Stanek wkend question: Should aborting mothers be charged with murder?
A bill was introduced in the Iowa House this week that would define abortion as murder. According to the Ames Tribune, February 7:
Those charged with murder, under the bill, would include a mother who takes abortion-inducing drugs or a doctor who performs an abortion. It also grants no exceptions for rape, incest or to protect the life of the mother.
When the day comes that abortion is again illegal in the United States, should mothers who seek or attempt clandestine abortions be charged with murder along with their abortionists?
It should be noted that before abortion was legalized throughout the U.S. in 1973, aborting mothers were not prosecuted. According to Clarke Forsythe at Americans United for Life:
States did not treat women who had the abortion as either principals or accomplices….
As one legal scholar in the 1980s who studied this issue concluded after surveying the 50 states, women “were never charged with murder, only seldom were named co-conspirators, and still more rarely were regarded as accomplices.”…
As the appeals court in the District of Columbia wrote in 1901, “… D.C. Code… applies to the person or persons committing the act which produces the miscarriage, and not to the person upon whom it is committed, notwithstanding it may be done with her knowledge and consent. Not being liable to indictment thereunder, she is not an accomplice in the legal sense.”
Based on the fact that abortion was dangerous and often fatal up to the 19th century, women were seen as victims.
In addition, another main reason for the non-prosecution of women is that relieving women from criminal liability provided states with a better chance of achieving convictions against abortionists – the principal.
[Photo via Daily Kos]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
A drunk driver kills a pregnant woman and her fetus, he’s charged with 2 counts of homicide. Had that same woman aborted her fetus the day before she would have just been exercising her free choice. Doesn’t make sense.
Is killing called murder? Should murderers be prosecuted? We are compassionate towards mothers who kill but why is it we are not compassionate to those in gangs who for the same reasons kill others.
Economics(money)
Peer pressure
Career(anyone who stands in the way of “gang careers” are killed.)
Dewayne is correct in stating the double standards that when a pregnant woman is killed the law says two people were killed. But if a woman “chooses” to kill her baby that’s ok.
If a person hires another person to kill someone they are prosecuted along with the hired hand.
We love those who have repented and feel remorseful after killing their baby but what about those murderers who are remorseful for killing a wife or child living outside the womb?
Casey Anthony in point was not afforded the compassion of other mothers who killed their child. Even with a “not guilty” verdict she is still hated and many want her dead.
What about someone who is negligent in leaving a gun available to a child who then accidentally shoots himself? Those parents have suffered greatly and it would seem their punishment is enough but they are prosecuted for manslaughter or negligence. Why?
There are many cases that seem harsh to prosecute but killing is permanent with consequences that truly affect the whole of society.
Can we be hypocritical and why is it so difficult to call killing- murder – in cases of the unborn? The bible tells us that if we are angry with our brother and wish him dead we too are murderers. Murder is an offense against another human and God. Forgiveness is always available through Christ but there are consequences too.
Whoever does the killing deed should be charged, just as in any other case. Others should be charged with forms of accessory. Most often it would be the doctor charged then. The Iowa bill, not having read it and possibly being misconstrued by the media as usual, would not be good because in the case of the mother’s life, the law cannot place the right to life of the mother and the right to life of the child on unequal footing. Both have an equal right. Unfortunately I realize this country doesn’t take legal standards or true rights very seriously, and that bill will just be another talking point for abortion supporters. I wish this country were concerned with true compassion and respect for others, and not just faux displays of them.
Is a baby being killed or not? does the woman know that she is killing her child? it is so simple! yes! murder is murder. period.
what would happen if you killed your month old child. would circumstances make the difference in the outcome? I didn’t have enough money to care of an infant. I wasn’t ready to be a mother. I wanted to finish school. It wasn’t the right time. my parent’s would kill me.
It is still murder. period. stop making excuses. Let’s end abortion now. What happened in the past isn’t going to change the outcome of the dead baby. God is a merciful God if you have sorrow in your heart you know that God Loves you and forgives you. We have to stop the insanity of killing our innocent babies. Generations are being wiped out. From here on out lets us all be on the same page in saying that yes, killing an innocent baby is murder! no ifs ands or buts about it.
Yes. There are certain circumstances (as in any murder case) that would make a women less culpable, but unless she’s strapped down to a table and forcibly aborted (or someone slips something in her drink, etc), or she does it in such a way that makes it obvious it was a self-injurious/suicidal action, then yes. She should be charged just like any other killer would be.
@ Jill Stanek: This is going to necessitate building many more women’s prisons. The country as a whole will have a problem because such a large segment of its female population with be imprisoned. Has a society ever had about 25% the female population incarcerated?
I guess there’s a good side to this. Those of us who can’t or don’t abort will get our pick of men!
FYI
I’ve found that when ministering to women in prison when I asked how many have had abortions I found 99%. So maybe they are acting out or self medicating for what they have done and then are caught with drugs or assault. There are an increasing number of women in jails since abortion was made legal.
No. No, no and no.
No.
When abortion becomes illegal again the law itself will prove to be a deterrent for women. It will discourage pursuing of abortion and maybe…..just maybe people will be sexually responsible. If it had been illegal in 1990 I never would have even pursued it!! And that goes for so many other post abortive mothers I know.
There is no informed consent with abortion.
Show the mommy her baby on ultrasound. Let her hear her child’s heartbeat. Offer her love, support, hope, help and compassion to carry her child.
Tell them and show them EVERYTHING that abortion entails and ALL possible side effects(possible death of the mother, immediate death to the child, infertility, hemorrage, depression, suicidal thoughts and attempts, pain, grief, anxiety, LIFELONG regret……)
If women KNEW THE TRUTH they wouldn’t choose abortion.
If this bill passes, more rape victims might end up in prison than rapists!
From here on out lets us all be on the same page in saying that yes, killing an innocent baby is murder! no ifs ands or buts about it.
Nobody is saying it isn’t.
“If this bill passes, more rape victims might end up in prison than rapists!”
Unlikely, a very small percentage of abortions are due to rape, and besides not all rapes result in pregnancy so there’s a much larger pool of rapists to potentially end up in jail.
From a legal perspective I think this goes back to criminal intent. Given the wildly inaccurate information given to the populous at large for a couple of generations now about fetal development, given the hard-sell marketing tactics and lies of abortion providers and the pro-abortion liberal media, and the often extreme mental, emotional, and sometimes physical pressure put on pregnant women, I do not think, baring a confession from the woman or a ‘habitual’ record of offense, you could prove beyond a reasonable doubt the mother had sufficient criminal intent to be guilty of murder. But the abortion doctor absolutely does, every single time. Therefore I would think, from a purely legal viewpoint, it would be unobtainable to charge and convict the mothers, excepting under extreme circumstances, of murder. I could see, regardless of historical presedent, where a future situation could exist where this could change, but within a generation of abortion becoming illegal wouldn’t be it.
Morally, however, is a much different situation, but what one knows in one’s heart and what can be proved in the American justice system is too very different things.
Abortion is murder. Our laws must respect this fact.
And our justice system should continue to treat women as victims of abortion.
Just as surely as the child is killed, legalized abortion promotes the exploitation of women — by boyfriends, parents, employers, sexual abusers, pimps, and (most of all) the abortion industry.
So our laws must protect women AND children.
The abortion industry will insist that pro-lifers want to prosecute all women. They will paint themselves as the protectors of women’s rights (when they are only interested in protecting themselves). So the difficult work of actually protecting women and their children falls upon us: We need to propose wise legislation that discerns who is guilty of premeditated murder — and the culpability (if any) of those who are under distress and duress.
Very rarely does a woman behave like a monster, genuinely hating her unborn child and delighting in killing her. There is almost always a mitigating circumstance that begs for mercy. Jail terms are not necessary — the threat that the abortion secret will be opened in a minor court action should be sufficient. Abortion thrives in the oxygen of fear and secrecy — if we simply remove the shelter of “patient confidentiality,” that will be a mortal blow to the abortion industry.
There is already model legislation available in the world of drug abuse: The stiff penalties go toward the pushers and dealers who profit from the drug trade. The addicts get treatment and probation.
Put the abortionists in jail and the murders will greatly reduce.
This.
…and thus logically, one day Texas could execute a woman for having an abortion.
And the sanctity of life circle is complete! (sarcasm)
Ex-GOP, with comments like that do you seriously wonder why people question your pro-life credentials? I mean, that could have come right from the mouth of any of our trolls.
I’m just saying, I’ve always found it weird to find so many on this board that support the death penalty – but logically, that’s where this path would end up in many states.
If women KNEW THE TRUTH they wouldn’t choose abortion.
I’m sorry, Carla, but that is simply not true. Been on Twitter much? Talked to many women “celebrating” their “right to choice and reproductive freedom?”. Honestly, after reading some of the things Megan, CC, and joan, and even of late Ginger have posted here, I’m truly surprised you can maintain that notion without exception. There are women who know DARNED WELL AND GOOD what abortion is, what it does, everything it entails. There are PLENTY of women I’ve spoken to myself who just do. not. CARE. They don’t care. They wanna do what they wanna do and they don’t give two squats about the other living human being who they know perfectly well is their living child. Not every woman is a victim of abortion. Some women are knowing and willing perpetrators. We have to acknowledge and accept this cold, hard fact.
Yeah, I disagree also Carla. They say when women see ultrasounds something like 78% choose life. So I believe MOST women if they knew the truth wouldn’t choose abortion. But not all. What about those who see their babies like Theo Purington’s ex-fiance who saw their baby on ultrasound and while he was crying tears of joy over the heartbeat and fingers and toes she was planning on abortion (and had one). What is her excuse? The father of her baby loved her and loved her baby. She SAW her living formed baby on ultrasound and yet she chose to kill that baby. So is she a victim then? Should she not face any charges for what she did?
I disagree with pro-lifers being cruel to post-abortive women but I do agree with our justice system punishing women who kill their children, whether they’re in the womb or 3 years old.
We don’t want women who kill their kids outside the womb to go unpunished (judicially) yet we want women who abort to get a free pass. I don’t get it. Yes women who kill their kids suffer (if they still have a conscience) but does that mean they deserve no jail time? No punishment? We say abortion is murder. We say human fetuses are babies but then we don’t back it up. I just don’t get why abortion merits more compassion than other evil acts.
If I’m wrong please explain it to me. Please don’t anyone attack me or say I’m not being compassionate because I want to be but I also just don’t understand it.
This discussion is not helping. It’s too hypothetical and saying yes just makes you sound nasty. You all are playing to the pro-life stereotype. We need to care for these women, not threaten them. Show them God’s love, not the wrath of zealots.
Well-put, Sydney. Couldn’t agree more.
So women know the spiritual bondage that abortion brings? They know the evil that follows them? The spiritual darkness? That abortion is satan’s business? They understand their hardened hearts?
Planned Parenthood tells them all about that too I am sure.
Is that a discussion you would like to have with me Xalisae?
I am not just talking about fetal development.
I will stick to my own notions. I have met women that are 70+ years old and FINALLY speaking of their abortion regret. Up until then? They are the Megans, the Joans, the Gingers.
And the denial and anger on Twitter? Just points to their pain.
Gotta go.
Every state has a murder for hire statute. The person that hires the hit man is always guilty of murder. In fact, we often allow the hit man to plea bargain if he will give up the one who hires him.
The only reason we see the woman differently than the normal person who hires a hit man is… she’s a woman. We get squeamish about punishing women severely for their crimes. Abortion is the only crime where many tend to see the person hired to do the crime as somehow more guilty that the person who hired them.
God gave the woman the privilege and the responsibility of carrying a child. In doing so, God also gave the woman the responsibility of being the last line of defense from those who would harm her child. When the woman, not only abdicates that responsibility to protect her child, but also hires someone to actually murder her child, it is even worse, because God did not give the abortionist the primary role of protecting her child.
Abortionists do not go door to door trying to talk women into abortions. Abortionists do not call women on the phone to solicit them to have abortions. Women seek out abortionists and go to the abortionists place of business.
The only way the woman is not responsible for the abortion is if she truly was physically forced to have an abortion. Either she was over powered by a physical force that she could not physically resist or she was drugged and taken for the abortion.
No amount out emotional pressure or coercion from another justifies making the decision to kill your own child. We should never take the feelings of the criminal into account. We are to judge the actions. We should not consider your motive for robbing the bank or murdering your neighbor. God only gave governments the responsibility to punish criminals based on their actions.
It is silly to say that a law against abortions alone would deter women from having abortions. A law without attached penalties has no deterrent value at all. If there is a speed limit sign and you know there will be no bad consequences for speeding, the sign will not deter those who want to speed. God promised us in the Bible that if the penalties fro crime are swift and sure, we will not have a crime epidemic.
The attempted comparison to the drug pusher and the addict is also without merit, because in the case of abortion there is an innocent third party who was murdered. The addict did not harm another human being. If the addict does harm a human being we punish him for that. In all murders, all parties that conspire and work together to murder are equally guilty of murder.
Guilt cannot be diluted. All guilty parties are 100% guilty. If one man murders another, he is 100% guilty of murder. If 25 men in a lynch mob murder a man, all 25 are 100% guilty of murder.
The article on how abortion was punished in earlier days is also not relevant, because we do not judge right or wrong or crime and punishment based on man’s principles. We should only look to God’s principles rather than what seems right in our own eyes.
When God first commanded that murderers be punished, He gave a reason. He said the murderer must be punished because the victim was created in the image of God. That is a constant that never changes. All parties in the murder should be punished… including the woman who chose the murder her child and those who put pressure on her to murder her child.
Good Lord.
You think the last 22 years of my life after abortion have been a “free pass?”
I am done with this thread.
The friend of mine who said she “just wasn’t going to complete the pregnancy” would not have been dissuaded by a sonogram — or by anything else. She doesn’t believe the fetus is a human life because “development and sentience” aren’t great enough until about 3rd trimester. The pregnancy itself, the moon belly and all that is part of carrying to term, were experienced as intolerable. In her own words, “No way. No way in h—.”
