Baby Munoz put to death by judicial tyranny
UPDATE 1/27, 11:15a: The deceased Munoz baby’s gender and name have been posted on the public Facebook page of Erick Munoz’s local union, Crowley Professional Firefighters Association L-4182:
Rest in peace, Marlise and little Nicole.
[HT: Leslie and Vanessa]
1/26, 5:15p: It’s Terri Schiavo all over again.
Another pro-death judge has inexplicably ordered the death of an innocent, helpless person due to a family’s wishes.
Despite a Texas law requiring that pregnant mothers be kept on life support until their preborn babies are viable, District Court Judge R. H. Wallace on Friday ordered John Peter Smith Hospital to remove Marlise Munoz’s life support by 5p Monday – and the hospital has already complied.
Munoz (pictured above right with her husband Erick and now 15-month-old son) was 33 years old and 18 14 weeks pregnant with her second baby when she apparently suffered a pulmonary embolism on November 26. Her husband and parents have been incomprehensibly fighting ever since to have her taken off of life support – knowing that in the process their child and grandchild would also die.
Their thinking made no sense to me from the get-go. Marlise wanted this baby, and the baby would have been a part of Marlise left alive on this earth. Yet due to a supposedly unwritten (like Schiavo) request not to remain on life support, the family stuck to this, never taking the baby - or the mother’s wishes for her baby – into consideration.
Family statement fails to mention baby
Both mother and baby are reportedly now dead. The family has issued a statement of confirmation – oddly never mentioning the baby who died along with his or her mother:
The Muńoz and Machado families will now proceed with the somber task of laying Marlise Muńoz’s body to rest, and grieving over the great loss that has been suffered. May Marlise Muńoz finally rest in peace, and her family find the strength to complete what has been an unbearably long and arduous journey.
Hello? It’s as if the baby never existed. It just seems there is more to this story than meets the eye.
According to Erick’s attorneys, the baby was “distinctly abnormal…. the lower extremities are deformed to the extent that the gender cannot be determined.”
But medical professionals know you never know until you physically see the baby. And what does that say about the family – working overtime to kill a potentially challenged baby rather than raise the baby, or allow the baby to be adopted.
According to news reports, the baby would have been 23 weeks old tomorrow, the date set by the judge to kill her because, according to court documents, “the fetus gestating inside Mrs. Munoz is not viable.”
Yet the baby would have been considered potentially viable at 23 weeks according to the American Academy of Pediatrics (pg 1407).
As with Terri Schiavo, elected officials also failed this little baby, many of whom are pro-life – but bailed.
There is the legal question whether what just happened was a post 20-week abortion, now illegal in the State of Texas. Hospital personnel terminated this baby’s life, and neither the mother’s life nor health were in danger.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I really hate to pass judgement on people, but what this man did was despicable. What father actively fights for weeks to KILL his child? Especially if this child was the last part of his beloved wife he could have held on to? I can hardly stand to look at him! I am in utter disbelief!
I think the father was in shock and could not comprehend how he was going to be alone and care for two babies. He was afraid that there was something wrong with the baby. I would have hoped the mother of the girl would intervene and say we will help you. It appears that they did not want to take the chance of a deformity. How very sad.
Throw away culture at work. LIfe is cheap.
People were lining up to adopt this baby. I assume Marlise’s parents and his parents and other friends and family would have helped him with the baby. There were tons of options. Nope. This is the new thing–if someone is disabled KILL THEM! There is an outright war on disabled people and it is sickening. It doesn’t matter if the baby was “deformed”–is that some excuse to kill? As if the baby’s supposed handicap was the justification for this murderous act? Disgusting!!
I can’t stand to look at that “father” either. Parents are supposed to protect their children and he FAILED and failed miserable and I am upset, angry and sick over what was done to that poor baby. Poor Mateo has lost his mommy and now the only full biological sibling he would ever had. Thanks dad! THanks grandma and grandpa! Nice to know you all value members of the family.
Comments in the media about this story are ridiculous. I’m reading things like, “This baby died when its mother died.” Oh really? So that’s why the baby still had a strong and normal heartbeat as originally reported?
Heartbeat does not equal “not alive.” I guess stupid people are entitled to their own facts?
There wouldn’t even have been a freaking ISSUE if this child had not still been alive in the womb.
Kel, “alive” and “person” now rely on the same criteria. You must be planned, wanted, have a mother with a functioning brain, you yourself must not have any handicaps (arms and legs appropriate length among other things) your gender must be agreeable to those around you, and you must not present any difficulty whatsoever to anyone who is already born. If you can meet those criteria…congratulations! You are alive and a person and your life has value.
Does anyone remember the Nancy Klein case around 1989?
Five weeks pregnant and the mother of a daughter, Nancy went into a coma following a car accident. Her husband fought for and won in court to have the authority to order his wife aborted. Mrs. Klein’s parents were also anxious to have their daughter aborted. The following are the contrasts between what the media reported and the facts.
1. Media: Mrs. Klein’s life was in danger and the abortion was necessary to save her life and aid in her rehabilitation:
Fact: 4 out of 5 medical experts, including her own physicians, testified the fetus posed no threat to Mrs. Klein’s life. The one “expert” who disagreed was hired by her husband Martin. The “expert” was in fact no expert on coma, had not examined Mrs. Klein, and in fact hadn’t practiced in a number of years. Also if the pregnancy did indeed pose a threat to her, the hospital would not need court authorization to act, any more than it would need authorization to perform an emergency appendectomy.
2. Media: Mr. Klein was a devoted husband who wanted to save his wife.
Fact: The abortion itself, which he insisted on, posed a serious threat to Mrs. Klein’s life. He appeared with Ted Koppel on Nightline the night of the abortion. Wouldn’t a devoted husband insist on being with his wife at this time instead of basking in publicity? Also, when Mrs. Klein did emerge from her coma and while in rehab, he dumped her on her parents and divorced her. Let’s get real. The only person who could tell us what kind of husband he was couldn’t tell us anything at all.
3. Media: Screaming about the “rights” of the husband and family. Feminists up in arms.
Well what about Mrs. Klein’s rights? Did being in a coma mean anyone could do what they wanted to her body without her permission? According to medical records she had planned and wanted the baby.
Nancy was living in a home near her parents the last article I could find and is able to function somewhat independently with assistance. Her husband remarried and moved on. Mrs. Klein lost her normal mobility and independence, her unborn baby, her husband, and a daughter who would be raised by her ex husband and his new wife.
I have never trusted the media since.
Mary I just read an article from the New York Times (I can’t link it on my cell phone) written in 2008 and Mrs. Klein is apparently pro abortion. She has actually made speaking appearances with Bill Baird. Incredible.
As for Dad yes, he is hard to stomach. I smell a lawsuit against the hospital.
You haven’t given the full diagnosis. All indicators are that the fetus simply is not viable and would never survive.
But medical professionals know you never know until you physically see the baby. – what, so now you think birth is a magical journey?
I am so saddened to hear that they removed the ventilator. Why they could not wait a few more weeks and give this child a chance is beyond my comprehension. I know what what it is like to have a spouse on life support for week after week. I know what you go through day in and day out. I know the stress and the ups and downs. But, I can’t imagine being cold blooded.
I am curious if an autopsy will be performed on mother and child and what will be results be.
No, Reality. As a paramedic, it’s a whole new ball game when you can put your hands and eyes on a patient. Duh.
Judicial tyranny? The judge is a PROLIFE Republican judge who followed the law. Isn’t following the law what you people want? My goodness, you are nothing but hypocrites.
And, it seems ironic that most of the sympathy by “prolifers” concerning this tragedy has been with the fetus, not the woman.
By the way, this is not the same as Teri Schiavo. But, believe whatever you want.
The major thing is, however, none of you have standing in any of this. It isn’t your concern.
Now, continue to spread your b.s.
As a paramedic I would have thought you’d know enough to realise that fetal diagnosis in a hospital, with equipment and medical personnel is a bit different to what reports may come through from the scene of an accident you have been called to attend @houstonbombera. Duh.
My goodness, you are nothing but hypocrites.
It isn’t your concern.
Praxedes, glad the judge followed the law. And for that I am happy.
