Yaz jazz
The New York Times on February 10 reported the FDA has undertaken “an unusual crackdown” against Bayer, manufacturer of the birth control pill Yaz, forcing it to issue corrective ads for “overstat[ing] the drug’s ability to improve women’s moods and clear up acne, while playing down its potential health risks” in previous ads.
Here’s 1 of the 2 ads that got Bayer in trouble. Note the balloons indicating “headaches,” “acne,” and “feeling anxious” will float away if women use Yaz:
I sure wish I could find the other ad, which sounds funny on so many levels, but it has vanished off the Internet. According to YourLawyer.com, it
“featur[ed] women singing ‘We’re not gonna take it’ and kicking, punching, and pushing balloons imprinted with words such as ‘irritability,’ ‘moodiness,’ and ‘bloating’.” That song, incidentally, was by Twisted Sister, seen here giving a shout out to Yaz at a concert. As I said, so many levels of unintended parody….
According to NYT, this is the 2nd time a drug company has been slapped by the FDA in recent years for the same reason. In 2003 Berlex Laboratories, makers of Yasmin, was issued a warning letter for exaggerating the drugs benefits and downplaying its risks.
Where are the feminists?
Found these, too. First a Yaz ad apparently trying to take the FDA’s warnings a little more seriously…
And then a parody, the makers of which obviously invested quite a bit to produce (warning, PG-13 at end)…
Pretty funny.
Incidentally, Yaz still misleads on the biggest concern: it can abort. On its colorful and easy to read webpage Yaz states:
But in its hard to find physicians’ fine print Yaz states:
And even that is unclear. Implantation of what?
Nevertheless, why isn’t the FDA concerning about this obviously misleading information?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
The last commercial appears very strongly insulting and degrading to women.
Do women really want to be treated as no more than sex objects?
I noticed in the first commercial I saw advertising Yaz that they had the women make obvious gestures in which one could see that they were not married. It seemed odd to me to make a point of premarital sex, but I guess they were trying to reach their target audience.
xppc: that’s what Birth control HAS done to women. Its turned them into mere objects for men to use to satisfy their “uncontrollable” urges. And the pill “helps” them escape the inevitable: possible fatherhood.
Ummmm… xppc and Liz, you do realize it’s a parody?????
Asitis, blasphemy! It’s not okay to enjoy sex. It’s only for reproduction! How dare you say anything different!
OMG, you’re right Josephine! I’m such a slut. I better go confess to my husband that I am unworthy of him. Heeheeehee
Once again, asitis and Josephine are having their “little fun” at the expense of the truth, seeking to denigrate and make fun of those they disagree with, rather than having a serious conversation on the merits of the subject.
While there are certainly those who have elevated prudery to an artform, anyone who actually reads the Bible will find that human sexuality is a precious gift that is meant for full enjoyment of both partners… Song of Solomon is graphic in its descriptions of this and there are many other references, most notably the one that the marriage bed is undefiled (meaning, go ahead and have all the fun you want, there is nothing immoral about thoroughly enjoying your spouse)…
However, I expect that both asitis and Josephine will blow off this post, as usual, and merely twitter away that obviously I missed the point of their little joke, blah blah blah blah, yada yada yada… after all this is a blog, they can say whatever they want… even if it is pointless and inane.
I will say, I thought the last one was hilarious for the point that it was making regarding women putting themselves out there as nothing more than sexual objects…
Elisabeth, Asitis is married. What, exactly, is this “expense of the truth” talk??
I’m sorry– but it’s very hard to have a real conversation with my because there are just too many people on here who don’t realize their beliefs are relgious, so not everyone has them. Too many people think they’re talking about “human truth” when they’re talking about “religious belief.”
As for you liking the last one, did you read the post? “And then a parody, the makers of which obviously invested quite a bit to produce (warning, PG-13 at end)…” That was posted right before it.
elisabeth, c’mon….. Don’t you get the same impression from Liz’s comment?
As for the serious conversation related to this post: I think it was right of the FDA to act as they did if Bayer was overstating side benefits for their product. Very likely they had taken market shares from their competition based on these claims which they were not entitled to make.
I am NOT prudish. Sex was never meant to become a recreational sport, which it seems to be promoted as. It is meant to be a beautiful act of Unconditional LOVE between a HUSBAND and a WIFE.
Old fashioned? Well, maybe I actually value my SOUL and my purity.
1) Yes, I realized it was a parody… and I thought it was hilarious. I said the last one, as in the last video. I am quite capable of reading. Maybe you should try it…
2) What does the fact that asitis is married have to do with the fact that rather than discuss her differing opinions with Liz, she chooses instead, as you do, to belittle her opinions? There can be no cogent discussion with people whose entire strategy appears to be to demean and ridicule those they disagree with.
No, I did NOT feel that Liz was saying that sex was for reproduction only and that no one could enjoy it. I got the, I feel correct, impression that Liz was saying that far from “freeing” women to enjoy sex, the true “beneficiaries” of the contraception/abortion push have been immature males unwilling to take responsibility for their actions… there are actually arguments out there to claim that men should not have to pay child support for children that they were willing to pay for an abortion for…
V and Josephine,
Discuss like adults please.
“It is meant to be a beautiful act of Unconditional LOVE between a HUSBAND and a WIFE. ”
If you’re a Christian.
Lots of people that see these ads aren’t. :)
I am NOT prudish. Sex was never meant to become a recreational sport, which it seems to be promoted as. It is meant to be a beautiful act of Unconditional LOVE between a HUSBAND and a WIFE.
Posted by: LizFromNebraska at February 12, 2009 10:32 AM
Not prudish? But you think birth control has done nothing but turn women into objects for men to use sexually at their own will. This suggests to me that you don’t recognize that women might enjoy sex as well. Being on the pill does not mean that a women has no control over when she has sex (It is still her body). Quite the contrary, it gives her more control.
As for what sex was “meant for” and who it was meant to be between…. well those are personal beliefs.
V and Josephine,
Discuss like adults please.
Posted by: Carla at February 12, 2009 10:40 AM
Hey Josephine, ask Carla what she means by that.
V,
Ask me yourself. Although you know EXACTLY what I am talking about. Discuss without put downs.
Josephine,
what did you mean by “if you’re a christian”?
Oh, I get it…….
But if I make a comment about what you’re implying, you might call me an OLD PRUDE again.
I never called you an old prude, Liz. However, you operate by Christian rules. Not everyone does. Lots of women (even married women) want to have sex to “show their love” but that doesn’t mean they want kids.
Carla, I was offended and put down before either of us said anything to Liz.
” Its turned them into mere objects for men to use to satisfy their “uncontrollable” urges. And the pill “helps” them escape the inevitable: possible fatherhood. ”
In fact, that’s not only insulting to one person, but everyone on birth control.
I don’t know that it has done nothing more than that, there are certainly those women for whom birth control has been a good thing…
But I think we are foolish to dismiss the idea that in some case, probably more than we care to realize, birth control certainly has had that effect… with immature men thinking “Well, she should have been on the pill and if not, well, abortion is legal, so I refuse to pay child support for a child that didn’t have to be born.”
Religious arguments aside, can we not agree that among the positive effects there are also negative effects? Unintended consequences? And that the portrayals listed by those ads certainly inspired more than just Liz and me to think about that, considering the contents of the parody.
V,
Ask me yourself. Although you know EXACTLY what I am talking about. Discuss without put downs.
Posted by: Carla at February 12, 2009 10:53 AM
Oh, sorry Carla. I thought it was okay to talk to people through others. OH….is that childish? c);)
Seriously though. I never said Li was a prude. I said (as I recall, because it’s no longer there) that what she wrote sounded old-fashioned, perhaps prudish.
Religious arguments aside, can we not agree that among the positive effects there are also negative effects? Unintended consequences? And that the portrayals listed by those ads certainly inspired more than just Liz and me to think about that, considering the contents of the parody.
Posted by: Elisabeth at February 12, 2009 10:58 AM
All I agree to is that there are some negative side effects and contraindications to birth control. There are certain people who should choose another form of birth control… the pill is not right for everyone. But for those it is right for, it always a women to be MORE in control of her sex life and reproductivity.
Elisabeth, I would never have an abortion. I already know this, my bf already knows this. Now, that being said: I can’t stand kids. I really don’t like them, I’m really determined and selfish so I’d be a terrible mother. Yes, if I get pregnant in a couple years, I wouldn’t abort it: My mom already told me she’d raise it. Now, that being said: shouldn’t someone in my situation, who just refuses to be a mom, do everything in their power to not get pregnant? Am I less “deserving” to have a ” beautiful act of Unconditional LOVE between a HUSBAND and a WIFE. ” because I don’t like kids? Me not having kids is in everyone’s best interest.
I guess having VALUES and MORALS is prudish now, especially if the morals involve respecting yourself.
I guess having VALUES and MORALS is prudish now, especially if the morals involve respecting yourself.
Posted by: LizFromNebraska at February 12, 2009 11:06 AM
Oh no Liz. We all have morals.And is quite possible to respect yourself and still enjoy sex.
I’m on Yaz. I LOVE IT. For me, most of those claims are true…especially about the acne. I used to have a very poor complexion, but ever since I started taking it, I only get a pimple every once in a while. I love it how birth control is always demonized here, even though ALL medications have their risks. I’m willing to take my risks, if you aren’t, then I’m not going to judge your actions for it. I don’t deserve to be judged for mine regarding Yaz. I AM, however, willing to agree with you that Bayer shouldn’t be pushing those aspects of Yaz as much, because it really does have a primary purpose outside of those added benefits.
I’m not discussing the medical side effects. That is another whole topic. I’m discussing the societal side effects that easy access to contraceptives and abortion promotes. While there are positives (and I have already acknowledged that fact) why is there such reluctance to admit that there are also negatives, societally speaking?
I guess having VALUES and MORALS is prudish now, especially if the morals involve respecting yourself.
Posted by: LizFromNebraska at February 12, 2009 11:06 AM
Married people like having sex, and don’t want to have kids. Happens all the time. In fact, after forty your risk of having a challenged baby rises greatly. I think it’s selfish to risk having a baby when you get past, say, 40.
I’m not discussing the medical side effects. That is another whole topic. I’m discussing the societal side effects that easy access to contraceptives and abortion promotes. While there are positives (and I have already acknowledged that fact) why is there such reluctance to admit that there are also negatives, societally speaking?
Posted by: Elisabeth at February 12, 2009 11:11 AM
Because we don’t all agree there are negatives Elisabeth. I’d say in general, people who are accepting of sex without marrriage or at least recognize that its occurrence is widespread, see accessible and affordable birth control as a good thing.
And Josephine, as a medical professional, although I happen to have seen many “selfish, determined” women fall head over heels in love with their children once they actually experience motherhood, if you are that dead set against being a mother, I recommend something more permanent, such as a tubal ligation, which will prevent your mother from having to raise a child conceived despite your refusal to raise it. (Although I certainly applaud your foresight in this issue.)
There is no form of birth control that is 100% and there are medical side effects from long term use of contraceptives… if that is your viewpoint, again, you should be having a far more serious conversation with your doctor.
For some people there are social negatives of contraceptive use. However, I noticed that it’s ONLY birth control given this bad rap- plenty of other drugs can be used in an unsavory manner against persons- antidepressants, etc, that control the behavior of people. This is exploitative behavior, too.
And I’ve heard enough stories about how women would take birth control in secret because their husbands wanted the opposite control of them- they weren’t allowed to prevent pregnancy. The pill definitely helped these women in the opposite way.
The problem is the attitude, not the pill. If men have an irresponsible nature, you demonize that nature- not the pill that has the utmost goal of giving women freedom. Even the tool with the best of intentions, if put into the wrong hands, can be dangerous. You fight the wrong hands, not the tool.
Asitis, you are apparently incapable of seeing that this is a complex issue. While the benefits may, in some minds outweigh the negatives, while others disagree and feel the negatives outweigh the positives, it is extremely close-minded to be unable to see that both exist.
Are you going to tell me that there is no negative inherent for a woman who is, say, “responsible” (according to the world’s definition) and who falls into the small percentage failure rate… she does not believe in abortion for herself and tells the father that she intends to raise the child… the father informs her that he will not step up to the plate financially because it is “not his fault” that she refused an abortion…
There is no negative here? Or are you so naive as to believe this does not happen?
Elisabeth, don’t blame the pill for that.
You should read Lyssie’s post above. She addresses this well.
Elisabeth, I would love, LOVE to get my “tubes tied”. Unfortunately, less and less doctors are willing. I know my dad won’t recommend it for people unless they’re over forty or have had five or more children already. Other than that, he’ll always counsel against it.
I’m not saying I wouldn’t have a baby and think for a minute I want to keep it. I just happen to be incredibly selfish, and so is my bf. We’d be terrible, TERRIBLE parents.. even if we were okay for the first couple weeks. :)
My birthcontrol is perfect for me. It’s very effective, I have NO side effects thus far(I can get bone density scans for free!) and that’s pretty much the only complaint from researchers of depo provera.
Elisabeth, your example makes women look the victim. She is the one that has to carry a baby. If he wants to give it up for adoption, and she doesn’t, why in the world is he not allowed to be part of the decision but he sure as heck is supposed to pay to raise the kids?
“Elisabeth, I would never have an abortion.”
why not Josephine?
Because I don’t believe in abortions, as I’ve said fifteen thousand times already. I think it’s wrong.
“The problem is the attitude, not the pill. If men have an irresponsible nature, you demonize that nature- not the pill that has the utmost goal of giving women freedom.”
Thats not freedom, that is licence.
“I think it’s wrong.”
why do you think abortion is wrong Josephine?
I don’t understand why some can’t just take a Midol or Aleve.
I’m surprised they didn’t claim that Yaz also helps you lose excess water weight, too
I didn’t watch the parody video
Jasper, instead of proffering what only you consider to be “insightful and witty” one-liners, at least explain what you mean by license versus freedom. Last time I looked, licenses confer certain freedoms to those who bear them. So either way, directly or indirectly, you’re saying that the pill/tool in question offers freedom to the user.
Lyssie,
Freedom and fear are at war. Freedom is not, “being able to do whatever you want to do.” That is license. If you have license, rather than authentic freedom, your house is built on sand and will collapse. Authentic freedom is the power to do what we ought to do; the power to choose the good, the true, and the beautiful. That will vanquish fear every time. If your concept of freedom is really license, fear will come out on top every time. Freedom has to be united with truth. There is no fredom outside of the truth: No authentic human freedom outside of the truth. “If you are truely my diciples, you will abide in my word. You will know the truth, and the truth till make you free.” True freedom is rooted in God.
Hooooooookay…that still didn’t adequately address my request for an explanation, and fear has nothing to do with it. But whatever, it’s really not that important.
Jasper,
That was awesome. Thank you!
“why do you think abortion is wrong Josephine?”
Jasper, we’ve had this exact conversation before. I’m not going to do it again. I’ve answered all of these questions for you already.
Josephine, Depo Provera can act as an abortificient drug by blocking implantation.
Lauren, we’ve already talked about that forever on a different thread. I don’t believe just a fertilized egg makes a baby. I’m not going to have the exact same argument again.
Jasper, you made it pretty clear that what you mean by freedom is different from what Lyssie (and others) mean by freedom.
Good to know. Thanks.
Josephine, I obviously didn’t have the conversation with you.
I really don’t get people like you. You’re against abortion, presumeably because you understand that a human life is killed by abortion, yet you don’t consider that same human life to have value from its inception.
You’re “personhood fairy” comes at implantion. How is that any diferent than saying that a person isn’t a person until after the first trimester or any other artificial line drawn in the sand by the pro-choice crowd.
You’re should be your…ugh
“Jasper,
That was awesome. Thank you!
”
No problem Carla. I stole it from Father John Corapi, one of my heros…:)
“…there is nothing immoral about thoroughly enjoying your spouse”
There is nothing immoral about thoroughly enjoying your non-spouse either.
Look at an egg that has been fertilized in a dish. If you tell me that’s more of a “human life” than a plant, I would think you’re stupid. Simple as that. I have SEEN eggs fertilized in dishes. They don’t divide. They don’t grow. In now way are they a life.
Like I said, you can find that discussion on another thread. Can’t remember which, but it’s there. I’m not having the same conversation again though. I don’t mean it to be rude, but it’s just to redundant to me.
Apparently since your “personhood fairy” comes when a sperm meets an egg. Why isn’t masturbation murder, then? What changes? Nothing. They meet. Changes occur during egg activation when the fertilized egg is getting ready to implant. If you’re on birth control, NO egg activation will take place. The cell won’t grow, won’t divide. No harm, no foul. It’s science.
“Jasper, we’ve had this exact conversation before. I’m not going to do it again. I’ve answered all of these questions for you already.”
yes, but we never got to the bottom of why you think abortion is wrong.
For instance, is it the head being crushed you don’t like? The brains being sucked oout? The limbs being ripped off? or maybe it’s the thought of a little human being sucked up a vacuum tube to it’s death? what exactly makes abortion wrong in your mind? because for some reason, it’s OK to be legal according to you.
Jasper, I’ve answered all of those. And antagonizing me isn’t going to make me do it again.
Josephine, you have a very poor understanding of human reproduction.
I consider a unique human being to exist at amphimixis, or when the male and female pro-nuclei allign and division begins. Division will continue unless it is forceably stopped by either direct interference(as is the case in in-vitro) or because it can not continue to grow because of lack of environment or some mutation incompatible with life.
If birth control fails to prevent both ovulation and sperm movement, the egg will be fertilized and amphimixis will occur. If this happens, a new human life has been created and allowing it do die by purposefully changing your uterine environment is no different than taking the abortion drug.
There is indeed harm and foul done to the child who is killed because it was deprived continued development.
Oh, and Josephine, this should go without saying but there is a vast difference between a sperm cell and an egg cell individually and a zygote.
maybe Josephine was referring to a fertilized chicken egg and not a fertilized human egg…..cause that’s not a baby human, that’s a baby chick in the chicken egg.
Lauren,
I do seem to recall a thread in which Catholics claimed that their opposition had nothing to do with it maybe being an “abortion pill.” Anyone remember that one?? Or am I crazy. Just curious on you all’s response.
Jill,
“Implantation of what?”
I think it’s pretty clear.
Furthermore, it is hard to tell how regularly “preventing implantation” actually occurs. It doesn’t seem to be the main intention of the pill, which is to stop ovulation. Thickened mucous (or in the case of depo, thinned mucous/lining) seems like a double-effect thing, in which both prevent pregnancy.
The birth control pill is not responsible for all the social ills we are seeing. If you want to make them illegal, then you’ll probably have to deal with more than you think. America might become more of a “welfare state” than you’d like. Plus, you would have to pry the pills out of these women’s hands. Most women are happy using the pill. Even if you think that sex should be a religious act (man, I read a vatican document, they are REALLY hung up on sex- it always has to be “open to life” and at the same time there is no legitimate way of conceiving without having sex), it is not your job to be the morality police- perhaps its time to mind your own business.
