Stanek weekend question II: Your thoughts on marrying young?
(Be sure to take the poll at the end of the post.)
An article in The Atlantic is getting a lot of buzz.
Unexpected from a liberal rag came this piece by Karen Swallow Prior on March 22, “The case for getting married young”:
There are costs to delaying marriage, a phenomenon that has reached a new threshold, with the average age of marriage for men reaching the historic high of 29 and women 27….
While men and women are waiting longer to marry, they aren’t waiting quite so long to have children. The average age at which a woman first gives birth (25.7) is now earlier than the average age of first marriage (26.5), a phenomenon… which brings with it all of the well-documented concerns that surround the rearing of children outside of wedlock.
Unmarried twenty-somethings are more likely to be depressed, drink excessively, and report lower levels of satisfaction than their married counterparts…
Marriage has become… “hedonistic,” based on the exponential amount of pleasure – material, emotional, sexual, familial, you name it – that can be derived from the coupling of two individuals….
Culturally, young adults have increasingly come to see marriage as a “capstone” rather than a “cornerstone” – that is, something they do after they have all their other ducks in a row, rather than a foundation for launching into adulthood and parenthood.
Interestingly… much of the pressure to delay marriage comes from parents who encourage their children to finish their education before marrying….
Looking back over a marriage of nearly three decades… [n]ow as a college-educated, doctorate-holding woman, I can attest that marrying young (at age 19) was most beneficial: to me, to my husband, and to the longevity of our marriage. Our achievements have come, I am convinced, not despite our young marriage, but because of it…. We invested the vigor of our youth not in things to bring into the marriage, but in each other and our marriage….
Such a model of marriage reflects the conclusion Regnerus drew from his research,
Marriage actually works best as a formative institution, not an institution you enter once you think you’re fully formed. We learn marriage, just as we learn language, and to the teachable, some lessons just come easier earlier in life….
Washington Post columnist Michelle Singletary also wrote a good piece on this:
But there’s a consequence to waiting to get married.
“The biggest downside to delayed marriage in America is that many young adults are now putting the baby carriage before marriage,” said report co-author and National Marriage Project director Bradford Wilcox, a U.Va. sociology professor. “What they often don’t realize is that children born outside of marriage are significantly more likely to be exposed to a revolving cast of caretakers and the social, emotional and financial fallout associated with family instability and single parenthood.”
I have maintained for some time that delaying marriage not only increases the likelihood of bringing damaged hearts to it, it also upends our biological clocks.
It’s difficult if not tortuous to promote abstinence at the same time one promotes delaying marriage. Doing so betrays the God-given and biologically proven sexual urges of youth.
Delaying marriage is a huge contributor to abortion. According to the CDC, unmarried mothers account for 84.3% of all abortions. Also according to the CDC, 29.6% of all abortion are committed between the ages of 20-24, followed by 21.6% in the 25-29 age group.
The spike in infertility problems can in part be contributed to delayed childbearing and abortion/STDs. In a piece, “Infertility: An emerging priority,” the CDC wrote:
Challenges to human fertility may arise from many conditions caused by genetic abnormalities, infectious or environmental agents, and certain behaviors. Natural aging processes also place a limit to human fertility…. Recent trends toward postponing age at first pregnancy have highlighted the natural limits of fertility and accelerated the development and use of medical technology to overcome such limits. The proportion of first births to women aged 30 years and older has increased more than fourfold since 1975, from 5% to 24% in 2006.
Lowered infertility would also bring fewer children killed by IVF. Between 44 and 60% of all children conceived for IVF die during the process. That number doesn’t include the 600,000+ “access” preborn children now living in frozen suspended animation who haven’t yet been implanted.
Well, enough of my soapbox.
What do you think?
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
My very dear “great aunt Fran” married around the turn of the century when she was 18y/o. Back then it was just expected this was when young women married. She always said she was way too young to marry.
I don’t know if early marriage is necessarily more successful or if people just stayed in it because it was expected. Also divorce is as old as the human race and is cross cultural, or unwanted spouses were either put out to pasture or were disposed of.
Sorry, but I don’t see where anything has or will change or where marrying older or younger will ever make a difference.
I don’t have a problem with it. My girlfriend married young and I believe she’s going on 54 years now. Its no longer a happy marriage . Tolerable as they are both up in age. They will not divorce.
Hi Heather,
That’s why I think there’s no easy answer. At one time, and in many modern day societies, young girls were married as soon as they reached puberty because of shorter life spans. If a woman made it to her 30s to enjoy her grandchildren, that was remarkable. Life was short and difficult.
I’ve long suspected that many of the “old” and “barren” women of the Bible who “miraculously” became pregnant were in fact women in their late 20s or early 30s who by the standards of their culture, were “barren” if in the course of their marriage they had not borne children by this point. How age was measured is another factor as well, it may not have been by our measure. Also, women would have appeared old. There was no Lady Clairol, spas, or cosmetic surgery. The difficult lives these women had didn’t keep one very young either.
