Internet back alley abortions
Imagine selling illegal drugs that trigger an illegal, abnormal, potentially life-threatening bodily function with a 10+% failure rate requiring unguaranteed surgical intervention.
I sounded the alarm 3 weeks ago when reading that Women on Waves sells the RU-486 abortion cocktail (mifeprostone with a misoprostol chaser) over the Internet in countries where abortion is illegal.
Now, according to several sources today including Sky News:
Women living in countries where abortion is restricted… are using the internet to buy abortion pills that allow them to have a termination at home.
More than one in 10 customers on one of the most well-known websites needed a surgical procedure after taking the medication, a medical study has found….
Women in more than 70 countries… have used the internet site Women on Web to buy the drugs for £55 ($110) a time.
Women on Web is available in 5 languages and offers the drugs mifepristone and misoprostol; it says a combination of the pills causes the non-surgical termination of a pregnancy and can be used up to the 9th week.
The website says it helps women “gain access to a safe abortion with pills in order to reduce the number of deaths due to unsafe abortions”.
But a study in the British Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology found that 11% of 400 customers went on to need a surgical procedure – either because the drugs had not completed the abortion or because of excessive bleeding.
Added monstersandcritics.com:
However, anti-abortion campaigners said women often understated the period of gestation in order to obtain the medication.
‘This is very worrying indeed. It’s like a cynical form of back-street abortion,’ said Josephine Quintavalle, of anti-abortion campaign group Comment on Reproductive Ethics.
Of course, on both points.
Where are the politicians like both Clintons who spout the “safe, legal, and rare” mantra? These certainly violate 2 of the 3. Where are the feminists so concerned for women’s health?
I’ll answer my own question. These politicians won’t say a word because they’re getting money from the racket making scads of money off this Internet scheme, the feminists. Btw, it seems obvious that Women on Waves and Women on Web are one and the same.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
If these women could get these drugs faster and easier then they wouldn’t have to lie about where they are in their gestation and there would be less complications. These women are obviously desperate to get an abortion. They’re going to do whatever they need to do to get one. We can either imprison every pregnant woman, because even if they say they won’t abort they could always just be lying, or we can help women get legal abortion.
And about the murderer comparison, you can separate a murderer from others. You can’t separate a mother from her unborn baby (I’m referring to say, a 1 or 2 month fetus) unless you abort it.
If a church can be run on the internet then why not a health clinic. it cuts down costs in both cases.
If you’re going to talk about murder why not bring up our men and women in Afganistan and Iraq. Thats a whole lot of murder right there.
I often see RTLs argue that the black markets are much less dangerous than liberals say. Doesn’t this article contradict that argument?
La Virgen de Panecillo is a large aluminum statue of the Virgin Mary which stands on top of a hill (Panecillo Hill) in Ecuador. This group WOW which claims to favor women has hung a banner across the bottom of it with a hot-line phone number for the group. How disrespectful of them to use the statue of the Mother of Jesus in this way. A photo is posted on the web site.
From the Women on Waves site: Quito, Ecuador June 18, 2008
The Virgin de Panecillo revealed a banner with the text
SoMG 4;58: I often see RTLs argue that the black markets are much less dangerous than liberals say. Doesn’t this article contradict that argument?
Never heard that before. I’m sure you have proof ready at hand.
Janet, are you kidding? How many times have people posted on this site the point that Dr. Bernard Nathanson has admitted that his pre-conversion guesses of the lethality of illegal abortion in the USA were wild exaggerations, that the CDC has only documented a small number of abortion-related deaths in 1972, that most illegal abortions before Roe/Wade were done in doctors’ offices? Spend some time searching the archives and you will see.
Those weren’t guesses, they were lies. That was then, this is now. Totally different situations. Don’t you see that?
If a church can be run on the internet then why not a health clinic. it cuts down costs in both cases.
Posted by: Yo La Tango at July 11, 2008 4:53 PM
Uh, doesn’t it cut down on safety, too. I mean doc’s prescribing dangerous drugs that have serious and sometimes fatal effects all without examining the patient. Not exactly safe. Doesn’t meet basic medical safety or ethical standards anywhere.
Churches don’t prescribe drugs. They are more into recommending reading certaing texts, meditation and contemplation.
Illegal abortions prior to 1973 were surgical procedures.
The internet abortions are chemically induced.
This is comparing apples to oranges.
However, the FDA complained loudly to congress that the abortion drugs were not as safe as current surgical procedures and the FDA was practically forced to approve the drugs even though they were not as safe or effective as the methods they would replace.
However the abortion drugs are definitely more profitable because less of a doctor’s time is involved. Using the drugs only 10% need surgery vs. 100% for surgical procedures.
Clearly a big win for drug manufacturers and some doctors.
Clearly not a safety win for women.
Hippie, I’m sorry but you don’t know what you are talking about. First of all, a medical abortion requires at least two office visits rather than one and is therefore less profitable than a surgical abortion. Also, medical abortion (mifepristone/misoprostol or methotrexate/misoprostol) is not more dangerous than surgical abortion; they’re about the same. Finally, when the FDA approved mifepristone its safety and efficacy were well-proven by a record of more than half a million uses abroad.
How to avoid looking like an idiot: learn first; post afterwards.
RU-486 is a dangerous medication–sometimes it’s less dangerous than pregnancy, but it’s still dangerous. Even PP has said that it is too tricky to give to women without a doctor’s care.
It would be better for all concerned if these women could be treated by their doctors.
This is why I’m of the opinion that, if abortion were made illegal in the U.S., we would see an underground market in abortion medications instead of a widespread return to coathangers.
DRF, RU-486 is not a dangerous medication. Sorry to burst your bubble but it’s not.
Other than that I agree with your post: black market abortions in the USA would be largely medical.
DRF: 6;30: This is why I’m of the opinion that, if abortion were made illegal in the U.S., we would see an underground market in abortion medications instead of a widespread return to coathangers.
Good point. So much for the coat hanger frenzy.
Regarding the regulation of imports: IS U.S. CUSTOMS aware of these ILLEGAL imports? Do they even care????
Hippie, I’m sorry but you don’t know what you are talking about. First of all, a medical abortion requires at least two office visits rather than one and is therefore less profitable than a surgical abortion. Also, medical abortion (mifepristone/misoprostol or methotrexate/misoprostol) is not more dangerous than surgical abortion; they’re about the same. Finally, when the FDA approved mifepristone its safety and efficacy were well-proven by a record of more than half a million uses abroad.
