Stanek weekend question II: Do you know if your ob/gyn is pro-life?
Do you know if your ob/gyn is pro-life? Does it matter?
Reader Dawn suggested this weekend question, writing:
Why would a woman take her prenatal care needs to an abortionist?
We need to identify every single OB/GYN who either performs abortions or refers for abortions, to warn happily pregnant women about them.
Would a doctor who kills babies on the side work as hard to keep your baby alive during childbirth? Work as hard to keep you healthy during pregnancy? Work as hard to protect the baby from distress immediately after childbirth?
[Photo via Primera Luz Obstetrics/Gynecology]
Feb.25, 2012 8:34 am |
Weekend question |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
In 1 section of a hospital: A girl or woman is delivering prematurely. Medical personnel are doing everything possible to save the live of the prematurely delivered baby.
In another section of the SAME hospital: A girl or woman is having an abortion. Her pregnancy is just as far along as that of the aforementioned woman. The fetus is being systematically dismembered and its body parts placed in a pile.
I would think most women, let alone most pro-lifers, would want their OB to be prolife. I think a person’s family doctor should also be pro-life too.
pro-life ob/gyns are hard to find. I didn’t realize that until I was carrying my first son 5 years ago. The man who delivered my first son was not pro-life but was quick to inform me he did not do abortions. I stuck by my pro-life convictions and educated him on some ethics along the way. He was amazed at how strongly pro-life I was but I think in the end he respected my convictions.
When I got pregnant again I wanted a pro-life ob/gyn so I called my local pro-life society and asked them who they could recommend. And that is how I found my current pro-life ob/gyn.
I should say pro-life ob/gyns are hard to find because while many ob/gyn’s will say “I support a woman’s right to choose an abortion” none of them actually want to dirty their hands doing it. They are quick to assure patients that THEY don’t do abortions while supporting the bloodshed through words nonetheless.
I just switched OB/GYns–I will have to ask. I wonder if she ever IS asked?
My ob/gyn is 100% prolife (doesn’t prescribe contraceptives) and shares my prolife convictions. He is also on the Respect Life Advisory Board in the Diocese of Joliet.
I Googled “pro-life OB/GYNs” after my old gynecologist laughed in my face when I told her my husband and I were going to practice NFP. I have PCOS, which makes my cycles completely unpredictable, so she assumed (in her complete ignorance that NFP isn’t just the rhythm method) that I would be unable to prevent being continuously pregnant until menopause.
Ever since, I’ve been happily a patient at Tepeyac Family Center in Fairfax, VA, where they are strongly pro-life and do a lot of pro bono crisis pregnancy work. I never have to worry that they’ll pressure me to terminate a pregnancy, use birth control or sterilize if I have six kids.
I highly recommend searching Google for your own pro-life practice.
I haven’t asked my ob/gyn if she is pro-life, but I know that she doesn’t do abortions. (There is only one abortionist in our area, and it’s a man.) Her practice leans more toward the ob than the gyn– there are always visibly pregnant women in the waiting room. So I suspect she’s pro-life, but I’m not positive.
i know my exes sister has 8 kids and she seeks out pro life doctors. indeed as sydney said many dont identify as pro life but they also want you to know they dont want any part of performing abortions. as a nurse myself i have my own feelings about a lot of things and you really cant voice it on your job. im sure plenty of doctors are just as disgusted by abortions but they have no choice but to render care and keep their opinions to himself/herself. there is a hospital near me…parma hospital and my friend from snm called to see if they performed abortions. we just wanted to see. their reply? a snappy “NOPE. we dont do that here”!!!!!! you go Parma!
ive spoken to plenty of nurses who indeed respect life. im a geriatric nurse. how would anybody feel if your parents doctor offered to smother your loved one with a pillow? people who dont respect life shouldnt bother going into medicine. whats the point?
One of the reasons abortion was legalized in the first place was that doctors were tired of dealing with the consequences of illegal abortions. Yes, I know there are Kermit Gosnell and other such under legal abortion. However, the fact is that, when abortion was illegal, not every girl or woman automatically had the attitude of pregnancy acceptance that abortion’s illegality is supposed to cause. They often ended up in the hospital with all kinds of horrible results from the illegal abortion. Doctors often had to do emergency work on women who may have had all kinds of gross things put inside themselves by illegal abortionists.
A doctor may highly value and love life but believe that outlawing abortion doesn’t stop it but tends to drive it underground.
OK: in the best of all possible worlds, only girls and women prepare to carry to term get pregnant. I work for that world and so do you.
But doctors might believe that abortion must be legal in THIS world to avoid having women come in because someone put Lysol in wombs as was done to Margot Kidder when she had an illegal abortion.
i will say that i go to a teaching hospital because its close and you often get students. i got this dumb obgyn one day and i told her i was anti abortion. i didnt appreciate it when she turned into a snob and said ” youve been reading too much right wing prpaganda.” she wanted to talk me into an iud and she trotted down the hall and returned with a stack of left wing propaganda. she added ” if men had to push a baby out of their penis there wouldnt be any children.” the student and i exchanged a look.. mine was one of ” so sorry you got stuck with that crazy witch.” she looked mortified to be stuck with her. she even looked like a witch. Colleen Krejewski. you know what you did! and you know what you are. im sure she loves exterminating children as she sees fit and playing God. i threw her left wing propaganda in the trash and told the front desk i never wanted to see her again. they respected that and i never did.;)
I was prolife throughout my 50 year nursing career. I never would have trusted a pro abortion doctor as my ob/gyn. Doctors who perform or refer for abortions clearly are lacking moral integraty and cannot be trusted. It would seem reasonable for women to call and ask whether or not the doctor performs or refer for abortion services. If enough people did that, soon they would be letting the consumers know where they stand. Women need to be proactive when it comes to their own care. Husbands need to be proactive as well. The medical profession has had way too much power in this regard. As patients we are vulnerable especially in crisis. There is no excuse in this day and age not to become fully informed as to ones options.
Janet says:
February 25, 2012 at 11:17 am
I was prolife throughout my 50 year nursing career.
(Denise) What period did you career start?
If it was during the period when abortion was illegal, do you believe girls or women automatically accept pregnancies and carry to term when abortion is outlawed?