One good thing about this case is that the law will be revised to include situations such as this. Hopefully, the law will be amended to specify that if a pregnant woman is declared to be brain dead, then the law won’t apply. On the other hand if the family member responsible for the brain dead woman wants to keep the brain dead woman alive as an incubator, then the hospital will also comply with that.
Hi phillymiss, 7:24PM
Not too surprising. The woman was brain damaged, she can only know what her family told her, she is dependent on her parents, and does she ever want to believe they or her ex husband would do anything that wasn’t in her best interests? I think the whole situation is so tragic and this poor woman was just being exploited to further the cause.
Mr. Klein recruited Bill Baird in his campaign to abort his child. I remember Baird babbling about Mrs. Klein’s condition like he actually knew what he was talking about. He was referred to as the Father of Abortion Rights. Interesting double standard, how its fine for a man to advocate so fiercely for abortion.
Merit,
Why do you denigrate a pregnant woman by calling her an “incubator”.
Nobody knows the whole story, so don’t judge.
Mary, she was brain dead. To keep her “alive” by artificial means is the denigration.
Merit,
So when a patient is brain dead, its acceptable to strip them of any humanity and refer to them as a machine?
Isn’t keeping them alive by artificial means what makes them a machine? They’re dead. It’s just machines doing what they are no longer capable of doing so that there is a base level physiological activity.
Judge in the Munoz case was appointed by prolife Rick Perry:
http://www.txdirectory.com/online/person/?id=39730
A judge follows the law, yet the “prolifers” whine.
The pro-aborts keep screaming “She was DEAD! Dead! Dead! Dead!!!!!!!!”
Okay, so if she was “dead” it didn’t matter one bit to her that she was on life support. They could have kept this DEAD woman on the machines for TEN more days so that baby could have a shot at life.
“The baby wouldn’t have survived!!!” Oh wow. You can see the future, pro-aborts? So tell me, what numbers are you playing in the lottery?
All I know is that when they turned off the machines and allowed that baby to suffocate inside his mother they ENSURED he wouldn’t survive. Which seems to be what the father and all these screeching pro-aborts wanted. Nothing warms their hearts more than a dead baby as we can see.
Now that mother and baby are DEAD dead…they’re very content. So compassionate. Really.
Merit, you obviously have a great deal of contempt for prolifers and our “b.s.” so why are you here? You certainly aren’t changing any minds.
Reality,
No it doesn’t make them a machine. They are human beings that are kept artificially alive.
“The baby wouldn’t have survived!!!” Oh wow. You can see the future, pro-aborts? So tell me, what numbers are you playing in the lottery? – it ain’t luck of the draw. Science, medicine, equipment and doctors have arrived at the conclusion. You’re very selective about when you will or won’t accept what medicine says.
Which seems to be what the father and all these screeching pro-aborts wanted. – the fetus is unviable. The woman is dead. Her wishes are being met.
Nothing warms their hearts more than a dead baby as we can see. – aha. You just can’t see anything beyond the fetus.
She is brain dead. She has no conciousness. Machines are keeping her body operating on a basic level. Nothing else. Machine.
phillymisd, I don’t expect to change any minds. But, I do try to get some of you to actually think.
That poor woman lost her life – no one was to blame. But that family killed their child/grandchild. If their motive was solely to take her off life support, and not to kill the baby, they could have delivered the baby (right now – even if they couldn’t wait a couple more weeks) and at least given him or her a chance – to live to be adopted. No, these people wanted that baby dead. It’s despicable and disgusting. I’m trying to pray for them, but I’m not there yet.
It’s heartbreaking. Of course we feel sad for the woman, trolls, but we’ve been told she’s been dead a while now. A baby just died today. Let us mourn. What a confused broken world.
Lifejoy, you have no idea if the “baby” was even alive or what condition it was in.
“Lifejoy, you have no idea if the “baby” was even alive or what condition it was in.”
Well now there is no doubt. He’s dead.
Merit ~ What if it were confirmed that the baby appeared healthy? Would this change things for you?
Lifejoy, since there is no such confirmation, why ask? And, there were several problems with the fetus. Losing oxygen for one hour, for example.
putting the word baby in quotes? Oh yes, I know, fetus, F-E-T-U-S. Take out the used in normal conversation word and insert the spelling bee one…
Merit, are you this thrilled about judges in Texas following the law when a convicted murderer is executed?
Navi, so long as the murderer is actually guilty. Unfortunately, there have been at least 15 cases in Texas where the individuals on death row were actually innocent and were cleared with DNA.
hi folks,
Its deja-vous time … hey, Merit and Reality American-orthodox-medicine is not the best medicine, even though Yanks pay by far the most for what they do have!
‘brain-death’ is pronounced when nerve tissue doesn’t record electric activity. This seems rather innocuous until you realize that this small current is the one that exists between neurons … more accurately between the surface of one brain-cell and the surface of another brain-cell [often in a different brain section]. When hurt, does the brain shut down whole sections in hope of recovery?
Like all cells brain cells have all kinds of even smaller charges of communication transpiring between a cell’s surface and its organelles {especially each cell’s nucleus}. A broken cell surface can stop electric currents between cells and be ‘functionally’ dead. However, unless the nucleus itself is dead, the cell itself is not dead and can be repaired by non-orthodox medicine called in Germany, Cell Therapy (zelletharapie in German). It also MAY be restored by using stem cells.
There was also a series of rather bizarre experiments done decades ago by a Chicago neurosurgeon/researcher. He cured many fatal diseases contracted during pregnancy that orthodoxy labels genetic and is surmised as beyond-repair. Anyway, this fellow transplanted adult bone-marrow cells into fetal bones to ‘teach’ proper cell structure. This technique should work for brain-dead people, too – with a wee tweak. Neurons are infamous for little growth in an adult, but grows and is flexible during gestation months. Adult brains should repair with the injection of fetal cells to mime gestation + stem cells + nutrition specifically targeting nerve tissue.
so long as the murderer is actually guilty.
Well, at least you’re consistent. On the other hand, I’m not happy when someone dies because of an unjust law.
Merit, I am an intelligent woman (University of Pennsylvania, cum laude) and can think very well on my own, thank you.
Why they could not wait a few more weeks and give this child a chance is beyond my comprehension.
Because dead babies. No matter what.
Brain death is not easy to diagnose. In order to get a decent evaluation of what the brain is doing, all of the sedating drugs have to be withdrawn.
No one knows if this woman was truly brain dead. It’s a guess, and that guess is quite often incorrect.
People were in a hurry to get the messy mom and the messy baby out of the way, and auxiliary vultures are applauding.
I wonder if any of Munoz’s co-workers expressed that they would be willing to help him in any way to choose life for his little girl or if they remained silent during this crisis.
After all, firefighters are taught to help save lives.
so sad! Here is a link to the story about my friend’s baby born to a birth mom who was on life support: http://www.wjhl.com/story/24486953/as-legal-battle-rages-over-brain-dead-mother-in-texas-baby-born-to-brain-dead-mother-in-tri-cities-celebrates-first-birthday
I thought they said the baby was deformed so bad that they couldn’t determine gender?!
Reality, medicine can’t predict an outcome with 100% certainty. Science/medicine told my friend her baby would have dwarfism and she should abort. She didn’t and the baby didn’t. Science has told people I know “you have weeks to live” but years later they’re still alive. Science says babies at 23 weeks are not viable yet people HAVE been born at 22 and 23 weeks and survived!
Science can’t predict if baby Munoz would have survived. Doctors are often wrong. They can make educated guesses but that doesn’t guarantee their guesses will be correct. Baby Munoz could have survived with high probability if only given another week. Baby Munoz might have survived if delivered yesterday before they cruelly shut off his supply of oxygen.
Why on earth wouldn’t they at least try and save the baby? Nope. Dead baby. Thats all they (and you) want.
Reality, you REALLY did not read what I said – at all. Oh, well, you can’t understand an embryology book either.
@houstonbombera,
Real-stupid-ity is wholly incapeable of any rational thought which contradicts her self fabriacted fantasy.
When the boRAT ignores the constitution she swore an oathe to uphold, protect and defend then what kind of message does that send.
When the boRAT selectively chooses which laws she will and will not enforce based soley on her perferred ideology, then what kind of message does that send to all the other agents of the state?