It is reactions like this that lead me to put emphasis on prevention whether by preventing the sex act or through contraception.
God gave the woman the privilege and the responsibility of carrying a child. In doing so, God also gave the woman the responsibility of being the last line of defense from those who would harm her child.
And God game the man the privilege and the responsibility of protecting women and children. In doing so, God also gave the man the responsibility of being the first line of defense from those who would harm her and her child.
As I have said before, I have no problem with a mother being put in jail for aborting her child as long as the father of her child is in the cell right next to her.
I have no doubt that putting dads of aborted children in prison would reduce abortion at a very quick rate.
Oh, Carla. Have I told you lately that I love you?
I do.
I think the rule of law should be followed in terms of prosecution, but it is in the area of PUNISHMENT that I would like to see DIFFERENT treatment. The abortionist should probably be punished more severely while the mother’s situation should be taken into account. For example, a lot of women have been forced into an abortion without being strapped down, so that was a little harsh, people.
Denise illustrates the pro-choice view that the mother’s opinion is more important than the child’s right to life. IMHO, our culture needs to go BACK to valuing physical LIFE more than opinion or feeling.
Ex-GOP wrote, “…and thus logically, one day Texas could execute a woman for having an abortion.”
Wouldn’t she just be an accessory to murder? I would think that capital punishment would be reserved for whoever carried out the abortion, i.e. the abortionist. Laws must be enforceable, so for a chemical abortion any pharmacist providing an abortifacient would be punished–but not with capital punishment. Remember that there is more than one degree of murder in the US, and capital punishment is reserved for the worst form.
Ex-GOP wrote, “And the sanctity of life circle is complete! (sarcasm) “
Are you mocking God? See Genesis 9:6. But you’re wrong. Justice is complete. Justice requires an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth; the punishment must fith the crime. Justice is the reason that my Saviour died and endured the eternal punishment of hell. As you know, the wages of sin is death.
ninek says:
February 9, 2013 at 12:25 pm
Denise illustrates the pro-choice view that the mother’s opinion is more important than the child’s right to life. IMHO, our culture needs to go BACK to valuing physical LIFE more than opinion or feeling.
(Denise) Feelings are MOTIVATORS. Wanting a baby is a powerful motivator to carry to term and give birth.
The woman told me she just was not going to “complete the pregnancy.” She has to complete the pregnancy for the baby to be born.
Carla, I asked you to help me understand. Not get angry about it. Can you have this conversation or can’t you? You know I love you as a friend. We don’t agree on this but it doesn’t mean I hate you or that I want to see you upset. I am trying to understand but I am not going to shake my head in agreement just to avoid upsetting you. So if your comment was directed at me, I am sorry you are so upset but isn’t this a discussion worth having? If we’re in the wrong show us how we’re in the wrong.
I don’t think emotionally you’ve gotten a “free pass”. Not at all. I know you have suffered. I have SEEN with my own eyes the intense suffering of my friends who aborted. What I am saying is if abortion is made illegal…should our JUSTICE SYSTEM not go after women who KILL THIER CHILDREN whether in the womb or out of the womb?
If you argue that women who kill their children out of the womb should go to jail but women who kill their children in the womb shouldn’t then you are arguing that children in the womb are not worth the same as children out of the womb. This seems so cut and dry to me. Either fetuses are people or they aren’t! And if they are people then those who kill them should be prosecuted for murder! Notice I didn’t say PERSECUTED. I think pro-lifers should always be loving to women who abort but our judicial system has a duty to punish those who take innocent life. Agree or don’t agree?
THAT is what I meant by “free pass”.
It already happens… abortion is murder. As prolifers we are taught that they shouldn’t be punished…some confusion for me.
http://www.boiseweekly.com/CityDesk/archives/2012/04/10/eastern-idaho-woman-arrested-for-self-abortion-ready-to-take-case-to-higher-court
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/12/01/nypd-manhattan-woman-performed-self-abortion/
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/09/17/sarah-catt-woman-aborted-baby-due-date-jailed-eight-years_n_1889691.html
So women know the spiritual bondage that abortion brings?
I don’t know anything about that. When I was struggling through my crisis pregnancy with my daughter, I wasn’t weighing “spiritual bondage” as a reason not to kill her. I’ve been an atheist for awhile now.
They know the evil that follows them?
“Evil” is not an external force imo. It’s an inherent aspect of human nature, just as “Goodness” is. I guess that’s part of the reason I’m less inclined to give lenience-I don’t see us as being acted upon by outside forces, but controlling our own actions according to the aspects we choose to express.
The spiritual darkness?
I wouldn’t know anything about this, either. “Spiritual” matters are not legal matters. I’m being practical here.
That abortion is satan’s business?
And delivering Christmas gifts is Santa Claus’s business, but if we’re talking about someone stealing gifts from someone else, that’s a legal matter, and they should know the law will step in to assist the wronged party in obtaining justice.
They understand their hardened hearts?
I hope they take me for my word when I say I didn’t *actually* have a choice in whether or not to carry my daughter to term because killing one’s child is wrong, whether or not it is illegal at any given time (they rarely do, by the way). Trying to get them to understand even the concept of someone acting contrary to their wants/desires seems the impossible task.
Therefore, I’m perfectly willing to take them at their word when they say they know what they did and they don’t care, because “MY BODY, MY BODY, MY BODY, ME ME ME!!!!”
“Do unto others…”, right?
I am not a mind-reader. I don’t want or pretend to be. All I know about their situation is what they tell me, and until they tell me with their own mouths that they didn’t know what they were doing (with a certain degree of proof, like maybe they dropped out of high school, or it could be proven their teachers and parents never informed them of basic human reproduction), I’m inclined to believe them.
Planned Parenthood tells them all about that too I am sure.
And Planned Parenthood could’ve told me my daughter gestating inside me was a turnip, and I’d have called them on their b.s., since I learned about basic human reproduction in 6th grade.
Is that a discussion you would like to have with me Xalisae?
If you wanna bring it, bring it. I love you, Carla, but I go ’round with everyone, eventually, about something. I’m afraid at this point in my life, I will go to my grave speaking my mind. I just hope that speaking my mind like I do will not take me early to it.
I am not just talking about fetal development.
I am, mostly. I’m just looking at the facts of the matter.
And the denial and anger on Twitter? Just points to their pain.
I hope and wish that were so, but I’m afraid the evidence does not support that.
Carla says: So women know the spiritual bondage that abortion brings? They know the evil that follows them? The spiritual darkness? That abortion is satan’s business? They understand their hardened hearts?
^ This. There are different levels of knowing. I agree with the statement “If women knew the truth they wouldn’t choose abortion.” It goes beyond the truth of fetal development and the physical and emotional risks of abortion. It goes to the heart of Truth, which is Jesus.
Did I know what I was doing when I led a promiscuous, dishonest life? Yes. And no. I knew what I was choosing to do physically, and even emotionally. But I was blind to the spiritual consequences. And it turns out that those are the consequences that matter most.
And now I work hard to raise my children to understand the consequences of sin so they don’t repeat my painful mistakes. As Maya Angelou says, when you know better you do better.
When abortion becomes illegal, I’m not in favor of protecting women from the legal consequences of their choice. Currently, homocide cases require a review of the circumstances surrounding the crime and there are often mitigating factors. It should be the same with abortion. All of the circumstances should be considered in determining what sort of charges are brought. I don’t think this does a disservice to the women that don’t truly know what they’ve done. It could very well be what results in their conversion.
Ex-RINO says: June 10, 2012 at 11:08 pm “For the record, I have three kids, my wife and I would never ever have considered an abortion, and I’m against it as I equate it to murder.”
Ex-RINO says: June 11, 2012 at 7:56 am“…at the end of the day, I’m more likely than not to vote democrRAT…”Ex-RINO says: February 9, 2013 at 11:08 am “…and thus logically, one day Texas could execute a woman for having an abortion.” [murdering her pre-natal child]
Ex-RINO says: February 9, 2013 at 11:20 am …”I’ve always found it weird to find so many on this board that support the death penalty – but logically, that’s where this path would end up in many states.”
Ex,
When it comes to ‘logic’, you have demonstrated consistently that it is a concept that is as foreign to you as rocket science is to a tadpole.
“Kristi-An Walker, a 20-year-old Texas mother who is now pregnant with her fourth child has confessed to killing two of her infant children, according to police, who said that she told them she thought she “had too many kids.””
“Walker confessed to killing her 4-month-old son in April 2011 and her 6-month-old son son in June 2012, Angleton, Texas, police said.”
http://abcnews.go.com/US/pregnant-texas-mom-kristi-walker-confesses-killing-infant/story?id=17443963
Was Walker’s 4 month old victim any less human than her 6 month old victim?
Consistency, logic and justice would demand that the age of the victim have nothing to do with the determining the guilt of the perpetrator and then having found the perpetrator quilty should have nothing to do with determining the penalty.
How is pregant woman who conspires with an assassin to murder her pre-natal child any less guilty than ms Walker?
I agree that the men should be the first line of defense for the innocent child and that all men pushing the women to get an abortion are guilty of murder, but the women is still the last line of defense for her child. No matter how persuasive the man is, unless there is physical force that she is unable to overcome, she makes the final decision.
As horrible as it sounds there are also women who murder their own children when the father opposes her doing so.
When we decide what the law should be, we should not look at the current law to guide us because the current law is corrupt. We should only look to God’s principles to guide us to what the law should be. God does not make a distinction that separates an accessory from the act of murder. The accessory is a murderer regardless of what our corrupt law says.
Many murderers have great remorse later for what they did. Remorse should never be a factor in the punishment of a crime. God will ultimately forgive those who repent, but he commanded governments to punish without mercy. God realizes that governments have no capacity for judging the heart. Governments are only capable of judging their actions.
When I hear the criminal say they think they’ve suffered enough or that they didn’t get a free pass for their crime when they went unpunished, I hear a self serving opinion. It is not up to the criminal to decide if the punishment is adequate for the crime.
Only when a murderer admits that he or she should be punished as a murderer, does that murderer have credibility.
How is pregant woman who conspires with an assassin to murder her pre-natal child any less guilty than ms Walker?
How are men who impregnate women they know are, or will make, terrible parents any less guilty than Ms. Walker? If man is the first line of defense, and I believe he is, it is he who should show the self-control when it comes to having sex. We’ve been taught that it is the female who can get pregnant so she is therefore more responsible for saying no. Baloney. Men need to stop pursuing and having sex with women that they are not willing to parent with.
I love the tadpole comment, Ken!
Is it weird that Christians are for the death penalty when God commanded the death penalty?
Can we at least discern between the innocent and the guilty? To oppose the death penalty is to love the guilty more than the innocent.
Opposing the shedding a guilty blood always allows for more shedding of innocent blood.
Of course men should be responsible for there sexual behavior, but a fornicator is guilty of fornication, not murder. God teaches that it is good for unmarried fornicators to marry. He did not call for the unmarried fornicators to be punished.
Because a man is irresponsible doesn’t mitigate the woman’s guilt for murdering her unborn child.
There is lots of bad behavior in this world. No amount of bad behavior excuses or justifies crime. Any time we try to do that we take the focus off of the crime.
Susan Smith drove her car into the water to drown her children. She is not more guilty than the woman who pays for the murder of her unborn child. Would Susan have been less guilty if she’d have paid someone else to murder her children? Of course not!
“From a legal perspective I think this goes back to criminal intent… I do not think, baring a confession from the woman or a ‘habitual’ record of offense, you could prove beyond a reasonable doubt the mother had sufficient criminal intent to be guilty of murder… Therefore I would think, from a purely legal viewpoint, it would be unobtainable to charge and convict the mothers, excepting under extreme circumstances, of murder.”
This isn’t how criminal intent works. You’ve made this stupid argument before and I’ve shot it down before. If abortion is illegal and prosecuted as murder, then the prosecution only needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the woman intended to and did procure an abortion, not that she knew it was “murder” on top of it.
Answer: yes – following all degrees for death. 1st, second degree murder, manslaughter etc. Being raped doesn’t change the humanity of the child. This is the only way justice can be served regardless of how “wanted” the child is: a mother who electively kills her own child through an abortionist is equal before the law as a father who stabs his child in-utero regardless of the mother’s desire to keep the child.
The basis for prosecution must be the elective selection/act – that is, the criminal intent.
The problem comes with troubled pregnancies. We don’t have perfect knowledge of perfect development. A child may very well die of natural causes in-utero. Autopsies would reveal foul-play, but are we willing to go there? Accidents do happen. Ingestion of fetal toxic substances can be unknown by a mother. it would be a miscarriage of justice if a woman didn’t want a child, but was willing to carry, only to lose the child naturally, then be prosecuted for overheard remarks. I’m reminded of Terri Schiavo who, according to her husband, she remarked she wouldn’t want to live in a PVS. Making a declaration is one thing, acting upon it quite another! Also, such an admission should not assume that death is more desirable – no one wants to live in a PVS, but might find when they are there, they can.
The best we may be able to do is scale criminal prosecutions based on development. The practicality of enforcement is overwhelming.
As long as man is sinful, women and men will be unfaithful, will have sex and children will result. Cultivating a culture of life, where every life is valued from conception on is far more effective than trying to police others.
What about the death penalty for parents who kill their children? No. I’d let them sit and think about it the rest of their natural lives. Unlike a homicidal murderer who poses a threat if released, or even a threat within the prison system to others (yes, there are many murders that occur behind bars) that capital punishment resolves, I don’t see such a threat from abortive parents.
I love you Xalisae.
I love you Sydney.
I love you Praxedes.
Goodnight Johnboy.
I won’t be able to describe or explain it in a way that is sufficient. It is too personal and I am obviously far too emotional about it.
Jill’s weekend question is most serious and it is one pointed to by the proaborts as why Roe v Wade should not be overturned.