Denise…
Why are you still harping on all this b.s. that even the founder of NARAL has said was b.s.? Seriously. WHY?
Watched any tabloids recently? People who get famous in the entertainment industry ALSO tend to be vapid morons who do terrible things to their bodies with or without being pregnant. Not exactly renowned for their brilliance, morals, scruples, or even their sense of self-preservation. So, of course you’re going to hear a lot of horror stories in this regard from entertainers. When most of the women doing this kind of thing to themselves have full control of a microphone and a national audience, of course you’re going to hear more about that than what happens when the majority of sane women get pregnant.
When the BCP was developed, it was like candy in a candy store for many, including the mothers of young girls. Mothers were advised by physicians to put their daughters on BCPs especially if they were thought to be sexually active. Prior to that, homes for unwed mothers were quite common. Yes,most pregnant unmarried women either married the father or went to the homes where the children were either kept by the family or given up for adoption. This is back in the days when most marriages lasted. Look at the data, read the newspapers, the BCP did absolutely NOTHING to improve the quality(not quantity) of life. The only abortion, I knew about personally was of a friend of mine whose girlfriend, a daughter of an ob/gyn MD had been aborted which in my memory was a horror story and destroyed the lives of those young people. I might also add the the college student health knew they had found a “Gold Mine”. Sorry folks, health care for profit can be extremely dangerous to the health and well being of all Americans!!! A health care system without medical and nursing ethics scares the “living daylights: out of me. I beg people to become informed. Some people will justify anything for a high income.
We had a horrible situation occur in TN when a popular OB/GYN especially popular with homeschooling moms and those that favor midwifery close her full time practice to take a part time job as an abortionist. Those who thought so highly of her went to her to plead with her for the sake of her soul. She said she had the blessing of her pastor and she could make more money working part time as an abortionist and have more time to spend with her own children. I kid you not. Can you imagine how despondent those who believed in her so strongly felt?
I had a situation with a new GYN that I went to see. I am not in my child bearing years. I came back to the examination room and saw a large political sign up on her door that led me to believe she may be pro choice. It was not a campaign year so I was astounded since the election had been over for years. I asked the nurse about it and then asked if she was pro life and when the answer was evasive I got up off the table and got dressed and left telling them I could not see such a dr. Funny that I had a bad feeling from the time I entered the office and even before I saw the sign.
wow susie! it was the same feeling i had when that creep Krejewski measured my then pregnant tummy. my baby kicked hard as her cold hands touched me. i realized the hands of a killer just touched me. we were discussing options for after the birth. did i want a tubal? she thought an iud would be good. thats when i realized she wasnt about “choice” at all. she was even happy to explain that i could get my tubes tied ” without your husbands consent.” why was that a good thing? i guess she doesnt get the fact that marriage is about trust. i just knew id never let that woman touch me again.
Yes, my ob/gyn is pro-life. She has been very compassionate regarding my multiple miscarriages, because she says she had NINE herself. Of course, that makes me wonder what kind of doctor SHE has. When we were discussing my last loss about two years ago, she said “When it’s this early, they refer to it as a ‘chemical pregnancy’…but WE know what it is, don’t we?” (meaning, “we know it’s a baby”.)
She is not a “high-risk” specialist though, as when I had our daughter, I had to go to another clinic for the duration of my pregnancy, and I don’t know if any of those doctors are pro-life or not. I saw mostly “nurse practitioners”.
AAPLOG.org has a directory of pro-life doctors.
and susie i give you credit for leaving! i complained after the fact. i know that having a doctor fired IS possible because ive done it. ive lost respect for a lot of these clowns because they can read from a book pass tests BUT it didnt give them an ounce of common sense. i guess anyone can pass med school these days. i know im just a nurse but its unreal to observe these crazy “doctors” and a rock has more sense. we patients need to start speaking up because our right to be pro life is slipping away. if Krejewski is really pro choice then why did she get upset that i was anti abortion? thats my CHOICE!
I would never knowingly see a pro-abortion/abortionist doctor for care. In this day and age, however, where doctors and nurses have been fired, forced to retire, and sued because someone posing as a Christian/pro-life/other religious has gone to the medical board, newspaper, lawyer, politician because the doctor felt comfortable enough to share what he thought were shared values during a ‘professional’ encounter, I feel it would be unkind and unfair to ask them directly. Such a question could very well be asking them to choose between their livelihood and their personal ethics. It’s good to know there are sites that keep track of that sort of thing though.
Sometimes we need to choose between what good and what is evil and trust that God will bless us for doing what is right… for Christians, can you imagine Jesus Christ performing an abortion for his next meal? Hardly… and still He is willing to forgive those who repent of doing the same thing and starting a new page in their lives as pro life.
yes. some doctors devote their lives to saving lives. i just cant believe any doctor would ever think doing abortions was a good idea. even greed couldnt / wouldnt make me sell my soul. i dont know what is wrong with their minds…killing a womans child and wrecking her life…yeah thats good medicine.
Generally if they are OBs that don’t perform abortions their political views don’t influence how they deliver babies. That is my experience, anyway. Most doctors want to deliver healthy babies. I doubt their political views truly play into it.
Kate S , I totally agree, most of medical, nursing people connot fathom it…
xalisae says:
February 25, 2012 at 12:09 pm
Denise…Why are you still harping on all this b.s. that even the founder of NARAL has said was b.s.? Seriously. WHY?
(Denise) Nathanson said they exaggerated the figures of how many girls and women died in illegal abortions. He didn’t say the stories of unplanned and unwanted pregnancies were invented or that the stories of abortions were invented. When I read biographies of famous women — not just women in the entertainment business — they tend to fall into 1 of 3 categories: 1) Women who had abortions (Lillian Hellman, Anais Nin, Maria Callas, and many others) 2) Women who were lifelong celibates and 3) Women who were lifelong lesbians.
I’ve also read about non-famous women who had abortions or committed suicide when confronted with a problem pregnancy.
I find abortion extremely depressing and upsetting. Remember, X, I went to a great, great deal of trouble to AVOID aborting! My high school years were spent confined to my room so I wouldn’t be exploited by boys. I feared contact with other people would lead to a heterosexual relationship. Then even after getting a boyfriend I avoided that sort of sex leading to pregnancy until I was 24 and sterilized. I want to discourage abortion.