If birth control fails to prevent both ovulation and sperm movement, the egg will be fertilized and amphimixis will occur. If this happens, a new human life has been created and allowing it do die by purposefully changing your uterine environment is no different than taking the abortion drug.
There is indeed harm and foul done to the child who is killed because it was deprived continued development.
Posted by: lauren at February 12, 2009 12:56 PM
IF breakthough ovulation occurs and IF the sperm makes it to the egg and IF it makes it to the wall then it will find an inhospitable environment thanks to the Pill. No one knows what the occurrence of this is. And I’ll throw it out there that it’s not a real issue to users of the Pill. But that’s just my guess.
I do seem to recall a thread in which Catholics claimed that their opposition had nothing to do with it maybe being an “abortion pill.” Anyone remember that one?? Or am I crazy. Just curious on you all’s response.
Posted by: prettyinpink at February 12, 2009 1:05 PM
PIP, most sexually active Catholics do use birth control, and that includes the Pill. But according to what some have written here, Catholic Church teachings dictate that all birth control, even NFP (when used as contraception), is wrong because you are not being “open to the idea of children”. Something like that. So they are against the Pill for whatever its mechanism for preventing a pregnancy. Maybe toostunned is here and she can elaborate.
So while they
“Josephine, you have a very poor understanding of human reproduction.”
Your right, as a pre-med student, a medic, and from a family of doctors, I don’t understand the human body. *EYE ROLL*. A fertilized egg doesn’t mean any of the qualities of life until after activation. That is a fact.
Carla, aren’t you the police on here telling Asitis and I to stop making jokes and rude comments? I’d appreciate something being said about Liz’s comment. Again, that’s an attack without being provoked. :)
Plus, you would have to pry the pills out of these women’s hands.
Posted by: prettyinpink at February 12, 2009 1:05 PM
Yeh, just try it! I have to warn you guys, I’m strong. Plus I can ran pretty fast and very far!
I am opposed to hormonal contraceptions because of their abortificient natures.
I am personally opposed to other forms of birth control because I think they assert our will above God’s but I’m not out crusading against condoms because I realize that there are people who do not believe in God at all and subverting His will means nothing to them.
I think non-hormonal contraception is a problem, but not a mortal problem and while I don’t generally encourage it, I’m not out crusading to make it illegal either.
I’m going to agree with PIP. I think I’d just steal a bunch of shots and store them in my freezer. I refuse to get my period back!
what do you mean by “After activation”? That’s a new term that I’ve never heard…..
Liz, I have class. I really want to explain to you what I mean- my class is only forty minutes. I promise to give you a good description afterwards. Promise.
Josephine, you don’t.
You seem to have the mistaken belief that activation occurs sometime other than prior to implantation. This is not the case. Activation occurs within the fallopian tubes, and at amphimixis or the fusion of the male and female pronuclei, a new complete human life has been formed and activation is complete.
Let’s look at the time frame and location of all of this:
Day 0- fertilization (activation and amphimixis)
– First Cleavage division
– W/in fallopian tubes
Day 1- 2 cell stage, blastomere
– w/in fallopian tubes
Day 2- 4 cell stage, blastomere,
– w/infollopian tubes
Day 3- Early morula
– w/in follopian tube
Day 4-5advanced morula leading to hatching
-moving to uterus
Day 6 blastocyst forms w/in uterus
Day 7-10 Implantation.
So, if hormonal birth control allows for fertilization, we have 6 days of development occuring before the fully formed blastocyst attempts to implant but is unable to do so.
lauren at February 12, 2009 1:38 PM: too add to what you said: which then, if fertilization HAS occurred, can cause an early CHEMICAL abortion, which many women may not realize had happened.
==========Your right, as a pre-med student, a medic, and from a family of doctors, I don’t understand the human body. *EYE ROLL*. A fertilized egg doesn’t mean any of the qualities of life until after activation. That is a fact.
Posted by: Josephine at February 12, 2009 1:18 PM================
Josephine, Frankly, that doesn’t mean you know about reproduction. A friend of mine who recently received her MD and is an OB/GYN had been taught that NFP was simply the rhythm method. She did not know about all of the various markers and changes in a woman’s body in the course of a cycle. So, no, I don’t consider you infallible on reproduction.
===========man, I read a vatican document, they are REALLY hung up on sex- it always has to be “open to life” and at the same time there is no legitimate way of conceiving without having sex
Posted by: prettyinpink at February 12, 2009 1:05 PM============
PIP, which one did you read? If it was humanae vitae, of course sex is going to be a primary focus, because human life can only result if there is sexual activity! I love people who act as if the Vatican is full of dirty old men who know nothing about sex and love but yet who are obsessed about it. The Catholic Church has some of the most beautiful praises for love-making, but realize that it can be distorted when it occurs outside of the rightly ordered time and place.
NFP is amazing: using natural bodily cycles to know when you can conceive a child. I know of a few of the methods, but not a whole lot of the details.
PiP,
“I do seem to recall a thread in which Catholics claimed that their opposition had nothing to do with it maybe being an “abortion pill.” Anyone remember that one?? Or am I crazy. Just curious on you all’s response.”
You are crazy, yes :) But nontheless, that may have been something I said to which you are referring. Yes, the way I argue (some others may not argue this way) you could say that my opposition to birth control and hormonal contraception in particular “had nothing to do with it maybe being an “abortion pill””. I would be happy to explain my position if you or anyone else wishes, but to make a long story short, I do believe arguing that it is wrong because it is an abortion pill is question begging. My fellow pro-lifers may disagree with me, and that is perfectly alright.
Oh and Pip,
“I read a vatican document, they are REALLY hung up on sex”
That is because the whole world is, and because there is just SO much confusion about it. If say, lynching blacks was the big thing all over the world and it was socially acceptable and extremely popular, portrayed on TV all the time as something good, etc, then the Church would constantly be talking about lynchings in all of their documents. The Church is a living organism specifically for the purpose of being able to guide the world in their current problems and such.
I never called you an old prude, Liz. However, you operate by Christian rules. Not everyone does. Lots of women (even married women) want to have sex to “show their love” but that doesn’t mean they want kids.
Posted by: Josephine at February 12, 2009 10:55 AM
and what rules do YOU operate by Josephine? Not Catholic ones as you claim because Catholic women want children and they want marriage with children.
*********************************************
The Catholic Church has some of the most beautiful praises for love-making, but realize that it can be distorted when it occurs outside of the rightly ordered time and place.
Posted by: Michael at February 12, 2009 2:05 PM
AWESOME Theology of the Body is one such document!
Josephine: “Your right, as a pre-med student, a medic, and from a family of doctors, I don’t understand the human body. *EYE ROLL*. A fertilized egg doesn’t mean any of the qualities of life until after activation. That is a fact.”
May God have mercy on the souls you work on. God knows there are enough incompetent and ignorant doctors out there in the world.
Im curious, what did you score on your MCAT?
Im also curious, are you a pre-Med at an out of US school or at a particular school in New Jersey? Whatever they sell you, good luck trying to land residency if so.
I’d love to hear your explanation about your opposition to hormonal birth control, Bobby. :)
Bobby I think you and I agree on the BC pill aspect. The fact that it may cause abortion is not the sole not principal reason I am against it.
A fertilized egg doesn’t mean any of the qualities of life until after activation. That is a fact.
Ok Josephine I’m gonna take you to task for this one. This statement is completely and utterly fallacious.
First of all there is no such thing as a “fertilized egg”. At the moment of fusion between a sperm and an egg a zygote exists NOT a fertilized egg.
Secondly, embryologists KNOW that the zygote is a new self-directing life. How do they know?
They look at two criteria – does the zygote’s material composition differ from the gamete cells? and does it exhibit a distinct developmental pathway, different from the previous gametes that fused to form it?
The answer is YES! to both questions.
Cell fusion takes place in less than a second becoming a zygote. At the moment of fusion the sperm and egg cease to exist (thus fertilized egg is a misnomer).
They form a new cell that is quite different from the sperm and egg. It’s behavior differs radically from the behavior of the gametes.
The purpose of the gametes is to unite with the opposite gamete. The purpose of the newly formed zygote is to prevent this unification! Therefore, the zygote immediately takes action to prevent other sperm from binding to it. It does this by changing it’s ionic composition that results in changes to the zona pellucida which is the acellular structure that surrounds the zygote.
The zygote’s developmental pathway is distinct from them as well. It undergoes DNA replication.
Therefore, we can say that sperm-egg fusion is a well defined instant which gives forth a zygote having unique cell composition, molecular composition and self-directing behavior.
so it is life Josephine!
Secondly is this life just new cell life or a living human being.
Organisms may be defined as
1. an organized body consisting of mutually dependent parts fulfilling functions necessary to the life of the whole.
Scientists use the same criteria as above. In short, a human zygote is a human being because it follows a human pattern of developmental behavior.
Liz,
I don’t actually distinguish between an opposition to hormonal vs. non-hormonal artificial forms of birth control. So I oppose condoms, the pill, the patch, diaphragms, etc. all for the same reason. And I think they would be for the same reasons you give. They separate the unitive and the procreative aspect of the marital act. In fact, contraception acts against the purpose (uh oh, there’s that word!) of sex. Now the purpose of medicine is to heal something that is wrong or broken; to aid the body in it’s proper (again, proper?!) function. However, with contraception, you are taking something that is working PERFECTLY and suppressing it. Fertility is the natural way for the reproductive system to work. Contraception then is a way to render that natural way infertile. That’s a brief thumbnail sketch.
However, in point to PiP’s comment, I do want to say that I always try and stay on a purely philosophical level because it is not based on evidence or the latest technology. I see arguing against the pill based on it’s abortifacient nature a problem for two reasons; one is that it is question begging. The other is that perhaps in several years there will be a new pill, a SUPER pill which can CLEARLY be shown to not be abortifacient. Then what happens to our argument against the SUPER pill at that point? Those who are farmiliar with the pro-life objection against the pill because of its abortifacient nature would now conclude that we should accept this new pill because our objection is no longer a problem.
So I always try and base my objections on criteria that would be understood and accepted by someone living now, 2000 years ago, or 2000 years from now. Let me know if you need clarification, Liz. God love you.
“what do you mean by “After activation”? That’s a new term that I’ve never heard…..”
It’s an imaginary pro-abortion term used to justify the intentional destruction of the zygote and deny the scientific reality that a new human life begins at the point of fertilization.
Oliver, one of the reasons why America is in serious trouble is that we have become a country full of “elites” who are actually incredibly ignorant. Barack Obama, the king of the elites, is the best example. He is revered as a demigod by these people, in spite of the fact that he has really never actually done anything noteworthy in his entire life. Even before he became president they spoke as if he was already the greatest president of all time. Now he’s been president for a couple of weeks and has made countless errors. If his stumbling and bumbling continues, we’re going to be in some very hot water as a country.
And the same goes for the rest of the elites who think that they know something that the rest of us don’t because they spent more time in a classroom. I personally went to college for four years, and I honestly think I’ve learned far more since I’ve been out of college than I learned while there.
Albert Einstein said it best: “As the circle of light increases, so too does the circumference of the darkness around it.”
The person who sneers at “commoners” and claims to be an expert on something probably isn’t really an expert on anything.
Anyway, for a “pro-life” “Catholic”, Josephine sure does seem to be hostile toward both pro-lifers and Catholics, doesn’t she? Too bad her arrogant elitism overrides her reliance upon scientific reality or the Magisterium.
very nice point in your second paragraph Bobby B! I concur (not that it means anything!!)
Great Explanation. :) I am very much against any form of contraception, barrier methods included.
“It’s an imaginary pro-abortion term used to justify the intentional destruction of the zygote and deny the scientific reality that a new human life begins at the point of fertilization.”
Actually, it’s a term I learned in my biology classes in college. At a pretty darn good school. Nice try, though. :)
“Im also curious, are you a pre-Med at an out of US school or at a particular school in New Jersey? Whatever they sell you, good luck trying to land residency if so.”
Actually, I just recently got accepted to Northwestern University. You’ve probably never heard of it. ;)
“The person who sneers at “commoners” and claims to be an expert on something probably isn’t really an expert on anything.”
It was actually Elisabeth who was the expert, John. Not me! :)
“Josephine claims egg activation does not occur if a woman is no hormonal birth control and thus the egg is unable to become fertilized. I have NEVER heard this claim before, and it is not listed as a functional mechanism on any birth control I’ve seen.”
Uhm, that’s because it’s not on a birth control handout. That would be weird. It’s in my biology books, and I’ve already cited a source. Like I said, I’m not having the same argument. You want to argue with someone, take it up with the DOCTOR who teaches my class, or the DOCTOR that wrote the book.
Or, you can continue what you’re all doing, googling information that you don’t completely understand or know if it’s credible.
John, you’re not from Illinois. I am. He’s been representing us for a long time, and doing a good job. You don’t agree with him: guess what, you’re stuck with him. I really wish I didn’t have to defend people like you, who do NOTHING but complain, and you absolutely don’t better the situation or country one bit. Instead, people like me fight for “freedom” when, in reality, you don’t want freedom at all. Really.
” Now he’s been president for a couple of weeks and has made countless errors. If his stumbling and bumbling continues, we’re going to be in some very hot water as a country.”
First of all, this is the best relations have been with other countries for YEARS. YEARS. They actually respect America again. It’s a miracle! Second of all, what errors has he made, John? The only error I can think of is his appointments: which he admitted he was wrong about. So, PLEASE clarify?
Oh, Oliver, about landing residency, I actually have a hospital waiting for me in Chicago. When you carry about a 3.9gpa, that’s what happens early on. Nice try, though. :)
To echo what Bobby said, Liz, we Catholics are opposed to artificial birth control for a reason which has nothing to do with life and death.
Catholic teaching states that the sex act should always be two things: unitive and procreative. In other words, a married couple should always be brought together emotionally and spiritually by the act, and they should always be open to the possibility of procreation. This represents the complete giving of a man and a woman to each other, which is what a Catholic marriage is supposed to be – “and the two shall become one flesh.”
If a couple uses artificial birth control, they are holding back something from each other. They are not fully sharing their selves with their spouses. Therefore, the Catholic Church teaches that the use of condoms, birth control pills, or other forms of artificial contraception is a sin against marriage. It is a husband and wife saying to each other that they are unwilling to give of themselves completely to each other.
The Catholic Church only approves of Natural Family Planning as a means of either encouraging or delaying pregnancy. NFP seeks to give a couple as much information about the woman’s body as possible, so that the couple will know when the woman is ovulating. This information is used, as I stated, to either help a couple have a child or to delay a child. But a couple who uses NFP is always open to the possibility of pregnancy, as no physical or chemical barriers are used to hold back their fertility from each other.
We Catholics also understand that most Christians (including dissident Catholics) disagree with Catholic teaching on artificial contraception, but as for me, I don’t really expect anyone to follow it except for Catholics. Though I do wish that it would expand beyond Catholics to an extent, as the Catholic couples who have used NFP tend to be happy and have extremely low divorce rates.
“Though I do wish that it would expand beyond Catholics to an extent, as the Catholic couples who have used NFP tend to be happy and have extremely low divorce rates.”
How about their “annulment” rates?
Josephine says “Uhm, that’s because it’s not on a birth control handout. That would be weird. It’s in my biology books, and I’ve already cited a source. Like I said, I’m not having the same argument. You want to argue with someone, take it up with the DOCTOR who teaches my class, or the DOCTOR that wrote the book.
Or, you can continue what you’re all doing, googling information that you don’t completely understand or know if it’s credible. ”
Ok, first of all it wouldn’t be “weird” to put the functional mechinisms of a drug in a drug pamphlet. That’s what they do. They say they stop ovulation, thicken the cervical mucus, and change the endometrium lining. They could easily say “oh and by the way this also changes the composition of the egg making it impossible to fertilize.”
The fact that you make the statement ” A fertilized egg doesn’t mean any of the qualities of life until after activation. ” shows me how misugided you really are. Fertilization doesn’t occur until after activation. Activation is the process by which an egg is fertilized. The final step in this process is amphimixis, which is “fertilization” in common usage. I understand the process completely, because shockingly, I’ve also taken courses on human reproduction! You claim to have already posted your sources in some mystical “other” thread, but since I obviously was not a part of that conversation you could easily re post your source in this thread.
If there is some magical function of birth control that fundementally changes a human ovum making it impossible to be fertilized, it would be something worth knowing.
It’s fertilized already. Doesn’t make it impossible to fertilize.
“. Activation is the process by which an egg is fertilized.”
You’re wrong. Activation is TWO STEPS after fertilization. I have NO idea where you got your info, but it’s straight up wrong.
Lauren, “mystical other thread” so basically, you want me to search FOR YOU? You can do it yourself. Plenty of other people were involved in it. :)
“If there is some magical function of birth control that fundementally changes a human ovum making it impossible to be fertilized, it would be something worth knowing. ”
Again, that’s not what activation is. Sooo you’re entire post doesn’t make sense.
“Actually, I just recently got accepted to Northwestern University. You’ve probably never heard of it. ;)”
Congratulations Josephine!!!!!!
And this I LOVE:
“Oh, Oliver, about landing residency, I actually have a hospital waiting for me in Chicago. When you carry about a 3.9gpa, that’s what happens early on. Nice try, though. :)
Posted by: Josephine at February 12, 2009 3:09 PM
Oh the places you will go, young Josephine!
Asitis,
Thank you so much! I really, really appreciate it. You’ve always been so nice!!
Lauren: I direct you to my 2:48pm post.
Josephine had this discussion on another thread and insisted that a “fertilized egg” does not have any of the “qualities of life” by which I think she means it has none of the qualities of a living cell and is therefore not only not a living cell but not a human life either.
However, she is wrong on both counts. Fertilization and fusion of the sperm and egg take place in under a second.
After which it changes compositon and behavior.
My information is NOT taken from google but comes from a well respected Professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy at a medical school. The statements are factual and can be found in any textbook on embryology.
“First of all, this is the best relations have been with other countries for YEARS. YEARS. They actually respect America again. It’s a miracle!”
You are probably too young to remember when George W. Bush come into office, or Bill Clinton, but other countries always show goodwill to the new American president. It’s not miraculous; it always happens. It’s up to Obama to hold on to that goodwill, and he’s done a poor job of that so far.
“Second of all, what errors has he made, John? The only error I can think of is his appointments: which he admitted he was wrong about. So, PLEASE clarify?”
Well, you apparently know all about the appointments of the NUMEROUS tax cheats and incompetents, so let’s move on to some of his other blunders, any one of which would have gotten GWB crucified by the media:
#1 – Obama was AWOL during the ice storms in Kentucky. GWB was condemned for not flying down to New Orleans during Katrina. During the ice storms, Obama was ‘laxin’ in the White House. Where’s the outrage?
#2 – Obama was criticized by India for some remarks he made over the Kashmir territory. Faux pas?
#3 – Obama apparently enjoys keeping the Oval Office at a toasty 80 degrees F! Meanwhile he’s sitting in there with just shirt sleeves. I guess Obama has decided that global warming is a hoax? Does he not own a jacket or a sweater?
