Family not “focused” on whether pregnant mom on life support would have wanted baby born
Since she was excited about her second child, wouldn’t Marlise want her baby to be born despite her condition?
“We haven’t even focused on that yet,” says Machado, adding that doctors have told them they can’t determine the fetus’s health until mid-February.
“Our focus has been our daughter’s wishes not being honored. To see this body that’s being kept alive solely as an incubator, it’s hard.”
~ Lynne Machado, mother of Marlise Munoz, as quoted in People Magazine, February 3 issue. Yesterday Texas Judge R. H. Wallace ruled that John Peter Smith Hospital must remove Munoz from life support by 5p Monday, despite a Texas law that makes it illegal to take a pregnant mother off of life support. Munoz was found unconscious on November 26 and may have suffered a pulmonary embolism. The hospital declared her “brain-dead” on November 28. Munoz’s baby is now 22-1/2 weeks old.
[Photo of Eric and Marlise Munoz during happier times with now 15-mo-old son Mateo]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
There are so many conflicting stories here.
For instance, this: The Muñoz family has said medical records show the fetus is “distinctly abnormal” and has water on the brain and may have a heart condition. Mrs. Muñoz is believed to be 22 weeks and five days into the pregnancy.
And yet here is Marlise’s own mother in the quote above, reportedly stating the doctors can’t determine the baby’s health for at least another few weeks??
Something smells extremely foul here.
She is not an incubator. She is not a rotting corpse.
She is a beautiful mother, wife and daughter.
I agree Kel.
And the grandmother does not want her grandchild to be offered every opportunity to live??
Do people know the simplest of biology? A uterus IS NOT an incubator. An incubator wasn’t designed to feed or nourish a baby. It wasn’t designed to help a baby grow to his/her full potential. An incubator just keeps the baby warm, it’s not a body organ that was designed to grow a baby.
In fact, Marlise cannot possibly be a ‘pregnant patient’ — Marlise is dead,” the suit says. “To further conduct surgical procedures on a deceased body is nothing short of outrageous.”
If the mother is indeed “dead”, how does the child still have a heartbeat? Unborn children cannot survive in deceased bodies. Now we are rewriting the definition of dead? The fact remains that the child is not dead or there would be no lawsuit to argue about.
Doctors take an oath to protect all patients and the child is still very much alive. The husband says his wife verbally told him she wanted to be taken off life support if something happened. Did he and she discuss what she would want to happen if she was carrying a child?
The lawyers have also said that the child is ”distinctly abnormal.” So what if s/he is? What would the father and grandma ever say and do if Mateo becomes handicapped in the future through disease or accident? Would he still be loved and wanted? Would they want him dead too? Why is the baby not allowed to have a chance at life? We are all abnormal in one way or another for crying out loud!
This mom wants her baby to live. She had already made the choice to do what it took to allow her child to live. Under our current laws, why should the father be allowed to take away the choice she has already made? It’s all about women’s choice, right? This woman already chose Life.
We are indeed living in a culture of death and this father’s decision to not protect his child is gonna someday come back to haunt him I’m afraid.
She is not a rotting corpse. the only assistance she is receiving is with breathing. Her heart is beating on it’s own. She clearly is very much alive. This selfish father does not wan to be bothered with a possibly disabled child. There are families that would adopt that baby. I just don’t understand his desire to murder his child. The hospital was planning extensive testing in February. That was why the father is fighting so hard to get her unplugged. He is afraid that tests will show that the baby is viable and wrongly assumes he will be responsible for the baby’s care. There are loving people that would give that baby the love and care that the father refuses to give.
This is such a sad case. I was reading some comments abou, different boards and some of the statements about the baby were horrible, calling him/her an “abomination,” a “monster,” etc. I just wonder if these people feel this way about BORN people who are severely deformed. If so, this country is in bad shape.
This family is not only calloused towards the baby but towards the mother as well. They treat the baby that Marlise loved and wanted like a THING. If anyone treated my children like that….GRRR.
If she is “brain dead” then she is not suffering. Let her body protect the baby until he can be born.
What is Mateo going to think someday when he grows up and realizes his father and grandparents worked so hard and tirelessly to ensure the death of his only full biological sibling? Is that going to make him secure in his father’s love? Hope you are always perfect Mateo or that family may want no parts of you either. Such callousness. I don’t get it. No natural affection whatsoever.