If in fact abortion was rare when it was illegal, couldn’t it also be rare NOW? I’ve suggested before that I believe this to be possible. Legalizing it wouldn’t necessarily cause a huge jump in the amount of it. Perhaps the LEGAL figures are inflated or they actually are relatively less than in previous eras.
I wasn’t able to find any pro-life doctors in my area at the AAPLO wesbite so, I decided to call my new ob/gyn (prior to my first appointment) and asked if they provide abortions or provide referrals. The receptionist said they no to both.
Ok, so then I called the find a doctor number for the health system/hospital the practice is affiliated with, posing as a woman with an unplanned pregnancy & wanting an abortion, and neither the hospital or ob/gyn practices affiliated with the hospital provide or refers for elective abortions.
However, with that said, while the practice & hospital system doesn’t support abortion, I don’t know how my ob/gyn personally feels about abortion.
I am in between doctors and too overwhelmed with life to find a new one and ask.
My family doc is pro-life and saw me through my last pregnancy but couldn’t deliver my son. That was left up to whatever on-duty OB/GYN was available. I was a little nervous about that, and should have done my homework.
Frankly, I’m still sad at losing my Catholic provider when our family had to switch insurance companies. The care was superb, gentle, up-to-date, and understanding. Now I have to instruct ignorant doctors about NFP (we use the Creighton method) and my views on handling severe endometriosis.
I have to say I think this area of medicine is going downhill. Non-invasive, non-chemical methods are ignored while doctors push pills that don’t treat the problem. Women are left in the dark when their doctors don’t learn or know about current methods of NFP. The reproductive field in the US is at least 40 years behind the research. How many times have I had to say, “no, I don’t use the rhythm method”? Its laughable.
Going back to pro life doctors, this post is a good reminder for me. Thanks.
Yes, my og/gyn is pro-life and that was a priority when I decided to go with their group. They are ALL pro-life.
Pro-life doctors should be advertising the fact. They might lose business to begin with, but I would hope that word would get around in pro-life circles. Good for the doctors that do already!
I pray that pro-life doctors who are afraid to take a stand on LIFE will receive the courage they need to help foster a culture of LIFE. Praying for the future of the medical profession in general. It looks like a rocky road ahead, especially if conscience protections are made illegal.
My OB is pro life, Catholic, and won’t even prescribe hormonal contraceptives of any kind. He’s an NFP only doctor. LOVE HIM!!!!
My OB Dr. is pro-life. He isn’t afraid to let you know either. After I had my abortion in 2001 (at a different place), I went to him for a check up a few months later. I broke down in tears crying at the mistake I had made. I asked if there were drugs I could take to get out of the depression. He told me that I didn’t need drugs, but I needed to get on my knees and pray to Jesus for forgiveness. He then handed me his card and told me I could go to church with him and his wife. I didn’t go (I mean, he’s my OB and he knew I had an abortion, LOL!) but a few years after that I did find Christ. I continue to use him as my OB and now have three living children and one on the way.
Is there some presumption that pro-choice OB/GYNs are not going to give good care?
If so, oh please….
Having an abortion is one thing, and a wanted pregnancy is another.
Megan, what about a pregnancy that the woman wants, but the oh-so-enlightened doctor thinks she shouldn’t want? Hmm?
Clarice, the doctor should present the medical and biological facts. If, in defiance of the woman’s wishes, the doctor says, “You should have an abortion,” then the woman should tell the doctor to go…. uh, do something to himself or herself
If, in defiance of the woman’s wishes, the doctor says, “You should have an abortion,” then the woman should tell the doctor to go…. uh, do something to himself or herself
Megan, ha – very well said. :) And that’s from a Pro-Choice standpoint as well as a Pro-Life one.
Having an abortion is one thing, and a wanted pregnancy is another.
Megan, what is the difference….other than in one you kill the child?
Is there some presumption that pro-choice OB/GYNs are not going to give good care?
Uh yah…. And they also give bad karma.
Megan, I have heard plenty of women, both on this site and elsewhere, talk about how their pro-choice OB/GYN has been insensitive toward them after a miscarriage, tried to push contraception on them and been dismissive about them wanting to use NFP, pushed abortion on them if they are carrying a child with special needs, or bragged openly about doing abortions, among other things.
Maybe a pro-choice OB/GYN will give good care, maybe not. But the things above are not things I want to deal with, and so I don’t want to take the risk. For my health, I need to feel comfortable with my doctor.
Also, my pro-life OB/GYN was the only one to actually try to figure out why I was having irregular periods instead of just handing out the pill, like others had done for years. Now that I’m trying to conceive, I appreciate that I am aware of any possible difficulties right away instead of finding out much later.
allie i liked your story…he sounds like a good man! also i forgot to mention in MY story that when i told Krejewski i was anti abortion she snapped ” i perform them.” there had to fix that. it wasnt just the contraception issue. it was the fact that she totally dissed me and ( as kate says) it was all about what SHE thought would be best for me.
i agree with you on that megan;) hoping you are pregnant soon Kate:) and yes the worst thing a doctor can do is tune you out. the doctor who saw me through my pregnancy was beyond excellent. his wife was also a doctor ( in another department ) and he was so excited about his first baby on the way. that guy listened and if one little thing was wrong i went for testing immediatly. i felt safe with him and with my last pregnancy i requested him. i was so sorry to hear hed moved to Washington.;(
Janet says:
February 25, 2012 at 12:13 pm
When the BCP was developed, it was like candy in a candy store for many, including the mothers of young girls. Mothers were advised by physicians to put their daughters on BCPs especially if they were thought to be sexually active. Prior to that, homes for unwed mothers were quite common.
(Denise) Do you believe that the Pill directly led to homes for unwed mothers becoming rare?
For Heather: I told you about a man who became an abortionist in the illegal abortion days. He did so because a distraught young woman came to him begging for an abortion. He refused and a few days later, read about her suicide.
In your opinion, what SHOULD he have done to honor this victimized woman?
Should he have confronted her family? He could have told them of her pregnancy and how their attitudes contributed to her suicide.