#4 – Obama’s protectionist policies have already upset some of our European allies. That goodwill has already begun to drain away.
#5 – The $800 billion pork bill. Whoops, I mean “stimulus”. Even Chuck Schumer admitted that the bill is chock full of pork. Obama, mocking the opposition, laughed that “spending” is the same thing as “stimulus”! Really? And here I thought that we were in this mess because we spent too much money.
#6 – Obama drew criticism from the mayor of Las Vegas when he told people not to go there. Obama later explained that his remarks were misunderstood. Articulate!
#7 – Obama promised, “No lobbyists!” And yet he has appointed lobbyists to high positions in his administration. What the Foca??
#8 – Obama promised “Change!” And yet he’s doing the same stuff Clinton did 16 years ago, and is using Clinton’s goon squad to do it! Where’s the change at?
#9 – Turns out that Obama’s “tax cuts for the middle class” are going to amount to about $13 a week. Wow, that’s going to help the economy alright! Don’t worry, though; when he punishes big business for making money, the price of your groceries will go up by $25 a week.
#10 – Obama has announced that he is going to continue AND EXPAND the rendition program. ‘Nuff said.
…and it’s only been a few weeks. What next?
“How about their “annulment” rates?”
And yet more anti-Catholic hostility from the “Catholic” Josephine. Hey, Josephine, do me a favor. When you kill your first patient out of extreme negligence and incompetence, don’t try to hide it. Turn yourself in. We’ll all be better off.
Josephine, I’m refering to fertilization as the “moment of conception” which is actually technically labeled amphimixis.
Amphimixis is the final stage of egg activation.
Thus, egg activation occurs before “fertilization”.
Egg activation is literally the process that moves the ovum out of metaphase I of meiosis and allows it to continue to develop to amphimixis and then to mitosis.
This occurs after the sperm has entered the egg, but before the nuclei have fused.
Josephine: “Actually, I just recently got accepted to Northwestern University. You’ve probably never heard of it. ;)”
Keep living in fantasy land.
By the way, I thought you said you were already a pre-med student? Sounds like, even if you are not making this up, you have 0 medical experience actually. Hm, better get your story straight!
By the way, what was the MCAT like? How did you feel about the questions? What did you score? Im curious, because it is pretty difficult to get into NW, but not difficult to apply. I dont think you honestly have the cognitive abilities to score the MCAT. Maybe, maybe you could data dump on the Bio section. There is no way you could reason your way out of a paper bag on the Chem or Verbal sections, given your gross ignorance.
“My information is NOT taken from google but comes from a well respected Professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy at a medical school. The statements are factual and can be found in any textbook on embryology.”
Prove it. It differs extremely from the doctor at school, and the doctor who wrote my textbook.
“but other countries always show goodwill to the new American president. It’s not miraculous; it always happens.”
Other countries actually let us know they didn’t want John McCain from very early on in the election. It was a survey done of over 100 countries.
1. What was Obama going to do? Please, tell me what he would have done about ice storms?
3. Every president has their own preferences about “shirt sleeves”… Bill Clinton wore shirt sleeves. Big deal. You’re right– that makes him a TERRIBLE president. I’m not going to get into Republicans who don’t believe in science and proven facts. I already talk about them daily in my classes.
5. If he did nothing, you’d complain about that. We’ve been getting tax cuts for years. Guess how that’s worked out for us!
6. Please, after eight years of the most stupid President ever, let’s not talk about Obama’s like, four slip ups.
8. Change from Bush. Bill Clinton was a GREAT President. I’d love if HE were President again.
9. You aren’t a financial expert. You can’t tell the future. You have NO idea what’s going to happen. So, let’s stop assuming things you can’t prove.
10. Yeah, rendition existed under Bush. Except people were getting terribly beaten then.
Oliver, I am a pre-med student. I am also a MEDIC/LPN. Yes, I have medical experience. It’s from over a year of intense army training.
Fantasy land? Northwestern is a pretty prestigious school, dude.
Oliver, do you have any education outside of high school? First of all, you don’t take the MCAT ’til you apply to medical school. Which I will not be doing until I’m a senior. I’ve repeated over and over that I’m a junior. It’s not difficult to get into Northwestern with a great GPA, great recommendations, and military experience.
You realize the U of I is one of the BEST schools in the country for science, right? Which is where I take my chemistry and biology.
John, unfortunately for you, I care about more lives than just those of unborn babies and strangers on the internet. ;)
Egg activation is literally the process that moves the ovum out of metaphase I of meiosis and allows it to continue to develop to amphimixis and then to mitosis.
This occurs after the sperm has entered the egg, but before the nuclei have fused.
Posted by: Lauren at February 12, 2009 3:35 PM
Lauren if the sperm has entered the egg at this point, then fertilization has occured. A zygote now exists different from gamete cells. The zygote is now directing the processes.
In the first 30 minutes the maternally derived nucleus completes its final round of meiotic division. (there is one set of paternal DNA and two sets of maternal DNA) Is this after cell activation Lauren?
Egg activation PREPARES the fertilized egg for development. The FERTILIZED EGG doesn’t develop before activation. It can’t. What you’re both saying doesn’t make sense.
Activation is BEFORE it’s a zygote, and AFTER it’s a fertilized egg.
Josephine: “Oliver, do you have any education outside of high school? First of all, you don’t take the MCAT ’til you apply to medical school.”
I thought you said you were accepted at NW med school. I misread. I now realize that you are talking about being a “pre-med” student as in someone who is taking biology 101. Whats more, youre a freshman. For some reason I couldnt accept that you were acting like 2.5 years of undergrad work would give you a sufficient basis for understanding the human body. You continue to lower youself with every post….but my bad. I thought you were claiming you were a med student in my mind.
By the way, you might want to rethink your MCAT study strategy. You should be taking it your junior year, because you will more than likely have a lot of trouble scoring well, especially considering that you already had to take a prep course for the ACT. The MCAT is the real deal, and you wont be able to dump information on the page like in your college courses. In fact, you really need a 30+ to be a contender, and thats roughly 75%.
Ok, look Josephine, we already established that I was using the term “fertilization” to refer to amphimixis.
You are obviously using it to refer to the moment the sperm enters the egg.
In that case egg activation occurs after “fertilization” but before amphimixis. That’s fine.
It still does nothing to support your claim that somehow egg activation does not occur if someone is using hormonal birth control.
Oliver at 3:56 was me, sorry.
Here’s a handy chart explaining the process by which an egg is fertilized.
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4584/2354/1600/fertilization.jpg
What are talking about? A freshman? I’m a junior. I’m also a practicing medic and LPN. I also have lived with a doctor my whole life, and worked in a hospital.
Oliver, you’re making yourself look dumb. You apparently don’t even know that a college junior is in no way taking “bio 101” (since I took that in high school..)
I’ve taken a mock MCAT. First of all, they won’t accept scores yet. Second of all, I did fantastic on my mock MCAT.
“For some reason I couldnt accept that you were acting like 2.5 years of undergrad work would give you a sufficient basis for understanding the human body”
This is hilarious to me. You apparently don’t know anything about the high standards of the military medics and nurses. :)
Lauren, what you’re saying goes against everything I’ve learned. And the chart you posted looks like it’s from an elementary school book or a newspaper. It’s too small to read and it doesn’t even come with a source.
It was my fault for using the term “fertlization” to broadly, but my point re: birth control’s actions on reproduction are not affected.
Here’s the text of my chart since it’s a bit hard to read
1) Ovulation releases a secondary Oocyte and the first polar bodl both are surrounded by the corona aradiata. he oocyte is suspended in metaphase of meiosis II.
2) Acromosal enzymes from multiple sperm create gaps in the corna radiata. A single sperm then makes contact with the ooocyte membrate and membrane fusion occurs, triggering toocyte activation and completion of meiosis II,forming a second polar body
3) the sperm is absorbed into the cytoplasm, and the female pronucleus develops,
4) the male pronucleus develops, and spindle fibbers appear in prepar ation fotr the first cleavage division
5) amphimixis occurs and cleavage begins, metaphase of the first cleavage division
6) the first cleavage divion nears completion roughly 30 hours after fertilization.
So, Josephine, what you must prove is that hormonal contraceptives somehow stop oocyte activation from occuring. You have made this claim but have not backed it up with anything other than the claims that it is in your book. Pull out the book and quote the claim.
Josephine: at this point I will NOT divulge the name except to say that the prof is a woman who is Associate Professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy and the information comes from a special paper she has published which deals with the question of when human life begins.
I will also tell you that since our discussion on this blog I have been unable to find a professor of biology nor a physician who knows what you are referring to when you say “cell activation” leading me to wonder if it is a dated term.
The chart was scanned from the text Fundamentals of Anatomy and Physiology, 7th edition by Frederic H. Martini. It is a complete text used in both undergraduate and graduate level anatomy classes.
I entered the text from the chart in my above post.
Lauren, I’m on campus ’til about seven o’clock tonight. That is why I keep suggesting you find the other thread.
TSTL, the term is fairly new, first of all. Second of all, I can’t believe anything of this “credible source” if you can’t even say where they work.
Activation is BEFORE it’s a zygote, and AFTER it’s a fertilized egg.
Posted by: Josephine at February 12, 2009 3:52 PM
NO Josephine, this is NOT the understanding that embryologists have. The moment of sperm and cell membrane fusion which occurs under 30 seconds is fertilization. Once fusion occurs -it is a zygote. There is NO such thing as a “fertilized egg”. Either it is an egg or a zygote. This was made absolutely clear to me by several embryologists. It no longer an egg – it has none of the characteristics any longer that are solely those of the egg.
Many textbooks place the end of fertilization at the point of syngamy which is when the membranes around the nuceli from the sperm and egg break down in prep for the first cell division. However, this is an arbitrary division.
John L,
“Though I do wish that it [rejection of contraception] would expand beyond Catholics to an extent”
I think there is somewhat of a shift towards this nowadays. I don’t know if you’ve heard of Quiverfull, but it’s a Evangelical (??) movement based on a rejection of birth control and an openness to children. There are several non-Catholic Christians on this site too that are opposed to contraception. I don’t have much more info than that; just kind of a “gut” feeling that our non-Catholic brethren are beginning to pick up the fact that contraception is not God’s way. God love you.
TSTL, the term is fairly new, first of all. Second of all, I can’t believe anything of this “credible source” if you can’t even say where they work.
Posted by: Josephine at February 12, 2009 4:15 PM
I know Josephine, that’s why I won’t post it! :-D
Because even if the person were a Nobel Prize laureate, it still wouldn’t matter to you Josephine. I honestly think right now in your life, it’s more important for you to keep your ideology intact rather than be open to the possibility of truth. I’m not judging you – I was young once too ya know! ;)
TSTL, EVERYTHING you just wrote is WRONG. I’m not kidding. EVERYTHING.
I’m not having THE EXACT SAME ARGUMENT AGAIN. It’s all wrong. Plus, you haven’t provided one source, and frankly I don’t believe you. You’ve shown nothing to back your statements up.
While we’re on the subject of oocyte activation here is a complete discription:
Oocyte activation involves a series of changes in the metabolic activity of the oocyte. .The trigger f or actication is contact and fusion of the cell membranes of the sperm and the oocyte. This process is accompanied by the depolarization of the oocyte membrane due to an increased permeability to the sodium ions. The entry of sodium ions in turn causes the release of calcium ions f rom the smooth endoplasmic reticulm. The sudden rise in Ca2+ levels has important effects includeing the following,
Exocytosis of vesicles located just interior to the oocyte membrane
Completion of meiosis II and formation o tthe second polar Body
Actication of Enzymes that cause a Rapid increase in the cells metabolic rate.
***
Please explain how any of the above processes are prevented from occuring when a woman uses hormonal birth control.
Lauren: would you be kind enough to post the words under the oocyte activation pic for me please?
Josephine, do you have any idea what thread this conversation occured in or roughly how long ago?
TSTL, EVERYTHING you just wrote is WRONG. I’m not kidding. EVERYTHING.
I’m not having THE EXACT SAME ARGUMENT AGAIN. It’s all wrong. Plus, you haven’t provided one source, and frankly I don’t believe you. You’ve shown nothing to back your statements up.
Posted by: Josephine at February 12, 2009 4:23 PM
see I WAS right! :D
Actually, if it were a Nobel Prize laureate, I’d probably think he knew more than my textbook. Random person I don’t know if they even exist and google don’t know more than my college professor and my textbook though. If there’s a sourse more credible then those, I’d believe them, probably. I haven’t seen one yet.
I don’t do my own research. No one on here does. It’s a matter of what you choose to believe. I choose to believe my textbook and my professor.
TSTL, under Oocyte actication the text reads:
Acrosomal enzymes from multiple sperm create gaps in the corona radiata. A single sperm then makes contact with the oocyte memnbrane, and membrane fusion occurs, triggering oocyte activation and completion of meiosis II, forming a second Polar body.
The picture shows the fertilizing spermatozoonn and the second polar body.
Please excuse typo’s I’m copying directly from the text while supervising the fairly active play of a three year old and a 7 month old so I’m not exactly doing the best proof reading.
Oocyte activation involves a series of changes in the metabolic activity of the oocyte. .The trigger f or actication is contact and fusion of the cell membranes of the sperm and the oocyte. This process is accompanied by the depolarization of the oocyte membrane due to an increased permeability to the sodium ions. The entry of sodium ions in turn causes the release of calcium ions f rom the smooth endoplasmic reticulm. The sudden rise in Ca2+ levels has important effects includeing the following,
Exocytosis of vesicles located just interior to the oocyte membrane
Completion of meiosis II and formation o tthe second polar Body
Actication of Enzymes that cause a Rapid increase in the cells metabolic rate.
Posted by: lauren at February 12, 2009 4:24 PM
*******************************************
This is after ferilization and is under the direction of the ZYGOTE – not the gamete cell any longer. The trigger for the cell activation is the fusion of the sperm and cell membranes – which is fertilization.
It was over the break, Lauren. TSTL was part of it. She may remember.
thank you Lauren. You did a great job!! :D
lauren, your man seems to be having a hard time with the fact that a certain someone has a wide, open future full of possibilities ahead of herself! Go cheer him up.
Josephine, I guess my biggest question is still how hormonal birth control allows fertilization, but not oocyte activation. Since the process of oocyte activation begins with contact between the sperm and occyte’s membranes I fail to see how the process is interupted by the presence of excess progesterone in the woman’s body.
Asitis, he’s at work now. He’s frustrated with inconsistancy, as am I. I’m sure Jospehine will be successful at her chosen carrer, I just also think that she should re-examine her beliefs in this particular area. My husband agrees, but has a more “in your face” way of doing things.
I’m beginning to wonder if Oliver was a med school reject, honestly.
Lauren, I have NO idea how it does it. No idea, not going to pretend to know. My knowledge is from a textbook only.
I’m beginning to wonder if Oliver was a med school reject, honestly.
Posted by: Josephine at February 12, 2009 4:38 PM
My thoughts too Josephine. Or maybe just never had the opportunity……..
Lauren, I appreciate that. I really do.
And what I said about Oliver being a med school reject is me HONESTLY wondering if he couldn’t get in, because he seems almost as hostile as John, which is weiiiirrrdd.. but, everyone gets frustrated. Can’t say I don’t.
I enjoyed Oliver’s posts immensely ! :-)
Ok, Josephine, after much digging I found this by you:
“As a biology student I know a fertilized egg doesn’t do any of those things until it implants. If an egg can’t make a home in the womb, it never begins to show the characteristics of life.
Posted by: Josephine at February 3, 2009 12:13 AM”
This statement been demonstrated to be false.
Cytokinesis begins prior to implantation.
Lauren, my book says that’s when egg activation begins. I HAVE NO NEW ARGUMENT. I’ve said so many times I don’t want to have this argument AGAIN, because everything I’m saying is straight from a book. Which is cited in the other thread. Take it up with the textbook publishers.
Ok everyone, you can stop wondering about Oliver’s medical school application status. He never applied to med school, nor does he desire to. He teaches test prep for various graduate programs and has knowledge of the application process involved in all undergrad and graduate programs.
His hostility stems from the fact that he encountering students who are preparing to enter professional programs, yet are unable to comprehend basic logical deductions. Better worded it is not hostility, but fear for the future of our society.
Ok, well Josephine I have to tell you that your book is wrong. Egg activation begins far prior to implantation. You have been misled, and I certainly *would* take it up with the books publishers because this is patently false information.
Given what you now know regarding the processes involved in early zygotic development, do you still support hormonal birth control that would inhibit the implantation of the already dividing zygote/blastocyst?
“As a biology student I know a fertilized egg doesn’t do any of those things until it implants. If an egg can’t make a home in the womb, it never begins to show the characteristics of life.
Posted by: Josephine at February 3, 2009 12:13 AM”
good grief Josephine, did you actually write this?
Well, it seems ironic that he would try to discourage someone that is actually set up pretty well and on her way to a (hopefully) great career.
Lauren, I’m on the shot. I love it. Wouldn’t give it up.
TSTL, As I’ve said a thousand times, it’s a textbook. Argue with it all you want. You haven’t even provided a source, so frankly I think you’re googling/making everything up. I just don’t care, really. :)
Maybe it’s hard for him to see all those bright young things moving onward and upward…. And yes, especially the ones HE thinks aren’t worthy.
Do you enjoy your work Oliver?
Ok, Josephine, the shot acts by changing the endometrium, disallowing implantation. We have shown that cell division occurs far prior to implantation.
We have shown, using an antomy text, this to be the case. The zygote is dividing prior to implantation. This is a medical fact.
Thus, by continuing to use hormonal birth control you are inhibiting the growth of an already living and dividing individual.
You claim this not to be the case, but suppose for a minute that our texts are correct.
Do you still support hormonal birth control?
Bobby, I”m almost positive there was something you said, and ts agreed with, that was something to the effect of, ‘we aren’t against birth control b/c it is an abortificant, because there is no real evidence that it is.”
…right? I remember reading it and going, “hmm…” But I can’t seem to find the thread.
Asitis, it is not that he thinks that they “aren’t worthy” it is that he is truely concerned.
His concern is mostly related to the state of our universities, not the students themselves. American universities do not teach students how to think, they teach them how to data dump. Graduate tests test ability to think, which is a radical departure for most students.
He loves that he is able to introduce a learning paradigm shift to his students, but it frustrates him greatly that it takes a graduate test to introduce a skill that should have been taught in elementary.
However, he loves his work because when he can teach a student to really think, not just data dump, the improvements are huge and carry over far beyond simple testing.
Lauren,
Yes.
Well he sounds bitter. Hopefully he doesn’t project that inthe classroom:…. Ugh……..
If I remember correctly, it is not considered a “pregnancy” until implantation, due to the VARIETY OF FACTORS, including caffeine and other legal stuff, as well as spontaneous processes that may prevent implantation.
Josephine, medical students have notorioiusly bad “data dump” syndrome. It isn’t because they are stupid, it is because they are very driven individuals who are very skilled at memorizing data.