As someone who has taken Medical Law and Ethics, brain death does not determine when a person expires, cardiac death does. The woman’s heart still beats, her body is still functioning and sustaining that baby’s life. I don’t understand why a family would want to hasten death of the mother and subsequently end the life of a precious child, when it’s not hurting the mother at all. As a mother, I would want to give my child a fighting chance at life!
http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Judge-Marlise-Munoz-to-be-removed-from-life-support-241887051.html
The Muñoz family attorneys argued Mrs. Muñoz is brain-dead, and therefore can’t be considered a “pregnant patient.”
The judge agreed, saying the state law does not apply to Marlise Muñoz “because she is deceased.”
[The rumors of ms Muñoz’s LIFE have been grealty exagerated according to death panelist R.H. Wallace.]
Judge Wallace said Mrs. Muñoz must be removed from life support by 5 p.m. Monday.
Texas’ Health and Safety Code says a person cannot “withdraw or withhold life-sustaining treatment […] for a pregnant patient.” The Tarrant County District Attorney’s Office, which represented the hospital, said the request to remove Marlise Muñoz from life support “ignores consideration of the unborn child.”
But even if Marlise Muñoz had an advance directive or a living will stating her wishes, it would be moot because of the Texas law.
Section 166.049 of the Texas Health and Safety Code reads: “A person may not withdraw or withhold life-sustaining treatment under this subchapter from a pregnant patient.”
In this case, Erick Muñoz did not have an advanced directive in writing. He did, however, have a mutual understanding with his wife about what to do if she were on life-support.
Even if he had had something in writing, it would not have mattered. Doctors were advised to follow the law as it reads in the Texas Health and Safety Code Chapter 166.
Two years ago my 40 year old niece suffered a brain aneurism. She went into a coma and doctors would not/could not say if she would live or die, much less regain consciousness. They did not know what her condition would be if she did survive. My 84 year old uncle drove 3 hours just to pray for her because, he said, “God told me to.”
Three days later Amy wakes up and immediately begins to talk. She has paralysis on the left side of her body, but other wise she is in good condition. She leaves the hospital and begins re-hab. One of her counselors suggests that other people who have sufferred similar set backs found it beneficial to seek the help of a higher power. Without any ‘help’ from her husband or children or extended family, Amy turned to Jesus. Not too long after that Amy’s husband filed for divorce and successfully petitioned the court for custody of their son. Amy continued her re-hab and her walk with Jesus. She re-located to Vermont to move in with her mother and step father.
Last summer Amy’s mother [my 64 year old sister] sufferred a stroke in her sleep and her heart and respiration stopped for quite a while before her husband awoke and discovered her condition. He called 911 and began CPR. The paramedics were able to re-establish a pulse and respiration, but it had been too long. My sister was ‘brain dead’. My brother in law informed all of his wife’s siblings of her diagnosis and prognosis and gave us all time to get to Vermont to say our good byes before he authorized the hospital to remove all life support. She lived for another two weeks.
Nobody was wanting to push her over the cliff. We all clung to hope that she would recover.
Amy has regained custody of her son and she continues to work hard in her rehab program. She and her young son are still living with her father in law in Vermont.
This is life.
If at some time the Muñoz family gets their way and the courts allow them to pull the plug on Marlise and her prenatal child and lo and behold she does not immediately die, what then?
Fetus in Muñoz case is “distinctly abnormal,” attorneys say.
http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/01/22/5506250/fetus-in-munoz-case-is-distinctly.html#storylink=cpy
Pre-natal child in Muñoz case says ‘normal’ is just a setting on the washing machine. There’s flaws in all us humans, even lawyers.”
Where is windy ‘Wonder Woman’ Davis in all of this?
Google search does not turn up any comments from the democRAT wart on women?
windy can flap her lying lips and wag her forked tongue for hours about physical autonomy and reproductive rights but she is queerily silent on this cause celeb.
Maybe the ‘pro-life’ windy voted in favor of the law that prevents JPS Hospital from aceding to the wishes of the Muñoz family.
This is America, and they want a dead baby.
Every American knows that he is entitle to a dead baby if he wants one — It’s just a matter of whom you have to coerce to kill it.
The only difference is that Eric Munoz had to convince a judge. Most men simply pressure the mother.
