Planned Parenthood’s one degree of separation from Gosnell’s 1972 “Mother’s Day Massacre”
UPDATE 4/22, 12:40p: WNET has notified me that “the October 1972 program you are interested in is very old and we do not have any records for it.” I was given the name of another lead, which I’ll pursue.
4/16, 6:31p: In 1972, International Planned Parenthood Federation was one of two groups partnering with the country of Bangladesh to bring Dr. Harvey Karman (pictured right) and a small team of “abortion experts,” which included two IPPF doctors, to the newly formed country to commit abortions and train native doctors and paramedics how to commit them.
Abortion was Karman’s “consuming passion,” according to Salon, which acknowledged Karman wasn’t really any sort of doctor whatsoever but had simply “added a Ph.D. to his name, though his degree came from a dubious Swiss diploma mill.”
Karman was, in fact, a convicted felon, having served 2-1/2 years in prison – until pardoned by then Gov. Jerry Brown – for killing a mother in 1955 while attempting to illegally abort her in a hotel room with a nutcracker.
The Bangladesh incident was over 40 years ago, less than one year before the Supreme Court would make abortion legal throughout the U.S.
But even then the mainstream media was in the tank for abortion. You would never know by the Los Angeles Times’ glowing April 5, 1972, report that Karman’s experimental use on Bangladeshi rape victims of his new late-term abortion contraption, called the “super coil,” was a disaster:
Essentially, the Karman method, which has gained wide acceptance internationally, permits abortions of pregnancies up to the seventh month – or later – without the use of either anesthetics or standard metal surgical instruments….
In advanced pregnancies up to the seventh month, Karman inserts one or more small, equally simplified plastic coils into the uterus. When exposed to moisture, the coils expand, inducing a miscarriage within 10-20 hours….
That was the spin. Here’s what the super coil actually was, explained in the grand jury report on Kermit Gosnell, who I’ll get to in a minute, taken from testimony by Dr. Randy Hutchins, who once worked for Gosnell:
[T]here was a device that he and a psychologist [Karman] were working on that was supposed to be plastic – basically plastic razors that were formed into a ball. All right. They were coated into a gel, so that they would remain closed. These would be inserted into the woman’s uterus. And after several hours of body temperature, it would then – the gel would melt and these 97 things would spring open, supposedly cutting up the fetus, and the fetus would be expelled.
The problem was that they never tested it. They didn’t test it on any animals. They never did any – any – any other human trials. This was not something that was sanctioned by the FDA. This was just something that he decided – he and this guy decided they were going to use on these women.
What women? On Mother’s Day 1972 Karman followed up his Bangladesh experiment in America, with the help of Kermit Gosnell (pictured right). From Philly.com (also quoted in the grand jury report):
On Mother’s Day weekend in 1972, Karman, other activists, and 15 women in their second trimester of pregnancy boarded a bus in Chicago and headed for Philadelphia, where Gosnell had agreed to give them super-coil abortions at his clinic, then at 133 S. 36th St. The women, who were poor, had been unable to get abortions in Chicago or New York.
Gosnell’s super-coil abortions – filmed and later shown on a New York City educational-TV program, thanks to Karman – turned out badly.
The federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Philadelphia Department of Public Health subsequently did an investigation that detailed serious complications suffered by nine of the 15 women, including one who needed a hysterectomy.
The complications included a punctured uterus, hemorrhage, infections, and retained fetal remains.
The CDC researchers recommended strict controls on any future testing of the device – the beginning of “increasing regulations on the development of reproductive technologies,” Tunc wrote.
Karman spent two years in court battles in Philadelphia. He was convicted of practicing medicine without a license, but a Common Pleas Court judge overturned the conviction in 1974, saying then-District Attorney Arlen Specter had failed to show which women Karman had treated.
Gosnell – who testified that Karman had done an “innocuous” part of the procedures but not fetal extractions – was not charged with anything.
Also read this October 12, 1972, Gettysburg Times account. I contacted WNET, the public television station in New York that filmed what came to be known as the Mother’s Day Massacre. I’d love to see that archived program. I will certainly alert readers if I get a response.
Bottom line: Planned Parenthood was perfectly willing to treat impoverished women of color as guinea pigs for an experimental late-term abortion gadget, no different than Kermit Gosnell at the time. (All of Gosnell’s super-coil patients were black and poor.)
I wrote in my title that Planned Parenthood was separated by one degree from Gosnell.
Actually, not.
[HT: Ryan Bomberger at LifeNews.com]
Well not much has changed. We’ve gone from this method knitting needles coat hangers and Lysol douches to a sharp curette the tenaculun the heavy suction machine and RU486. As the Virginia Slim pack says “You’ve come a long way baby!” Huh!
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Sorry tenaculum..above post
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Keeping abortion safe and legal…yessiree bob!
Ugh! It’s so horrific. Puts the sad in sadistic.
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And it’s the same. Rich and wealthy seeking an abortion? Lindsey Lohan Madonna Cher Brittany Spears didn’t go to a scuzzy dirty clinic. They all went to a cozy hospital or private doctors office. Poor? Get in the waiting room with the rest of the peasants!!
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I’m seriously horrified by this. How in the freaking world did he end up practicing for decades?
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Nothing has changed. Rich celebrities go to a clean hospital or a private doctor. Poor? Get in the waiting room with the rest of the peasantry!
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Jack. me too.
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Sorry i posted the same thing twice because my comment was awaiting moderation. and imagine that a cracked nut trying to abort a woman with a nutcracker!
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Denise that’s sad and no I wouldn’t be delighted at a woman impregnated by rape but PP isn’t reporting rape. Do you remember the 2 teen or pre teen girls repeatedly raped and impregnated by their father? He just kept taking them to the abortion clinic where each of the girls were given abortions and sent home to be raped by dad all over again. Nobody ever reported it.
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The Gettysburg Times article says that the Pennsylvania law at that time prohibited illegal abortions but did not define illegal. What kind of idiot would write a law that circular?
