Proposition K
In 2006 the Council of Europe reported worldwide sex trafficking had reached “‘epidemic proportions’ over the past decade,” according to the Associated Press.
A significant reason for the surge is the shortage of girls created by sex selection abortions, particularly in Asia, but now infiltrating the Asian cultures in the U.S. according to the Boston Globe.
It is widely acknowledged that legalized prostitution exacerbates the problem. Explains the 2005 report,”The demand for victims of sex trafficking“:
Analyzing trafficking and prostitution as parts of an interlocking system reveals how the components are linked, and studying the dynamics of supply and demand for victims reveals what keeps the system working. The trafficking process begins with the demand for women to be used in prostitution.
A major U.S. sex trafficking gateway? San Francisco. Reported the San Francisco Chronicle in 2006…
Once limited to infamous locales such as Bombay and Bangkok, sex trafficking is now an $8 billion international business, with San Francisco among its largest commercial centers.
San Francisco’s liberal attitude toward sex, the city’s history of arresting prostitutes instead of pimps, and its large immigrant population have made it one of the top American cities for international sex traffickers to do business undetected.
So it would seem a more inappropriate time than ever for San Francisco to legalize prostitution, but that’s what’s on the ballot. Reported the AP on October 21:
In this live-and-let-live town, where medical marijuana clubs do business next to grocery stores and an annual fair celebrates sadomasochism, prostitutes could soon walk the streets without fear of arrest.
San Francisco would become the first major U.S. city to decriminalize prostitution if voters next month approve Proposition K – a measure that forbids local authorities from investigating, arresting or prosecuting anyone for selling sex….
Proposition K has been endorsed by the local Democratic Party. But the mayor, district attorney, police department and much of the business community oppose the idea, contending it would increase street prostitution, allow pimps the run of neighborhoods and hamper the fight against sex trafficking, which would remain illegal because it involves forcing people into the sex trade.
The San Francisco Chronicle editorialized against the measure, saying it could make the city a magnet for prostitution.
The Family Research Council reported yesterday:
Believe it or not, one of the few groups to endorse Proposition K (apart from the Erotic Service Providers Union) is the San Francisco Democratic Party – of which Nancy Pelosi is a member…. [I]t is unclear whether she has taken an official position on Proposition K….
This is an example of the layers of exploitation of women the Democrat Party and its leaders support.
[Photo of San Francisco “massage parlor” courtesy of the San Francisco Chronicle; Prop K graphic courtesy of FRC]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
disgusting.
i know that what i am about to share is totally off subject and i apologize!
i just found this excellent pro-life movie called Come What May. it is college kids debating Roe vs. Wade and how they can overturn it. you can order it for $20.00 or watch it for free for a limited time on their website. this is a must see before the election,the website claims. i am going to try to sneak a look at it when i put the kids down for a nap this afternoon!
http://adventfilmgroup.com/FreeMovie.html
Wow. That is just so wrong.
People that support legalized prostitution often claim it is a “victimless” crime. I disagree. Any woman who finds herself in a position where she feels that selling her body is the best option for her is a victim.
Human trafficking for sex is an issue that I feel very strongly about, ever since returning from a trip to Asia and learning from a radio interview that I was just yards away from child prostitutes/prisoners who were younger than my daughter. It broke my heart, and still does.
If anyone is interested, I recently read a book, Sold by Patricia McCormick, that was very touching. It is a work of fiction, but based on many actual events the author witnessed. It is a really short, easy read on this topic that I highly recommend.
This is the first I’ve heard about this proposition. I love San Francisco. I think it’s a beautiful city with lots to do. Legalizing prostitution there would be a huge mistake and tarnish the entire Bay Area.
Hal will like this one. A former speechwriter for Obama is going to vote for John McCain:
“Since I started writing speeches more than ten years ago, I have always believed in the Democratic Party. Not anymore. Not after the election of 2008. This transformation has been swift and complete and since I’m a woman writing in the election of 2008, “very emotional.””
“I was dead wrong about the surge and thought it would be a disaster. Senator John McCain led when many of us were ready to quit. Yet we march on as if nothing has changed, wedded to an old plan, and that too is a long way from the Democratic Party.”
“The final straw came the other week when Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher (a.k.a Joe the Plumber) asked a question about higher taxes for small businesses. Instead of celebrating his aspirations, they were mocked. He wasn’t “a real plumber,” and “They’re fighting for Joe the Hedge-Fund manager,” and the patronizing, “I’ve got nothing but love for Joe the Plumber.”
Having worked in politics, I know that absolutely none of this is on the level. This back and forth is posturing, a charade, and a political game. These lines are what I refer to as “hooker lines”—a sure thing to get applause and the press to scribble as if they’re reporting meaningful news.
As the nation slouches toward disaster, the level of political discourse is unworthy of this moment in history. We have Republicans raising Ayers and Democrats fostering ageism with “erratic” and jokes about Depends. Sexism. Racism. Ageism and maybe some Socialism have all made their ugly cameos in election 2008. It’s not inspiring. Perhaps this is why I found the initial mocking of Joe so offensive and I realized an old line applied: “I didn’t leave the Democratic Party; the Democratic Party left me.”
The party I believed in wouldn’t look down on working people under any circumstance. And Joe the Plumber is right. This is the absolutely worst time to raise taxes on anyone: the rich, the middle class, the poor, small businesses and corporations.