“If at some time the Muñoz family gets their way and the courts allow them to pull the plug on Marlise and her prenatal child and lo and behold she does not immediately die, what then?”
Let’s storm heaven with prayers that this or something else happens to save this person. If baby makes it to 26 weeks, would they be required to try and save him?
So how will the baby be delivered? And how long after giving birth will Marlise be taken off life support?
This just makes my blood boil! Both the husband and the parents of this lady FIGHTING for their right to essentially KILL her baby! I never thought I would come across people as narrow-minded as that. It isn’t hurting the mother to continue the pregnancy, I wonder if there’s money involved and more medical bills to pay if she’s not taken off life support. Either way, for the father and the grandparents not to wish for the last legacy of this woman to survive is monstrous to say the least.
Ahhh, now I see. Blue Velvet made the lights come on in my brain. So removing organs from a “dead body” is acceptable surgery for a dead body, but a c-section to allow a living human baby to come into the world and draw his first breath is somehow demeaning and horrible and must never be allowed.
How bizarre a pro-aborts head space must be.
You answered my first question, Sydney. Now what about the second?
There’s a lot of judgement being passed on this family and about what the woman would of wanted when none of you know anyone invovled.
This family lost a daughter, wife, and mother. And you’re all going on about how awful they are because they want to honor her wishes (which they know better than you.)
Such compassion there prolifers.
But I’m sure its just some conspiracy and this whole family just had it out for her, right?
It is a fact that this mother wanted her child to live.
And that is a fact no one can argue with.
I just pray for this family that they would have a moment of calm in this storm to weigh the burden of living out several more months of agonizing limbo versus a lifetime of regret. They’ve got forty years of cultural pressure making them think that the right thing to do is to dust themselves off and jump back into a new normal as quickly as possible. Waiting for the arrival of a baby who will bring new unknowns gets in the way of that. My heart goes out to them. Grief leaves you unable to breath – unable to think beyond the repeating rhythm of your breaking heart. Anyone in their circumstances would have a gut instinct to get out of those circumstances. It’s a tragedy that our culture is so persuasive and quick to offer death as an exit route.
I pray for this too Laurie. May they have a change of heart and give this child a chance. This baby may be exactly what the Doctor ordered to help this family heal.
What people are NOT talking about is CONFIDENTIALITY clauses, this can prevent the real TRUTH from being told. I am so grieved to say, this I believe that the whole case is to pass a law that babies can die if family chooses when, the mom doesn’t have a written ‘legal’ document on what she would want. This family is under a lot of pressure pray for them. Hopefully, this could maybe be resolved in a better way for ALL. Stop calling them names, the discussion deteriorates with name calling PRAY!!!
Who here is calling the family names Patti?
People who want the baby to die are calling the mother names like incubator and corpse.
I agree we need to PRAY.
I feel really sad for the family. It seems that they are so intent on fulfilling the mother’s wishes (that she not be kept alive with extraordinary measures, which is okay when it’s not involving an innocent party like an unborn child) that they have let their grief distract them from the new family member who still might have a chance. I hope they at least allow the woman to be kept on life support until February when this “extensive testing” whatever that is can be done, maybe that will change their mind? Is it even possible for a pregnant woman on life support to carry a baby to term? I don’t know. It’s just really heart-breaking.
“It is a fact that this mother wanted her child to live. ”
Err, no. Its assumed that she wanted to continue her pregnancy with the conditions she was in prior to her accident. Its not a fact that she wanted to be on life support if she was pregnant and frankly, its not even a fact that she would of continued the pregnancy if it turned out it was a risk to her life or if there was something wrong with the fetus. These are not known facts.
All we know is that she appeared to want to go through with healthy pregnancy in the hopes of having a healthy fetus. Just because she didn’t abort the moment she got a positive pregnancy test doesn’t mean that wasn’t an option to her if her circumstances changed. Which they did.
If her entire family is asking the hospital to take her off the life support, then we can assume that she probably didn’t want to be on life support pregnant or not. So no, its not a fact.
What appears to be a fact is a whole of people who don’t know this family are projecting their beliefs and what they would want to do onto this family and villianing them because they’re making a different choice.