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Also, the article says 18 women and the blog post says 15. Am I missing something or is there an error?
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@ Heather: I’ve said before that failure to report makes a person an accomplice. Someone in this position should be prosecuted.
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“I also know that most of you believe that a girl or woman who has been attacked by 20 to 30 men should not be horrified at the prospect of an expanded waistline and childbirth resulting from an attack but should be able to look forward to having a baby after being gang-raped. I know some of you would be utterly delighted to find yourselves pregnant as a result of a vicious attack.”
So based on this, you apparently know absolutely nothing about why people oppose abortion in cases of rape.
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“@ Heather: I’ve said before that failure to report makes a person an accomplice. Someone in this position should be prosecuted.”
Yup. Unless they are in fear for their own life (and even then, if someone else is being raped/assaulted and you feel threatened too, the best thing you can do is get some help).
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Gosnell seems to harbor quite a lot of hostility toward pregnant women. He certainly wasn’t content merely to take their money and kill their children. I wonder if more than two pregnant females have died at his hands.
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Who clicked like on that piece of compost? Seriously, who? 7:26 is hands down, absolutely, positively the most offensive post by this commenter that I’ve ever read. If it were another website, I’d have hit the Flag button so hard my keyboard would wince.
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“Who clicked like on that piece of compost? Seriously, who? 7:26 is hands down, absolutely, positively the most offensive post by this commenter that I’ve ever read. If it were another website, I’d have hit the Flag button so hard my keyboard would wince. ”
Eh, she did the “some of you would be delighted to be pregnant after rape” thing because Jespren once told her that she would personally want to be impregnated by a rape. So now she adds a disclaimer to her many, many posts about pregnancy from rape.
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OK, it seems every other source says 15, so I’m guessing the 18 in the Gettysburg Times is a typo.
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If this were my blog, I would ban her. Period.
*Edit: That was in response to Jack…Obviously it’s not my blog, so I’m not saying that the moderators here should do anything but what they’re doing :-).
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Well if it were MY blog I would allow cussing. No holds barred. Ha.
Honestly Denise doesn’t bother me, except when she goes on about how some people enjoy incest. Then I’m like “please stop. now.”
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“Well if it were MY blog I would allow cussing. No holds barred. Ha.”
Absolutely! I am from Jersey :-) Cussing yes. Denise no.
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Poor Denise lol. Hey Denise, you should really take notes about which types of comments strongly offend people, and try to tone down on them.
” Absolutely! I am from Jersey Cussing yes. Denise no.”
Lol, I swear a lot on Twitter on the rare times I’m on there. I feel awkward though because Jill follows me, it’s like swearing in front of a pastor or something. Lucky she follows like ten thousand people so I don’t think she’s noticed. :D
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“Hey Denise, you should really take notes about which types of comments strongly offend people, and try to tone down on them.” Oh please…she knows perfectly well.
“I feel awkward though because Jill follows me, it’s like swearing in front of a pastor or something.”
haha I know. I often feel like a fraud here b/c I see that people get genuinely offended by swearing (and actually pay attention to the “warning – profanity” tags). I do moderate myself in public and at work and obviously around kids, but left to my own devices….like a truck driving sailor. Glad to know I’m not alone, lol.
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I think you are being a little hard on Gosnell. He was a drop in the bucket compared to the mega abortuaries that Planned Parenthood runs.
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Jack, lol. You’re on my radar now… :)
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Oh no! I’ll watch my mouth (keyboard?) ma’am. :D
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I curse around people who curse. I have totally stopped G dam*it years ago. Changed it to gosh. And I cant give anyone a flag on my phone so it wasn’t me.
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I’m bad though but I know where i can do it. My pastor got a little creative in front of the abortion clinic though. We always get the finger and he goes “yeah that’s what got you here in the first place .” I couldn’t resist lol
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So sue me I’m human.
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Its hip to be pro life. We have a lot of funny people in our group. I love rattling up those pro death folks. One guy backed his car up from a drive through fast food place ranting “I’m calling the cops on you.” I went “Would you like to borrow mine?” And I held it out.
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Yet another guy pulled up as I was in the burbs trotting across the parking lot with a graphic abortion sign. He said “Excuse me but I don’t like you being here.” I went “Oh I’m sorry but you must have me confused with someone who gives a dam*!” I kept going.
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Anyway back on a serious note why are liberals always calling pro life folks misogynists. Gonsell is the ultimate woman hater. And this includes killing little baby women in the womb. I don’t understand why women think these killers are heroes.
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I remember the footage of post abortive mother and attorney Gloria Allred at George Tillers funeral saying he was a hero for defending women’s rights and blah blah blah. Gee that’s odd. Many of the women who obtained abortions at Tillers clinic said he was a mean and nasty creep.
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Since this whole controversy started with Gosnell’s trial coverage, I have to ask…
What kind of life did Kermit have that led him to this point?
And for crying out loud, these women that went to him: Did you not notice in the least that something was a tiny bit wrong? Ok, so you’re pro-choice. I get that. But dude, don’t blood-stained recliners, stairs, and filthy procedure tables mean anything to you? When you see a flea-bag cat vomiting on the stairs on your way to terminating your pregnancy, was there nothing to convince you that this was not your happy, healthy, “legal procedure” clinic?
Really? Really???
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Carder I agree. If I was going to have any type of surgery and walked into that type of filth I wouldn’t /couldn’t do it!
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I’m tellin ya we’ve backfired with legal abortion. Just moved the back ally to the front. I guess women are just that desperate to have it done.
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There is a book out called The Choices We Made. Its a book about women who aborted both legally and illegally. The stories from then are no different than what we have today. Journalist Linda Ellerbee waited in a hotel in a bathrobe for her abortionist to show up. She paid the abortionist and she inserted a poisonous douche into her. The abortion complete Linda explained she didn’t believe that life began in the womb until the 6th month. Linda had a double mastectomy because she got breast cancer. Nah no abortion breast cancer link.
