “pro-life with exceptions for rape and incest” position, as quoted by LifeNews.com, December 28
[Photos via mommylife.net and berkeley4life.org]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Amen!
The problem is that Rebecca’s is not the only face to be put on this issue. I read of a woman who was raped when abortion was illegal. She almost died in the illegal abortion and was left sterile by it.
I remember hearing about a woman impregnated through rape who was so upset when her stomach grew with the pregnancy that she shouted, “I can’t take this anymore!” Then she stabbed herself in the stomach.
If and when abortion is again outlawed — and I feel certain Roe v. Wade, at least, will soon be overturned — people are going to have more sympathy for rape victims who are killed or injured in illegal abortions or who commit suicide than those to whom the same things happen who are impregnated through consensual intercourse.
That’s both encouraging and disconcerting at the same time. It may cause others to think things through, but I also find it problematic that Perry didn’t really consider the rape/incest issue from the child’s perspective from the start.
I highly doubt the MSM will cover this story.
You are right Denise.
There are quite a few women that have been conceived in rape that haven’t found their voices yet.
There are women who conceived in rape that kept their babies.
There are women who conceived in rape and put those babies up for adoption.
There are women who conceived in rape and aborted and regret it.
THEY will be heard. Their voices are needed. They will continue to put a face on this issue.
We should punish the perpetrator of the crime of rape and protect the innocent. The mother and child.
Any woman who stabs herself in the stomach needs immediate psychiatric treatment. Any woman who chooses self harm is in need of help.
THAT is not what we are talking about is it? Any child conceived in rape is innocent and doesn’t deserve the death penalty.
Denise – how does getting hurt during the commission of a crime (an illegal abortion) justify killing an innocent bystander? Shall the children be killed for the crimes of either the mother or father?
The mentality you’re writing about is coming from the point of victimization – it’s not healthy, any more than any other kind of vigilantism. I can be sympathetic to a rape victim, but I can’t be sympathetic to her when she turns into a murderer of either the rapist or his child. The pro-choice crowd is all about upholding the rule of law, as long as it favors their desires, but will stop at nothing to skirt it when it no longer meets their needs.
I can be sympathetic to woman who becomes pregnant by rape in every situation. If she wants to kill her rapist, I don’t blame her one iota. If she feels that continuing the pregnancy is too difficult, I don’t blame her then either.
Woman in this incredibly difficult situation need love, not condemnation. The desire to get out of the situation is one of self preservation.
What if this woman were offered genuine support – all medical care covered, child support for her baby, and immediate termination of all parental rights of her attacker? That might be a start to helping her through this incredibly difficult situation.
CHRIS!!! So nice to see you again!!
Susan,
I do like what you wrote very much. Do you blame a woman who conceived in rape and aborted? Instead of offering support and help for the rape she is only offered abortion.
I’m glad to see Rick Perry changed his mind. He’s had alot of opportunity to do so with many people right here in Texas who have rape conception stories. I spoke before a committee at the state capital for the vote on the sonogram bill where they wanted to exclude women who were raped from seeing their sonogram.
I showed two sonograms(one of a rape child and one of a “love” child) and asked the committee to show me which one was the rape child? They couldn’t even look at me!
They know the truth but sometimes there is one time that will hit them and make their heart and eyes open. It happens to abortion workers all the time. Denial is a powerful evil and it takes more than once sometimes to break it.
Rebecca is a beautiful and very successful woman that no one could deny her life has been a powerful contribution to our society. But even if she wasn’t all that she would still deserve to live. Sad that it took that long for Perry to get it.
DENISE
Rebecca isn’t the only face; that is absolutely true. I know close to a hundred stories and have just gotten a glimpse of my peers. I was conceived when 8 men raped my mother. She is a hero. No regrets for her. And even Rebecca’s mother was forced to give birth because abortion was illegal. She has been given the gift of adopting her daughter legally now. Wow. What a turn around. She is not sitting in her old age struggling with the killing of an innocent baby.
If a woman cannot handle her pregnancy and does not understand she is carrying an innocent child that GOD created then we should do all we can to help her. The solution isn’t to allow all women or to push women into thinking their child is a less than human creature for being conceived in rape. We do an injustice to the woman AND the child. Murder is not a solution in the least.
I know someone that is suicidal right now after 5 years following an abortion of rape child. What about her? I haven’t been able to connect with her in a month. I am praying that she is still alive. But what if she killed herself because someone told her it was the right thing to do? Because I know of no one helping these women I’ve started an organization that is about restoring honor and dignity to women and children of rape.(CHOICES4LIFE)
There will always be situations when people make the wrong choice. We do not make murder legal because someone has been hurt or mentally can’t handle the person they want to kill.
I am glad to see there is more understanding about rape conceived. No one is fighting for laws that kill the rapist so why kill the baby?
If our society respects all life then all life will be protected.
Juda, there is an opportunity to help a woman conceived in incestuous rape. Her name is Lisa Coleman and she has been sentenced to death in Texas for the beating and starvation murder of her step-son with her lesbian lover. Lisa Coleman was conceived when her mother was raped incestuously at the age of 12. She grew up neglected and abused. As an adult, she turned that on her step-son.
Will you write to the Governor of Texas asking that her sentence be commuted to life imprisonment?
I myself have never been raped nor have I ever had an abortion.
Carla,
Of course I know that abortion would only compound the problems for the woman who conceives through a rape.
I’m saying that we, as a society and as individuals, need to offer her concrete support, not just “don’t kill your baby.”
This includes legal, material, psychological, anything she needs. Obviously, she should not have to co-parent this child with her attacker. There need to be these protections in place for the woman. Caring for the woman means caring for her unborn baby and the two can’t be separated.
This is a real opportunity for pro-lifers to put their resources into action. Sometimes, we make the woman the bad guy, when what she needs is not a lecture, but some authentic support. I don’t blame her for wanting to get out of the situation. What she needs is support to see that abortion will not solve her problems, even though it seems to be the easy way out.
Susan
Then we are in agreement, Susan.
Juda, Susan, Carla, Chris: Are you going to write to the Governor of Texas asking for a commutation for conceived in rape Lisa Coleman?
No, I’m not.
“That’s both encouraging and disconcerting at the same time. It may cause others to think things through, but I also find it problematic that Perry didn’t really consider the rape/incest issue from the child’s perspective from the start.”
I think it’s just about what is at the root of someone’s opposition to abortion. For a lot of people, it’s consent. Sex makes babies, so consenting to sex means consenting to the possibility of pregnancy. It is a neatly logical, just philosophy. It is, in my mind, the flip side of the bodily autonomy argument, which also centers on consent – the humanity of the unborn is of no consequence because it is of no logical value against the consent of the mother. These are both neat, tidy, logical frameworks through which to support or oppose abortion, in which maybe some sucky situations arise but overall justice can be considered mostly served.
In actuality, I have found opposing abortion to be, while the more logical and scientific choice, also less “logicy.” By that I kind of mean the logic version of ‘truthiness,’ something that FEELS true and thus must be. There are some things that turn each of our stomachs. Requiring rape victims to carry to term is one for a lot of people. Requiring any woman to carry to term is one for a lot of other people. These things FEEL so WRONG at a core emotional level that we cannot easily step back and consider a world in which they are, therefore, the logical or just choice. Lots of people never do.
Opposing abortion means admitting and accepting that life is not always fair or just, that all you can do is make it the “most just” taking into account the wildly imperfect situations you’re given. It means acknowledging that even if a world without abortion would be a more beautiful world, there would still be lots of ugliness and sadness and heartache. It means looking that heartache in the eye and saying, “Yes.” Of course, it doesn’t mean stopping there – that sadness should be a motivation for us to offer support, to heal the social wounds covered by the band-aid abortion provides in these situations – but just looking at it and saying, “Yes,” to it is a big thing for a person to do.
Denise, you just said it yourself, Lisa Coleman is an ADULT. She committed a HORRIFIC crime against an innocent child that had NOTHING TO DO with how SHE was conceived or abused.
Lots of us were abused as children, but we don’t ALL grow up and become child-murderers. What does that even have to do with anything?
She committed murder. The penalty for that in Texas is death.
Why on earth should SHE get to live if that innocent little boy didn’t?
I’m going to try to free Charlie Manson from jail because I heard his conception didn’t involve romantic music, flowers and candles.
Wow.
Hi Carla! I didn’t go away, but it’s been a lot harder to get time to respond.
Alexandra said:
By that I kind of mean the logic version of ‘truthiness,’ something that FEELS true and thus must be. …These things FEEL so WRONG at a core emotional level that we cannot easily step back and consider a world in which they are, therefore, the logical or just choice.
Alexandra – right – most people base their idea of truth on some sort of emotion – what feels right for themselves, and not at all upon logic. Most people, including politicians, operate in the realm of expedient opportunity. As Juda said, Perry was confronted before with facts, but could afford to avoid the reality, and may have found it politically advantageous to do so. Also, Rebecca wasn’t staring him in the face. ;-)
The question now – how long will Perry’s pro-life realization last?
An adult who chooses to commit a crime must suffer the consequences of the law. There should be no protected classes be they conceived in rape/incest, gay, black, female, abused, etc etc.
It is quite telling that the pro-aborts are confusing an adult convicted murderer with a preborn innocent baby.
Denise I am so sorry that Lisa Coleman was traumatized as a child growing up. There are so many more incidents of people growing up traumatized and made wise choices.(please google Peter Loth born in a concentration camp and tortured beyond your imagination but today is a loving person leading others to know forgiveness)
I will not write a letter to anyone trying to protect a criminal. She made that choice and now she has to live with it. Who wrote to the governor to protect that child from his abuse by this woman?