An office visit takes a fraction of the time and is cheaper than an abortion, but in the time you can do abortion, you can probably see 6- 8 patients at the office. In addition, the abortuary is making money on incredible price mark-ups on the pills.
We have no clue how accurate the records of medical abortion in Europe really were. After all, the manufacturers were trying to get a product on the market all over the world.
Janet, you wrote: “…in the time you can do abortion, you can probably see 6- 8 patients at the office. ”
Nope. Two at most. And remember, the second office visit (at least) requires ultrasonography.
You wrote: “We have no clue how accurate the records of medical abortion in Europe really were. After all, the manufacturers were trying to get a product on the market all over the world. ”
That’s an amusing conspiracy theory. I bet you’d enjoy the movie COMA (with Mike Douglas, Genevieve Bujold, and a brief appearance by Tom Selleck). However there is one flaw in your idea: the global statistics on medical abortion were not recorded or compiled or reported by drug manufacturers but by health-care providers and government agencies and international agencies.
SoMG: 8:31: However there is one flaw in your idea: the global statistics on medical abortion were not recorded or compiled or reported by drug manufacturers but by health-care providers and government agencies and international agencies.
Oh, and they are always above board on everything they do. No kick-backs, nothing. I think you are naive to think that type of behavior doesn’t exist.
Janet, you wrote: “…in the time you can do abortion, you can probably see 6- 8 patients at the office. “
Nope. Two at most. And remember, the second office visit (at least) requires ultrasonography.
Two? That’s hard to believe. Supposing it is true, the abortuary will still make a good profit on those ultrasonography services and office time and mark-up on the abortion drugs.
Jess, why not offer women real help instead of some dangerous chemicals?
Because it takes too much time and effort and it costs, that’s why. Better to pocket the cash and turn your back on her. That’s been the “prochoice” way since time immemorial.
>>If a church can be run on the internet then why not a health clinic. it cuts down costs in both cases.
“Abortion isn’t health care. It’s killing. ”
It’s both, obviously.
And Janet, it’s AT MOST two. If you really want a number I’d guess an average first-trimester surgical abortion takes about 1.5 times as long as a typical office visit and that’s not counting the time you spend talking with the patient before you start, which brings it up to 2 max.
All that sort of thing–being able to charge extra for ultrasounds and extra office time–is currently let’s say more variable than people think and rapidly disappearing. The way of the near future is at best a fixed fee for the whole abortion experience including taking care of at least minor complications and more likely a fixed amount for generally helping a certain number of patients handle their reproductivity including preventing and providing abortions for a certain period of time. You know, a salary.
“Truthseeker”, also the guy who impregnated her.
Truthseeker, you are a horrible individual.
Truthseeker, you are a horrible individual.
Posted by: Amaranth at July 12, 2008 12:34 AM
Amaranth,
Just looking for the “mother” to take responsibility. Abort once, shame on your ignorance. Abort twice, time to get sterilized.
“Truthseeker”, also the guy who impregnated her.
Posted by: SoMG at July 12, 2008 12:23 AM
SoMG,
If he encouraged the abortion then we are in agreement. You know that I believe a consentually conceived baby is as much the father’s child as the mother’s child.
Aramantha,
Don’t get me wrong. I just would want to discourage a woman who had ten abortions to abstain from sex till she was prepared to nurture a child. I would also want to discourage from taking the abortion pills described in this blogline. What is so horrible about that?
These politicians won’t say a word because they’re getting money from the racket making scads of money off this Internet scheme, the feminists.
O RLY? How much money are the politicians making, Jill? And which ones, exactly?
Maybe you should throw your support behind legal surgical abortion if you don’t want desperate women to turn to illegal ones.
Jess, why not offer women real help instead of some dangerous chemicals?
Real help like a legal abortion? Because forcing someone to have a baby they do not want is not “help.”
You are not “forcing someone to have a baby” when you offer them support, love, compassion and alternatives to the killing of her baby through abortion.
I often wonder if the ones on this blog who are so adamant about abortion have had one themselves, or have been involved with one. Where does the anger come from?
Carla, where then would you say truthseeker’s anger comes from? Some people are just angry people.
I haven’t seen any pro-choicers be really angry in this thread, so I’m not sure if you’re talking about anything specific or what.
Hi Alexandra: Carla’s talking about the whole blog, not this thread. Lot’s of capital letters and exclamation points are usually a good clue. Have a nice day.
Thanks Janet.
Alexandra,
I am speaking about the whole blog. I was commenting out loud. :) I always seek to understand the intent of a comment. I do feel a great bit of righteous anger toward those who think abortion is no big deal or try to deny the reality of my abortion experience. I am angry that thousands of babies are killed everyday and women are hurting. I try not to comment in anger though.
I disagree that “some people are just angry people”
It comes from somewhere.
Truthseeker,
Your comment was phrased in a crass manner, and hence was deleted. Elizabeth, I’m also deleting your comment (since you quoted said comment). God love you both.
That’s okay Bobby. Thanks for removing TS’s comment. My heart doesn’t need a reason to be beating as fast as it was when I read that comment. :)
I disagree that “some people are just angry people”
It comes from somewhere.
Then I find it interesting that there is all this speculation that when pro-choicers get angry it’s because they are damaged by past abortions, but not speculation at all when pro-lifers get angry and call people ‘sluts’ or whatever.
If pro-life anger comes from anger at abortion, maybe pro-choice anger simply comes from anger at people trying to take away abortion.
I didn’t mean to stir up “all this speculation” I was merely wondering.
I cannot speak for all prolifers in their struggle with anger.
In the face of the deaths of thousands of babies every day and the women that have been hurt by it, I can handle a little anger thrown in my direction. I get angry that abortion continues…….
Thanks Alexandra for conversing.
P.S.
I would NEVER call anyone a slut.
Go ahead and delete the truth about abortion cause it is crass. Hide it. The nerve of making someone face the reality of the consequences of thweir choices. Just keep deleting and let them kill in tranquility. Was it the “concept” that you found so offensive or was the use of the `word slut instead of the more politically correct “promiscuity”?