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Actress Whoopi Goldberg claims she self aborted with a coat hanger in central park at age 14. I call BS! How in the world would you pull that off and walk home? Goldberg then went on to have 7 more legal abortions. Hmmm sounds to me like someone has been using the abortion clinic as birth control.
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Susanne Sommers…abortion and breast cancer.
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Back then these women feared infection damage to their organs being sexually assaulted and death. HEY look at we’ve got now! The same thing!
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“I guess women are just that desperate to have it done.” – yes, exactly. So let’s get it into hospitals and encourage and support the best medical people to conduct abortions.
Claims of a causal link between abortion and breast cancer have been fundamentally refuted.
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One more Margot Kidder. Gave herself a Lysol abortion. Suffered emotionally as she was found cowering in a neighbors woodpile.
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You’ve got the case notes then have you Heather? Used your medical qualifications to interpret them? Does it include the part about her suffering bipolar disorder?
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Oh but Rita Mareno expressed regrets. Marlon Brando set up an appointment and Rita did not want to do it. However Brando insisted. When the baby didn’t die immediately Brando demanded his $$$ back. Later down the road Brando pleaded with Rita “Please have sex with me. Please.” Moreno admitted an unexplainable attraction to Brando but it was wrecked after the abortion. How could it not be? She still counts her dead baby as her child. She said “Biggest mistake of my life.” I felt so bad for her.
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“I guess women are just that desperate to have it done.” – yes, exactly. So let’s get it into hospitals and encourage and support the best medical people to conduct abortions.
‘Reality’, a hospital is a place where people go for healing and saving life; not for killing or hiring killers. Let’s keep it that way.
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Not every hospital procedure is purely for healing or saving life.
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“Not every hospital procedure is purely for healing or saving life”
What’s your general philosophy on the medical profession Reality?
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Generally – that’s generally – their focus should be on obtaining the best quality of life for the person seeking their professional services.
I had a doctor who very nearly caused my death when he thought he was improving my quality of life. oops! I still used him until I moved away though. Actually, another one did much the same thing when I was about 12 or 13! One day death will succeed ;-)
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“Generally – that’s generally – their focus should be on obtaining the best quality of life for the person seeking their professional services.”
Yeah… I get that, and I generally agree. But obviously we diverge when it comes to pregnant women. You don’t even consider the quality of life of the unborn. :( What about a newborn or prematurely born infant’s quality of life?
” I had a doctor who very nearly caused my death when he thought he was improving my quality of life. oops! I still used him until I moved away though. Actually, another one did much the same thing when I was about 12 or 13! One day death will succeed ”
How did you almost die when you were 12?? When I was 8 I had a ruptured spleen, no fun at all.
Edit: Please bear with me on my insomniac 3am postings lol.
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Well Jack, back in the olden days before color was invented, I undertook a series of innoculations twice weekly to try to overcome allergies. One day the doctor accidently gave me ten times the dose he was supposed to. I lasted about 20 minutes before the reaction nearly took me out. They basically had to support me until the remedial shot took effect.
A ruptured spleen has gotta hurt, big time! How’d that happen?
I’m off in about 20 minutes.
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“before color was invented” lol. That doesn’t sound fun, being overdosed like that. My son has terrible asthma from allergies, but he just takes the inhalers and such. We haven’t tried the shots, I’m nervous to start him on that stuff when he’s so young. I’ll have to have them start him on them soon though, he doesn’t seem to be improving. My spleen ruptured because my mom accidentally knocked me down the stairs. Well she hit me on purpose but I don’t think she meant to knock me down. I don’t remember it clearly at all.
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Heck, asthma is the modern day plague. Some say it’s because our environment is too clean. Just not enough good old fashioned dirt around the place :-)
I know nothing about ruptured spleens. What’s the healing time?
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Yeah, I have heard that about asthma, that it’s some type of autoimmune response to everything being clean all the time. I really wish it were curable. Some kids grow out of it though so I am hoping mine does.
I think it took like a month or so to recover, I don’t really remember though. It’s annoying though because the spleen is part of the immune system, if it’s gone it leaves you prone to infections. And a nasty looking scar lol.
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is it just me, or does it sound like these guys enjoy doing abortions and getting a kick out of it? PP is absolutely one of the most shady organizations out there- obviously not built on genuine professionalism…. or science
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Reality what you had was an incompetent doctor. Mistakes happen and that’s why medical professionals and hospitals have malpractice insurance. Doctors are there to help and cure. I know an obgyn who works at the Cleveland Clinic. Last time I saw Howie he was on his way to deliver a baby. I asked ” You don’t perform abortions do you?” He shook his head with a bit of disgust and relplied “Why would I do that?” I patted his shoulder and went “Good just checking .”
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But sadly reality you’re correct on one thing. The hospital right up the street from me kills babies in the womb. I’ve had all 4 of my kids there. I had no idea until someone told me “Metro? Oh yeah they’ve been killing babies for 35 years. That’s the hospital that assigned me the pro choice doctor one day and after she proudly told me she performed abortions I told the front desk “Do not put me with her anymore .” My wishes were respected .
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“is it just me, or does it sound like these guys enjoy doing abortions and getting a kick out of it?”
I’ve read more than one interview with abortionists that display a very narcissistic personality. Paraphrased, many hold an attitude of, “I am so great I can save you from your unwanted condition, you poor disgusting pregnant woman.”
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Totally agree Eric.
They treat with such contempt those they “trust” and “care about.”
Yeah. They love women and only want to help.
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Reality – “Generally – that’s generally – their focus should be on obtaining the best quality of life for the person seeking their professional services.”
That’s pretty vauge. So, can someone just go to the hospital to seek their professional services to terminate someone else’s life, because they consider that the other person being dead would improve their quality of life?
What about conjoined twins (adults). Should it be legal for one of them to have a doctor kill his twin brother because that would improve his own quality of life?
My twin brothers were almost conjoined.