Our economy is in the tank for many complicated reasons, especially because people don’t have enough money. So let them keep it. Let businesses keep it so they can create jobs and stay here and weather this storm. And yet, the Democratic ideology remains the same. Our approach to problems—big government solutions paid for by taxing the rich and big and smaller companies—is just as tired and out of date as trickle down economics. How about a novel approach that simply finds a sane way to stop the bleeding?
That’s not exactly the philosophy of a Democrat. Not only has this party belittled working people in this campaign from Joe the Plumber to the bitter comments, it has also been part of tearing down two female candidates. At first, certain Democrats and the press called Senator Clinton “dishonest.” They went after her cleavage. They said her experience as First Lady consisted of having tea parties. There was no outrage over “Bros before Hoes” or “Iron My Shirt.” Did Senator Clinton make mistakes? Of course. She’s human.
But here we are about a week out and it’s déjŕ vu all over again. Really, front-page news is how the Republican National Committee paid for Governor Sarah Palin’s wardrobe? Where’s the op-ed about how Obama tucks in his shirt when he plays basketball or how Senator Biden buttons the top button on his golf shirt?”
“I can no longer justify what this party has done and can’t dismiss the treatment of women and working people as just part of the new kind of politics. It’s wrong and someone has to say that. And also say that the Democratic Party’s talking points—that Senator John McCain is just four more years of the same and that he’s President Bush—are now just hooker lines that fit a very effective and perhaps wave-winning political argument…doesn’t mean they’re true. After all, he is the only one who’s worked in a bipartisan way on big challenges.”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-10-28/so-long-obama/1/
I would like to see enforcement focused more on pimps and johns, rather than the prostitutes themselves. For them, we should work on providing more support for education, drug rehab, locating good jobs- things to make it easier for them to leave this life behind. While some women may freely choose this life, I believe most don’t. I also belive that just arresting these women does little to nothing to help them.
Having a criminal record, especially for something as “undesirable” as prostitution, isn’t going to help anyone get a job. Or a loan.
I agree with Wichita Linewoman.
Yes, exactly Wichita. See, this is similar to the answer that pro-lifers give to the “how much time should she do?” question. It’s the scum bag pimps and scum bag abortionists that are the real threat, not the women.
follow the money. Obama wants to give tax refunds to the prostitutes and drug dealers that do not file tax returns. At what age is a prostitute too old to generate revenue and file for social security and never have paid in a dime.
I agree Wichita Linewoman.
If going after the ‘scum bags’ is the way to go, how does legalizing prostitution help?
Make it easier to make the decision to go into prostitution?
Love the QOTD!
This topic really contradicts the platform of feminism. Prostitution is about as severe as it get’s in exploiting women. It ranks with beatings and alcohol/drug abuse for creating a hostile environment.
Alex,
I don’t think any of us were suggesting making prostitution legal. Witchita mentioned the “enforcement” to be focused more on the pimps, as opposed to the woman. But I agree, it should be illegal, and punishments should be more about the pimps. God love you.
Look, there are good reasons behind making prostitution legal. Prostitution is going to happen, and it’s always happened. Making prostitution legal would provide legislation about legal working conditions, give them the opportunity to unionize, and have a much safer life, without such a grave threat of STIs- and without the danger of things like abusive pimps.
To Barack Obama,
The New York Times carried a story on Saturday, October 4, 2008 that proved you had a significantly closer relationship with Bill Ayers than what you previously admitted. While the issue of your relationship is of concern, the greater concern is that you lied to America about it.
The Chicago Sun reported on May 8, 2008 that FBI records showed that you had a significantly closer relationship with Tony Rezko than what you previously admitted. In the interview, you said that you only saw Mr. Rezko a couple of times a year. The FBI files showed that you saw him weekly. While the issue of your relationship is of concern, the greater concern is that you lied to America about it.
Your speech in Philadelphia on March 18, 2008 about ‘race’ contradicted your statement to Anderson Cooper on March 14 when you said that you never heard Reverend Wright make his negative statements about white America . While your attendance at Trinity Church for 20 years is of concern, the greater concern is that you lied to America on March 14.
In your 1st debate with John McCain, you said that you never said that you would meet with the leaders of Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, and North Korea without ‘preparations’ at lower levels … Joe Biden repeated your words in his debate with Sarah Palin … while the video tape from your debate last February clearly shows that you answered ‘I would’ to the question of meeting with those leaders within 12 months without ‘any’ preconditions. While your judgement about meeting with enemies of the USA without pre-conditions is of concern, the greater concern is that you lied to America in the debate with McCain.
On July 14, 2008, you said that you always knew that the surge would work while the video tapes of you from more than a year ago show that you stated that the surge would not work. While your judgement about military strategy as a potential commander in chief is of concern, the greater concern is that you lied to America on July 14.
You now claim that your reason for voting against funding for the troops was because the bill did not include a time line for withdrawal while the video tapes of you from more than a year ago show that you voted against additional funding because you wanted our troops to be removed immediately … not in 16 months after the 2008 election as you now claim. While your judgement about removing our troops unilaterally in 2007 is of concern, the greater concern is that you lied to America about your previous position.