Carla, where then would you say truthseeker’s anger comes from?
Posted by: Alexandra at July 12, 2008 7:52 AM
Ummm… Alexandra, 4000 children are being intentionally killed in their mother’s wombs on a daily basis and my blood is on their heads cause my tax dollars are funding the killing industry known as Planned Parenthood. Any Christian would feel terribly angry about that.
Carla,
The word slut was used in anger. It was still the truth though, according to the dictionary –
“a promiscuous woman”. Women really hate that
word.
I would NEVER call anyone a slut.
I know that, Carla. You’re very sweet and you aren’t a very angry person.
Truthseeker called the hypothetical woman procuring a medical abortion a slut, which I think is pretty indicative of above-average levels of anger. But I figure truthseeker is just an angry person. There is frequent speculation, on this blog and others, that any pro-choice woman who expresses anger is probably post-abortive and having difficulty coming to terms with her abortion — which is invalidating for the woman expressing the emotions. It’s like getting angry and having someone say, “Oh, are you PMSing?” Whether you are or you aren’t, it’s a frustrating thing for someone to say because it disregards the things you’re saying and speculates as to the reason you might feel that way — while ignoring the reasons you DO feel that way. “I’m angry because you were an hour late coming home with no phone call, whether I’m PMSing or not!” ;)
“Where does the anger come from?” It comes from having someone want to take away your right to not donate the use of your body to anyone else, just like your anger comes from other people having abortions.
TS,
I was sexually active, promiscuous, in my teen years. That behavior culminated in STD’s and abortion. I prefer the word promiscuous ya know?
Alexandra,
Are you prochoice? I guess I don’t know that.
I hear you. Odds are we all know someone who has had an abortion…we all have some experience with it. I have had some ENRAGED people in my face(with Silent No More)and come to find that they had one too.
I am not one to make sweeping generalizations either, so I apologize if you took something personally. I didn’t mean for that to happen.
If abortion had been illegal I would have never gotten one. I didn’t have “the right” to kill my baby.
I really appreciate you taking the time to talk. I love civility!! :)
Are you prochoice? I guess I don’t know that.
Yeah, Carla, I’m pro-choice. I wish that you had had access to the help you needed to avoid having an abortion. I’ve seen how much you regret it and it breaks my heart for you, but I’m glad that you have found a way to move forward and not let the pain consume you.
I’m a fan of civility, myself! ;)
Saying people are “slutting around” is NOT the truth about abortion, Truthseeker.
I find it very interesting that you have to have posts deleted frequently because you can’t engage in a debate without being crude and using disgusting language.
You can say someone is promiscuous or engages in casual sex, and THAT can be the truth too. Why don’t you go over to Amanda Marcotte’s blog? You could have a field day over there with all your foul language cause they looooove it!
Alexandra and Carla,
Yay for civility and productive debate!!
Thank you, Alexandra. What a sweet thing to say.
In some ways I am grateful for the pain and regret of abortion. I shudder to think where I would be today if I kept on the path I was on. My brokenness brought me to Christ. I am sure you can see what drives me to help other women who regret their abortions as well.
So tell me about being prochoice, Alexandra. I used to be sorta, so I get it on some level, but wonder what it means to you.
Hi Elizabeth!! How’s sweet pea??
Hi Carla! She’s doing really good! Her guardian angels are working overtime lately because 2 days ago, she pulled a shelf with a bunch of glass things over on herself, and yesterday she fell down the stairs. All she has is a little scratch and bruise on her shoulder. I got a decade or so knocked off my age expectancy though.
Glad she is ok! It is so hard isn’t it?? #4 is a walking bruise. He fell down some wood stairs over Thanksgiving and I honestly shook for hours afterward. Aaaaahhhh!
It’s horrrrible, because they do soo many things that are crazy and don’t get hurt, but THEN, there are those times when something happens so fast you can’t even stop it! She was following me up the stairs even though I told her to sit on the bottom step and wait for me cause I was coming right back down, and as she was not listening to me and walking up, I turned around to stop her and as I was walking back down, her little leg slipped and she went tumbling. I couldn’t even catch her! She was crying, but only cause she was scared, thank heavens!
Alexandra+Carla=win.
My mom said she was surprised my head turned out more-or-less normal shaped, with as many times as I fell on it as a kid.
Alexandra,
aybe you could give me a better name for a woman who has sex when she is not ready to have a baby so she has an abortion.
I can think of several.
Killer of children.
How about purveyor of evil.
How body Satan’s handmaid.
I could go on and on for you, but lets hear what you would call her. And ya. I am angry as hell that people rip those children into bloody piece.
Why don’t you or G’sMom give me a name for a woman who thinks abortion is just collateral damage so they can have sex without responsibility. Your ranting political correctness makes me want to puke because it is so much more important to you then stopping the slughter of children. Go back to your cave where you can continue to live in your fairyland. Some of us have to deal with reality.
My apologies G’sMom. That should have been directed at the other Elizabeth’s post. What they call civility in debate, I call turning your back on the slaughter of children.
TS,
“Was it the “concept” that you found so offensive or was the use of the `word slut instead of the more politically correct “promiscuity”?”
Of course there was nothing offensive about the comment. It was the use of the word “slut”; not because it isn’t PS, but because it is vulgar and was used in a vulgar way.
Not one one-hundreth as vulgar as the slaughter of the children that those “prmiscuos women” engage in so they can continue in their “promiscuity”. I ask you then Bobby, give me a name, other then ignorant slut, I can use for a woman who thinks abortion is just collateral damage so they can have sex without responsibility. I’ll be happy to accomodate.
“Not one one-hundreth as vulgar as the slaughter of the children that those “prmiscuos women” engage in so they can continue in their “promiscuity”.”
I agree. But that doesn’t give us the right to stoop to the level of vulgarity.
“Bobby, give me a name, other then ignorant slut, I can use for a woman who thinks abortion is just collateral damage so they can have sex without responsibility. I’ll be happy to accomodate.”
You just said it yourself, TS; “a woman who thinks abortion is just collateral damage so they can have sex without responsibility.” That’s a great description of what you wanted to say in your comment. And it’s better because it describes exactly what kind of women you have in mind.
