Jivin J’s Life Links 4-02-09
by JivinJ
But, in the long run, can we not agree that an unwed couple’s decision not to bring a forth child into the world when they are having trouble feeding themselves and three children is no tragedy? It’s actually a fact-based, rational decision that in the end benefits the three children they already have and society as well….
The obvious problem with Erbe’s analysis is that she assumes the child about to be killed by abortion isn’t already in this world. If the child didn’t already exist, then there would be no reason to have an abortion.
The man walked in about 2:40 p.m. and asked an employee whether he could use the restroom, the Broward Sheriff’s Office said. The man then pulled out a gun and demanded money.
No patients were at the clinic, but four female employees were present. He told three of them to go to another area and ordered the fourth to empty the cash drawer.
What really seems to enrage NARAL and Planned Parenthood is when crisis pregnancy centers use ultra-sound devices, or other methods, to show women pictures of their fetuses. To say that this is a “scare tactic” would be like saying it is a “scare tactic” to show a man a picture of clogged arteries to try to get him to understand his health situation. Yes, it may scare him in a certain direction — or not — but it’s an informed decision.
If a woman is seven weeks pregnant and someone shows her this picture, what is wrong with that? How is that “scary”?
Women are not delicate little flowers who can’t handle information, despite what NARAL Pro Choice and Planned Parenthood tell us. They should have the option of having all the information presented to them before an abortion so they understand what they are doing.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
What enrages NARAL and Planned Parenthood about ultrasounds is that they show women THE TRUTH about the growing child inside of her womb. They are enraged that women see their child and choose LIFE.
Telling women that “it’s just cells” or “a piece of tissue” when they are up to 10 or 12 weeks along is a bunch of lies and they KNOW they are lying.
“The Miami Herald reports an armed robbery at an abortion clinic in FL:
The man walked in about 2:40 p.m. and asked an employee whether he could use the restroom, the Broward Sheriff’s Office said. The man then pulled out a gun and demanded money.
[Did the clinic have a ‘pay toilet?]
“No patients were at the clinic, but four female employees were present. He told three of them to go to another area and ordered the fourth to empty the cash drawer.”
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There is no honor among thieves.
yor bro ken
Here is an interesting summary of the tremendous damage Obama has already done to America. It’s all there in black and white and it’s frightening. After his first term America will look alot different.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/apr/09040114.html
Don’t worry, Carla- it’s futile to call them pro-choice when they do not support reproductive choices for men, do not support alternatives to abortion, and quickly say, “This is a difficult choice enough for them!” without mentioning a word about how there are is always a choice- churches will help them, crisis pregnancy centers will help them, there are organizations dedicated to helping them. Why do they call themselves by such an inaccurate term?
They can gladly show them lies about this or that- that’s not difficult to see- but they cannot give women any information regarding alternatives and general information to let them actually make an informed decision.
Somehow…this makes me terribly sad.
Angel, thanks for that link. I’m very impressed with Obama’s accomplishments listed there.
Hal,
I knew you were going to say that. I actually was going to type it before you did.
Thanks for the link!
I personally am so happy that Obama shut Guantanamo down. It was attrocious that so many were targeted not on any grounds that they were terrorists but because of their ethnic backgrounds and choice of careers; they were detained without trials, and that’s wrong in every way that one can think about the matter.
And, this might make me some enemies (but hopefully not), I’m glad that he signed laws that prevent hatred against homosexuals. They’re not evil; they aren’t out to destroy the home. And I personally don’t believe that homosexuality is a choice. Love one another.
However, I am horrified by his lack of care for the preborn. He has made no move to alleviate the situation for the poor, and, now that I think of it, he made no mention of the poor during his campaign, either. Do the impoverished not register on his radar of concern? He does not respect rights of doctors not to partake in a practice that has nothing to do with their fields (if they wished to perform abortions, then they should have become abortionists). He ignores so much and he couldn’t care less what happens to the preborn.
I approve of some of his measures…but others are purely sickening. This isn’t exactly change, Obama. We’ve been living under poverty and lack of rights for many (including the preborn) since…forever. Give us something to believe in, something to give us hope.
Hi Carla, sorry I’m so predictable. I’m working on being less antagonistic.
What enrages NARAL and Planned Parenthood about ultrasounds is that they show women THE TRUTH about the growing child inside of her womb. They are enraged that women see their child and choose LIFE.
