Weekend question
Men’s apologist Mark Rudov wrote the following in an interesting July 19 Men News Daily column, “Obama’s baby mamas,” on the speech “misandrist” Barack Obama should have given on Mother’s Day to balance his chastisement of absentee fathers on Father’s Day:
Unmarried mothers must stop complaining that sperm owners aren’t committed fathers. Here’s a rule of thumb for every unmarried woman: if you have no wedding ring on your finger, assume the man with whom you’re having sex will not hang around post-childbirth. Let that sink in the next time you roll the dice with an innocent child’s future.
Women have 20 methods of birth control from which to choose, according to Planned Parenthood.
Women must stop passing the buck to men. Either men are equally responsible for pregnancy or they’re not. If they are, give them an equal say in all decisions about abortion, adoption, and custody. Otherwise, all unwed mothers should be totally responsible – logistically and financially – for raising their children.
Agree or disagree?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
There is no doubt that, if welfare and child support for unwed mothers were outlawed, the out-of-wedlock birthrate would plummet.
And the abortion rate would skyrocket.
Surely you’re not endorsing this dude’s opinion, are you Jill?
Reality, Rudov made good points. 1) The welfare state has replaced fatherhood. 2) Laws and court decisions making mothers sole determiners of paternal rights/responsibilities have also neutered men. Obama was correct to demand more of fathers, but there’s more to it. Our culture has contributed to their sense of lack of responsibility.
And what do you say about Rudov’s opening statement?
Here’s a rule of thumb for every unmarried woman: if you have no wedding ring on your finger, assume the man with whom you’re having sex will not hang around post-childbirth. Let that sink in the next time you roll the dice with an innocent child’s future.
Furthermore, your conclusion is unfounded. A society demanding women take more responsibility for children they bear may result in less loose women, not more abortions.
I think society should demand more from BOTH men AND women. How many men impregnate a woman and then just walk away because they KNOW they don’t have to have any financial or parent responsibilities? Many women, once learning of their partner’s ambivalence, choose abortion, when they’d rather keep the baby or at the very least go through with the pregnancy.
2) Laws and court decisions making mothers sole determiners of paternal rights/responsibilities have also neutered men.
This is not necessarily the case in Canada. Today if a man presses for custody he has a very good chance of getting custody of his children. I know of a few women who have lost their children to men who were lousy husbands AND fathers, but were able to manipulate the court system. One woman I know lost her 4 kids in such a manner, only to watch as each child turned 14 returned to live with her.
And as for joint parenting I’m not a big fan of that either. If two people can’t get along in a marriage, what makes the courts think that they can get along divorced. This works in low conflict divorces where there never was much in the marriage anyway and the spouses each part willingly.
The welfare state has replaced fatherhood.
If that is so, how is it that fathers today, whether single or married, spend more time with their kids than decades ago?
And what do you say about Rudov’s opening statement?
That wasn’t his opening statement.
Here’s a rule of thumb for every unmarried woman: if you have no wedding ring on your finger, assume the man with whom you’re having sex will not hang around post-childbirth. Let that sink in the next time you roll the dice with an innocent child’s future.
Sounds like he’s gunning for a matrilineal society, in which fathers would have no rights at all unless women choose to marry them.
A society demanding women take more responsibility for children they bear may result in less loose women, not more abortions.
Nonsense, Jill. Even in countries where abortion is illegal, it’s widespread thanks to Cytotec. Abortion is just SO MUCH EASIER than abstinence, so any time you force people to choose between the two, most are going to choose abortion. Why on earth would you want that?
SOMG: Just to inform you, you’ve been banned for 2 weeks on this blog.
Cutting off resources that help single women survive is the key to helping women be more responsible?
….that’s some really backward logic. And it’s pretty sickening.
Bethany: Somg’s comments seemed to be getting really bad lately. I haven’t seen them but there seems to have been many removed lately.
I agree.
Women must stop passing the puck to men. Either men are equally responsible for pregnancy or they’re not. If they are, give them an equal say in all decisions about abortion, adoption, and custody. Otherwise, all unwed mothers should be totally responsible – logistically and financially – for raising their children.
SO, because I didn’t let my daughter’s father talk me into an abortion which HE wanted, I should have to take complete responsibility for a child that is half his regardless?