The problem is that memorization of data is not all that medicine requires, and med students often get so focused on details and facts that they do not strenghthen their critical reasoning skills.
To combat this, they actually radically changed the MCAT from a data dump test to a logic test within a medical framework. This has caused a lot of problems for a lot of very smart pre-med students because they have never had to do this sort of thing before and it is such a hard shift.
Now, speaking for myself only, I see a bit of the “data dump” syndrome in your insistance that your specific medical text is correct to the point of ignoring counter evidence. Really examine the issue, looking at other texts and raw sources. I think you are a very smart person, and I think that you have the capability to make a very good doctor, but I think that you must examine issues with a finer comb than a simple acceptance as gospel one text that may or may not completely back your assertions.
Josephine,
Why?
Asitis, Oliver is one of the highest rated instrutors at his company. His students love him and their improvements are phenomenal. His frustrations are directed at the state of our educational institutions, and the sort of learning they promote.
Lauren,
Because I do. Same reason people believe anything.
Pip, you’re correct the medical definition of “pregnancy” was altered from conception to implantation when hormonal birthcontrol was invented so that the birth control providers could claim to “prevent pregnancy” even if they inhibited implantation.
No, Josephine, I’m sorry that’s not good enough. We have to base our beliefs on something other than “because I feel like it.”
There are philosophical and physical underpinnings for our beliefs.
Your original assertion was that you believed in hormonal birth control because the zygote was not yet a life, since that has been demonstrated as a falsehood, you must explain why it is ok to chemically end the life of a blastocyst by preventing implantation and NOT ok to cause a miscarriage of that same blastocyst after implantation.
”
No, Josephine, I’m sorry that’s not good enough. We have to base our beliefs on something other than “because I feel like it.”
Nope, not true. “we” don’t have to, because I haven’t.
“Your original assertion was that you believed in hormonal birth control because the zygote was not yet a life, since that has been demonstrated as a falsehood,”
Again, not true. You claim it’s false, I keep citing my book and professor. Not getting into it again.
“Josephine, medical students have notorioiusly bad “data dump” syndrome.”
Yeah, that’s why my physiology teacher does about 1/2 the test recall, and 1/2 the test applied information (ie. to combat such and such a problem, what would you use?). My microbiology teach did the same thing. Most of the biology teachers are doing the same thing.
Funny story, My micro teacher warned us about how his tests would be part recall and part ‘thinking.’ He said a pre-med student of his told him that 1 hour and 15 minutes was too short of a time to do such “thinking” questions. He said he just looked at him and went “do you think you are going to have an hour and 15 minutes to decide what to do about your patient??”
Good times..
“Pip, you’re correct the medical definition of “pregnancy” was altered from conception to implantation when hormonal birthcontrol was invented ”
Can you give me a source for this?
Ok, Josephine, let me rephrase. A person does not have to justify their beliefs using philosophy or phyical science, but not doing so makes their argument one based purely on subjective feeling and not of logic.
When dealing with matters of life and death, I believe it is important for our beliefs to be examined beyond simple intuition.
As for your assertions regarding life prior to implantation, you refuse to accept any proof other than your text. Though I have directly quoted an anatomy text as well as posted images from the text that prove otherwise, you insist upon standing your ground on your recollection of your text.
Do me a favor. When you get home, look back at the text in the section of fertilization, egg activation, cell division, and implantation and be sure that your recollection matches the actual text.
If the actual text states that no cell division occurs prior to implantation, I suggest you call the editors of the text and notify them that it contains false information.
Finally, if you will, please think about the situation from the perspective that my text is accurate and cell division DOES occur prior to implantation. Examine your support for hormonal birth control measured against both this new information and your opposition to abortion.
Sure, you may not “feel” like birth control is the destruction of life, but really examine the issue. This is moving beyond data dumping and will prove an invaluable skill for your medical carrer.
Pip
Here’s an article discussing the change. Now, granted the article itself is from a website opposed to hormonal contraception, but it sites the raw source material from the ACoG.
http://www.noroomforcontraception.com/Articles/Redefine-Pregnancy-Conception-021.htm
Pip, I’m glad to here you college is trying to get students “thinking” that’s definitely a step in the right direction!
But I wasn’t arguing my belief, and I wasn’t arguing from my own research. I’m arguing what other people are saying from a text book and a professor. My beliefs are my beliefs, and I don’t really care if someone doesn’t like that I think birth control is great.
I don’t think it’s life and death. If a baby is supposed to be born, birth control will fail. Oh well, things happen. I don’t think “life and death” depends on me using birth control. You can say I don’t accept other sources, but you obviously don’t either, otherwise you’d have listened to mine.
As for my medical profession… I will be no where near discussions of birth control, luckily.
Pip, I didn’t know you were in college, which I guess is weird since I didn’t think you were in high school, either. I guess I’m not sure what I thought. Anyway, if you don’t mind me asking, where do you go to school?
Sounds like a nice place. =)
Josephine, I don’t accept your text because I have looked in several other texts and they all support my text. I have not even seen your text, just your interpretation of your text. Show me the direct text and I can better inform my beliefs.
Just answer me this question: If the zygote is living, and it dies because your use of birth control caused it to fail to implant, did you have a role in causing the death of the zygote?
As for my thought exercise: A doctor’s critical thinking impacts way more than birth control options.
My personal beliefs have nothing to do with critical thinking. I can’t tell anyone about my personal beliefs.
Your question is moot: I don’t think it’s living yet. There’s nothing to die.
No, it’s not moot
You don’t think it’s living. But it is. You don’t even have to accept that right now. Just assume for a moment that it is living.
Hypothetically, if a zygote were living and it died because it failed to implant because of your use of birth control, would you be responsible for it’s death?
Your personal beliefs have to do with critical thinking if you aren’t thinking critically about them. I might think that aliens are laying eggs on me because I have freckles, but if I refused to alter this belief dispite evidence, I think you would be concerned about my critical thinking abilities. If I went further and refused to even entertain the posibility that the freckles could really be from access melamine, you’d really be worried.
Granted, my example is taking the situation to the absurd, but it is the same flawed reasoning of refusing to accept evidence contrary to my original belief.
LOL Josephine, did you think I was in middle school? :P I guess that’s not a good sign…
I go to Saint Louis University- I’m about to graduate, then going in their PA program this fall.
Another day, another Obama blunder. I’m lovin’ it:
#11 – Sen. Judd Gregg. In a phony-baloney attempt to feign bipartisanship, Obama picked a Republican Senator for his cabinet. The Republican agreed, at first, but today decided to pass up the opportunity because Barry O’s wacky leftism is just too much. First the porkulus bill, then Obama’s plan to tamper with the census… Gregg refuses to go along with that crap. So much for the new post-partisan era!
Josephine, here’s a question for you – is a blastocyst alive? And if a blastocyst, which is a changing, growing cell, which has human DNA which is different from that of its parents, is NOT alive, at what point does it magically come to life?
Another question for Josephine. If you’re so certain that the blastocyst is not alive, then why don’t you produce the proof of this? After all, if you were to provide this, you personally would end the debate over human embryonic stem cell research, which hinges on whether or not a blastocyst is alive.
Josephine, based upon what you have said in this thread, you would certainly support human embryonic stem cell research. I don’t recall your position on this, but it might be fun to look through the old posts to see if you claim to be against it. That would look bad on your part, wouldn’t it? But I’m not particularly interested in doing that.
Oh btw, the vatican document was “Instruction on respect for human life in its origin and on the dignity of procreation replies to certain questions of the day.” (also read the latest supplement)
It’s a document full of “no’s”, really. No child created outside of the sexual act is legitimate (therefore no no to adopting frozen embryos) and any aid that’s not hormone shots to help infertile couples is also illegitimate (no surrogates, no donors). Also even freezing eggs is not licit.
Which is kind of funny when you think about it, I once read a quote from an old theologian (was it Augustine?) in which he basically stated that sex should only be done a couple times a year (to have babies) but that sex is still a sin, so it would be best if one could have babies without having sex.
Wonder what he would say now!!
Haha, Pip if you pass for middle school you can totally go undercover at planned parenthood.
They’d take one look at me and go “Spy alert spy alert” and sirens would go off and I’d cry.
I don’t know what I thought. I KNEW you were older than high school, it never dawned on me you were in college.. but I also knew you weren’t a (please don’t be offended) “real grown up”. (I swear I don’t mean that to be insulting! I hope you know what I mean!!)
I actually looked into that school! In fact, I was just there the weekend of the 31st!
Pip, I’m glad to here you college is trying to get students “thinking” that’s definitely a step in the right direction!
Posted by: lauren at February 12, 2009 5:46 PM
Lauren, mine had similar testing … and that was back in the 80’s (when cheese rock ruled!)
PIP’s summarized version of Vatican documents and Augustine’s teachings reminds me of when Barry O said that he disagrees with the Republican plan to blow up our public schools.
Anyone got a straw man argument?
Pip,
“Which is kind of funny when you think about it, I once read a quote from an old theologian (was it Augustine?) in which he basically stated that sex should only be done a couple times a year (to have babies) but that sex is still a sin, so it would be best if one could have babies without having sex.”
I think I know what quote you’re talking about, though I don’t remember where it is.
Well, he turned out to be wrong. Augustine is just a theologian and though he was a bishop, he does not speak for the Church in an authoritative sense. We can quote him a lot and use a lot of his arguments, but ultimately our justification for believing what we believe is not based on anyone like Augustine’s arguments, yet the teaching authority of the Church.
…. and PIP and Josephine weren’t even born probably! Oh my goodness……
PiP,
“I”m almost positive there was something you said, and ts agreed with, that was something to the effect of, ‘we aren’t against birth control b/c it is an abortificant, because there is no real evidence that it is.” …right? I remember reading it and going, “hmm…” But I can’t seem to find the thread.”
So I do remember a convo where we were looking at new evidence by a pro-lifer doctor-dude who I trust who had argued that the morning after pill is not abortifacient. That might be it?
The other possibility is the fact it may be the case that since breakthrough ovulations are so rare and then once that happens it would be not guaranteed that the embryo would NOT implant, that in reality, a very very very small % of the time an embryo is actually killed as a result of the pill. I remember talking about that. But I’m quite sure, especially since it says on teh BC instructions, that it is POSSIBLE IN THEORY for an new embryo not implanting to be teh result of hormonal BC.
So yeah. Any of that ring a bell?
Asitis, all my science courses have been Data Dumps, unfortunately.
I had a psych final that was literally just all of the previous tests. I think there were some short answer questions thrown in for good measure, but…come on.
Sadly, my “hard science” courses weren’t any better. I wish I could say it was just one college, but I went to three different schools in two different states and the problem seems to cut across the board. It does give me hope that there are some schools out there that are doing a better job, I just wish I had found them!
But Bobby, aren’t we bound by the biological teachings of a theologian from 1700 years ago? We have no choice but to follow whatever Augustine wrote. Plus we must follow Thomas Aquinas as well, a theologian from 800 years ago, and his teachings based on ancient, disproven human biology. What we must NOT do is listen to the church’s teachings which are based on modern biology. That’s wrong evil bad!
“Asitis, it is not that he thinks that they “aren’t worthy” it is that he is truely concerned.
His concern is mostly related to the state of our universities, not the students themselves. American universities do not teach students how to think, they teach them how to data dump. Graduate tests test ability to think, which is a radical departure for most students.
He loves that he is able to introduce a learning paradigm shift to his students, but it frustrates him greatly that it takes a graduate test to introduce a skill that should have been taught in elementary.
However, he loves his work because when he can teach a student to really think, not just data dump, the improvements are huge and carry over far beyond simple testing.”
Yeah, I have a few things to say about this as well.
In just about all of my elective microbiology courses for my undergrad degree- we have been “taught to think”. A prime example of this was my eukaryotic microbiology course. For this class, we were required to read several journal articles per week, and for each one we had to look through the paper to find what tests were being done and *why* they tested things the way they did. We also had to look through the various figures and graphs to see if the results of the figures and graphs said what the authors claim they did. It was an excellent class on experimental design and how to analyze scientific papers.
Another component to that course were the exams. What he would do is that he’d throw out a problem (ie we want to study YOURFAVORITEGENE in [insert species here]) and we’d have to think and detail *how* we would study said gene and what outcomes we would expect based on our experiments and what those outcomes would mean in terms of the experiment.
It was a very challenging class, and I didn’t work as hard at it as I probably could have. If I’m still at school next year (hopefully I won’t be, and hopefully I’ll be gainfully employed) I have every intention of re-taking that class to get the grade I *know* I could earn if I tried harder and I also want to expand my scientific literacy and improve my ability to critique papers (instead of passively accepting information because some guy with a PhD said it was right).
I wish more classes were taught like that- it was a really great format.
Yes Bobby, that is probably what I was thinking about. Thanks for clarifying!
I realize Augustine isn’t the authority on the Church, but he is a pretty prominent figure in its history. Much of the beliefs in that era were based on theologians like Augustine- if the Church is more than the Pope himself, then this has to be taken into account to see how the “Church” (as a whole) has indeed changed.
Lauren, certainly I has some large first or second year courses that were like that, but by third and fourth year the classes were more intimate and the teaching and testing were quite different.
As an aside, coming from Canada I am amazed at the number and range of post secondary school that are available here. It wasn’t so difficult for us to choose a school in Canada!
Of course the Church has changed. The Catholic Church is one of the only truly progressive institutions in existence.
As G. K. Chesterton wrote:
Morning broke in bitter silver along the grey and level plain; and almost as it did so Turnbull and MacIan came out of a low, scrubby wood on to the empty and desolate flats. They had walked all night.
They had walked all night and talked all night also, and if the subject had been capable of being exhausted they would have exhausted it. Their long and changing argument had taken them through districts and landscapes equally changing. They had discussed Haeckel upon hills so high and steep that in spite of the coldness of the night it seemed as if the stars might burn them. They had explained and re-explained the Massacre of St. Bartholomew in little white lanes walled in with standing corn as with walls of gold. They had talked about Mr. Kensit in dim and twinkling pine woods, amid the bewildering monotony of the pines. And it was with the end of a long speech from MacIan, passionately defending the practical achievements and the solid prosperity of the Catholic tradition, that they came out upon the open land.
MacIan had learnt much and thought more since he came out of the cloudy hills of Arisaig. He had met many typical modern figures under circumstances which were sharply symbolic; and, moreover, he had absorbed the main modern atmosphere from the mere presence and chance phrases of Turnbull, as such atmospheres can always be absorbed from the presence and the phrases of any man of great mental vitality. He had at last begun thoroughly to understand what are the grounds upon which the mass of the modern world solidly disapprove of her creed; and he threw himself into replying to them with a hot intellectual enjoyment.
“I begin to understand one or two of your dogmas, Mr. Turnbull,” he had said emphatically as they ploughed heavily up a wooded hill. “And every one that I understand I deny. Take any one of them you like. You hold that your heretics and sceptics have helped the world forward and handed on a lamp of progress. I deny it. Nothing is plainer from real history than that each of your heretics invented a complete cosmos of his own which the next heretic smashed entirely to pieces. Who knows now exactly what Nestorius taught? Who cares? There are only two things that we know for certain about it. The first is that Nestorius, as a heretic, taught something quite opposite to the teaching of Arius, the heretic who came before him, and something quite useless to James Turnbull, the heretic who comes after. I defy you to go back to the Free-thinkers of the past and find any habitation for yourself at all. I defy you to read Godwin or Shelley or the deists of the eighteenth century of the nature-worshipping humanists of the Renaissance, without discovering that you differ from them twice as much as you differ from the Pope. You are a nineteenth-century sceptic, and you are always telling me that I ignore the cruelty of nature. If you had been an eighteenth-century sceptic you would have told me that I ignore the kindness and benevolence of nature. You are an atheist, and you praise the deists of the eighteenth century. Read them instead of praising them, and you will find that their whole universe stands or falls with the deity. You are a materialist, and you think Bruno a scientific hero. See what he said and you will think him an insane mystic. No, the great Free-thinker, with his genuine ability and honesty, does not in practice destroy Christianity. What he does destroy is the Free-thinker who went before. Free-thought may be suggestive, it may be inspiriting, it may have as much as you please of the merits that come from vivacity and variety. But there is one thing Free-thought can never be by any possibility–Free-thought can never be progressive. It can never be progressive because it will accept nothing from the past; it begins every time again from the beginning; and it goes every time in a different direction. All the rational philosophers have gone along different roads, so it is impossible to say which has gone farthest. Who can discuss whether Emerson was a better optimist than Schopenhauer was pessimist? It is like asking if this corn is as yellow as that hill is steep. No; there are only two things that really progress; and they both accept accumulations of authority. They may be progressing uphill and down; they may be growing steadily better or steadily worse; but they have steadily increased in certain definable matters; they have steadily advanced in a certain definable direction; they are the only two things, it seems, that ever can progress. The first is strictly physical science. The second is the Catholic Church.”
“Physical science and the Catholic Church!” said Turnbull sarcastically; “and no doubt the first owes a great deal to the second.”
“If you pressed that point I might reply that it was very probable,” answered MacIan calmly. “I often fancy that your historical generalizations rest frequently on random instances; I should not be surprised if your vague notions of the Church as the persecutor of science was a generalization from Galileo. I should not be at all surprised if, when you counted the scientific investigations and discoveries since the fall of Rome, you found that a great mass of them had been made by monks. But the matter is irrelevant to my meaning. I say that if you want an example of anything which has progressed in the moral world by the same method as science in the material world, by continually adding to without unsettling what was there before, then I say that there is only one example of it. And that is Us.”
“With this enormous difference,” said Turnbull, “that however elaborate be the calculations of physical science, their net result can be tested. Granted that it took millions of books I never read and millions of men I never heard of to discover the electric light. Still I can see the electric light. But I cannot see the supreme virtue which is the result of all your theologies and sacraments.”
“Catholic virtue is often invisible because it is the normal,” answered MacIan. “Christianity is always out of fashion because it is always sane; and all fashions are mild insanities. When Italy is mad on art the Church seems too Puritanical; when England is mad on Puritanism the Church seems too artistic. When you quarrel with us now you class us with kingship and despotism; but when you quarrelled with us first it was because we would not accept the divine despotism of Henry VIII. The Church always seems to be behind the times, when it is really beyond the times; it is waiting till the last fad shall have seen its last summer. It keeps the key of a permanent virtue.”
“Oh, I have heard all that!” said Turnbull with genial contempt. “I have heard that Christianity keeps the key of virtue, and that if you read Tom Paine you will cut your throat at Monte Carlo. It is such rubbish that I am not even angry at it. You say that Christianity is the prop of morals; but what more do you do? When a doctor attends you and could poison you with a pinch of salt, do you ask whether he is a Christian? You ask whether he is a gentleman, whether he is an M.D.–anything but that. When a soldier enlists to die for his country or disgrace it, do you ask whether he is a Christian? You are more likely to ask whether he is Oxford or Cambridge at the boat race. If you think your creed essential to morals why do you not make it a test for these things?”