Should he have contacted a newspaper and publicized the reason for her suicide? Perhaps that would have worked to change people’s attitudes toward single women who get pregnant.
Please tell me what you believe he should have done.
i do not think he should have given her an abortion nor do i thing he should have started performing them. he very well could have aborted the suicidal woman and she may have killed herself anyway. how about trying to help her through the crisis? abortion doesnt ” fix ” a woman. it just brings about new problems. hes no hero in my book. i wouldnt be taking the blame for her suicide because there could have been much much more to the story.
Megan, absolutely a pro-choice obgyn would give inferior care during a wanted pregnancy. The *pregnancy* and *baby* are 100% identical in an ‘unwanted’ or ‘wanted’ pregnancy. Many women with troubles in their pregnancies report having to see many pro-choice obgyns who only advize abortion and refuse to help before finding a pro-life one that will. The very first ob I saw with my 1st pregnancy was clearly pro-choice, and she stated she would drop me from care if i refused to abort under circumstances she found necessary and flat out said she ‘didn’t think she could do that’ when I told her in cases of emergency or accident the baby’s life was to be given equal priority with mine once we reached viability and it was to be held in the highest possible regard until then. As far as I know she didn’t proform abortions, just recommended them, but very obviously this women would have given inferior medical prenatal care if the pregnancy, however wanted, wasn’t ‘perfect’. This isn’t an outlier, although her agressiveness probably was, it’s standard when it comes to issues with pregnancies.
its a fact that when abortion was legalized MORE women have them and MORE women have multiples. it began as a very private topic. it was an issue not taken lightly. now you hear about girls who have them ” just because.” i know a woman who is friends with a girl who was about 5 months pregnant. she was facing jail time so she used the baby as a good reason that she should NOT have to do any time crying “but im pregnant.” the judge agreed and dismissed the case. my friend said the girl went right to the abortion clinic after a few days had passed…smirking that shed played it off. this girl is pregnant and has 2 living kids. she also has had 4 abortions. i found that story rather disgusting. as well as disturbing.
heather says:
February 26, 2012 at 8:17 am
i do not think he should have given her an abortion nor do i thing he should have started performing them. he very well could have aborted the suicidal woman and she may have killed herself anyway. how about trying to help her through the crisis? abortion doesnt ” fix ” a woman. it just brings about new problems. hes no hero in my book. i wouldnt be taking the blame for her suicide because there could have been much much more to the story.
(Denise) There could have been more but what he knew is that she was a lovely, unmarried woman with an extremely conservative family. She came to him panicked by her pregnancy. A few days later he read of her suicide.
Should he have confronted her family?
Should he have contacted a newspaper and suggested attitudes toward unmarried pregnancy need to change?
Heather, I spent much of my life avoiding abortion. I’m not the enemy. When I hit puberty, I isolated myself to keep sperm away from my eggs. People commented, “She stays home a lot” and in my family “She’s always in her room.”
Denise Noe, do you comprehend the concept of ‘legalization’? Legalizing something ABSOLUTELY, 100% of the time increases it’s occurance. And in fact abortion rates skyrocketed after legalization. Furthermore, the issues you bring up *have not been* fixed by legalizing abortion. Women today still commit suicide over an unexpected pregnancy, even when they already have abortions scheduled! They still do stupid things like try to sell abort with coke, air, illegal drugs, herabl remedies of questionable safety, or physical harm.
There was a girl when I was a senior, a coworker of a friend. She got unexpectedly pregnant and didn’t want the baby. She had a scheduled abortion at the local PP, but she didn’t want ‘an abortion’, so she starved herself for a week and then drank a huge quantity of an herbal tea that she’d been told could cause miscarriage. She ‘miscarried’, she announced to those that knew that her doctor had said she’d miscarried due to extreme stress. She didn’t consider it to be an ‘abortion’, but a ‘natural’ miscarriage. There were several girls who had scripts for daily bcp but, instead of taking them daily, just took 5 pills after intercourse as a homemade ‘plan b’. They felt it was easier than remembering to take the pills daily.
People are stupid, and they do stupid things, legalizing abortion doesn’t stop stupid people from doing stupid things, it just means *other* people will now do ‘legal’ things because it’s legal.
Addressing Denise Noe’s question:
Abortion is associated with a markedly increased suicide rate, when compared to baseline, miscarriage, pregnancy, and childbirth. Good quality record linkage studies support this statement. Read here: http://afterabortion.org/2005/womens-suicide-rates-highest-after-abortion-new-study/ . Pay attention to the links to the original research at the bottom.
There are no studies showing that abortion prevents suicides.
It is medical malpractice to suggest a procedure closely associated with increased suicide rate, to a person who has been traumatized, or who is already having suicidal ideation .
We have come to expect medical malpractice from the abortionists as a matter of course.
oops my above post should have said that the doctor who saw me through my pregnancy with my second to last pregnancy was the excellent one. im pretty sure he was pro life as he always said ” lets listen to that babys heartbeat.”
And do you know if he/she has partners that are prolife? 18 years ago I went into labor and my precious son was delivered by the partner on call because my doctor was out of town. Little did I know that this doctor was the most notorious, brutal abortionist in the city. I only found out later when entering the prolife battleground in Maine. It still haunts me to this day that his evil hands were on my newborn baby.
To Collen S: I have POCS as well but I only have a 50% chance of having children. I had to be on medication or I would develop Type Two Diabetes and get Ovarian cancer. Which are two of the major symptoms of POCS (according to the Mayo Clinic) My mom has talked to two other women and hear another speak about POCS. One has type two, there other (the one who spoke) had a very hard time every having kids, had two miscarries and the third one almost had cancer but caught it in time. So my question to you is this: How can you have POCS and still practice NFP? Were you diagnosed early in your life or do you not have it as bad? I was caught at what my doctor called Stage two. (He is a Christian so he had a hard time telling what my options were)
also denise……what if he had performed the abortion and the girl had killed herself anyway. then hed be blaming himself anyway becase hed killed her and her child. a crisis is temporary. abortion is forever. same could be applied to suicide due to anything. ive known people whove killed themselves over money problems spouses divorcing them or failing health. these things usually turn around. you get through the grief and try to move on.