If Roe v. Wade were to overturned and nothing else done it would essentially turn the clock back to 1973 and the laws in place at that time. It seems that women were not prosecuted at that time. But should groups or individuals feel that is an injustice to the unborn then by all means they should take the matter up with their congressmen and women. This discussion then would be something brought up in the legislatures of the various states. Those states deciding on criminal prosecution of the woman would almost certainly rid themselves overnight of abortions being performed within their borders and that is not a bad thing.
This whole discussion makes me very sad. A woman who has an abortion serves a life sentence of shame, unless/until she allows Christ to heal her. Even then she will carry regret to her grave. Most are desperate and deceived into thinking they have no other path. If you voted “yes”, I know you’ve never walked in the shoes of a post-abortive woman. i also believe that you are a huge part of the problem in the pro-life movement. Where’s the grace? Where’s the mercy? Where’s Christ?
If this battle is to be won, it will be because women who intimately know the pain abortion causes step up, speak out, and expose the darkness and the lies. Don’t drive them back into the shadows by calling them murderers.
For those who believe that women who have had an abortion are murderers, someone call and turn me in, because according to most of you, I “murdered” my little girl 32 years ago. Never mind that Christ has forgiven me, I am vocal about it now and minister to other women. I have paid for it every day since 1981. “Let he (or she) who is without sin cast the first stone…” I believe it was Jesus that said that??
Using the word “murderer” does nothing to further the prolife cause. You guys are playing right into the hands of the pro-abortion movement, and the hands of the prince of darkness who is behind it.
“Autopsies would reveal foul-play, but are we willing to go there?”
Fetal autopsy is already a thing. I don’t see why we don’t autopsy children who die in utero already, just like we do for born people.
http://miscarriage.about.com/od/stillbirthcausesrisks/f/fetal-autopsy.htm
Once he gets her pregnant, he is no longer just a fornicator. He is a co parent. If he is 100% in the picture, he is knowledgable of her mothering ability. Or lack thereof.
You know how virtue is its own reward?
Sometimes sin is its own punishment. I am about as law and order as the next gal, but I believe Jen and Carla when they tell me none of their abortion story has been easy or free.
Let’s go after the SOBs who are doing the abortions and funding the clinics. With the money we could have spent prosecuting these moms, let’s buy sonogram machines and diapers.
DarrellB:
Is it weird that Christians are for the death penalty when God commanded the death penalty?
The Roman Catholic church has denounced the death penalty. The Church denounces it because we have the means now to keep the dangerous folk from the general population…thereby keeping the GP safe.
From the Cathechism:
“2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor. If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person. Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm – without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself – the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.” 68
Where will we put all the new women’s prisons that will be built for all the girls and women who will be convicted as murderers for having abortions?
How will it affect our society to have such a large percentage of its female population in prison?
@Chris Arsenault:
Are you the gentleman who wrote on the healing beauty of carrying a baby to term after a rape? (that which I asked permission to repost?) If so, can you repost that again? I thought I had it saved, but don’t and often want to refer to it….it was written so beautifully….
Where’s Christ?
Not with me. That’s why a lot of this rings hollow to me.
Kinda weird, though. I just celebrated my 32nd birthday last month…on the anniversary of Roe V. Wade.
I don’t think abortion should be legally treated as murder.
I certainly don’t think aborting mothers should be charged with murder.
@DeniseNoe:
Point is if it is legal, women would tend NOT to get an abortion. Even Bernard Nathanson admitted that when R v W was implement the numbers of women with back alley abortions was an inflated myth that the media ran with. It suited their needs at the time.
Given that at least, 55 MILLION babies have been killed since RvW–that means that about 27.5 MILLION women/girls have been aborted…they are ALL missing from society today. 40 years..many of them would have been mothers by now, with their own daughters….and maybe some of the daughter will have had daughters…..the numbers are mindblowing!!
“You know how virtue is its own reward?
Sometimes sin is its own punishment. I am about as law and order as the next gal, but I believe Jen and Carla when they tell me none of their abortion story has been easy or free.
Let’s go after the SOBs who are doing the abortions and funding the clinics. With the money we could have spent prosecuting these moms, let’s buy sonogram machines and diapers”
I love this Courtnay. I know you and I argue a lot sometimes but we are in agreement on this one.
Joan, *sigh*, it’s not a ‘stupid arguement’ and it *is* how criminal intent works. And that exact line of thinking has been used and proposed by lawyers. Your lack of understanding of legal intimacies does nothing to lessen my point. You have to prove criminal intent in a murder charge, not *just* that someone died, but that someone *intended* to murder (different from say a manslaughter or homicide charge). Murder can only be proved with *intent* to kill, you can’t be found guilty of murder if you had no *intent* to kill someone, even if you *did* kill someone, you can be found guilty of lesser chargers like manslaughter, but not “murder”. If, for instance, you fire into the bushes while hunting because you hear a noise you have no intent to kill a human being. If your foolishness in shooting before confirming what you’re shooting at nets another hunter instead of a deer you’ll likely be brought up on involuntary manslaughter, criminally neglegent homocide, or something of that ilk. Likewise if someone threatens to kill you, beat you, rape you, or harm a member of your family unless you kill another person that is considered diminished capacity because you’re under degress. A believable threat is all that is needed, not a literally gun-to-the-head. If you have been emotionally/mentally abused and brainwashed into commiting said crime you might have a bit harder a time convincing people but, ultimately it is viewed the same. You might find yourself up for lesser chargers, or a plea arrangement, but what you won’t be tried for is murder. Given all the lies surrounding abortion a woman walking into an abortion clinic is like that hunter firing into the woods. She’s guilty of monumental bad judgement, she’s probably guilty of some greater or lesser charge of manslaughter or homicide. Or she may be like the abuse victim who can not be held fully culpable for her actions. And what I feel she may or may not be is rather irrelevent, because what you can *prove* beyond a reasonable doubt is the basis of the legal system. And when a woman stands up, crying and weeping and says “they said it was a clump of cells, they said it wasn’t human, wasn’t a living being, my boyfriend said he’d kill me if I didn’t” I simply *don’t* see how any prosecutor will get 12 people to agree she planned a murder with criminal intent and criminal responsibility. That she wasn’t chained to the abortion table matters not one whit if she can convince even one person in a *murder* trial that she lacked sufficent knowledge or will to form intent.
“Most are desperate and deceived into thinking they have no other path.”
Death rows and maximum security prisons are full of people who were desperate and felt they had no other path but to shoot and rob a convenience store clerk, bank teller, etc. Why should they be treated as hardened criminals but you should be given a pat on the head and told that you’ve suffered enough, poor thing? After all, you’re both murderers. why do they deserve life without parole but you deserve grace and mercy?
“For those who believe that women who have had an abortion are murderers, someone call and turn me in, because according to most of you, I “murdered” my little girl 32 years ago.”
Yes, that is the logical conclusion to the proposition that abortion is murder. You’re not making a very persuasive argument for why the ‘murder’ you and Carla and the other “post-abortives” here committed should be treated as part of a totally distinct class from all the other types of killings we legally recognize as murder.
“Sometimes sin is its own punishment. I am about as law and order as the next gal, but I believe Jen and Carla when they tell me none of their abortion story has been easy or free.”
Would “sin is its own punishment” be sufficient justice for you if someone killed one of your loved ones, but by golly, they feel awfully bad about and they’ve come to Christ and blah blah blah all the other garbage that gets spewed around here to distinguish abortion from other forms of murder? If not, then why do aborted fetuses–sorry, murdered babies–deserve less justice than you?
I love you too Carla. You know I do (I hope you know). I always want to hear what you think and have to say. You know you changed my heart on many things.
Jen,
I remember you from Twitter, now!
I really am sorry for the experiences you and Carla have been through, but I just don’t have that much faith in mankind as a whole. I’m wonderfully thankful that you both are sharing your stories and that more like you both are coming forward all the time, but I really think that more people are capable of much more knowing and unflinching atrocity than you guys both realize. I think there are many more people who are just absolutely cold and callous killers, straight-up.
After having been through the skids and coming out the other side with a child, I find it hard to see past her and look back at myself around that time. It’s not because I’m strong. It’s not because I think I’m “better than”. It’s because I basically “checked-out” for 9 months, set myself to autopilot, and rolled the dice. I can’t imagine making the move to have the abortion, because to me, that involves so much more activity on our parts as women than just letting your child live, which is what happens by default. It just seems counter-intuitive for me to think of us as victims, because ultimately, we ARE the ones who make the moves.
” As I have said before, I have no problem with a mother being put in jail for aborting her child as long as the father of her child is in the cell right next to her.”
Lol. That either might work or the birth rate would drop terribly as men quit having sex because they wouldn’t want to impregnate someone, even their own wife, who could get an abortion without their knowledge.
Hi Blesski.
“The Roman Catholic church has denounced the death penalty.”
This isn’t quite correct. Your quote from the Catechism is certainly true, but to say that this means that the Church “denounces” the death penalty would not be correct. Indeed, when he was prefect for the CDF, then-Cardinal Ratzinger wrote the following in the context of worthiness to recieve Holy communion to clear up just that confusion:
”
3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.
”
http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfworthycom.htm
So Cardinal Ratzinger makes very clear that Catholics in good faith can disagree, as he states explicitly, with the Holy Father on the APPLICATION of the death penalty, and that this is a completely different matter than someone who disagrees with the Church on, say, abortion. God love you.
Abortionist charged with murder and sentenced to jail. Mother charged with mental illness and sentenced to counseling and treatment similar to what is given to people with suicidal tendencies.
@ joan
I don’t consider myself a vicitm and I am not asking for a “pat on the back”. As a matter of fact, I share my story in hopes that others will not go through what I did and the lives of children AND MOTHERS will be saved.
I suppose you have never done anything wrong in your life? Your comments are cold and callous. If you are a Christian, may God have mercy on your proud, judgmental heart.
“It could very well be what results in their conversion” Yes!
Why do I punish my children? Because I love them and so they learn, learn to live a life of blessings!
The post-abortive woman who finally seeks grace at 70 years old would have been spared many years of suffering if she had to come to terms with it sooner in life.
Deterring women in this way would also spare women that pain. Punishment is not about not being understanding or loving.
@ xaliase
Yep: we celebrated your birthday on Twitter in honor of my little girl. That was so kind of you. I will never forget it! :)
Jack liked something I wrote!!!
Could i get that notarized? lol
The fact is that girls and women seek abortions. They’re the ones who get pregnant. Just as China has a large sex imbalance BECAUSE OF abortion, the US will have a similar imbalance because of imprisoning so many women as murderers. Men might get caught as abortionists or pressuring for the abortion, but the result of this sort of law will be to have something like 25-45% of females behind bars.
What kind of society will we have when all the aborters are crammed into prisons?
Now that we’ve got this question settled (ha), do you think it should be illegal to go to Canada for an abortion if illegal in the U.S.? That’s a law that would be difficult to enforce.
Denise,
1) Not everyone that kills someone gets jail time
2) Abortion will NOT continue at the current rate if it becomes illegal
Okay, so my opinion is that the problem of abortion won’t be reduced much with any type of focus on punishing the mothers.
I would rather see laws targeting those who provide them, seeing as that has the most effect on the abortion rates. Harsh fines, losing their medical licenses and facilities, maybe some prison time, will effectively take care of most of the “supply” side of the supply and demand of abortion.
I’m uncomfortable with the way our criminal justice system focuses so much on punishing wrongdoers, instead of rehabilitating them and getting them to become contributing members of society. We already have thousands of young men each year going into our prison system and coming out hardened criminals after how they were treated and what they learned in there, I don’t think we want the same for young women in this country. There are other criminal justice models that our country can look to for maybe an alternate way of doing things, some countries have very low recidivism and are pretty successful at reintegrating those who break the law into society. Simply put, I don’t believe in punishment for punishment sake, I believe in making society safe. If that means less prison time for some crimes, but less crime overall, that’s fine with me.
And anyway, even with the harshest penalties I think that abortion will continue at high rates, unless we work on why people are choosing abortion in the first place. I think making an approach from that direction, along with targeting providers with sanctions will make a bigger dent than throwing aborting women in jail or charging them with murder.
Lrning, the vast majority of people that kill someone get jail time if they are caught. I do think you’d have trouble getting juries to return murder convictions against women who have abortions. I don’t recall how it was handled pre-Roe v. Wade. Were women prosecuted?
Lrning says:
February 9, 2013 at 3:52 pm
Denise,1) Not everyone that kills someone gets jail time
(Denise) If they are caught, they usually only avoid jail in accidents. Seeking an abortion is hardly an accident.
2) Abortion will NOT continue at the current rate if it becomes illegal
(Denise) So maybe instead of about 40% of women having abortions it will decrease to 30% or even just 25%. That is still an extraordinary percentage of women incarcerated. How do we deal with having such a large percentage of women behind bars?
I think one interesting aspect of the whole debate is the growing number of abortions done via pills as home. So if abortion were legal, and a woman got pills via a foreign website, you’d have no doctor to charge – all you’ve got is the woman.
Jon -
Not mocking God at all – in fact, a lot of denominations and scholars don’t support the DP in today’s society. Do you believe the Catholic Church is mocking God?
Hal says:
February 9, 2013 at 3:59 pm
Lrning, the vast majority of people that kill someone get jail time if they are caught. I do think you’d have trouble getting juries to return murder convictions against women who have abortions. I don’t recall how it was handled pre-Roe v. Wade. Were women prosecuted?
(Denise) Almost never. Abortion was illegal but in its own category. People weren’t prosecuted for murder or manslaughter but the specific offense called “abortion.” Usually, the people prosecuted were abortionists. The female getting the abortion might be prosecuted but that was extremely unusual.
It doesn’t make a lot of sense to prosecute the abortionist but not the girl or woman since she was the one who SOUGHT the operation (in most cases). However, even among those who most want abortion to be illegal, the pregnant girl or woman is often considered a “victim.” This might make some sort of sense if one takes into consideration the extremely intimate burden imposed by pregnancy.