“We once did make it a test for these things,” said MacIan smiling, “and then you told us that we were imposing by force a faith unsupported by argument. It seems rather hard that having first been told that our creed must be false because we did use tests, we should now be told that it must be false because we don’t. But I notice that most anti-Christian arguments are in the same inconsistent style.”
“That is all very well as a debating-club answer,” replied Turnbull good-humouredly, “but the question still remains: Why don’t you confine yourself more to Christians if Christians are the only really good men?”
“Who talked of such folly?” asked MacIan disdainfully. “Do you suppose that the Catholic Church ever held that Christians were the only good men? Why, the Catholics of the Catholic Middle Ages talked about the virtues of all the virtuous Pagans until humanity was sick of the subject. No, if you really want to know what we mean when we say that Christianity has a special power of virtue, I will tell you. The Church is the only thing on earth that can perpetuate a type of virtue and make it something more than a fashion. The thing is so plain and historical that I hardly think you will ever deny it. You cannot deny that it is perfectly possible that tomorrow morning, in Ireland or in Italy, there might appear a man not only as good but good in exactly the same way as St. Francis of Assisi. Very well, now take the other types of human virtue; many of them splendid. The English gentleman of Elizabeth was chivalrous and idealistic. But can you stand still here in this meadow and be an English gentleman of Elizabeth? The austere republican of the eighteenth century, with his stern patriotism and his simple life, was a fine fellow. But have you ever seen him? have you ever seen an austere republican? Only a hundred years have passed and that volcano of revolutionary truth and valour is as cold as the mountains of the moon. And so it is and so it will be with the ethics which are buzzing down Fleet Street at this instant as I speak. What phrase would inspire the London clerk or workman just now? Perhaps that he is a son of the British Empire on which the sun never sets; perhaps that he is a prop of his Trades Union, or a class-conscious proletarian something or other; perhaps merely that he is a gentleman when he obviously is not. Those names and notions are all honourable; but how long will they last? Empires break; industrial conditions change; the suburbs will not last for ever. What will remain? I will tell you. The Catholic Saint will remain.”
“And suppose I don’t like him?” said Turnbull.
“On my theory the question is rather whether he will like you: or more probably whether he will ever have heard of you. But I grant the reasonableness of your query. You have a right, if you speak as the ordinary man, to ask if you will like the saint. But as the ordinary man you do like him. You revel in him. If you dislike him it is not because you are a nice ordinary man, but because you are (if you will excuse me) a sophisticated prig of a Fleet Street editor. That is just the funny part of it. The human race has always admired the Catholic virtues, however little it can practise them; and oddly enough it has admired most those of them that the modern world most sharply disputes. You complain of Catholicism for setting up an ideal of virginity; it did nothing of the kind. The whole human race set up an ideal of virginity; the Greeks in Athene, the Romans in the Vestal fire, set up an ideal of virginity. What then is your real quarrel with Catholicism? Your quarrel can only be, your quarrel really only is, that Catholicism has achieved an ideal of virginity; that it is no longer a mere piece of floating poetry. But if you, and a few feverish men, in top hats, running about in a street in London, choose to differ as to the ideal itself, not only from the Church, but from the Parthenon whose name means virginity, from the Roman Empire which went outwards from the virgin flame, from the whole legend and tradition of Europe, from the lion who will not touch virgins, from the unicorn who respects them, and who make up together the bearers of your own national shield, from the most living and lawless of your own poets, from Massinger, who wrote the Virgin Martyr, from Shakespeare, who wrote Measure for Measure–if you in Fleet Street differ from all this human experience, does it never strike you that it may be Fleet Street that is wrong?”
“No,” answered Turnbull; “I trust that I am sufficiently fair-minded to canvass and consider the idea; but having considered it, I think Fleet Street is right, yes–even if the Parthenon is wrong. I think that as the world goes on new psychological atmospheres are generated, and in these atmospheres it is possible to find delicacies and combinations which in other times would have to be represented by some ruder symbol. Every man feels the need of some element of purity in sex; perhaps they can only typify purity as the absence of sex. You will laugh if I suggest that we may have made in Fleet Street an atmosphere in which a man can be so passionate as Sir Lancelot and as pure as Sir Galahad. But, after all, we have in the modern world erected many such atmospheres. We have, for instance, a new and imaginative appreciation of children.”
“Quite so,” replied MacIan with a singular smile. “It has been very well put by one of the brightest of your young authors, who said: ‘Unless you become as little children ye shall in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven.’ But you are quite right; there is a modern worship of children. And what, I ask you, is this modern worship of children? What, in the name of all the angels and devils, is it except a worship of virginity? Why should anyone worship a thing merely because it is small or immature? No; you have tried to escape from this thing, and the very thing you point to as the goal of your escape is only the thing again. Am I wrong in saying that these things seem to be eternal?”
And it was with these words that they came in sight of the great plains. They went a little way in silence, and then James Turnbull said suddenly, “But I cannot believe in the thing.” MacIan answered nothing to the speech; perhaps it is unanswerable. And indeed they scarcely spoke another word to each other all that day.
http://www.classicreader.com/book/2241/8/
John,
The evolution of the Church was pretty much the point of my post. What would Augustine say to the document? I can’t even imagine! It was a lighthearted aside..
TSTL, As I’ve said a thousand times, it’s a textbook. Argue with it all you want. You haven’t even provided a source, so frankly I think you’re googling/making everything up. I just don’t care, really. :)
Posted by: Josephine at February 12, 2009 5:01 PM
if that works for you, great! :-D
“The person who sneers at “commoners” and claims to be an expert on something probably isn’t really an expert on anything.”
It was actually Elisabeth who was the expert, John. Not me! :)
At what time and in what post did I claim to be an expert on what topic?
As for all of the so-called and intend-to-be credentials… I ama Registered Nurse. What I have been taught in my textbooks and courses lines up with the information presented by Lauren.
Unless you can give us something besides, “Because the book in front of me says so”… especially when coupling it with, “I don’t know how it works, it’s what the book says” then your statements don’t carry much credibility.
Quite honestly, I’ve worked with my share of residents who couldn’t think their way out of a paper bag. It’s quite scary. There are doctors who when we find out they are on shift we pray we don’t need them for anything that night!
(One, no matter what the problem is, will simply say, “Very interesting. We’ll dicuss a solution in the morning during rounds.” Um… idiot… we need a solution NOW not 5 hours from now!)
You know the old saying, “What do they call the guy who scored the lowest passing score in medical school? DOCTOR.”
“What would Augustine say to the document? I can’t even imagine!”
I think, being the good Catholic that he is, that he would submit his will to the church.
Bobby- you know he would be in a sort of dismay though :P
Josephine do you realize that you have gone from stating that the “fertilized egg” is not living to now stating that a zygote is now not a living organism.
So at what stage do you believe life begins? And how did you decide this?
PIP, thinking about the reaction Augustine would have to Catholic doctrine based on modern Biology would be like trying to figure out what Confuscius would think of the iPhone. Or, as Chesterton wrote, it would be like discussing whether this corn is as yellow as that hill is steep. Augustine’s theology was based upon ancient biological understandings from 1700 years ago. You may be innocently and light-heartedly talking about such things, but in the real world, the arguments of Augustine have been abused by deceitful pro-aborts to justify the slaughter of unborn children. That makes me a bit sensitive whenever his name is brought up.
TSTL, Josephine doesn’t need to tell you when she learned that life doesn’t begin until after conception. After all, she’s a medical student, and medical students know everything.
“Bobby- you know he would be in a sort of dismay though :P”
Ha! No doubt.
Didn’t mean to offend you John. I enjoyed Augustine’s writing. It’s interesting to compare his Platonic view to Aquinas’ Aristotilean (sp?) interpretation. I’m getting my minor in theology and yes I do realize there is a context to all of the documents….
Btw, anyone here read “The Original Revolution” by Yoder? Beginning to read it and enjoy it quite a bit…
TSTL, Josephine doesn’t need to tell you when she learned that life doesn’t begin until after conception. After all, she’s a medical student, and medical students know everything.
Posted by: John Lewandowski at February 12, 2009 8:33 PM
Apparently she’s a PRE-medical student. They know even more.
“It’s interesting to compare his Platonic view to Aquinas’ Aristotilean (sp?) interpretation.”
Yeah, I also enjoy the fact that Augustine is like the “new” Plato and Aquinas is the “new” Aristotle. Would Jesus be like the “new” Socrates? Sounds like heresy to me…
“Would Jesus be like the “new” Socrates? Sounds like heresy to me”
LOL definitely heretical :P
“Unless you can give us something besides, “Because the book in front of me says so”… especially when coupling it with, “I don’t know how it works, it’s what the book says” then your statements don’t carry much credibility.”
Yes, because you’re out in a labratory researching for yourself? You’re doing the EXACT same thing I am. Reading from other sources.
“Apparently she’s a PRE-medical student. They know even more.”
Almost as much as nurses! ;)
I wish you’d stop pretending I’m not an LPN and medic. In the field, I have to act as a doctor. Have you ever had to do that, as a nurse? :)
TSTL, you have no sources. You’re not doing research, and I’m done with the discussion with you.
Bobby, if Augustine is the new Plato and Aquinas is the new Aristotle, then the new Socrates is Paul, not Jesus.
Ultimately, the intellectual capability of ALL of those men flowed from the Eternal Word.
Josephine- is it really necessary to denigrate nurses in order to satisfy your own ego?
“In the field, I have to act as a doctor. Have you ever had to do that, as a nurse? :)”
I don’t usually use this internet expression, but…
Wow. Just wow.
This here internet ain’t big enuff fer a certain someone’s ego.
Elizabeth :”You know the old saying, “What do they call the guy who scored the lowest passing score in medical school? DOCTOR.””
Ive never heard that one, but I like it.
Just for the record, I am currently getting my undergraduate degree after taking some time off for my family. I am still debating whether or not I want to pursue a JD/MD joint program, a JD/PhD in Physics or Philosophy, or just a straight JD. So all the speculation about my “frustrated” learning career is incorrect.
(There is also a difference between being encouraged to critically think and to be taught to critically think. Unfortunately the second is incredibly hard to accomplish, and really one or two “hip” profs are insufficient for this. The Socratic method should be used on 4th graders. Its a shame that our children dont master basic Algebra by elementary school.)
Josephine: “I don’t think it’s life and death. If a baby is supposed to be born, birth control will fail. Oh well, things happen.”
This has to be the quote of the day. Do you use that same logic when it applies to other methods of destruction?
“Its not life and death. If the clerk is not meant to be shot, the gun will jame. Things happen”
Or
“If my kid is supposed to get dinner, some random stranger will bring food to him/her”
By the way, I didnt tell you to send your MCAT scores to your school now. I said to take the test now. You are making a huge mistake to wait to take the test with the thought that the first try will be sufficient for you.
Im curious, since you are claiming that your know so much about the human body from your experience, despite that you are using blatantly false information, how many years have you actively served as a nurse? Roughly how many times have you used your medic skills? If I remember correctly, your boyfriend is 21 and youve been dating for 5 years, so unless you were “robbing the cradle” you are pretty young yourself. I wonder how much of your story so far is bravado.
How have you done on your practice MCATs anyways? Since you have such a great understanding of the human body, and also have a great ability to critically reason, Im sure youre already nailing down Harvard level scores on your bio section right?
Holy cow… Rae and I agree on something. Day-um!
“Have you ever had to do that, as a nurse? :)”
That’s not a very nice thing to say, Josephine. I know many nurses who are incredibly competent at their field and could/do perform duties “as a doctor” when needed to.
Im actually interested if Josephine has EVER had to use her medic skills on the field. I have a couple of medic friends who have done multiple tours in Iraq, and neither of them were placed in a situation to use their skills. Jospehine is going to be deployed earlier this year, so unless she deployed before, she hasnt used her skills. If she deployed before, she would have to be one of the few unlucky ones who had to make use of her “skills” and even then, it was most likely a once or twice deal. (It would also imply that she is a couple years older than her boyfriend, who she has been dating since he was 16, which is interesting in its own tangental way….)
Rae, is it really fair to insult med students, when I’ve said over and over my information is from a book, not from myself? I didn’t write anything I’m saying: neither did anyone else.
I didn’t say I “know more” than anyone. So why the hostility? No reason. I’m a nurse, myself, Rae. Don’t forget that.
I got an immature comment, and shot it back. It never originally came out of MY fingers.
Oliver– I got a 10 in verbal reasoning, 12 in physical sciences and a 13 in biological sciences. None of that stuff is your business, but you’re getting more annoying, honestly.
I’m 20. I became a medic and an lpn when I was 17. I work at a hospital, and when I’m at home I work at a doctor’s office. I am in the field as a medic a couple times a year, and I’ll be leaving for Iraq in March to be a medic there until June/July-ish.
PIP, I work as a nurse.
Oliver, stop assuming about my life. Because you have friends that are medics really doesn’t mean anything. Especially since everything is different with every single unit. So unless your friends are in my unit… ;)
@John: If hell exists- I do believe it just froze over.
Josephine :”I’m 20. I became a medic and an lpn when I was 17. I work at a hospital, and when I’m at home I work at a doctor’s office. I am in the field as a medic a couple times a year, and I’ll be leaving for Iraq in March to be a medic there until June/July-ish.”
So thats code for “Okay guys, I havent actually any experience in the field either.”
Im curious, what was your medical experience in that doctor’s office? What about in the hospital, and how long did you get experience there?
By the way, just so you know, you brought up the “Hey I know what Im talking about because of all my awesome experience.” Were only calling you out on your bravado.
Ill have to balk at the MCAT scores too, considering you made up the “working as a doctor in the field” part.
“I got an immature comment, and shot it back. It never originally came out of MY fingers.”
Yes, but you had the opportunity to not be immature in return. It is not someone else’s fault if you said something rude. Even though you work as a nurse, what you said was pretty immature. Ultimately we have to live up to what we say.
Josephine, you’re the one saying that you KNOW that life begins AFTER conception. You’re the one saying that every pro-lifer who believes that life begins at conception is wrong. The burden of proof is on YOU.
And you’re also the one saying that your word on this is better than anyone else’s here, since you happen to be a high and mighty medical student. You trying to play the victim at this point is rather ridiculous.
Oliver what’s the big deal if Josephine is a couple years older than her boyfriend?
Josephine: “Oliver, stop assuming about my life. Because you have friends that are medics really doesn’t mean anything. Especially since everything is different with every single unit. So unless your friends are in my unit… ;)”
So I am wrong, and you have been deployed, and you have had to perform multiple life and death procedures in the field whilst deployed?
“Rae, is it really fair to insult med students, when I’ve said over and over my information is from a book, not from myself? I didn’t write anything I’m saying: neither did anyone else.”
Do you have the source of your book? And I think it’s fair- med students (and PRE-med students) tend to think they know more than they do and ought to be knocked down a peg or two.
“I didn’t say I “know more” than anyone. So why the hostility? No reason. I’m a nurse, myself, Rae. Don’t forget that.”
Your references to nurses never “acting like a doctor” are rather derogatory (my perception). You could very well be self-loathing. And no- you’re not a “nurse”. You’re an LPN. RNs are nurses.
“I got an immature comment, and shot it back. It never originally came out of MY fingers.”
Why not show maturity yourself and restrain from firing back at “immature” comments?
Asitis: “Oliver what’s the big deal if Josephine is a couple years older than her boyfriend?”
Well it depends on what state she lives in I suppose, and it depends on if her current sexual practices
extended to those times, but she would possibly have been commiting a form of rape. As it turns out, I was correct in assuming that she was young, and therefore has had little experience and can get off her high horse about “totally knowing for real” how the human body works.
“Why not show maturity yourself and restrain from firing back at “immature” comments?”
Yeah, that’s my job. For the record, I don’t really object to immature comments (obviously). What I object to in this case is Josephine dodging the issue, that is, her claim that life begins after conception and using her personal status to bolster her argument, or lack thereof. Throwing insults at nurses as if a nurse is some kind of lowly moron who couldn’t possibly know when life begins is nothing but elitism, and an attempt to change the subject so that the discussion devolves into what it’s devolving into.
I made it up? I’ve been to Belize two summers in a row. And did the work of a doctor. I work at a nurse at a hospital. Constantly since I was seventeen.
I’d say that way more medical experience than you. ;) I work as a nurse at the hospital and doctors office. You do know an lpn stands for licensed practical nurse, right?
I actually just keep saying it comes from my textbook and a professor, John. Never said my word was better, but I’m not going to say it’s worse because they’re not “my words”. They’re from a medical text book, and a doctor.
I’m not older than my boyfriend, I’m actually younger. :)
“So I am wrong, and you have been deployed, and you have had to perform multiple life and death procedures in the field whilst deployed?”
Yup. That’s what doctors do. They perform life and death procedures constantly!! That’s all they do, walk around and do life and death procedures. No, Oliver. We call a doctor if there’s something we can’t handle. The big difference between doctors and medics is that doctors diagnose. I can help a broken bone. I can stitch. I can stop bleeding.
LPNs are nurses. Licensed practical nurses. RNs are registered nurses. I work as a NURSE in a hospital. Your perception is wrong. I’m not going to insult myself.
I’m twenty years old and being attacked by people twice my age. Should we be talking about maturity, really?
Okay, thats great that you have been to Belize. Were you “in the field” though? Not unless there is a war in Belize that I havent heard of.
What Id like to see you do is answer the questions.
What exactly do you do when you work in the Doctor’s office that gives you so much knowledge of the human body? What did or do you do in hospitals, and how long of stints have you had actually in the hospital? What work in Belize “counts” as doctor’s work, anyways? And just so you know, almost anyone can get work as a “doctor” in a lot of foreign countries. It doesnt mean you have much knowledge of embryology…which actually brings me to a further point. Assuming that all of your hardened life experiences are true, how does anything youve done constitute a proper stance on the maturation of embryonic cells? Did you work as a reproductive endocrinologist too, conveniently?
Moreover, where is your source for your point? If you dont remember the exact name or page of the book, try to google it, so I can take a look. If I have to, Ill buy the sucker to prove a point.
John, I keep saying everything I’ve said comes from a book. If you’ve done your OWN research, good for you. I certaintly haven’t. If you haven’t done your own research, you’re doing the exact same thing I am. It’s not like I claimed I’ve studied this. I said, “I read it in my book.”
Noooo really Josephine? I thought LPN stood for Lonely Pathetic Nymphomaniacs.
Duh. LPNs have less training than RNs and are not qualified to do all of the tasks as an RN.
Did you do a PSEO program in order to become an LPN before college?
Well it depends on what state she lives in I suppose, and it depends on if her current sexual practices extended to those times, but she would possibly have been commiting a form of rape. As it turns out, I was correct in assuming that she was young, and therefore has had little experience and can get off her high horse about “totally knowing for real” how the human body works.
Posted by: Oliver at February 12, 2009 9:39 PM
You’re making a bunch of assumptions there Oliver about Josephine’s current and past sexual practices. Can we also assume that you “raped” the lovely Lauren?
And Josephine may be “young” but she seems to be very mature and responsible for her age and has experienced a lot. I think you are being unfair and it makes one wonder why……..
