Incinerated babies no different than incinerated tonsils, body fluids
I’m not in the least disturbed by the fact that patients were not consulted on how their dead fetus was disposed.
When you go in for an operation, are you concerned about what is done with the bloody towels afterwards, or how your appendix or tonsils or excised cyst are treated? Did you think there was some special room deep in the bowels of the institution where they were reverently interred, attended by a weeping chaplain who said a few kind words over your precious bodily fluids?
Nope. They’re sealed up in a bag, dealt with according to appropriate protocols for medical waste, and incinerated.
Get over it.
~ Blogger P.Z. Myers at Pharyngula, March 26, responding to news that the bodies of thousands of aborted and miscarried babies were incinerated at UK hospitals, some to provide heat
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Except your appendix that was removed is not the same as a child removed during an abortion and you know it. And every woman knows it. We’re told over and over how unborn babies are just “tissue” yet I’ve never once mourned over my wisdom teeth or wondered what became of them once they were removed. I could care less.
But I know friends who’ve obsessed over what happened to their baby’s bodies after abortion or miscarriage.
You should read the comments over there on that blog. Joking about eating babies and all sorts of vile comments. Really shows the reality of the pro-abortion mindset. These people are sick and disturbed.
Well, I think we could have known that this point was going to come up sooner or later. Honestly, that was my first reaction when I heard the story–“well, if we are going to behave as if a child slated for abortion is no more than tissue, we can hardly be surprised when they end up being treated as no more than tissue.” And if we are going to be outraged that the corpses of aborted children are being treated with disrespect, then we should be likewise outraged that living prenatal children are being treated with disrespect.
When I had a D&C after a miscarriage, my local hospital did not, in fact, incinerate my baby as “medical waste”. They do burials for miscarried children (they don’t perform elective abortions) twice a year at a local cemetery that donates plots.
They have a small memorial service that goes along with each burial, and the one my husband and I went to was well-attended. Clearly, a lot of people DID care about what happened to their babies.
He’s said crazier stuff before. But at least he’s consistent.
http://www.jillstanek.com/2013/03/ap-abortions-are-typically-performed-in-utero/#comment-446002
At least he’s consistent. I get more annoyed with the pro-choicers who treat abortion as if, yes, there are dead babies involved but it’s okay that the babies are being killed. At least Mr PZ Myers has been consistent in fully dehumanizing fetuses and treating them as if they are nothing more than tissue to be tossed aside.
I think most people intuitively understand there is something different about dead fetuses compared to tonsil tissue or whatever, and PZ’s honesty might shock some of them out of their “personally pro-life” position.
Stay classy, PZ.
The problem for all of these old fogey pro-‘borts is that the world has not advanced in the direction that they expected. They have been left behind, by a generation that is awakening to the dignity of the human person.
Even though the children died in abortions, we expect them to be treated as human persons — not as medical waste.
The current state of confusion is inconsistent — children can still be killed as a “choice” even as we are aghast at their incineration as “waste” — but the movement is toward respect for life, not further away from it. And this has the old “liberals” scared.
(I use scare quotes around the “liberals” because there are authentic liberals who respect life above all else — wealth and power and personal choice and all the other little idols that compete with liberty.)
Hey, someone let me know, has old P.Z. actually gotten some original research published in peer reviewed journals yet? :-D
As horrid as PZ and his attitude are I truly appreciate honest. Brutal honesty.
No dancing around the word “fetus.” No bloviating about “safe.” No circular reasoning. No arguments that never go anywhere. No games. No lies.
PZ knows that babies are murdered in abortions. PZ knows that those babies that were murdered have bodies. PZ knows that the bodies are incinerated for heating hospitals in the UK. And PZ doesn’t care.
Got it.
I didn’t refer to my appendix as my dead appendix. Like Carla says, they know someone is dead and they don’t care. Thank the living God, we will never get over it, until IT is over. Treating a small helpless pre-born human like waste is worse than slavery. It denigrates every person in what is supposed to be civilized society. There is no way that we can call progress the legal and systematic destruction of human beings. Abortion fans want to drag us centuries into the past.
Ignorant animals sometimes destroy their young. We are supposed to be evolved. We are supposed to be better than that. Who is anti-science? Who is anti-evolution? Ironically, it’s not the pro-lifers.