You claim to have a record of working with Republicans while the record shows that the only bill that you sponsored with a Republican was with Chuck Lugar … and it failed. The record shows that you vote 97% in concert with the Democrat party and that you have the most liberal voting record in the Senate. You joined Republicans only 13% of the time in your votes and those 13% were only after agreement from the Democrat party. While it is of concern that you fail to include conservatives in your actions and that you are such a liberal, the greater concern is that you distorted the truth.
In the primary debates of last February, 2008, you claimed to have talked with a ‘Captain’ of a platoon in Afghanistan ‘the other day’ when in fact you had a discussion in 2003 with a Lieutenant who had just been deployed to Afghanistan . You lied in that debate.
In your debates last spring, you claimed to have been a ‘Professor of Constitutional law’ when in fact you have never been a Professor of Constitutional law. In this last debate, you were careful to say that you ‘taught a law class’ and never mentioned being a ‘Professor of Constitutional law.’ You lied last spring.
You and Joe Biden both claimed that John McCain voted against additional funding for our troops when the actual records show the opposite. You distorted the truth.
You and Joe Biden claim that John McCain voted against funding for alternate energy sources 20 times when the record shows that John McCain specifically voted against funding for bio fuels, especially corn … and he was right …. corn is too expensive at producing ethanol, and using corn to make ethanol increased the price of corn from $2 a bushel to $6 a bushel for food. You distorted the truth.
You and Joe Biden claim that John McCain voted like both of you for a tax increase on those making as little as $42,000 per year while the voting record clearly shows that John McCain did not vote as you and Joe Biden. You lied to America ..
You and Joe Biden claim that John McCain voted with George W. Bush 90% of the time when you know that Democrats also vote 90% of the time with the President (including Joe Biden) because the vast majority of the votes are procedural. You are one of the few who has not voted 90% of the time with the president because you have been missing from the Senate since the day you got elected. While your absence from your job in the Senate is of concern, the greater concern is that you spin the facts.
You did not take an active roll in the rescue plan. You claimed that the Senate did not need you while the real reason that you abstained was because of your close relationships with the executives of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Countrywide, and Acorn … who all helped cause the financial problems of today … and they all made major contributions to your campaign. While your relationship with these executives and your protection of them for your brief 3 years in the Senate (along with Barney Frank, Chuch Schumer, Maxine Waters, and Chris Dodd) is of concern, the greater concern is that you are being deceitful.
You forgot to mention that you personally represented Tony Rezko and Acorn. Tony Rezko, an Arab and close friend to you, was convicted of fraud in Chicago real estate transactions that bilked millions of tax dollars from the Illinois government for renovation projects that you sponsored as a state senator … and Acorn has been convicted of voter fraud, real estate sub prime loan intimidation, and illegal campaign contributions. Tony Rezko has contributed hundreds of thousands of dollars to your political campaigns. You personally used your political positions to steer money to both Tony Rezko and Acorn and you used Acorn to register thousands of phony voters for Democrats and you. While your relationships with Rezko and Acorn are of concern, the greater concern is that you omitted important facts about your relationships with them to America .
During your campaign, you said: ‘typical white person.’ ‘they cling to their guns and religion.’ ‘they will say that I am black.’ You played the race card.. You tried to label any criticism about you as racist.. You divide America .
You claim that you will reduce taxes for 95% of America , but you forgot to tell America that those reductions are after you remove the Bush tax reductions. You have requested close to $1 Billion in earmarks and several million for Acorn. Your social programs will cost America $1 Trillion per year and you claim that a reduction in military spending ($100 billion for Iraq ) can pay for it. While your economic plan of adding 30% to the size of our federal government is of concern, the greater concern is that you are deceiving America .
The drain to America ‘s economy by foreign supplied oil is $700 Billion per year (5% of GDP) while the war in Iraq is $100 Billion (less than 1% of GDP). You voted against any increases to oil exploration for the last 3 years and any expansion of nuclear facilities. Yet today, you say that you have always been for more oil and more nuclear. You are lying to America ..
Mr. Obama, you claimed that you ‘changed’ your mind about public financing for your campaign because of the money spent by Republican PACs in 2004. The truth is that the Democrat PACs in 2004, 2006, and 2008 spent twice as much as the Republican PACs (especially George Soros and MoveOn.org). You are lying to America .
Mr. Obama, you have done nothing to stop the actions of the teachers union and college professors in the USA . They eliminated religion from our history. They teach pro gay agendas and discuss sex with students as young as first grade. They bring their personal politics into the classrooms. They disparage conservatives. They brainwash our children. They are in it for themselves….. not America . Are you reluctant to condemn their actions because teachers/professors and the NEA contribute 25% of all money donated to Democrats and none to Republicans? You are deceiving America .
Oh Mr. Obama, Teddy Roosevelt said about a hundred years ago that we Americans should first look at the character of our leaders before anything else. Your character looks horrible. While you make good speeches, motivating speeches, your character does not match your rhetoric. You talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
1. You lied to America . You lied many times. You distorted facts. You parsed your answers like a lawyer.
2. You distorted the record of John McCain in your words and in your advertisements.
3. You had associations with some very bad people for your personal political gains and then lied about those associations.
4. You divide America about race and about class.
Now let me compare your record of lies, distortions, race bating, and associations to John McCain: War hero. Annapolis graduate with ‘Country first..’ Operational leadership experience like all 43 previously elected presidents of the USA as a Navy Officer for 22 years. 26 years in the Senate. Straight talk. Maverick. 54% of the time participated on bills with Democrats. Never asked for an earmark. The only blemish on his record is his part in the Keating 5 debacle about 25 years ago.