When the uses the IRS to selectively targets goups she views as her political enemies what kind of message does that send?
When the boRAT authorizes killing accused american citizens without giving the benefit of a trial what kind of message does that send.
This state district judge in Tarrant County, Fort Worth, Texas only followed the dispicable example of the sissy tyrant that is inhabiting the federal housing on Pennsylvania Ave in Washington, D. C.
If the boRAT is the first homosexual president, then does that make moochelle our first bearded lady?
Throughout this entire ordeal, the subject of a a living will crossed my mind. However, since I’m not all that familiar with will in testaments and how a will would affect this particular case, perhaps some of you might know.
IF this woman had a will in testament in place, and I’m assuming it would have to be worded EXACTLY as, “in the event of my death and I’m carrying our unborn child, etc.”….would/could that will have overridden her husband’s wishes and the wishes of her family? Of course no couple would EVER dream of putting something like this in their will-so it is a bit of a far-fetched question….but either way, I’m curious to know how this would have/would affect things that could arrise like this in the future.
I can’t help but notice it is the abortion fans who reduce this wife and mother into a single body part. We see a complicated series of relationships: wife, mother, siblings, father, grandparents, etc.
But I also can’t help feeling a deep nagging suspicion of this “loving husband.” He began the fight to kill his wife and developing child not long after she lost consciousness. Isn’t his tenacity a little odd? Cold-blooded is a phrase I’ve seen in the comments above. But doesn’t this go a little further? The husband was quite relentless at pursuing his wife and child’s demise. Though the child was initially WANTED by the mother, and legally she should have been left on life support long enough for the child to finish his or her prenatal development, the husband DISREGARDED her wishes and the law to AGGRESSIVELY do otherwise. Am I the only one who can’t help thinking of both Susan Smith and Scott Peterson, both crocodile-tear crying individuals who got rid of those inconvenient people in their lives? Things that make you go hmm. I’d like to know a little more about this man and the days leading up to the mother’s November incident that left her incapacitated.
Hi “merit”
“Despite a Texas law requiring that pregnant mothers be kept on life support until their preborn babies are viable…”
The judge did not follow the law but sided with the family. He is an activist judge who has no regard for the law. And apparently, neither do you.
Things that make you go hmm.
You are not alone, 9ek. I read the court order and noticed they had only been married since April of 2013. It made me wonder why this couple didn’t marry before their first child was born or shortly thereafter.
@houstonbombera, you stated As a paramedic, it’s a whole new ball game when you can put your hands and eyes on a patient. – do I need to point out that all the actions and outcomes being discussed are waaaaay beyond the point at which a paramedic may be across things.
So now you think ultrasounds and all that sort of stuff aren’t so useful Sydney M?
Has your grip slipped to such an extent that you are having trouble discerning peoples gender kentheburper?
Oh, please, Thomas R. The judge followed the law. The hospital didn’t. ”Activist” judge? Why? Because he ruled differently than you thought he should? Yes, tell prolife Gov. Rick Perry, who appointed R. H. Wallace to the bench in 2010, that he is an activist judge. The same R. H. Wallace who is a prolife judge? And, your quote is from a very biased source. I suggest you find other sources that aren’t as biased.
The good thing to come out of this is that in the future hospitals in Texas now have some clarity as to the law. And, I bet the Texas legislature will fix the law to specify specific cases. Perhaps next time the wishes of the family won’t be hindered as a result.
BTW, do you have a law degree, Thomas R. The prolife Republican judge does. Isn’t it amazing that people like you want the law followed and when it is, you whine about it.
Anyway, maybe this will ease your bias:
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Brain-Dead-Pregnant-Womans-Husband-Names-Fetus-242302821.html
Here is the article about the author of the bill:
http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/01/23/5509944/texas-law-didnt-anticipate-dead.html
A brain dead pregnant woman wasn’t anticipated when it was authored.
I will say the timing of John Peter Smith Hospital’s allowing life support to end at 11:30 a.m. on Sunday was a very good move. Most of the meddlers who might have showed up at the hospital to protest were probably in church at that time. Of course, Operation Rescue and other organizations who scheduled the 4 p.m. Sunday protest might have hastened the hospital’s timing, eh?
he doesnt’ even deserve to keep the child he already has..what if this kid comes home one day with a broken arm or leg or god forbid isn’t “perfect” whats he gonna do to get rid of that one. hate is a harsh word but i hate eric munoz i have a child with spina bifida and hydrocephalus and all the stuff that comes along with it but you know what as a parent that is what you do deal with it..to me it seems like this whole family just didn’t want to deal with a child that had special needs,,,,i think its so sad he killed this little baby who didn’t ask to be in this situation rip little baby haunt your so called father the rest of his living days or better yet maybe one day you can laugh when he isn’t perfect
annette, you really are pathetic. Who are you to judge him? Maybe you and others should start paying attention to yourselves and your lives instead of trying to meddle in the lives of others. Thank goodness you are really irrelevant in this Munoz situation. When I see what people like you write about this case, I rejoice that justice prevailed. Unfortunately he lost his wife (and yet to be born child). Yet, all you and yours really care about is the “unborn child”.
“A brain dead pregnant woman wasn’t anticipated when it was authored.”
Exactly “merit” – based on this omission the judge needed to err on the side of caution and consider the inconclusive medical oipinion of the baby’s status (no certainty regarding adverse effects, if any, on the baby’s prenatal development and strong heartbeat throughout), but as I said – the judge sided with the family disregarding any reasonable safeguards.
Conscience has a way of unexpectedly catching up with us, I pray that those who disregard life can manage dealing with their conscience when it hits them….
Yes Merit. You rejoice. In death.
Who are you to judge annette? And you are irrelevant to this case. As we all are. Our opinions hardly matter anymore when an innocent child has died BUT we reserve the right to speak our minds. In a prodeath culture we stand for life. One would think you might realize that by now as you come here as much as you can to meddle in our lives.
Please tell me where the justice is for Nicole.
We err on the side of life. There are daddies that wait because they LOVE and WANT their children to make it. And they know that there wives WANTED their children to make it. Against all odds. God bless those that save the lives of their precious little ones in the face of such tragic circumstances. And they are indeed tragic. To lose a pregnant wife? How very sad!! But we do not compound the tragedy of death with more death.
http://www.lifenews.com/2013/11/13/baby-boy-born-after-brain-dead-mother-kept-alive-three-months/
I have questions. And I will ask them.
Why did they say the baby was so deformed they couldn’t tell the gender and then name HER Nicole?
Why did they state it was Marlise’s wish to never be on life support when it is unclear that she wished to never be on life support while pregnant? Was that known? Did she state that?
“I would NEVER want to be on life support. Even if I were pregnant.”
What REALLY happened to Marlise? It is a Michael Schiavo feeling I get. You know. Domestic abuse and all that jazz.
Why didn’t either family mention that precious little baby until after she died?
Marlise WANTED this baby. Why wasn’t that taken into consideration? Her wish was to have her baby.
Did they happen to notice Marlise’s gown moving as Nicole suffocated and kicked and moved?
Were their doctors all proabortion?? Did NOT ONE professional fight for Nicole’s life in that hospital room? In that courtroom?
Why didn’t Nicole have a specialist?
Why weren’t they treated as TWO patients since there were TWO patients?
Has there been an autopsy?
Why the ALL FIRED HURRY to kill this child? A matter of days and Nicole could have been delivered.
Still grieving. Still heartsick. Still longing for the day when we stop killing just because we can.
Thomas R. and Carla, your opinions are noted.
But the reality is the decision of the judge conflicts with your opinions. Do some research on R. H. Wallace, the judge. He was appointed by prolife Rick Perry in 2010. He is a PROLIFE judge (although you may think not in this particular case).
Fact is, this is not Terri Schiavo all over again. Terri Schiavo had the obsession of Sean Hannity for weeks. Terri Schiavo had the Republicans in Congress meeting on a weekend in an emergency session. Terri Schiavo had the likes of Randall Terry and other antiabortion zealots securing air time for their agendas. But, the one huge difference was that Terri Schiavo had been BORN. And the BORN person in the Munoz case was already dead.