PZ: I’m sure the Nazi’s working in the concentration camps and gas chambers had the same attitude. I pray your lifeless soul finds rebirth.
the world has not advanced in the direction that they expected. – ah, you crack me up sometimes Del :-)
Perhaps you could point out the relevance of your question in regards to this specific topic of discussion Pharmer? But if it assists –
PZ Myers:
Education
1985 Ph.D. in Biology, Institute of Neuroscience,University of Oregon, Eugene, OR
1979 B.S. in Zoology, University of Washington, Seattle, WA
1975-1976 attended DePauw University, Greencastle, IN
1973-1975 attended Kent-Meridian High School, Kent, WA
Employment
2003- Associate Professor, Division of Science and Math, University of Minnesota, Morris
2000-2003 Assistant Professor, Division of Science and Math, University of Minnesota, Morris
1993-2000 Assistant Professor, Department of Biology, Temple University
1991-1993 Research Assistant Professor in the Department of Biology, University of Utah
1988-1991 Post-doctoral research associate with Dr. Michael J. Bastiani in the Department of Biology, University of Utah
1985-1988 VAX system manager and programmer for the Institute of Neuroscience, University of Oregon
1979-1985 Graduate research with Dr. Charles B. Kimmel at the Institute of Neuroscience, University of Oregon
International Humanist Award (2011)
Humanist of the Year award (2009) American Humanist Association
Top-ranked blog written by a scientist (Nature science journal, 2006)
He’s also a published author. Which university employs you as a highly qualified biologist Pharmer?
Proving once again education and wisdom are two different things. A book about blogs, what a great contibution to the rest of the world. At least he is in like company with his humanist award. Dan Savage, Gloria Steinem, Bill Nye, Margaret Sanger. Such a trusted source in Wikipedia.
Education and wisdom may well be two different things David. Good job Myers has both then isn’t it.
Did you not look any further thanWikipedia? There’s much more info available if you look.
“Reality” Acutally, I have been aware of the doctor for some time. He seems to enjoy being uncivil and a bit lazy on the facts. I would not consider wisdom and Paul Zachory Myers in the same sentence.
I have also been aware of him for some time.
I don’t know on what basis you consider him uncivil, and he is a very long way from being even a bit lazy on the facts. In fact, being acutely accurate with the facts is one of the benefits of his site.
You don’t have to, that’s your choice. Who might you consider wise?
Aside from the comments subject of this article, the remarks from his peers at the Sceptics movement, from which he left with the parting shot of referring to said peers as stupid or liars. The general response has been to note his (as well as others) tendency to use the movement to respond opinions contrary to his own with name calling and at best, unpleasent and unwarrented remarks. Often his contributions worked against rational dialog. By his peers he was referred to as a sectarian, not a sceptic (who do not adhere to a particular doctrine as he thinks it should. One went so far as to reccomend he not let the door hit him on the _ _ _ on the way out. Finally, there is his own elagent verdict of all dictionary aethiests as dumb….es I am sure he made quite the impression of civility in that particular blog. All based on the facts though, I am sure.
You have some references and citations for all of this of course?
Often his contributions worked against rational dialog. – did this come from them as well or is it from you?
Disagreement between ‘peers’ within a society, group or club is quite distinct from ‘peer reviewed’ scientific papers etc.
You do have the ability to discern between fact and opinion don’t you?
Those are opinions of hes peers. Peer reviewed such as you refer, would require a qulifying published written work, not a book about his blog. If you were aware of him or read his blog, or arguments (such as they have at times actually been) or even just his narrow minded opinions, you would not have to ask for citations. Had you paid any attention to his “contributions” and rebuttals thereof, you would be more intimately familiar. If not, and it would appear you have not, perhaps you have relied too heavily on what you found at Wiki. Look, I have known people who operate as he does. It is almost as if he types out shock statements knowing what he is doing to his own credibility, says “that’s going to hurt” and then hits “send”. What he has written here, regarding the burning of a woman’s dead child, which is what a dead fetus is, is uncivilized yet not unlike his charactor. What of the dignity of the woman who lost her child, no compassion from his corner. Shock value and more shock value. Do your own work.
Awful…dead human beings being used for heat!
Sorry, but it’s impossible to take him seriously after that whole Elevatorgate brouhaha.
I’ve seen no correlation between a person’s number of academic degrees or number of published works and his or her sense of ethics. Josef Mengele held a PhD in Anthropology and a Doctorate in Medicine and was very well published on original research.
All this shock value rhetoric from “reputable” academics reminds me of that fired Colorado “professor” Ward Churchill who compared 9/11 victims to “little eichmann.” All this follows the concept of academic freedom and PZ Myers is skating on thin ice apparently not well versed in what the concept’s limitations are.