Why are people who do evil get more protection than the innocent?
Pamela says:
December 29, 2011 at 12:39 pm
Denise, you just said it yourself, Lisa Coleman is an ADULT. She committed a HORRIFIC crime against an innocent child that had NOTHING TO DO with how SHE was conceived or abused.
(Denise) Her crime has EVERYTHING to do with how she was conceived — and how she was raised as a result of that conception. As the child of a 12-year-old victim of rape and incest, little Lisa was a continual reminder to her mother — when she was with her mother — of the horror of her conception. Her mother often couldn’t take care of her and she was shunted from foster home to foster home. Lisa Coleman was herself raped repeatedly when growing up.
No, Lisa Coleman is no longer warm and cuddly. I don’t ask for her freedom. I just think it’s appropriate that those concerned with children conceived in rape should ask that her LIFE — only her LIFE — be spared. She is to a large extent the horrible product of her horrible conception.
Juda says:
December 29, 2011 at 1:22 pm
Denise I am so sorry that Lisa Coleman was traumatized as a child growing up. There are so many more incidents of people growing up traumatized and made wise choices.(please google Peter Loth born in a concentration camp and tortured beyond your imagination but today is a loving person leading others to know forgiveness)
I will not write a letter to anyone trying to protect a criminal. She made that choice and now she has to live with it. Who wrote to the governor to protect that child from his abuse by this woman?
(Denise) If you’re saying that no child should ever have been left in the care of a woman like Lisa Coleman, I agree wholeheartedly. Much more social intervention is needed to ensure that children are cared for by people who are mentally healthy which Lisa Coleman was not.
I’m not asking you to write a letter requesting her freedom. Society needs protection from her. I think you should write a letter asking for her life to be spared because her warped mind-set is the direct result of her being conceived in incestuous rape and mistreated as a result of that conception.
There are some things that turn each of our stomachs. Requiring rape victims to carry to term is one for a lot of people. Requiring any woman to carry to term is one for a lot of other people. These things FEEL so WRONG at a core emotional level that we cannot easily step back and consider a world in which they are, therefore, the logical or just choice.
See…that’s just never been the case for me at all. The idea of ending a child’s life has ALWAYS been by far the most stomach-turning idea. I’m a grown woman. I’m an adult. I can handle the consequences and realities of my life. I should be able to, because I’m not a very young, innocent, defenseless baby. Gestating children are not evil invaders, they are a pregnant woman’s CHILD. I can’t imagine a mother with a mindset of an adversarial relationship with her own child.
i used to work with a lady and we became friends. we went out to eat or we would go out for coffee or she would come to my home or me to hers. she and her husband wanted to adopt a child. she asked me one day if she could tell me a secret. i told her “sure” she said “i have a son” i asked where he was. she responded “i was 17 and i put him up for adoption. my father was his father.” “jane” was about 42 when she told me and i told her how brave she was. she added “i couldnt abort. i just couldnt.”
Well xalisae just because it’s never been the case for you doesn’t make it the case for everyone.
For Juda: Regarding the link between abortion and suicide: this is complicated. I wrote an essay about the “Oldenburg Baby” or Tim. The pregnancy occurred within marriage. The married woman was told that if she completed the pregnancy, the baby would have Down Syndrome. She asked for a saline abortion. Tim was born alive. He was given no medical treatment for several hours after his birth and his handicap worsened as a result. His biological mother did not want to care for him and couldn’t anyway as she had a nervous breakdown shortly afterward and was hospitalized. She committed suicide 6 years later. She didn’t leave a note so it’s not known whether or not the suicide and abortion were connected.
In another case, a woman committed suicide about 3 months after an abortion. It is known that it was related because she left a note saying that was the reason.
Well xalisae just because it’s never been the case for you doesn’t make it the case for everyone.
Well Elizabeth, I’m pretty sure that that is the case for MOST women vs. their gestating children. 9 times out of 10, the gestating child is going to be more vulnerable, more innocent, more dependent, ect., than the woman. It’s far from just “what is the case for me”.
Denise, I don’t think she should be put to death. I am anti-DP in all cases. Her childhood isn’t the excuse you are making it out to be, though. Plenty of us had horrifically abusive childhoods, plenty of us were unloved and unwanted by our mothers, but we didn’t choose to turn our pain into anger and hatred towards a child. I feel horrible for what she went through, but people still need to be held responsible for their choices. I don’t think that she deserves death though, I don’t think anyone does.
“I can’t imagine a mother with a mindset of an adversarial relationship with her own child.”
I think part of the problem is, besides the fact that there are some women who simply don’t love their own children, is that the pro-choice “not a child, not a baby, it’s just a potential child” has been really effective at raising forty years of people who truly believe it. We need to educate people and make them see that the child is just as deserving of living before birth as it is after. I think most people have a visceral gut reaction against hurting children, abortion became so accepted when it was insisted that the unborn “aren’t children”. If we can change that way of thinking, there would be a lot less abortion, I believe.
Alexandra: There are some things that turn each of our stomachs. Requiring rape victims to carry to term is one for a lot of people. Requiring any woman to carry to term is one for a lot of other people. These things FEEL so WRONG at a core emotional level that we cannot easily step back and consider a world in which they are, therefore, the logical or just choice. Lots of people never do.
I don’t think it’s really “hard” to consider things from the other side. Either we think the more “just” way to have things is for the unborn life to be protected (perhaps – “no matter what”), or for the woman’s liberty in the matter to be.
Alexandra, good point about exemptions for cases of rape. Politically, it may be seen as a good move for some candidates to be opposing them, although I’d say that even if a candidate portrayed themself as being well to the right of Attila the Hun, there would be some voters who would latch on to it.
Now that we’ve got multiple candidates being against them (rape exemptions), I think that will dilute and divide the more hard-core pro-life factions. Most Americans are already far more moderate than those candidates, and I think at this time they’re faced with a tough choice – to place themself farther away from most voters, or to risk losing “their piece” of the extreme far-right vote, which would really leave them pretty much nowhere, since Romney is already getting the lion’s share of Republican moderates and Independents.
Wow, it’s a Christmas miracle. A presidential candidate who is lagging badly in the polls a week before the primary in a socially conservative state has suddenly had a change of heart and become even more socially conservative, after watching a movie. Uh huh.
It helps to look a prospective victim in the face, too.
Denise,
I meant THE CHILD that she murdered had nothing to do with the abuse she endured.
And again, how she was conceived had NOTHING to do with murder of an innocent child.
She is an adult. She made the CHOICE to abuse and murder that child. Nobody FORCED her. She had free will.
Could we avoid this entire question if more girls and women were on contraceptives? As I’ve said before, I think it would be a good idea for them to be on contraceptive if they are fertile regardless of whether they are voluntarily engaging in partnered sex.
I’m not promoting partnered sex at all and especially not that type of partnered sex resulting in pregnancy.
Denise, FFS. I don’t know why you keep on this “push contraceptives on all fertile women” business. It’s not feasible, at all. I wouldn’t force my wife and daughter to pump hormones into their body against their will, on the off chance that something tragic happens. Have you ever laid out the pros/cons of this idea? The balance sheet doesn’t seem to land on the “pro” side.
The point of the thread is “Does an child deserve to die(by abortion) just because she/he was conceived by rape?”
The answer is NO!
supposed to say “innocent child”
I have more trouble with that darn “edit” feature! :P
Pamela says:
December 29, 2011 at 4:18 pm
Denise,
I meant THE CHILD that she murdered had nothing to do with the abuse she endured.
And again, how she was conceived had NOTHING to do with murder of an innocent child.
She is an adult. She made the CHOICE to abuse and murder that child. Nobody FORCED her. She had free will.
(Denise) You appear to be extremely concerned about those conceived in rape. I’m pointing to someone who was conceived in rape, is in a terrible position but can be helped. The fact that she is in this position has everything to do with the fact that she was conceived by a 12-year-old girl who was incestuously raped. The abuses that she endured resulted in a warped, psychopathic personality.
If females are forced against their will to carry to term and give birth, a very disproportionate number of those babies are going to be screw-ups. No, not all people with tragic backgrounds become psychopaths. But there is a strong statistical correlation.
JackBorsch says:
December 29, 2011 at 5:02 pm
Denise, FFS. I don’t know why you keep on this “push contraceptives on all fertile women” business. It’s not feasible, at all. I wouldn’t force my wife and daughter to pump hormones into their body against their will, on the off chance that something tragic happens. Have you ever laid out the pros/cons of this idea? The balance sheet doesn’t seem to land on the “pro” side.
(Denise) Suppose your daughter is raped and impregnated. Suppose she tells you she simply can’t stand to carry the result of the attack to term.
Wouldn’t you wish she had had a Norplant in her arm or been on DepoProvera?
There wouldn’t be any abortion because there wouldn’t be any pregnancy.
Again, I’ve never had an abortion. A large part of the reason is that I’ve never been pregnant. I didn’t engage in any partnered sexual activity until I was 18 and not vaginal intercourse until my tubal ligation at 24.
It seems to me that “an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.”
I want to add that I’m not promoting promiscuity. I favor courtship and/or chaperoned dating.