Mr. Obama, at Harvard Law School, you learned that the end does not justify the means. You learned that perjury, false witness, dishonesty, distortion of truth is never tolerated. Yet, your dishonesty is overwhelming. Your dishonesty is tremendously greater than the dishonesty that caused the impeachment and disbarment of Bill Clinton. Your dishonesty is tremendously greater than the dishonesty of Scooter Libby. You should be ashamed.
Mr. Obama, it is time for us Americans to put aside our differences on political issues and vote against you because of your dishonest character. It is time for all of us Americans to put aside our political issues and vote for America first. It is time for America to vote for honesty.
Any people who vote for you after understanding that you are dishonest should be ashamed of themselves for making their personal political issues more important than character. Would these same people vote for the anti-Christ if the anti-Christ promised them riches? Would they make a golden calf while Moses was up the mountain? Would they hire someone for a job if that someone lied in an interview? …. of course not. So why do some of these people justify their votes for you even though they know you are dishonest? Why do they excuse your dishonesty? Because some of these people are frightened about the future, the economy, and their financial security…. and you are praying on their fears with empty promises … and because some (especially our young people) are consumed by your wonderful style and promises for ‘change’ like the Germans who voted for Adolf Hitler in 1932. The greed/envy by Germans in 1932 kept them from recognizing Hitler for who he was. They loved his style. Greed and envy are keeping many Americans from recognizing you … your style has camouflaged your dishonesty…. but many of us see you for who you really are … and we will not stop exposing who you are every day, forever if it is necessary.
Mr. Obama, you are dishonest. Anyone who votes for you is enabling dishonesty.
Mr. Obama , America cannot trust that you will put America first in your decisions about the future.
Mr. Obama, you are not the ‘change’ that America deserves. We cannot trust you.
Mr. Obama, You are not ready and not fit to be commander in chief.
Mr. Obama, John McCain does not have as much money as your campaign to refute all of your false statements.. And for whatever reasons, the mainstream media will not give adequate coverage or research about your lies, distortions, word parsing, bad associations, race bating, lack of operational leadership experience, and general dishonest character. The media is diverting our attention to your relationships and ignoring the fact that you lied about those relationships. The fact that you lied is much more important than the relationships themselves…. just like with Bill Clinton and Richard Nixon … Monica Lewinski and Watergate were not nearly as bad as the fact that those gentlemen lied about the events … false witness … perjury … your relationships and bad judgements are bad on their own …. but your lies are even worse.
Therefore, by copy of this memo, all who read this memo are asked to send it to everyone else in America before it is too late. We need to do the job that the media will not do. We need to expose your dishonesty so that every person in America understands who you really are before Election Day.
Mr. Obama, in a democracy, we get what we deserve. And God help America if we deserve you..
John, thanks for sharing that. You found a democrat wanting to vote for McCain. Congrats.
HisMan, have you ever, once, considered the possiblity that you are wrong?
I find it ironic, but troubling, that your basic argument is on the importance of honesty, yet your entire rant is so dishonest. Sadly, you probably don’t even see it.
I find Proposition K completely disturbing.
Erin,
Are you serious??
I think we’re on the same page then, Bobby. I agree that enforcement should be ‘focused’ at the higher levels, as with drugs. Prosecuting users is like using a flyswatter on a beehive. Still – the flyswatter will keep them from landing. So I think we agree that prosecution shouldn’t be taken away.
It sounds like Erin might disagree with you on whether it should be legal, though.
I agree with Erin. As usual.
Yes, you and I are definitely on the same page Alex.
HisMan, have you ever, once, considered the possiblity that you are wrong?
I find it ironic, but troubling, that your basic argument is on the importance of honesty, yet your entire rant is so dishonest. Sadly, you probably don’t even see it.
Posted by: Hal at October 29, 2008 11:51 AM
_______________________
Hal,
You mean Barack Obama didn’t lie about Ayers and Rezko? He didn’t work for ACORN?, He didn’t call babies punishments? He doesn’t associate with people like pro-Hamas, anti-Israel Khalidi? He did’t say “it was above my pay grade” when asked about when life begins, yet, claims to be a Christian and can know for certain that unborn babies can be murdered? He wasn’t mentored by a pastor who promotes anti-Amercian, “Black Liberation Theology” and joined with the likes of Louis Farrakhan? He didn’t admit that he wants to “spread the wealth around”? His campaign didn’t seek to destroy “Joe, the plumber”? His campaign didn’t use Gestapo-like tactics to shut down the Orlando news anchor by investigating her husband? You mean he doesn’t support unfettered abortion laws? And on and on and on…..
You obviously did not READ the post. And, this is not about me. It’s about Barack Obama. It’s not that I am dishonest, YOU are NOT willing to believe the TRUTH about him because YOU are so self-deceived. You do not possess the truth so you are help in bondage by a lie.
The good Lord said. “You shall knwo the truth and the truth shall set you free”. What exactly did the Lord mean by this? He meant that once we know the truth, we no longer have to be bound by the lies of evil, however they are packaged and presented.
If it walks like a duck, smells like a duck, squawks like a duck, well, I guess it’s Barack Obama.