All this unrestrained shooting off of his mouth may eventually bite him in the derriere when it gets to be too much for his bosses at the U of M. They now have a court precedent in the firing and appeal dismissal of Churchill.
Reality,
please address the post.
The bodies of aborted babies incinerated to heat UK hospitals means nothing to PZ.
What if anything does that mean to you?
You get bonus points for brutal honesty.
Zero points for yapping on and on about the word “body.”
To understand the level of human depravity when humans are considered non-persons, ashes of burned Jews, Gypsies and other non-person humans were used to fertilize flower gardens and vegetable gardens at Dachau.
Don’t feed the troll, etc.
As David pointed out, PZ Myers’ only “academic” accomplishment is his blog Pharyngula and the new book “The Happy Atheist.” This book is a compilation of the themes he’s covered on his blog BUT nothing of academic value really. So “reality” claims PZ Myers to be a published author. All I can do is respond HAHA to this claim in light of the fact that there are no journals that have any peer-reviewed works from PZ Myers on the topics he got his Ph.D. in.
This quack rants about religion and politics to no end. I think Myers needs to take a page from Richard Dawkins and actually publish on evolutionary biology. He would actually make use of his Ph.D. and make U of M proud….
Y’all, it wouldn’t matter if it was the Dalai Lama, Mother Theresa, Hugh Hefner, or the homeless guy down the street who said this: it’s still wrong and evil.
Because the truth is, people are taken aback because we know a human body when we see it, even in its early gestational ages. And we want the remains of our children to be given the same respect as the remains of all other humans. Because aborted and miscarried children are humans; they are not just random medical waste. They are not just tonsil tissue and fluid, they are the remains of living people.
PZ Myer reminds me of this verse from the Bible: 1 Corinthians 13: 1 – 2. “Now I will show you the way which surpasses all others. If I speak with human tongues and angelic as well, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong, a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and, with full knowledge, comprehend all mysteries, if I have faith great enough to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.” He showed disdain for his unborn human neighbors and perhaps their unknowing mothers, not love.
Educating a demon only makes a more cunning devil my granny used to say.
Some people are educated beyond their intelligence.
Because you hold certain papers you acquired in a learning institution, does not a moral person make. Nor even a smart one. In to days education being a Marxist materialism, or clever imitator is what passages for brain power. Critical thinking in the age of “progressive-ism” is not needed. Only emotions.
If pro aborts see no moral problem with abortion, or still believe it’s only tissue, then this is the logical conclusion. The fact we’re (rightly) repulsed about burning the bodies shows there is something more to it.
Is there anything preventing women from choosing how they want to have their aborted and miscarried babies disposed of? Surely the mothers who care about their lost babies are not leaving it up to chance that those babies might get incinerated by accident.
“Is there anything preventing women from choosing how they want to have their aborted and miscarried babies disposed of? Surely the mothers who care about their lost babies are not leaving it up to chance that those babies might get incinerated by accident”
I know here in the States you can. I don’t know about in Britain.
Those are opinions of hes peers. – you still seem somewhat confused about the difference between social peers and academic peers.
Peer reviewed such as you refer, would require a qulifying published written work, not a book about his blog. - it wasn’t meant to be or promoted as a science text.
If you were aware of him or read his blog, or arguments (such as they have at times actually been) or even just his narrow minded opinions, you would not have to ask for citations.- I am a regular reader of his blog, have been for several years, apparently you haven’t. That is why I asked.
Had you paid any attention to his “contributions” and rebuttals thereof, you would be more intimately familiar. – what you claim is not present, hence my request.
If not, and it would appear you have not, perhaps you have relied too heavily on what you found at Wiki. – did you not read my comment about there being a whooooole lot more than wiki about him.
Look, I have known people who operate as he does. It is almost as if he types out shock statements knowing what he is doing to his own credibility, says “that’s going to hurt” and then hits “send”. What he has written here, regarding the burning of a woman’s dead child, which is what a dead fetus is, is uncivilized yet not unlike his charactor. – I think the fact that he operates factually and in the realm of the real world adds to his credibility. Nor is he uncivilized. Your not liking him or his position doesn’t invalidate what he says.
Reality,
please address the post. – I did. It was a critique of PZ and the other commenters weighed in on that. So did I.
The bodies of aborted babies incinerated to heat UK hospitals means nothing to PZ. – so he has told us.