John L, don’t take this too seriously, but you totally remind me of a religious Dr. Cox…
Josephine: ” I keep saying everything I’ve said comes from a book…”
And you also keep not mentioning the source for this book either.
Already given the name and publisher in the other thread. You can go back through and look it up yourself. I’m not going to do work for you.
You can also contact the head of the biology department here at school. :) His number is on the U of I webpage.
Do you know what “in the field” means? It doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with war, I’ll start out by saying that. It’s our training that we do IN THE FIELD. If anything goes wrong, the medics are the doctors. If there’s something we aren’t legally able to do, ,we have to call doctors in. I’ve worked in a hospital since I was seventeen. Not stints. I transferred from my hospital in Chicago to a hospital here.
“And just so you know, almost anyone can get work as a “doctor” in a lot of foreign countries. ”
Uhm, yeah, except I was with the US military. Not quite the same.
Oliver, are you freaking kidding me? Because I’ve said over and over “it’s from a book”. Get over yourself. I never said *I* know more. I said “its’ from a book” and “it’s from a doctor”.
You’re making a bunch of assumptions there Asitis: “Oliver about Josephine’s current and past sexual practices. Can we also assume that you “raped” the lovely Lauren?”
Not in Texas, although it would be interesting to investigate. I was merely pointing out the unliklihood of Josephine’s age being much older than 21, and therefore her unliklihood of having worked her medic responsiblity into a “field operation.”
Asitis: “And Josephine may be “young” but she seems to be very mature and responsible for her age and has experienced a lot. I think you are being unfair and it makes one wonder why……..”
How do you see her as mature? Besides, that would be my personal problem. I really dont have issues with immaturity so much as I have issues with internet bravado and poor logic, of which Josephine exudes both in great quantity.
“Did you do a PSEO program in order to become an LPN before college?”
I got to do it through the military before I was even out of high school. If you want to talk about being mature, don’t say an LPN isn’t a nurse. If they all left hospitals, you’d be very screwed.
“And you also keep not mentioning the source for this book either.”
Yes. I have.
This is absurd. Of course the blastocyst is alive. If the blastocyst were not alive, and this could be clearly demonstrated, then there would be no debate over human embryonic stem cell research. Even supporters of hESCR don’t claim that the blastocyst is not a living thing; just that it’s “not yet” human, or “not fully” human, or some other asinine, illogical argument.
TSTL, you have no sources. You’re not doing research, and I’m done with the discussion with you.
Posted by: Josephine at February 12, 2009 9:13 PM
why Josephine? How incredibly stubborn and immature to stamp your feet and insist that life doesn’t begin first at fusion and then at the zygote stage. for pete’s sake, at least make up your mind.
I wonder WHY it is sooo hugely important to you to brow beat everyone on this thread that a zygote is not living? The notion is completely preposterous. Its preposterous because it flies inthe face of reason and of scientific fact. And yes you are quite right. The discussion is done becuase one of us (and it isn’t me) just can’t seem to understand simple biology.
Oliver, you exude the quality of someone who is bitter after watching young, promising people take tests to go on to successful careers.
Also, YOU’RE NOT IN THE MILITARY. You apparently don’t even know what “in the field” means, if you think it has ANYTHING to do with war.
That’s funny Oliver…. I thought you owned the rights to “bravado and poor logic”!
C’mon Oliver. Think back. What had you done by the time you were 21 aside from getting someone pregnant maybe? Okay, so maybe that’s uncalled for. But you are being unfair to Josephine.
Josephine: “Already given the name and publisher in the other thread. You can go back through and look it up yourself. I’m not going to do work for you.
You can also contact the head of the biology department here at school. :) His number is on the U of I webpage.”
Hmm, is there any particular reason you are doing your best to obscure the material? You could simply post the book and the line of text you are using as your support in the face of several other texts, which have been quoted and sourced. Instead, I have to go to “the other thread?” What other thread Josephine?
Also, I will surely call the head of the bio director tomorrow. Itll be interesting to see if he responds.
Josephine: “Do you know what “in the field” means? It doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with war, I’ll start out by saying that. It’s our training that we do IN THE FIELD. If anything goes wrong, the medics are the doctors. If there’s something we aren’t legally able to do, ,we have to call doctors in. I’ve worked in a hospital since I was seventeen. Not stints. I transferred from my hospital in Chicago to a hospital here.”
You arent answering the questions. WHAT did you do in those hospitals? How many times have you had to use your medic skills “in the field” and what did you do exactly? Anyone else noticing how evasive she is here? What does it mean exactly Josephine? Does it mean that nothing ever happened, or does it mean that you only dressed bandages and sprained ankles? And regardless, even if you performed open heart surgery, how would it give you any leg up in a debate over the maturation of the embryo?
Josephine: “Oliver, are you freaking kidding me? Because I’ve said over and over “it’s from a book”. Get over yourself. I never said *I* know more. I said “its’ from a book” and “it’s from a doctor”. ”
Dont try to back down from your statements. You openly lauded yourself for your experience, claiming that YOU would KNOW because of it. Why dont you just admit you have no idea, and that you were just talking trash when you claimed to have so much more experience and knowledge than us lesser folk?
Patricia, you don’t have sources. You’re literally pulling “facts” from no where.
You don’t understand biology because you can make things up. We all can make things up.
“I got to do it through the military before I was even out of high school. If you want to talk about being mature, don’t say an LPN isn’t a nurse. If they all left hospitals, you’d be very screwed.”
I never had any intention of appearing mature. ^_^ I have a cousin who is an LPN and has gone back to school part-time in order to become an RN.
Were you 18 well before you started your senior year? I though you weren’t allowed to enlist until you were 18?
Asitis :”That’s funny Oliver…. I thought you owned the rights to “bravado and poor logic”!”
Hmmm, thats a good zinger, too bad it has no basis.
Asitis: “C’mon Oliver. Think back. What had you done by the time you were 21 aside from getting someone pregnant maybe? Okay, so maybe that’s uncalled for. But you are being unfair to Josephine. ”
First of all, if you thought it was uncalled for, why did you type it?
Second of all, I hadnt done much, but I didnt claim that I had done things of which I hadnt, unlike our friend Josephine here.
I’m not going to pull up my book because I already did once. If you’re interested, you can go to the thread we were talking about earlier. That has this EXACT SAME conversation.
Did I say I was a surgeon? You are really just being crazy. I do the duties of a nurse at the hospital. I do the duties of a medic when I’m with the guard. I never said I know more than ANYONE. I said I know what I know from SCHOOL. I said “my professor” and “my textbook” and the REASON I have that textbook and that professor is because I am a pre-med student. I WOULDN’T be studying any of this if I weren’t. You are really so dense.
“You openly lauded yourself for your experience, claiming that YOU would KNOW because of it.”
Where, Oliver? :)
Josephine: “Oliver, you exude the quality of someone who is bitter after watching young, promising people take tests to go on to successful careers.”
Oh come on, make up your own insults, dont borrow them from other people. Thats just sad.
Josephine: “Also, YOU’RE NOT IN THE MILITARY. You apparently don’t even know what “in the field” means, if you think it has ANYTHING to do with war.”
The wheels are coming off the wagon it seems…
Care you to explain what amazing medical feats you acomplished whilst “in the field?” that nurses would be bewildered and blown away by?
You can enlist at 17.
I was done with AIT before I was 18.
“Asitis :”That’s funny Oliver…. I thought you owned the rights to “bravado and poor logic”!”
Hmmm, thats a good zinger, too bad it has no basis. ”
NO BASIS? Are you kidding!
“Second of all, I hadnt done much, but I didnt claim that I had done things of which I hadnt, unlike our friend Josephine here.”
Such as? Fact: I’m a nurse. Fact: I’m a medic for the National Guard. Fact: I’m a pre-med student.
Something I’m missing here?
“Care you to explain what amazing medical feats you acomplished whilst “in the field?” that nurses would be bewildered and blown away by?”
Stop putting words in my mouth, Oliver. ;)
Josephine: “Your right, as a pre-med student, a medic, and from a family of doctors, I don’t understand the human body. *EYE ROLL*. ”
There. The sarcasm, noted by the “eye roll,” is pretty clear of course.
Come on Josephine, swallow your pride and repost the source. It will make people stop harping on you.
I hadnt done much, but I didnt claim that I had done things of which I hadnt, unlike our friend Josephine here.
Posted by: Oliver at February 12, 2009 10:10 PM
Sorry, but so far I haven’t actually seen any evidence to suggest that Josephine isn’t being honest. Face it Oliver, some people are real achievers.
I already have. I most certaintly won’t “swallow my pride”. He wants to go buy the book, he can at least go through another thread to find it.
:)
“Josephine: “Your right, as a pre-med student, a medic, and from a family of doctors, I don’t understand the human body. *EYE ROLL*. ”
There. The sarcasm, noted by the “eye roll,” is pretty clear of course.”
What does that have to do with anything? I was told I didn’t understand the human body. You know how many anatomy courses it takes to get through all that? I have a perfect understand of the human body. Way to prove nothing?
Josephine: “I’m not going to pull up my book because I already did once. If you’re interested, you can go to the thread we were talking about earlier. That has this EXACT SAME conversation. ”
What magical thread are you talking about, and what is your motive for making me search for a post of which I have no search criteria other than “Josephine?”
I think its because you forgot the name of the book. Considering that you forgot the name of the book, it makes me wonder if you even remember what the book said.
Josephine: “Did I say I was a surgeon? You are really just being crazy. I do the duties of a nurse at the hospital. I do the duties of a medic when I’m with the guard.”
What are those duties Josephine? What did you personally do that makes you so knowledgeable about the human body?
Josephine: “I never said I know more than ANYONE. I said I know what I know from SCHOOL. I said “my professor” and “my textbook” and the REASON I have that textbook and that professor is because I am a pre-med student. I WOULDN’T be studying any of this if I weren’t. You are really so dense.”
No, you said that you do work that normal nurses cant even do. I want to know what that work was exactly, not hypothetically you would do in a combat situation without any other doctors, but what you have actually done that elevates you above the average nurse, or for that matter, above the average person.
Josephine: “Oliver, are you freaking kidding me? Because I’ve said over and over “it’s from a book”. Get over yourself. I never said *I* know more. I said “its’ from a book” and “it’s from a doctor”. “
Josephine: my source is from October 2008 and it is a published source. However, I shouldn’t HAVE to provide you with the name of the source. It should be apparent to you that the biology I presented is exactly what Lauren has presented – it conflicts in no way with any of her information. However, you don’t like what you have read becuase it PROVES you to be wrong. In fact, my information makes the case in a logical manner for the fused gamete cells to be a living entity that undertakes the direction of it’s own development – in a manner consistent with that of human beings.
Oh and by the way, my source is young, intelligent and has degrees from the University of California, Berkeley. Or maybe that’s not a good enough school for you.
You know what I see Josephine – a young woman who doesn’t want to learn the truth. And that bothers me terribly. You have a fine mind and good intent but your heart has been hijacked by ideology.
Josephine, even I don’t know what this other thread is and haven’t seen a link. If nothing else, link us to the thread so we can go look at it.
If nothing else, I’d be interested to see what the director tells Oliver tomorrow :P
Asitis: “C’mon Oliver. Think back. What had you done by the time you were 21 aside from getting someone pregnant maybe? Okay, so maybe that’s uncalled for. But you are being unfair to Josephine. ”
First of all, if you thought it was uncalled for, why did you type it?
Posted by: Oliver at February 12, 2009 10:10 PM
I said “maybe that’s uncalled for”. I can’t recall how old you were when Lauren got pregnant.
By your own admission, you hadn’t done much. Josephine certainly has. She deserves kudos for that. But no, you’d rather assume she’s lying because no way could anyone surpass your achievements.
Heres another source Josephine. Gray’s Anatomy, and not the TV show.
“[The male pronucleus] gradually approaches the female pronucleus, and ultimately the two pronuclei come into contact and fuse to form a new nucleus, containing both male and female elements, and named the segmentation or cleavage nucleus, and the whole cell thus modified is called the blastosphere. It seems this normally occurs in the Fallopian tube, but it is possible that it sometimes takes place before the ovum has entered the tube…”
The cells begins dividing before implantation Josephine.
Josephine, be very suspect when toostunned refuses to divulge her source. Just in case you haven’t caught on yet.
Asitis: “By your own admission, you hadn’t done much. Josephine certainly has. She deserves kudos for that. But no, you’d rather assume she’s lying because no way could anyone surpass your achievements.”
Right, I cant let anyone surpass my achievements!
There is evidence to point out that she is lying. She has to claim what she has done that separates her from normal nurses.
“What are those duties Josephine? What did you personally do that makes you so knowledgeable about the human body?”
Uhm… became an lpn and a medic? You do realize I had to study and get through school for that?
PIP, the book title is in the thread when Jill went on vacation. I only didn’t answer Oliver, because frankly, he was being a patronizing butt head.
TSTL, why in the world would you expect me to post a source if NEITHER you or Lauren had? She had a graph that came from a random blogger. You do realize that, right? Just saying “it’s from something published” doesn’t make sense. Especially because you think certain people with certain degrees that had been bought are real doctors..
“No, you said that you do work that normal nurses cant even do. I want to know what that work was exactly, not hypothetically you would do in a combat situation without any other doctors, but what you have actually done that elevates you above the average nurse, or for that matter, above the average person.”
Are you kidding? What have I done that makes me know more about human biology than an average person? Aside from going to school specifically to study it?? I’ve set a broke leg, I’ve administered drugs that nurses CAN’T, I’ve cauterized a wound, I’ve actually set a broken arm.. I’ve done a LOT of things.
Asitis: “Sorry, but so far I haven’t actually seen any evidence to suggest that Josephine isn’t being honest. Face it Oliver, some people are real achievers.”
Hm, I take it that you are saying that I am not a real achiever? Id take my family over Josephine’s “accomplishments” of which she has yet to explain any day, thank you very much.
Josephine: “She had a graph that came from a random blogger.”
You can make BS up all day long if you want, it seems to fit your MO, but Lauren scanned the source from her textbook, and posted it on her personal blog, all the while cited the information as she went. You need to watch what you say.
“There is evidence to point out that she is lying. ”
Like, Oliver? Are you God!?? Is that what I’m supposed to understand?? Because I could say there’s evidence to say you’re a 70 year old pedophile who poses as Lauren and yourself. That’s not true, but I could say it because you haven’t proven otherwise. Is that what I’m to understand?!??
Bobby, my textbook is the Textbook of Medical Physiology. The newest edition. It CLEARLY STATES that a fertilized egg does not divide until after cell activation. A fertilized egg itself is just that. A fertilized egg. When you have a seed for a plant, it’s not a plant. It has the potential to become a plant.
Posted by: Josephine at February 3, 2009 10:47 AM
I am having a very hard time finding a textbook on amazon called “Textbook of Medical Physiology” published by Arnold Publishers. Are there names on the inside cover? Just the first one in alphabetical order maybe?
Posted by: Bobby Bambino at February 4, 2009 6:59 AM
This is Josephine’s text. It maybe helpful to further understanding her position if someone can find a copy.
Oliver, how old are you? If you want to have a fair comparison, wait until Josephine is your age and then see what she has accomplished.
But for now, all we have is the 21 year old Josephine vs. the 21 year old Oliver. Seems to me she’s the achiever there. Even you find it hard to believe she has done all she has. And man, it bugs you.
“You can make BS up all day long if you want, it seems to fit your MO, but Lauren scanned the source from her textbook, and posted it on her personal blog, all the while cited the information as she went. You need to watch what you say.”
She never said that. :)
Josephine: “Uhm… became an lpn and a medic? You do realize I had to study and get through school for that? ”
Okay, great, you went so school and set some broken legs and arms and adminstered nonstandard drugs. Finally you answer the question. Now how does that tell you anything special about how the human body operates at the cellular level?
Okay this is what she said:
“Bobby, my textbook is the Textbook of Medical Physiology” new edition.
OK, Josephine, if that’s the way you want to play it. Guess what, I just happened to have my old Biology text on my bookshelf where I could easily find it for just such a situation. How about that?
Here are some quotes from “Biology: Concepts & Connections” Second Edition, by Campbell, Mitchell & Reece, Copyright 1997
“An animal is made up of many thousands, millions, and trillions of cells organized into complex tissues and organs. The transformation to this multicellular state from a zygote is truly phenomenal. Order and precision are required at every step, and they are clearly displayed in the first two major phases of embryonic development: cleavage and gastrulation.”
-Chapter 27, “Reproduction and Embryonic Development”, Section 10, Page 536
“Cleavage is a rapid succession of cell divisions that produces a ball of cells – a multicellular embryo – from the zygote. DNA replication, mitosis, and cytokinesis occur rapidly, but gene transcription is virtually shut down, and few new proteins are synthesized. As a result, the embryo of most animals does not grow larger during cleavage. Nutrients stored in the original egg cell nourish the dividing cells, and the successive cell divisions partition the zygote into many smaller cells.”
-Chapter 27, “Reproduction and Embryonic Development”, Section 10, Page 536
“By the sixth of seventh day after conception, the embryo has reached the uterus, and cleavage has produced about 100 cells. The embryo is now a hollow ball of cells called a blastocyst.”
-Chapter 27, “Reproduction and Embryonic Development”, Section 16, Page 542
“The blastocyst starts to implant in the uterus about a week after conception.”
-Chapter 27, “Reproduction and Embryonic Development”, Section 16, Page 542
Oh snap, someone beat me to it! :)
Josephine: “She never said that. :)”
Actually she did.
“The chart was scanned from the text Fundamentals of Anatomy and Physiology, 7th edition by Frederic H. Martini. It is a complete text used in both undergraduate and graduate level anatomy classes.
I entered the text from the chart in my above post.
Posted by: lauren at February 12, 2009 4:10 PM”
By the way, do you really need me to scroll through 2000+ posts to find the name of your book? You must really not want me to find that information! Im interested in what your director tells me. Do you think he will remember your name?
“Now how does that tell you anything special about how the human body operates at the cellular level?”
When was that the question? I believe the question you asked was what I did that nurses can’t do?
Asitis, unfortunately: Apparently since I don’t want kids, I’ll be a failure forever.
Oliver, how old are you? If you want to have a fair comparison, wait until Josephine is your age and then see what she has accomplished.
But for now, all we have is the 21 year old Josephine vs. the 21 year old Oliver. Seems to me she’s the achiever there. Even you find it hard to believe she has done all she has. And man, it bugs you.
And here’s my book on Amazon, just to prove it exists:
Biology: Concepts & Connections 2nd Edition
John, that’s great.
Oliver, nope. He doesn’t even teach a class. He just sets the curriculum. Ask anything you want. :)
Asitis, I don’t give a damn what Josephine or anyone else has accomplished. I care about the fact that a blastocyst is a living being. I just posted quotes from my Biology text which tell about the zygote undergoing mitosis and cytokinesis to form the blastocyst. If that’s not a sign of life, then the word “life” has no meaning.
Asitis, unfortunately: Apparently since I don’t want kids, I’ll be a failure forever.