Denise, as a mother to many girls, I would be horrified to learn any of my daughters were raped. You’d be stupid to think any good parent wouldn’t be. But to tell her she HAS to be on an artificial contraception that causes breast cancer, can cause infertility and/or other reproductive issues has got to be THE stupidest thing I’ve ever heard to “protect women/girls against rape.” What happened to “her body/ her choice”? That, my dear, is my daughters’ body. If it’s violated by a man, then my husband and I will help her to overcome that violation. But we wouldn’t encourage her to violate herself again (and be the cause of that violation) by having an abortion. Having an abortion causes much more trauma than the rape because at least with the rape, she has someone else to be angry with and can legally deal with it. Having an abortion- she becomes angry with herself. And I do speak from experience, I am post-abortive and I would NEVER, EVER have my daughters believe abortion is an answer. I have also been date raped when I was 17. Trust me when I say it’s SO much easier to walk around knowing I survived that date rape and be able to move on from it rather than knowing I walk around with the label of “child murderer.” (and my abortions were not because of the date rape but rather promiscuity and bad choices influenced by people that had poor ideas of my future in mind and I wasn’t strong enough to stand up against them)
Another thing I need to clarify. Under the “Forced Information” I support, all females seeking elective abortions, including rape and incest victims, would be forced to view a picture of an embryo or fetus at their stage of pregnancy and to hear exactly what the abortion would do to it.
To the victim of date rape: Would a revival of chaperoned dating help with this problem?
hey dirtdart wife dont feel bad. i had a lot of heartache in my life because of poor sexual choices. i used birth control for 14 years and it didnt bring me anything good.
hi denise. birth control really isnt our answer. teaching a woman or a young girl good self esteem is better than any pill shot female condom or male condom. the end result is the same. EMPTINESS. and as jack pointed out why should we women put all this garbage in our bodies? many women have died from blood clots from the pill. a gal i know said she knew a lady who died from using depo. then we all might get breast cancer. who knows?
Denise,
I don’t think a fertile girl being on contraceptives is going to stop unplanned pregnancies from occuring because birth control fails in so many instances. How many women have been on b/c and still end up conceiving? And, then, tragically end up aborting because the b/c failed.
Denise, if (God forbid) something like that happened to my daughter, and she was that opposed to carrying to term, she might make a bad decision. Hopefully, since I am raising my children to respect all human life, she would never feel that way. I would love her regardless.
The answer isn’t to insist that she get on contraceptives the second she starts her period, seriously. I am not opposed to contraceptives, but that needs to be a decision that she makes for herself, hopefully (having a good relationship with your kids is extremely important), she would come to me or her mother first before deciding to become sexual active, so we could talk realistically about her option. I am planning on talking to my kids about healthy sexuality well before they enter puberty, so by the time the hormones hit them we will have an honest relationship and an open door to talk about the issues they might face when it comes to relationships. Again, simply insisting that my daughter take contraceptives for the entirety of their fertile years is just dangerous, ridiculous, and doesn’t actually address the issue of sexuality at all.
Dirtdartwife, you can speak for yourself, saying that your trauma from the abortion was worse than the trauma from your rape. I am really sorry that those things happened to you. However, it’s invalidating of victims to assume that one trauma is always worse than another, or assume that they are going to feel the way you do about it. Not to say that a woman pregnant from rape might be horribly traumatized by aborting that baby, but you can’t assume what she feels. That’s why she needs counseling and a hella lot of support.
And Joan, at 3:50, 12/29/11- if it was a Democratic or socially liberal presidential candidate lagging in the polls and suddenly became pro-abortion after watching an emotionally-charged movie, would you make the same comment?
Denise,
You consistently and conveniently gloss over the many, MANY problems that chemical contraceptives cause, from five-fold increase in ectopic pregnancies (progestins), Breast Cancer: 540% increased risk of triple negative BC by age 40 {the deadliest} in girls who begin the pill before age 18, 240% increased risk starting the pill after age 23.
The list goes on and on.
Tell me, Denise, in what system of jurisprudence anywhere in the world do we execute the child for the father’s crime? As a people we are good, just and noble to the extent that we respect the humanity and human dignity of the least loved, least functional, least desirable among us. In a letter to his daughter, Patsy, Thomas Jefferson wrote:
“Every human being must be viewed according to what it is good for, for none of us — no, not one — is perfect, and were we to love none who had imperfections, this world would be a desert for our love. ”
That begins with an honest look in the mirror. If anyone can make the case for why the most vulnerable and most innocent among us should be hacked to pieces, then I believe that individual’s voice should hold the least sway in a civilized society.
Jack Borsch
Thank you for your comment about not assuming what rape victims will feel if they get pregnant. I got pregnant as a result of incest and cannot IMAGINE my life if I had my father’s child. I would not have survived.
If some rape victims are glad they carried their pregnancies to term, that is fine. However, they can’t assume another women would feel the same. It does not make sense to conclude other women should be forced to continue the pregnancy.
For Gerard,
The problem is that in order for the unborn to survive, the victim must be forced to carry this constant reminder of her attack and give birth. Some females just won’t be able to do that.
It’s hard for me to demand others do that since I don’t know if I could.
As I’ve said before, I am horrified by abortion. To avoid getting pregnant, I spent almost all time during my high school years isolated in my room. Although I ended up handicapped and mal-socialized, I never had an abortion.
dirtdart didnt mean to ignore your rape. im terribly sorry to hear that. and i have got to ask sarah j. did the abortion clinic report the incest and is this man locked up?
Gerard Nadal says:
December 30, 2011 at 1:04 am
As a people we are good, just and noble to the extent that we respect the humanity and human dignity of the least loved, least functional, least desirable among us.
(Denise) Gerard, will you write to the Governor of Texas asking him to commute the sentence of conceived in rape Lisa Coleman to life imprisonment?
She is an ugly person but is to a large extent what she was made to be by a horrible background that began with the tragedy of her conception.
For Juda: Lisa Coleman is to some extent your “sister.” She was also conceived in rape. She was in fact punished in her life for the crime of her father. Society deserves protection from her but inflicting the ultimate penalty neglects this important truth.
abortion clinics havent solved anything. they have opened up the flood gates for rape and incest to continue. i told the horrific story of the 2 girls in kansas. their dad kept raping them and taking them for abortions. i believe each girl had 4. the big secret was exposed when one of the girls carried to term and told the medical staff about the years of rape. i hope they put the sicko away! the abortion clinic is just as guilty for not reporting a thing. these minors were returned to the house of horrors!!!!!!
i looked up lisa coleman and all i could find was that she abused her son for years ( a power issue) and her lesbian lover did too. it looks like she is doing life and was taken off of death row. anyone who could starve their child ought to be put to death. im pro death penalty. i always have been. people like this need the death chamber. just like that girl who starved her baby and wanted a new trial. the reason? because she had been considering an abortion. INSANE….let her rot. and little beautiful baby gabriel has never been found. i know his mother killed that poor soul. elizabeth johnson did it to spite the father. she left him a message “i stuffed his blue lifeless body into his baby bag and threw him in the trash.” his body has never been found. he was 8 months old. i hope her days in prison are a living hell every single day. if shes ever found guilty of his murder i hope they put her to death.
It is utterly moronic to think telling a woman who has been raped “take your clothes off, lay back, spread your legs, and let a stranger stick painful things into you while pulling out your now-dead baby” is, under *any* circumstance, better than telling them “your child needs you to take care of them, even though they aren’t planned and their father is a criminal, for about nine months. Their mother is a strong, wonderful woman who can protect their child.”
Abortion helps society ignore a rape, but it’s patently absurd to think it helps the women who have been raped.
Sarah,
I am terribly sorry for what you have endured. Horrifying!!
Your child died in your abortion, just as mine did regardless of how we “feel.”
How did the ending of your child’s life help you? How did it heal the incest you endured? The innocent one was put to death, not the perpetrator of the crime.
denise i couldnt find anything saying lisa had been raped. i take your word but she could have given the boy up for adoption and gone on with a happy life. how did torture and starvation help anything? nope. my friend gave birth to her fathers child ( and dont get me wrong~its something i could never wrap my head around because my dad was a real man and a real father) i cant even allow my mind to go there with a father having sex with a baby he used to diaper. its repulsive BUT this woman wasnt some rambling nut case. she just told me her dad told her to lie and say the dad was also a teen. she told me she remained very anti abortion despite what happened to her. coleman can rot or die. i dont care.
heather says:
December 30, 2011 at 11:45 am
denise i couldnt find anything saying lisa had been raped. i take your word but she could have given the boy up for adoption and gone on with a happy life. how did torture and starvation help anything? nope.
(Denise) There’s no question about adoption in the Lisa Coleman case as she never had legal custody of little Devontae. He wasn’t her child.
He was the child of Lisa’s lesbian lover so Lisa acted as his step-mother — in this case, a modern day version of the classic wicked step-mother. When Lisa began abusing him, the mother did not take the child away from the environment or even attempt to protect him. She did not feed him when he begged for food. She even helped Lisa tie the boy down so he could not get food. She also went to prison but never received a death sentence since Lisa was believed to have been the primary abuser and the mother testified against Lisa.
Lisa Coleman was conceived in rape. Her mother was a 12-year-old girl raped by a relative (I believe an uncle). Lisa wasn’t placed for adoption but her child-mother couldn’t take very good care of her. She spent her childhood shunted between relatives and foster homes. She was frequently disciplined severely — and sometimes deprived of food for long periods. As she was growing up, she was raped several times. That is how rape figures into the case: Lisa Coleman is the face of a woman conceived in rape. She also has a history of being a rape victim.
A child is a child no matter their conception.
A child is not a “reminder of a horror.” A child is an innocent human being. That she reminds the mother is not that child’s fault. It is the mother who needs to heal. She is wrong to blame the child and NOT the perpetrator. Let us look to the one who is guilty of the crime of rape and incest and prosecute them!!!
Anyone who has survived rape or incest needs help and support and therapy. Women CAN and DO stop equating the horror of incest and projecting that onto an innocent child.
Out of something so horrifying can be the blessing of a child and grandchildren. I have seen it happen myself.