Yes, there were a few people in Fort Worth protesting on behalf of Nicole (named after the fact). One was Troy Newman, who never misses a chance for the camera. Perhaps the similarity is neither did Randall Terry when he saw the opportunity with Terri Schiavo.
Your opinion is noted as well.
And found repugnant.
My issue is not with the judge. My issue is with the husband.
PS
I know what activists judges do. Roe V Wade, Doe V Bolton ring any bells for you?
Carla,
The judge is NOT an activist judge. Look, I know being a sore loser will jade your perception of the facts. You obviously want to make yourself feel better about things by saying he is.
And, if you have an issue with the husband, that’s really too bad. This was a family matter. If he had decided to keep his braindead wife on life support, I would have supported his decision.
This really isn’t about you and yours.
The judge’s bio:
http://www.txdirectory.com/online/person/?id=39730
I thought that the baby was so severely deformed that the gender could not be discerned?
Ahhhhh……..yes I am a sore loser. Cause this is like a game of Pictionary. Gotta keep name calling right??
I am not jaded. Still waiting for the facts.
Yeah I still have questions, comments, opinions too. Even on “family matters.” JUST LIKE YOU! GASP!!
Where did I ever say this was about me and mine? Cut and paste.
This is about death.
I have an ISSUE with the intentional killing of innocent preborn human beings. Which seems so obvious to everyone here but you.
I am not reading your links about some judge. But keep linking. It’s cute.
Look, I know being a sore loser will jade your perception of the facts.
Carla, It is all about winning and losing to them. Not about innocent humans or love. Notice how Merit said, “if HE had decided to keep his brain dead wife on life support…” I thought SHE was the one who wanted to be off of life support under all circumstances. Why do you think it would have been up to HIM to allow her to stay on support, Merit.?? His whole argument was based on the fact that was about what SHE wanted. Merit’s misogyny exposed! Surprise there.
After our divorce, my misogynist ex told me that f I ever remarried, because I was his first wife, I would have to be buried with him. Control until the bitter end.
Maybe Nicole’s dad wanted control until the end too. Maybe he didn’t like the doctors, the laws, the prolifers or anyone else telling what HE COULD and COULDN’t DO with HIS wife and HIS child. People are possessions to controllers — and to proaborts.
They want dead babies. No. Matter. What.
Carla and Praxedes, you really want to be the controllers.
Thankfully, you aren’t.
No, Carla, don’t look at the link. Yet believe the judge is “activist”. No wonder very few people in the grand scheme of things take you and others seriously.
And, Praxedes, HE had to speak for his brain dead wife. That’s the law in Texas.
Carla, just because you regret your abortion doesn’t mean that all women do. Perhaps you need true professional help, not superficial help like with religion.
HE had to speak for his brain dead wife
LOL. Then what is the point of her telling him anything regarding what she wanted to happen if she was ever on life support if he gets to make the decision anyway? His whole argument was based on his saying he knew what she wanted.
It keeps getting better, Carla.
You win Merit. Nicole is dead.
We’re getting them stirred up and riled now!
High five, friend.
Gee, Praxedes, why don’t you ask GOD why he didn’t spare Marlise? If she had lived, so would Nicole.
But, this is all part of God’s plan, isn’t it?
And the first born child lost a mother.
And, if she is on life support, can she speak? Of course not. Your comment about “Then what is the point . . .wanted” is kind of ridiculous.
I didn’t want to comment on this because it’s too heartbreaking. I simply don’t understand why the family couldn’t have kept her on life support for just two weeks. Two weeks, you’d have the baby at a threshold where she could maybe have a prayer of survival. Deliver her and give her comfort care if she’s not viable, and then let the mom go as nature intended. I simply don’t understand why the baby could not have even a tiny chance. What would it have hurt anyone? The dad and grandparents would have been able to hold the baby at the very least. :(
I do think it’s not okay to assume Mr Munoz is a domestic abuser or misogynist. There’s been no report of domestic violence on public records. Of course, that doesn’t mean definitely he hasn’t done anything, but I think that’s an accusation that needs some backing before you make it. I think it’s more likely that he and his wife’s parents were grief stricken and told over and over the baby was damaged and disabled and probably wouldn’t live. I think it’s ridiculous that everyone can have compassion for women who abort their possibly disabled babies because of pressure from medical professionals, but none for a dude who makes this decisions under obvious pressure from medical professionals. We ALL know that there’s a problem in the medical community with offering up abortion as a solution for disabled babies, I’m willing to bet the same thing was going on here. “Just let her go, it’s better that way.” Add that to wanting to fulfill his wife’s wishes and you’ve got a very sad situation.
Every couple I’ve talked to who has a child with a disability diagnosed before birth has spoken of the pressure to abort. That solution is put forth first, and the “benefits” talked about. Other solutions for couples who won’t abort are reluctantly talked about later. This is a serious problem.
but I think that’s an accusation that needs some backing before you make it.
Am I missing something? Who here accused Mr. Munoz of being a mycologist and/or an abuser?
Who are you addressing, Jack, regarding your statement above?
There is the legal question whether what just happened was a post 20-week abortion, now illegal in the State of Texas.
No, there isn’t. An abortion is a procedure performed upon a person whom many people consider too insignificant to notice–a pregnant woman. No such procedure was performed on Mrs. Munoz. Her family discontinued artificial life support for an unviable 22-week fetus, as they could have done for an infant born at 22 weeks gestation with a poor prognosis.
It is silly and pretentious for anyone other than Erick Munoz to put on airs about knowing Mrs. Munoz’s “wishes for her baby,” since no one knows what conversations they may have had about how they would respond to an unviable pregnancy.
Did they happen to notice Marlise’s gown moving as Nicole suffocated and kicked and moved?
Or did they notice an absence of fetal movements as the pregnancy developed, indicating, among other things, that the fetus was not getting enough oxygen in the first place?
What REALLY happened to Marlise?
Was Mr. Munoz observed twirling a black mustache in court? Dancing a jig in a hospital corridor? Laughing maniacally over his wife’s body? We have a right to know these things!
If Mrs. Munoz had gone to the ob/gyn for a checkup and discussed her unborn baby and was taking prenatal vitamins and making plans for the new baby, there is a record that she wanted Nicole to be born alive.
“And the first born child lost a mother.”
Merit: the first-born child could have gained a sibling as the final expression of the mother’s love (and father’s love for his wife). A death does not have to be dishonored with another. The judiciary had the bluprint to do the right thing but acted otherwise.
This route you chose does nothing for the expression of our humanity but enslaves our species to inhumane treatment of our progeny and our place on this planet is constantly minimized.
As the highest form of intelligent life, it is our responsibility as a species to instill a culture of life, one that transmits to future generations the value of life as the biggest gift and one that glorifies our species amongst the stars.
Chosing the death of his offspring as this father did, speaks to the culture of death – the darkest human nature indeed. Those who rejoice in death and call for more death will eventually be left with a society so savage, it will hunt them daily. Live and allow the unborn the same opportunity.
I think there are implications in several people’s comments Prax. I think people need to remember that there’s a lot of pressure and grief involved here, and I want Mr Munoz to feel comfortable reaching out to pro-life groups for help with his grief if he ever comes to regret his decision. Which he won’t do if implications that he’s a bad guy are plastered all over pro-life blogs.
I think we need to remember that Marlise and Nicole are not the only people here who need prayers and compassion. Her husband and parents, and especially their living child, need that too.
Two weeks, you’d have the baby at a threshold where she could maybe have a prayer of survival. Deliver her and give her comfort care if she’s not viable, and then let the mom go as nature intended. I simply don’t understand why the baby could not have even a tiny chance. What would it have hurt anyone? The dad and grandparents would have been able to hold the baby at the very least.
+1
For example I see some people have said that he should lose custody of his born child, along with some other mean assumptions and insinuations. I don’t think that’s correct or productive. We have many post-abortive parents here, people who contribute to the death of their unborn child can still be good parents, especially if people reach out to them and give them help and compassion.
Jack is addressing me. Of course. :)
I am not accusing anyone of anything. I did not say Mr. Munoz abused his wife. That would be an accusation.
My question was WHY was Mr. Munoz in such an all fired hurry to have his baby killed? I can ask questions right? And yes I know all about Michael Schiavo and this smells so much like that to me. Sooooo what?