Would punishment not deter women? Let’s consider why many seek abortions in the first place: not a convenient or ideal situation for the mom to have a baby for any number of reasons – relationships, support, education, career, finances …
Would going to jail or paying a fine be more convenient? Well, yes actually, in their thinking, because that would last x amount of months/dollars versus a lifetime.
There is still the whole concept of trusting authorities for a moral compass (there’s a term ?). i think it would deter women for this reason probably more so.
“Simply put, I don’t believe in punishment for punishment sake, I believe in making society safe”
Of course, Jack. It might make society safer for our smallest citizens and their moms. I disagree strongly that there would be no effect whatsoever.
Interesting points here that have been made are how we do know the baby was aborted intentionally and not accidentally. How would we even be able to prosecute an aborting woman who does it at home?
I think a problem is also if a woman aborts with medication at home or goes to canada and then has health issues do we want her to be too afraid to seek help? I wouldn’t want a woman to bleed to death during a medical abortion because she was afraid of incarceration.
i don’t know what the answer is honestly. I think going after the chop shops and the doctors who do the abortions is the best way to shut abortion down.
“Would punishment not deter women? Let’s consider why many seek abortions in the first place: not a convenient or ideal situation for the mom to have a baby for any number of reasons – relationships, support, education, career, finances …”
I don’t think pure punishment is an good thing for people and society, even if there’s a small deterrent effect, actually. Punishing someone doesn’t teach them anything besides “we think that was wrong and we will make you suffer so you know that”. Simply punishing people doesn’t help them with the circumstances that brought them to the place they are in their life where they committed the crime, and it doesn’t help them find a better way of dealing with whatever issue they are dealing with. That’s just in general. It creates a cycle of people committing the same crimes over and over because there isn’t any way out of their situation.
“There is still the whole concept of trusting authorities for a moral compass (there’s a term ?). i think it would deter women for this reason probably more so.”
?? I do agree that some people won’t commit crimes simply because they are illegal. Those people are generally not desperate or backed into a corner. I just don’t think this deterrent effect is big enough and comes at too great of a cost to all of us.
Sydnie M-
Women are dying and bleeding to death —TODAY!!!!!–google Tonya Reaves or
Marla Cardamone http://safeandlegal.com/
http://www.lifenews.com/2013/02/08/woman-dies-after-botched-33-week-abortion-takes-her-life/ (yesterday!!)
Alexandra Nunez died in a legal NYC abortion last year. How many more must die to wake people up?
@Bobby Bambino-
The church used to support the death penalty and has since tried to change
that.http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/death-penalty-capital-punishment/upload/5-723DEATHBI.pdf
I agree with the moral weight issue. The conversation started with: “Is it weird that Christians are for the death penalty when God commanded the death penalty?”
My evidence was to debunk that. The RC church does not support the death penalty any longer and (see above link) is actively working to change laws and policies.
The way anti-abortion laws have traditionally been enforced — prosecuting the abortionist and not the girl or woman — doesn’t really make a lot of sense. Perhaps people factor in the special burdens of pregnancy and, even if they believe the woman owes the unborn her womb but not her kidney, see the carrying to term and giving birth of an unwanted pregnancy as in some sense a “shirking” similar to the person who refuses the kidney donation. The former could be an unlawful shirking but it is seen as more similar to a kind of shirking than killing.
I like to see the number of comments in response to this post. I may not agree with all the comments, but I do like to see that the issue of abortion is very much alive even though its victims are not.
Blesski, I am well aware that a woman died a few days ago at Carhart’s hands. I know about Tanya Reaves. I have read numerous horrible stories of women having medical abortions who laid gasping on the floor of their bathroom convinced they were about to bleed out.
Not sure what the point of your comment was.
My point was that I didn’t want women to fear seeking medical attention after abortions should abortion become illegal. Are you disagreeing with my point?
Umm…I don’t care if it deters people or not, frankly. It should be illegal because it should not be legal to kill your child. Period. A child’s life is taken, and that child deserves justice. Screw deterrents, screw “Yes, but why did they do it?”
Reading some of these comments is really discouraging. It really doesn’t sound as though many people here actually DO view children before birth as “equal” to children post-birth.
Ex-RINO actually brought up a point I wanted to make myself-more and more, these abortions are going to be self-induced. And although I wouldn’t want laws in place to prevent anyone from traveling abroad to procure an abortion since no country should have that kind of power over its citizens, once abortion is illegal again, these are things that are going to HAVE to be addressed.
Of course it would be difficult to determine if many early pregnancies were forcibly terminated by a mother or were naturally miscarried, and then even if it were determined to be an abortion, if it were chemically-induced, it would be difficult once again to prove the woman willfully did it herself. Therefore, many of these women would escape justice. However, the ease with which one may skirt the law is hardly a reason to shirk the duty of at least trying to ensure justice for a society’s youngest members.
I’m not scared. I’m not backing down. I do not lack the courage of my convictions, and I’m untroubled by rocking boats or hurting feelings.
“It should be illegal because it should not be legal to kill your child. Period. A child’s life is taken, and that child deserves justice.”
I’m not sure how you’re defining “justice” is this comment.
“Umm…I don’t care if it deters people or not, frankly. It should be illegal because it should not be legal to kill your child. Period. A child’s life is taken, and that child deserves justice. Screw deterrents, screw “Yes, but why did they do it?” ”
Because you can’t change a societal problem by saying “screw deterrence, and screw ‘why did they do it'”? I do 100% agree with it being illegal to kill your child pre or post birth, totally agree. But I don’t equate punishment with justice, and I would like to reduce the perceived need for abortion and reduce actual incidences rather than impose harsh punishments, which I don’t think help anyway.
Look, the US is bad for crime. I think we are the worst out of the developed nations for recidivism and amount of prisoners. It’s not helping our crime rate, the way we are doing things.
“Reading some of these comments is really discouraging. It really doesn’t sound as though many people here actually DO view children before birth as “equal” to children post-birth.”
I feel the same way about people who kill their children post birth, actually. If it makes you feel any better. Actually, I feel about the same way about people who beat their children. Child abuse has been illegal for decades upon decades, and millions of kids still get beaten every day and plenty of them die. We haven’t tackled the issues behind it, and so it hasn’t gotten better. Criminalization is only one facet of the abortion issue, and the societal problems are of at least equal status with the fight for criminalization.
Carla,
I’m jumping in late here, but I wanted to ask you directly. I am not post-abortive so I won’t pretend to understand. But I have a few questions:
You mention the pain, regret, trauma, etc. that women endure for decades after their abortion, and I believe it completely. But does that really excuse them from the crime of killing the child? For example, it’s possible that Susan Smith deeply regrets killing her boys, or that Andrea Yates deeply regrets the murders of her children. The child in the womb is no less a child, no less human, no less a loss of life than those children were. Yet those mothers are rightfully charged, convicted, and in prison and the abortive mothers are not. Why?
How can we insist that the child in the womb is a human being with the right to life if we are unwilling to assign responsibility and guilt to the woman who chooses to kill that child? How can there be a different standard for the child in the womb than for the 2 year old, or the newborn?
I ask these questions knowing that women are very often coerced into an abortion, when they may not otherwise choose it. I realize that women feel pressured, young girls feel they have no other option, and in many, many ways, abortion is not a “freely” made choice. Yet, the trouble is, that doesn’t lessen the crime. It doesn’t make the babies any less dead. Their lives deserve justice. Their deaths deserve to be counted the same as any other child.
How can we do that if women are given impunity to kill them?
I’m genuinely asking — not seeking to hurt anyone or be needlessly argumentative. This to me is a very serious issue in the fight to abolish abortion. We can’t defend the humanity of the child in the womb, and at the same time excuse those making the “choice” to kill that child. I have no desire to see prisons full of women and young girls. It’s not vengeance I’m after. What is the right answer? I’m not sure.
@ Jen: As I’ve pointed out, the way abortion laws were forced in the past makes no sense if one considers abortion actually the same as murder or even manslaughter. The woman or girl sought the abortionist. Yet, when it was unlawful, the abortionist was usually prosecuted and the girl or woman was not.
In addition, the abortionist was specifically prosecuted for illegal abortion, not murder. The penalties could include prison but weren’t nearly as severe as those for murder.
I think it MIGHT be possible to understand this if we postulate that an abortion takes a human life but that the very special circumstances of pregnancy — the extraordinarily intimate multiple burdens imposed by pregnancy — make it in some sense analogous to a person refusing to donate a kidney or blood marrow to a person who needs it to survive. Yes, this analogy is VERY imperfect. Abortion is doing something and refusing the donation is just not doing something. The kidney is made for the person using it and the womb is made for the unborn. However, it remains true that the ONLY way for an embryo or fetus to survive is for the pregnant female to CARRY the unborn inside her body. This is so very different from even the care that an infant needs — and that can be handed to someone else — that abortion cannot be punished as “other” killings because in no other case does the “killer” kill because he or she refuses the most intimate possible use of her or his own body.
OK. Everyone is probably going to start on why abortion is wrong and the unborn deserve the body, etc. I don’t want to actually argue that. What I’m trying to explain is the simple fact that when abortion is illegal, those who get them are so rarely legally punished. Only by asserting that pregnancy is in a special category by virtue of the burden imposed is it possible to understand why the aborters aren’t punished when abortion is criminalized.
Now that we’ve got this question settled (ha), do you think it should be illegal to go to Canada for an abortion if illegal in the U.S.? That’s a law that would be difficult to enforce.
Well, I’d be for making abortion illegal in Canada too. Aside from that, we can draw a parallel with statutory rape laws. In Canada, an adult having sex with a fourteen-year old can be charged with an indictable offence (similar to a felony in the U.S). However, the same adult could take the same minor to Spain (where the age of consent is only 13). The fact that the law can be difficult or impossible to enforce across national borders shouldn’t preclude us from having it.
Carla,
I don’t have time to read all the comments so forgive me if this has been addressed, but your notion that no one can be held to have acted with purposeful intent unless they realized the spiritual bondage that would result from their crime is ludicrous. Do you really think there aren’t people sitting in jail right now who are just as sympathetic as mothers who abort? Who aren’t suffering from spiritual bondage as a result of their crimes? Who aren’t full of sincere, deep remorse? Of course there are. For women who are forced to abort against their will, the intent necessary for a murder prosecution wouldn’t be there anyway. For the others, remorse is good, but we’re going to give full legal immunity as a rule to the one who hired the hitman? Nothing else could prompt such a response except believing that women who participate in abortion are somehow more sympathetic than any other person who is ever involved in a murder and so they don’t deserve the same treatment under the law.
Also, as Xalise said, many many women know full well what they are doing, but they just don’t care. “I didn’t know I would feel this bad about it” does NOT mean they didn’t objectively KNOW what they were doing. There’s also another large subset of aborting mothers who remain willfully ignorant – they don’t WANT to know b/c it would be inconvenient to know. That is not an excuse under the law either.
This doesn’t mean I don’t have sympathy for aborting mothers who NEED healing. But many people in jail need healing. And we have no problem prosecuting them as a general rule.
But I don’t equate punishment with justice
I feel that the justice system seeking a penalty for a person’s death is part of that society recognizing the humanity of the victim. Failing to punish the perpetrator of a killing shows a carelessness in society as a whole for the life of the fallen. That is unjust.
” I feel that the justice system seeking a penalty for a person’s death is part of that society recognizing the humanity of the victim. Failing to punish the perpetrator of a killing shows a carelessness in society as a whole for the life of the fallen.”
I don’t agree. I think it shows carelessness for humanity if we refuse to actual look at the issues that lead to these problems in the first place, and are more worried about punishing a crime against someone after the fact than preventing it and looking at the “why” and “how can we fix this, how can we fix you so this never happens in the first place/again”.
Okay, like take my mom for example. Do you think that it would be better justice for me if she got thrown in jail for ten years for beating me mercilessly for years, or if we worked on ways to get mental healthcare or other types of help for people like her so less children are treated the way I was? I personally would feel like my pain meant something more if it was used to prevent more children suffering like me, than if she was just punished. I would rather see her treated and eventually realizing what she has done, rather than just thrown in prison.
This doesn’t apply to people who are still a danger to others, that is when I think it’s justified to lock people up, maybe for life depending on the crime. At least until they aren’t a danger to anyone.
“There are other criminal justice models that our country can look to for maybe an alternate way of doing things, some countries have very low recidivism and are pretty successful at reintegrating those who break the law into society.”
Totally agree with this, Jack. I’m actually a fan of restorative justice models (with modifications so that they function for a society like ours). But even under those models where the focus is different, I still see no reason for a woman to be granted immunity under the law. She should face prosecution even if the end result is not jail time (provided that such a result is the rule and not the exception for murder prosecutions).
” Totally agree with this, Jack. I’m actually a fan of restorative justice models (with modifications so that they function for a society like ours). But even under those models where the focus is different, I still see no reason for a woman to be granted immunity under the law. She should face prosecution even if the end result is not jail time (provided that such a result is the rule and not the exception for murder prosecutions).”
I don’t know, I am having trouble explaining what I mean. I don’t really think immunity is what I am arguing for even if it seems like that, lol. I just sincerely believe that “punishment” isn’t what justice is about, and rehabilitation, protecting future victims, and creating a society where this stuff is much less likely to happen are better goals than punishing people for what they have done. I don’t understand the vengeance aspect.
Ex-GOP had written, “And the sanctity of life circle is complete! (sarcasm) “
I had replied, “Are you mocking God? See Genesis 9:6. But you’re wrong. Justice is complete. Justice requires an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth; the punishment must fit the crime. Justice is the reason that my Saviour died and endured the eternal punishment of hell. As you know, the wages of sin is death.
Ex-GOP then replied, “Not mocking God at all – in fact, a lot of denominations and scholars don’t support the DP in today’s society. Do you believe the Catholic Church is mocking God?”