Well, I’m not painting the family as villains and I don’t think many people are. I feel terrible for them and I can’t imagine their grief. And I have no problem with people making their feelings known about life support and not wanting to be kept alive with machines. If it’s only your life that isn’t being sustained with extraordinary measures, I think that’s a personal choice.
What I don’t think is a personal choice is not giving the baby a chance to become viable and be born. That child didn’t get to make any decisions about life support. That part is not debatable. Whatever decisions the mother wanted to make about her own life, her child had no say in such decisions. And I don’t think a child’s life should be dependent on what any parent, family member, or anyone else thinks.
I do have less problem, oddly, with removal of life support than I do with an outright abortion. It seems more moral to me to let nature take it’s course than targeting a child for death like a normal abortion is. I don’t see this family as “evil” or hateful towards the baby. BUT, I still don’t think it’s justifiable. At the very least, I think that further testing is warranted. I do feel awful about the situation, no matter what happens two children have lost a mother, a husband lost his wife, and parents have lost their daughter. I just hope that they don’t let their grief result in the loss of another family member if it’s at all avoidable.
“Who here is calling the family names Patti?”
In the comments on this blog post alone, you have people assuming that the father just wants to pull the plug because the fetus is inconvenient, people assuming that the grandparents don’t care about their unborn grand child, someone called the family monstrous, someone inferred that if anything happened to the son that left him disabled his dad and grandparents wouldn’t love him, etc. Someone even said the dad just wanted a dead baby because America loves dead babies. Very little regard for the fact that this dad and her parents are obviously suffering.
A lot of people jumping on these people they don’t know and assuming their actions are coming from a place of malicious rather than respect for their love one’s wishes.
Again, real compassionate there “pro lifers.”
And Chelle you are correct that none of us know for sure that the mother wished her child to be kept alive. I still don’t think that means it’s okay to let the child die though. I wish there was a better way to keep the baby alive, I don’t like the thought of the mother’s end of life wishes being disrespected. But sadly, there’s no way for the child to be given a chance, however small, at life without the mother being kept on life support.
“And I don’t think a child’s life should be dependent on what any parent, family member, or anyone else thinks.”
And yet here you are, posting on a website that thinks that is capable of making that decision.
After all, every woman is someone’s child. And “pro lifers” think they should make what could be life threatening medical decisions for them.
“But sadly, there’s no way for the child to be given a chance, however small, at life without the mother being kept on life support.”
And by keeping her on forced life support you’re going into direct contrast that a child’s life (in this case, the woman) shouldn’t be dependent on everyone else.
Its her wish to not be on life support. Her family has confirmed this. Let her go in peace like nature wanted her too.
I don’t believe you can kill someone else to preserve your own rights. That old “your right to swing your fist ends where my face begins” seems to apply here. I think the right to not be killed supersedes other rights (I don’t discount that other rights are important, but you can’t have ANY rights if you aren’t alive).
Except in cases of self-defense, of course, I never have thought that anyone should be required to carry a pregnancy that’s killing them. But that doesn’t seem to apply to this case.
You haven’t even mentioned the baby and his or her own rights, you’re only concerned with the woman’s wishes for her end of life care. Why doesn’t the child matter at all to you?
“And by keeping her on forced life support you’re going into direct contrast that a child’s life (in this case, the woman) shouldn’t be dependent on everyone else. ”
I missed this, that’s obviously not what I was saying. I don’t think anyone, man woman or child, should have their life taken from them without their say-so. That’s what I was referring to with my comment about a child’s life not being dependent on what their mother wants. My mother never wanted me to be alive, when I was a fetus and after I was born. I don’t think my life should have ever been dependent on her wishes no matter what age I was or what stage of development I was. Like I said, I’m fine with people choosing to let nature take it’s course and not sustain their life through extraordinary means, I’m not fine with someone else deciding that a child has to die because of the mother’s wants.
Chelle ~ Re-read. There was no name calling.
And people always have reasons for bad decisions, but that makes the decision itself no less bad. I like the way pro-abortion people think we (quote-unquote) pro-lifers don’t understand the complexity of the issues. We just happen to think some of the compassion floating around here should be reserved for the weakest among us.
Pro-aborts—Blue Velvet and Chelle, if she is DEAD then why is it a big deal if she is on life support. SHE IS A CORPSE, remember? She is DEAD. She doesn’t know or care that her body is being kept alive on life support. That baby is a living human being. That baby deserves to LIVE.