Heather & Carla:
My father was a doctor; he realized I was pregnant by my symptoms (before I even knew) and he arranged for the abortions himself through someone he knew. No one found out about the pregnancies (this happened more than once–the first time I was 13) So no, he was never put away. And I never actually decided to have abortions, they were done TO me. (my father drugged me before the abortions)
Although the circumstances of the abortions were despicable, I have never regretted that they happened. I absolutely would have committed suicide if I had had to continue any of the pregnancies.
Jespren: No, it is not moronic in the least to suggest that a pregnant rape victim might prefer an abortion to giving birth to her rapist’s baby.
Sometimes pro-life people make blanket, simplistic assumptions to support their arguments. It is natural. We all do it to some extent in regards to causes we are passionate about. But I think it is important to acknowledge facts. I have been in many support groups because of my experiences. And I have met many many women who are very very relieved they had abortions rather than carry their rapist’s baby.
It is not for me to decide for any rape victim what is best for her. If she wants to continue her pregnancy that is up to her and thank goodness there are no laws preventing her from exercising her choice over her own body and future.
Sometimes abortion is necessary to protect the mother’s life. It is. If someone believes an unborn child’s right to live is more important than the mother’s, I definitely disagree, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. What people are not entitled to is spreading untruths to support their position. That is true for pro-choice people as well. It is wrong to deny the pain of abortion.
Thank you for sharing your views.
Thank you for sharing your views.
Denise Noe, one of the reasons I think people tend to ignore your questions is you tend to focus on the wrong issue. The question isn’t “How do we avoid pregancies through rape?” The preganacy isn’t the problem, it is a (rare!) side effect to the problem. Your question should be “how do we decrease rape?”
The answer to that is: reverse the sexual revolution. Rape used to be not only exceptionally rare but completely unacceptable and harshly punished. Then Kinsey, the father of the sexual revolutional, classified rape as “a victimless crime easily forgotten” and is quoted as saying “the only difference between rape and a good time is whether the father is awake when the girl gets home.” His preverted and wildly unscientific views were forced not only upon an unsuspecting populous but upon the legal system as well, which begane to look upon rape as a minor infraction and a ‘he said, she said’ situation. Yet rape is a horrible, traumatizing, life changing crime second only to murder. Furthermore rapists are almost exclusively habitual, unrepentant, and repeating offenders. The criminal justice system seems rape as no big deal with a 5 year limitation, and usually low incarceration times and low conviction rates (although it does vary state to state). And locking them away does nothing to stop their crimes, all it does it change the population they have access to (as rape is excessively common in prision). Conviction of a violent rape should be a death penalty offense, period. Conviction of a non-violent rape should result in emasculation, significant restitution, and a 2nd conviction (showing habituality) should be a death sentence. Until rape is taken as a serious crime, and treated as such by the justice system and the society as a whole, rape will continue to increase. Tell a person from before puberty that ‘anything goes’ when it comes to sex and’ guess what? They will believe you! As rape increases, the side effects of rape, including pregnancy will rise as well. But focusing on the side effects will never help fix the problem. asking how to lower pregnancy-by-rape is as effective as trying to ‘cure’ people of obesity by buying larger clothes.
Sarah, I am really sorry for what you went through.
Jespren, rape has never been rare and wasn’t even illegal in a lot of cases various times throughout history. I have no idea where you came up with that.
sarah i am a nurse. may i ask what your father drugged you with? did you ever tell anyone? im just asking that if you were drugged didnt a doctor or nurse at the abortion clinic pick up on this? you have me curious.
Thank you, JackBorsch. And you’re right. Rape has never been rare. Not at all. Kinsey’s comments were disgusting but they were not responsible for all the rape that occurs. Rape has been around forever. And I’m sure that in places where rape is a way of life, like the Congo, they have never heard of Kinsey.
sarah im only asking because every woman i know had to be npo nothing by mouth prior to a procedure. i can tell when someone is doped up and why did they do the abortion anyway? the abortion clinic will give you total sedation. trust me plenty of my friends asked for “twilight sleep”
It wasn’t an abortion clinic. My father took me to a friend of his so no one would know about the pregnancy.
and sarah you have just proven that the abotion clinic did nothing but give you an abortion and allowed your dad to continue to rape you. you said it happened again. this is what abortion clinics do. and your dad is walking free?
Heather–I’m sorry, I guess I’m not being clear. I never went to an abortion clinic. The abortions were done by my dad and a friend of his (also a doctor) to keep the pregnancies secret.
My father is now dead, thank goodness. By the time I was ready to even BEGIN talking about the fact that my father did these things to me the statute of limitations had passed. I was filled with shame and terror and the fear that my family would abandon me if they knew. Incest is a terrible thing.
so your dad took you where sarah? an abortion clinic? a hospital? and did you ever report either one of them. its never too late. if a friend of your fathers did this as a favor to him he must not value his medical license. thats deep do do for both of them.
Sarah, have you talked to a counselor about what you went through? It sounds like an absolutely terrible situation.
To a private office where no one would know–not to a clinic. Both my father and the other doctor are dead now. It was forty years ago. The first time abortion wasn’t even legal.
sarah where is the other doctor now? where did your dad take you and if this man knew he was going to cover up for your fathers crime then why didnt he sedate you himself? why were you drugged and then taken?
sarah so you had illegal abortions? how long did the monster rape you after the first abortion and where is the other guy? abortion allowed your dad to keep raping you. same holds true today!
Sarah, I am so sorry for what happened to you. The fact that the abortionist sent you back at age 13 for your abuser to continue his abuse of you and to impregnate you again is absolutely inexcusable!!
You state that you know for a fact that you would have committed suicide had you remained pregnant. I don’t doubt you felt and still feel that way however I argue there is no way to prove this at this point and to use this as an excuse to keep abortion legal is just that, an excuse. Anyone who is suicidal needs help, not abortion.
My ex told me he would kill himself if I ever left him. Ten plus years later, he’s still here. Whether he really felt that way or was saying this to control me is anyone’s guess.
This doesn’t change the fact that I totally sympathize with what happened to you and I am VERY angered that it was allowed to continue. You needed to be in a loving, protecting environment where you were watched to make sure you wouldn’t hurt yourself not sent back to a rapist.
Had you been taken away from your abuser the first time you became pregnant so that this could not happen again, you would have been that much further down the road of recovery. As it is, your abortion enabled your abuser to continue raping you and even impregnating you again. Abortion did not unrape you or hold your abuser accountable. Your child did not cause the terrible events to happen in your life but was destroyed anyway. Your baby’s death did not keep you from being raped again.
We know that rape has been around forever. But has it increased in the last 40 years in our country?
I believe rapes in our country have greatly increased since Roe v. Wade and since the attempt to separate procreation from sex. Does anyone have any reliable stats?
Vermont fraternity brothers are arrogant enough to post the question “who would you rape?”. Does anyone know of a similar case by frat brothers before Roe? I’ve heard one in three girls are raped before they turn 18 and one in six boys. True or not? Was this the case in the 40s and 50s? When did the date-rape drug become popular? Before Roe or after?
When did we learn about the Catholic sex-abuse scandal? (yes, rape has always gone on in every religion but I’m talking the big scandal we all know about). What about Penn State? How about the organized cover ups of sexual abuse of children like at PP?
I was raped twice as a young adult. Both times by men I knew well. My best friend and other women I know have been raped.
My mom nor none of her friends have been raped that she knows of.
The objectification of women is everywhere in our country. And some women seem to be okay with it or maybe just immune to it. Parents allow their children to dress and behave like sex objects. We have middle school girls wearing sports uniforms that break the school dress codes but no wants to be seen as a prude. They just sit by and listen to dirty old and young men make nasty comments.
Women have become objects to use and toss away. Similar to the children in our wombs.
Where are the feminists screaming about all of this???
My rant is over now.
Great post, Praxedes.
Sarah,
I am so very sorry for what you have endured. No child should EVER be allowed to go through that at the hands of adults that are supposed to LOVE and CARE and NURTURE her. Makes me ill and so very angry. Your dad is one sick man.
I hope and pray that you reach out for help when you need it. There is healing for you. There is hope.
Many posts appeared at the same time mine did so when I typed mine I didn’t realize Sarah’s full story.
However, like Heather, “Hold’s true today.”
I believe it was guys like Sarah’s dad and his friend who supported legalized abortion. Same holds true today on that one, too.
no sarah you made yourself clear except for the fact that both doctors are dead and your abortions were so long ago. i would agree with jack and get help because by now you should see that rape goes unreported and is hand in hand with abortion. this is not good for girls having legal abortions today.
“That she reminds the mother is not that child’s fault. It is the mother who needs to heal.”
Of course it’s the woman who has to heal. The woman who has to endure nine months of pregnancy. The woman who has to either give up her baby or resign herself to motherhood. The woman who has to come to Jesus.
I wish there were some sort of portal where pro-lifers could assume all the responsibilities they seek to foist on other women. Now that would be an act of charity.
Your stats are right, Praxedes. About one in three women and one is six men are sexually abused at one point, usually before they are eighteen. Some experts believe that the stats for males are actually closer to one in four or five, since it tends to be much less reported.
From what I have read, it’s hard to compare the rate of rape in previous generations because a)it wasn’t talked about in general, and b) the victim blaming, especially in the US, discourage victims who reported from following through on charges. It is still like that a bit, though it’s a little better. From the mid part of this century, the rates of known rape has actually gone down, and the amount of convictions has gone up slightly. There are different reasons for that, for one marital rape and child abuse are actually recognized and considered serious crimes, and our society has actually recognized the need to protect women and children in their own homes. Domestic abuse assistance was also rare in earlier decades.