It’s just that word, the F word, many words used to describe genitalia, etc. I count all among vulgar words. That’s all. It has nothing to do with hurting people’s feelings or being PC. I just simply consider it vulgar.
aybe you could give me a better name for a woman who has sex when she is not ready to have a baby so she has an abortion.
Well, seeing as how there are many, many different women who fit that label, and not even all of them engage in behavior that falls under your own supplied definition of ‘promiscuity,’ why not just call her by her name? If a woman is engaging in risky sexual behavior she needs help, and she’s unlikely to accept it from someone calling her a slut, even if that person believes they’re justified in doing so.
Carla —
So tell me about being prochoice, Alexandra. I used to be sorta, so I get it on some level, but wonder what it means to you.
To me it’s mostly about believing that no one should be required to donate the use of their body to another person. I’m not really sure what else to say without kicking off a debate that would call to mind the purgatory debate from a few months ago, haha.
I love how TS blames other people for his inability to maintain a mature discussion without calling people names or being crude and offensive. You think what OTHER people does justifies YOUR behavior? That’s fine, it makes you mad/angry/downright psychotic at the thought of people having abortions. You REALLLLLY don’t think it evokes the very same emotions from others on here? Well TS, you’re fooling yourself if you think THAT. I GUARANTEE you that you will save NO babies by saying women who are thinking about abortion are just wanting to “slut around.”
You know what *I* would call a girl/woman who has sex with numerous people without any sort of commitment and has an abortion or several abortions? I’ve got a name for you, TS, are you ready for it? I would call her LOST. She is lost in this life, because if she weren’t, she wouldn’t continue to put herself in situations she is not equipped to handle. Only people who are LOST do that to themselves. So you can look at her, and get angry, and call her a slut if you want. I will look at her and cry because of how very tragic it is that a person is failing to live up to the potential that is inside them. That we ALL have inside of us. Just like I feel about you sometimes..you have such an opportunity to be compassionate and help people with your words/actions, and you’re wasting it on spreading your “truth” which is really just anger and bitterness in disguise.
Bobby, 7:24 p.m.
Me too. I don’t see the need for vulgarity in any way. It’s just unnecessary.
SoMG, 7:41 p.m. that is mean. Even for you.
SoMG, of course, you saw the deletion of your comment coming.
G’sMom, your sounding more than a little Obamanesque. You want to go through this life in a world where children get slaughtered by uncaring nmother’s and call them LOST. What if they don’t agree with you G’sMom. And what if your daughter ends up thinking abortion is o.k. because her mommy never told her the people that kill their children in the womb are BAD people. You know you reap what you sew. And as far as your calling me full of hatred and bitterness, it is true, but it is NOT hatred and bitternes for the women suffering through abortion so don’t even try and twist it into that. You would love to be able to characterize me that way so that you could go on being lukewarm about the slaughter. The fact is I care more about those women then you do. And that is why it makes me angry and bitter when they pay to have their babies torn out of their wombs. You want to go through your life without confronting the evil I won;t blame you G’sMom. It is a dirty job that is wrought with evil and danger that seeps into your very soul. Not everybody can and I don;t hold it against you. But careful who you call unkind or full of hate towards others cause the Holy Spirit will be the judge.
“Not one one-hundreth as vulgar as the slaughter of the children that those “prmiscuos women” engage in so they can continue in their “promiscuity”.”
I agree. But that doesn’t give us the right to stoop to the level of vulgarity.
Posted by: Bobby Bambino at July 12, 2008 7:24 PM
Understood Bobby, it could be offensive, but like you said, it less that 1/100th as vulgar as what they expose us to by their action every day.
I love how TS blames other people for his inability to maintain a mature discussion without calling people names or being crude and offensive. You think what OTHER people does justifies YOUR behavior?
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella’s Momma) at July 12, 2008 7:36 PM
G’sMom, I didn;t call any “person” a name. I used the word to describe a behaviour without personalizing it. There is a big difference. And since when didn’t other peoples action count toward justifying how you treat them?
Elizabeth (G’s Momma) and Carla, , I’m glad to hear your little ones are OK! I understand your point about compassion, and E., I know you are not in favor of abortion!
What are you talking about TS?
You are making no sense at all…which shouldn’t surprise me, and yet..it does.
What about Carla? She had an abortion…is she a BAD person?
There are so many contradictions in your statement I’m not sure where to start. But I’ll try.
“You want to go through this life in a world where children get slaughtered by uncaring mother’s and call them LOST.”
“for the women suffering through abortion so don’t even try and twist it into that”
Here is your first contradiction: How can these women who are SO uncaring be SUFFERING from abortion? They’re willing participants aren’t they? People who don’t care about anything but themselves aren’t suffering, so you contradict yourself within about 2 sentences of each other.
Lukewarm about the slaughter? You care more about these women than I do?
:laughs:
You are tooooooo funny TS! I have got to give you credit on that!
YES, I’m so LUKEWARM about the slaughter that when FACED with my own unplanned pregnancy by the biggest loser on the planet and with friends who cried at me because I wouldn’t have an abortion, I DIDN’T HAVE AN ABORTION. And I’m SOOOOO LUKEWARM about the slaughter that I take my daughter out there to protest at the abortion clinics at the tender little age of 2 with those graphic abortion signs and all. AND that I help out all my single mom friends who are much worse off than I am. The ONLY reason my one friend had ANYTHING for her kid when she was born is because I got it for her! But I’m SOOOO lukewarm about the slaughter. You’re right, TS, you’ve got me pegged.
And just so you know, she’ll know abortion IS NOT okay. But NOT because the BAD PEOPLE have abortions, that because KILLING a baby is WRONG! That she doesn’t NEED abortion in any way, shape, or form if she ever finds herself in the situation of an unplanned pregnancy, because she has a mother who’s been there, and knows what she’s going through, and will stand behind her, NO MATTER WHAT, just like my mom and dad did for me.
THAT, Ts, is how you stop people from having abortions. NOT by calling them sluts.
Thanks Janet!
It’s like if I’m not okay with calling abortive mothers sluts, then I’m OKAY with abortion.
Whatever!
Well, seeing as how there are many, many different women who fit that label, and not even all of them engage in behavior that falls under your own supplied definition of ‘promiscuity,’ why not just call her by her name? If a woman is engaging in risky sexual behavior she needs help, and she’s unlikely to accept it from someone calling her a slut, even if that person believes they’re justified in doing so.