Denise, I made several suicide attempts as a teenager, so I can tell you this: without serious therapy and intervention, if it hadn’t been the pregnancy, it would have been something else that drove her over the edge. Abortion would have been like a band-aid on a hemorrhaging wound.
Heather, thank you so much for your good wishes!
kate im sorry to hear about those attempts. as i was trying to explain to denise that woman may have had issues with depression or issues with the man who made her pregnant. perhaps she thought the abortion was her answer. id actually be more worried about a suicidal woman wanting an abortion. she needed mental health help. many people dont remember the case of susan smith. i remember the case well and when a book came out about the smith case i bought a copy. susan smith killed her 2 young sons after driving her car to a local lake and allowed the car to roll into that lake while both boys were asleep in their carseats. smith planned to die with the boys but in the end she killed them and panicked. she kept up a story that the boys had been abducted by a stranger while she sat at a red light. she said they were abducted at knifepoint and kept up the charade for 9 days. the police finally began to realize that the story wasnt adding up because of the way smith explained the red light. anyway smith caved and confessed. divers found the boys still in their car seats holding hands. it turned out that prior to smith drowning her boys shed had an abortion after sleeping with a married man. she tried to kill herself after the abortion. smith struggled with despair but eventually married david smith. her 2 sons came of that marriage. it just made me wonder if smiths abortion and lack of healing drove her off the deep end. smith will never leave prison for her crime.
it turned out that prior to smith drowning her boys shed had an abortion after sleeping with a married man. she tried to kill herself after the abortion. smith struggled with despair but eventually married david smith. her 2 sons came of that marriage. it just made me wonder if smiths abortion and lack of healing drove her off the deep end.
(Denise) I’m currently researching the story of woman who actually did attempt suicide while in the process of killing her 2 young children. This woman had also had an abortion in her teen years.
Denise:
Legalizing it wouldn’t necessarily increase the numbers? Are you KIDDING me? Legalization along with the attempt at normalizing it…yeah. I think that would cause a HUGE jump. I can tell you how many people I know that would be recreational pot smokers right now if it wasn’t illegal, and let me tell you…that’s a lot of people. Seriously, dude. You are whacked out if you honestly believe that the numbers that were aborting back then are even CLOSE to comparable to the numbers who abort now.
Megan:
Having an abortion is one thing, and a wanted pregnancy is another.
No, they’re really not. It’s the same “thing” inside the mother in both instances, only, one of them is allowed to live and the other is killed. SPOILER: That “thing” is a child!
I think you’re all making the mistake of thinking that doctors who perform abortions automatically hate babies. That simply isn’t true! Any good doctor will prioritize his/her patients health and wishes, whether a termination or a healthy delivery are involved. A good pro-life doctor is certainly not going to risk harming a patient because he/she performs abortions or refers them out.
A prolife doctor would not perform abortions or refer them out!!!!!!! Do you not know what prolife means?!
My mistake– a pro-choice doctor. But seriously, being pro-choice doesn’t mean hating babies. I adore babies! That doesn’t mean that I think that every person who conceives one is willing or able to be a mother, and it certainly doesn’t mean that I have any right to tell them what to do with their body.
So…you adore babies…but not every person who conceives a baby is willing or able to be a mother…so they should be allowed to kill those babies (not THEIR bodies, by the way)? How does that follow? There are at least 2 glaring contradictions that I can see in what you’ve said, just at first glance.
1.) You love babies, but it’s ok to kill some babies.
2.) Nobody has a right to tell anyone what to do with their body, but if they’re using their body to kill someone else, it’s not just THEIR body.
I think you’re all making the mistake of thinking that doctors who perform abortions automatically hate babies. That simply isn’t true!
No, I don’t think that at all. But it doesn’t really matter how much someone likes/doesn’t like babies in this case. The bottom line is this: if someone does not respect the rights of every human being–born or not–to life and health and freedom from violence, then the last think I’m going to trust them with is my health. And this, for me, isn’t just an OB/GYN thing. I couldn’t trust my health to any doctor who supported abortion. The mentality of “They may be humans, but under X circumstances, they aren’t people.” is not one I want involved in my health care on any level whatsoever.
While I do adore babies, that would be a very superficial reason to be against legal abortion. I honestly have no clue when life begins. I’ve scoured the Bible and found nothing that tells me that information in no uncertain terms. The oft-cited Bible verse about God knowing us in our mothers’ wombs tells me a lot about predestination but nothing about where life begins. Science can’t tell us when life begins, either– all we know is that once the baby is born, we know that it’s a human life. Other than that, people are free to make up their own minds on the issue, or to follow their own religions. I certainly do not have the right to go up to someone who believes that ensoulment happens at four months and tell them that they are wrong and that they can’t have an abortion because I believe differently. We don’t live in a theocracy!
I’ve completed college bio. They’re pretty clear on when a new organism is formed after the combination of gametes in sexual reproduction.
Science can’t tell us when life begins, either…
I’m sorry, but this simply isn’t true. There is not simply “broad agreement” on this fact in the scientific community, there is consensus. A new human being is formed at conception. As far as the scientific definition of life, we do know when it begins.
…all we know is that once the baby is born, we know that it’s a human life.
Obviously, I’ve already addressed the antecedent to this statement, but even if I hadn’t, this would still be incredibly problematic. Because by saying, “We can’t be sure if the unborn are alive, and therefore we permit abortion.” you are taking a position that errs on the side of killing people, rather than not doing so. Because, if you are unsure whether the unborn are alive or not, then they might be alive. In which case, by supporting abortion, you might be supporting their unjust deaths.
And because we do know that the unborn are alive, then…well, the rest of the argument is fairly obvious.
Hi Christine J, welcome, and glad to be able to have a conversation with you.
I was a bio major in college and in my college bio textbook it clearly stated that human life begins at conception. Scientists are in no way unclear when human life begins.
I am currently 36 weeks pregnant with my second son. I have had several ultrasounds with him. I have watched him grow and mature. The first was at 8 weeks (when most abortions are performed). He had arms, legs, fingers, toes, a heartbeat and was busy twirling round and round in my womb. He was most definitely human and most definitely alive.
The last ultrasound I had of him was when I was 20 weeks. I could see his face, his eyes, his mouth, his fingers and toes. I could see his spine. He was clearly human and clearly alive.