What if anything does that mean to you? – women who lose their fetus due to miscarriage should of course be asked what path they wish to choose. Women who have chosen abortion aren’t exactly likely to have such concerns, but I would support them having the right to choose anyway. According to the March of Dimes, as many as 50% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage — most often before a woman misses a menstrual period or even knows she is pregnant. I don’t think I’d like to run around telling women their sanitary products contain ‘human beings’ or ‘babies.’
You get bonus points for brutal honesty. – how many?
Zero points for yapping on and on about the word “body.” – nope, no use of the word in my response.
As David pointed out, PZ Myers’ only “academic” accomplishment is his blog Pharyngula and the new book “The Happy Atheist.” – so you too have completely failed to read his academic profile.
This book is a compilation of the themes he’s covered on his blog BUT nothing of academic value really. – he hasn’t claimed it to be anything more.
So “reality” claims PZ Myers to be a published author. All I can do is respond HAHA to this claim in light of the fact that there are no journals that have any peer-reviewed works from PZ Myers on the topics he got his Ph.D. in. – my claim is true, he is a published author. So why do you go ‘HAHA’? You think post-doctoral and research work doesn’t produce papers and don’t get reviewed and assessed? People don’t just hand in blank reams and get awarded PhD’s you know.
This quack rants about religion and politics to no end. – so you haven’t read his blog either.
I think Myers needs to take a page from Richard Dawkins and actually publish on evolutionary biology. He would actually make use of his Ph.D. and make U of M proud…. – your decision to ignore the facts doesn’t make your claim true.
Wow, way to take to it left field liberals. No one’s stated or dictating that we hold funerals for every miscarriage or abortion, but rather it’s disrespectful to human beings to use their bodily remains as fuel and further more the woman should have the CHOICE in how her embryonic/fetal remains are disposed of.
Also, correctly, after the egg is fertilized it is called a blastocyst, the term “fertilized egg” is a misnomer.
There is a difference between the unintended miscarriage (spontaneous abortion) or failure to implant & the purposefully induced abortion, and to suggest otherwise does a disservice to many women.
And finally, while the cell of a human (such as.the sperm or the egg individually) contains human DNA, it doesn’t represent a complete human organism, it is only part of one, containing only half of the chromosomes of as a full human organism. Nor will it develop into a full human organism until fertilization at which time 46 chromosomes, more or less, are present & development begins. Therefore the “every sperm is sacred” & grieve all menstrual periods argument is irrelevant.
There, I think I’ve addressed all the pro-choice fallacies here from P.Z. Myers readers & trolls.
Well said Ladybug.
Ditto to everything Ladybug said. I do not understand the logic that because we do not have funerals for every unborn child, it is okay to incinerate their bodies for fuel. That is quite a leap. I doubt many homeless people without kin have full-on funerals, but that does not make it AT ALL appropriate to use their bodies for “practical” purposes.
grieve all menstrual periods argument is irrelevant – what about when a woman doesn’t know that her menstrual flow is actually a failed product of conception Ladybug? What is she blithely throwing away, maybe even incinerating?
As far as those funerals go, pro-lifers stepped up and provided funerals at their own expense for pre-born babies who were carelessly discarded in dumpsters.
The hospital knew full well it was incinerating fetal remains. It was not blithely throwing anything away.
@ reality – give it up you can’t reason with the “all sperm are sacred” crowd.
When my mother died we cremated her, as was her wish. I would have felt like we were honouring her further if the heat from her cremation could have been used for something rather than dissipating uselessly into the environment.
People who have abortions and miscarriages know, for the most part, what happens to the fetal remains. If they are not happy with the way the remains are treated, they can ask to have the remains given to them. If they don’t mind having the remains destroyed on the hospital grounds, I don’t think it is up to anyone else to tell them how they should feel about it.
Ryan,
Did you read my response to your “all sperm is sacred” logical fallacy? And do you really have anything better to contribute to the conversation?
Hey (Who’s) Reality,
Are you being purposely obtuse or did you pick & choose which parts of my comment you read & reply to? Again, pro-lifers recognize the difference in intent between the unintended miscarriage (spontaneous abortion) or failure to implant & the purposefully induced abortion, another strawman argument.
CWilson,
It’s not that cut & dry: hospital red tape, regulations, & even careless staff could keep a woman from having her embryo/fetal remains disposed as she desires. Again, I don’t see anyone dictating how a woman should dispose of her embryo/fetus or should feel about it as much as I see people expressing their opinion & concern that they find it disrespectful to use or cremate human remains in such a manner. I am sure seeing a lot of alarmist & logical fallacy responses from the far left.