I think it’s very odd to blame rape on abortion, and it isn’t statistically supported. I don’t know how much the more sexual culture we have is responsible, but considering that the rapes are the same or greater in more “prudish” countries, and lower in more relaxed European countries, it’s either not closely related or there are many more factors to consider.
Sarah, I am really sorry you went through all that. That should never happen to a child. No one should be sexually abused and forced to abort at age thirteen, that horrifying.
“by now you should see that rape goes unreported and is hand in hand with abortion.”
Lisa Coleman’s mother was raped and was handed her baby, with what seems to have been minimal social support. Lisa Coleman, a product of rape, was raped herself. How did Lisa’s mother giving birth stop that cycle of abuse? Your argument falls flat, heather.
Lisa Coleman isn’t a sympathetic character. She isn’t pretty or white or straight, wasn’t placed on a pedestal and handed a book deal. Denise Noe is right: this is the reality pro-lifers have to face when they seek to curtail women’s reproductive freedom. Newborns just aren’t whisked away from unfit mothers by the stork–the foster care system is testament to this unfortunate truth.
Prax,
I believe rape even went on during war-time. Who knows if there are statistics out there – I’m sure that the actual numbers will never be known.
Sarah, you endured a terrible evil. I’m so sorry for you.
sorry megan i cant deal with you as you pretty much admitted to aborting so you wouldnt get fat. eh…i had 4 kids and im a size 6 with 0 strtch marks. anyway coleman should have given her son up for adoption. we have to be big girls and grow up some day and make choices. many women go to prison for making poor choices. many others have horrible stories and never did one day in jail. starving and abusing your son to death. i hope her state kills her. give her that needle asap!
Megan, I think that it’s a valid point to bring up the failures of our foster care and social support systems. I have seen the failure of them, and it’s not pretty. I think these failures even increase the rate of abortion, seeing as children from abusive and unloving homes are a LOT more likely to practice unsafe, promiscuous, and early sex. I just don’t see how abortion on demand is helping the situation. Abortion was legal when I was born, and I still grew up in a horribly abusive environment. You seem to think that pro-lifers have some pie in the sky that every woman will love their child if they give birth to it, and that we think criminalizing abortion will cure these problems. It’s really not the way most pro-lifers think about the situation. Just because we think children should be protected from their earliest stage of development doesn’t mean that we don’t want things to be improved for these unwanted kids once they are born.
“I think it’s very odd to blame rape on abortion”
I think it is a very legitimate to question whether abortion has increased any of the other negatives in our society.
Rape, abortion, child pornography/prostitution and child abuse all feed off of each other, I believe. Yes, each has always been around but our country has only legalized one of them. Who is surprised that PP covers up for child rape? They kill humans for crying in the rain.
Kind of like not all porn addicts become serial killers but all serial killers are porn addicts. There is a correlation between porn and serial killers.
I find it odd that more prolifers don’t question the correlation between objectification, rape, child abuse, alcohol/drug abuse and abortion.
Well, you only have to look at countries where abortion is illegal to see that they have ridiculous rates of sexual assault, abuse, objectification of women, etc. Or look at the high rates of boys being abused, what could that have to do with abortion or the objectification of women? Look at the stats for some African or South American countries, maybe. I am not saying that abortion can’t possibly have anything to do with it. but there are other possibly even more important correlating factors. I think it’s weird to idolize the earlier part of the century, where, if you were raped, you were lucky if they didn’t accuse you of being a slut. It’s a multifaceted problem of which abortion and the sexual revolution is just one piece, and it’s not helping anything to try to blame it on something while not looking at the other factors.
praxedes yes it looks like we were posting at the same time. sarah and jack too. okay i believe that once the supreme court legally allowed us to murder our babies then children are nothing. where is their protection? we cant protect them in the womb and child molestors get very little time. is it any wonder every day a child vanishes or is abducted? its because we have failed to protect the weak the sick the elderly. im lucky. i can fight back! im big enough and strong enough BUT thats why im so enraged that the weak are just prey. i want to protect them all but abortion is the law of the land. my day just might come where i am unable to fight my own battles. then what? will my country kill me. abortion is INSANE and the only thing abortion does is cover the tracks of grown men who want to get their sexual jollies off of little girls. also read the book LIME 5. sometimes even the abortionists will get their jollies off of minors too. who can they tell? abortion must end or america will never recover.
same to you megan.
“I think it’s weird to idolize the earlier part of the century, where, if you were raped, you were lucky if they didn’t accuse you of being a slut.”
Jack, I don’t see where anyone has idolized the earlier part of the century. I posted recently to Reality that there were problems for women then as well but just in a different way.
Maybe you missed where I stated that I realize rape has always been around. I believe that abortion has made terrible problems worse and that rape, especially date rape, has increased since legalized abortion. These are my beliefs. You have every right to disagree, Jack.
When I started talking about being raped, I was accused of lying, leading them on, dressing inappropriately, drinking, being alone with them. This was in the late 90s, Jack. No, I wasn’t directly called a slut but I might as well have been. I don’t see that this mindset has changed much.
When I started talking about being abused by my husband (around the same time) I was told I was lying, that I egged him on, that I started the fights, that I caused his drinking, that I was also abusive, that I exaggerate, that I flirted, that I worked in a bar. Some of this told to me by those in positions of authority. My ex is now separated from his 2nd wife who he also abused. She went to jail two times for fights they were in. He went zero.
Women haven’t come a long way. Abortion has set women back. I believe, abortion has set all abuse victims back and made more victims. Again, you don’t have to agree.
I agree that there are other factors, Jack. At Jill’s we usually are talking about abortion, so I stuck to that theme.
I’m sorry, Praxedes. I don’t think I was clear. I don’t know if rape has increased or not, I think it’s almost impossible to figure out. All I know is that it has decreased fairly steadily in recent years, though the statistics are flawed since it is a very unreported crime. I do know that the way the legal system and society’s reactions have changed a bit though. You wouldn’t have something like Slutwalk in the fifties. I realize that there is still a lot of victim blaming, I was told I should have fought, that I must have wanted it, and that I must be gay for what happened to me. Pastors told me that. And that was in 2003. It’s an absolutely horrible feeling to be blamed and I am enraged that people blamed you for what happened. I’m so sorry that people would say that to you. However, I do think that blaming is at least a little bit less likely to happen now, as opposed to an era where sexual abuse, especially stuff like incest and marital or partner rape, wasn’t talked about at all, and wasn’t even illegal in a lot of cases.
I AGREE that abortion set women back. I think it caused a lot of issues, and I think it’s horrible thing. I can’t see the correlations that people see on this site to like every societal ill. It disturbs me when I see these statements that I can’t back up with data or even anecdotes. I am an analytical type of person, and arguments that I can’t back up worry me. Also, I think that we do the country a disservice if we are all focused too much on making abortion illegal and not enough on changing the circumstances that led women to abort in the first place. Supply doesn’t exist without demand, and the demand doesn’t cease until we work on why women are being put down that road.
praxedes well put! we indeed have more victims AND problems because of abortion and women are in bondage for buying into womens lib..( myself included ) you should never ever have to choose killing your child for any man career or family member. besides has anyone put themselves in the shoes of the unborn child who will be battered tortured and in pain in their mothers womb before they die?
JackBorsch says:
December 30, 2011 at 3:30 pm
All those countries have an obvious commonality. If you are not afraid of being politically incorrect, it is blindingly obvious what the cause of such abuses is.
——————————————————
It’s apparent that the legalization of abortion here, and over seas (Russia for example, Australia, and many others with frighteningly high infanticide, rape, etc. comparable to, or worse than those mentioned above), has not lessened any of these problems. But has it made the problems worse? Yes. If not in the number of occurrences, at least in the attitudes concerning them.
————————————————–
Megan,
Lisa Coleman made a choice. As an adult. There are many other Lisa Colemans out there who have not chosen to do such evil to others as was done to them. Many many Lisa Colemans who have never chosen to abuse or murder someone. Why do you insist on ignoring them, while insisting we are ignoring Lisa Coleman?
They don’t fit your argument, while Lisa Coleman is irrelevant to ours.
No one is saying giving birth is a magical fix to abuse. What we are saying is that killing your child is NOT a magical fix to abuse. The child’s death doesn’t magically undo or stop the abuse. It is simply a part of it. And, as in Sarah’s case and many others, actually helps enable continued abuse.
There are many things to consider doing and do to stop abuse. Abortion is not one of them. Abortion might “solve” a symptom of the problem, that being pregnancy, but it doesn’t solve the problem. You might as well “cure” a heart attack by administering Tylenol! It might help with the chest pain (a symptom), but the underlying, potentially deadly, problem is still there.
abortion on demand has been in motion for 40 years. its because of these women who wanted us to not only be equal to men but they want us to BE men! im serious. hate your reproductive system. who wants kids? ick! get a career. that will fix it. im all for womens rights but not when they include killing as many children as you please until its a “good time” to reproduce. women are now having multiple abortions. its no longer uncommon to hear a woman say ” ive had 7 8. 10 abortions” i find that to be a shame because they are being taught its normal.
If Rick Perry thinks that a girl who was raped should be to abort the resulting pregnancy, then what does he think about killing people who are invading a piece of land? After all a pregnancy resulting from rape IS an invasion, and yet if it is not justified to kill someone invading one’s own body, how much less would it be justified to kill someone invading a piece of land.
Then of course there are the firebombings of Tokyo and Dresden, which killed perhaps hundreds of unborn babies. Whose bodies, whose land were those babies invading?
There was a case in Ireland back in 1992 .
I find it incongruous that, we as a society, may authorize or even require our sons to kill people who invade other people’s land, while forbidding our daughters from killing people who are invading their own bodies.