At birth a child emerges from his mother. But that child existed for 9 months prior! That child isn’t suddenly formed in the vagina during birth. To argue that life “begins” at birth is silly and unbelievable in this day and age with the technology we now have to see the baby in the womb.
@ denise…i dont think youre the enemy. to be honest i believe you did the absolute right thing in having a tubl because you didnt want kids. i dont mean to get personal but was there any reason you didnt want kids? i dont see a thing wrong with a woman who does not wish to be a mom. i just dont want to see women picking and choosing to keep a few or kill a few! no killing! and denise what person are you reading about who aborted in her teens? is this a famous case? you know we both love our reading!;)
oh sydney what is your due date? its a comin. hope you are feeling well and best wishes for a safe delivery;)
Thank you Heather! I am due the 25th (of March) but I’m thinking I may go around March 15th because I was 2 weeks early with my first son. My friends laugh and tell me that is wishful thinking. I was snuggling my friend’s newborn daughter at church today and I just got so excited to see, hold and kiss my own little newborn. :-)
Pisces? :(
Lol. yes Xalisae. My best friend growing up was a Pisces. My husband and I are both Gemini’s and two Gemini’s are not supposed to be together. But we’ve been together 12 years so…
Although they say us Geminis are a little crazy with the mood swings and I would say that is a fair assessment!
oh wow sydney! march 15th is my wedding anniversary! i have a may 21st baby a may 15th baby an april 19th baby and an april 20th baby. i started to get excited in my 36th week or so. i just couldnt wait to actually see him!
im a Libra and they say that we pair up best with Geminis….funny but most of my friends are indeed Geminis. My husband is a Sag.
I would not settle for any doctor, Ob/Gyn or family practitioner, that is not 100% pro-life, meaning he/she also will not prescribe IUDs or hormonal contraceptives (e.g., “The Pill”). Such a doctor is smart enough to know that these kill unborn children silently and the hormones are dangerous enough (besides killing babies) to cause stroke, heart attack and breast cancer in women. I’d hope such wisdom carries out into other areas of medicine as well. I want a doctor who looks out for the well-being of my family instead of the well-being of his/her wallet.
One More Soul is a good online resource for finding such doctors. Unfortunately, there are too few doctors listed. When I asked my doctor whether it was because doctors didn’t know about One More Soul to get registered or if it was that there were so few of these doctors in existence, he sad he believed that it was, sadly, that there were so few like him that believed fully in respect for life.
My ex is a Gemini, so trust me, I know alls about it.
Not a bad fella, on a good day. Only problem is, he had some really bad days.
One of my sisters is a Pisces, and she and I have gotten on each others’ nerves for as long as I can remember. >_<
I am an aquarius, as is my betrothed. MUCH more harmony in the household. We have the same values, and I don’t have to spend all my time praying he’ll be descent. ^_^
Heather:
I have another ex that is a Libra. Together, my exes were kinda like, best frenimies. It was weird.
Yeah, um, my Gemini-ness sometimes comes across on here a lot, I know! I’m up, i’m down. No, i’m not bi-polar but I’m definitely emotional. My husband and I seem to work because when he is down, I’m up and when I’m down he is up. We seem to balance each other. I’m glad you’ve found someone you can be completely compatible with, Xalisae. :-)
Happy anniversary a little early Heather! If I’m in labor on that day I’ll be thinking of you!
lol there is something to the signs! xalasie oh my. ive met a lot of Libras who were so much like me i couldnt stand them! lol! i get along with your sign as well.
Heather, that’s because we’re all air signs. Aquarius, Gemini, and Libra are all air signs. We share a common element. :)
heather says:
February 26, 2012 at 9:21 pm
@ denise…i dont think youre the enemy. to be honest i believe you did the absolute right thing in having a tubl because you didnt want kids. i dont mean to get personal but was there any reason you didnt want kids?
(Denise) I have a disability that would have made it impossible to care properly for babies and older children.
I am just not that good with, or interested in, children.
<<i dont see a thing wrong with a woman who does not wish to be a mom. i just dont want to see women picking and choosing to keep a few or kill a few! no killing! and denise what person are you reading about who aborted in her teens? is this a famous case? you know we both love our reading!;)
(Denise) I’m researching the case of Fumiko Kimura. In 1985, she attempted suicide and, at the same time, drowned her two young children.
Her background was scarred by divorce and abortion.
hi denise…id like to google that case as i hadnt heard about it. also on another note did you know that lorainne bobbitt cut off her husbands penis and admitted ” i got pregnant and he demanded i have an abortion. i had it done and i hated him after that.”
that came out when lorainna was on the stand. i am starting to realize that abortion can cause women to snap. as was the case of a lady cop id read about. she shot and killed herself after she became depressed over her abortion. these stories are so sad.
heather, Lorena Bobbit chopped off her husband’s genitals around the anniversary of her abortion.
really sydney? oh well talk about sending a message! i remember a lot of people thought that case was so odd it was funny. it was a one of a kind indeed but i remember watching LB take the stand and when she mentioned the abortion i felt very bad for her. btw thanks for the correct spelling of her name. its been a while. i believe id read that she did eventually go on to have kids. Another famous case? Amy Fisher and Joey Buttafucco (sp?) Amy had an abortion prior to her affair with JB. i believe her self esteem was so low that she also became obsessed with him and snapped. im not condoning what these women did but i do believe their abortions lowered their self esteem. Fisher also struggles with substance abuse problems.
and monica lewinski had an abortion before she got involved with bill clinton. also bill clintons long time mistress Gennifer Flowers aborted their baby at his insistance. i believe both women remain childless today ( except they remain mothers of dead children)
Science can not and does not tell us when a fetus becomes a human being. There are just so many ways of defining that– is it at conception? when the brain starts functioning? when the heart starts beating? when the fetus becomes viable outside the womb? There’s no consensus across religions, either– different religions and even sects among the same religion have different beliefs on when a fetus is ensouled and thus becomes a full human being. So, no, we don’t know. Maybe you know, but in our society right now, we have no clue. All we can do is guess in the dark. And you know, I’d rather err on the side of the actual human beings involved (the women carrying the pregnancies) rather than on the side of the potential human being.