My sister had to marry at a young age and produced 3 children in quick succession. She always bitterly resented it. The children paid the price. Being married does not in itself make one a good parent. Also people have children for various reasons, not all of them so noble or in the child’s best interest.
Out of wedlock pregnancies are also as old as the human race and I’m not certain whether they really have anything to do with our marriage norms. I understand that 65% of colonial American brides were pregnant when they married.
Marrying young (age 21) did not work for me. The marriage lasted about 3 years. Other friends of mine in their early 20’s were getting married and I honestly felt that if I did not marry by 25 there was something wrong with me. How I wish I would have waited until I knew myself better and could problem solve and handle conflict resolution with skill. It’s also important to marry your best friend, not someone who mistreats you and makes you feel less than nothing. LL
Definitely diaagree with Mary and Heather. Marriage was intended to be the one-flesh, bone of my bone. flesh of my flesh, leave mother and father and cleave with his wife relationship. It was meant to be symbolic of the love that Christ has for His church and “gave His life for her” relationship. I am so sorry that you have not seen healthy marriages as God intended them to be. Take it from an old lady, married at 20 for 40 years, parents married for over 50 years with grandparents who were married for almost 50 before parted by death, it was meant to be much more than you have seen. Marriage meant to be the most intimate spiritual, emotional, mental, physical, psychological, hormonal, immunological, social and sexual complementary union of a man and a woman with bonds so tight that they become one in every way, sexual union in true marriage is “mind-blowing” because the couple loves to please each other and is open to the most creative beautiful event; the creation of a unique child from the egg-sperm DNA of the husband and wife. Those without spiritual discernment will not “get it” because the “Theology of the Body” is a truly a spiritual mystery (I am not Catholic btw). I am so sorry that Christians and the church has lost it’s mission of being salt and light and has bought into the lies of the counterfiet, of this it’s all about “me” culture. The young generation of Christ-followers who understand this are blessed beyond measure and I have seen them marry some young some older and make beautiful marriages with beautiful babies as the by product of their marital love. Just got a chance this week to hold and love a few beautiful babies of married family members who have God-ordained loving marriages. It was awesome to see and feel the love between the couples and their babies. No I didn’t say other couples don’t love each other or their babies but it is different and on a totally different spiritual level.
Jill I totally agree with your premise in the articles quoted above. You are probably going to get a lot of negative feedback on this (as you can already see) because so few “get it”. So sad. We have lost the true meaning of give and take sacrificial, God-centered “marriage”. I pray the church will wake up soon. There are a remnant of those who have not bowed their knees to Baal.
I wanted to get married young. I “planned” to get married young. My mother married young (the first time) at 17. Her mother (my maternal grandmother) married at 15.
As it happened, I was the oldest first-time bride in the history of our family at 40, and the oldest first-time mother at 41.
Sometimes life throws a monkey wrench into your “plans”.
I married at 20 and I believe it was unwise to wait once we knew–makes it that much easier for sin to creep in (though that has more to do with the length of engagement). 19 would have been better for us. Coming up on 10 years this summer.
I couldn’t agree more with marrying young. I think the benefits far outweigh any possible disadvantages.
This quote summarizes my feelings accurately:
“Marriage actually works best as a formative institution, not an institution you enter once you think you’re fully formed.”
This was refreshing to read.
Whether it is civil marriage or religious marriage there is no more pro-life institution than marriage. Building up marriage should be one of the main goals of the prolife movement.
I married at nineteen. The marriage lasted barely five years. We were both incredibly immature and had no idea what we were doing, and did a lot of damage to each other. I know all young marriages aren’t like that, but I am still wary of them. Eighteen, nineteen, twenty year olds seem pretty childish to me, to be making that kind of commitment.
Problem is, it wasn’t a commitment, was it?
Interesting premise. Agree that delaying marriage just for the sake of “waiting to grow up” is not always beneficial to anyone involved. There also is a need for society to help young couples set up realistic expectations. They need to see there will be conflict. They need to see that at times, marriage is HARD. There are NO perfect marriages.
At the same time, I don’t know that it’s wise to create marriage as an ideal state, causing single people to feel inferior. Or worse, when it means people ‘settle’ in looking for a mate who isn’t very responsible in life in general. Pre-married couples should spend time actually getting to know one another in “real life” settings — e.g., take a pet to the vet. Get the oil changed on the car. Visit a sick friend or relative.
Hopefully couples can take a longer-term perspective and where possible, plan on influencing their grandchildren and great-grandchildren, if God allows for that. Much easier to have influence on the 3rd and 4th generation IF you give birth for the first time in your 20s, rather than waiting until late 30s or early 40s.