Posted by: Alexandra at July 12, 2008 7:25 PM
Alexandra,
It would be quite impossible to call her by her name since I wasn;t directing to any indidual. It was used to desribe a behaviour. Do you see the difference?
Bobby,
In my comment I used to describe a behaviour. I could see you deleting my comment as offensive if I had directed toward an individual but there was no personal attack involved. But peace to you in the name of Jesus Christ. I certainly have no problem with you or the fact that you deleted a post you found to be offensive. But you sure gave G’sMom ammunition to attack me for my “multiple” posts that are being deleted. LOL
I think Iv’e been on this blog for like eight months now and I have had all of two posts deleted.
Bobby didn’t give me any ammunition TS. You calling people sluts did. Just to clarify. :)
Regarding the regulation of imports: IS U.S. CUSTOMS aware of these ILLEGAL imports? Do they even care????
That should have read “exports” not imports.
Peace to you too, TS.
Also, this was the first comment of yours that I have deleted.
Here is your first contradiction: How can these women who are SO uncaring be SUFFERING from abortion? They’re willing participants aren’t they? People who don’t care about anything but themselves aren’t suffering, so you contradict yourself within about 2 sentences of each other.
G’sMom, did you ever consider that people can suffer greatly from their choices even when they do not regret their choice at the time. I see any woman who has an abortion as suffering because hse is scarring herself spiritually wether she realizes it or not. If you see a contradiction in what I said then you must not believe abortion is a wrong choice.
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella’s Momma) at July 12, 2008 8:13 PM
YES, I’m so LUKEWARM about the slaughter that when FACED with my own unplanned pregnancy by the biggest loser on the planet and with friends who cried at me because I wouldn’t have an abortion, I DIDN’T HAVE AN ABORTION. And I’m SOOOOO LUKEWARM about the slaughter that I take my daughter out there to protest at the abortion clinics at the tender little age of 2 with those graphic abortion signs and all. AND that I help out all my single mom friends who are much worse off than I am. The ONLY reason my one friend had ANYTHING for her kid when she was born is because I got it for her! But I’m SOOOO lukewarm about the slaughter. You’re right, TS, you’ve got me pegged.
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella’s Momma) at July 12, 2008 8:13 PM
G’sMom. You are not lukewarm to the prospect of killing your own baby. I was referring to your being lukewarm about other women deciding to kill their babies. Does it fill you with with and anger or bitterness knowing that other women kill their babies?
You again did not address what I actually said TS.
You say the women who have abortions are uncaring. HOW can someone be an uncaring person and SUFFER from anything? People who DON’T CARE don’t SUFFER. So OBVIOUSLY women who have abortions CARE and DO SUFFER. THAT is the contradiction. You can’t say someone who doesn’t care suffers, because that is a contradiction. Got it? (Caps for emphasis)
And really, don’t put words in my mouth..did you read the REST of that post..or did you just pull out the part that suits you? I don’t believe abortion is the right choice EVER, but I don’t believe calling a behavior or groups of people sluts accomplishes my goal of getting people to see that abortion is wrong.
I’m not lukewarm about that either, TS. But I guess you missed all the other stuff I wrote about how I protest, and help single moms out. I like how if I don’t think calling people sluts or even their behavior slutty (just because I think there are better terms because THERE ARE) that I’m lukewarm about abortion. You make the most interesting correlations, I must say.
What about Carla? She had an abortion…is she a BAD person?
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella’s Momma) at July 12, 2008 8:13 PM
Definitely not G’sMom. Carla ROCKS and she is one of, if not THE kindest heart on this blog. Carla has found forgiveness through Jesus Christ. And the depths of her forgiveness are magnified by the repentance she shows by her daily actions and her time on this blog. That was really a silly question.
I’m not lukewarm about that either, TS. But I guess you missed all the other stuff I wrote about how I protest, and help single moms out. I like how if I don’t think calling people sluts or even their behavior slutty (just because I think there are better terms because THERE ARE) that I’m lukewarm about abortion. You make the most interesting correlations, I must say.
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriellas Momma) at July 12, 2008 8:40 PM
The reason I made the correlation is because you
attacked me as a hateful and bitter person because I get angry that abortion is condoned as an acceptable practice. And get off your SLUT kick already. And quit trying to make it sound like I attacked somebody personally. I described a promiscuos behaviour as being slutty. Why don’t you try looking it up in the dictionary. Or better yet, come up with a new ford if you find the already accepted word in the dictionary to be too offensive. Again, Being slutty is being promiscuos no matter how offensive you find it to be. I didn;t use the term to try and convert all promisuous women to the pro-life cause. I was making a correlation between promiscuos behaviour without responsibility and sluttiness. Quit getting your undies in such a knot over it. I didn’t insult anyone. It wasn’t directed at anyone. It was used to refer to the practice defined by the word when refenced in Webster’s dictionary. And if I can borrow a phrase from Gera, “take it up with them if you have a problem with it.”
You say the women who have abortions are uncaring. HOW can someone be an uncaring person and SUFFER from anything? People who DON’T CARE don’t SUFFER. So OBVIOUSLY women who have abortions CARE and DO SUFFER. THAT is the contradiction. You can’t say someone who doesn’t care suffers, because that is a contradiction. Got it? (Caps for emphasis)
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriellas Momma) at July 12, 2008 8:35 PM
I covered that already for you, but I’ll repost in case you missed it.
G’sMom, did you ever consider that people can suffer greatly from their choices even when they do not regret their choice at the time. I see any woman who has an abortion as suffering because hse is scarring herself spiritually wether she realizes it or not. If you see a contradiction in what I said then you must not believe abortion is a wrong choice.
Posted by: truthseeker at July 12, 2008 8:30 PM
And now if I can finish venting:
AAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
Don’t mess with the babies on my watch. You won’t like it when I’m angry.
Whatever, Ts…the fact that it was a deleted comment speaks for itself anyway.
Bobby didn’t give me any ammunition TS. You calling people sluts did. Just to clarify. :)
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriellas Momma) at July 12, 2008 8:25 PM
And follow it up with…drum roll please…
Whatever, Ts…the fact that it was a deleted comment speaks for itself anyway.
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella’s Momma) at July 12, 2008 9:23 PM
Uhhh…I commented on your original comment BEFORE it got deleted TS. That’s how I know what you said. Duhh.