Plenty of women let the man do that ALL.THE.TIME. You know, talk them into abortions because they don’t want to take responsibility. You want a guy to have an equal say in an abortion? REALLY? I sure as hell don’t. You didn’t want a kid? Maybe you should have thought about that before you dropped your pants. It would really suck if this whole idea of equal say in abortion backfired and caused the abortion rate to go UP. Because I GUARANTEE you, for every 1 or 2 good guys out there who don’t want their girls to have an abortion, there’s at LEAST 20 who have NO PROBLEM getting rid of that kid. It’s unfortunate, but it’s the truth. So NO, I don’t agree.
pip, 1:12 p.m.
I totally agree!
Well, Elizabeth look at what’s happened in Europe and Britain.
It’s very interesting because apparently a man’s right to NOT be a father trumps a woman’s right to BE a mother (crazy sinde they both are already parents) in the case of frozen embryos.
In every case in this area, women have LOST despite being willing to give up any right to support from the father and even having no other chance to EVER be a mother. Even in situations where the man previously agreed to provide his sperm and signed an agreement accepting the birth of his children the man has won out. My guess is that the courts don’t want to force men into making child support payments, especially if they have 4 or 5 kids on ice.
The problem is that no one is looking after the right of these children to be born. Imagine being the father of 5 embryo-children and snuffing them out! Just like that for your selfish reasons. God help us all.
Patricia and Jasper, I personally wouldn’t mind him being permanently banned, but some people are more forgiving than I am.
I have a wacky idea I would like to propose. How about: if you make a child with a person, you take care of the child. WHY, you may ask? Because it’s this crazy little thing called: THE RIGHT THING TO DO. It doesn’t matter whether you’re the father or the mother of that child either. PEOPLE should take care of their children!
The welfare state has replaced fatherhood.
If that is so, how is it that fathers today, whether single or married, spend more time with their kids than decades ago?
Posted by: reality at July 19, 2008 11:51 AM
Men probably spend more time with their kids now because on average men work fewer hours outside the home and mothers work more hours outside the home. So since dad only works five days a week instead of six and gets home at six instead of ten, he has more time.
For the percentage of children who have no involvement from a father, it isn’t any consolation that some kids have more.
Women must stop passing the puck to men. Either men are equally responsible for pregnancy or they’re not. If they are, give them an equal say in all decisions about abortion, adoption, and custody.
That’s hilarious, because it’s IMPOSSIBLE to give a man “equal say” over an abortion. If one party wants the abortion, and the other doesn’t, someone has to lose. Logic and fairness dictate that the party with the most at stake gets the tie-breaking vote.
It’s really ironic to see a so-called “pro-lifer” as prominent as Jill apparently in agreement with a guy who wants to see pro-life women and their children tossed in to the streets for being too “loose.”
It might be good for him/her too. I see that somg posts comments on a number of blogs. So she’ll just go elsewhere for those two weeks. Is my guess.
hippie —
Men probably spend more time with their kids now because on average men work fewer hours outside the home and mothers work more hours outside the home. So since dad only works five days a week instead of six and gets home at six instead of ten, he has more time.
The study found that both single and married fathers spent more time with their kids now than in decades past. Mothers also spend more time with their kids.
“You want a guy to have an equal say in an abortion? REALLY? I sure as hell don’t.”
I don’t want either to have a say, that’s why abortion should be illegal.
I’m going to say disagree. Vehemently so. I agree with PiP and Elizabeth.
Plus- that guy looks like a massive douchebag.
I spend a lot of time on financial boards, and I hear a LOT of complaining about child support.
1. Should women assume that men not their husbands will not stick around if they get pregnant?
I don’t agree with the writer here. Maybe HE would never stick around. But not all men are the same. Some of them have a sense of responsibility. Some of them pretend that they have a sense of responsibility to make themselves appear more attractive. A woman has to make her best judgment of a man’s character based on that specific man. Or they could talk about it, which would also work.
I’d like to add something, though: A woman who is out sleeping with men in the circumstances that the writer describes should take all reasonable precautions against getting pregnant. This is part of her responsibility to her partner. And if she actually wants to get pregnant, she has to tell the guy that that’s what she has in mind so that he can make his decision.
2. Should men have an equal say in all parenting decisions, including abortion?
No. When the fetus is inside the woman’s body, nothing can be done to or for it that is not also done to her. It is possible to separate the man’s rights but it is not possible to separate the woman’s. Only once the baby is born CAN men and women be parents equally. Once that happens, I’m all for it.
Are you REALLY advocating a position that would mean children would suffer because of the actions of their mothers? But at the same time, men have zero responsibility and the idea that they should be able to have sex whenever they want with no strings attached should be reinforced by legislation?