Posted by: Carla at April 2, 2009 1:10 PM
-For me, its only about the agenda behind why the PL side wanted this legislation so bad. Like I said, there are already sonos provided at the clinic I volunteered at. I agree you should have the information (I would make it opt-in for the patient)…but it shouldn’t be used as a ploy to change someone’s mind. And that’s exactly what this is. It’s the motive that’s shady.
Explain to me why it is a PLOY to show women the truth about the child growing inside of her?? Explain to me the SHADY MOTIVE, Danielle.
things Obama has done FOR America so far. Wait to see after EIGHTyears! Oh baby yeh!
Posted by: angel at April 2, 2009 1:29 PM
Here is an interesting summary of the tremendous damage Obama has already done to America. It’s all there in black and white and it’s frightening. After his first term America will look alot different.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/apr/09040114.html
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Angel,
I regret to point out that America already looks a lot different.
The link you posted only covers the negative impact ‘Hope and Change’ has had in the social realms.
The negative impact of PBHO’s economic policies are turning the last bastion of captialism and liberty into a vast waste land of socialism and enforced political correctness and this will have additonal dire consequences for our nation.
yor bro ken
Explain to me why it is a PLOY to show women the truth about the child growing inside of her?? Explain to me the SHADY MOTIVE, Danielle.
Posted by: Carla at April 2, 2009 3:41 PM
-The intent is to in fact, change her mind. People may back off of the argument for the sake of providing information, but is that really the point, Carla? Isn’t the optimal result that this woman would choose not to abort?
My point is, if you want a sono, fine. If not, fine. It should be…her choice. Her choice through the entire process. I don’t like the manipulation behind it. If it were entirely objective in nature, fine, but it’s not. The reason there’s such passion for the legislation is that this would hopefully ‘change hearts and minds.’ Right? From my viewpoint, what you do after you receive an ultrasound is entirely your decision, makes no difference.
Prolifers haven’t learned to speak “choice” yet. If it’s done to provide the woman with information that might lead her to reject abortion, it’s “intimidation” and “coercion” and “scare tactics” and “manipulative” and “condescending”. If it’s done to ensure that a woman does NOT reject abortion, it’s “education” and “facts” and “information” and “counseling”.
It’s all in the aim of the person showing it. If your aim is a live baby, you’re evil. If the aim is a dead baby, you’re a champion of choice.
The intent is to show a woman the growing child inside of her and explain exactly what she is seeing. Hands, fingers, head, feet, toes, face. The most amazing part is that when women see it for themselves THEY CHOOSE LIFE FOR THEIR CHILD. It does change hearts and minds because it is TRUTH. Pretty hard to refute the truth of an ultrasound.
The manipulation you speak of happens everyday at the abortion clinic where a woman is told it is a clumps of cells.
You will totally understand what I am saying when you are pregnant and see an ultrasound of your growing baby, Danielle. Until then, carry on.
You said volunteered. As in past tense. Do you still volunteer?
The intent is to show a woman the growing child inside of her and explain exactly what she is seeing. Hands, fingers, head, feet, toes, face. The most amazing part is that when women see it for themselves THEY CHOOSE LIFE FOR THEIR CHILD. Posted by: Carla at April 2, 2009 5:23 PM
-Fine. If she chooses. And if she doesn’t, fine as well. It’s not our role to intervene in her choice, this is my point, and the objective of putting ultrasounds in front of her IS to intervene on her decision.
And, I’m on temp hiatus at the clinic, prob for the next few weeks until my schedule calms down. I’ve been traveling so much over weekends that I simply haven’t been available on a Saturday in weeks. Plus I’ve got a vacation coming up and – it keeps me from my volunteering, unfortunately.
Prior to having foot surgery last January, my doctor sat me down and informed me of all possible risks. That was part of my consultation. I made my choice after that, as it was an elective procedure.
What you call “intervening” is really called informed choice, Danielle. I think a woman should be absolutely sure about the baby she is thinking of killing. The role of PP is to finish the job.
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If anyone wants to check out Option Ultrasound(an amazing program)and the testimonies of women that have seen THE TRUTH for themselves and kept their babies…here ya go…
http://www.heartlink.org
Hey guys. I just got an email from the National Marrow Donor Program. I’ve been listed for a few years now, but never called upon to donate.
Anyways, I was just going to put the link on here (if that’s ok with you, Jill) so that if anyone is interested you can sign up too.
It usually costs 50ish dollars, but certain times during the year it’s free. They send you a cotton swab to get a buccal sample and then you send it back. Then, you just make sure you update them if you move, change phone numbers, get pregant, or get a disease that would disallow you to donate.