Bobby’s deletion of the comment didn’t MAKE it crude or vulgar to me. It was already crude and vulgar.
Spoken like a true nonsensical liberal Democrat.
How can I possibly reply to such crafty spin on logic. ROTFLWTIME
What are you talking about TS?
I’m not a liberal Democrat. I vote Republican buddy, but nice try.
You know what they say about ASSumptions?
Well, you just proved that so congratulations!
G’sMom,
Quit trying to bs your way through this before you step in more of your crap. The time line in the posts shows both of those comments followed well after the initial comment was deleted. Your first comment said:
Bobby didn’t give me any ammunition TS. You calling people sluts did. Just to clarify. :)
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriellas Momma) at July 12, 2008 8:25 PM
then you followed it up with:
Whatever, Ts…the fact that it was a deleted comment speaks for itself anyway.
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella’s Momma) at July 12, 2008 9:23 PM
Then you try to spin your way out of it by referring to the fact that you read the post before it was deleted……Duhhh
Out of humility I am going to quit slamming your head into the wall here. Thanks for voting Republican and God bless you G’sMom :
DUDE, Bobby deleted MY comment AFTER it because I QUOTED you. GO UP AND READ IT!
o.k. G’sMom. Whatever that has to do with anything. Just don’t be so eager to jump on me next time cause I really don’t enjoy seeing a pro-lifer look like such a fool. :))
“Your comment was phrased in a crass manner, and hence was deleted. Elizabeth, I’m also deleting your comment (since you quoted said comment). God love you both.”
This was Bobby’s comment at 10:46 a.m. in case you missed it.
So I HAD responded to your original comment before it got deleted.
“The time line in the posts shows both of those comments followed well after the initial comment was deleted”
“o.k. G’sMom. Whatever that has to do with anything.”
THAT’S what it has to do with.
Are you drunk or something or can you REALLY not remember what you actually write?
Geez, this is like arguing with my 2 1/2 year old, except she’s a lot quicker than you.
You’re trying to make me look like the idiot who makes no sense when really, that’s YOU.
And I’ll jump on you whenever you use offensive language. You said you understood when Bobby told you his reasoning, but MINE which is the EXACT SAME REASONING, you argue. Whatev.
G’sMom,
1) Bobby is a girl.
2) Bobby was repectful in her disagreement and didn’t attack me with comments like
“spreading your “truth” which is really just anger and bitterness in disguise.”
The peace of the Lord be with you always.
Oh really, TS, Bobby’s a girl? Cause Bobby’s my friend on facebook, and I’m pretty sure that’s not true.
I thought she was from a previous post. Glad you could clarify that for me.
No problem.
What about point #2?
I’m definitely a male… either that or I’m living in sin! :)
@ Bobby: What you’re a girl!?? When did the change happen. Boy are the ladies in your life gonna be U P S E T!
I see you’ve been busy deleting comments all night!
I thought you were a male when I first came on the blog and I was actuallt surprised when I saw a post that made me think you were actually a girl. I wonder if G’sMom has the courage to answer about point #2 above though.
Geez, this is like arguing with my 2 1/2 year old, except she’s a lot quicker than you.
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella’s Momma) at July 12, 2008 9:56 PM
Only your two year old knows people who kill babies ARE bad people until they repent and change their evil ways.
Hi Carla! She’s doing really good! Her guardian angels are working overtime lately because 2 days ago, she pulled a shelf with a bunch of glass things over on herself, and yesterday she fell down the stairs. All she has is a little scratch and bruise on her shoulder. I got a decade or so knocked off my age expectancy though.
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella’s Momma) at July 12, 2008 4:00 PM
CAn relate totally. My son Vince handcuffed himself, fell down the stairs and broke his wrist, broke his write snowboarding, sliced his cheek open, sliced his hand open, use to climb out the second story bedroom window onto the roof, climbed huge trees and couldn’t get down numerous times – to name just a few things. He’s 18 now. I can’t believe he’s lived that long with so little damage. And I have very few white hairs. you’ll get use to it!!
I note you used “guardian angels” – yes some kids have more than one because they are too much work for just one angel! :-D
T.S. If you will look at the sequence of comments, my VERY first response to your comment (the one that wasn’t deleted) didn’t include anything about you being bitter and angry. It did however say you can’t seem to control your language at times, which is true.
You chose to respond by saying “not as vulgar as the slaughter of children.” Which may be true, BUT in this discussion, is rude and offensive. So even when I didn’t “attack” you personally, you still continued to argue and defend your behavior. I’m sure you can see how that becomes frustrating after a while, and while you may take my calling your comments bitter and angry as an attack, it is merely my opinion of the things you say, not necessarily the person that you are.
If you are not particularly angry at abortive mothers, you sure have a heck of a way of showing it. Promiscuous behavior, irresponsible actions, casual, unsafe sex are all terms to describe what you think is the behavior they engage in, and YET, you chose the term “slut around.” This is not because it is the truest, but because it is the most shocking and offensive. If your intent really was not to offend or be disgusting, then you failed in that aspect. I can only take from your offensive language that you are extremely angry at abortive mothers, and while I sympathize with the feeling because it is beyond my comprehension that someone can take part in getting rid of their baby, I do not find the term “slut around” appropriate.
After this response, I will NOT be commenting on THIS particular part of the conversation anymore. If you wish to respond, that’s fine, but I will not be responding to any more comments you make on your offensive remark. It’s over, the comment was deleted, I’m moving on. I hope you will do the same.
Have a nice night.
Patricia,
I keep telling Gabriella that her guardian angels are getting tired of working overtime!
Your son sounds like he was a handful! I’ve heard boys are more hyper-active than girls in that respect, and get into a lot more trouble, so I’m glad I have a girl!
You chose to respond by saying “not as vulgar as the slaughter of children.” Which may be true, BUT in this discussion, is rude and offensive.
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriellas Momma) at July 13, 2008 12:15 AM
What about THIS discussion makes it rude and offensive to call abortion the slaughter of children? Will the real G’sMom please take two steps forward. How can a person claim to be pro-life and protest in front of abortion clinics and say that calling abortion the slaughter of children is rude and offensive?
No TS, I said the slut around comment was rude and offensive, NOT the one you’re talking about.