Human being–member of the human species. Starts at conception. Very simple. No other point it can start. Just science, no religion involved–religion is what tells us how to treat people (don’t kill them–even if they are very young, very old, a different color, or a different sexual orientation). That’s what my religion says about human beings, anyway–some are different.
I really wish I had a prolife OBGYN. For a while I went to one more than an hour away. She refused to believe I was having miscarriages. Then I got a positive pregnancy test. She still didn’t believe I’d been pregnant, then said “Maybe you had a chemical pregnancy.” I never went there again. I want a prolife doctor EXACTLY for the reason of respecting the lives of my children starting at conception. If she wasn’t doing that why bother?
I’ve had a different OBGYN for each of my pregnancies so far. The first one I had this pregnancy refused to see me or check for progesterone levels until they had my medical records–then lost my medical records. I was really scared as my levels are kind of borderline and I was supplemented with my first son, but luckily (no thanks to them) it all turned out okay. I kind of do “don’t ask, don’t tell” and leave if they offend me. With my son when I was around 36 weeks I refused the flu vaccine because it was made using fetal tissue. She didn’t believe me because the current administration, according to her, “wouldn’t even let us do stem cell research.” So clearly at some point to her my son was just a potential experiment subject, and I’m supposed to trust her with his life? Switched practices after that….
I just don’t think there are pro-llfe obgyns in my area, or if there are they aren’t open about it. And I have short labors so I can’t shop very far–I delivered in less than 90 minutes from labor starting last time. So I don’t feel like I have a choice, and I don’t feel it’s very pro-choice to push all the pro-life doctors out of the profession; what about my choice to have a pro-life doctor?
Oh, and I’d love to get Catholic health insurance that doesn’t cover abortion or birth control. Or sex change operations, or sterilizations, or IVF, etc.
Science can not and does not tell us when a fetus becomes a human being.
I would like to draw your attention here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_development_%28biology%29
A new unique human life absolutely, without question, begins at conception, when the gametes fuse. We DO have a clue. If the DNA is human, then the living zygote within its mother is a human entity. All other things – brain function, heartbeat, etc – these are parts of the process of human development, which begins at conception and lasts through adulthood. Viability is based more on what medical technology is available than anything else, and the age of viability continues to get younger and younger. http://liveaction.org/blog/argument-against-abortion-from-metaphysics/
Ensoulment is a philosophical debate, not a scientific one, and one that honestly doesn’t matter when you’re talking about whether an entity is or is not, scientifically, human.
Though abortion artifically pits a mother against her own offspring, and there should really be no “side” to need to err on, IMO… there are two beings – one weaker, who stands to lose his or her entire existence, and one stronger, who likely stands to lose a lot less than that.
When I see a human being on an ultrasound, I don’t have to “guess in the dark.”
human being
?
noun
1.
any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.
That is pretty well-established, Christine. It’s not hard to read a dictionary, is it? Since you claim to work in the medical field, I’d hope you have some sort of a background in basic science, at least, and you’d therefore know that gestating humans are living members of our species. Duh.
If you want to discuss “potential human beings”, we’d be talking about sperm and ova, and you’ll find that nobody here is petitioning to make it illegal to destroy those haploid gametes that are most definitely NOT their own new human organism in the way that gestating human embryos/fetuses are.
For Heather: I’m currently working on TWO crime stories in which problem pregnancies serve as a backdrop. When Fumiko Kimura learned that her husband had a mistress, she also learned the mistress had been impregnated by him and had an abortion. It’s likely this may have caused a kind of flashback to her own abortion.
The other story is about Marlene Olive, who coaxed her boyfriend to kill her parents. Marlene was an adoptee. Her biological mother had been a teenager seduced by a sailor.
OMG, it’s 2012 and people are still unclear on when new human life begins?!
When did you and I begin to exist? At birth? No, my mother was expecting me months before that. At my first heartbeat? No, because in order for my heart to develop, I must first be alive and, well, developing!
Christine, respiration is a scientifically accepted indication of life. Even before the lungs are developed, respiration is occuring on a cellular level in the embryo. Look it up. And since the embryo’s cells all contain the new person’s DNA, the embryo is NOT part of the mother’s body. My brother’s foot was NOT part of my mother’s body.
I prefer pro-life health care practioners of all kinds, even my dentist is pro-life. Why? Because anyone who can kill a defenseless child for a living isn’t going to put their blood-stained hands on ME.
Whoa, whoa, I make no claim at working in the medical field! I’m a grad student in the humanities, nothing else! Maybe it’s because I’m not a scientist that I’m not convinced by the evidence that seems so clear to you all, but really, I’m not convinced. I don’t think it’s as simple as when cellular replication occurs, because so very many pregnancies are naturally terminated before the mom even knows that she’s pregnant.
But really, the fact of the matter for me is that it is 2012, and that we’re still having this discussion. In this one country, we can’t even come to a consensus on something that you claim is so simple. If it really were as simple as all that; if we knew exactly the point at which a human becomes a human, then we wouldn’t have to have this debate. But there are so many opinions–religious, moral and scientific–to keep in mind!
if we knew exactly the point at which a human becomes a human, then we wouldn’t have to have this debate.
What a load of bull. When is an individual organism with unique human DNA not a human Christine?
Hi Christine J.,
You’re opinion that since it is 2012, and we still can’t reach a “consensus” of when life begins therefore it must be unclear, is a cop-out. Just because something is controversial, doesn’t mean that a right answer does not exist, and is not known. Do you think, when the Western world could not agree on the humanity of slaves, that slaves were therefore not human (since, after all, if a whole society could have this debate, then it can’t be as simple as “slaves are human!”).
And do you honestly think that because many pregnancies are naturally terminated, that a human did not die? EVERYONE is naturally terminated at some point in their lives, are we all therefore not human? What about those that are disabled? Not too long ago many disabled people would have died without the technology we have today, are they then not human because they have no chance of surviving naturally?