Anyways, I figured some of you guys might be interested since we talk a lot about adult stem cells. :)
Here’s the link: http://www.marrow.org
Oh, one more thing! If you are a member of a minority ethnicity, they need you’re help even more. People have the best chance of being matched within their own ethnic group, and most non-white ethnic groups are under-represented.
“Bonnie Erbe thinks that choosing an abortion because of the bad economy is a good decision, and something we should all agree on:
But in the long run, can we not agree that an unwed couple’s decision not to bring a fourth child into the world when they are having trouble feeding themselves and three children is no tragedy? It’s actually a fact-based, rational decision that in the end benefits the three children they already have and society as well.”
What faithless, dead advice. This is the justification of murder. Very twisted.
Well, here’s my defintion of abortion. See if Bonnie Eerbe’s thinking fits it to a tee:
“Abortion is an affront to the creative nature of God, it negates God as Creator,
Abortion denies the power of God to right a wrong, it negates God as Redeemer,
Abortion makes that which is good, the birth of human life, into that which is evil, the death of human life, and then calls it good, the very definition of blasphemy,
Abortion negates the resurrection power of God as it takes flesh that is alive in it’s earthly abode (the womb) and kills it, while God takes that flesh which is dead in it’s earthly abode (the grave) and desires to make it alive,
Abortion’s desire is to take that which was composed from the chaotic array of elemental molecules into a symphony of life infused with an eternal soul, and turn it back to the entropy of randomness, chaos, nothingness, uselessness.
Abortion is against all that is hopeful, all that requires faith for success; for it’s solution; annihilation, it’s goal; death, it’s dream; breaking God’s heart, it’s vision, Satan’s ultimate power.
Abortion is a counterfeit, for the clawprints of Satan are everywhere to be found in its performance;
Abortion disguises hate as love, bondage as freedom, choice as maturity, sin as righteousness, political correctness as wisdom,
Abortion pits men against women, mothers against their children, fathers against God, Yes, abortion is Satan’s feeble attempt at killing God Himself, for abortion is a metaphor for Satan; it is his coat of arms, his family crest, his logo, his brand, it belongs to him……for he laughs at its willing proponents as they craft their own self-destruction, mantled in self-deception.
Copyright 2007, 2008, 2009 by HisMan”
I don’t like the manipulation behind it. If it were entirely objective in nature, fine, but it’s not. The reason there’s such passion for the legislation is that this would hopefully ‘change hearts and minds.’ Right? From my viewpoint, what you do after you receive an ultrasound is entirely your decision, makes no difference.
Posted by: Danielle at April 2, 2009 4:33 PM
Neither side of the abortion debate can be truly objective, which is the case in regard to this legislation. Both sides want to persuade you to believe as they do. But I tend to be more trusting of the side that does this by offering truthful information as opposed to the side that seeks to limit access to information.
What you call “intervening” is really called informed choice, Danielle.
Posted by: Carla at April 2, 2009 5:57 PM
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BINGO, Carla. But the abortion industry hopes that women will not be so “informed” as to change their minds from choosing what will profit them the most.
Women should have a RIGHT TO KNOW and a RIGHT TO REFUSE to see the ultrasound if they so desire. At least give them the option, and give them information on the possible risks of the medical procedure before they make a choice that will affect their lives and the lives of other human beings.
When I got my ears double-pierced, I had to sign a sheet with legalese a mile long, regarding the risks and liabilities, and blah blah blah…for an EAR piercing job. Don’t we owe these women information before we go performing medical procedures on them? Shouldn’t they have a right to see and know what is really taking place BEFORE they choose?
Women need to understand abortion one hundred percent. Part of understanding that is understanding the affects that it has upon the fetus or unborn baby. If women do not have all of the information at their disposal, then they are not making an informed decision, regardless of how stressful that the information may be. And if, furthermore, this is so stressful to women, then the pro-choice ought to reconsider calling this a right and a choice. If women are only able to make this choice with their eyes closed and out of shear desperation, then that is the real issue, not, as some argue, whether or not sonograms are an undue burden upon women.
Silly us. There are no risks to abortion. Well, none that you will ever hear at an abortion mill.
Why do they not want women to see their unborn child? Are they afraid the woman might see the little head and arms and legs and say to themselves, “Wait a minute, that’s a baby! Its not tissue or a clump of cells!” Are they afraid a woman might CHOOSE to CHANGE their MIND?