I agree with Deluded here. I’m okay with someone not wanting to prolong their life with medical intervention. That is their right and I support that. But in this case there is a living human baby and his right to life supersedes all the wants and wishes of adults. The right to life is the most basic right there is. It is first and foremost.
We also don’t know what Marlise wanted in terms of end of life care. You say we can’t know that she wanted this pregnancy…it appears she did. Her husband says that she didn’t want to be on life support ever…but we don’t have video of her saying this or a written statement. It is all hearsay.
“I don’t think anyone, man woman or child, should have their life taken from them without their say-so.”
And that’s whats happening in this case – this woman’s life is being taken away from her without her say so.
She didn’t want to be on life support. Period. End of discussion.
“You haven’t even mentioned the baby and his or her own rights, you’re only concerned with the woman’s wishes for her end of life care. Why doesn’t the child matter at all to you?”
Well one, the fetus doesn’t have rights. Two, even if it did, someone’s rights don’t take priority over others.
Tell me, are you in favor of force organ or blood donations? Afterall, blood donation is much minor than pregnancy. And once someone passes, they don’t need their organs – why not require it?
And yet, I never see “pro lifers” push for that.
“She didn’t want to be on life support. Period. End of discussion.”
Nope. You’re pretending that the baby doesn’t exist. The baby has a life too, that you’re completely ignoring for whatever reason. Sadly, the mother isn’t going to live, but the baby might have a chance.
“Chelle ~ Re-read. There was no name calling.”
I listed several examples of the types of name calling that went down on this thread. Why don’t you re-read?
“We just happen to think some of the compassion floating around here should be reserved for the weakest among us.”
Ah, so its ok to prioritize one being over an other when it suits you but the idea that a woman take priority over an unvaiable fetus is unthinkable.
And why do you assume you know what pro-lifers do or don’t support? I could get behind an “opt-out” organ donation system, where it’s assumed that you will donate unless you opt out. I think it’s horrible that more people don’t donate blood too. But none of that is particularly relevant to going around actively killing unborn babies for non-life threatening reasons.
And fetuses only don’t have rights because people like you have deemed them worthless unless they are wanted.
“Ah, so its ok to prioritize one being over an other when it suits you but the idea that a woman take priority over an unvaiable fetus is unthinkable.”
No, the fact that someone’s wants take precedence over someone else’s life is unthinkable.
“Nope. You’re pretending that the baby doesn’t exist. The baby has a life too, that you’re completely ignoring for whatever reason. Sadly, the mother isn’t going to live, but the baby might have a chance.”
Actually, both sides agree that the fetus is not viable. So no chance there. http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/24/health/pregnant-brain-dead-woman-texas/
“No, the fact that someone’s wants take precedence over someone else’s life is unthinkable.”
You can easily flip the woman and the fetus and say the same sentence. Do you know how many women die due to pregnancy in this country alone? Why does potential life take priority over actual life?
“I could get behind an “opt-out” organ donation system, where it’s assumed that you will donate unless you opt out.”
So you’re ok with some people opting out of organ donation unless they’re a pregnant woman huh? What if there’s a baby who’s only match is someone who opted out of the program? Then what?
“And fetuses only don’t have rights because people like you have deemed them worthless unless they are wanted.”
No, fetuses don’t have rights because we recongize that women have rights as well and they should take the priority over just the potential of life.
Hey I have to get to sleep, Chelle, but I’ll try to answer your questions after tomorrow. I don’t want you to think I’m ignoring you. I’m busy tomorrow but I should be able to comment again on Monday afternoon. Have a nice night and a good rest of the weekend and take care!
“if she is DEAD then why is it a big deal if she is on life support. SHE IS A CORPSE, remember? She is DEAD. She doesn’t know or care that her body is being kept alive on life support. That baby is a living human being. That baby deserves to LIVE.”
And the fetus doesn’t know or care either. Scientifically speaking, her and the fetus are probably on the same development wave length right now.
“We also don’t know what Marlise wanted in terms of end of life care. You say we can’t know that she wanted this pregnancy…it appears she did.”
Err, no. That’s not what I said at all. I said the opposite actually. That all we know is that she wanted the pregnancy but we don’t know if that means abortion was completely removed from the situation.