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@ Julia: During the Bangladesh War, some girls and women were raped by as many as 20 to 30 men during a single crime. That is, 20 to 30 men forced themselves on the girl or woman, one right after the other right after the other right after the other. This is a bodily abuse that I find hard to even comprehend. It amounts to a form of torture.
Can you at least understand why some of these girls and women, finding themselves pregnant after suffering not just gang-rape but mass-rape, felt psychologically unable to carry to term and give birth?
Can you at least understand why they wanted the pregnancy immediately terminated?
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@ Denise. Yes I can understand why they don’t want to be pregnant. I can also understand why she would want to go back the next day and shoot all of them. Though I understand both feelings, that doesn’t make either killing her innocent child or shooting those guilty men right.
The answer to one incredible act of violence and torture on one innocent person, is not for that person to do another incredible act of violence on another innocent person (her child).
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@ Julia: This is what separates me from those who want an outright legal ban on abortion.
Like you, I can say to a girl or woman who was mass-raped by 30 men, “You’re a hero for your decision to carry this pregnancy to term and give birth.”
Unlike you, I just can’t say, “It is legally mandatory for you to carry the pregnancy from the mass rape and torture to term and give birth.”
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She’s so pro-choice.
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@ ninek: Can you imagine — even IMAGINE — what some of the women in Bangladesh went through during that war? As I pointed out, sometimes 20 or 30 men in a row attacked a single victim. This wasn’t just gang rape. It was MASS rape. It was the worst sort of TORTURE.
Can you blame such girls and women for being unable to carry to term pregnancies conceived under circumstances of torture?
I can’t. I can see telling a girl or woman how much I admire her for being willing to carry for the full 9 months after suffering such horror. But if she can’t, if she has to end it NOW, I couldn’t block her.
As far as whose “fault” it is, it is the rapist’s.
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Thats no fun Jack. I believe they are conducting research into spleen transplants. Hopefully one day they’ll be available.
“Reality what you had was an incompetent doctor.” – I have to disagree. Both doctors had very good reputations and I am not aware of people talking about them making mistakes. Doctors are human, they make mistakes. I believe both would have learnt from their mistakes.
“She’s so pro-choice.” – I’d say ‘somewhat’ pro-choice. The extent to which pro-choicers are pro-choice varies. Just like the extent to which anti-choicers are anti-choice varies.
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@ Denise
But it isn’t just a “pregnancy” it is a child, her child, an innocent child, who is just as much a victim as the mother is. The death penalty shouldn’t be for innocent people.
Is a person conceived in rape not a real person? What about when the baby is born and the mother realizes that it looks exactly like the rapist – can she kill the baby now or dump by the side of the road? What if there is no one/no organization to take care of her child until a couple months? Should she be able to kill that child because otherwise she is being forced to raise a child?
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Emotions are quite powerful, and a woman who suffers a brutal attack is quite understandably distressed. We aren’t asking for abortion to be illegal because we like to pat ladies on the back who endure trying circumstances. We are asking abortion to end because of what Julia reminds us: there’s an innocent child involved.
Also, the horror of what the women went through was NOT undone by the harm and mulitation they endured at the hands of Gosnell and Karman and their grisly ‘super coils.’ How about YOU imagine THAT. It makes my stomach turn. Those poor women needed a safe haven, not the disgusting and brutal violence that Gosnell and Karman ADDED to their distress. How can all of you abortion advocates NOT SEE the tiny, innocent child who is powerless in all this? Abortion adds another victim, another casualty, to an already terrible situation. How can you keep turning a blind eye to this little human being? It’s not a miniature criminal, it’s a BABY.
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Having been the victim of an assault, I can say from experience, not imagination, that the last thing I’d want after an assault is to be on a cold table, undressed, and drugged, with some ghoul looming over me to kill an innocent child. What I wanted, was to feel safe again. I highly doubt that Gosnell or Karman would have made me safe. Bucket of duh.
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@ ninek: The human embryo or fetus is not in an artificial uterus (unfortunately). If it were, then cultivating it to term would pose no moral dilemma. The human embryo or fetus is inside the womb of a human female. In the cases we’re discussing, this is a SHATTERED, TORTURED human female. She may not be psychologically able to allow her body to CARRY and get a big belly as a result of the torture. It is unfortunate that the embryo or fetus dies if the human female is unable to carry but that is currently what happens.
I hope an artificial womb will be developed. Then we wouldn’t have to deal with the emotions of a human female who cannot stand to have her body filled with a result of mass rape.
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It’s not “the result.” He or she is a tiny human child.
Injured women need refuge, not some ghoul and his coil of razors. Those poor women did not deserve to be assaulted and injured A SECOND TIME, in such a gruesome and bloody manner. Gosnell IS AS GUILTY as the rapists. And he should sit in jail for the rest of his life.
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Reality your doctor gave you 10x a dose of something and you almost died. That’s called incompetent.
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Reality you call Margot Kidder bipolar. I say she suffers from PAS. Do you have any case notes to prove me wrong?
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Is that how it’s going to work now is it Heather? Make any old claim we feel like and then challenge others to disprove it? That’s not what I’ve observed here.
You claimed Margot Kidder had an episode because she had an abortion. I asked you to provide evidence for that. You haven’t. Can you?
When I did a quick search, the references were to bipolar disorder.
If we calling people incompetent because they made a mistake then we are all incompetent, at everything. Each and every one of us.
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@ Ninek: What if a shattered woman, mass raped, tells you she CANNOT carry to term?
That she CANNOT stand to have her body swell with the continuous reminder of the horror she suffered?
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Great posts ninek! Well put. And I agree with ninek as well as the others. It sounds like Gosnell was just delighted to kill babies and the women of color were just guinea pigs. I guess if you’re black poor or both you matter the absolute least. Dr Mengela ring a bell? Eh gotta check my sp on that. It’s the same thing! History repeats. AND just like rape is an act of power and control it sounds like abortion is too. Absolute power over women and heck if you die then to heck with you. reality you think abortionists are competent so I will leave it there. Couldn’t help but notice you glossed over the Rita Mareno post. Did you hear what she said? “Biggest mistake of my life.” And Brando FORCED her into abortion. BUT you guys love to say pro lifers want to FORCE a woman to give birth. So forced abortion is okay with you then?