G’sMom,
My two and half year old daughter was with me and my eight year old daughter and my thirteen year old son on the “Face the Truth Tour” today. That’s right, even my two and half year old knows that people who kill babies are evil. Not an unforgivable sin, but the evil of abortion will consume them unles/until they repent and have a change of heart about what the unrighteousness of what they have done. For the rest there is Racael’s Vineyard and a lot of loving people waiting to accept them with open arms.
thats Rachel’s Vineyard.
hopeafterabortion.com
(888)456-HOPE
That’s very nice TS.
My 2 1/2 year old knows that killing babies is evil too.
Actually, we don’t talk about killing babies that much together at this point. It’s all coloring books and kiddie pools for us. I’m waiting til she’s at least 3 to bring up aborted babies. :)
Surprisingly, I always knew abortion was wrong and terrible, and my momma never took me to see bloody aborted baby pictures.
No TS, I said the slut around comment was rude and offensive, NOT the one you’re talking about.
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriellas Momma) at July 13, 2008 12:32 AM
Here is what you said G’sMom:
You chose to respond by saying “not as vulgar as the slaughter of children.” Which may be true, BUT in this discussion, is rude and offensive.
The comment you were referring to was in fact the “not as vulgar as the slaughter of children” comment. Honesty in discussion can earn you a lot more respect then trying to twist what you say so as to never have to admit you were wrong.
That is good that you always knew it was wrong. My girls know too.
When my two and half year old agirl sked what the signs were pictures of I told her they were babies that were hurt and we are trying to get people to help them.
My eight year old girl already has a real understanding how awful abortion is and feeling a genuine desire to change the hearts of people who choose death. Sometimes people would drive by and flip us the finger and I would tell her that those people are probably feeling the hurt of bad choices they made in the past so they are striking out.
My thirteen year old boy is not even phased by the pictures. He is very mature for his age. I had mentioned the Truth Tour to him last week and today it was actually his encouragement that got me off the couch when he asked me to take him out on the Truth tour.
Hey TS,
I appreciate the kind words up there HOWEVER(you ready?)a couple of things bother me.
I am wondering about the calling of people evil and bad. I believe Satan is the Father of Lies and abortion is based on lies and cannot stand. We all sin.
I have yet to read a comment by you about THE MEN that were involved in an unplanned pregnancy and could very well have forced a woman into an abortion or disappeared all together leaving her alone. I was abortion vulnerable and would never have had one if I weren’t alone in my decision.
My heart aches for women who have aborted and right now are struggling in their desire to reach out toward abortion recovery. Your words are read by millions each month and I would hate to have someone feel more shame than they already do. I am glad you printed the Rachel’s Vineyard #.
Here’s another one
National Helpline for Abortion Recovery
1-866-482-LIFE
My desire is to gather all of these sisters together and raise our voices to the skies that ABORTION HURTS WOMEN. It is why I am here.
I believe your heart is in the right place.
Hi Alexandra!!
What brought you to the prochoice position? Why do you come to this blog? Where did our conversation go? :)
Truthseeker,
I was at the Truth Tour today? I didn’t see anyone with a 2 1/2 year old. Did you go to the first stop? I’m so bummed I missed you! Dang! I was looking for anyone that might have been from Jills.
I stood next to Dan Gura on Harlem, just north of Milwaukee. Where were you???
“I thought you were a male when I first came on the blog and I was actuallt surprised when I saw a post that made me think you were actually a girl.”
That’s funny, TS. Do you remember what it was?
TS,
I am NOT being dishonest. I AM telling you what I meant. Believe me, don’t believe me, I really don’t care. It’s not my fault you have reading comprehension problems.
Think about it for a second. This whollllllle time the only thing I’ve had a problem with was the “slut around” comment. WHY would I have a problem with you saying that it’s the slaughter of innocent children? HELLO! IT IS! I THINK SO TOO. That’s NOT what I had a problem with. Maybe that sentence was a little confusing for you in the way it was worded. I can understand that. Do you REALLY believe that I would be out there protesting and even on this site if I didn’t think abortion was the slaughter of innocent children? REALLY?
I was at the Truth Tour today? I didn’t see anyone with a 2 1/2 year old. Did you go to the first stop? I’m so bummed I missed you! Dang! I was looking for anyone that might have been from Jills.
I stood next to Dan Gura on Harlem, just north of Milwaukee. Where were you???
Posted by: mk at July 13, 2008 7:17 AM
mk,
We made it to the Lincolnwood stop and were about a mile south of Toughy on the west side of the street from 3-4:30.
Actually it was probably closer to a half mile South of Touhy. The “staff” moved everybody else down cause I was in a cast and had problems getting around due to recent ankle surgery.
“I thought you were a male when I first came on the blog and I was actuallt surprised when I saw a post that made me think you were actually a girl.”
That’s funny, TS. Do you remember what it was?
Posted by: Bobby Bambino at July 13, 2008 7:20 AM
No I don’t Bobby. It was probably something as innocuous as a post where somebody called you a her and you didn’t correct them in your reply. I just remember being surprised when I mistakenly came to think that you were really a “girl”. :)
Maybe that sentence was a little confusing for you in the way it was worded. I can understand that.
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriellas Momma) at July 13, 2008 10:26 AM
Not just confusing for me G’sMom. Anybody other than you who read it would have thought you meant what you actually wrote. It was definitely misleading/confusing the way YOU wrote it. Funny, that is the closest you have ever come to admitting you were wrong, to say you understand how something you wrote could have been confusing to me. LOL
I have yet to read a comment by you about THE MEN that were involved in an unplanned pregnancy and could very well have forced a woman into an abortion or disappeared all together leaving her alone. I was abortion vulnerable and would never have had one if I weren’t alone in my decision.
Posted by: Carla at July 13, 2008 6:45 AM
Carla, the fathers of these children are absolutely, positively as responsible as the women for every abortion that happens if they are indifferent to, or encourage the mother of their child to commit abortion. It is a sad truth that they are not getting a LOT more heat for their actions. I guess they get a free pass cause it is the woman’s legal decision wether or not to abort, when in actuality they are less receptive to responsibility for a new life then the woman is. But God does not judge by the law but by what is in a persons heart. It is likely that often a man convinces a woman to commit abortion, even though she would rather have the baby. I don’t see most of the father’s walking into the abortuary with their women and holding their hands and comforting them. And these women don’t want to have a baby with a man who doesn’t want any part of her or the child. In this case that man is every bit as responsible for the abortion as the woman and he will not have the same free pass on judgement day unless he finds repentance. And my heart goes out to women in these circumstances.