Posted by: Josephine at February 12, 2009 10:42 PM
Josephine, I know you are saying that with sarcasm, but in truth some people actually will think that of you. Heck I wouldn’t put it past some people here to come right out and say it. But it’s not right. Having a family is very fulfilling (although there are days…..!!!!) but raising great kids is not the only way to achieve success and happiness and to give back. Heck, saving lives, finding cures/better techniques…. these are big things.
And who knows, you might change your mind about kids. Maybe not. Either way it’s all good. Do what’s right for you.
Like I said earlier…. oh the places you will go!
Who is the author Josephine? It is Arthur Guyton and John Hall- that is the only one that matches the title on the Amazon.
Asitis, I don’t give a damn what Josephine or anyone else has accomplished. I care about the fact that a blastocyst is a living being.
Posted by: John Lewandowski at February 12, 2009 10:48 PM
Great, so we’re opposites. (but I’m not attracted to you)
“John, that’s great.”
That’s all you have to say? I have a Biology text in my lap right now which shoots to hell what you’ve been saying for the past several hours, and all you can say is “that’s great”?
Talk about *EYE ROLL*
Oh but it’s not Arnolds publishing or whatever, it is Saunders..
“Great, so we’re opposites. (but I’m not attracted to you)”
Alleluia.
PIP, mine is Arnold and it’s by about 60 authors.
“”John, that’s great.”
That’s all you have to say? I have a Biology text in my lap right now which shoots to hell what you’ve been saying for the past several hours, and all you can say is “that’s great”?”
That’s because neither of us are doing anything except citing textbooks that we didn’t write. They’re just textbooks we happen to believe. You want my textbook to fight yours?
I have in my bookshelf a text book that shoots to hell what you’re book says. Do you understand that it doesn’t matter? I don’t agree with your textbook. You don’t agree with mine. I don’t really care. It’s great for your textbook that you agree with it. You’re lucky you didn’t have mine with my professors, or you’d probably get kicked out of the class for arguing.
@John: Was that your bio book for college?
I found the original quote after a while…I looked your book up too. You claim that your book has no authors though, which I obviously need to ensure that I have the right book. If you dont know the authors, then at least who are the editors? I cant look the book up by publisher.
Regardless, you claimed this here.
“A fertilized egg doesn’t implant until activation.”
Your text claims
“After a successful fertilization, which takes place in the ampullary part of the fallopian tube, the embryo migrates through the tube into the uterine cavity. This migration takes six days. Along the way, the zygote divides several times”
This quote of yours has nothing to do with the issue of birth control.
The cell becomes fertilized, begins activation and starts to divide, in then later implants.
How does birth control affect this process other than to prevent the fertilized, activated, segmenting and therefore living human from implanting?
Too bad Josephine can’t just type the sentence or two from her alleged text which states that a blastocyst is not alive. It’s just so much easier to make Oliver scour Amazon in a vain attempt to find a book which probably doesn’t exist, only to have him purchase a similar but different Biology text, quote from it proving that blastocysts are alive, and then have Josephine say, “that’s great.”
Josephine, the only book remotely similar that I could pull up by that publisher was “Medical Physiology and Biochemistry” by David F. Horrobin.
“You’re lucky you didn’t have mine with my professors, or you’d probably get kicked out of the class for arguing.”
I sincerely doubt that, unless your professors were that insecure in their opinions.
Josephine: “That’s because neither of us are doing anything except citing textbooks that we didn’t write.”
Im thinking that in your case you are citing a textbook that you didnt read.
Rae, that is my text from my first year Biology class.
OMG John… I had you pegged as being way older! (or are/were you a “mature student”?). Sorry bud, you are too young for me afterall.
@John: Thanks! I miss 1st year bio…
*sighs with fond memories of cladograms and flatworm ‘penis fencing’*
Oliver, in your chat with the head of department tomorrow, why don’t you ask him what textbook is required for Dr. Miller’s pre-med biology class. :) I didn’t say my book had no authors. I said it has about 60. Quite a difference.
“”You’re lucky you didn’t have mine with my professors, or you’d probably get kicked out of the class for arguing.”
I sincerely doubt that, unless your professors were that insecure in their opinions.”
You’re not allowed to argue with the textbooks unless you personally do research to disprove something. Since I don’t think John has done this, he probably wouldn’t last.
You’re right Oliver – there’s nothing in my text either about the chemicals in birth control somehow preventing an already fertilized cell from undergoing blastulation. I guess the authors of my text left that out by mistake.
I think there has been a huge confusion going on honestly.
Let me get this straight…Im pretty sure we are actually on the same page on a few things. Here is the process for embryonic development in normal person speak.
1) Sperm meets egg and they merge together to become a fertilized egg.
2)Once fertilized, the egg becomes activated, the pronuclei align and then shortly starts to slowly segment on its way down the Fallopian tubes.
3)The now segmenting blastocyst attempts implantation.
I think we can all agree that this is what is occuring. It is well backed up by multiple text books, including what Josephine has posted of hers. What seems to be the argument, is how exactly BC interferes in this process. BC does one of two things. It either prevents the ovum from ever developing, or it prevents to fertilized, activated and segmenting blastocyst, and therefore human from implanting. It seems that Josephine believes that BC stops the activation period. There is of course no evidence for this anywhere, not even in Josephines authorless and editorless book.
Josephine, even a book with 60 authors has 1 or 2 on the cover credits. You know like “Frederic H. Martini, et. al”
John :”Too bad Josephine can’t just type the sentence or two from her alleged text which states that a blastocyst is not alive. It’s just so much easier to make Oliver scour Amazon in a vain attempt to find a book which probably doesn’t exist, only to have him purchase a similar but different Biology text, quote from it proving that blastocysts are alive, and then have Josephine say, “that’s great.””
Those are my thoughts exactly. Why else would she be so weirdly evasive? She claimed earlier it was because I was being a “butt head.” So mature, dont you think Asitis?
I know you all think I’m a 60 year old, 300 pound guy with white hair (but not much) and crazed red eyes. Actually I’m 29 years old, 170 pounds, with turquoise eyes and brown hair at Blago-esque levels of thickness. And I’m actually quite agreeable in person; I only fly off the handle when I think someone is lying in order to support ghastly evil. Support evil if you want, but be honest about it… that’s all I ask.
My book has a publisher. I will post a picture tomorrow, if you’d like. The cover has the title and publisher. We’re staying at my sisters now. I can show you a picture of my book tomorrow. There are about 60 authors. Or, Oliver can just do what he said he’s doing and he can call my head of department, and here that this book was in fact the book we need for class. Not that hard to dial a phone.
Josephine: “Or, Oliver can just do what he said he’s doing and he can call my head of department, and here that this book was in fact the book we need for class. Not that hard to dial a phone. ”
Or you can just admit that nowhere in your book does it claim that BC stops cell activation. That is what I am asking him correct?
Josephine, can you help me find your book though? If you have it on you, there are always primary authors- if you could give me one, we can go from there.
You can ask him anything you want, Oliver. Anyone can, his office number is all over the internet. :)
Right, Oliver. BC can stop ovulation OR, supposedly, prevent implantation. I have never, ever before today heard the argument made that BC stops the blastulation of a fertilized ovum. That, to me, would seem to be biologically impossible.
I don’t have it on me, but I do believe there is a bio of it on my school site. I’ll go through the site.
What did you say your professor’s name was? Also, what was the name of the director in case I cant get your prof.
Josephine: “You can ask him anything you want, Oliver. Anyone can, his office number is all over the internet. :)”
Im trying to figure out what you believe your book states so that I can ask him of the validity of that. Why do you believe a zygote prior to implantation is not alive?
“I know you all think I’m a 60 year old, 300 pound guy with white hair (but not much) and crazed red eyes. Actually I’m 29 years old, 170 pounds, with turquoise eyes and brown hair at Blago-esque levels of thickness. And I’m actually quite agreeable in person; I only fly off the handle when I think someone is lying in order to support ghastly evil. Support evil if you want, but be honest about it… that’s all I ask.”
Lies. :-p
By the way Josephine, care to take back the comment about my wife? You said she posted a sourceless scan from “some” blogger. Care to take back that lie? You better or Asitis will be very disapointed (*cough* look the other way *cough*)
Hai guise!!
Just an interesting little side note about human reproduction that I ‘learned’ in psychology class the other day when we were discussing twin studies. After thinking about it, it made complete sense, but did you know that if you have an odd number of multiple babies- triplets, quintuplets, and so on, one of the fetuses died?
Uhm, if she were here I’d tell her I didn’t see that she posted that. Do I have anything to say to you? Nope!
Erin: “but did you know that if you have an odd number of multiple babies- triplets, quintuplets, and so on, one of the fetuses died?”
Tangentness aside, Im sure I follow that logic. Couldnt you have two fraternal twins, and have one of those twins divide into identical twins? I dont really know for sure, but it would seem logical.
Rae, I mean that in all seriousness. I only ever go nuts when I think someone is being dishonest in order to support something reprehensible. I got along fine with the pro-aborts on here who admitted that abortion kills a human life, after all.
Being pro-abortion in and of itself is something I find extremely unfortunate, but it doesn’t make me lose my mind. But making up crap in order to justify the position? That does.
Josephine: “Uhm, if she were here I’d tell her I didn’t see that she posted that. Do I have anything to say to you? Nope! ”
What makes you think that she isnt here? And I find it interesting that even when you are proven wrong, you fail to apologize or admit that you are wrong. You went out and said she did not source, when she did, why cant you admit that you made a mistake and apologize like a normal person?
Also, what is the name of your department head, I cant find it earlier in the thread and there are several biology departments.
Oliver, it’s only dealing with identical cases. Oops. I think I failed to make that clear.
Like I said, if she were the one I was typing to, I would. I say I make mistakes all the time. Look through all the other threads. I’m not going to apologize to her THROUGH you, because I have nothing to apologize to YOU for. I didn’t see she posted a source, and when SHE’S the one typing, I’ll say “Sorry. I didn’t see that you posted that!” but.. you’re not her.
Interesting John. Im sort of the same, except my issue is when the pro-choicers use flawed logic that is inconsistent with their other beliefs. I would actually have no problem with someone who did not respect ANY human life. For example, there is an episode of House where he expresses a very pro-choice point of view. Im fine with that because the character pretty much disdains human life in general. What gets me is when pro-choicers want to protect their own lives and the lives of certain humans, but threaten the lives of others, with no true justification.
Erin :”Oliver, it’s only dealing with identical cases. Oops. I think I failed to make that clear.”
That makes sense.
No John, you misunderstand me.
I mean the description of your appearance. That’s what you’re lying about.
*tongue firmly planted in cheek*
(I’m teasing you.)
Josephine :”Like I said, if she were the one I was typing to, I would. I say I make mistakes all the time. Look through all the other threads. I’m not going to apologize to her THROUGH you, because I have nothing to apologize to YOU for. I didn’t see she posted a source, and when SHE’S the one typing, I’ll say “Sorry. I didn’t see that you posted that!” but.. you’re not her. ”
Thats as close as I think she’ll get I guess.
Now what is the name of your department head. Also, because I want to get my story straight for the questioning…what do you think the action of BC accomplishes regarding the process of fertilization? Also, what is your timeline for fertilization, activation, segmentation and implantation? Finally, what is it about your book that you think runs so contrary to all the posts Lauren, TSTL and I have made and all the sources we have cited?
What the hell, I’m going to write what my current physiology book says on the subject (Human Physiology by Silverthorn)
“Once the egg is fertilized and becomes a zygote, it begins mitotic division as it slowly makes its way along the Fallopian tube to the uterus, where it will settle for the remainder of the gestation period. The dividing embryo takes four or five days to move through the Fallopian tube into the uterine cavity. Under the influence of progesterone, smooth muscle of the tube relaxes, and transport proceeds slowly. By the time the developing embryo reaches the uterus, it consists of a hollow ball of about 100 cells called a blastocyst…Implantation of the blastocyst into the uterine wall normally takes place 7 days after fertilization. The blastocyst secretes enzymes that allow it to invade the endometrium, like a parasite burrowing into its host. As it does so, the endometrial cells grow out around the blastocist until it is completely engulfed…”
Sounds pretty much what everyone else’s does.
“…like a parasite burrowing into its host…”
Hm thats a little loaded dont you think?
Anyways, I dont think thats the confusion actually PiP, weirdly enough. I think the confusion is that Josephine thinks that BC stops the activation period if an egg does get fertilized. This is simply not true. I need to know if she thinks this, or what she thinks.
“Hm thats a little loaded dont you think?”
Eh, they don’t describe the blastocyst as a parasite, they describe the method of implantation as such, and it’s a fair comparison. I admit though considering modern pro-choice rhetoric it can seem pretty loaded.
“Josephine thinks that BC stops the activation period if an egg does get fertilized”
Ohh. I thought she was saying that BC stops implantation and they are only activated at implantation or something?
Im not actually sure what she is saying actually. Her post earlier, when she quoted her text, supported the idea that activation occured prior to implantation, so assuming that she is a reasonable person, and thats assuming a lot come to find out, she believes the same thing we all believe. It seems that her conflict is that she believes that BC stops activation after fertilization, which she has provided nothing to support, her mysterious book included.
Mmmm….yeah. I guess we’ll just have to see what she or her faculty have to say.
I dont know what to ask the faculty, honestly. Also, I cant find where she posted the head’s name. Do you see it anywhere?
The U of I site? I don’t know which “I” it is, actually. There are a lot of “U of I”s..
No, who she said was her department head. She said it earlier in the post, but I couldnt find it on a couple of cursory glances. Maybe she never openly said his name…
I think she just said: “You can also contact the head of the biology department here at school. :) His number is on the U of I webpage.”
She goes to the University of Illinois.
Okay, for some reason I thought she actually said his name. Ill just contact (presumably) Dr. Kay. Of course, I need to know what it is exactly that Josephine believes based on her text. As it turns out, she herself supports that implantation happens after segmentation and activation. I dont really know what she is asking.
Sorry Oliver. I think we are all confused now!
Okay so Im off to bed after this. Here is what Josephine has said.
Other Poster: “Josephine claims egg activation does not occur if a woman is no hormonal birth control and thus the egg is unable to become fertilized. I have NEVER heard this claim before, and it is not listed as a functional mechanism on any birth control I’ve seen.”
Josephine in response: “Uhm, that’s because it’s not on a birth control handout. That would be weird. It’s in my biology books, and I’ve already cited a source.”
The important part is the “its in my biology books” and “Ive already cited a source.”
Her source that she cited did NOT support this idea for several reasons. Number one, her own source clearly puts fertilization prior to activation, so regardless of what the BC does, the cell is fertilized. In the above post it appears that she thinks her book says that fertilization occurs after activation.
Her own words from the notorious post:
Josephine: “but everything I look at makes it seem like a phase has recently been added so that it goes “fertilized egg” – “cell activation” (where everything we’re talking about takes place) – implantation. ”
Secondly, her source that she claimed earlier in this thread to support her BC notion never actually mentions BC. This is what she cited, (although without authors or editors its hard to say if she technically cited it or not.)
“The first cell division takes place with the mitotic spindle, which comes from the proximal centrosome of the spermatozoon. With the creation of two daughter cells the fertilization is complete.” –We were never trying to define when fertilization is. We were talking about eggs that were already fertilized.
“The zygote, the first cell of a new organism with an individual genome” Again. You can go to the dictionary and find out what a zygote is. In fact, I HONESTLY have no idea why you posted that stuff. It doesn’t prove anything one way or another..
Actually,
“After a successful fertilization, which takes place in the ampullary part of the fallopian tube, the embryo migrates through the tube into the uterine cavity. This migration takes six days. Along the way, the zygote divides several times, initially without increasing its volume because it is still enveloped by the pellucid zone. Daughter cells are engendered and one speaks now of the blastomere stage.”
Notice that nothing here points out how BC affects activation. So where does she get this idea? Who knows, maybe its one of those things that she just “feels” to be correct. Now you may say, “well I dont think Josephine meant that her source supported her idea about BC.” Sure there is speculation, but lets look back at her exact wording….
“Uhm, that’s because it’s not on a birth control handout. That would be weird. It’s in my biology books”
She clearly referenced the BC in response to how it affects activation, and claimed that it was in her biology books. Of course it isnt, because it is not what happens.
Now where did all the confusion come from exactly? I thought at first that maybe I misinterpreted what was happening myself and threw us into this tangent, but on closer inspection of the original thread you can already see that Josephine has no idea what she is trying to assert…
Bethany : “Josephine, it’s cells are already dividing BEFORE it is implanted…
…The cells of the zygote divide repeatedly as the zygote moves down the fallopian tube. The zygote enters the uterus in 3 to 5 days. In the uterus, the cells continue* to divide….”
Josephine: “That differs from what TSTL posted and what was in my textbook, Bethany.”
Seems odd, especially since that followed almost directly after Josephine pointed out in her own post that the cell begins activation and therefore segmentation (activation only last 30 seconds) prior to implantation.
She multiple times pointed out that fertilization occurs prior to activation and that activation occurs prior to segmentation and segmentation occurs prior to implantation, so what on earth is Josephine doing? I have no clue and I dont think she does either. I think she is arguing for the sake of being contrary to the pro-life posters, even if that ends up turning her into knots.
I think what I should ask the department head is how and why did they admit someone like Josephine into their school anyways.
As it stands I am going to ask him this question. “Is there a form of birth control known to have an effect on the activation of an already fertilized cell, and if not, how does birth control, in all its forms, alter the reproductive process.”
Wow, that was something else! I”m glad to see Rae and John L. teasing each other.
Oliver, I’m interested to hear what you learn. BTW, it’s UIUC; University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, not to be confused with University of Illinois at Chicago.
Also, my understanding of at least the original discussion was whether or not the zygote was a life. I was under the impression (at least in the older thread) that we were arguing that the zygote is a life. We argued that it is a life because it begins cell division within 24 hours, I believe. I think Josephine was arguing that cell division does not occur until implantation, having something to do with activation. I think all the pertinent discussion that was referred to was at this thread https://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2009/01/stanek_1_month.html#comments
So I too am quite curious to check out the text and all this stuff. I’m learning so much. Very good. God love y’all!
I’m not saying I wouldn’t have a baby and think for a minute I want to keep it. I just happen to be incredibly selfish, and so is my bf. We’d be terrible, TERRIBLE parents.. even if we were okay for the first couple weeks. :)
My birthcontrol is perfect for me. It’s very effective, I have NO side effects thus far(I can get bone density scans for free!) and that’s pretty much the only complaint from researchers of depo provera.
Posted by: Josephine at Feb 12, 2009 11:26 AM
Then you have come to terms with the fact that are actually conceiving and then aborting while on birth control? The last time we discussed this you were not even aware that the fertilized egg was dividing as it passed down the fallopian tube towards the uterus. I am guessing you now understand this but you ave decided that killing the human life you create with your bf does not matter that much to you. Is that why you describe you and your boyfried as “selfish”? So it you and your caring only for one another and the rest be damned.