Jack, just curious, were you prepared by your family, friends or Church before you were married? Did anyone talk to you about what a marriage means?
I know the only instruction I got about marriage was the marriage prep course I took. It wasn’t barely enough. I needed my beliefs and misconceptions to be questioned thoroughly by someone who knew me well.
In my opinion marrying when your immature is never good. I was older when I got married but I was still very immature. I have learned that maturity is not dependent on age.
“Problem is, it wasn’t a commitment, was it?”
You have no idea what the situation was to say something like that to me. We went in thinking we’d be married forever.
“Jack, just curious, were you prepared by your family, friends or Church before you were married? Did anyone talk to you about what a marriage means?”
No. I don’t really talk to my family, most of my friends were single people in their late teens (what would they know about marriage lol). My ex’s church didn’t want her marrying a non-Christian so they didn’t let us have pre-marriage counseling there. “Unequally yoked” and all that.
We married young, had four children and now Nine grandkids; it’s been a rough 53 years but love and fidelity to Christ, Mother Mary, and each other have keep us together through some tough times. I believe marriages are made in heaven and are eternal!!! Remember Jesus said: What God has joined together let no one asunder! Will we still be married in heaven? I don’t know but I think we will be united with each other in God in a better way! No tears or sufferings!!! God bless+
I don’t what it was like for everyone else growing up…but I can’t recall anyone talking about marriage in a real and serious manner – discussing the responsibility and commitment, etc… required.
I think our society needs to begin making marriage education classes instead of (or at the very least…alongside of) sex ed classes available to high school students. Marriage ed should be part of the curriculum.
The biggest mistake I ever made was marrying my ex, even though we (I?) were/was sooooo in love at the time.
My kids are not the “mistakes”, being involved with their father was. And having the variety pack of children-one “bastard” and one “legitimate”-hasn’t affected their growth or development any.
But I can think of a boyfriend or two I had a relationship with that it wasn’t the worst thing in the world.
Pamela, I hear your point and think it is a very valid point. I have a few friends (and all of them seem to be women) still desiring to be married. They aren’t married for a lack of trying but because of circumstance.
I think the article was trying to address the situation where people put obstacles and priorities before marriage by their own doing. Some parts of life appear to follow the law of attraction (as discussedin the new age film The Secret). We have a tendency to achieve what we focus on and prioritize.
I, for one, need to constantly learn how to get of God’s way for me. It seems to me that it is myself who keep messing up His plans for me.
(I should also add that I stopped attending Church in my teens so I can’t say whether my Church talked about marriage in all those Sunday homilies that I missed. However, if I use the homilies that I have been exposed to I will say that it is highly unlikely. It is very rare when I hear a homily about marriage, and even more rare to hear a homily about the pain and difficulty of divorce.)
Honestly, I just think it really depends on the person. Marrying young works for some couples, not for others. Just as there is no ironclad formula for life, there is no ironclad age that everyone should for sure be married off by. I do think that having children out of the wedlock are generally a bad idea, but that too can work for some. It just all depends.
I think it depends on how you are raised to approach adulthood. However, all the marriages I’ve seen that have lasted were between high school sweet hearts. I married young and dh and I are going on 12 years now. It just gets better and better for us.
I think it’s easier to grow together than it is to combine two established households.
I think it’s honestly a combination of needing to develop your own person by yourself, and needing to grow with your siggy. I am a different person since I started dating my boyfriend, and we definitely have “grown together” a bit, but I don’t think it would have worked out had we met a few years back…
I wasn’t ready for marriage when I was 21. No way. I would have been divorced by now. Lucky I did not meet my lobster until I was 26, got married when I was 28. We are forever. We are sticking. It’s a covenantal marriage. We’re not trying it out. 18 years this December.
Some girls would be ready. But I was never going to be that kind of girl. And I will tell you the BIG REASON this is is the damage I did to myself with all my experimenting and promiscuous ways before I met dh. I believed that I was good enough to hook up with, but was any man going to stick with me forever?? No way.
Except gracious God had a surprise for me. ;) It’s amazing to be committed, marrried, covenanted, loved, treasured. Those years I spent not being any of those things were not helpful.
Mary I am not sure how far you’re going back in human history!! Anyway, a shorter average lifespan does not mean that certain people did not live to very old age – it simply means that fewer did. So people in Biblical times were quite aware of old age versus middle age. The people living in Biblical times weren’t ignorant. So your point that 30 year-old women having children would’ve appeared old is misleading on two counts: 1) only 50 years ago it was thought the having children past the age of 30 was considered old and risky and then that age moved up to 35 then to 40. 2) It is only now, and this article, reasserting the biological truth of the matter that after 30 the risks of childbearing begin to rise.
I agree with your point that marriage does not necessarily make one a good parent but as the article makes clear, it definitely gives you a better chance to be.