Hal, don’t ever question my integrity again. I brought and raised up 5 children who know and fear the Lord. YOU killed two of your children and you now support the most evil presidnetial candidate every put before America. Don’t YOU ever question my morals or honesty ever again.
If Barack Obama wins it will be because this is who we deserve and the judgement of this country has begun. If he doesn’t win it means the Lord has heard the cries of His people and has decided to give us another chance.
“AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE WE WILL SERVE THE LORD” and not Barack Obama, we will die first.
His Man, promises, promises…..
Honestly I would rather work with someone who had been convicted of prostitution then theft.
Prostitution is one the human kinds oldest occupations, it was even used in some religions to gain funds. Obviously in this context prostitution isn’t the sacred duty it used to be, so why are women becoming prostitutes? I don’t think it’s always a case of dire necessity, although for some people it is, I think it’s more of a case of someone wanting easy money. In that case the women should be punished. I also feel as though our prisons don’t do enough to help offenders reform, but that’s just my opinion. I have never been in a prison so I wouldn’t know.
Hal, don’t ever question my integrity again. I brought and raised up 5 children who know and fear the Lord.”
That’s your problem. Or more precisely, their’s.
Obama is extreme capable, and realtively moderate. You’re freaking out for nothing.
Erin @ 11:04 am,
That argument sounds familiar — (abortion). It’s a fallacious argument for the legalization of prostitution as well as for the legalization of abortion. And exactly how would it make things safer in regard to STDs?
Jess,
Most girls and women are forced into it (see the info. above regarding the rise in sex trafficking).
It should be illegal and those who are responsible for forcing people into it should be prosecuted and heavily penalized.
Carla, I’m 100% serious. Look at prostitution in the Netherlands, where it’s legal. Prostitutes are healthy, paid well, and have their concerns of safety addressed. In addition, their work generates income for the state, because their services are taxed. Age violations are crimes, for both the prostitute and the solicitor. It works very well.
Oh well sorry I totally skipped the trafficking part. That’s kidnapping, and is basically illegal everywhere. People involved with that should be prosecuted within the fullest extent of the law. With that said, whose law? They’re crossing international borders. Tough problem.
BTW, so what’s everyones opinion of “Pretty Woman” and if you know the original script, do you like it better?
It should be illegal and those who are responsible for forcing people into it should be prosecuted and heavily penalized.
Posted by: Anonymous at October 29, 2008 12:50 PM.
Agree with the second part. Of course.
Hal:
It’s my kid’s problem that they are believers?
Did you actaully say that?
And your two deceased children, well, I guess they’re OK because well, they’re dead?
You mean that your kids are better off dead than my kids are because they are believers? How freaking demonic is that?
And WHO is it that you are voting for? A guy who thinks baby’s are a punishment? A guy who thinks it’s OK to kill unborn babies even though he’s not sure when they are persons?
Every time you let your guard down and reveal who you really are and what you really think I give a word of thanks to the Lord.
This is one of those times.
not only arrest the pimps but publish the pictures and first names of the creeps who “use” these girls and contribute to their degradation.
How’s the bacon Hisman?
“publish the pictures and first names of the creeps who “use” these girls and contribute to their degradation.”
What will that accomplish Patricia? And what about prostitutes who don’t use pimps?
Hal: do you HONESTLY think that women CHOOSE to be prostitutes?
This is the myth perpetrated by the pornography industry (along with the idea that women enjoy rape too) and is the opinion commonly held by men (and women) who use pornograpy.
HisMan, I can’t believe you don’t know me yet. “Fearing” the Lord is not something that sounds comforting to me. I pity your children.
So Patricia do you think some women choose to be in porn or do you think they’re all forced into it?
I dunno Jess. You tell me. Or maybe you think we should publish the pics of the prostitutes that way we women can identify them on the street and lecture them about being fallen women?
Whether they choose to be in it or not, no one should allow for the degradation of another human being Jess. Your question is not of significance in the overall debate. The fact is that porn treats the human body as an object and not a subject.
I’m sorry I have to take a kid to music. I’ll check back later.
Ok Patricia this is for when you get back, if people will just lecture former prostitutes on the streets then what do you think they’ll do to the pimps? What if the pimp reforms while in jail, and is let out only to be beaten up and verbally abused everywhere he goes? What if there is someone who looks like the pimp and he gets beaten up on the street by a vigilante? By publicly identifying criminals you are opening a door to vigilanteism. And that can go very wrong, more innocent people can be hurt.
If they choose to be degregated why should we stop them? Are you against masochists? Should we start regulating what two consenting adults do in their bedroom? How will we enforce that? Put surveillance cameras in everyone’s homes? And who decides what is pornographic and what is not? Is a woman breast feeding pornographic? Is a nude man pornographic? Is a husband and wife having sex pornographic? Is a woman with her hand on her breast pornographic?
Gosh, Erin. Now I am not sure where to take our family on vacation!! Let’s see…the Netherlands or Mt. Rushmore. Decisions, decisions, decisions. :P
Again Hal, your misunderstanding of what fearing the Lord means is an indication of your ignorance.
If you don;t teach your children waht this measn they will be like and end up like you. Gee, I wonder how many abortions they’ll have?
Hal, have you ever tried fishing? Perhaps you don’t like using real bait? I’m not sure why because the bait you use is surely just as slimy.
I want to go to Iceland. Come with me Carla.