The ACT of killing innocent preborn children is heinous!!! The ACT is horrifying to me!! And if/when Mr. Munoz seeks recovery for the death of his child, prolifers will be there. Thought that went without saying that we can separate the ACT from the PERSON.
As it stands, one has to feel the weight of their part in causing the death of an innocent child and then repent of their actions.
Dearest Jim,
I don’t believe I mentioned that I had an abortion on this thread. Which leads me to believe you are some kind of Jill Stanek lurker? Or perhaps you googled me and found out that YES I did indeed have an abortion and YES indeed I have found recovery and healing after abortion and oh YES I am a prolife speaker!!!
You have done your homework. Good job!!
Jack,
Some of us are still grieving since this JUST HAPPENED! Some of us are in the anger stage of our grief over the death of this precious innocent child named Nicole. Some of our hearts are aching over her and the fact that nobody seemed to FIGHT FOR HER LIFE!! Not even her own DADDY!! Some of us want to honor her life and her memory and grieve. Grief takes time. Some of us need to move through the feelings that we feel in the face of evil and injustice.
And some of us come here to gloat and celebrate and rejoice in death.
I thought he might be addressing me, Carla; Jack has totally misinterpreted what I have said a time or two so I thought I better ask him.
I’ve read through the comments and no one here accused Nicole’s father of being an abuser/misogynist (However, because Mr. Munoz fought tooth and nail for Nicole’s mom to be taken off of life support and this action directly caused Nicole’s death, Mr. Munoz could be referred to with other not so endearing words, imho.)
Pointing out that someone doesn’t have a public record of being an abuser means nothing to those of us who know abusers who have never been held accountable.
At least there is a very public record of Mr. Munoz’s behaviors now. His choices have caused many people to not trust him. If my children were small and/or disabled, I wouldn’t allow him around them.
I wasn’t solely addressing you Carla. I was addressing everyone who I see making insinuations and implications about this guy.
In a hurry? Look at what the hospital is telling him. His wife is brain dead and his child is non-viable. That’s the information that he is acting on. He was told the baby was developing incorrectly and was deprived of oxygen and wouldn’t live, it appears. From all appearances it seems that he and her parents were trying to put their family members to rest after being told there is no hope. He also is trying to respect his wife’s wishes for end of life care. I don’t see him in a hurry to kill anyone. It seems as though he believed them both to already be dead.
If you want to ask questions go ahead. But I don’t think they are helping matters. I see him more as a Jennifer Moribelli than a Carhart.
Have a good day Merit!!
As the controller of ALL THE THINGS I will make that sun go down and turn day into night!! Watch me.
People on this thread have said they have no compassion for him (and her parents who were involved, I don’t know why people keep forgetting they felt the same way). Someone said his child should be taken from him. And Carla has made implications by wondering if he Is like Michael Schiavo, which is a completely different situation. You have said that maybe he just wanted control. I don’t misinterpret anything.
I realize no records doesn’t mean that there was no abuse. I still think that’s a hefty insinuation to make, especially considering the other very public pressure this man and his wife’s parents were under.
How can I “help” matters now Jack? The deed is done. The killing was carried out. “Help or no help” Carla gets to type. Just like you and Merit and Jim and Prax. Don’t agree? That is par for the course here.
You are sounding quite a bit like Reality. “non viable” “deprived of oxygen” ”wouldn’t live” You are making quite a few assessments and assumptions and implications that I haven’t come across in all of my reading about this case. How do you know what the hospital told him? Link please.
Nicole’s heart was beating. That means life. And with life there is always hope. It seems as though he believed them both to already be dead?? Says who? You? Were they dead? Nicole was alive until they killed her. We err on the side of life. We do not FEAR the reality of a child that was deprived of oxygen for an hour. We allow her to grow and do a csection and not be AFRAID of what she may look like or be like. We do not intentionally kill because someone MIGHT be disabled.
From all appearances? From all appearances to me it seems that a Texas LAW is in place to err on the side of LIFE for just such situations as this. A pregnant mother on life support is to be left on life support until the child can be delivered. We are talking a matter of DAYS!! And what would it hurt to have delivered Nicole and let nature take its course????
HOW did Marlise come to be on life support? What happened in that house?
THOSE are valid questions that I do not have answers for Jack.
I am hardly alone in my wondering you know.
Thank you for letting me process ALL of this. The way I will allow you to process it all too.
And one day I will think of Nicole just like I think of Terri Schiavo and grieve for precious life lost.
We can help by making pro-life groups a safe place for Mr Munoz and other husbands and parents who found themselves in this position and made the wrong decisions. Nicole died and we can’t change that. I hope you’re right and she’s in heaven now. But what we can do is make it known to Mr Munoz and others in his position that there is healing and love here, and that he can be an advocate for other husbands faced with similar situations to make the correct choice. I don’t believe we can do this.
And now you’re just using insults. Did i say. “Jack thinks the baby is non-viable, etc”? No, I was quoting what has been released from the hospital.. THEY said the baby was non-viable, not me. Like I said, I believe the proper course of action was to keep her body on life support for a few more weeks and deliver the baby before letting Mrs Munoz go. You’re deliberately twisting my words to try and make me agree with you and that’s not okay.
And for goodness sakes, stop taking “I don’t agree with your statements and think they are wrong” as preventing you from doing anything. Say whatever you want. If I disagree I will say so. We are both adults here and no one is being prevented from doing anything.
What’s been released is that Marlise had a blood clot, I’m not a doctor, but I don’t believe that’s something that generally comes from domestic abuse. Sometimes blood clots happen during pregnancy.
No Jack I’m not.
Am I characterized by that behavior? Do I come here to twist people’s words and make them agree with me? Is that what I have done in the 6 years I have been moderating here?
You sounded like you had the inside scoop and I want to know the inside scoop.
Was Nicole “non viable?” She was just days away from being considered “viable” I guess. And now we will NEVER know. Because she was killed. And that is that.
Prolife groups are a safe place. NOTHING changes that.
I am sickened to the core by this whole thing. Truly sickened and horrified that it has happened AGAIN and there is nothing I can do about it.
An innocent human being has died. Her name is Nicole. Marlise her mother WANTED her to live.
And this whole thing breaks.my.heart.
And yours Jack. I know that.
“Am I characterized by that behavior? Do I come here to twist people’s words and make them agree with me? Is that what I have done in the 6 years I have been moderating here? ”
No, but you have completely (I don’t know if deliberately) twisted my words here. When I am speaking of what the hospital has released, I’m not saying that’s MY opinion, especially when I clearly stated what my opinion was (that the baby should have been allowed to reach a few more weeks of development and delivered, even if she couldn’t live she should have had a shot). It’s ridiculous to act like quoting something, when I very clearly stated that it’s not my opinion, means I am “like Reality”. I’m honestly sick of people doing that to me and I refuse to allow it to happen anymore. People can read my actual words instead of trying to accuse me of things I haven’t said and don’t support.
“You sounded like you had the inside scoop and I want to know the inside scoop.”
I’m directly quoting what was released. Which is all over the place, what the family and hospital have said about the baby and mother’s condition.
“Was Nicole “non viable?” She was just days away from being considered “viable” I guess. And now we will NEVER know. Because she was killed. And that is that.”
Yes. And again, I didn’t say the baby was non-viable. The hospital did. I was pointing out the information that the hospital released, and Mr Munoz’s attorney’s released, and the assumption that I am making is that is what Mr Munoz was going by. He was being told these things about his wife and child. Just like Jennifer Morbelli was given an adverse fetal diagnosis and decided to abort because of that. People make bad decisions under the pressure of “non-viability” and “deformity” and “disability”. They need compassion regardless of any rage and grief we all feel over the death of their children. Jennifer Morbelli lost her life and child, and Errick Munoz lost his wife and child. But only one of these two adults gets the compassion that we should have for all.
And of course it breaks my heart. That’s why I feel strongly that we need to start working on preventing the next situation NOW. Which can be assisted by offering compassion and love towards those who made the wrong decisions, because they will be great people to have on our side for the next time this situation comes up.
What’s been released is that Marlise had a blood clot, I’m not a doctor
Has the autopsy been released?
but I don’t believe that’s something that generally comes from domestic abuse.