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That is my absolute take on Kidder …sorry. Bipolar is so overused here by some people. Everyone who is sad or having some trouble tell me they are bipolar. I definitely know some people who use the label and it’s not so. Like an alcoholic woman I used to know. Shed get drunk and do crazy things and blame it all on being bipolar. Shed also had 8 abortions..my ex got her pregnant with the last aborted baby. She had to have her uterus removed due to extensive damages to her uterus from multiple abortions. I told her one day “Honey you’re not bipolar you’re an alcoholic .” She joined AA. Odd but no more bipolar behavior noted with sobriety.
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Denise, answer the question posed to you first. What if the woman has the baby after rape and realizes the baby looks just like her rapist. Should she be allowed to kill the baby then? What if this injured, tortured woman CANNOT BEAR to look at the baby who looks like her attacker?
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If you’ve never read “Victims and Victors” Denise then do so. It has testimonies of women who aborted after rape and those who didn’t. The women who aborted reporting feeling ever MORE violated. Abortion compounds rape…it doesn’t heal it. You think you’re so compassionate for this woman who cannot bear pregnancy after rape but in actuality you’re hurting her more.
What women pregnant from rape need is love and support and healing and safety. Not abortion. The CHILD that you are so quick to demean and dehumanize by calling him/her merely “embryo” or “fetus” is a living human being. Just as human as you and me Denise. If I found out tomorrow that your dad had been a rapist I don’t think that takes away any of your worth as a human being…but you are so quick to snatch that worth away from other human beings just because they were conceived in rape.
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Reraility sez: “Claims of a causal link between abortion and breast cancer have been fundamentally refuted.”
In the 1980s, a connection was suspected and investigated. Many thought the evidence was fairly strong. The liberals in medicine and epidemiology should have done the right thing right then. But no. We liberals have had the idea for a long time of controlling who does and who does not have babies. Our one belief is that the ‘good’ people don’t reproduce enough, and the ‘lousy’ people breed like rabbits, and we have sought for decades ways to control those lousy poor people – why? Because they will bother us with their petty crime, and take dollars from us we are morally obligated to donate to bail out their pitiful lives. The second belief, built off the first, is that these irresponsible over-breeders are going to drive the environment to collapse.
This idea is well over 100 years old.
Abortion fits right in. In the 1960s, Time magazine ran a story about how Bangledesh was having such a population boom that it would surely lead to a population crash. This is why we educated Western liberals were there – to keep those darkies from over-breeding and ruining our world.
None of these catastrophes has occurred as predicted. We educated liberals simply are making our own apocalyptic scenarios.
But we educated liberals cannot give up on being “right.” So we lie and distort truth.
ACOG and NCI have gotten political versus epidemiological. NCI declared in the 2002 ABC review NOT that this hypothesis is “fundamentally refuted,” but when they looked at the data, they did not see clear evidence supporting the idea.
Their analysis was flawed, and has been autopsied by a few people, leadingly Joel Brind.
Even in the recent few years, I have downloaded a dozen studies – all from outside USA – showing or having data fitting the ABC hypothesis.
A study just came out a couple months ago noting rising breast cancer among younger women. Nowhere in the official medical discussion did anyone suggest that maybe closing the book on the ABC idea was premature.
Seven years ago, it was a lead story, well-publicized, in one of the major news magazines – I tihnk Newsweek - that breat cancer was having an amazing rise across the world – these are the cases from us exporting abortion to all of these nations of ‘darkies’ we don’t want breeding like rabbits and ruining our white world.
At that time, the official liberal media line was that we don’t knoow where all of this breast cancer is coming from, but ABS was not mentioned.
We liberals have a taboo against believing that, and we are sworn to respond with ad hominem at anyone who suggests that.
If I get time later, I will post these recent ABC studies.
The US and Euro medical journals can avoid this, and must due to holding politics before scientific evidence, but they cannot suppress genuine data coming out of Turkey, Iran, Pakistan, China, etc.
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oh- here is how I find these ABC studies. I go to “medline,” a medical literature search engine. This is what doctors mostly look to for “research” on medical topics – they don’t go to webmd.
Then, I enter searches like ‘breast cancer prediction’ or ‘breast cancer epidemiology.’ I scan what articles I can get hold of – some are available and a lot are not.
For those that are not, you can enter the article title in ‘google scholar.’ It will come up. Just one listing. But Google Scholar has a choice for that listing to show “all 5 choices” or all 10 choices.” To the right, you may often see that one of the 5, or 10, webpage listings has that article posted as a pdf you can download with out paying. The medical journal may require pmt, but th eauthor or the school may have it posted without requiring a pmt.
So, I do searches like that, and browse studies presenting new breast cancer epidemiology, and look to see if they include abortion as a predictor.
US studies IGNORE this, while many other countries properly include abortion.
In the future, we will all look back and realize yet another avenue where politics trumped human rights, science, etc. The ABC signal cannot be avoided forever.
How we have sustained it thus far is Reality and other progressives are fed talking points, exactly like thrown down here.
Reality, if you really earnestly are concerned about whether abortion leads to breast cancer, your ears ought to perk up upon me saying two things: 1 NCI study has been seriously criticized, and 2 I claim that I have seen many studies with the consistent signal.
You should then spent some private time wondering whether you are advocating something that truly does contribute to breast cancer. That would be integrity.
As it is, you are regurgitating a canned response.
I know. I regurgitated canned responses I heard from fellow democrats for years and years. I increasingly saw how we are hypocritical half the time, and I began to “question authority”, to go decide what would convince me one way or the other, and I started reading and thinking for myself.
That is how I became pro-life, a decade before I became a Christian. So, for ten years, I was a secular-humanist pro-lifer.