No, I believe that you were mocking God. You spoke sarcastically of the death penalty’s showing the “sanctity of human life.” And that’s exactly what it does. Read Genesis 9:6. When buying and selling, what is often one indication of something’s great worth? It’s high price! Count the cost. You obviously don’t understand justice, which is one of the attributes of God.
Let God be true, and every man a liar.
With even 10% of the female population in prison, we will have a society that looks quite a bit different than this one. Of course, if the laws are really effective, something like 20% of America’s women will be imprisoned for very lengthy terms.
An odd effect might be that the birthrate will actually decrease! Now a lady might abort when in her teens or early 20s, then have a baby or two a few years later. If she’s in prison, she will (probably) remain childless unless impregnated by guards.
This isn’t necessarily relevant but the possibility of getting pregnant by a male guard or visitor is one of the reasons I supported sterilizing that woman who had the compulsion to have babies and then kill them. Some people who objected said, “Just keep her in jail for long enough so she can’t get pregnant.” Prisoners get visitors and men guards are in women’s prisons so I supported the judge making the deal that makes her incapable of getting pregnant.
Back to the topic:the fact is we’re talking about taking a big chunk of the female population out of circulation.
I don’t understand the vengeance aspect.
Eh. I’m all about it.
I think that people changing their ways is the exception rather than the rule.
I think that some people are just going to want to (or don’t care if they) hurt other people, and there is nothing that can be done to change that.
It just warms the cockles of my heart to see someone get their comeuppance.
I just sincerely believe that “punishment” isn’t what justice is about, and rehabilitation, protecting future victims, and creating a society where this stuff is much less likely to happen are better goals than punishing people for what they have done. I don’t understand the vengeance aspect.
Jack, If your ex beat the snot out of or raped one of your children, you’d be okay with her being required to attend counseling and having supervised visitation?
Blesski @2:39 PM
It’s possible I wrote about carrying a child through after a rape – I’ve written in the past that rather than looking upon the child as punishment, there are cultures where the child is seen as a gift. It’s almost as though God has provided the opportunity for the mother to raise her child direct defiance of the rapist. Beauty can be redeemed from the harshest of situations, but it’s a matter of looking for love and not vengeance.
“I don’t really think immunity is what I am arguing for even if it seems like that, lol.I just sincerely believe that “punishment” isn’t what justice is about, and rehabilitation, protecting future victims, and creating a society where this stuff is much less likely to happen are better goals than punishing people for what they have done.”
Based on the totality of your comments over time, I think I understand the vision you have for the justice system – and I believe you would apply that vision across the board. That’s why I wanted to comment to tell you that I agree with a lot of aspects of that vision, though I’m sure we would differ in many ways as well.
What I see being argued for by others is our current system, but with this exception for mothers who abort. Blanket immunity from prosecution b/c not one single woman who aborts should ever be subject to the criminal law against abortions. Why? because she’s really really suffering. She’s suffering so much now that she couldn’t have possibly known what she was doing then. Not in a given instance, but in every instance – no legal consequences whatsoever. No examination of the facts. No charging discretion…just nothing. An unadulterated victim of the entire situation from start to finish. And the same people seem perfectly content with our justice system, as is, being used to prosecute other people who break the law. People who they seem to assume couldn’t possibly be as sympathetic or subject to as many competing difficulties in their choices as a post-abortion woman was.
” Jack, If your ex beat the snot out of or raped one of your children, you’d be okay with her being required to attend counseling and having supervised visitation? ”
Not sure if you were asking a serious question, trying for a “gotcha” question, or going for upsetting me but I’ll answer. My first and main concern in that situation would be protecting my kid and making sure they could not be hurt again. My other main concern would be my child’s mental and physical healing from the incident. My concerns regarding my ex would be that my and other children would be protected from any further violence, and that she would be be rehabilitated and whatever issues that caused her violence would be helped as much as possible (though if the issue was sexual abuse, I doubt she could be rehabilitated or “fixed”, so that would be a situation where prison is required). If she was still a danger to children or others, I would like to see her behind bars or otherwise kept from damaging anyone.
Of course, that’s assuming I don’t have a psychotic break and kill her for it. Probably a 50/50 chance either way. If I were still in control of my mental facilities my kids would need me, and I don’t think vengeance against their mom would be helping.
” What I see being argued for by others is our current system, but with this exception for mothers who abort. Blanket immunity from prosecution b/c not one single woman who aborts should ever be subject to the criminal law against abortions. Why? because she’s really really suffering. She’s suffering so much now that she couldn’t have possibly known what she was doing then. Not in a given instance, but in every instance – no legal consequences whatsoever. No examination of the facts. No charging discretion…just nothing. An unadulterated victim of the entire situation from start to finish. And the same people seem perfectly content with our justice system, as is, being used to prosecute other people who break the law. People who they seem to assume couldn’t possibly be as sympathetic or subject to as many competing difficulties in their choices as a post-abortion woman was. ”
Oh yeah, I don’t understand this view at all. If you’re worried about aborting mothers being prosecuted and being thrown in jail, you should at the very least be concerned how the justice system treats other offenders, especially those of “victimless” crimes like drug possession and such.
If one does not believe that abortion should be treated as murder, then they don’t believe unborn babies are human, and are really not pro-life.
Don’t believe the lies….
Not sure if you were asking a serious question, trying for a “gotcha” question, or going for upsetting me but I’ll answer.
???? I am serious. Not trying to “gotcha” or upset anyone. Apologies if it came across in a non-serious or upsetting way. I’m asking because this topic has got me thinking (and re-thinking some of my views) and I want to further discuss the issues it has brought up with others. Your post talked about rehabilitation and punishment and vengeance.
My first and main concern in that situation would be protecting my kid and making sure they could not be hurt again. My other main concern would be my child’s mental and physical healing from the incident.
I’m assuming as with most parents, this goes without saying but I was asking about her being rehabilitated versus her being punished.
If she was still a danger to children or others, I would like to see her behind bars or otherwise kept from damaging anyone.
If she were put behind bars, is she not being punished instead of rehabilitated?
First this I don’t understand the vengeance aspect and then this Of course, that’s assuming I don’t have a psychotic break and kill her for it. Probably a 50/50 chance either way.
I think you do understand the vengeance aspect, Jack.
” ???? I am serious. Not trying to “gotcha” or upset anyone. Apologies if it came across in a non-serious or upsetting way. I’m asking because this topic has got me thinking (and re-thinking some of my views) and I want to further discuss the issues it has brought up with others. Your post talked about rehabilitation and punishment and vengeance.”
Okay, sorry I am just oversensitive when it comes to my kids, I took the question the wrong way.
” If she were put behind bars, is she not being punished instead of rehabilitated?”
In our country? Yeah, for the most part. Our prisons are set up to incarcerate people, not rehabilitate them. I thought I made it clear that I don’t agree with that. Even if people are dangerous and need to be put away for a time (or forever, in some cases), the way we are doing so is causing more damage. We take people who made a stupid mistake and put them with dangerous people, and then we’re surprised when they come out dangerous and committing more crimes. In the case with my wife, if she wasn’t a danger to anyone else I don’t see the point of punishing or incarcerating her. I would honestly rather she get counseling and the issues that caused the violence be addressed. I think that incarceration should be reserved to keeping dangerous people from getting hold of new victims.
” I think you do understand the vengeance aspect, Jack.
I’m only human! I more meant I don’t understand why we want to legislate vengeance rather than try for a safer country all together. Didn’t mean I didn’t understand having vengeful feelings.
This whole thread sickens and saddens me for reasons I can’t explain.
It is about vengeance and punishment and what reads to me like hate. Ok. For those that do not know Jesus I understand. Punish them good.
What I do not understand is that RIGHT NOW when women are suffering and struggling after their abortions they receive help and hope and healing from Rachel’s Vineyard, Bible studies(Forgiven and Set Free, Her Choice to Heal, Surrendering the Secret, Save One etc) and Silent No More. You all seem good with that. I mean all of those lead women to the Only One that can heal. You are good with us marching with our I Regret My Abortion signs and helping to bring down BIG ABORTION by telling the world what it has wrought in our lives. AND when all of us get to prison together you will find Carla there. In her orange jumpsuit(even though orange is not really my color)leading a group through a post abortive study. Prison Ministry. Yeah. I could totally do that.
When the day comes that abortion is again illegal in the United States, should mothers who seek clandestine abortions be charged with murder along with their abortionists?
SEEKING one constitutes murder?
Still wondering where the venom is for the abortionists??
Shut the mills down say buh bye to the abortionists.
And my answer is still NO. I have my own reasons and I will leave it at that.
I will leave you to decide our fate and remind myself next time this subject comes up not to bother.
I’m sorry Carla.
Sigh. I’m as tempted as anyone to come down hard on women who abort. I’ve always known it was just as wrong as stealing or any other type of murder. But not everybody sits down to think about it as much as we bookworm / wallflower types. They’re too busy going out and getting in trouble.
I’d like to think I’d have known slavery was wrong if I lived a couple centuries ago. But when society tells you it’s okay, few there are who fight against it. At least at first.
I do buy the “they didn’t know any better” or “they were in denial” lines of thought. It’ll be a few decades post-abolition of abortion before we can say they have no excuse. The culture really has to change to life-affirming first.
In the meantime, let’s satisfy ourselves with throwing the heaviest books possible at all these so-called doctors and nurses who darn well do know better.
This is a very tough question we must confront. If we really believe abortion kills a human being, then abortion is murder. And those involved should be charged accordingly. The abortionists do the actual killing. Staff are co-conspirators and mothers, fathers, anyone taking the mother to the abortion is an accomplice.
Any murder also wounds the murderer and accomplice, etc. So with abortionists, staff, mothers, fathers, etc. They are all injured, though the abortionist and staff reap a profit. Was the mother a willing accomplice? That should be decided on a case-by-case basis.
Post-abortive mothers do owe something to people besides themselves. I’m sorry to say that their actions- intentionally or not- robbed other people of siblings, grandchildren, nieces and nephews, etc. Post-abortion healing is important. And SO IS addressing other people who lost loved ones from abortion. That’s where the punitive, restorativr action of the law comes into effect.
I more meant I don’t understand why we want to legislate vengeance rather than try for a safer country all together.
Isn’t putting anyone in jail/prison legislating vengeance? Haven’t some abortionists been rehabilitated? When abortion becomes illegal, do we not put the abortionist in jail either? Yes, shutting down the mills must happen but what should we do about those abortionists who are caught doing illegal abortions?
Please believe, I’m not asking these questions to cause angst, divisions or trauma. I care about many of you on this thread and we all have a little different way of thinking about this issue.
Jack, I certainly struggle with our prison systems too and realize that many in the “justice” system are more criminal than those behind bars. I also believe that jail has led some to Christ as well, though.
Legalized abortion has sure screwed up a lot of things.
” Isn’t putting anyone in jail/prison legislating vengeance? Haven’t some abortionists been rehabilitated? When abortion becomes illegal, do we not put the abortionist in jail either? Yes, shutting down the mills must happen but what should we do about those abortionists who are caught doing illegal abortions?”
I thought I already explained myself on this. I don’t think incarcerating those who are still a danger to others has to be vengeance, it’s just the only way to keep people safe when people refuse to stop their dangerous behavior. The way we treat incarceration now in this country however, has little to do with people’s safety and more to do with punishing those we see as wrong-doers. I see that as counter-productive.
About people performing illegal abortions, that would probably end up falling under incarceration to protect others, if they had already been fined and lost their licenses, or other measures to rehabilitate them and protect others have failed.
” Jack, I certainly struggle with our prison systems too and realize that many in the “justice” system are more criminal than those behind bars. I also believe that jail has led some to Christ as well, though.”
Well, I will tell you that I used to run with some of those ex-cons that “found God” in prison, but they went back to their former lives when they got out because it’s not like there are a lot of options for those with drug or violence convictions. That’s why I think rehabilitation is much more important than punishment. You can throw someone in jail to punish them for selling heroin and beating someone up, but once they get out (with a fresh criminal record to prevent them from obtaining legit jobs), the issues that had them doing what they did in the first place are still present. Not to mention the sexual and physical violence and drug smuggling that’s present in a lot of prisons, which leaves a lot of cons terribly damaged, even more than they were in the first place.
And we want to put a bunch of scared young women in places like that?
“About people performing illegal abortions, that would probably end up falling under incarceration to protect others, if they had already been fined and lost their licenses, or other measures to rehabilitate them and protect others have failed.”
Other measures? Like creating a law that says don’t kill babies in horrifying ways? Perhaps we could just have a giant group hug and he could promise not to do it again.
In the case with my wife, if she wasn’t a danger to anyone else I don’t see the point of punishing or incarcerating her. I would honestly rather she get counseling and the issues that caused the violence be addressed.
I was one who liked your post but after re-reading it, I have to say, that if anyone beats up my child, I would want them both counseled and incarcerated.
I think that incarceration should be reserved to keeping dangerous people from getting hold of new victims.
What about the ‘old’ victim? People who beat their children (or anyone) are dangerous people. This reminds me of when the GAL in my divorce talked favorably in regards to my ex saying on the order of, “one would think he would have a record by now if he does what she claims.”
Yeah, one would think he would have had a record because police were called and others knew what he was doing. He never had a record because he was never held accountable with jail time to amass any kind of record. He looked like a pretty good fellow on paper. I believe that this is in part responsible for my staying so long. “Well, his breaking my nose must not have been that bad; after all, they never put him in jail.” I tried harder and harder to be a better wife and his entitlement grew and grew.
Praxedes,
I can’t speak for Jack, but my understanding of restorative justice (at least the concept I support) doesn’t rule out prison but rather takes a different view of the purpose of prison. It’s necessary to incarcerate people who must be kept away from the public b/c they can not or will not behave in socially acceptable ways, but for others the end goal is to ultimately attempt to reintegrate people as productive citizens. Even when prison is involved in such cases, the focus is on both justice and reintegration and healing. I don’t know if this helps conceptually with the idea of rejecting a vengeance model while still embracing the need for prisons as a tool for justice.