Someone can die from a car accident . This doesn’t mean that they might not have also been a victim of domestic abuse.
No one will ever make again make me believe that there is anything wrong with wondering and asking questions. If you want to call it accusing and insinuating, go right ahead Jack. A child has died and I will wonder all I want and express my doubts if I so choose. Terrible secrets are kept when people are bullied into silence.
No one accused Mr. Munoz of abuse/misogyny but you claimed someone did, Jack. Please point out where and who accused him of this otherwise stop twisting what people are talking about. We have the right to discuss issues and you need to stop putting words in other people’s mouths.
Prax, Carla asked WHY Marlise was in the hospital. I said that what’s been released is that she has a blood clot (pulmonary embolism). I mentioned that particular health issue isn’t something I’ve heard of coming from domestic abuse. If you want to take that as me saying that there’s no way she was ever abused, go right ahead, but that’s not what I said.
Nobody is bullying anyone, except people are bullying me by telling me I sound like Reality because I quoted what the hospital said. I can express what I think is right, no one is required to follow it. You cannot make me be silent by making accusations towards me that are not correct.
I have not twisted anyone’s words. You said it’s possible that he was just looking for control and compared that to your very abusive ex. That is what you said. Carla wondered if there was abuse possibly going on and said it reminded her of Michael Schiavo. That is what she said. Another commenter said his living child should be taken away from him. That is what that commenter said. Other people said they have no compassion for him. That is what they said. I have not twisted any of those words, I have directly quoted them. I see these things as insinuations and damaging. You do not. Whatever. We’re adults here who have different viewpoints, you’re not a victim of my opinion.
This is what was said by the hospital and the lawyers regarding viability:
“at the time of this hearing, the fetus gestating inside Mrs. Munoz is not viable.”
Key words: ”at the time of this hearing.” I don’t believe the father was ever told that Nicole might not be viable down the road. But correct me if I am wrong, Jack.
He was being told these things about his wife and child.
I believe he wanted Nicole’s mom off of life-support before he was told anything firm about the condition of Nicole. Correct me if I’m wrong Jack.
People make bad decisions under the pressure of “non-viability” and “deformity” and “disability”.
For real? Uh, I don’t believe the father was pressured. He is the one who did the pressuring. He hired lawyers and pushed a court order. But again, correct me if I’m wrong. He had half the country willing to help him with his daughter whether she was special needs or not.
People can read my actual words
We sure can.
“Marlise Munoz was 14 weeks pregnant when she collapsed in November from what doctors believe was a pulmonary embolism”
Last I read, it’s what the doctors believed. Has the autopsy been released?
You said it’s possible that he was just looking for control and compared that to your very abusive ex. That is what you said. Carla wondered if there was abuse possibly going on and said it reminded her of Michael Schiavo. That is what she said
Right. In regards to abuse/misogyny, YOU Jack said and I quote, “that’s an accusation that needs some backing before you make it.”
But the fact is that nobody here made the accusation that YOU SAID was made.
I don’t think issues surrounding homosexuality are the only issues I will have to stop discussing with you. I really don’t like holding discussions with people who re-write history. And this discussion is all here in black and white.
That’s why I said that is what’s been released. I don’t see how it’s appropriate to speculate yet on her death, do we even know if an autopsy has been performed yet?
“For real? Uh, I don’t believe the father was pressured. He is the one who did the pressuring. He hired lawyers and pushed a court order. But again, correct me if I’m wrong. He had half the country willing to help him with his daughter whether she was special needs or not.”
And Jennifer Morbelli made an abortion appointment, flew to another state, and underwent a procedure to kill her 33 week old daughter in her womb, even knowing she would have to go through labor anyway, she chose to actively kill the baby before birthing her. But, I still think she was scared and pressured with the way our country and many obgyns view disabled babies. Many other women have chosen to abort possibly disabled babies even with support and offers of adoption as well. It is a problem with the way our culture views the disabled. I believe that it’s quite possible Munoz was under the same kind of pressure. You don’t for whatever reasons, I suspect some but I am not you so I cannot speculate publicly.
““at the time of this hearing, the fetus gestating inside Mrs. Munoz is not viable.”
Key words: ”at the time of this hearing.” I don’t believe the father was ever told that Nicole might not be viable down the road. But correct me if I am wrong, Jack.”
The lawyers also released information that the baby was “deformed” or “disabled”. Do you think Munoz performed an ultrasound himself to determine this, or did the hospital? Do you believe there is pressure in the medical community to abort disabled unborn babies? I do. And I think this affects the fathers just as much as the mothers. Compassion for ALL.
” But the fact is that nobody here made the accusation that YOU SAID was made.
I don’t think issues surrounding homosexuality are the only issues I will have to stop discussing with you. I really don’t like holding discussions with people who re-write history. And this discussion is all here in black and white.”
Ah, I should have written “insinuation” instead of “accusation’, that is what I meant. I apologize for the wrong word choice.
And again, like we’ve discussed previously, our issues communicating are not solely on me. Everything is not my fault.
Ms. Munoz will be cremated and there will be no regular funeral because of the fear of protesters being there. I don’t blame him. Even after death antiabortion protesters can be disgusting:
http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/tarrant/Erick-Munoz-discusses-his-familys-heartbreaking-ordeal-242326941.html
This is what you Jack said, “What’s been released is that Marlise had a blood clot ”
This is what the hospital said, “from what doctors believe was a pulmonary embolism”
Big difference. You’re talking as if a blood clot is fact in spite of it not being released as fact.
Do you think Munoz performed an ultrasound himself to determine this
What would make you think I thought this? The question is, did Munoz want his wife off of life support before he knew if Nicole had any disabilities or not? Your twisting and diverting again. Or if you are being sarcastic and just downright nasty to me, you’re not being compassionate, Jack.
You bet compassion for ALL. Compassion means holding people accountable too. Not just giving them a free pass and a pat on the back for poor choices and behaviors. Including twisting words and lying.
Now I’m holding you accountable. I’m done discussing this issue with you. I’m saying no thank you to the twist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=im9XuJJXylw
Twist away. Maybe Merit will join you. Have fun.
“Big difference. You’re talking as if a blood clot is fact in spite of it not being released as fact.”
No, I have not said this. At all. I said “what has been released”. That is all we know of the situation. I’m not going to make wild speculations on how she died unless I have more information. The only thing I know about her coma and death is that the doctors released that she probably had a blood clot and she was taken off life support, and they believed she was brain dead. That’s it. I’m not going to speculate further on what caused her death because I don’t believe it’s charitable when there’s no further information, especially if her death is going to be blamed on someone.
“What would make you think I thought this? The question is, did Munoz want his wife off of life support before he knew if Nicole had any disabilities or not? Your twisting and diverting again. Or if you are being sarcastic and just downright nasty to me, you’re not being compassionate, Jack.”
I don’t know if he wanted her off life support or not. I do know that she was only 14 weeks pregnant at the time when she first went into the hospital, I was not in the room so I do not know what he was told or when he was told she was brain dead. I do know, a nurse told me this, that many doctors believe brain dead women cannot carry their babies any further along and have them develop, so that might be something that he was told as well. It’s something to consider at least.
I am not being sarcastic. I am trying to be very clear. I am not trying to be nasty. I perceive you are being nasty to me, I don’t know if that’s deliberate though.
” You bet compassion for ALL. Compassion means holding people accountable too. Not just giving them a free pass and a pat on the back for poor choices and behaviors. Including twisting words and lying.”
I am not lying or twisting words or diverting. I am trying to be as clear as possible. But you are really hurting my feelings because you are going for personal attacks and sarcasm and accusing me of things that I am not trying to get across and didn’t intend. I apologized for using the wrong word choice. If I’m your pro-life ally, you could try, for once, giving me the benefit of the doubt instead of accusing me of lying or twisting words. I tried to state very clearly what was said and how I disagree, without personally attacking you. I apologized for using the word “accusation” instead of “implication” or “insinuation”, which was what I meant to get across.
“Twist away. Maybe Merit will join you. Have fun.”
This is bullying. You are anti-bullying, but you are trying to bully me by comparing me to Merit. I perceive this as an attempt to make me feel bad instead of “holding me accountable”.