I doubt you have read the NCI report. Go get it as ground zero, and start reading for yourself. Otherwise, you are now informed that you are being used as a tool by the liberal’s favorite bad-guy, Big Business – here, the medical establishment and Planned Parenthood.
Just like those evil oil companies and those evil banks, the medical establishment and PP have lobbyists, propaganda machines, etc.
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Sydney M says:
April 18, 2013 at 9:17 am
Denise, answer the question posed to you first. What if the woman has the baby after rape and realizes the baby looks just like her rapist. Should she be allowed to kill the baby then? What if this injured, tortured woman CANNOT BEAR to look at the baby who looks like her attacker?
(Denise) As I’ve said before — in connection with infants born alive during abortion — once the formerly pregnant woman and the baby have parted company, once the baby is outside her body, she has no say. He or she is out of her body.
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Yes the last dem..ty for the information. i also used to believe the dems on things like global warming supported abortion for population control and thought better to be aborted then to be unwanted and end up another welfare statistic or abused. Supported homosexuality ..used to say let them be happy. However God opened my eyes to truth. Slowly I began to worry less about my popularity with people and went from being a liberal to a conservative.
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Denise, whether the baby is in her body or out of her body should make no difference. Your argument is that the woman is under stress from having a child of her rapist’s. So if the baby causes her stress before birth you argue she should be able to kill him/her. Why not after birth? Your argument isn’t for bodily autonomy because then wouldn’t ALL abortions be morally justified? Your argument is for emotional distress of the mother. What if that emotional distress continues after birth? Why are you such a meanie to make a raped woman feel emotional distress looking at her rapist’s baby after birth? I mean, I don’t support infanticide but according to your argument..it would be morally permissible in this instance, correct? Since you argue that the life of the child is of no consequence if the mother has been raped and is under distress.
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Sydney M says:
April 18, 2013 at 11:52 am
Denise, whether the baby is in her body or out of her body should make no difference.>>
(Denise) It makes a great deal of difference in every case. For example, the Born Alive Infants Protection Act was necessary to tell medical personnel that once the baby was separated from the girl or woman’s body, her wishes become irrelevant and the baby automatically receives the same protection as if born under more normal circumstances.
<<Your argument is that the woman is under stress from having a child of her rapist’s.>>
(Denise) The particular cases under discussion, the rape victims in the Bangladesh War, are quite special. Many of them were both emotionally and physically shattered through the circumstances of MASS rape or torture. I personally find it difficult even to IMAGINE what it is like to be raped by 20, 30, or more men right in a row. It seems that it could trigger actual psychosis.
<<So if the baby causes her stress before birth you argue she should be able to kill him/her.>>
(Denise) At the present time, the human embryo or fetus cannot survive outside the womb prior to about the 6th month of pregnancy. If a female is a month or 2 months pregnant, and she expels the embryo, the embryo automatically dies in the process. What is actually happening is an expulsion but that expulsion is inevitably fatal. If the pregnant female is unable to continue carrying, the embryo’s death is the result. I’m arguing she should be able to expel the embryo. If it were possible to insist on expelling into an artificial womb, I would support that. I can’t demand that these shattered women continue to carry the embryos or fetuses in their bodies.
<<Why not after birth? Your argument isn’t for bodily autonomy because then wouldn’t ALL abortions be morally justified?>>
(Denise) You can justify all abortions through that argument.
<<Your argument is for emotional distress of the mother. What if that emotional distress continues after birth? Why are you such a meanie to make a raped woman feel emotional distress looking at her rapist’s baby after birth? I mean, I don’t support infanticide but according to your argument..it would be morally permissible in this instance, correct? Since you argue that the life of the child is of no consequence if the mother has been raped and is under distress. >>
(Denise) I don’t argue — and never have — that a human embryo or fetus is “of no consequence.” The question is to what extent that consequence justifies imposing on the girl or woman who is pregnant.
A baby can be handed over to someone else. If the situation was such that handing it over is impossible, that still is not as intimate as carrying inside the body and having one’s body get big with pregnancy.
However, it is probably true that if a Bangladeshi woman who had been raped by 30 men just abandoned a resulting baby by the side of the road, she would be dealt with leniently.
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“I hope an artificial womb will be developed. Then we wouldn’t have to deal with the emotions of a human female who cannot stand to have her body filled with a result of mass rape.”
Oh yeah? how’s that baby getting from the shattered rape victim to the artificial womb that solves all our problems? Magic? Wishes? The physics of la la land, with which I am not familiar so you’ll have to enlighten me. But assuming they’re similar to the physical limitations of reality, where I live, tell me, what if the shattered woman tells you she CANNOT bear the transfer procedure?
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Sydney M says:
April 18, 2013 at 9:17 am
Denise, answer the question posed to you first. What if the woman has the baby after rape and realizes the baby looks just like her rapist. Should she be allowed to kill the baby then? What if this injured, tortured woman CANNOT BEAR to look at the baby who looks like her attacker?
(Denise) As I’ve said before — in connection with infants born alive during abortion — once the formerly pregnant woman and the baby have parted company, once the baby is outside her body, she has no say. He or she is out of her body.
Still presuming that their is no one else to care for the baby at present, the mother still has to use HER BODY to care for the child, feed him/her, change his/her diapers. In fact it would probably we worse, because now she has to look at the baby which very well might look like the rapist.
What if their is no formula available (and their is no one else to care for the baby at present), should she be able to let the baby starve, or should she be forced to use her body to nurse that baby?
And, since when does because someone reminds you of an unpleasant experience justify you killing them?
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“At the present time, the human embryo or fetus cannot survive outside the womb prior to about the 6th month of pregnancy.” A human child cannot survive outside the womb without constant care till their about 6 or 7 years old, maybe older.
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@ Julia: She is not killing the embryo or fetus because of the reminder. She is not CARRYING. The death is the result of inability or unwillingness to CARRY.
How about this? We should the woman a photograph of what the embryo or fetus looks like at her stage of pregnancy. Then we ask: Do you believe this is a human being?