Carla,
“What I do not understand is that RIGHT NOW when women are suffering and struggling after their abortions they receive help and hope and healing from Rachel’s Vineyard, Bible studies(Forgiven and Set Free, Her Choice to Heal, Surrendering the Secret, Save One etc) and Silent No More. You all seem good with that.”
This is what I’m saying. What about this statement does not apply to other people who get prosecuted? None of them find Christ? Healing? Help? There are no prison ministries now? What does that have to do with legal culpability? Are we tying our justice system now to those who find God? This is my question. What is unique about women who seek abortion that they should now and forever have blanket immunity from legal consequences when no other category of people does for ANY other wrongdoing. The only thing in our legal system that even resembles what you’re proposing is the presumption that children under a certain age are incapable of forming criminal intent due to their minority. That presumption becomes rebuttable (meaning an argument can be made that they DID have the necessary intent for prosecution) at a very young age. But post-abortive women (how about men?) get a blanket immunity forever….no examination of facts?
“AND when all of us get to prison together you will find Carla there. In her orange jumpsuit(even though orange is not really my color)leading a group through a post abortive study. Prison Ministry. Yeah. I could totally do that.”
Yes, I have no doubt you would be there. As a free woman. Who couldn’t be prosecuted. Because our constitution forbids it. Which you know b/c people have told you multiple times. And you would continue to be amazing ministering to women in need whatever the circumstances.
“Other measures? Like creating a law that says don’t kill babies in horrifying ways? Perhaps we could just have a giant group hug and he could promise not to do it again.”
I’ve not argued for abortion staying legal or acceptable even once on this thread, so I’m not sure what you are referring to.
” What about the ‘old’ victim? People who beat their children (or anyone) are dangerous people. This reminds me of when the GAL in my divorce talked favorably in regards to my ex saying on the order of, “one would think he would have a record by now if he does what she claims.””
I think your ex, how you have described him, doesn’t seem to have any responsibility for how he acted and probably needed to be incarcerated to keep you safe. Maybe if he was in a place where he couldn’t harm you but he was also getting some type of treatment he might have turned his life around. I don’t remember if you’ve ever told me whatever happened to him, you and the kids never see him do you?
I haven’t argued even once that those who are in danger of hurting people again shouldn’t be kept from doing so with incarceration. I’m arguing against the more punitive aspects of our “justice” system. Unless we are arguing that someone who beats someone up should be imprisoned forever at the first offense, the rehabilitation aspect of the justice system needs to be addressed.
Thanks CT your first paragraph is basically what I’m trying to get across.
“Other measures? Like creating a law that says don’t kill babies in horrifying ways? Perhaps we could just have a giant group hug and he could promise not to do it again.”
“I’ve not argued for abortion staying legal or acceptable even once on this thread, so I’m not sure what you are referring to.”
Sorry, Jack – that was me being a crab. My point is that if there is a law saying don’t kill people’s babies for profit, prison seems suitable for abortionists, regardless of the model for what happens there.
Reminds me of a Law and Order episode where a killer who killed his sister’s boyfriend because he didn’t want her dating a black guy argued that he shouldn’t be in jail because he had become a born-again Christian. Well rather his lawyer argued it but in the end the guy took a stiff prison sentence and turned down a plea deal because he felt he should be in prison for what he had done and felt this was God’s justice. The lawyer had argued that after the murder the killer had donated all his money and time to helping others and so should be exonerated.
I believe the way our judicial system is set up is merely to punish, not to rehabilitate. Not that rehabilitation wouldn’t be a good thing and ultimately help society. My church runs a prison ministry where they reach out to women who are in jail and minister spiritually to them and are there emotionally for them as well. And we’ve set up support in a few instances for the women when they get out. Or for instance, some of the women had husbands/boyfriends and children that needed help so we helped those families while the mom was in prison.
There was that mom recently who drowned her child and just got out of a mental hospital after 3 years. Anyone remember that?
THAT to me is a miscarriage of justice. Rehabilitation yes, but there should still be justice. One doesn’t have to be sacrificed for the other.
This is what I’m talking about. She killed her kid. Do we say “Oh she is suffering enough.” Do we shake our heads and say “Well she will feel terrible guilt for the rest of her lives and she was deceived by Satan into thinking murdering her child was okay.” That may be true…but does that mean her daughter deserves no justice? Does that mean this woman deserves no punishment? My point is…what is the difference between what this woman did and abortion? Is there a difference?
And do we go the route of rehabilitation with no punishment whatsoever for wrong committed? So innocent victims suffer but the perpetrators only experience rehabilitation and nothing worse? How is that fair?
I just keep coming back to either we think the unborn are people or we don’t. Either we think abortion is the killing of an innocent human being or we don’t. I don’t know the logistics involved with enforcing a law that punishes women who choose to abort after it is criminalized but the issue itself seems pretty clear to me. Abortion is murder and if you do it you should face some type of judicial punishment.
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/01/22/patterson-woman-who-drowned-daughter-ruled-no-longer-insane/
Carla wrote, “AND when all of us get to prison together you will find Carla there. In her orange jumpsuit(even though orange is not really my color)leading a group through a post abortive study. Prison Ministry. Yeah. I could totally do that.”
Two Canadian women, Linda Gibbons and Mary Wagner have been doing just that, or something very similar certainly. Mary Gibbons has spent a total of ten years in jail so far (repeated arrests and sentences) for violating a “temporary” injunction against peacefully protesting in front of a certain abortion clinic.
http://www.catholicregister.org/news/canada/item/15350-pro-life-activist-linda-gibbons-counts-on-christ%E2%80%99s-strength
On October 31, 2012, Andrea Mrozek wrote on the “Pro-woman, Pro-life” blog:
I actually spoke to Linda Gibbons on the phone this past week. It was a call that left me both inspired and somewhat shaken.
Inspired because she was such a passionate, eloquent spokesperson for freedom, for children not yet born and for those who have already died and for women. All at the same time. In fact, some of the most touching moments in our short conversation were when she spoke of the women she speaks to in prison who are largely there on drug and prostitution-related charges. Linda tells them not to label themselves: You are not a prostitute. Or a drug dealer. In short, she is instilling value and worth into these women’s lives, who then look for her when they come back to jail. I’m simply not doing the conversation justice in this post. And to be perfectly honest, I had not mentioned the conversation on this blog because I want to see if I can publish something about her in the mainstream press before I publish the whole conversation here.
But I was also shaken because encountering someone who is both in and out of jail with regularity but wholeheartedly embracing the passionate call on her life is something I cannot describe. In that conversation I felt far too comfortable in the manner that I fight for women, the unborn and freedom in Canada. What am I giving up? What should I give up? What am I called to do? As I spoke to her it was as if a prophet had stepped out of the pages of the Bible. I don’t mean to place her on a pedestal; there were things she said I disagreed with as well. But these were minor points in the context of a bigger conversation that was absolutely awe-inspiring.
Remember Linda Gibbons in your prayers if you pray, because when I asked her what would help her most in her struggle she said it would help “if I had greater faith.”
Carla wrote, “It is about vengeance and punishment and what reads to me like hate. Ok. For those that do not know Jesus I understand. Punish them good.”
A little later in the same comment, Carla wrote, “Still wondering where the venom is for the abortionists?? Shut the mills down say buh bye to the abortionists.”
Aren’t you showing a desire for vengeance, too, Carla? For a Biblical perspective on vengeance (and hatred), go to Romans 12-13. Romans 12 tells us to leave vengeance to God and to love our enemy. Romans 13 tell us God will certainly avenge, and His minister of vengeance is the civil government. In other words, it’s the civil government’s job to punish evil-doers. And a ruler “does not bear the sword for nothing.”
And, again, that God is concerned with vengeance (justice) goes all the way back to Genesis 9:5, “And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting.” Actually, it goes even farther back to Cain, the first murderer, whose murdered brother’s blood cried out to God from the ground. And it maybe even goes back to the Garden of Eden, where a Deliverer was promised to conquer Satan, who had ruined God’s creation.
I haven’t argued even once that those who are in danger of hurting people again houldn’t be kept from doing so with incarceration.
Those who are in danger of hurting people again are those who have hurt people in the first place. Why should someone who beats their spouse or child not do jail the first time? How do we know which batterers will batter again?
In the case with my wife, if she wasn’t a danger to anyone else I don’t see the point of punishing or incarcerating her. I would honestly rather she get counseling and the issues that caused the violence be addressed.
Why should she not be put in jail for beating her child the first time? What message does this send others? ”Well, if we thought she was a danger to others, we’d jail her but since she was just a danger to her own child, we’ll counsel her.” Address the issues that caused the violence? Couldn’t this apply to a first-time rapist and an abortionist as well? Rehab them all in jail. And, no, I’m not talking the same sentence for all crimes but justice should be served for the victims of crime.
Two of my children are now adults. When we first divorced, I started out with primary placement and at one point I went back to court asking for full time custody based on what was going on in his home. The GAL had a lot of influence and pointed out his lack of a record and she fell for his line that he really wanted his children half time.
Instead of me getting more time, he was given half placement which as you know affects child support. After this, he basically dropped out of their lives which was what was best for them anyway (and not having to pay support is what he really wanted).
I have never gone back to court to explain that he doesn’t take the children because I was fearful the court might give him full custody! On paper, he is shown to have had raised his children half time but in reality he has only seen them a handful of times per year in the years since he was given half custody.
Some of you may have read Cry, the Beloved Country in high school. My mother did, and so did I about twenty years later. Alan Paton, the author, was familiar with the criminal justice system in South Africa. It’s a beautiful book, expressing the complexity of a broken world in very simple language. Although I think that Mr. Paton was against capital punishment, I like his treatment of Absalom, the prodigal son, who was actually not the murderer who did deserve the death penalty, but he was blamed by his accomplices, being vulnerable because of honesty and repentance. On the day Absalom was executed in the “black hole” of Johannesburg (because in that book all go there but none return), his father went to the top of a hill before daybreak to pray and await the time of execution. He had instructed his son, who was scared to die, to trust in God. He had taken back out of Johannesburg, after a proper marriage ceremony, the girl whom Absalom had made pregnant, to treat her as his daughter from then on in.
Christians believe that death has lost its sting. The subject of The Screwtape Letters died prematurely in the Second World War. The devils became especially angry and vindictive because he had won. He had entered heaven. The death penalty of one of the thieves crucified beside Jesus actually became his opportunity for salvation and his entrance into life that very same day.
Yes, I know these matters are difficult. But then, what does John 3:16 say? How can we so easily repeat it and not realize its implications? Justice should not surprise us; grace should.
Praxedes, I’m exhausted and this conversation is stressing me out, so I’ll try to answer you tomorrow. Have a good night.
I’m probably over-simplifying, but the Bible seems to anticipate and solve Jack’s concern about vengeance and punishment. Jack wants to fight back and give evil its due reward, but he realizes that man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. However, not believing in God (and His use of the civil government, what Jack refers to as “legislating vengeance”), Jack does not know what to do.
Jack wrote, “Of course, that’s assuming I don’t have a psychotic break and kill her for it. Probably a 50/50 chance either way… I’m only human! I more meant I don’t understand why we want to legislate vengeance rather than try for a safer country all together. Didn’t mean I didn’t understand having vengeful feelings.”
The apostle Paul wrote, “Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’ says the Lord” (Rom. 12:19). “[The ruler] is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer“ (Rom. 13:4b).
Jill quoted the Ames Tribune as concisely writing, “Those charged with murder, under the [Ohio] bill, would include a mother who takes abortion-inducing drugs or a doctor who performs an abortion. It also grants no exceptions for rape, incest or to protect the life of the mother.”
Ex-GOP wrote, “…and thus logically, one day Texas could execute a woman for having an abortion.”
except that there is more than one degree of murder in the American justice system, and only the worst gets the death penalty. Jespren wrote convincingly about criminal intent. Could a murder charge for a deliberate chemical abortion be prosecuted? Could that part of the Ohio bill be enforced?
Chris Arsenault wrote, “The problem comes with troubled pregnancies. We don’t have perfect knowledge of perfect development. A child may very well die of natural causes in-utero. Autopsies would reveal foul-play, but are we willing to go there? Accidents do happen. Ingestion of fetal toxic substances can be unknown by a mother. it would be a miscarriage of justice if a woman didn’t want a child, but was willing to carry, only to lose the child naturally, then be prosecuted for overheard remarks. I’m reminded of Terri Schiavo…”
Xalisae wrote, “Fetal autopsy is already a thing. I don’t see why we don’t autopsy children who die in utero already, just like we do for born people.”
There might be the problem of a missing body. A miscarrying mother is allowed to dispose of the corpse, often very small, in the way she chooses. And might not the cost of enforcement be too high? Many pre-born children naturally die in the first trimester.
I also read somewhere that all through history many children have died through “crib death,” and some of them were deliberately suffocated, i.e. infanticide. However, there was no way to know whether a baby had died naturally or whether somebody had killed him.
God has already credited murder to her already.
Has she repented of that charge, before her meeting at the great judgement seat of Christ, that truly is critical!
Doesn’t the legal system recognize the Christian principle that it’s wrong for me to take my own life?–that God makes that decision, not me? I remember one of my baby-sitters long ago mentioning to me the legal question she was studying: should attempted suicide be punished? Perhaps a forced abortion (i.e. not a natural miscarriage) should be dealt with in the same way that an attempted suicide is.
The Ames Tribune wrote that the Ohio bill “grants no exceptions for rape, incest or to protect the life of the mother.”
I understand the reasoning: abortionists lie and justify every abortion as necessary to save the life of the mother. When my cousin had a D & C operation for an ectopic pregnancy, it was not called an abortion. (And the reasoning was that there was no desire to kill the child but actually to save the lives of both; however, neither the baby nor the mother survives an ectopic pregnancy.) Would such a procedure still be allowed under the Ohio bill?