People are acting like just because she didn’t abort the moment the pregnancy test was positive means she wouldn’t never consider an abortion. There are many women who wanted their pregnancies but had to terminate in during their third terms. We don’t know what kind of condition she would of continued the pregnancy in.
And the only people that would know her wishes ARE HER FAMILY. Who say that she wouldn’t want to be on life support. Why should we take the opinions of complete strangers the ones here on this post over HER FAMILY.
“I think the right to not be killed supersedes other rights (I don’t discount that other rights are important, but you can’t have ANY rights if you aren’t alive).”
Pregnancy is risky. And not all women who die due to pregnancy related causes were given a heads up and the option to choose if she should so her fetus could live.
People should not have to play russian roulatte. The potentinal of something is not more important than an actual person.
Someone above commented on how the son must feel about his dad and grandparents “trying to kill” his sibling. And I’m sure he’s sad about the lost of what could of been, just as his father and grandparents no doubt are (dispiste the coldness that is steaming from some commenters here) but the loss of his mother will have much more of an impact.
And that’s what you “pro lifers” are asking people to do. Risk losing mothers, wifes, daughters, sisters, friends, for what could be.
Welcome to SODOME AND GOMORRA. This is the exact attitude of people living in those times. Kill the baby is the attitude. No thought is given to kindness or life.
Let her go in peace like nature wanted her too.
Nature wanted me to go in peace a time or two as well. Thank goodness for antibiotics.
Dead babies.
No matter what.
Chelle,
Please, do you have any idea what you’re talking about?
Not all women who die were given the “option to choose”? People aren’t given the option to be in car accidents either, but I bet you drive a car.
If there is any risk to the mother’s life everything must be and is done to protect her and hopefully the baby as well. Ever hear of high risk OBs and maternity units? NICUs? Medical specialists like cardiologists and internists?
Absolutely everything is, and will be done, to save a mother’s life. Thankfully in this day of advanced technology, diagnostics and vastly improved medical techniques, it rarely comes down to the life of the mother or child. That’s not to say it never does. No one has ever argued that a woman should be left to die.
What do you think of women being induced into second and third trimester labor and deliveries in a doctor’s office and then sent to a hotel and advised to sit on the toilet until she delivers while a non medical person keeps in touch with her by phone? A third world horror story? No, 2nd and 3rd trimester abortion here in the United States.
Just because she didn’t abort the moment she got a positive pregnancy test doesn’t mean that wasn’t an option to her if her circumstances changed.
It doesn’t mean it was either. Many mothers would give their lives to save their little ones. Sacrificial love does exist.
Chelle, have you ever heard of St. Gianna Beretta Molla? She was a great doctor as well as wife and mother. Please look her up if you get a chance.
Many people believe in asking a saint for the intercession of a miracle. I’m asking St. Gianna to intercede for Baby Munoz.
One huge thing is being overlooked here. Until *this case* every doctor I have ever spoken to or read about, pro-life or pro-abortion, has been in utter agreement that an artificially animated dead body can not continue a pregnancy. Once a person is dead, even if the heart and breath is kept artificially regulated, the pregnancy will end. This argument shouldn’t be about the baby, it should be about how the term ‘brain dead’ is being applied to people whose brains are CLEARLY ALIVE. The heart has it’s own electrical center, so it’s theoretical, at least for a short time, for the heart to beat and circulate blood even if the brain is dead. But a dead brain can not regulate temperature, can not tell cells to distribute nutrients, can not regulate the careful hormone balance necessary to maintain a pregnancy, can’t reprioritize the body’s systems so the proper nutrients are shuttled to the placental exchange. If this poor woman’s brain was dead, we wouldn’t be having this conversation, the baby would have died weeks ago. A body with a dead brain begins to break down within hours, despite the best attempts at medical support, the blood stops clotting and massive internal bleeding begins, the immune system stops functioning and massive infection and rot starts in, organ systems shut down as their supply of on-hand energy runs out and the brain doesn’t send more their way. In other words, a dead brain, despite everything we might try to do, simply results in a rotting corpse very rapidly. This ‘brain dead’ woman has been functioning as a LIVING HUMAN BEING gestating another living human being for more than 8 weeks now. TWO MONTHS! Want to know what a corpse looks like two months after death? It don’t look like your loved one in a hospital bed! This