The article also never said that some children aren’t better living with one parent, only that on average children do better with married parents.
I also understand that people have children for all sorts of non-noble reasons; however, that is not confined to married couples. Also this issue can be address in Marriage ed where people can be educated about the more noble reasons to have children. The solution to change the motives as to why individuals have children is not in discrediting marriage but in dealing with their motivational issues. Similarly just because the phemenon of out of wedlock pregnancies have always existed doesn’t mean they are good or that they can’t be reduced.
Laura Loo, you raised some excellent points and advice. Marriage at any age is never guaranteed to work, especially if the people married don’t know themselves. And it is definitely wise advice to marry a “best-friend” and someone who doesn’t mistreat you. This kind of advice should be included in the marriage ed course so that people don’t have to experience a bad marriage in order to learn what a good marriage is.
A7X although there is some truth in the statement marrying younds “depends” on a variety of reasons and on the people getting married – I think it is more important to provide some advice and guidance. Off the top of my head, I think society should be advising men and women about the fixed biological clock, the responsibilities, the skills, and the needs of each partner when discussing marriage. Many other topics need to be discussed as well such as explaining why discussing your values with planned partner is important should also be included. It is better to talk than it is to simply shut down all discussion because the success of each marriage ”depends” on the individuals involved.
Given our biology alone, it seems to me that humans are made to be married and have children at fairly young ages. That has worked very well in many societies and it still does in some.
Having said that, our society in the USA, our societal structures, our economy, are not favorable for those who want to marry and have children young. We have lived through generations now in which waiting to get married has been urged and we don’t seem to be doing much to teach about the importance of marriage and the commitment it involves.
However, that doesn’t mean that getting married young is a bad idea, it just means it’s challenging. Challenges can be healthy for a marriage if we are prepared for and have the commitment for facing them.
My wife was 18 and I was 22 when we got married, and we started having children two years later. We were married while we were still in college. My wife worked when she could until we had children, a little over a year apart. I started off with a salary well below poverty level and almost no benefits. It didn’t get much better over most of the next 4-5 years. But we have had a great 33 year marriage rough times and all, and two daughters that have turned out great and are happily married since their early twenties. No secret formula just committed to each other and to Christ.
As a Christian I believe it is the responsibility of the church to teach Biblically about marriage and family and to put a big emphasis on it. I also believe the schools, at least through high school, should teach about this, but I don’t expect it, at least not from the public schools, which is unfortunate.
Some cultural training and changes are also needed. For one thing, if family members lived near each other more and were more supportive of each other, it would help a lot. There is too much selfish individualism and too little emphasis on family and community, in my opinion.
So overall I am for working toward younger marriages, though it obviously depends upon individual situations, it can’t be done just for the sake of doing it.
Thank you Victor, Tyler, Rachel, and Courtney (love your testimony of God’s grace at 3:15pm) for your great posts.
Over 50 years of research still backs up that one man, one woman stable (not perfect) marriage benefits men, women and children. Married people and their children are happier, healthier, wealthier, live longer, less chronic disease, less alcholism, less drug abuse, less depression, less suicide, less domestic violence, less child abuse, less abortions, less poverty, less stress, less mental illness, less truancy, less drop outs, less crime, less juvenile delinquency, less incarceration, etc. (The Ring Makes All the Difference, Why Marriage Matters, The Case for Marriage for those who really care).
Comparing a commited, sacred, covenant marriage to what most people think a marriage is today is like comparing a beautiful flower garden to a muddy swamp. God bless. I am praying for those who have lived through a painful marriage and divorce, God created and has a much better plan for you and your children.
Hi Tyler,
People may have lived a long time but how was age determined? Did people even care? When a girl was married off at puberty was she 13 or 16? These were different times and different cultural perspectives. A woman in her thirties could well be a grandmother many times over and be considered old, and look it, assuming she even lived that long.
Its just an opinion Tyler. But I remain convinced these women may not have been that old. In the cultural perspective of that time, a married woman not having children for many years, considered barren, and then conceiving could seem miraculous. BTW, did we ever hear of “barren” men? Maybe the women didn’t conceive because the men had a problem.
Thanks Tyler.
Also, I’d like to say that love is not enough for a marriage to succeed. There must be commitment (God’s variety) so that the spouses will never leave or forsake each other. Marriage is NOT for the weak and timid but those that are and choose to move forward with marriage can do it if they realize it’s a non-breakable covenant and treat each other with love and respect. (My ex did the divorcing and, last I heard, was on his third marriage…married a stranger in the Philippines). Now (since I’m older) I would love to commit to the person God has for me (if there is one :D ) LL
Laura that is another great point – I saw a movie (I haven’t read the book) called The Vow and the message in the film was a very similar to your point: Love is a choice, a commitment. According to this point of view, too many confuse a good feeling for Love (not that good feelings are bad or should not be appreciated but they don’t comprise the totality of what love means).