If she says yes, we ask: Do you have the strength to carry for the rest of the pregnancy so this human being can be born?
Some will be able to and some will not. I’m not sure which group I’d be in. I’ve never been raped nor have I ever had an abortion.
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You still didn’t answer my question about breastfeeding. Child care does not get easier or less stressful once the child is born.
Should we ask a mother a newborn conceived in rape, are you able to care for this child so that it will grow to adulthood? If she says yes fine, but if she says no, and no one else will care for the child, should she be allowed to kill the child/let it starve?
The death would be of her unwillingness/inability to care for, feed, change diapers, hold, carry, put to sleep, keep out of trouble, etc., for this product of rape
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Julia says:
April 18, 2013 at 2:08 pm
You still didn’t answer my question about breastfeeding. Child care does not get easier or less stressful once the child is born.
(Denise) I’m not at all certain as to how responsible I could hold her. I know that many Bangladeshi women who had been mass raped did in fact kill newborns who were products of rape. The babies were drowned, smothered, and/or suffocated. That is a terrible tragedy. I honestly don’t know that I could punish women who had been so hideously brutalized. I would certainly hope other people around them would take the baby from her if she cannot care for him or her.
<<Should we ask a mother a newborn conceived in rape, are you able to care for this child so that it will grow to adulthood? If she says yes fine, but if she says no, and no one else will care for the child, should she be allowed to kill the child/let it starve?>>
(Denise) In all honesty, I can’t really answer that. I would hope that someone would be there to take the baby away from her. The advantage of the separation of the bodies is that care by someone else is then possible.
<<The death would be of her unwillingness/inability to care for, feed, change diapers, hold, carry, put to sleep, keep out of trouble, etc., for this product of rape>>
(Denise) That would be a terrible, terrible tragedy. I’m honestly not sure what the answer to that is except, as I said before, that other people should be there to take the baby from her.
Say a woman is very severely handicapped and gives birth. Her handicap makes it impossible for her to do the usual things that keep a newborn alive. The baby dies. Should she be punished? The cases might be comparable in that the rape victim could be psychologically as unable to care for the baby as a woman with a severe physical handicap.
These are indeed good questions.
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Some women have consensual sex, knowing that no contraception product on the market is 100% effective. Some of them say they would refuse to carry any child. They want to be able to kill their children legally, too. They call it abortion on demand without apology. Denise defends them, and asks that abortion remain legal so they can get what they want, and not have the responsibility toward another human being. Since Denise defends both consensual pregnant women and non-consensual pregnant women who want to hire an abortionist, she needs to embrace self-honesty and admit she is pro-choice. It’s the first step in healing. Just like AA, “Hello, my name is _____, and I’m pro-choice.” It’s ok, because after that you can ask yourself if you might rather be pro-life. Before that, you’re just in denial. Let’s call it the 12 step program to becoming pro-life. :>)
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Denise, there are two different questions to be answered:
1. Should abortion be against the law? (everyone, including a victim of sexual violence, is obligated to follow the law)
2. Should severe emotional distress reduce one’s criminal culpability if they break the law?
If the answer to both is yes, then it’s not unreasonable to expect that we wouldn’t necessarily punish the woman in the circumstances you describe. We would still however make it illegal for a doctor to perform one (on the grounds that he can refer her for psychiatric treatment, and that one isn’t generally permitted to do something bad on the grounds that an insane person has threatened to do something worse).
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I didn’t ask, how should a woman who does x be punished. I asked whether it would be morally OK? Do you think it would be morally OK for a woman to kill/let starve her newborn baby conceived in rape if their is no one else to take that child in?
And, should it be legal for the woman to pay a doctor to kill her newborn baby conceived in rape?
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But Denise, what is it about CARRYING that is so special? As already pointed out, mothers have to continue to use their bodies to care for their children after birth. I still have to feed my baby, keep him warm and rock him when he cries..I just don’t do it all with my womb anymore. But I still have a moral obligation to care for him. If I can’t care for him or don’t want to I can’t abdicate my parental responsibility.
I feel for women who are raped. I, as a woman, CANNOT imagine such terror and pain. But I cannot ignore the baby in the equation the way you can. That child is an INNOCENT just like the mother. That child is a victim as well. That child should NOT be put to death for the crime of rape that the father has committed.
And abortion will not take away the rape trauma from the mother. In fact, every story I’ve heard women share points to the opposite. Abortion made their rape trauma worse.
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I’d also like my question answered b/c I think there are absolutely no logically consistent principles underlying this “argument”, but I like to be sure before I claim to “know” something.
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Also, it is much more reasonable that a mother would be unable physically/emotionally to care for a child after birth than before. Before birth, if you take care of yourself, you are taking care of your baby – it is passive, while abortion involves doing something active. The idea that someone is unable to not go and get an abortion to kill their child does not make sense.
However, after birth, I could see a scenario where a mother is physically/emotionally unable to care for a child because it involves so many aspects – feeding, etc., all of which is done automatically by the mother’s body in pregnancy – she must now do actively.
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“But Denise, what is it about CARRYING that is so special?”
Because she (and several of her anecdotes) has a phobia of it (and I use that term deliberately). So she imagines this to be the reality for large swaths of the population and wants to base legislation and policy upon it (because she has a horror of abortion as well, unless abortion is necessary to overcome someone’s horror of being pregnant….then, it’s just something we have to allow – until artificial wombs are created.)
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Hey, I just realized.. since I used to be pro-choice myself, that would qualify me to sponsor other pro-choicers in my brand new group, Abortion Advocates Anonymous! However, since I can’t drink coffee, then neither can you, so it will be TEA and donuts at my meetings! If new members can go 6 months without advocating for or defending abortion, I’ll give them a lucky bottle cap. Who’s in?
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Actually, though, I don’t think artificial wombs would make a difference. Pro-abortion people would still complain that we are then forcing an invasive procedure on women to remove the fetus to an artificial womb (They’d probably call it “legalized rape”).