woman is severely brain damaged, not brain dead. Now, it might be perfectly feasibly for an adult human to determine ahead of time, or for an adult human to determine as a medical proxy for their loved one, that further medical care not be given to a severely injured individual and to let nature take it’s course. Being intubated is certainly medical care not standard upkeep, it can not be compared to hydration or feeding or turning to avoid bed sores. And the husband has the right to make that determination for his wife. BUT, we aren’t talking about *just* his wife, and this conversation would not be happening, certainly not on a national scale, if the doctors hadn’t first LIED and told the family their loved one was brain dead. If the doctors had told them their wife/daughter was severely brain damaged and time was needed to see if she would heal or die from this injury, and in the meantime the pregnancy will continue as long as HER LIVING BODY is able to support it (moreover that being pregnant, due to the circulation of stem cells from the baby in her bloodstream, actually gives her a better chance, however small, of recovery) we wouldn’t be here. If the doctors had properly told the judge that ‘this woman is alive but suffering from a severe brain injury, we don’t expect her to live long term, but she is currently a living patient who is needing only proper care to remain that way, the existing Texas law would have been the end of it. Yes, I’m sure this is a very trying time for the family, but it’s being horrendously increased not by the pregnancy or the media or the social spotlight, but by doctors who insist on lying to people about what ‘brain dead’ entails. The term ‘brain dead’ varies hospital to hospital and even doctor to doctor, it is a description, not a diagnosis and has not definitive meaning, it was invented solely for the purpose of obtaining more ‘viable’ organs between the few hours when the brain dies and the body can still be kept oxygenated and blood flowing before massive system failure sets in, and has been used as an excuse to both harvest from truly alive people as well as to let the hardest part of doctoring, of life really, the need to just wait and see what happens, be erased. This is not a corpse incubating a potential life, this is a living woman with a living brain, whose living brain is regulating a growing baby. We do a sever disservice to the greater cause of ‘pro-life’ when we focus on whether a ‘dead’ woman can be artificially kept ‘alive’ to gestate a baby to external viability. That’s letting the pro-death camp pick the battle field, language, and weapons. We should be centered on the actual battle field, which the media is avoiding like a live asp.
Very informative, Jespren.
I know very little from a medical standpoint, so I appreciate the comments from those who do. There are so many stories out there right now and people who don’t understand like me are easily manipulated, I believe.
Please keep us up-to-date and/or send us to a legit site so we can become better informed.
I do disagree with you though Jespren that this argument should not be about the baby. The baby is at the center of this argument.
And yet here is Marlise’s own mother in the quote above, reportedly stating the doctors can’t determine the baby’s health for at least another few weeks?? Something smells extremely foul here.
Obviously People spoke to her before the tests on the fetus were done. The tests may have been completed earlier than initially anticipated because of the hearing date.
This is a good reminder to get a living will in order. I have mine done. I say let the baby be born and then pull the plug on the mother. I work at a funeral home now. Just had a wake for an 18 year old. Youre never too young to die.
Also dont forget this man is in crisis. How many women abort because of pressure from family or a boyfriend? He deserves the same support that a woman considering abortion does.
We can pose the same questions to a pre abortive woman….Why dont you just put the baby up for adoption? The woman usually says it would be too difficult to carry and then give the baby up. Easier and quicker to kill. Maybe $ is a problem. Number one or 2 excuse I hear for abortion is lack of $$. Yes this family needs prayer.
Up until the point that she could no longer state her wishes, this mother wanted her child to be born alive. That is a fact that is indisputable. For anyone to speak for her now is not fair to her or the baby.
If money is an issue for this family, we as prolifers should commit to help them out once the baby is born. Keep praying!
https://www.facebook.com/savebabymunoz
thanks very much jesperen. Your explanation of this particular and extremely rare circumstance does not fall into PC … abortion rhetoric/scenarios about ‘when viability becomes possible///potential-oppresses-actual-life. It is weird because the idea of ‘potentiality’ in living beings is such that some would call this ‘actualizing’ a sort-of-blind-non-choice-forcing-of-fulfillment. Its something like throwing a bowling ball. The ball MAY end in the gutter, but hiring someone to kick-the-ball aside out-of-fear is CHANGING-THE-GAME?????