I will pray to God that you meet that special someone.
I would second the point that it takes a supportive family and community to create strong marriages – when the extended family and community don’t support marriage married couples are isolated and alienated. It is not possible for these unaided marriages to succeed, it is just harder for them to succeed.
Thanks for sharing the reading list Prolifer L. Of the three do you have one that you would recommend the most?
I married at 19, and we just celebrated out 25th anniversary. My husband was a private first class in the Army, and I had 1.5 semesters of college under my belt. So we basically started with nothing. We have built our lives together through ups and downs, and we have learned a lot from each other and about ourselves in the process. One thing we learned is that you have to make sacrifices for each other. The other is that happiness is a choice. No matter what life throws at you, you can choose to find the positives in any situation knowing that whatever ails you will pass or you learn to cope. It doesn’t matter what age you are, if you are not willing to respect the positives and negatives in your spouse, make sacrifices and deal with adversity with dignity, marriage will be a rocky road.
Hi Tyler.
I would have to say the one I liked the best was “The Ring Makes All the Difference” it is correctly sub-titled “The Hidden Consequences of Cohabitation and the Strong Benefits of Marriage” it is the newest book by Glenn T. Stanton dealing specifically with breaking down tons of research on “is test-driving your marriage smart” and why not. I recommended this book to a friend who gave it to her son, they got married instead of “shacking up”.
Why Marriage Matters by Stanton is great and gives an overall view comparing marriage to all the other relational arrangements divorce, separation, cohabitation and singlehood documenting physical and emotional health benefits, financial, economic, sociologic, psychological, educational, sexual fulfillment benefits of marriage with tons of research to back it up.
The Case for Marriage: Why Married People Are Happier, Healthier, and Better Off Financially by Lina J. Waite and Maggie Gallagher is very good and similar to Why Marriage Matters.
Hope this helps.
Oh my goodness. Reading Tyler’s responses makes me weep for whomever is married to him (man or woman). Jacks history also makes me weep. Goodness…lots of weeping on my part haha
Ask Matthew warren about early marriage!!!
Moving on from incest to suicide as your go-to joke, Jake? Super classy, man.
Thanks jack
Man jack, I actually tried to be sympathetic to you. I was being nice….why the hate?
Yeah, sorry. You’re so sweet and I’m such an ass to you lol. Sorry buddy.
No worries!!! As long as we are cool now I’m good
Oh sure we cool bro. I think people like you are seriously awesome.
Oh cool. I like how you say “bro” and call me “seriously awesome.” It lets me know you are a “hip” dude that speaks my lingo and is down yo!
Lmao. But in all seriousness dude, how old are you? I know you’re quite a bit older than me. Aren’t you growing out of the internet trolling thing yet?
Why do you think I’m quite a bit older than you? I’m 37. Maybe I am quite a bit older but I’m wondering why you assume so. Born in 1975, birthday coming up in 2 weeks which will put me at 38.
Because you told me your kids were like 13 and that younger one. If I had a 13 year old I would have had him at age 11.
But yeah, you’re way too old to internet troll. Happy birthday!
Yes. I have a 13 year old and a 9 year old. So yes I am older than you. Thanks for the birthday wishes!!! It means a lot coming from you Jackie boy!!
Lol, maybe after this next birthday you’ll start acting like a grown-up!
Haha yeah yo! Maybe I will start to act “grown up” and deny women the right to control their bodies. Is that what you want Jackie boy? It is shocking to me that someone like YOU would deny another person the right to control their bodies. YOU of all people should allow a person to say “you know what, I’m going to say NO, and not let another person control me!” But what do I know?
Well, someone like ME believes that children shouldn’t be at the legal mercy of parents who don’t care about their welfare, no matter how young and defenseless they are. It’s really not that difficult to see how I came to those conclusions instead of the ones you suggest.
Hahaha. Way to avoid the point. I would expect nothing less from such a “young” person such as yourself. Keep up Jackie boy, it ain’t about the fetus, it’s about the female. Imagine if you will, a girl who had to endure, oh I don’t know, a situation where she was molested and became pregnant. What would you suggest she do?? Oh wait I know…you would advocate anything except abortion. It is really quite naive Jackie boy. Grow up
You have no idea…it is comical that you think that your experiences somehow make you qualified to speak for women. You are a joke
I’m not even the one who keeps bringing up my childhood, you freaking loon. You’re doing that, because you think that you’re making some clever point by comparing being raped by a parent to being denied the “right” to kill a fetus. You’re not clever, you’re not funny, and you’re not smart. You’re really just a cowardly bully who sits behind a computer screen and messes with people. Go campaign for NOW and stfu.
I’ve never once claimed to speak for women. Only in pro-choice fairy-tale land are women the only people involved in an abortion.