Please think through the implications of what you are saying, because they really do lead to many awful things! (eugenics, leaving people to die, euthanasia, abortion – just death being deliberately cause by other people! How is that EVER ok, except in self defense?) There’s a reason this debate is still alive in 2012, and that is because it is easier to believe that children are not human until they pass through the birth canal, because then they can be terminated at will, and mothers and fathers can go on living their lives as if nothing had happened. That is the ONLY reason. After all, who wants to admit to themselves that we are responsible for the dehumanization, torture, experimentation, and termination, of literally COUNTLESS lives? It is MUCH easier to live in ignorance. And it is MUCH more convenient for unwilling mothers and fathers, abortionists, and scientists who experiment on embryos, who are ultimately the ones who are directly involved in the killing.
I don’t think it’s as simple as when cellular replication occurs, because so very many pregnancies are naturally terminated before the mom even knows that she’s pregnant.
See, the trouble with this is that lots of people die all the time that nobody else knows about. Comparing a natural miscarriage to a deliberate abortion is like comparing a person who dies of old age with someone who is shot to death. The situations are only comparable in that in both cases, a human being died. Deliberate human intervention intended to cause a death is not remotely the same thing as a death of natural causes, and it really isn’t fair to use deaths from natural causes to justify death by deliberate human intervention.
“There’s a reason this debate is still alive in 2012, and that is because it is easier to believe that children are not human until they pass through the birth canal, because then they can be terminated at will, and mothers and fathers can go on living their lives as if nothing had happened. That is the ONLY reason.”
DolceBella2, I wish I could like your comment a few dozen times.
Christine J. says:
February 27, 2012 at 3:21 pm
Science can not and does not tell us when a fetus becomes a human being.
Oh really? So none of the following compiled scientific texts written by biologists and embryologists mean anything?
http://mylifeinreflection.blogspot.com/2009/01/when-does-new-human-life-begin.html
Christine,
I think you are making a common mistake, confusing personhood (a legal term and philosphical argument in which rights and values are assigned, based on age, location, etc.) with being that of the genius homo sapien or human, which is a scientific term, wherein science and genetics tell us the offspring will be the same species as the mother & father, in this case human. I think Dr. Nadal, a cellular and molecular biologist can explain it better.
Local paper I worked at when I lived in a previous state had a columnist whose husband was an OB/GYN. They both belonged to Zero Population Growth. How sick is that? Sounds like that kind of person would ‘let’ the mom die also.
You might ask where your Dr. is in regard to ‘Living Wills’. I think of them as “I want to die when …”.
I may very well be confounding personhood with science. Like I said, I never claimed to be a scientist– I would be a terrible scientist. But I’ve read pretty much everything I could get my hands on about what science says, what religions say, what ethics say on life and personhood and conception, and honestly, I see no consensus. I’m talking everything from academic books and papers to wikipedia articles and Yahoo! answers. Virtually no two people in the world have exactly the same belief about this. Of course, there are some broad patterns, but when you get into the really nitty-gritty details, it all falls apart.
So, really, it is just guessing in the dark. I just happen to throw in my lot with the folks who actually have to endure pregnancy. You obviously don’t. That’s your prerogative. But why, oh why, can you not be content with just not having an abortion if you think they’re murder? Why don’t other people get to do exactly what you and I did, and research and think and pray and go see their clergy and come to their own decision? (For that matter, why are we so hung up on preventing abortion that we don’t address its root causes? Folks don’t generally have them because they think it’s a fun time. Why not have better sex-ed and better welfare and make birth control cheaper and more available?)
But why, oh why, can you not be content with just not having an abortion if you think they’re murder?
Yes, if you think murder is wrong, just don’t murder anyone! Why try to stop other people from murdering? You interfering busybodies. If your abusive neighbor wants to kill his wife, what business is it of yours?
There’s a consensus that people are full people who deserve full rights once they are born. Your abusive neighbor’s wife is obviously a full human being. A fetus may or may not be one, so shouldn’t you have a more nuanced understanding of appropriate or inappropriate behavior?
But what if my abusive neighbor’s wife was having an affair? There’s no “consensus” there. Some people think if a woman has an affair she deserves to be killed. And “consensus” is definitely what is needed to determine right from wrong, after all.
Even if this hypothetical woman was having an affair, if you polled 1000 people, I think you’d be hard-pressed to find anyone who said that she was anything less than a full human being who deserved all of her rights. The same is really not true with a fetus. And yes, consensus is important, because in a democracy, consensus is primarily how we get laws made.
You know, the more I think about it the more I realize that Christine is on to something here and SLAVERY SHOULD STILL BE LEGAL! It was abolished before there was “consensus” and if we would have polled 1000 people including slave owners we would have seen that there were plenty that believed that slaves were “less than full human beings”. Christine will be leading the charge to right this outlandish wrong, I’m sure.
@Patty;
Lol, did this OB/GYN just practice the Gyn part of medicine? Being an “OB” and a member of “Zero Population Growth” seems to be an oxymoron.
Oh, now wait a minute. 51% of Americans believe that abortion is morally wrong. I guess we have our consensus! Fight on, pro-lifers!
http://www.gallup.com/poll/147734/Americans-Split-Along-Pro-Choice-Pro-Life-Lines.aspx
Heather, I have to say I don’t believe 90% of your stories. They all sound like crazy “friend of a friend of a friend” stories. You can’t base your knowledge on secondhand anecdotes and gossip magazines.
That’s simply not accurate. By the time slavery was abolished all over the New World, folks were pretty much united in believing that black people were full human beings. That belief actually predated slavery in the Atlantic world– slave traders were, again, fully conscious of the humanity of the very people they enslaved. In general, there was a certain sense that black people were inferior (which continues to a disgusting degree today!) but they were still human beings.
Regarding the 51% figure, you’ll notice that 49% of people think that abortion should be legal, regardless of their personal feelings about its morality. We still don’t have a consensus here.
Regarding the 51% figure, you’ll notice that 49% of people think that abortion should be legal, regardless of their personal feelings about its morality. We still don’t have a consensus here.
Oh gosh golly, Christine is right again. I guess polls aren’t all that useful when it comes to determining right from wrong and law-making. Who would have thunk it.
Like xalisae pointed out ages ago, I guess we could always refer to the dictionary if we’re having trouble figuring out what a word means.
human being
?
noun
1. any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens.
Yep, seems that the embryo/fetus is a human being. Glad we got that all figured out.