Chelle, I find you to be very lucid about the pro-choice view. And It seems interesting how impassioned you are that we-PL see this as a abortion-issue related to rights. It does indeed reveal the extent to save-another-life that seems to motivate much patriarchy/matriarchy-thinking. It also reveals a much-more-sinister motivation that seems rampant in the PC cause.
Its almost as if the-right-to-life does not apply to a person who is very vulnerable who needs … profoundly needs help. When does a human-baby become a human-fetus, and ‘killable’ … because then it is more-vulnerable/weaker/more-dependent-on-you?
She was removed from life support today.
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20779973,00.html
LL
“It doesn’t mean it was either.”
I never said it wasn’t did I? I was responding specifically to a commenter that said it was fact that abortion was never an option for her. We don’t know if that’s true, therefore its not a fact.
“It doesn’t mean it was either. Many mothers would give their lives to save their little ones. Sacrificial love does exist. Chelle, have you ever heard of St. Gianna Beretta Molla? She was a great doctor as well as wife and mother. Please look her up if you get a chance.”
I have heard of her. Isn’t it wonderful that she got to make a choice instead of having a decision forced upon her?
“Please, do you have any idea what you’re talking about? Not all women who die were given the “option to choose”? People aren’t given the option to be in car accidents either, but I bet you drive a car.”
Of course I drive a car. And if I get into an accident, an ambulance will come to help me. They won’t sit around saying “well, she knew the risks of driving.”
“Ever hear of high risk OBs and maternity units? NICUs? Medical specialists like cardiologists and internists?”
Yuppers, I sure have. Doesn’t mean women don’t die of pregnancy related complications.
That’s not to say it never does. No one has ever argued that a woman should be left to die.
“What do you think of women being induced into second and third trimester labor and deliveries in a doctor’s office and then sent to a hotel and advised to sit on the toilet until she delivers while a non medical person keeps in touch with her by phone? A third world horror story? No, 2nd and 3rd trimester abortion here in the United States. ”
Unlike the people on this board, I don’t a) pass judgement on women who seek 2nd or 3rd abortions or b) assume I know better than them in the decisions they should make.
Then again, I also know that these types of abortions are rare and death from pregnancy complications are actually much more common.
And yet, prolifers still insist on forcing women to play Russian roulette with their lives.
Nicole’s mother wanted her to live. That is a fact which you cannot argue. So much for a woman’s choice. A man made the choice in this case as they do in many cases where women are threatened, bullied and coerced into abortion.
Celebrate on Chelle.
Dead babies. No. Matter. What.
“Nicole’s mother wanted her to live. That is a fact which you cannot argue.”
Its not a fact that she wanted to carry out her pregnancy while on life support. The only fact we know is that she wanted to carry out her pregnancy in her current conditions prior to going on life support.
Why you keep acting like you know that its a “fact” that she wanted to continue her pregnancy on life support and in fact, act like you know what she wanted better than her own family is disturbing.
And I’m not celebrating anything. This family has suffered a horrible tragedy that was turned into a media circus by people over stepping their boundaries and acting like they know better and care more about the situation.
Fact: Nicole’s mother wanted her to live. A man was given the choice to change HER CHOICE.
Dead babies for Chelle. No. Matter. What.
Chelle,
LOL, you assume a lot, like you’ll survive the accident. Not all women who die were given the “option to choose”? So they were at risk and their doctors did nothing? What exactly are you saying?
Yes women still die of complications. I know that first hand. However advances in medicine and technology means everything will be done to protect mother and child. No one is arguing that any woman should be left to die. If tragically a pregnancy must be terminated to save the mother, it will be done.
Chelle, you miss the point. Its not about passing judgment on these 2nd and 3rd trimester women having abortions, its about the appalling standard of “care” these women are given. You consider the circumstances I describe as high quality care?
This is simply murder of a fetus. What difference would it have made if they would have allowed baby Nicole to stay in brain dead moms uterus for another 8 days to 24 weeks gestational age at which point she would have had a 70% chance of survival. What was the big rush to kill this fetus? Brain dead mom is still going to be brain dead not matter what. Why not try to save the baby Nicole? It is obvious that brain dead mom did not want to have an abortion or she would have done so in the first trimester. Is there no one to speak for the living fetus? Does this fetus not deserve to live. What if the fetus was 37 weeks when mom became brain dead, would you still kill the fetus by pulling the plug on brain dead mom, or would you do a c section.