You don’t bring up your past ?? Then how the hell do we all know about it??? Did I make it up??? Ummm, no, you have CLEARLY made it a part of your posts and use it to define you and argue your points. Sorry if you don’t like it, but you are the one who intoduced molestation into the conversation not me.
And the fact that you of all people would argue that a young girl raped by her parent could NOT get an abortion is disposable.
Dispicable
Mentioned it a couple times, and then someone (can’t imagine who) decided to track my personal stuff down so they could have a good voyeuristic laugh about it. Did you magically forget about that? And the weird part is you don’t even see how effed up that is. Since I have a different opinion than you, you think treating me like that is a-ok. I feel sorry for you man, I have no idea what it’s like to carry that much cruelty with me.
And you can’t even freaking spell *despicable*.
Yeah you got me there…damn autocorrect. so you really think that I was the one who outed you to the world about your past?? Man you are naive (but I’m so old what do I know)? I didn’t make up your past, you introduced it to defend your stance. I have only made you look foolish for doing so.
Here, I’ll make you a deal, I’ll be okay with an incest/rape exception if you agree to help make elective abortions illegal. You know the 90% of abortions that you’re trying to use rare cases to justify? You guys constantly hype rape as some trump card to hide the fact that you’re really justifying the vast, vast majority of cases that involve a healthy mother, and a healthy, non-rape conceived fetus. Sure, we’re the despicable ones.
Nah, I’m pretty sure I’m not the one who looks foolish. You just made yourself look like a victim-blaming bully, which you really are. You can’t even defend yourself from that one.
You are okay with a rape exception? Way to cave Jackie boy. I don’t agree. All women, whether they were raped or simply had consensual sex should be able to kill the baby growing inside them.
Lol I’m obviously not okay with a rape exception, the rhetorical point just flew over your head there. But honestly, what would I expect from a man in his late thirties who gets off on incest and suicide jokes?
I empower victims!! You shame them
Lol yes, go you. Such an empowering awesome person you are. The only person out of the two of us who ever shames victims here is you. And you know it.
Haha. You don’t even get it. I never claimed that I hide behind a rape exception. I, in fact, want legal abortion access for all women. Man keep up
The point I was making
Jake’s head
I love it!!! You try to make a claim that my side hides behind rape as an exception. I never have ever hid behind that. I want abortion for all women no matter what. Include rape yes (you should sympathize), as well as anyone else who wants one
Haha. I love how you say we use rape as a trump card and then I call you on it and say rape has nothing to do with it and you cave. What a tool
Screw the rape/incest card (pun intended). Jackie boy keep up. All women have a right to control their bodies. INCLUDING raped women.
Actually you’re quite rare among the choicers because at least you will admit that you support killing a baby no matter what.
Your side constantly, constantly uses rape as a trump card. They call kids conceived in rape “rapist spawn” and crap like that, they can’t possibly discuss the ethics of abortion in general without screaming “omg what about rape you misogynists”. It’s childish. When you get called out on you, you revert to the crap “no I wasn’t just talking about rape I was talking about all womyn!!!”. Such bs.
Ew you’re sick man. You can’t get enough of the nasty rape jokes can you?
Women can control their own bodies all they want. Their unborn baby isn’t part of their body, though.
Hey! Don’t assume I fall into the “rape as an exception” crowd. I have NEVER conceded that in my argument. You assumed I would and I did NOT. Sorry your argument failed but the fact is all women should control their bodies, rape/incest victims included.
“Their unborn baby is not part of their body”!!! Really??? I know plenty of women who would beg to differ
Well, sorry, your friends who deny that the unborn baby is a separate organism are just uneducated. Or, more likely, insisting on believing an easily disprovable assertion because they want to justify killing unborn babies on a whim.
Hahaha. So if a baby is independent, then I guess the woman has NO role in its life. So I guess you don’t object to a woman doing to her body whatever she wishes since she has no role in the fetus’s viability?
Did I say independent? Is that what I said?
So on top of not being able to spell, you also have an issue with reading comprehension.
Not a part of their body????!!!!! Are you seriously arguing that???
You said not a part of her body. Are you sticking by that?
Yes, the baby has it’s own DNA, it’s a separate organism. It may reside in her body but it’s not part of her.
Hahahaha. Oh man. This is priceless. You are sticking by this argument? “Baby has it’s own DNA blah blah blah…l”. Well if they are truly separate organisms then you must surely feel that a woman has the right to treat her body in any manner that she pleases. Or are you arguing that people, who are separate autonomous individuals, lose certain rights because they are pregnant?
You just lost Jackie boy. If they are truly separate, as you argue, then the woman has every right to control her “separate” body!!!
Thanks for playing
Going to bed, psycho, it’s like four in the morning.