The short answer is YES! It would keep most women from getting one just like it keeps most women from committing any serious crimes. It would also deter parents from forcing their daughters into having abortions. On the other hand, given that the heart of man is so wicked, it is quite possible that a very intricate system of black market abortions would arise. Just because you make it illegal, it wont completely make it go away, it would only deter some. And some is better than none.
Hi Jon, 5:25am
People aren’t put in prison for attempted suicide, so the state does view attempted self murder differently. I remember years ago when I worked ER that attempted suicides had to be involuntarily committed, much to their shock. Geez, they only meant to give someone a scare. A 48 hour commitment to the county mental health facility wasn’t in the plans and sure wasn’t the romantic ending they had fantasized. That wasn’t uncommon. They also liked the theatrics of refusing treatment, unaware that we could, and would, strap them down if necessary and forcibly treat them.
I read that New Jersey is now considering assisted suicide. One disabled woman said she wished the state would concern themselves with making life better, not death. Its also been my experience that assisted suicide isn’t necessary. People who want to kill themselves will, and there is nothing on God’s green planet that will stop them. I would support the use of heroin for terminal patients. Why not? Its certainly no secret among medical people that doctors have long given terminal patients the pain medication needed to keep them comfortable knowing full well it could be a lethal dose. Morphine drips being one of them. Patients were also given prescriptions for pain meds. If they wanted to overdose badly enough, who was going to stop them? Also, there is better hospice care, nerve blocks, and pain relief available.
I remember one young woman who took a deliberate tyelenol overdose to get back at her boyfriend. The ER doc told her “I hope this guy was worth it because you’ve just knocked 20 years off your life”. She had trashed her liver with the acetominophen. She thought tyelenol was harmless and a safe way to give her boyfriend a good scare. The best she could hope for within the next 20 years was a liver transplant, and being this was self inflicted, she wouldn’t be at the top of the list, if she was even considered at all.
what about the mothers, fathers, boyfriends, husbands etc etc etc that force a woman to abort? do they ultimately have the power to walk out of the clinic? yes, but trying being a teen who is pressured by a parent or a woman whose husband threatens leaving if she does not abort.
what about society that has sanctioned abortion on demand and kept the truth from women, and allowed 55 million deaths ? It is true that there are still many women who do not know the truth. People on here may not think so because they are so involved with the issue, but go to a college campus or a high school and you will find out how misinformed they are.
If Roe vs Wade is overturned it is going back to the states…this is a question that just inflames division and hurts women who are not healed who read it. In fact, it is an issue brought by by pro chiocers in 2008 to get people to want to keep it legal.
http://reclaimingourchildren.typepad.com/lumina_a_ray_of_light_aft/2008/10/how-much-jail-time.html
Seems like especially with Lent right around the corner we could be showing the mercy of Christ who died for our sins instead…
what about the mothers, fathers, boyfriends, husbands etc etc etc that force a woman to abort? do they ultimately have the power to walk out of the clinic? yes, but trying being a teen who is pressured by a parent or a woman whose husband threatens leaving if she does not abort.
what about society that has sanctioned abortion on demand and kept the truth from women, and allowed 55 million deaths ? It is true that there are still many women who do not know the truth. People on here may not think so because they are so involved with the issue, but go to a college campus or a high school and you will find out how misinformed they are.
If Roe vs Wade is overturned it is going back to the states…this is a question that just inflames division and hurts women who are not healed who read it. In fact, it is an issue brought by by pro choicers in 2008 to get people to want to keep it legal.
http://reclaimingourchildren.typepad.com/lumina_a_ray_of_light_aft/2008/10/how-much-jail-time.html
Seems like especially with Lent right around the corner we could be showing the mercy of Christ who died for our sins instead…
Carla,
As a post abortive father who was complicit before the fact in the homicide of my pre-natal son, I bear equal responsibility with his mother and the hired assassin.
I do not blame either the mother or the contract killer for my ‘choice’ and for my actions that flowed from the ‘choice’.
But that does not relieve the mother and the doctor of their individual responsibility and accountability.
Like you, I have confessed my sin and I have received GOD’s forgiveness and his forgiveness and I am free from the guilit and the shame and the penaltly that HIS law demanded for shedding innocent blood.
But that does not mean that the civil law has been satisfied.
Experience has demonstrated that crimes against humanity are still punishable, even when they were not illegal at the time they were committed.
I would be a liar if I were to claim my ‘flesh’ would not be gratified to see a man like Leroy Carhart hanging from the gallows next to mine.
But I also would be a liar if I were to claim I did not not know my attitude was displeasing to GOD because I know GOD loves Leroy Carhart so much that Jesus puchased Leroy’s forgivness with HIS own life.
O unhappy and pitiable and wretched man that I am! Who will release and deliver me from [the shackles of] this body of death?
O thank God! [He will!] through Jesus Christ (the Anointed One) our Lord! So then indeed I, of myself with the mind and heart, serve the Law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin.
THEREFORE, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus [the law of our new being] has freed me from the law of sin and of death.
Holding only abortionists accountable makes little sense logically but makes sense emotionally. It is based on certain biologically based truths. Males seek out the sex act that leads to pregnancy. Females bear (literally) the consequences. Our society has attempted to compensate females for these truths.
Mary, you sure have some sad stories, especially the last one of the girl trying to scare her boyfriend. My grandmother recently died naturally after many years of Alzheimer’s. We had been praying for God to take her, but we had to wait a long time. Assisted suicide is wrong; however, there’s nothing wrong with letting a dying person die. Still basic nutrition should not be withheld, the Roman Catholic Church argues, as was the case with Terri Schiavo.
I had suggested that perhaps a forced abortion (i.e. not a natural miscarriage) should be dealt with in the same way that an attempted suicide is. But I was not thinking very logically, I realize now. Attempted suicide is only comparable to attempted murder, which would not be judged as harshly as murder.
People on here may not think so because they are so involved with the issue, but go to a college campus or a high school and you will find out how misinformed they are.
Theresa, for the record, I want to state that I do realize how pressured women are to abort by society. The fact that abortion is currently legal now is very confusing to many.
I know how pressured and misled women can be to abort by schools, doctors, teachers, friends and most sadly by boyfriends/spouses and parents, those who should love her the most. I have been there myself with two of three pregnancies and have always said if I wasn’t raised prolife and didn’t have the support of my mom, I might have caved as well.
I am also thinking of the other side that people here have pointed out. My brother’s ex wanted to abort my niece. He begged and cried on his knees for her to have the baby telling her he would raise the child alone if need be. She toyed with my brother’s emotions and love for her and his child. After abortion is illegal again, how do we deal with women who will go through with illegal abortions in spite of having support? I understand many won’t be found out because they will say they miscarried but in cases where she is found out doesn’t the father and others deserve some justice? I believe justice is way different than vengeance, btw.
“I hope this guy was worth it because you’ve just knocked 20 years off your life”.
Ugh. what a terrible thing for a doctor to say to a young person who just overdosed. This doc should be required to get some rehabilitation as well.
I agree that this is a stressful conversation, Jack. I hope we will all be kind to and listen to each other points. I am learning from many here and appreciate and respect yours and others conversations and views.
@Praexdes: I’ve previously discussed a friend who told me that if he impregnated a woman she would abort because, in his words, “I would have made her life so miserable she would have had to abort just to get some peace.”
He is a handsome man. His social has recently picked up. I mailed him a list of clinics close to him that perform vasectomies.
@Praexdes: I’ve previously discussed a friend who told me that if he impregnated a woman she would abort because, in his words, “I would have made her life so miserable she would have had to abort just to get some peace.”
He is a handsome man. His social life has recently picked up. I mailed him a list of clinics close to him that perform vasectomies.
what about society that has sanctioned abortion on demand and kept the truth from women, and allowed 55 million deaths ? It is true that there are still many women who do not know the truth. People on here may not think so because they are so involved with the issue, but go to a college campus or a high school and you will find out how misinformed they are.
Yes, legal abortion has wreaked havoc in our society, and will continue to do so even after it is made illegal. The podcast that Navi linked to earlier in this thread addresses this issue. For true justice to be served, we may need a system of graduated charges/sentences to allow for the education that needs to take place regarding abortion.
As for our penal system, it’s another facet of our society that is broken and needs major reform. When abortion becomes illegal, I won’t be advocating for women that have abortions to spend time in jail. But they will be guilty of a crime. And there should be legal consequences.
Hi Prax,
Sure, not a very nice thing to say but in the ER you eventually reach your limit when it comes to human stupidity. Truth isn’t always very nice and yes people can be very stupid. Sadly this young woman did very foolishly knock twenty years off her life and the doctor said this to her not to be unkind, but more out of frustration over such a foolish and senseless waste.
We saw a lot of this, people OD-ing for attention and you got a little fed up with it, especially when someone would sit there and smart alecky tell us they wouldn’t drink the ipecac to induce vomiting. This same doc told a woman that she had a choice, ipecac or forced stomach pumping, period. When she still refused, he told me to get the leather restraints. She drank the ipecac. Then it was to the county mental hospital for 48 hours.
You have to prove criminal intent in a murder charge, not *just* that someone died, but that someone *intended* to murder (different from say a manslaughter or homicide charge). Murder can only be proved with *intent* to kill, you can’t be found guilty of murder if you had no *intent* to kill someone, even if you *did* kill someone, you can be found guilty of lesser chargers like manslaughter, but not “murder”.
Whatever law school you attended needs to reevaluate its standards. Most states have a variant of a “felony-murder” law that allows murder charges when a death occurs in the commission of a felony, regardless of whether or not the death was intended. The Supreme Court has affirmed that an accomplice in a robbery that resulted in homicide can be convicted of murder, even an accomplice who had not been present at the murder (Enmund v. Florida). The Supreme Court has also upheld the death penalty for “a defendant [who participates] in a felony that results in [a] murder [that] is major and whose mental state is one of reckless indifference” (Tison v. Arizona, though the defendants’ sentences were later commuted to life in prison because they were under twenty at the time of the crime).
Likewise if someone threatens to kill you, beat you, rape you, or harm a member of your family unless you kill another person that is considered diminished capacity because you’re under degress… You might find yourself up for lesser chargers, or a plea arrangement, but what you won’t be tried for is murder.”
Whatever law school you attended *seriously* needs to reevaluate its standards. There is no legal concept of “under degress.” There is such a thing as under duress, which is different from diminished capacity. You are also confusing “charges” (or, as you say, “chargers”) with plea agreements. If you commit a felony under duress and are willing to plead guilty, you might be able to bargain your way down to a misdemeanor. Or the prosecutor might charge you with the felony and let you try to make the defense case in court; there is no obligation for the state to charge you with a lesser crime simply because you are claiming duress. The definition of “duress” varies by jurisdiction, but it is not as simple as “someone threatened me.” In the US Code, the jury cannot consider duress unless the defendant has proven that they never had a reasonable opportunity to escape harm (cf. US v. Ibarra-Pino). Some states do not permit or limit the use of duress as a defense in a murder trial. (See California cases People v. Anderson and People v. Maury).
And when a woman stands up, crying and weeping and says “they said it was a clump of cells, they said it wasn’t human, wasn’t a living being, my boyfriend said he’d kill me if I didn’t” I simply *don’t* see how any prosecutor will get 12 people to agree she planned a murder with criminal intent and criminal responsibility.
Leaving aside the whole “under degress” issue, in the hypothetical example under discussion, abortion is by definition murder. The prosecution doesn’t need to prove that she knew that abortion = murder to convict her of having an abortion, in the same way that they don’t need to prove that someone who takes a car at gunpoint knew it was carjacking. They only need to prove that the person took the car at gunpoint.
Wouldn’t she just be an accessory to murder? I would think that capital punishment would be reserved for whoever carried out the abortion, i.e. the abortionist.
She would be an accomplice, and although it is not common, accomplices have been executed for felony murder.
Anyhoo, the argument that what prosecutors did or didn’t do pre-Roe v. Wade is irrelevant. What prosecutors did in forty years ago is no indicator of what prosecutors will do tomorrow. What is a good indicator of what prosecutors will do tomorrow is what they’ve done recently, and what they’ve done recently is prosecute women for child abuse and murder under “chemical endangerment” and “fetal homicide” laws. Of course they would prosecute them under anti-abortion laws.
For those that do not know Jesus I understand. Punish them good.
And pro-lifers wonder why some people (hyperbolically) call them the Christian Taliban.
LY112!!! I found this article the other day, and I thought of you when I read it. Thought you might enjoy it.
http://liveactionnews.org/pretty-desperate-another-pathetic-attack-on-lila-rose/
And there should be legal consequences.
Maybe working at CPCs or something similar?
you eventually reach your limit when it comes to human stupidity.
I agree, Mary. Some of the kids I work with say and do some stupid things. Now that I think about it, so do some of the adults. (: I can’t always know for sure if the kids are playing with me, looking for attention, or crying for help. Any talk about or actual attempt of suicides, though, I believe, should be dealt with the utmost sensitivity. Suicide attempts, whether they are for attention or for real, are a sign of something really wrong. As sad as the truth may be, these folks are also providing job security for the ER doctor.
“I would have made her life so miserable she would have had to abort just to get some peace.”
When my adult son started a sexual relationship with his girlfriend I asked him was he prepared for a child. I asked if he knew whether his gf was ready to parent and what she would do if she became pregnant? Did he know her thoughts on abortion? My son said, “I wouldn’t let her have abortion.” In spite of how I raised my son, he still seems a bit confused about the lack of rights he would have if she does become pregnant.
I mailed him a list of clinics close to him that perform vasectomies.
Lol. Good idea! Maybe we could hold vasectomy fundraisers for some guys! And I guess to be fair we should hold fundraisers for some gals to have tubal ligations.