I was wrong to say that women who kill babies ARE evil. Many, if not most, do not realize what they are doing and only God can see through to her mindset at the time she commits abortion. And thank you Carla for believing my heart is in the heart place. I would give the shirt off my back to help these women choose life if I could.
What brought you to the prochoice position? Why do you come to this blog? Where did our conversation go? :)
Ha, I just think it will probably start some big fight. ;)
I’ve been pro-choice since I was about 16 or so. I didn’t take a stance before then because I took a few years to take in all the information I was getting from a variety of sources. For a couple years in college I volunteered helping women in crisis pregnancies, and I worked about as much with CPCs as I worked with the local Planned Parenthood — helping women get in contact with and actually physically get to the places that would give them the help they wanted. I did not work at PP or at a CPC, just to be clear — I worked with a separate organization to help women access these resources, ie transportation, information, etc.
I don’t remember how I first came to this blog, but I’ve been lurking and occasionally posting for a while. I post less when my workload is insane, more when it’s light — I freelance, so my job schedule varies. I enjoy reading points of view that I don’t agree with because I feel like it’s the only way to know for sure that I think what I do. If I read and fully consider alternate points of view but don’t change my mind — or do — then I know that I at least am not just making a choice based on the knowledge people chose to give me at any given time, but that I am instead making a choice based on whatever knowledge I could seek out.
Hm, I’m not really sure what else to say! I’m 25 years old, very short (5 feet tall), the middle of three daughters, and I live in NYC. And that’s me in a nutshell! ;)
Patricia,
I keep telling Gabriella that her guardian angels are getting tired of working overtime!
Your son sounds like he was a handful! I’ve heard boys are more hyper-active than girls in that respect, and get into a lot more trouble, so I’m glad I have a girl!
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriellas Momma) at July 13, 2008 12:18 AM
If only you knew Elizabeth! My girls are great! Although, the middle one has the same personality as Vince (my son!). Both are very musically gifted, shy and very intelligent. They even have the same body type. It’s like I got a male and female version of the same person!!!
Alexandra; did you go to college and if so what did you major in(arts, sciences ??)
Welcome!
Sorry TS, sometimes I write the way I talk in normal conversation so that could have been why that sentence was confusing. I figured since you were so involved in the conversation as well that you would have known which comment I was talking about. Myyyy bad.
Patricia,
I can’t wait til I’m married and have more kids so I can really see the differences in personality between children. My daughter even at 2 1/2 is so eclectic in all her interests. She loves singing and dancing around (probably because she always sees her uncles dancing on stage), loves animals/nature, and she also LOVES sports too(which I attribute to the males in the house as well). It will be interesting to see where her interests will take her in life!
Alexandra; did you go to college and if so what did you major in(arts, sciences ??)
Welcome!
Thanks for the welcome. I’ve been here for a while but I pop in and out so it’s easy to not realize it!
I majored in English, though I considered going to a music conservatory. My dream is to be a librarian but that’s quite a ways away, and that’s not the field I currently work in, though I do love and enjoy my current line of work.
Well, I am a librarian Alexandra! I’m in Canada however. Don’t know what the job market is like down there, but here it is very hard to get full time work.
Did you study music and do you play any instruments?
here it is very hard to get full time work
Patricia, Fort McMurray, Alberta. You’re laffin’
Awesome, Patricia! I’m jealous.
I studied the piano from age 3 until I left for college, but I was more serious about the cello, which I began studying when I was in elementary school. I talked to Bobby about it a little bit at the end of this thread, too: http://tinyurl.com/5qurm4
If you want to see how petite I am, here is a picture of me “helping” the 3-year old ringbearer in my sister’s wedding. Granted I’m bending over slightly — but only ever so slightly. ;)
http://tinyurl.com/5pxxc8
Alexandra,
Hurrah! A picture! Now give us one for the blog! PLEEEEEAAAASE! for the “snap-who are we” page.
Ha, mk, I have so few pictures of my face! There’s this monstrosity, but I’m intentionally making a hideous face and wearing ugly shorts:
http://tinyurl.com/5j55b5
And this one, also from the wedding, but I’m drunk and hiding behind a candlestick:
http://tinyurl.com/5fm8ww
And in this one, yet again from the wedding, I’m apparently hiding behind a watermark:
http://tinyurl.com/6cwhno
Hmmmmm. I’ll look for a better one.
Hi Alexandra,
I am 5’4 and the middle of 3 daughters. You are the cutest!!
Stick around please. :)
Oh, and I waved goodbye to 25 years ago!!!
here it is very hard to get full time work
Patricia, Fort McMurray, Alberta. You’re laffin’
Posted by: Doug at July 13, 2008 5:58 PM
been there done that – as a geologist in Calgary.
@Alexandra: I play violin and piano.
My daughter Becca plays both and is much much more accomplished than myself. She’s gonna be a very accomplished pianist by the looks of things. She will likely study music at university. We are hoping that she will perform her first concert next year, but who is to know. She’s a Bach girl but recently won classes in competitions for her Beethoven. She’s working on a piece by Turina (actually it’s learned) for a competition this fall.
Becca studied ballet but had to quit because of financial problems. She’s petite like you (and me!).
Ah cello. Such a wonderful instrument.
I’m all for any of those three Alexandra. You’re sooooooo cute! I actually love the last one!
Did anybody read the comments on the website from women who have had abortions? Some are heartbreaking. There are, of course, women who feel relieved, happy, etc., after having the procedure, but others were sad, depressed, and even angry. Some felt coerced by boyfriends or parents; others lived in very conservative cultures where women are expected to be virgins when they are married (this, of course, does not apply to the men) so they felt compelled to abort. Others mentioned that in their countries single moms were ostracized (I guess they are thought of as being “sluts” — oooh, how I hate that word)! I didn’t read all the comments, of course, but no one mentioned adoption. I assume that in some countries it’s just not common practice. Sad.
Anon: Did anybody read the comments on the website from women who have had abortions?
Yes. It was almost surreal. There are so many.