Lol, wait until your little boys are backpacking through Europe during college. Three guesses where they’re heading first!
“don;t teach your children waht this measn”
Are you drunk?
“Three guesses where they’re heading first!”
Madrid?
Jess,
WI is cold enough for me. Thanks.
Erin,
My boyz have already promised they are never leaving. Yay me.
Jess:
Stop the insults.
Aww, Carla, that’s adorable.
It wasn’t an insult it was a question. An insult would be if I called you an insane coward pervert.
You know, I think we should make rape legal. It’s been going on forever, and will always be going on forever, so let’s make it legal.
Yeah…that argument ALWAYS sounds ridiculous.
lol oh Jess, I lurve you.
We can’t make rape legal Elizabeth. If rape was legal I would personally castrate every single man in the country. Yes. I know what I said and I stand by it.
In that case Jess, I’m against making rape legal.
But, more to the point, rape is a violent crime with an unwilling victim. It’s not the same as prostitution. You can certainly argue prositution is a “bad thing,” but in a free country not eveything bad is illegal.
We know Hal. We like to call that abortion. :)
Hal, as a resident of PA, I know MANY Democrats who support McCain. But the MSM isn’t interested in them; just in dismissing them all as racists.
And, Hal, you have some nerve asking HisMan to consider if he’s wrong, considering that HisMan always backs up everything he posts while 90% of your posts are insane lies. Even though you’ve been on here for months, hearing countless reasons why we all oppose Obama, you continue to feign surprise at our opposition to that vile cockroach of a candidate. We know you support the least qualified and most reprehensible Democrat to ever run for president, and we know that you rarely give a single damn reason why, at least, not an honest reason. I thought “humanists” such as yourself were interested in acting with honesty and integrity, but clearly, you are only interested in deceit and fraud.
First off:Hal never answered my question. And as for “willingness” I wonder how many women would be willingly selling their bodies Hal. I’m sorry, but like your view of unborn babies, your view of women is also distorted. Badly.
Secondly, Jess: This is about prostitution. And most women do not choose prostitution. They either are forced into it or the have a history of some sort of abuse and suffer from a loss of self worth. Whatever the cause, no woman or man for that matter should see prostitution as a reasonable career choice.
Good one Elizabeth! :)
One of my neighbors had an Obama sign a couple of weeks ago. It has been changed to one for McCain/Palin and Another Democrat for McCain.
“HisMan always backs up everything he posts ”
Oh please. He cites the Bible a lot, I’ll give you that.
I like the Swedish model (target the johns) and the Dutch (legalized brothels, but not streetwalking). Somewhere in there is the solution.
-ban all prostitution
and work to eliminate the sex slavery trade
as well as the sex tourist industry
-work with countries to prosecute all citizens who partake of this disgusting “pastime” – there have been a few Canadians in the spotlight in the last year – these creeps should NEVER see the light of day again IMO
I think that this proposition is a good idea. There’s absolutely no reason to ban prostitution, except for disputed notions of morality. Can anyone tell me how exactly selling one’s sexual services is different for being paid to perform manual labor, without getting into theological understandings of morality?
Not all prostitution is a result of coercion and/or sexual trafficking. Some women do choose to engage in these kinds of activities.
Sexual trafficking, of course, is a heinous crime against humanity and should continue to be treated as such. It would additionally be easier to combat the coercive aspects of the sex trade if prostitution was legalized.
Hal,
Name one thing I’ve said about Obama that is NOT true, just one.
And FYI, there is no higher truth than God’s word and it is eternal and shall never perish.
You would do well to read the Bible and let your heart be saturated with its wisdom.
I echo my hero Paul, the Jewish Pharisee and Apostle, one of the greatest men who ever lived when he said this:
Romans 1:16-17 “16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.””
I can’t wait to meet him someday in heaven.
to my mind there is little difference between sex trafficking and prostitution
This implies that women in prostitution choose to be there – however, many are trapped in this way of life and would probably leave IF there were a way. And many would never get into it if they had the help they needed earlier in life.
The fact that some women choose to have this lifestyle does not make it a valid one.
Of course, you liberals will once again cite the bodily autonomy rights position.
If this is the case, then a prostitute does so at her own risk. Choices have consequences.
IMO, both should be outlawed.
Patricia,
I think you misunderstand why I’ve asked the question.
I’m asking someone to prove me wrong.
Enigma,
Just because some women WANT to do something doesn’t mean it needs to be approved of legally. There are plenty of things people want to do but SHOULDN’T do and shouldn’t be condoned by our legal system. Plenty of people desire to commit suicide too, this doesn’t mean we condone it, patronize them, and hand them the rope to hang themselves with. Doing so is a crime as well. One’s wants and desires should have no bearing on legalities of actions.
Elizabeth (g’s mom),
“Just because some women WANT to do something doesn’t mean it needs to be approved of legally. There are plenty of things people want to do but SHOULDN’T do and shouldn’t be condoned by our legal system. Plenty of people desire to commit suicide too, this doesn’t mean we condone it, patronize them, and hand them the rope to hang themselves with. Doing so is a crime as well. One’s wants and desires should have no bearing on legalities of actions.”
That’s all well and good (and to some extent I agree with you, depending upon the issue and it rights are violated) but you didn’t answer my question.