This is something you continually do when someone disagrees with you. You’ve done it to me and several others over your time commenting here, and you’ve been called out several times. I have not made a personal attack on you, I have disagreed with some of your comments and interpretations of the situation. It is gaslighting to try and tell me things went down in a way that they did not. Gaslighting is not a kind thing to do to someone. Like I said, our issues communicating are not solely on me, I am not the only person at fault when we bump heads. We have discussed before that we will try to understand each other better, but I don’t perceive you doing that, I perceive you are trying to tear me down because I disagree with you. I don’t think this is okay.
“Even after death antiabortion protesters can be disgusting”
and the same can be said about pro-abort rallies and their “pro-choice” participants:
http://hotair.com/archives/2013/12/03/video-pro-abortion-protest-against-catholics-in-argentina-as-classy-as-youd-expect/
do you like what you see?
(I can upload clips from the US from various pro-abort antics for you too)
“Ms. Munoz will be cremated and there will be no regular funeral because of the fear of protesters being there. I don’t blame him. Even after death antiabortion protesters can be disgusting: ”
When have you EVER seen people protest the funeral of a woman who died in an abortion or with her child? Ever? I can’t remember seeing a single instance. I know that some have protested the funerals of abortionists, which isn’t something I agree with, but for women who died? I think you’re completely making things up unless you post some proof.
Wow, Thomas R., such a defense of antiabortion zealots.
Concerning the case at hand, I guess Troy Newman and others will now just have to move on to another photo op. I won’t go as far to claim Newman and others are Westboro Lite, but maybe others will.
Deluded “prolifer”, Westboro comes to mind.
I was just responding to your statement but there is no proof whatsoever you can come up with that we are disgusting in our demonstrations or that, as Jack stated, we protest at funerals. Stop making stuff up. On the other hand, the various clips from pro-abort rallies speak for themselves…
Thomas R., it seems the persons making things up are you and others. To wit, “activist judge”. Among others.
Merit, please post some evidence that pro-lifers regularly harass people at the funerals of women who died in abortions or otherwise.
Oh, I just saw your edit. Lol, Westboro? You think they are part of the pro-life movement? Hahaha. They dislike us just as much as they dislike everyone else. I’m sure they’d particularly dislike me at least. Please post evidence that people in the mainstream pro-life movement (not random religious groups that may or may not oppose abortion) protest the funerals of women who died in abortions.
For real? Uh, I don’t believe the father was pressured. He is the one who did the pressuring. He hired lawyers and pushed a court order. But again, correct me if I’m wrong. He had half the country willing to help him with his daughter whether she was special needs or not.
I agree. I don’t understand why the headline says that Nicole Munoz died because of “judicial tyranny.” It was her husband and family who wanted life support discontinued.
Yes phillymiss I believe this is the fault of the family. But I believe they were pressured and influenced by a culture that disregards disabled babies as throwaways and treats them as “potentials” that will never be. When it’s a woman aborting, people tend to agree with me. In this situation apparently they see things differently. I believe we need to reach out Munoz and his wife’s parents and hopefully they will see what a mistake was made, so they can help prevent such situations in the future. And there really needs to be a discussion on how this culture thinks of unborn babies who might be disabled.
Oh and the medical community is bad about the pressuring for abortions and such for disabilities. I’ve seen it time and time again and have talked to many couples, who were under inordinate pressure to abort when they receive a poor fetal diagnosis. Some of them buckled under the pressure and got the abortion and regretted it ever since. I don’t know why it’s outside the realm of possibility that this man was pressured like that, especially since we know the hospital talked about non-viability, and talked about oxygen deprivation, and that his lawyers released statements that Nicole was “deformed”. I don’t know why the first thought has to be “he might be [insert bad things]” instead of the very real possibility that he was under a lot of pressure because of this.
I agree that proabortion doctors push abortion. The pressure might have been intense. Folks EVERYWHERE pressuring him.
But Daddy caved.
Westboro is a cult.
I will denounce their hatred and bigotry everysingletime.
And applaud The Patriot Riders who shelter the families from this cult with themselves and the American flag and their motorcycles. :) They allow families to grieve.
Yes, Carla, he caved just like thousands of women who had poor prenatal diagnoses did. It’s horribly depressing.
I am willing to bet money that he was told right from the get go that the baby was likely to be damaged, and that he heard horror stories about how much his child would be in pain, and how her life would be if she even lived, etc etc. I am guessing his fervor was due to this fear of his child suffering and wanting his wife’s wishes to not be on life support. Like anyone else in a traumatic situation, he was vulnerable to influence and pressure just like other people who were talked into, manipulated, and pressured into causing or assisting the deaths of their disabled unborn children. Of course I don’t know this for sure, this is simply a speculation of mine. I’ve seen this pressure towards couples and women with poor fetal diagnoses before, it’s unreal how much abortion is pushed, particularly for fatal diagnoses. I am willing to give Munoz the benefit of the doubt, until further information becomes available. The stuff I’ve seen from him doesn’t strike me as an abuser, it strikes me as a grieving father who made a bad decision because he was trying to do the right thing.
Good grief Jack.
THIS daddy is NOT a post abortive woman though is he??? Come on man.
His wife is. If she wanted her baby girl to live and her wishes were not respected SHE IS a post abortive woman. She was forced to abort.
Hey guess what? I know couples that were pressured every single time they had an appt. Every single time they were told the horror stories. Every single time they were told there was no hope. And they told the staff to shove it. THEY WOULD NOT ABORT THEIR BABY!!!
He’s not a post-abortive woman. He’s a man who lost his wife and child. By his own doing, sure, but we don’t tell women who lost their babies through non-coerced abortions that they cannot grieve. And we have empathy for them even when they made a terrible decision. I know you’d be the first to say something if people were saying untoward things about women in those situations.
Let’s try to look at things from his point of view. The woman he loved, had two children with, he is told she’s brain dead. She’ll never come back to him, the doctors say. They say she’s essentially dead already, she’s simply being kept alive by machines. They tell him that their daughter was deprived in oxygen and will probably be severely disabled. That’s factual. I’m willing to bet that there were horror stories and other pressures involved as well. You certainly can’t deny that people loooovvvveee to talk about how horrible life is for disabled people and how it’s “kinder” to “put the baby out of it’s misery”, this is common talk when there is a poor prenatal diagnosis.
Now, we don’t know what was said between Marlise’s parents and him, but we do know that they seem to be on board with removing life support. So, in his time of need, where he lost the woman he was going to spend the rest of his life with while she was carrying their second child, even her parents didn’t encourage him to keep the baby alive. It’s possible that no one he was close to, and none of the doctors, gave him hope and I’m willing to bet that many of them fed him that line of how it’s better not to birth the baby and have her suffer. So, now this man, who has no one close to him encouraging him and giving him hope, has to make the decision to take her off or keep her on life support, when everyone around him has agreed it’s “for the best” to let the baby die with her mother. You also have to consider that Marlise didn’t want life support, but I doubt they discussed it during pregnancy, so all this grieving husband and father has to go on is that she wouldn’t have wanted to be kept alive with machines.
Now, with all those factors, and bearing in mind this was an extremely traumatic situation (losing your spouse always is, particularly during pregnancy, which is supposed to be a happy time), can you still feel no compassion for him? What if it did go down like I have suggested? Don’t you think he deserves any sympathy at all? I DON’T support him not allowing his baby to be born. I think that was a horrible thing for him to do and I grieve the death of his child just as much as the death of the mother. But I refuse to assume the worst of him and not give him the benefit of the doubt. Men are not all unfeeling machines. Men are capable of being influenced, coerced, talked into things, and manipulated, especially during such a traumatic event like your wife going into a coma that the doctors say she will never recover from, especially when she’s carrying your baby.
I refuse to believe that it’s okay to have sympathy and concern for all women who abort, even those who fly to other states to access abortion, even when it’s for frivolous reasons and nothing to do with health or safety, but none for a man dealing with a horrible event like his wife’s supposed brain death while she’s carrying their baby.
I don’t know if he was influenced and treated the way I suspect. I wouldn’t be remotely surprised given our culture’s view of disabled people, and encouragement of aborting babies with poor prenatal diagnoses. But until further information presents itself, I’m going to view him like I view women who abort because of poor fetal diagnoses. With compassion and empathy, even though I think they made a horrible choice. I believe both men and women deserve the benefit of the doubt and compassion, not just women.