Also, often women who get an abortion do it because they think think that by getting an abortion that makes it like their mistake never happened, that their child never existed. They don’t usually get an abortion because they just have to stop being pregnant right now. Assuming that this artificial womb idea means that when the child is born it would be taken care of by someone else (because that is usally the main reason for abortion – the mother doesn’t see how she can raise this child), this artificial wombwould present the same problems to them as adoption ( “it’s cruel to abandon my child to someone else; that would be being a bad mother” “I would go crazy from not knowing what my child was like or how she/he turned out” “My child would think I didn’t love him/her”).
The artificial womb idea is more of argument tactic, than a practical solution.
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“Actually, though, I don’t think artificial wombs would make a difference. Pro-abortion people would still complain that we are then forcing an invasive procedure on women to remove the fetus to an artificial womb (They’d probably call it “legalized rape”).”
Bingo.
“They don’t usually get an abortion because they just have to stop being pregnant right now.”
In the real world. But who wants to base arguments on that when we could obsess over outliers and fiction? Much more fun.
“The artificial womb idea is more of argument tactic, than a practical solution.”
A bad argument tactic given the first point, but otherwise true.
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Actually, the idea of artificial wombs has been around for a long time and not for reasons connected to abortion. It has been proposed as a way to create babies more likely to be healthy rather than defective. Women who are pregnant might do many things that are, at least marginally, apt to cause problems for the fetus they carry. For example, someone told me that eating cheese is reported to have a (very small) relationship to genetic breakdown. The artificial womb idea is based on the idea that those things would be avoided so babies would be more apt to be healthy.
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Would it be morally right for the mother of a newborn to allow the baby to starve? No.
However, a woman who is shattered as many women were in the Bangladesh was might well do just that. So would a woman severely handicapped for other reasons.
Regarding carrying: people have always recognized that pregnancy is special. This is why women were NEVER prosecuted for murder when abortion was illegal and they won’t be prosecuted for murder after Roe v. Wade is overturned. Indeed, usually only the abortionist was prosecuted — and even THEY weren’t prosecuted for murder.
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“Would it be morally right for the mother of a newborn to allow the baby to starve? No.”
Despite the fact that she must use HER BODY to care for that child, as I’ve pointed out.
Then, how is it morally right for the mother of an unborn baby conceived in rape to kill that child?
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Denise “Actually, the idea of artificial wombs has been around for a long time and not for reasons connected to abortion”
I meant that it wouldn’t make a difference to abortion.
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Julia says:
April 18, 2013 at 4:24 pm
“Would it be morally right for the mother of a newborn to allow the baby to starve? No.”Despite the fact that she must use HER BODY to care for that child, as I’ve pointed out.Then, how is it morally right for the mother of an unborn baby conceived in rape to kill that child?
(Denise) Again, pregnancy has always been treated as special which is why aborters have never been prosecuted for murder and even abortionists (often prosecuted) were not prosecuted for murder but for the specific crime of abortion.
Expelling the embryo or fetus from her body (at the cost of embryonic or fetal human life) is morally troubling. I would first force her to see a photograph of the embryo or fetus at her stage of pregnancy. After she is forced to see that picture, she may choose to sacrifice her body to carry to term. But the special nature of pregnancy is such that I would only force the information on her and not the continuation of the pregnancy.
If we are referring to women mass raped and tortured as in the Bangladesh War, they might not have the mental strength left to carry to term.
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CT says:
April 18, 2013 at 3:50 pm
“Actually, though, I don’t think artificial wombs would make a difference. Pro-abortion people would still complain that we are then forcing an invasive procedure on women to remove the fetus to an artificial womb (They’d probably call it “legalized rape”).” Bingo.
(Denise) No. You’d just do the abortion but the embryo or fetus wouldn’t be torn apart. The doctor would remove it whole and alive, then transplant.
It might be relevant to remember that we probably ALL have rapists in our ancestry. While she might have been slightly facetious, Jewish author Erica Jong once speculated that her nose is so un-stereotypically small — in contrast to the large hooked nose most people associated with Jews — because “a great-grandmother may have been raped by a Cossack.”
Throughout history, rapists have spread their seed hither and yon and girls and women have gotten big bellied and given birth to babies as a result of agonizing and dreadful attacks. It is not completely unreasonable to believe that girls and women have just got to suck it up and accept having babies through rape as something that goes along with being female. In the novel “Son of the Morning” by Joyce Carol Oates, 15-year-old Elsa Vickery has a baby after being gang-raped. The pastor tells her that Eve was tempted first and ever since, we women have been paying the price. He also notes that she “might be the closest to Jesus of all of us” because of her martyrdom.
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Again, pregnancy has always been treated as special which is why aborters have never been prosecuted for murder and even abortionists (often prosecuted) were not prosecuted for murder but for the specific crime of abortion.
That’s not always the case. Abortionists could be charged with murder if there was sufficient evidence to show that they killed the fetus. This required the woman being pregnant when the abortion was performed, the fetus being alive at the time, and that the abortion itself was the cause of death. To prove this, it was generally necessary that the infant was born alive but died from injuries. Even today, murderers are sometimes charged with a lesser crime when there is not enough evidence to convict them of a felony.
The “uniqueness” or “special nature” of pregnancy can’t be used to resolve the issue in favour of allowing abortion. Equality under the law is a cornerstone of liberal democracy (in the U.S, the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment affirms this). That means like cases ought to be treated in the same manner. Nothing is ever exactly pregnancy, but if there exists a case similar enough to preserve the important details then it will serve a useful purpose.
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@ Navi: You are correct that the uniqueness of pregnancy doesn’t resolve this issue in favor of legal abortion. After all, abortion was outlawed for many years although the law recognized the special nature of pregnancy. Aborting women weren’t usually prosecuted and never for murder. OTOH, once the body of the woman and the baby have parted ways, the woman could be prosecuted for murder of a newborn.
However, even in the killing of a newborn, special consideration is usually shown. Very rarely does a women who kills a newborn get the book thrown at her. She is usually treated with leniency.
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