Hi Praxedes,
The thing is these are not real suicide attempts. The young woman took Tyelenol thinking it was harmless. This other woman was mad at her husband. People play around with drugs not realizing they can have very dire consequences. Absolutely they should get help, and did. They got a 48 hour commitment, much to their dismay. These folks provided the ER doctor job security. So did drunk drivers. We were pretty disgusted with them too, especially when their dead victim(s) was/were in the next room.
The thing is these are not real suicide attempts.
I realize this, Mary, but I also know that people will often vocalize/attempt suicide before they finally succeed. Whether she was looking for attention or not, her actions cried suicide attempt and I think this doctor’s comment was very insensitive, although he may have meant it to be helpful.
When I was first dating my ex-husband, his sister OD’d three times in one summer after a break-up. She ended up in a mental institute and the whole family ended up in counseling. I didn’t know much about the family at the time and in my mind she was just a spoiled brat. I am very embarrassed to admit that after the third time, out of frustration, I said to my ex, “Does she need me to take her to the top of the capitol building to show her how to succeed?”
It took me years to learn of the amount of abuse, mental illness, depression, drug/alcohol abuse and suicide in his family. I had zero right to say something so nasty to him about his sister. To say it to her would have been even worse.
Hi Prax,
I certainly see your point. I don’t really see the doctor as being insensitive, just fed up with stupidity and wasted lives. Much like he/we were fed up with the drunk drivers and the havoc they wreaked on other people’s lives. Yes they had drinking problems. Well then stay home and drink or get help.
We would see people treat OD-ing like it was a game, a way to manipulate someone. Whatever the reason, they would be commited so suicide attempts, real or not, were treated very seriously.
The most tragic case I saw was a 17y/o girl, very pretty, came in with a massive overdose. She went to ICU, then the psych unit where they thought she had shown progress and was discharged, of course with continued counselling. She came back in DOA. This time, she just made sure she wasn’t found in time. One of the situations where when someone is determined, nothing stops them.
I think some of it is just lost in translation. I don’t believe in heaven or hell, so I don’t think Sky Daddy is going to set everything straight once people die. I don’t believe there is a chance for vengeance or proper punishment in “the next life”-it’s get it here and now, and get your justice from who you can while you can, or not at all.
The notion of everything being taken care of for you by a greater power surely must be comforting. Sometimes I find myself wishing there was a hell just so certain people could go there.
I think the answer is: “it depends.” It depends on the how abortion was done. I think the abortion procedure should be made illegal and; therefore, the person who performed should be criminalized. For example, the abortionist is the criminal in a D&C while the mother is the criminal who purchases the (banned) RU486 to self-administer an abortion. Because the ability to self-administer abortions is now a more wide-spread possibility I think we need to consider criminalizing women who perform abortions on themselves. However, any law will have to ensure that would do not get victimized and rushed through the legal system everytime they have a miscarriage. If this happens, there will be a huge miscarriage of justice.
I believe changing people’s attitudes toward life and abortion is more critical than it is to get a law that outlawas abortion. If believing in a Sky Daddy can help cause people to think twice about having an abortion I think the Sky Daddy pushers (myself included) should pursue the promotion of Sky Daddy. For those individuals/women who will get an abortion and are adamant that Sky Daddy does not exist we need to clone some of more of our outspoken atheist commentators and post them on 24 hour watch outside of pharmacies to ensure that these biological police will be there to remind the abortion-prone-women that the fetus is a human baby (just in case they forgot)!!!
Tyler “I believe changing people’s attitudes toward life and abortion is more critical than it is to get a law that outlaws abortion”
There you go. I think you’d get 90% of Americans on your side if that’s your position.
Although the belief in Sky Daddy can reduce the number of abortions (especially by those deeply convinced that Sky Daddy exists) there are better and many other reasons for promoting and marketing Sky Daddy.
Hal, thanks for encouragement. However, I am “an all of the above” pro-lifer so I would never say that prolifers should stop pursuing a law restricting abortions. In addition to simply being just a law also has the added value of teaching society what is valuable.
I am appalled by this conversation. Woman who have abortions should NOT be charged with murder. I am extremely saddened any one thinks they should.
Rachel, whats the difference? Killing is Killing. Are you appalled at someone killing a one month old? you should be just as saddened at someone killing a baby in their mother’s womb. How about from this day forward we charge women who kill their babies with murder? what has happened in the past is over…we know women are hurting over what they have done. But WE CAN NOT LET this madness continue! enough is enough. Stop the killing today. women need to take responsibility for the choice they make when they have sex. BEFORE they involve another life.
Rachel, I generally agree with Carla’s point that any law will be a sufficient deterrent for a vast number of women, but there will be some women who will break the law nonetheless, and with the new ease to abort due to drugs like RU486, I think it is necessary to consider some kind of further penalties for women who choose to abort with these new medications so that there will be a further deterrent. Obviously, as with any crime there will be mitigating circumstances. These circumstances such as outside force, etc… but they should not be for rape or incest or life of the mother. The life of the mother exception is a given. I don’t think it needs to be written into the law – in fact, I think such an exception is more or less redundant since the life of the mother is already protected in law.
Carla had written, “It is about vengeance and punishment and what reads to me like hate. Ok. For those that do not know Jesus I understand. Punish them good.”
Lisa C. misunderstood and replied, “And pro-lifers wonder why some people (hyperbolically) call them the Christian Taliban.”
Carla was not expressing desire for vengeance on those who do not know Jesus. She was saying that she could understand their desire for vengeance.
I am post abortive. Do I regret what I did? nearly 30 years after the fact very much yes. Should I be charged? probably. but our legal system excludes the Mercy Jesus Christ offers a sinner like me. We are called to be merciful, to forgive, to lead others to Christ. I have endeavored to do so and through prayer know of 3 women who have been reconciled to him because of merciful treatment. hate the sin not the sinner is what we are told in Sacred Scripture. pray for you enemies (those caught up in sin). I leave with this story about an abortionist from Slovenia who kept having dreams of many children happily playing in heaven and they were supervised by a large towering man dressed as a priest. THis played over and over and finally the abortionist asked the man in the dream, who are you and who are these children? The man answered, “I am Thomas Acquinas and these are the children you aborted”. That abortionist quit doing abortions and now is doing what he can to save others.
Thank you for listening to the call of Jesus Christ and Our Blessed Mother
Tyler “I believe changing people’s attitudes toward life and abortion is more critical than it is to get a law that outlaws abortion”
There you go. I think you’d get 90% of Americans on your side if that’s your position.
by Hal on Feb 10, 2013 at 4:20 pm
Hal, if Americans start to love an respect little boy and little girl fetuses they will want to protect them from abortion. When this happens, chances are our culture will eventually move to outlaw
abortion. Is this ok with you?
About three quarters of women report coercion influencing their decision to kill their babies. A change in the law to prosecute the aborting women for murder would result in many clogged courtrooms, and a low percentage of actual convictions.
Sure. Yes. That sounds absolutely like a LOVELY idea. Not at all cruel. Not at all sexist, misogynist and controlling of women’s bodies Let’s hang women in public view for all to see. Let’s shame women and punish them, as much as possible, for making A LEGAL DECISION!
BTW, 70% of Americans don’t want Roe overturned. And WHY? Because 70% of Americans understand this is not your business but that of the pregnant woman.
That reminds me why I’m an atheist. I can’t stand despicable so-called Christians imposing their views on other peoples’ lives. I absolutely can’t. Not only are their views backward and ridiculous they actually make me sick, so cruel and inconsiderate their are.
Someone reminds me in what year, what century we are living in.
This seems about a half step away from killing women in the middle ages because they miscarried. How would you prove someone had an abortion, instead of a miscarriage?
“I am appalled by this conversation. Woman who have abortions should NOT be charged with murder. I am extremely saddened any one thinks they should. “
I’m appalled too, Abortion doctors should NOT be charged with murder. I am extremely saddened any one thinks they should. Nobody is forcing women to walk in his office, where is the compassion, the love, How is putting an Abortion doc in jail going to solve anything.
“but our legal system excludes the Mercy Jesus Christ offers a sinner like me.”
No it doesn’t, even in it’s current form.
“We are called to be merciful, to forgive, to lead others to Christ….hate the sin not the sinner is what we are told in Sacred Scripture. pray for you enemies (those caught up in sin)”
So our justice system is about nothing more than personal hatred for the person being prosecuted? We aren’t prosecuting the sin (crime)? Do any other sinners deserve mercy that is free of civil justice or only women who participate in abortions?
A collection of 200 fetal cells is not a baby or a human being so all your arguments about charging the parents or doctor with murder is moot.
All your arguments about how sacred life is are moot also. A collection of 200 leaves is also a collection of something that is living. So does that mean when people in Iowa rake leaves they are stepping on living things and therefore are murders?
A fetus is not a human being. Look up the law.
I’m glad you have web sites like these you need an outlet for your myopia.
“A fetus is not a human being. Look up the law.”
A fetus is a human being. Look up the science.
A collection of 200 fetal cells is not a baby or a human being so all your arguments about charging the parents or doctor with murder is moot.
Wow! I felt 200 of my brain cells saying, What’s the use”? and commit hari-kiri. Do you know how young an embryo has to be to have only 200 cells? That’s only a blink of an eye in our early life.
Then you go on to call dead leaves living things, and compare them to young humans. You people are so confused.
A collection of 200 fetal cells is not a baby or a human being
That’s correct. But an embryo is not a mere collection of fetal cells. It’s a complete human organism in its early stages of development. Unlike a collection of cells, an organism is capable of maturing, growth, integrated bodily function, and repair of injuries. So the arguments presented on this thread are not moot.
A fetus is not a human being. Look up the law.
Some laws are unjust. I prefer using an embryology textbook:
(see The Developing Human by Moore and Persaud).
http://goo.gl/qv8pP
Josey wrote, “A fetus is not a human being.”
It may or may not be; it’s an organism at an early stage of development. I’d have to check what kind of animals (only mammals?) develop into fetuses, but certainly plants don’t.
A human fetus is a human being, but a lion fetus is not.
A human adult is a human being, but a lion adult is not.
We would see people treat OD-ing like it was a game, a way to manipulate someone.
Hi Mary, I hope you find yourself back to this thread because I wanted to share something I read. I started reading a book yesterday called History of a Suicide – My Sister’s Unfinished Life by Jill Bialosky about a 21 year old woman who takes her life. I’m not quite finished but it is a terribly sad true story and I wanted to relay a part that relates to what we were discussing on this thread the other day.
A chapter reads in part, Thirty thousand Americans kill themselves every year, and nearly half a million make a suicide attempt medically serious enough to require emergency-room treatment. Psychiatrist Andrew Slaby asserts that “suicide attempts are really failed suicides.” A suicide attempt remains the single best predictor of suicide and, of course, must never be ignored as simply attention-seeking behavior. After an attempt, or even when no attempt has been made but someone is suicidal, he or she should be watch twenty-four hours a day until it is certain the impulse has passed.
Because the suicidal person, described by some as a ticking time bomb, resides in a delicate state, one event, like a breakup with a boyfriend, a humiliating event at school, or even a DWI, can function as a catalyst for a suicide.
According to statistics, about a third of people who attempt suicide will repeat the attempt within one year and about ten percent of those who threaten or attempt suicide eventually succeed in carrying out the act. It is remarkable how many failed suicides precede an actual suicide.
When I first started reading this book, I wondered if maybe there wasn’t an abortion in this young woman’s background and sure enough about half way through the book, the author tells of when her sister had an abortion at age 17. Later notes are found that were written by this teen that pointed to her devastation over her abortion saying. I wish I had my baby back. I’ve lost my dreams. I would love to have someone to love and to have someone depend on me. I want my baby! I could teach it and love it and turn it into all the things I’m not but wish I were.
In order to prosecute a woman for murder, they would have to prove two elements: scienter, and mens rea. If the woman is coerced, she lacks the intent, or mens rea. If she has been deceived in any way (“it’s just a blob of tissue”), then she lacks knowledge, or scienter. Unless a prosecutor can prove both, he won’t get a conviction. In addition, prosecutors have the duty to make efficient use of his resources. Prosecuting an abortionist who can do hundreds or thousands of abortions in his career is much more efficient than prosecuting a woman, who might at most have a couple dozen abortions in her lifetime (though most won’t). Without abortionists, there would be few abortions. In fact, it is really the responsibility of the medical profession to remove these people’s licenses and censure them so that they are stopped.
The reason people view abortion differently from other murders is because the mother cannot SEE the baby. It DOES make a difference. A mother can easily be deceived about what she is carrying, especially with the prevalence of the teaching of evolution, and the idea that the development of the baby “recapitulates” the development of the species. It is also why seeing ultrasound is so effective with most women. If they don’t KNOW what they are carrying because they have been brought up on lies, they lack scienter.
In what way would prosecuting the people involved in abortion result in justice for the dead unborn baby? The dead don’t profit from justice in this life.
The reason for putting abortionists in prison is because they cannot commit abortion there. The purpose of the law MUST be deterrence. Occasionally a mother would be prosecuted, in the past, if she refused to reveal the identity of the abortionist. That might should a certain amount of mens rea. And yes, the state of mind of a person who was coerced is taken into account in a prosecution, at the very least in the sentencing portion of the proceedings. I have talked to a couple thousand women about their abortions, or their seeking abortion, and out of all those women, I found ONE that I felt had both scienter and mens rea. But knowing there is a possibility, however remote, of being prosecuted, will give a woman who is being coerced the grounds for saying, “I won’t do it; it is illegal.” The law is a teacher as well as the other roles it fills. Unless abortion is illegal, women are not being taught that abortion is wrong and harmful. Too many women are suffering the medical consequences because the media are telling us that legal = safe. Nobody is suggesting prosecuting women as long as abortion is legal.
As for pill abortions, the solution there is to make it illegal to MANUFACTURE and SELL any drug that has abortifacient properties. Then punish the leadership of pharmaceutical companies if they disobey.