Statistics show that the lower a parent’s income and resources, the higher the infant mortality rate. Removing resources from women because of their decision to have sex means MORE DEAD CHILDREN.
I won’t even comment on what I think it would do to the abortion rate, since that would be speculative, but the facts about infant mortality and income are irrefutable.
So in this case, what would all the sidewalk counselors be telling women to talk them out of abortions?
“You’re on your own, slut (or do you prefer “loosey” Jill?)! Have fun with that, just don’t even think about getting an abortion!!”
Anyone who seriously believes this nonsense is sick or demented.
As a men’s rights activist, I’m glad that someone like Rudov often sticks up for men’s causes, even if he sometimes comes off as brash.
I just wish that some of my fellow MRAs would fight misandry without taking the battle to the unborn. If men and women have a contest to see who can be colder and more casual about the lives of the unborn, no one will win.
Plenty of women let the man do that ALL.THE.TIME. You know, talk them into abortions because they don’t want to take responsibility. You want a guy to have an equal say in an abortion? REALLY? I sure as hell don’t. You didn’t want a kid? Maybe you should have thought about that before you dropped your pants. It would really suck if this whole idea of equal say in abortion backfired and caused the abortion rate to go UP. Because I GUARANTEE you, for every 1 or 2 good guys out there who don’t want their girls to have an abortion, there’s at LEAST 20 who have NO PROBLEM getting rid of that kid. It’s unfortunate, but it’s the truth. So NO, I don’t agree.
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella’s Momma) at July 19, 2008 2:18 PM
…………………………….
You got it Elizabeth. I’ve heard this stuff from a few anti-choice in gestation for women/pro-choice in paying child support for men, males.
The only thing a man contributes to baby making is an ejaculation. Making his sperm, the woman’s property. The woman and her body decide if even one of those spermies will meet an ovum. Only she and her body decide if there will be an implantation and begin a pregnancy. Only she and her body decide if pregnancy is welcome. Gestation envy anyone?
The vast majority of America’s impovrished are women and children. Exactly what responsibility is there left for women to take? To not inconvenience men?
If this man and Jill’s message is that no woman should ever give birth without the ability to support that child on her own….. well……. it’s true in a world where dead beat dad’s are anti-heros. And just another reason that abortion will always be a woman’s choice.
And another thing. Plenty of men convince women to continue pregnancies and/or express great happiness over the prospect of becoming a father only to take a walk when they get bored with being a daddy or wish to spend their money in ways other than supporting children. Wedding ring or no wedding ring. Where is the PL outrage? Oh that’s right. Women are held to a higher sense of responsibility since it’s women’s fault that men sin to begin with for the religionists.
Sally, you are WRONG. Fifty years of research has documented that the safest and healthiest place physically, emotionally, socially and economically for children is the two-parent MARRIED household with that child’s mother and father. You need to read Why Marriage Matters by Glenn T. Stanton (Pinon Press). Even major university research, governments studies and organizations (there is an extensive 13 page section of reseach works cited) found that men, women, and children are happier, healthier, wealthier, live longer, also their households and communities are less violent when headed by stable, committed, two-parent marriages. Our current disdain for marriage, extremely high cohabitation rates (which has contributed to increases in the divorce rate not the opposite), high rates of unwed births and fatherlessness, is combining to cause our country to reap a pathetic outcome of heartbreak and destruction. We could turn this around (The Epilogue of the book) but the anti-marriage, immoral, liberal agenda would hate it. I won’t waste my time arguing about this but will pray for our country, our world and you.
I am 200% pro-choice and agree somewhat with the statement, ‘either men are completely equal in reproductive rights, or not at all’ but I do believe there should not be juristiction (sp) on what happens with someone’s body. What I cannot take – much to the horror of many feminist friends – is when it’s time for two unmarried people to make a decision on child support once a child is born. Never got why it was automatically the man’s responsibility to pay up, if he may not have had any decision in the child’s birth. If your girlfriend can tell she’s pregnant but is having an abortion, then a man should also be able relinquish parental rights to a child that he did NOT choose to have with a woman who decides to keep it. Where I draw the line, again, is with any enforcement of pregnancy (or abortion).
Never got why it was automatically the man’s responsibility to pay up, if he may not have had any decision in the child’s birth.
Danielle, he had his choice along the way, too, it just comes earlier in time than for the woman since the man cannot get pregnant like the woman.
Society is saying that it wants kids supported by the parents, regardless of any disagreements the parents may have had.