A pregnant woman has the same obligations to protect her minor child that any other parent does. Which includes not murdering them. It’s a bit of a burden, but whatever, you can’t just go around hurting your children. I can’t do whatever I want if it harms my kids, neither can you, and neither can a pregnant woman.
Jake, I am a woman. A woman who has birthed two children. MALES btw. My sons were NEVER a part of my body. I am sorry biology is such a hard concept for you to grasp but let me help you out. My sons have penises. I have never had one. My sons have different blood types than me. I have never possessed 2 hearts, 2 brains, 20 toes, 20 fingers…
When I carried my sons they were distinct, separate, living, human individuals.
did you know that being IN something doesn’t mean you’re part OF that something? For instance when I’m IN my house I’m not part OF the house. Big bucket of duh here. Sorry it’s so hard for you to grasp this relatively easy concept.
And btw, chauvinist, do not pretend you speak for women or that you care for us when you want us to scrape our babies out of bodies and endure physical pain and emotional pain that lasts a lifetime.
Shut up Jake. Just SHUT UP.
Whether or not early marriages work is probably dependent on the fact that many young people in the U.S. are very immature in their 20s and don’t know what they want. My husband was 19, and I was 21 when we married – and now we have a baby on the way. Yeah, we have no money. Yeah, life is difficult. But I think that if you find that someone, someone who treats you right and treasures you and – for Christians – Christ above all – well, I’d rather go through life’s hard times with someone than alone. Being single isn’t amazing. Life is difficult for everyone. But I think learning to get through tough times with someone is easier than getting through tough times alone. But maybe that’s just me.
Again, though, early marriage depends on the individuals involved. And it’s not for everyone, that’s for sure.
Also, Jake, glad to know I have a penis for nine months while carrying my son. That’s so fascinating. Biology 101 via Jake. Priceless. Seriously, man, give me a break. Babies are separate people from their mothers. Yes, pregnant women can do what they want to their bodies. If I want chocolate ice cream or to get my hair dyed, I can do that. I have the right to drive, vote, whatever as a pregnant human – BUT I don’t have the right to end my baby’s life – just like I don’t have the right to end any other human’s life. Sorry.
I think it’s REALLY important that people learn to go through hard times alone. at the end of the day, it’s YOU that gets you through tough times, not someone else.
Yeah, it’s important to know how to handle adversity. But “Life will be tough” is not an excuse to hold off getting married. And I actually do think there’s value in going through hard times by yourself. Even if you’re not married, most people have someone to help them – friends, family, etc.
Congrats LibertyBelle I’m excited for you, I know how much you guys wanted a baby.
much of the problem is college. in america, a person of either sex typically graduates high school at about 18. to have a good start, someone must attend college for 4 years. the result is that genuine adulthood is delayed until the age of 22 or even older. that is why marriage is so often delayed.
the educational system must be completely revamped with an eye to enabling people to get started as self-supporting adults at about 17 or 18 and married at about that age.
in addition, the whole system of hook-ups must be discarded in favor of something like chaperoned dating that is oriented not just to having fun or having a good time but specifically to choosing a husband or wife.
regardless of contraception or abortion, most women want to have babies. they don’t want to delay child-bearing until fertility decreases. if they don’t marry young, they will have babies single
Very well put Sydney M and LibertyBelle.
DeniseNoe you have some good thoughts there.
Our current educational system, at least the public school system, is woefully inadequate to preparing people to live and deal with life, including marriage and family. Part of that is because they are too busy indoctrinating instead of teaching.
However, the public education system really does not do much for helping people to get work or get a good start on adulthood either.
About love. Love is indeed a commitment. The problem is that many believe love is feelings, which come and go very easily. Or they believe that love is sexual attraction, which in itself is not a solid basis for a committed relationship with one person for life. Love is a decision and it’s one you keep making and keep making…
Congratulations, LibertyBelle!
Congrats LibertyBelle!! When are you due?
Congratulations, LibertyBelle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Marrying young has its advantages, and worked well for most of human history. For centuries, children were raised and formed with the expectation that marriage and fidelity would be their best hope for happiness in this life.
Waiting to marry has other advantages, I suppose. We have not tried this experiment during a time when young people are formed for commitment and fidelity. The culture surrounding our young people is all about how to avoid commitment, and that’s why we have so much divorce and illegitimacy and single-parents.
Congratualtions LibertyBelle. Blessings to you and your husband. I pray you have a healthty pregnancy and a safe blessed delivery. Take good care of yourself. I love babies!! Isn’t it great to be pro-life?
I think it depends on maturity, preparation, family-background and how you view marriage.
If I had married the guy I thought I was going to marry at 18, we would never have worked. We’re friends, now and he’s buddies with my husband, but it’s just as well we broke up when we did.