Just like there are war veterans who are suicidal.
The irish girl in the case I linked to had threatened suicide if she could not kill the baby.
And yet, I can understand why some pregnant rape victims may not want to abort. According to RAINN , [a]pproximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim. . And 28% of rapists are the intimate partners of their victims !
I understand the justification for abortion, in that the unborn baby is an invader, and assuming arguendo that the same ethical principles apply to killing unborn life as it does to kill born life, killing an unborn invader of a womb is as justified as killing a born invader of a piece of land. And yet, due to the fact that 2/3 of rapes are committed by someone known to the victim, and over a fourth are committed by an intimate partner, I understand why this justification rings hollow.
“All those countries have an obvious commonality. If you are not afraid of being politically incorrect, it is blindingly obvious what the cause of such abuses is.”
Sorry, you guys don’t get to blame this one on Islam, when most of South America is Christian majority and a lot of the African countries are Christian majority as well. Republic of the Congo, Uganda… very much Christian majority. Sexual violence and gender discrimination and abuse isn’t a neat package to blame on one religion.
Carla says:
December 30, 2011 at 12:11 pm
A child is a child no matter their conception.
A child is not a “reminder of a horror.” A child is an innocent human being. That she reminds the mother is not that child’s fault. It is the mother who needs to heal. She is wrong to blame the child and NOT the perpetrator. Let us look to the one who is guilty of the crime of rape and incest and prosecute them!!!
Anyone who has survived rape or incest needs help and support and therapy. Women CAN and DO stop equating the horror of incest and projecting that onto an innocent child.
Out of something so horrifying can be the blessing of a child and grandchildren. I have seen it happen myself.
(Denise) Do you think Lisa Coleman’s young mother thought of the baby she had as a blessing?
Did her mother treat the child as a blessing?
I hope Heather is correct that her sentence has been changed to life imprisonment but at one point the state of Texas was prepared to end the life of this blessing.
heather says:
December 30, 2011 at 3:15 pm
sorry megan i cant deal with you as you pretty much admitted to aborting so you wouldnt get fat. eh…i had 4 kids and im a size 6 with 0 strtch marks.
(Denise) She may have had stretch marks but Jayne Mansfield had a remarkably narrow waist after pregnancies. After her pregnancies, her figure may even have gotten BETTER. Her breasts grew and she got the waist back by exercises Mickey Hargitay taught her to do. The great sex goddess had five children at the time of her death in her mid-30s.
“I believe a girl can have a baby every year and become prettier, have a lovelier complexion and better skin, with each newborn. I’m living proof of my theory.” — Jayne Mansfield
hi denise;) yes its refreshing to see a star like jane mansfield make such a comment. i never knew. especially when just about every starlett was aborting back then. you and i have read the bios. even had i gotten stretch marks it wouldnt have mattered to me. pretty much every woman i know went back into shape after pregnancy.
being worried about getting fat during pregnancy is not a good reason to abort. i would only hope that anyone who uses this as an excuse has more to the story.
heather says:
December 30, 2011 at 3:15 pm
anyway coleman should have given her son up for adoption. we have to be big girls and grow up some day and make choices. many women go to prison for making poor choices. many others have horrible stories and never did one day in jail. starving and abusing your son to death. i hope her state kills her. give her that needle asap!
(Denise) Lisa Coleman didn’t kill her own son. The boy was her lesbian lover’s son. The mother is also in prison but never given the death penalty because Coleman was the primary abuser.
The relationship between rape and the Lisa Coleman case is twofold. She is the product of a rape. A 12 year old girl was raped by a relative. The child gave birth to Lisa.
Thus, Lisa puts a face on conception by rape.
The child-mother was unable to take good care of Lisa. The girl was often shunted between relatives and foster homes. She was often punished brutally and severely — sometimes by having food withheld for lengthy periods. A child of rape, she was herself raped more than once.
Denise: It seems to me that “an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.”
Denise, I certainly agree with you that preventing an unwanted pregnancy is vastly preferable to having an abortion. General administration of birth-control hormones (or whatever the exact method would be) isn’t going to get much support, though, not from pro-choicers or pro-lifers.
On a case-by-case basis (no “dumping hormones in the water supply” involved, here) I’d say that as far as unwanted pregnancies, an ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure, and many pro-lifers agree. Of course, many pro-lifers disagree, too.
So that’s why I repeatedly put it to everyone: How can we prevent females who aren’t willing to carry to term from getting pregnant in the first place?
yes denise i had to run it through my search engine to read a bit more into it. it doesnt matter whos child he was. these 2 had no business harming torturing and killing this boy. they both needed their behinds whupped! i hope the state kills both of them. better yet starve them to their own death!
denise you ask some questions that could have many answers. im just going to say that since abortion clinics DO NOT REPORT RAPE we need to shut them down. rape and incest are often one in the same but the older man can just take her in for an abortion. this country is cracking and i just heard on the news obama will be here next week again. lets start by getting rid of abortion clinics.
Hey Meghan, I saw your comment before it was deleted. Whether you regret your abortion or not, I think it is disrespectful for people to minimize the concerns you had surrounding your pregnancy, and I’m sorry.
as i said before denise i am pro death penalty. give both of them the needle of death. i believe some people need to pay for their crimes with their lives. unborn children are innocent.
oprah winfrey was also a rape victim. she gave birth to her uncles child but the child was stillborn. she was 14 at the time she gave birth. she didnt let it ruin her.
It’s not about not “letting” abuse ruin you, it’s about finding ways to cope with the damage it did. Some people do a better job than others. However, if you are hurting someone, people need to be protected from you. I don’t like the retribution aspect of our legal system, it doesn’t seem to solve anything or bring victims peace. I really wish people thought more about rehabilitation, prevention, and protection rather than vengeance.
Michael Ejercito,
You think mothers have the right to kill the intruder in her womb (neglecting the fact that he or she is half native in origin, and now totally home-grown).
Why do I suspect that you wouldn’t support someone killing invaders along the El Paso river?
jack i agree with you about a few things. prison time for drug addicts? they should be diverted to treatment. ive met crack addicts and heroin addicts and alcoholics who leave prison and go in search of the bar or the dope man that same day.
I certainly agree with that. I spent my entire time in jail thinking about getting high, rehab was what actually helped. I do think people who commit violent crimes need to be kept away from society, but I am still anti-DP.
And an invader is an invader, no matter whether they were born.
Yes, it is a longstanding ethical principle regarding homicide.
I would.
and i think Indiana passed a law that a person will do 10 years for writing a bad check? wow thats harsh. prison does not rehabilitate. prison recycles. it should be reserved for violent people murderers rapists and child molestors..my opinion.
I agree, Heather. I think having people give back to the community, rehabilitate, all kinds of other things could be done for non violent offenses. I think throwing non-violent offenders in with the violent ones creates more violent offenders.
jack…youre right. they bulk up and come out worse!
Wow, Michael, you’re even tougher on illegal immigration than I am.
Denise,
Jack London also puts a face on conception by rape. So does the evangelist James Robison, and millions more.
It’s not where you start, it’s where you finish.
Denise: So that’s why I repeatedly put it to everyone: How can we prevent females who aren’t willing to carry to term from getting pregnant in the first place?
Just as in reply to Abe vigoda’s plea in ‘The Godfather,’ – “Sorry, Sally, can’t do it.”
An unborn baby in a rape-caused pregnancy is not bystanding in any sense of the word, but is an active participant in an invasion of a womb.
Of course, the unborn babies incinerated in Tokyo and Dresden were bystanders in every sense of the word. And no one can seriously argue that unborn babies killed by napalm or plutonium are any less dead than unborn babies killed by stainless steel or RU-486.
Does Rebecca believe in a “war” exception to abortion?
For Sarah~
I am so sorry for what your father did to you. As an incest survivor myself, I wonder:
1) Do you know if there were other rape victims in addition to you, family members included?
2) If you have the opportunity to meet someone kind who was conceived during incestuous rape,
would you ever wonder about how your own children might have turned out, if they might have been more like you considering you’ve far outlived your father?
3) The openness and patience of your responses indcates to me that you are quite strong and healing well. (Of course I don’t know you, this is just an observation.) I would gently challenge you on your belief that you couldn’t have handled bearing children and even loving them, despite the horrible and very unfair circumstances of thier origin. Obviously the abortion decision wasn’t yours. After so many years, do you let yourself wonder if the forced abortions were the best way?Do you think it might be easier to accept that part of your abuse than face all the implications of what might have been?
Again, as one incest survivor to another, I do wish you the fullest amount of healing. Peace to you.
Thank you, Mary Anne. I appreciate your kindness and your intent.
P.S. I don’t feel like I can talk anymore about it right now. Thanks.
I’m sorry Sarah. Take care of yourself.
An unborn baby in a rape-caused pregnancy is not bystanding in any sense of the word, but is an active participant in an invasion of a womb.
How do you figure that one?
In a twisted, ridiculous way.
Under not all circumstances is pregnancy a blessing, especially in abusive relationships. For example, Tina Turner’s marriage to Ike. For abusers, getting a woman pregnant (sometimes against her will by forcible sex and/or refusing to use a condom or birth control sabatge) is another way to control her and convince her to stay. It’s called reproductive coercion:
http://www.knowmoresaymore.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/factsheet-on-rh-and-dv-nov-2010.pdf (requires Adobe Acrobat)
I myself am in a verbally/emotionally abusive relationship and if I were to get pregnant with him, I don’t think I would continue the pregnancy because I eventually want to leave him and I don’t think this is a healthy relationship to raise a child in.
Wondering,
Please leave. NOW. Please. Before an innocent child is conceived and killed.