Oh, and NONE of this means that I think his choice was correct. None of this means that I don’t grieve for Marlise and her baby. I think there are two true victims here for sure, the mother and the baby. I just simply think that there is room for compassion for Erick Munoz, and that I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt and have empathy for his situation unless further information comes forward that shows that he is something other than a normal husband and father who made a terrible decision under a great amount of pressure.
And seriously Carla:
“Hey guess what? I know couples that were pressured every single time they had an appt. Every single time they were told the horror stories. Every single time they were told there was no hope. And they told the staff to shove it. THEY WOULD NOT ABORT THEIR BABY!!!”
Yes, some people do stand up to the pressure and that’s GREAT! All those who lived through such an experience should become pro-life speakers in my opinion. But there are those couples and single women who don’t stand up to the pressure. I know you have sympathy for those women, but none for the husbands? None for a guy who’s been told his wife is brain dead and his child probably has no chance, and if the child lives they might be very hurt? I’ve seen you defend and support women who abort under NO pressure at all! How can you not extend any of that compassion to this person?
This MAN was to stand up for his wife and his child. This MAN was a husband and a father and was supposed to do everything he could to save!! Men are to STAND against the proabort spew and be strong and do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to save!!! To try and save. To save the life of his little girl.
What if he had been the protector of his wife and child? What if he said that he would protect his daughter in memory of his wife and that he would do everything he could so that no harm could come to her? What if he had let Nicole grow and REFUSED? What if promised himself and his wife that he would protect this innocent child and do everything he could to let her keep growing inside mommy? What if he hadn’t challenged the law in court??
He went to court. He fought the law. He got what he wanted.
And one day he will feel the full weight of it.
Compassion? I have compassion. Compassion for Marlise. Compassion for Nicole. Compassion for what they went through.
Goodnight Jack.
Yes, he did not do what husbands and fathers are supposed to do and protect his child from harm, and protect his wife from having her baby die inside her while she died. He failed as a man in that regard, yes he did. He failed at the most important part of being a father and husband. Men make mistakes and horrible decisions all the time, just like women do. That still doesn’t mean they don’t deserve compassion and empathy anyway. He needs to recognize what he has done wrong and heal from it, and hopefully use his mistake to help others avoid what he did. That is what I hope for him, that’s the only thing that will make something good come out of this whole mess.
I still have compassion for him, and saying over and over again how he failed and made a horrible decision (this I realize and I agree) isn’t going to make it go away.
In the above article, it is stated: ”Despite a Texas law requiring that pregnant mothers be kept on life support until their preborn vabies are viable, District Court Judge R. H. Wallace on Friday ordered John Peter Smith Hospital to remove Marlise Munoz’s life support by 5p Monday – and the hospital has already complied.”
Perhaps the hospital did follow the law according to that quote–isn’t the fetus viable at 23 weeks like “prolifers” allege viability is? So, they kept the woman on life support until viability, then removed it.
Where are you men of courage?
What would you have done?
I’ve seen you defend and support women who abort under NO pressure at all! How can you not extend any of that compassion to this person?
I believe the subtext here is that pregnant women lack the capacity understand right and wrong and don’t have the strength of character to follow through if, by random chance, they reach the right decision. Men, on the other hand, are endowed with discernment and moral autonomy and must be held accountable.
Or, as Carla might say,
HOW can a mommy KNOW that she DOESN’T have to kill her precious BABY, if the daddy isn’t a real MAN??? A REAL man saves a mommy from making bad decisions.
Hi again Jack,
We are good. I can have a respectful dialogue and still disagree with you. :)
He was wrong. He was wrong. And someday he will realize it and I pray that his broken heart leads him to care and hope and help.
Yeah LisaC.
Put some more words in my mouth.
I don’t bother with you anymore. pppppphhhhhhtttttt
Hey Carla –
“HOW did Marlise come to be on life support? What happened in that house?” I think I saw you post something like this elsewhere too, something whose main effect was that women her age don’t just collapse on the floor; but I can’t remember – I’ve been very ill lately and am only just really getting back to my senses; forgive me. Anyway I meant to say that sometimes women, even young healthy women, DO just collapse. It happened to my friend’s mother when I was a girl. The woman was healthy – she ate well, she walked several miles a day, etc. She was in her mid-30s. She appeared fine that evening – she went to dinner with my mother and a couple other friends while the kids were in a class together, and the only thing that was “off” was that she sent her drink back to the kitchen because she thought it tasted strange – not something that anything thought much of at the time, but after the fact it was all anyone could think to point to as evidence that something was wrong. She picked her daughter up from class, they met the dad as he was leaving work, and they all got on their usual bus uptown to their apartment. About halfway through the bus ride, my friend’s mother just slumped over; at first my friend thought it was a joke or something, but she realized quickly that something was wrong so she screamed for the driver to stop, and she and her father ran to a nearby payphone to call an ambulance. They waited on the corner with her mother, who was completely unconscious and immobile, but by the time the ambulance arrived her mother was already dead. An autopsy was inconclusive; they basically never really could definitely state why she died. The police did get involved for a minute and question her husband, look for evidence of abuse etc, but they found nothing, because there was nothing to find. She just…died. Something went wrong and she died. It was horrible, but it can happen.
“Oh, I just saw your edit. Lol, Westboro?”
Good you pointed this fallacy out Jack! Merit is unfortunately desperately attempting to paint us, mainstream pro-lifers, into some kind of horrible militants. She will not provide any evidence as we insist. There is none.
Alexandra,
I don’t expect answers to my questions. I just type out what I want to type and wonder how did it get from point A to point B and as it stands today 2 precious and innocent people made in God’s image are dead. And I grieve.
I try not to make statements like this “women her age just don’t collapse.”
Specifically what happened to Marlise? I won’t ever know.
But now that I threw out all of the questions I have and have moved through much of the processing…… I will forever remember this as heartbreaking.
Heartbreaking.
Hi Carla and Alexandra,
I understand she had a pulmonary embolism. A clot formed somewhere in her body and travelled to her lungs. It happens. Just as someone, young or old, can develop an abnormal heart rhythm, or have an undiagnosed brain or aortic aneurysm rupture, and collapse and die.
We err on the side of life.
ww.lifenews.com/2005/08/03/nat-1507/
“Where are you men of courage? What would you have done?”
Did you direct this at me or someone else? You can’t be directing this at the pro-life guys here, especially the ones who have repeatedly stated they would have tried to keep the baby alive and delivered when she could have as much chance at life as possible.
And you already know that my ex-wife nearly died giving birth to our younger child, I’ve talked about giving the doctors permission to give her an emergency c-section to save her life and our baby when my ex was basically unconscious and certainly wasn’t coherent. It was a difficult pregnancy all around, I’ve also mentioned that she had so much bleeding, cramping, and pelvic pain early on, right after we found out she was pregnant, that the doctors were worried it might be an ectopic pregnancy (thank God it was not). But if she had ended up in a coma while still carrying my daughter of course I would have gone with the option that gave her and my child the best chance of life, even if my kid would end up with disabilities. But I do know something about how helpless and insane you feel watching the woman you love, pregnant with your child, die before your eyes (though they were able to save my wife and she is just fine and healthy and our child is too). So yeah, I have some sympathy for Munoz, I’d rather be in a war zone than watch someone I love go through that again. I can’t imagine his grief and confusion at the time and thereafter.
So, yes, I think he made a horrible, wrong choice and I’ve not even agreed with his choice even slightly on this thread. All I’m saying is that I have empathy and compassion for him as well as the victims here.
Edit: Oh and I wasn’t kidding about how much pain my wife was in during her second pregnancy. You’d have to know her, but she’s probably the physically toughest person (not just woman, person overall) I’ve ever met and she was almost unconscious from pain early on in the pregnancy. Pregnancy complications aren’t a joke and I can see how they’d drive people to make horrible decisions that they otherwise wouldn’t make.
“(thank God it was not)”
That’s my favorite part of your post. :-) I’m so glad to see you taking a chance on developing a relationship with God, Jack.
Thanks Lrning I’m trying, genuinely. Not just arguing.