& hey, if pro-lifers want to hold a small funeral for fetal remains on their own dime, I say let ’em.
Abortion fans whine about holocaust comparisons but here we are, little bodies in the ovens. Don’t like being called Nazis? Get over it.
Thomas R: I think Myers needs to take a page from Richard Dawkins and actually publish on evolutionary biology. He would actually make use of his Ph.D. and make U of M proud….
Reality to Thomas R: – your decision to ignore the facts doesn’t make your claim true.
“reality” your decision to ignore the facts that 1) PZ Myers has failed to publish any original research on evolutionary biology since he was granted his Ph.D. only to 2) concentrate on belittling his colleagues and anyone who disagrees with his take on religion/politics and all matters unrelated to evolutionary biology, DOES NOT negate these facts one iota. Pharmer and David politely brought this to your attention and your decision to ignore it only speaks to your twisted agenda.
Have you ever heard the old saying “don’t rest on your laurels?” Defending a Ph.D. is not a laurel all in itself that suffices for life.
Like I said, Richard Dawkins can most definitely teach ol’ PZ much about what it means to be a published author in one’s field….
I think PZ Myers is, in the title of his post, conflating personal philosophy w/ science.
Are you being purposely obtuse or did you pick & choose which parts of my comment you read & reply to? – not at all Ladybug. I suggest you peruse my comments. You stated that the grieve all menstrual periods argument is irrelevant, it isn’t.
You continue to disregard the facts “thomas r.”. Citing Pharmer and David only makes it worse.
Glad to hear you are a fan of Dawkins though ;-)
I find it amusing that PZ gets accused of conflating philosophy with science.
Reality,
So the best response you can come up with is more or less to go back & read your comments, no substantiation. Nice.
BTW, we’re not the ones arbitrarily defining human life & personhood subjectively based on development & wantedness.
regarding “reality’s” April 1, 2014 at 7:15 pm
Oh no ”reality” you “humanist” you :)
Pharmer and David only pointed out what is readily available on the internet to look up regarding the lack of any original research from PZ Myers. I only made you aware that they brought this to your attention but you ignored it as it contradicted your pro-abortion hero.
Another issue that escaped you “reality” is that I only pointed out that Richard Dawkins publishes in his field unlike PZ Myers’ diatribes unrelated to his Ph.D. That is not an indication I actually agree with Dawkins’ original research on evolutionary biology so for you to make this claim is intellectually dishonest.
In summary, your April 1 post was not so slick an April Fools joke ;)
I found it interesting Ladybug, that Pharmer and David attacked the messenger (myers) rather than the message. They used their own opinions to cast aspersions on him. Naturally they are as entitled to their opinions as anyone is. But that is all they were, opinions.
BTW, we’re not the ones arbitrarily defining human life & personhood subjectively based on development & wantedness. – then what are you using?
Pharmer and David only pointed out what is readily available on the internet to look up regarding the lack of any original research from PZ Myers. – pity they got it wrong then.
I only made you aware that they brought this to your attention but you ignored it as it contradicted your pro-abortion hero. – and why did you feel it necessary to repeat their errors?
Another issue that escaped you “reality” is that I only pointed out that Richard Dawkins publishes in his field unlike PZ Myers’ diatribes unrelated to his Ph.D. – so what? Dawkins makes ‘diatribes’ unrelated to his Ph.D field too, or did you not pick up on that.
That is not an indication I actually agree with Dawkins’ original research on evolutionary biology so for you to make this claim is intellectually dishonest. – oh dear, you caught me out ;-)
In summary, your April 1 post was not so slick an April Fools joke ;) – there are some jokes I know I cannot better :-)
so, live children can be “waste” but their dead bodies can’t be?
I first found this thread through a link from the digital Cuttlefish, an atheist poet. Seems he’s caught it spot on:
“You should make a major issue
Of incinerating tissue
If you don’t, we’ll make you wissue
Had a different point of view!
Cos abortion can’t be easy
And the doctors must be sleazy
So the comments made by PZ
Are a special sort of woo!
If his scientific training
Contradicts what we’re maintaining
Does it really need explaining?
Why, the scientist is wrong!
When the issue is abortion
Then we must preserve proportion—
Give his title some distortion
Just a “blogger” all along
That’s right–PZ Myers got demoted from “Atheist scientist” to “blogger”. By a bunch of people who disagree with him but can’t actually argue with what he says.”