I was in an abusive relationship. He tried to kill me. He tried to rape me. He wanted to get me pregnant so I would never be rid of him. I left.
Leave. NOW.
A child in the womb is innocent. The mother needs to leave abuse to find safety for BOTH of them.
I will help you find resources in your area.
carla@jillstanek.com
Carla,
Easier said than done. I’ve left him at least 3 or 4 times before, but went back to him after promises of change and showered with affection. I’ve been in contact with the local domestic violence agency and they are aware of my situation.
Wondering, Some of us here know all about “easier said than done.” Once children are in the mix, it becomes even more difficult to leave. There is hope, healing and freedom. There are many who are willing to help.
You already realize that what he is doing is abuse and that he is playing games to get you back. You understand about men using children to control women (this can go the other way, of course, too).
Understanding the problem is a big first step. Working on yourself is the next big step. There comes a time when you need to take responsibility as well. Once you understand what’s going on is the time.
I have children with an abusive man. The circumstances surrounding their conceptions and the choices their dad has made and continues to make does nothing to change the fact that they were and are blessings. I owe so much to the women who helped me see what was going on in my last marriage and encouraged me.
You cannot change him but you can change yourself. If you don’t feel the agency you’ve been in contact has been helpful, contact Carla. There are many helpful folks you may not even be aware of. Please reach out.
Jespren says:
December 30, 2011 at 1:14 pm
Denise Noe, one of the reasons I think people tend to ignore your questions is you tend to focus on the wrong issue. The question isn’t “How do we avoid pregancies through rape?” The preganacy isn’t the problem, it is a (rare!) side effect to the problem. Your question should be “how do we decrease rape?”
The answer to that is: reverse the sexual revolution. Rape used to be not only exceptionally rare but completely unacceptable and harshly punished. Then Kinsey, the father of the sexual revolutional, classified rape as “a victimless crime easily forgotten” and is quoted as saying “the only difference between rape and a good time is whether the father is awake when the girl gets home.” His preverted and wildly unscientific views were forced not only upon an unsuspecting populous but upon the legal system as well, which begane to look upon rape as a minor infraction and a ‘he said, she said’ situation.
(Denise) This reminds me of a book I read many years ago that was an anthology of writings by anti-pornography radical feminists. I know radical feminism is associated with pro-legal abortion but that book had little on that subject. One woman said, “Playboy isn’t playing” to indicate that the magazine was trying to change attitudes — for the worse — on subjects like incest and sex with minors.
I know Hugh Hefner has long been associated with having a small harem around him of women of prime reproductive age but we don’t hear about them having babies. I wonder: Has Hef had a vasectomy?
Or does he make some sort of agreement with them that they will abort if they get pregnant?
Wondering,
I never said it would be easy. I never assumed that it was. I have been there. It is not easy. And shame on anyone that tells you that it is or that they would have left sooner….blah, blah, blah.
BUT only YOU can decide when you have had enough. Only you can decide that you are deserving of love without abuse. Only you can allow it by staying.
There are support groups for abused women. The ones that have left the brutality have much to share with you.
This is my abuse story
http://fourby40.blogspot.com/2011/04/being-real-1.html
The unborn baby being in the womb via force, obviously.
Michael Ejercito,
I don’t understand how you can label a pre-born baby conceived in rape an invader in the womb. The invader was the evil rapist who impregnated the innocent woman. The child just happens to be the consequence. Your term “invader” sounds more like a cancerous tumor.
Michael Ejercito, in your example, the rapist is the invader. The proper analogy for the child conceived in rape would be, I suppose, a baby born in the US to an “invader” parent – only there as a result of the actions of his parents. He would have full US rights.
I can label pre-born humans as invaders the same way I label post-born humans as invaders.
Post-born humans do not have a right to invade a piece of land, let alone someone’s body. Ergo, under the pro-life thesis, pre-born humans do not have this right, either.
They place a lesser burden upon the United States as an unborn child places upon the pregnant girl or woman.
Alexandra: The proper analogy for the child conceived in rape would be, I suppose, a baby born in the US to an “invader” parent – only there as a result of the actions of his parents. He would have full US rights.
Well, you know that many people think that such “anchor babies” are a bad deal, right? ;)
It’s silly to impute any “guilt” or intent on the part of the unborn, regardless of the circumstances.
Nevertheless, do the circumstances of conception – here, rape – make a difference? Obviously, to huge numbers of people they do.
But “a baby born” takes things beyond the woman’s bodily autonomy, and thus that’s a mighty far-fetched analogy, i.e. despite immigration arguments, it ain’t nuttin’ like the abortion debate.
No, Michael, post-born humans DO have a right to invade a land, if it is being occupied by a regime that is slaughtering innocent humans. Would you have stood peacefully by singing “kumbaiah” (sorry-spelling) if you saw Jews being thrown into gas furnaces? Would you have stood by peacefully while Blacks/African-Americans were being lynched? Have you heard of the Just-War Theory? Your term of “invader” is warped. The child in the womb is an innocent. He/She is not an invader. The rapist was the invader. You are comparing apples and oranges when you compare an invader of a foreign land to the pre-born child in the womb.
Michael: Post-born humans do not have a right to invade a piece of land, let alone someone’s body. Ergo, under the pro-life thesis, pre-born humans do not have this right, either.
I’ve made this point too, fairly frequently – that if somebody is walking down the street, that is one thing. But if they were *inside the body of a person* then that is certainly going to change things massively.
I don’t think you can extend the land-invasion (property rights, I assume) deal to pregnancy, really, since societal rights of us to our bodies and our property aren’t the same, overall.
It’s also not necessarily the “rights of the pregnant woman” versus the unborn. The unborn have no rights, unless you view the restrictions on abortion that we have – later in gestation – as a limited form of rights and personhood (which I do, for one).
The question is really whether as a society we have a good enough reason to restrict the woman’s freedom in this respect. It’s not impossible that things would be different, i.e. were personhood attributed to the unborn, then most certainly the argument would be a different deal. As of now, it’s a question of the woman’s interest versus the interest of society, if any.
“They place less of a burden upon the United States as an unborn child places upon the pregnant girl or woman.”
According to who? Without sounding that I am not sympathetic to the poor girl/woman that is raped and gets pregnant, how can you be so sure that the United States is not burdened by the thousands and thousands of immigrants that have babies here in the US? They are invaders of the US and then we legal citizens have to foot the bill for the baby or babies that are the children of these illegals. How is that not a burden on my family?
Once again, please don’t think my heart does not ache for these poor girls/women that get raped and abused and used as trash. The act of rape and incest is the evil. The child is innocent.
Doe: No, Michael, post-born humans DO have a right to invade a land, if it is being occupied by a regime that is slaughtering innocent humans.
;) :) Depends on which side one is on, eh? But yeah – there will often be such opinions, and hence, a debate. And maybe fighting. “Rodney King,” anybody?
___
Would you have stood peacefully by singing “kumbaiah” (sorry-spelling) if you saw Jews being thrown into gas furnaces? Would you have stood by peacefully while Blacks/African-Americans were being lynched? Have you heard of the Just-War Theory? Your term of “invader” is warped. The child in the womb is an innocent. He/She is not an invader.
You’re picking examples where there really isn’t significant opinion on one side. But circumstances can and do determine the “good/bad/right/wrong” in the moral realm, all the time, as with whether it’s “moral” to kill home-invaders, to execute convicted criminals for certain actions, etc.
“Just War” – is going to depend on who you ask, as always.
Doe: Without sounding that I am not sympathetic to the poor girl/woman that is raped and gets pregnant, how can you be so sure that the United States is not burdened by the thousands and thousands of immigrants that have babies here in the US?
Doe, very valid question. There are many arguments, pro and con, for immigration, and for illegal immigration. Myself, I’m against illegals, on-balance. This is not a black-and-white thing, since illegals often do jobs that us “legals” don’t want to do, thus enriching our economy, paying Social Security taxes for benefits to which they’re not entitled, etc. And there are certainly negative factors.
So, “is the US burdened, overall,” by illegal immigrants? I don’t know…. At the end of the day, despite my innate reluctance to engage in ‘protectionism,’ i.e. “keep ’em all out,” here, I’m not for amnesty (after being in the US for a given number of years) or even the time-honored “citizen of the US” if born on US territory. That ties in with the fact that in many places US wages are being allowed to fall to the point where we again can compete against foreign countries.
___
They are invaders of the US and then we legal citizens have to foot the bill for the baby or babies that are the children of these illegals. How is that not a burden on my family?
Well hey – “we legal citizens” (us taxpayers, anyway) have to foot the bill for a huge number of babies born to US citizens, too. It’s *all* a burden.
“Well, you know that many people think that such “anchor babies” are a bad deal, right?”
Of course, Doug. I’m not arguing in favor of or opposition to current laws. We don’t kill illegal immigrants and we don’t even deport their children. I really hate poorly thought-out analogies, basically. If you’re going to argue bodily autonomy, argue bodily autonomy.
Pregnancy isn’t a minor side effect of rape. I believe that any fertile female who wasn’t using contraceptives would be terrified in the immediate aftermath of rape that she might be pregnant. She would wait in panic for her menstrual period.
It’s partly to prevent that panic — as well as to prevent abortion — that I suggest all fertile females who aren’t trying to get pregnant use contraceptives.
Think about this: If you were a fertile female and you had to get raped, wouldn’t you prefer it be in a manner that doesn’t lead to pregnancy?
If someone left a bag of gold dust on your front step and you threw it on the compost heap, you’d be called shamefully wasteful for not giving it away to charity, wouldn’t you?
If someone left the proverbial baby in the picnic basket on your front step amd amd upi threw it on the compost heap, you’d be called a murderer.