If you can’t or don’t want to that’s fine, but you will not be able to convince me that prostitution should be illegal unless you engage on these or similar terms.
Can anyone tell me how exactly selling one’s sexual services is different for being paid to perform manual labor, without getting into theological understandings of morality?
Can anyone tell me how exactly selling one’s sexual services is different for being paid to perform manual labor, without getting into theological understandings of morality?
Posted by: Enigma at October 29, 2008 9:19 PM
Good question
Enigma:
You’re not serious are you? We have to convince you that prostitution is wrong and should remain illegal.
Are you a male? Get yourself to such an economic state where you have to go sell you body, night after night, and then tell me how you feel about yourself.
Oh, and this minor point too. Tell me just how you would put out of your mind that perhaps you may have just contracted AIDS or other STD from one of your recent clients, or, wonder if your gonna make it through the next session without being killed. Now imagine that this is your life. You want to make it legal?
And you think that making it legal is going to fix all that? That’s sick and absolutely and utterly ridiculous.
Hal, how do you think Obama would feel if one of his daughters wanted to pimp herself out? What about one of your two remaining daughters Hal?
I would kill any one who would ever seek to take advantage of my daughter. And you want to even consider or just ask the question of making prostitution legal where other father’s daughters can be taken advantage of?
Is this the same judgement applied by an indiviudal that adores and that wants to vote for one Barack Obama? Is this the same judgement applied that justified killing your first two children?
Manual labor is usually done to produce something, Enigma. There is an end result that can be seen. Also, I think manual labor tends to benefit society as a whole because people have jobs, and are making a product or whatever else that other people need to have.
Prostitution is not done to produce anything. Also, I don’t really think it benefits society as a whole in any way. While it may employ someone so they are making money, the person consuming it does not NEED to have it. Getting off isn’t a necessity in life that people can’t go without.
I hope that at least gives you a non-theological basis for discussion. :) I tried.
Hisman,
I’m not even going to address your rant.
You’ll get much further by actually answering questions as opposed to just blustering and listening to yourself type.
Try actually talking with people as opposed to talking at them.
I’d also like to note that generally getting defensive and hostile is a sign of underlying insecurity.
Elizabeth (g mom)
“Manual labor is usually done to produce something, Enigma. There is an end result that can be seen.”
Not all manual labor produces something. What about people who mow lawns for a living? What do they produce–a mowed lawn? According to the laws of economics, they have produced nothing.
End results do not necessarily denote use. And what about people whose work precludes them from achieving an end result–ie. people in the intermediate stages of a process?
“Also, I think manual labor tends to benefit society as a whole because people have jobs, and are making a product or whatever else that other people need to have.”
Again, not all manual labor benefits society (or if you argue that it does because people are making money and paying taxes, I could extend that argument to legalized prostitution), produces anything, or produces items that people actually need. Last time I checked, people didn’t need McDonald’s toys or action figures, to give two examples.
“I hope that at least gives you a non-theological basis for discussion. :) I tried.”
I do appreciate it and I know that the question is hard. I ask because engaging on a theological level will not be productive (prostitution should be illegal because my God thinks its immoral vs. I don’t think your God exists) and because it is occasionally possible to use non-theological reasoning in order to support a point that you believe primarily because of theology. And, if anyone is able to do this (has happened on this site), I am perfectly happy to accept their conclusions even though we use different means to get there.
Can anyone tell me how exactly selling one’s sexual services is different for being paid to perform manual labor, without getting into theological understandings of morality?
Posted by: Enigma at October 29, 2008 9:19 PM
you are quite right, if you have a view that there is nothing sacred about YOUR body then of course you will feel you have the right to do whatever you want with your body.
And you will also feel you can do with another’s body whatever you want as long as they consent. In fact, we see this extreme in the pedophiliac’s assumption that even very small children CAN consent to intercourse.
You will also have the view that you can do whatever you want with someone else’s body if they can’t consent because it is JUST a body. This of course leads to abortion, involuntary euthanasia etc.
However, I do not share your view of the body. The body is an expression of who a person is – it is the physical expression of that person and as such has a significant meaning. Every person has a dignity inherent to them, regardless of their position, location, stage of development etc. You do NOT accept this position.
Therefore, I’m not surprised you support both prostition and abortion.
Not all manual labor produces something. What about people who mow lawns for a living? What do they produce–a mowed lawn? According to the laws of economics, they have produced nothing.
yes, the product being sold is a mowed lawn. That is the exchange going on here.
Again, not all manual labor benefits society (or if you argue that it does because people are making money and paying taxes, I could extend that argument to legalized prostitution), produces anything, or produces items that people actually need. Last time I checked, people didn’t need McDonald’s toys or action figures, to give two examples.
Define “need”. To the child playing with the toy, this meets their “need”. This is a benefit to the child who plays with it and to the mother who has a child amused for a period of time. Therefore two needs are being met.
I do appreciate it and I know that the question is hard. I ask because engaging on a theological level will not be productive (prostitution should be illegal because my God thinks its immoral vs. I don’t think your God exists) and because it is occasionally possible to use non-theological reasoning in order to support a point that you believe primarily because of theology. And, if anyone is able to do this (has happened on this site), I am perfectly happy to accept their conclusions even though we use different means to get there.
Posted by: Enigma at October 29, 2008 11:20 PM
again this is an assinine position to have because it asks the other person to prove something from your frame of reference only and completely discounts the other’s frame of reference as worthless.