Secondly,
“The estrogenic hormones are uniquely responsible for the growth and development of female sexual characteristics and reproduction in both humans and animals. In women, estrogen circulates in the bloodstream and binds to estrogen receptors on cells in targeted tissues, affecting not only the breast and uterus, but also the brain, bone, liver, heart and other tissues.” So it is ignnorant if bone density is the only part of your body that you think your BC is effecting.
John,
Thanks for posting that bit from “The Ball and the Cross.” I only needed the name Turnbull to know the citation. That book has one of my all-time favorite paragraphs:
“A great light like dawn came into Mr. Turnbull’s face. Behind his red hair and beard he turned deadly pale with pleasure. Here, after twenty lone years of useless toil, he had his reward. Someone was angry with the paper. He bounded to his feet like a boy; he saw a new youth opening before him. And as not unfrequently happens to middle-aged gentlemen when they see a new youth opening before them, he found himself in the presence of the police.”
Bobby,
If that is the case, she still contradicted herself repeatedly. In her own posts she admitted that activation occurs before implantation, and she even pointed out that the cell begins to divide on its way to implantation.
From Josephine’s book : “This migration takes six days. Along the way, the zygote divides several times”
Josephine: “ALONG THE WAY. That “along the way” refers to the egg activation period, TSTL. This is AFTER it’s just a “fertilized egg”.
It’s moving. That’s what. It’s moving to the place where it will be implanted.”
Bethany: “Josephine, it’s cells are already dividing BEFORE it is implanted.”
Josephine: “That differs from what TSTL posted and what was in my textbook, Bethany.”
I think Josephine may be schizophrenic.
By the way, thanks for the tip on the right school. I was looking at the Chicago school. I actually cant find the departmend head of Biology for the correct school on the website. Care to help me out Josephine?
Also, my understanding of at least the original discussion was whether or not the zygote was a life. I was under the impression (at least in the older thread) that we were arguing that the zygote is a life.
yes Bobby this was my understanding too, but apparently the parameters of the discussion keep changing! lol
That is why I posted the source I did because the scientist deals specifically with the question of “Can we know scientifically when life begins?” and her answer is yes.
And then she also deals with the question, “Is the zygote a new human individual or just a human cell?”
Of course these questions are important and we need to find an answer both from science and reason.
It is one thing to experiment on two human cells but quite another to experiment on a two-celled human being who is incapable of providing consent for that experiment! And this begs the question if it’s ok for two-cells, why not 8 cells or 25 or 320 or 2,450,000,000!??
Oliver: It’s frustrating to me because the paramters keep changing! And it seems to me that it does not matter how many text sources or how authoritative sources one pulls from academia – it is of no use. A sort of intellectual pig-headness exists.
So then I ask myself why is this so?
I believe it is so because when a person invests themselves in a certain lifestyle that is contrary to reason and to spiritual reality a certain disintegration sets in. Ideology must be preserved at all cost.
It’s kinda like the risks associated with abortion: we just can’t tell ourselves that this might be a bad procedure for women because the entire women’s rights movement has hung itself on this made up right. If this disappears what will happen to women’s rights and equality? We will all go back to (supposedly) using coathangers and having women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.
That would explain a lot of how Asitis, Jess, Josephine, etc act. They are so used to bucking logic to support their viewpoints that they have literally developed a system of operating outside of logic. The consequence? This crazy situation we are in right now. The weird part is that it really doesnt even have anything to do with Josephine refuted your sources with no basis. The weird part is that she herself claimed a fact, used her own source to back it up, and then refuted that fact 3 posts later.
That would explain a lot of how Asitis, Jess, Josephine, etc act. They are so used to bucking logic to support their viewpoints that they have literally developed a system of operating outside of logic.
Yah think so! lol
There is no logic involved in supporting abortion. It’s an untenable position IMO.
The weird part is that she herself claimed a fact, used her own source to back it up, and then refuted that fact 3 posts later.
yeah, well Josephine is a young pup and most young ‘uns haven’t been taught by our education system to reason very well these days. They are taught to self-acutalize and self-gratificate!
I think Josephine probably doesn’t even know what she’s arguing about anymore.
There have been a few people on here who have vociferously argued that at fertilization there is no life! None. Nyet. Nothing. I can’t think of anything more preposterous than that! ;-D
That would explain a lot of how Asitis, Jess, Josephine, etc act. They are so used to bucking logic to support their viewpoints that they have literally developed a system of operating outside of logic. The consequence? This crazy situation we are in right now. The weird part is that it really doesnt even have anything to do with Josephine refuted your sources with no basis. The weird part is that she herself claimed a fact, used her own source to back it up, and then refuted that fact 3 posts later.
Posted by: Oliver at February 13, 2009 10:13
I’m sorry, how am I bucking logic here Oliver?????
Asitis, you do it on a regular basis nearly everytime you post anything other than a personal attack.
Actually, to be technical, you buck logic when you make personal attacks as well. My bad.
Oliver, I couldn’t agree more about the need for critical thinking skills… my children attend a charter school that, thank heavens, DOES walk the children through the process of thinking rather than just regurgitating facts. And they have the children learning algebra in elementary school, in addition to computer programming, advanced sciences and both Spanish and Turkish. My older son is competing in the Mathcounts regional competition the end of this month, which is preparation in high school for him to compete in the International Math Olympiads. I am beyond pleased with the level of critical thinking skills that this school achieves with K-10th graders…
If you liked that one, here’s another: Did you hear about the doctor who committed suicide? He jumped from his ego to his IQ. (Some of my best friends are doctors, and every last one of them thought that was hilarious.) It’s right up there with my tshirt that reads: “Doctors save lives. Nurses save doctors.”
Josephine, yes, one can become an LPN at 17. You do know how limited the scope of practice of an LPN is, right? Which is why an LPN requires oversight at the hospital by an RN? In the hospital setting, an LPN must be overseen by a nurse, is not allowed, without an additional special certification, to give IV medications or fluids… in all things must operate with oversight from a registered nurse.
Having been an RN in a pediatric emergency department in an inner-city county hospital (I currently work more on the floor than in the ED, simply due to where staffing needs are highest) yes, I can guarantee you, that if I waited for the doctor to tell me when to begin life-saving treatment, I would very often have a dead patient. It is the job of the triage nurse to perform all assessments and determine in what order patients are seen by the physician and often requires that a team of NURSES begin work on the patient immediately while the physicians are notified and run out to join. I have to know what the physician is supposed to do so that if they make a mistake I recognize it (we’re all human in an emergency situation) and alert them to it… we work as a team. That is the foundation of ACLS, PALS or NRP.
In addition, those of my friends who were LPNs for a while before becoming RNs and went through the RN program with me (I became an LPN halfway through nursing school myself) were the first to admit that the level of thinking required to pass an LPN program and the level of thinking required to pass an RN program were light years apart. They were both very hard workers and admitted that the level of understanding of anatomy and physiology required for the RN program was far more intense than that required for the LPN program… which makes sense, as RNs stand on their own while LPNs require RN oversight.
In reference to your point at 10:01 that if all LPNs left the hospitals we’d be screwed, I highly doubt that. The hospital that I work at is requiring all LPNs to finish school as RNs within a certain time frame to maintain their employment and has not hired new LPNs for quite some time. Depending upon the locality, it is very, very difficult to get your foot in the door as a new LPN. I know that I have some excellent LPNs (within months of becoming RNs) that I work with, but I am under no illusion that we require them to get the job done. Most nights that I work, none of them are even there… honestly, an LPN has become little more than a glorified PCT. Aside from passing medications, there is little difference between the scope of practice of a PCT and that of an LPN. And in some states, PCTs can become certified as med techs.
Also, I’d love to know what drug you have administered that no nurse can administer? (Think carefully and remember there are such a thing as advanced practice nurses. In addition, nurses in ICU and ER settings are specially certified and trained to administer medications not normally given by a floor nurse. As far as it comes to LPNs, however, no big deal, there are many, many medications they are not allowed to administer…such as any narcotic.
And, even as a nurse, there is a great deal about embryology not covered in the coursework, which is why I have to take a separate embryology course next summer prior to starting my NP coursework.
Your children are very lucky Elisabeth, and they are probably going to be very well set when it comes to college apps, both undergrad and postgrad if they so choose to follow those paths.
Very interesting insight into nursing by the way…
I definitely picked up that Josephine was blowing hot air around. She sounds like the type of person to exagerate her experiences to make points. I imagine the broken arm she set was more something that she assisted on and not something she did on her own for example. Maybe not, but I definitely get the sense of bravado. Thanks for providing some insight.
Oh Oliver, how did you ever get to be such a way at age 24, thinking you the only one with a sense of logic and in possesssion of such insight into others’ lives? You like to believe that those whose arguments run counter to yours are illogical and those with more experience are blowing smoke. These things may make you feel better but it doesn’t make them true.
You’re too young to be so old.
Elisabeth that’s good to hear about yoru children’s charter school. We are very fortunate in our school district to have great public schools. I see improvements in teaching strategies over how things were when I was a kid (shortly before Yaz was a singing and long before it was a contraceptive!).
Asitis: “Oh Oliver, how did you ever get to be such a way at age 24, thinking you the only one with a sense of logic and in possesssion of such insight into others’ lives? You like to believe that those whose arguments run counter to yours are illogical and those with more experience are blowing smoke. These things may make you feel better but it doesn’t make them true.
You’re too young to be so old. ”
Hm, well it turns out that I was right about Josephine, so I guess I pegged her down pretty well. As far as being the “only” one who uses logic, that is far from the truth. SoMG was a great example of a pro-choicer who used logic. You are not. Dont assume that because I call you and your friend Josephine’s flawed logic out, that I think that everyone has flawed logic. You two are not accurate samplings of the entire population of the world, in case you couldnt piece that together.
Oliver, in truth I am a very logical person. But I’m not going to wait around for you to acknowledge that. And no, you didn’t peg Joosephine. She has done everything she has claimed to have done.
BTW Oliver your wife says you are grumpy because some colleges don’t teach students to think on their own and they’d never pass the exams without your help. well, aren’t you glad they don’t?
Posted by: asitis at February 13, 2009 6:00 PM
I consider the following to be facts unless anyone has anything to refute them:
1 – Birth control pills typically work by preventing ovulation.
2 – Birth control pills may fail to prevent ovulation, however, a possible secondary mechanism of action is that they prevent the implantation of a fertilized egg in the uterus. This would essentially be the same thing as a chemical abortion in that a chemical would be causing the embryo to be destroyed, but it is technically not an abortion since implantation has not yet happened.
3 – No one has ever claimed before yesterday, nor is there any evidence to support the argument, that the chemical in birth control somehow prevents a fertilized egg from undergoing blastulation. This doesn’t happen. A fertilized egg behaves in exactly the same way regardless of whether or not a woman is taking birth control. The only difference is that birth control may prevent the fertilized egg from implanting.
4 – If a blastula is not alive, then the processes of mitosis and cytokinesis do not indicate life. A dead or dormant cell does not undergo cell division. Therefore, a blastula is alive.
As usual, the argument is not “when does a new human life begin”, because that question has already been answered by science. Human life begins when the sperm combines with the egg. The real argument is, when do you believe that that human life has worth? Most pro-lifers say that the life always has worth. Josephine says that the life only has worth at some point after implantation. Pro-aborts say that the life only has worth after it is viable, or after it is separated from its mother.
Asitis: “Oliver, in truth I am a very logical person. But I’m not going to wait around for you to acknowledge that. And no, you didn’t peg Joosephine. She has done everything she has claimed to have done.”
You have yet to show it, and I think Elisabeth did a good job of poping Josephines ego bubble.
Asitis: “BTW Oliver your wife says you are grumpy because some colleges don’t teach students to think on their own and they’d never pass the exams without your help. well, aren’t you glad they don’t?”
Dont get me or her wrong. I dont believe that most standardized tests do a good job of measuring critical thinking either. They usually rely too much on psychological tricks, (IE saying “non-negative” instead of “postive or 0” etc.)
However, it IS frustrating to watch students struggle on the LSAT because they are not used to working with logic. I dont blame them for the most part, in the sense that they were probably never challenged in the first place. However, when some ARE challenged I do get frustrated when the person in question just refuses to use logic. That said, Id be much happier if colleges taught their students logic and all I had to do was to direct them to a few strategies and general structure of the tests.
You have yet to show it, and I think Elisabeth did a good job of poping Josephines ego bubble.
Right………………… Eileen might have had something to sday about Josephine’s view of nus=rses, but she did nothing to refute the many things Josephine has already achieved at 21 years.
Elisabeth pointed out that her experience as a LPN was actually not all that relevant to a discussion of embryology. She even point out that as an RN, she did not have enough of a leg to stand on in regards to embryology. She also debunked Josephines idea that her medic experience outweighed the experience of nurses.
Oliver you keep referring to things Josephine has done and how they relate to her level of understanding of embryology. That’s not my point. I couldn’t care less about that. My point has always been that she has achieved a heck of a lot for a 21 year old.
Asitis,
Who cares if she has achieved a lot or not? She was boasting that she had a special knowledge of the human body, and she didnt and doesnt. Sure, shes done a lot for her age, I dont give a crap.
Right on, Oliver. I wouldn’t care if Josephine were a female version of Doogie Howser. What matters here is that her claims about birth control preventing blastulation are nonsense. Everything else is an attempt to distract from the issue at hand. This is supposed to be a discussion about the effects of birth control, not about how wonderful Josephine is.
Sure, shes done a lot for her age, I dont give a crap.
Posted by: Oliver at February 13, 2009 8:56 PM
Oh but I think you do. I’ll leave it at that though. Good night!
What matters here is that her claims about birth control preventing blastulation are nonsense. Everything else is an attempt to distract from the issue at hand. This is supposed to be a discussion about the effects of birth control, not about how wonderful Josephine is.
Posted by: John Lewandowski at February 13, 2009 9:46 PM
Sorry John, I wasn’t attempting to distract from the issue of how the pill or the shot might affect implantation. That doesn’t matter to me.
Asitis, you are attempting to distract from the issue precisely because it doesn’t matter to you. You prefer to talk about the accomplishments of Josephine, which Oliver and I don’t care about. The entire purpose of this thread, as you can tell from the subject, is birth control. It’s not about Josephine. The only reason Josephine’s accomplishments are being talked about at all is that early on in the discussion she attempted to lord her credentials over our heads in an attempt to win the debate outright by making an appeal to her own authority. And then she proceeded to play coy about where she learned some ridiculous information which she either remembered wrong or just made up and tried to waste Oliver’s time with a wild goose chase.
Now, it’s not like I don’t ever go off-topic, but the off-topic discussion obviously shouldn’t take precedence over the matter at hand. The fact of the matter is that life begins at the point of fertilization. Any Biology text will tell you that. And an embryo is not rendered “not alive” by the chemicals found in birth control pills. That claim is downright bizarre.
Well said John.
Josephine,
it gets kinda ugly when you open yourself up and find there is more selfishness then love. I know this would hurt you because one of th things you boasted of was your generosity to others. May you believe that the truth is actually what is best for you, then the truth will be what guides your words and your feelings of selfishness will be turned into love.
Asitis, you are attempting to distract from the issue precisely because it doesn’t matter to you. You prefer to talk about the accomplishments of Josephine, which Oliver and I don’t care about. The entire purpose of this thread, as you can tell from the subject, is birth control. It’s not about Josephine.
Posted by: John Lewandowski at February 13, 2009 10:37 PM
On the contrary, I think Oliver does have a secondary issue with her accomplishments. It’s apparent in his comments. However, I can appreciate that it may not be apparent to you don’t care anyway.
Asitis, Oliver has no issue with the accomplishments of anyone. Jospehine overstated her expertise in an area where she was obviously NOT an expert and Oliver called her on it.
The only situation in which Josephine could play the “expert” card with some validity would be if she were a Reproductive Endocrinologist who reguarlly performed in vitro fertilization.
She’s not. She’s a college student who happens to be a medic and an lvn. That’s great, but it doesn’t mean she has any more evidence regarding fetal development than any of the other nurses or bio students on this board.
You seem intent on negating Oliver’s achievements and painting him with some bizzare jealous brush. That’s sad. You’ve insulted his family and implied that he has been a failure in life. It is especially ironic that you are doing this while accusing him of not appreciating another’s accomplishments.
On the contrary lauren, I have not implied Oliver is a failure at life. I have suggested that Lauren has achieved more than he had at 21, because it’s pretty fair to say she has achieved more than most people at 21. That does not mean everyone else is a failure. How have a I insulted his family?
Oh and for the record, I do not think you and Oliver are “failures” at life. I don’t recall the exact details of your story, but I think you had gained acceptance and a scholarship to a good school because of your intelligence and hard work. And then lost your scholarship because your pregnancy and subsequent family made it hard to fulfill the reqirement to live on campus, correct? But it seems to me that you and Oliver have managed quite well with the turn of events and should be admired for being able to raise a family, have jobs and continue your education all at the same time. Hardly failures by anyone’s standards Lauren! I am sorry you got that impression because it wasn’t intended.
Lauren, I hope you also understand that Oliver was very insulting to Josephine: suggesting she couldn’t even get into a decent school, would never pass the MCAT, would never be considered for a residency, hadn’t even achieved things she had….. he did attack her unfairly and it went beyond what she was saying about embryonic development.
Asitis: “Hardly failures by anyone’s standards Lauren! I am sorry you got that impression because it wasn’t intended.”
Right. Thats why you said “all you did was get a girl pregnant.”
Personally Id much rather have my family than an LPN. When its all said and done and I have my degrees and my family, I feel pretty confident that I will be able to look back and easily say that I accomplished much at 21. I have no secondary motives Asitis. I think Josephine is an idiot personally, and I misunderstood her statements that she got into NorthWestern Med school, and honestly doubted that was possible. In addition to that, she started fluffing herself up and revealed her ego, which sounded very fishy given all the details I gathered from her. I called her on it, and with the backing of Elisabeth, it turned out that I was right in that her experience was essentially meaningless in the debate.
Oh Oliver………….
Well in any case I am glad to hear you aren’t bitter and are quite content with your life. Have a Happy Valentine’s Day. Go give your wife a smooch.
Oliver, what did you prove about me? What were you right about? I have no idea.
“She was boasting that she had a special knowledge of the human body, and she didnt and doesnt.”
When did I say that, Oliver? When? I believe NONE of us have done our own research. Or am I wrong? I believe NO ONE here is an expert on embryology? They’re only going from what they READ??
I wish I could’ve got back to this sooner, but I had drill this weekend.
Oh, and my POINT about being an LPN and a Medic and that my dad is a doctor ISN’T that I KNOW more. It’s that I have ACCESS to more. I’m going to guess I have a LOT of textbooks and people around me that most people don’t have if they’re going to school for, say, business.
How do you not understand that? You’re so dense, Oliver. Get over yourself.
Oh, and don’t you dare say crap about how I got into school, Oliver. Northwestern is one of the top ranking universities in the whole country! Where did YOU go to school? Easy to judge, isn’t it? ;)
What drugs did you administer that no nurse can administer, Josephine?