Your property, your rules. Your body, your rules. Unless you harm or fail to help others. We are a socity. Not seven billion hermits, as much as some would like it to be.
First New Year’s Resolution:
Carefully reread comment until Edit Function returns.
Denise:
Wow how is it that you can state emphatically that Lisa Coleman is the way she is absolutely as a result of her being conceived in incest?
That is absolutely the most prejudicial statement!
I have a friend who is the eighth child of incest and has seven siblings. NONE not one have done anything even remotely similar to Lisa.
I know others who also were conceived in incest and don’t act that way.
It is unfortunate that we have mental illness just as it is unfortunate that cancer and every other horror on earth occurs. We have a fallen world devoid of their need for a Savior. It will continue until He returns.
And to say that a woman’s baby is only the rapist’s is horribly hurtful. I am my mother’s child too. Ya think anyone would insult a woman if she was carrying an idiot’s child. “oh abort that baby because the father is a drunk and a thief” or “your baby’s father is less than desirable so why don’t you kill it”
You forget that the baby is HER child. You want her to kill HER child and you insult her for saying she is only a CARRIER? Should we dissect all fathers before allowing women to get pregnant? Sounds kind of Hitleresque Hmmm why don’t we sterilize all the undesirable males?
If you really want to help women, do something to stop rape because killing the child does not end rape but it does end a life-sometimes two.
Just found out the woman I was talking to who was suicidal was in a mental hospital. At 65 lbs she WAS almost dead. The reason was because she took the advice of people like you and killed HER baby conceived in rape. But funny how NONE of those people were by her dying side. NO they just pretend nothing is wrong and she made the right choice.
Oh and FYI people get pregnant even on the pill and using condoms. So if you teach half truths you’re going to suffer FULL consequences.
Pre born humans have rights. They can be named in wills and it is legal and binding. They are also given the right to sue if damage was done to them in the womb.
If the mother WANTS the baby and someone kills her child she can file charges of murder.
Funny how the baby is only a baby when the mother wants the child. Invader? Really people stop playing games. We all see the man behind the curtain.
Juda says:
January 1, 2012 at 7:34 am
Denise:
Wow how is it that you can state emphatically that Lisa Coleman is the way she is absolutely as a result of her being conceived in incest?
That is absolutely the most prejudicial statement!
I have a friend who is the eighth child of incest and has seven siblings. NONE not one have done anything even remotely similar to Lisa.
I know others who also were conceived in incest and don’t act that way.
(Denise) I didn’t say it was JUST because she was conceived in incest. She was not conceived in consensual incest. She was conceived in incestuous rape. Again, you ought to look on her as a kind of sister since she was, like you, conceived in rape.
Her personality malformation was the result of a series of hideous abuses that BEGAN with her conception in incestuous rape. She was brutally mistreated in a childhood that included being raped multiple times and punished severely in ways that included denial of food for long periods. The truth is that society failed to protect her mother, failed to protect Lisa Coleman, and failed to protect the child, Devontae, that she and her lesbian lover killed. The entire society is to some extent responsible for the deformed human being that is Lisa Coleman.
Do we have the right to take her life? As a culture, we are in large responsible for the horror that she is and the horror that she inflicted.
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(Denise) It is genetically half hers and half that of her rapist.
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(Denise) No, I DON’T want ANYONE to have an abortion! I regard abortion as ugly and evil. As a teenager in high school, I spent almost all my time in my room in order to avoid pregnancy. I regarded abortion as horrible but wasn’t sure I could carry to term so believed my primary duty as a fertile female was to avoid pregnancy.
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(Denise) Again, I DON’T want ANYONE to abort. I want to prevent pregnancies that might end in the horror of abortion.
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(Denise) I would NOT have given her such advice — ever!!!!!!! See my posts above about the possible relationship between abortion and suicide in the “Oldenburg Baby” case and the definite relationship between abortion and suicide in another.
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(Denise) Again, it is important to prevent pregnancies if the female isn’t prepared to carry to term. I am against abortion.
Juda, you may not like me but I have a book recommendation for you — and I believe you will like this book very much. It is the novel “Son of the Morning” by Joyce Carol Oates. In the novel, 15-year-old Elsa Vickery is the victim of an especially brutal gang-rape. Her little finger is pulled out of its socket and she is left to walk home bleeding without her underpants.
Her father wants her to have an abortion but it’s illegal. Elsa doesn’t want an abortion. She bears a child, Nathan Vickery — who grows up to a be world famous Christian evangelist.
Denise, have you ever read Survivor by Chuck Palahniuk? He is not one of my favorite authors by any measure, he’s pretty popular. I ask because (SPOILERS! from more than a decade ago!) in this book, it turns out that the narrator’s cult society forced children to watch childbirths, dissociated from such realities as the wonder of love and new life, to traumatize them and turn them away from sex/intimacy on a visceral, subconscious level. Removed from context, childbirth – and so many other things in the world – are simply awful. I am not saying that it wouldn’t necessarily be or feel “awful” for a woman to become pregnant from rape – I am saying, you’d be hard-pressed to find any girl anywhere who would sign on for the possibility of pregnancy EVER IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES after your description.
You also only describe one side of the “awfulness.” Birth control is not necessarily awful but it’s not all peaches and cream either. Women should choose to use it after making an informed decision that WEIGHS ALL FACTORS IN CONTEXT. The choice is not birth control or rape pregnancy – it’s birth control or the RISK of rape pregnancy. And that can seem like a subtle difference, but risk and likelihood come into the decisions we make all the time. (Would you like to hurtle at 60mph into a tangle of steel? No? Then why would you ever get into a car? Oh, right, because the RISK of that outcome is fairly low.) ie, for me, honestly, even with no other negative aspects, I really really hate the idea of taking a pill every day. Odds are that I will not be raped, and if, god forbid, I am raped, odds are that I will not get pregnant from it. So for me, a pill every single day for decades is worse than the minute risk of pregnancy via rape.
Some women may choose differently, fine. But your offered explanation takes into account none of that.
Er, I mean to say, “He is not my favorite author by any measure, BUT he’s pretty popular.” I didn’t mean to sound like one of those literary-elitist jerks!
Alexandra: The proper analogy for the child conceived in rape would be, I suppose, a baby born in the US to an “invader” parent – only there as a result of the actions of his parents. He would have full US rights.
“Well, you know that many people think that such “anchor babies” are a bad deal, right? ;)”
Alexandra: Of course, Doug. I’m not arguing in favor of or opposition to current laws. We don’t kill illegal immigrants and we don’t even deport their children. I really hate poorly thought-out analogies, basically. If you’re going to argue bodily autonomy, argue bodily autonomy.
Sure, Alexandra, and I wasn’t arguing bodily autonomy, there, wasn’t even arguing anything. Just noting that babies of “invader” parents *are* a topic where there is substantial disagreement about what their status should be. Granted that it’s a much different argument than what the abortion debate is.
And okay, if we’re going to argue bodily autonomy and look for analogies, then I did say:
“But “a baby born” takes things beyond the woman’s bodily autonomy, and thus that’s a mighty far-fetched analogy, i.e. despite immigration arguments, it ain’t nuttin’ like the abortion debate.”
Yeah, Doug, I know you weren’t arguing bodily autonomy. The person I was responding to was trying to discuss “national autonomy” and “bodily autonomy,” and referred to a poorly-thought-out analogy, which I pointed out. Because, like I said: “I really hate poorly thought-out analogies, basically. If you’re going to argue bodily autonomy, argue bodily autonomy.” I know YOU weren’t arguing bodily autonomy – I wasn’t talking to you at all until you started talking about anchor babies and I had to point out that I was talking about the analogy, not about the pros and cons of our current treatment of anchor babies.
If so, then it is murder for anyone , even the defenders, to kill them.
It is a burden on your family.
Then again, your family does not have to provide a direct biological link to these invaders.
A rape victim’s womb is not equivalent to a front step. A baby left on the front step is less of a burden than the baby forced into a rape victim’s womb.
Abortion used to be illegal in every instance except the life of the female being threatened. There was no exception for rape or incest. Since pregnancy is a natural function, it was believed that females didn’t have to consent to be put through it. It was also held that the value of a life is greater than the value of an ordeal, however horrible and life scarring. Insanity or deep depression is still life.
“If so, then it is murder for anyone, even the defenders to kill them.”
Am I reading you correctly? Are you saying that all killing is the same? Are you equating a person defending oneself by killing the perpetrator to the perpetrator killing the person?
The key words are if so . It was in response to this.
You are right.
Societal rights of us to our bodies are greater than societal rights to our property.
You would do well to avoid strawman arguments and quoting out of context.
There are many substantial differences between pregnancy resulting from rape and a foreign invasion. Invaders deliberately enter a country, while unborn babies do not consciously gestate. A closer analogy would be a toddler from an enemy nation accidentally wandering across a national border. Even if there is a war taking place, it would be murder to kill the toddler.
Invaders are also generally dangerous, and killing them is often necessary to protect innocent lives. Pregnancy is, for the most part, very safe for the mother with modern medicine.
Invasions are also unnecessary for the most part (the invaders can simply go home). The nine months in utero is a basic, natural stage of human development that everyone must go through at the beginning of life.
A baby conceived in rape would be similar to a stowaway placed on a boat and left undiscovered until it is too late for the owner to return to shore. Suppose the journey takes nine months, and food is limited such that keeping the stowaway alive would result in starvation and discomfort for the owner (but not death). Would the owner be justified in throwing the involuntary stowaway overboard?
Oh really?
Wonder how many pregnancy complications occur in women with a prior abortion history.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/abortion/AN00633
Yeah.
Look up the term “desertion” and get back to me.