This is the height of intellectual pride. I love this ploy of liberals.
Sorry, enigma but if you expect to have any credibility with me you will have to stop doing this and try to meet people half way.
You therefore prove to me why people do NOT have a dignity inherent to each body and why we should NOT respect another person’s body when they don’t. OH and don’t use secular means to do it because I don’t accept secular, humanistic, non-theological arguments.
Patricia,
“And you will also feel you can do with another’s body whatever you want as long as they consent. In fact, we see this extreme in the pedophiliac’s assumption that even very small children CAN consent to intercourse.”
The first sentence I semi-agree with, the later I dispute. That reasoning also has nothing to do with the point that I just elucidated.
“You will also have the view that you can do whatever you want with someone else’s body if they can’t consent because it is JUST a body. This of course leads to abortion, involuntary euthanasia etc.”
This is not my position at all.
“However, I do not share your view of the body.”
I’m not asking you to accept my view.
“yes, the product being sold is a mowed lawn. That is the exchange going on here.”
Technically, economic relationships, though based upon exchange, do not need to have items as the basis of that exchange.
The mower can’t sell a mowed lawn, because the person he/she would be trying to sell it to already owns it. Mowed lawns are also not products.
“Define “need”. To the child playing with the toy, this meets their “need”. This is a benefit to the child who plays with it and to the mother who has a child amused for a period of time. Therefore two needs are being met.”
So now we’re defining “need” on the basis of what people want? In that case, once can indeed that argue that a man has sexual “needs” that are being serviced by the prostituted. Two needs are also being met here.
“again this is an assinine position to have because it asks the other person to prove something from your frame of reference only and completely discounts the other’s frame of reference as worthless.”
I’ve explained my reasoning. I’m not trying to convert hearts and minds. Generally, I’ve found that the people on this blog are. And now you’re walking away because I’ve asked you to do it on my terms because I won’t accept religious reasoning?
“This is the height of intellectual pride.I love this ploy of liberals.
Sorry, enigma but if you expect to have any credibility with me you will have to stop doing this and try to meet people half way.”
And how do you suggest we meet halfway.
You: Prostitution is wrong because of the inherent dignity endowed in each human being by a benevolent creator.
Me: I don’t believe in your Creator or in this “inherent dignity.”
Where the heck do you go from there?
“You therefore prove to me why people do NOT have a dignity inherent to each body and why we should NOT respect another person’s body when they don’t. OH and don’t use secular means to do it because I don’t accept secular, humanistic, non-theological arguments.”
Why do I need to prove anything? I’m not asking you to accept my point of view, I’m attempting to bring the argument back to a point that we can both argue from. If you want to argue in religious terms, we need to start by arguing the existence of God.
And how do you suggest we meet halfway.
You NEED to start accepting other points of view. After all that IS what you are asking us to do.
and the end of the argument is “inherent dignity”
BTW: I NEVER mentioned a Creator. Interestingly, you did!
The opponents of this proposition K are telling lies, and scare tactics to get people to vote against it. By lying and saying that all prostitutes are forced to do it against their will. Yet they can never find anyone who was a victim of this. Where are all these victims? Why aren’t they coming out and talking and showing themselves? It’s just a made up lie. It is very difficult to force anyone to do something against their will. They would need 24 hour guards, and be watched over like being in prison, with no chance to escape. Try getting someone to do something they don’t want to do and see how successful you are – you won’t be. Since this is a victimless crime, the opponents and racial feminists need to invent a victim in order to get support. They could have chosen the johns, the hookers or the city itself. They chose the hookers to be the victims even though it’s the hookers who want to decriminalize because they realize it’s the police, justice system and the government that hurts them, not the johns. Why is it that the ONLY people who are working for this to pass are the prostitutes themselves? Why would the victims themselves want this to pass? Maybe it is because they are victims of the police and justice system who abuse them and their customers. By the way, there is a federal law the says any foreigner who was a victim of prostitution in the USA if they go to the justice department and complain and help prosecute their pimp, then they can stay in the USA, get a green card and become a US citizen. So that means these women will then be encouraged to lie about it, in order to become citizens. So if you are a woman, just lie, pick a random guy to be your pimp and you can become a US citizen, and get money from the government. Easy – isn’t it?
On Tuesday, November 11th at 10 p ET Melissa Francis examines the world of high-end prostitution in the CNBC Original “Dirty Money: The Business of High-End Prostitution”. In every city in America sex is for sale and much of it operates in plain view. But, there’s one corner of the trade protected like none other… the business of high-end prostitution where clients can spend hundred of thousands of dollars each year. It’s a secret world with rules and practices that will change everything you think you know about the buying and selling of sex. Join Melissa as she ventures into this secret world.
For web extras visit http://dirtymoney.cnbc.com.
Tonight at 10 p ET Melissa Francis examines the world of high-end prostitution in the CNBC Original “Dirty Money: The Business of High-End Prostitution”. In every city in America sex is for sale and much of it operates in plain view. But, there’s one corner of the trade protected like none other… the business of high-end prostitution where clients can spend hundred of thousands of dollars each year. It’s a secret world with rules and practices that will change everything you think you know about the buying and selling of sex. Join Melissa as she ventures into this secret world.
For web extras visit http://dirtymoney.cnbc.com.