I married my husband in around my mid-20’s. We’re coming up to 9 years and I couldn’t be happier. We went through marriage prep classes, meeting with the priest, NFP classes. My parents were very much marriage is a covenant/forever-commitment and his parents are still married (his father takes care of his mother who has Alzheimer’s). So we both had good home-models of “sticking it out”, which helps.
Mom gave me the best advice ever before I got married–something I hang on to and pass on to others: “You may not always FEEL like you love each other. Feelings come and go. However, it’s the COMMITMENT that will keep you two together.” They’ve been married almost 46-47 years and have been a testimony to love, marriage, commitment, parenthood. I have the best role models in them for marriage/parenthood.
I think society has made us less of a “commitment-oriented” and more of a “whatever-feels-good” society. That doesn’t help ANYONE.
God’s blessings to you and baby, LibertyBelle!
I wish my husband and I had gotten married sooner. Not only did we wait til we were done with college, but a couple more years because his parents were concerned about him being too young and “making the same mistakes, blahblah blah …” (what the? thanks a lot. they were probably hoping he would ditch the conservative Christian from a blue collar family. I digress …)
But really, many erroneously associate their “unsuccessful” marriages to young age. It could be a factor in one or both individuals being uncommitted, but so can the stubborness and emotional baggage of older age.
Even though we claimed to be committed to each other and acted as such before getting married, being married matters, and we basically told God to hold onto those blessings for awhile.
MotherinTexas, you must be around my age then as I also married around my mid-20’s (24 to be exact) and this October it will be 9 years of wedded bliss for my husband and I.
Marriage is wonderful but it can also be very hard, as any relationship can be. The key is you cannot think it is disposable when the going gets tough. My marriage has had times where it is up and times where it is down but we have worked through the hard times and never allowed ourselves to think we could have an “out”. There is no out. We pledged forever. I think many people who divorce these days (not all, but many) give up too soon. They think it can never get better and that isn’t true. But marriage takes work. The benefits though are well worth the effort.
“much of the problem is college”
what’s wrong with college? There are some of us, such as myself, who want to learn as much as we can, as well as learning to live independently with some help. (such as meal plans!)
Can someone explain to me what a “Convenant” marriage is to a plan old marriage? Are you trying to disintinguish froma a civil marriage/union? As a Catholic I have not heard of this term (perhpas it is because where I live?). From my perspective, using the word “convenant” in front of the word “marriage” is a bit redundant. I am just hoping to get clarity about what people mean, and I don’t mean to sound disapproving of its use.
and once again, Jake-Defender of the Helpless Sexually-Mature Womenfolks, is chased off by WOMEN after attacking Jack. Must suck to get pimplslapped by reality being counter to your own dogma and rationalization techniques so hard on such a regular basis.
LOL xalisae that was a great post.
Tyler I believe a true God-ordained God honoring marriage is a blood covenant between a husband and wife and God that is much more than the “civil” wedding ceremony or a legal contract but once consumated on the wedding night (which btw is a lot more than “having sex”); the one-flesh sexual union creates a blood covenant and a bond physically, emotionally, hormonally, (ever hear of oxytocin-testosterone-vasopressin) but most of all SPIRITUALLY; the joining and full life-long commitment of spirit, soul, heart, mind and flesh to each other, to becoming a family. There are probably others who can state it much more articulately than I can but without the triangle of the covenant between God-husband-wife marriages are not what God created or intended them to be because God IS love and the creator of love and marriage. God is the only one who can teach us what true agape, sacrificial love is and how to love one another. Someone stated to me “Before God created the law, the commandments, kingdoms, governments, kings, or judges he created family and defined it for us,” (read Genesis 1 and 2). Many Christians do not “get it” and the church has even messed this up terribly. I can tell you most people cannot recall the last time a pastor taught on marriage so how can they know what marriage is, what it’s purpose and design is.
I am not saying that others cannot have loving marriages or families but it is not the same.
And congratz, LibertyBelle!
Tyler, I think simply put the Biblical understanding of marriage (and that is where marriage started and where it’s meaning comes from) is that it is a covenant between a man and a woman, with God. A covenant is a serious and binding commitment, even more so than a contract, especially when a contract can be broken for seemingly about any reason lately.
Thanks Prolifer L and Victor Galipi.
Sydney,
Sorry I didn’t answer you before. Yeah, I’d expect we’re the same age based on your posts and other posts. Too cool.
You married in October? That’s when my birthday is! How thoughtful of you :-) *grins* May is our anniversary month. Wanted Easter Season and Mary’s Month, plus there was about 3 other reasons why we chose the day we chose. God really had a hand in it all.
Congratulations to you on your upcoming 9 years! It’s amazing to me that it’s already been that long for us. You are right. Can’t treat marriage as disposable or it’s harder to make it work.
So funny I married in your birth month and you married in my birth month! My birthday is May 29th and my anniversary is Oct 23 (Carla’s birthday).