Liz, of course!……. His Man, Thanks for putting up that post again. I hope you don’t mind if I run off a few copies of it. It’s one of the best things I’ve ever read in my life, pertaining to abortion!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Women should have a RIGHT TO KNOW and a RIGHT TO REFUSE to see the ultrasound if they so desire. At least give them the option, and give them information on the possible risks of the medical procedure before they make a choice that will affect their lives and the lives of other human beings.
Posted by: Kel at April 2, 2009 7:21 PM
-Which is what I said, Kel.
PS, you are made aware of the medical risk of having a medical procedure prior to…but what I think you’re after is some language that discusses the medical risk to the fetus…which is what, exactly, outside of death? That is what an abortion is.
Neither side of the abortion debate can be truly objective, which is the case in regard to this legislation. Both sides want to persuade you to believe as they do. But I tend to be more trusting of the side that does this by offering truthful information as opposed to the side that seeks to limit access to information.
Posted by: Janette at April 2, 2009 7:07 PM
-I agree with you Jeanette, objectivity is almost impossible with this issue, but i still want it. You can use to believe whichever side you choose. Honestly, with many beliefs, I think we all gravitate to the side that says what we already believed all along.
Oh, wow, I’ve been rereading some of my comments here and I realize that I sound like an absolute jerk when talking about Barack Obama. Sorry to sound so nasty. I didn’t mean to. I like Obama very much, just am nonplussed and irritated by some of the things that he puts into law without concerning over what it does to the preborn. That’s all. I mean, I get the feeling that he’s not too popular on this website, but I thought that I ought to appologize for injecting negativity into your days with my the-glass-is-half-empty sort of observations. And also because I feel guilty saying such attrocious things about any human.
I’m a bad person. :(. That’s random and pointless regarding the conversation at hand, but guilt was eating away at me for saying such (somewhat inaccurate and bitter) things. Ignore me… :(.
And, this might make me some enemies (but hopefully not), I’m glad that he signed laws that prevent hatred against homosexuals. They’re not evil; they aren’t out to destroy the home. And I personally don’t believe that homosexuality is a choice. Love one another.
Posted by: Vannah at April 2, 2009 2:52 PM
sorry Vannah but I can’t agree with you on this. The hate laws will go way beyond preventing hatred against homosexuals. They will unleash a form of tyranny seen only in communist countries.
Will a Mormon hall be able to refuse a gay couple who want to rent the hall for their “wedding” reception?
Will a minister be able to preach a sermon on why homosexuality is morally wrong?
Will a Catholic adoption agency be forced to place children with gay couples?
In other words, will freedom of religion be trumped by hate laws?
Vannah, you’re not a bad person! We all understand your frustration.
Alaska just signed a parental consent law. This is one small step for pro-lifers.
http://www.newsminer.com/news/2009/apr/02/alaska-house-approves-parental-consent-bill/
You guys might be able to dig up some better info on this than I.
Vannah, you’re not a bad person! We all understand your frustration.
Posted by: Lauren at April 2, 2009 9:33 PM
agreed! 100%!
Aw, thanks guys. You’re good people, too! And wonderful activists and allies in the fight to end bigotry against the preborn!
BS”D
Compare the story from Israel about Rina on the right side of this flyer with the example cited by Bonnie Erbe, trying to promote economic hardship as a justification for abortion:
http://www.friendsofefrat.org/efratfliersecB6low.pdf
“In the over 25,000 cases EFRAT has supported over the past 30 years, I have yet to meet the first mother who told me she is sorry to have her child alive and well in her home.”
– Dr. Eli Schussheim
Danielle, don’t you think a woman should know exactly what it is she’s killing before she consents to do so? Isn’t that part of being informed about abortion?
I mean, if a woman is about to have an abortion at, say, nine weeks, and she thinks that the baby inside her is nothing but an oddly shaped clump of cell, shouldn’t she be shown the truth* so she can truly make an INFORMED decision instead of one based upon misconceptions?
*my daughter at 9w6d, circa June 2004.
Lets just face the truth here: Abortion clinics DO NOT want women to see ultrasounds for fear of LOSING A SALE. They make MONEY from ABORTIONS. NOT from doing something that could easily cause them to LOSE a sale.
NO abortion clinic is going to WASTE TIME, MANPOWER, and MATERIALS by showing women what the baby looks like, for fear of loss of a sale. There’s NO MONEY in that.
Like everything else, MONEY is the bottom line here. NOT women’s physical or mental health. It’s the MONEY.
PERIOD.
Joanna,
Cute baby!
Women should have a RIGHT TO KNOW and a RIGHT TO REFUSE to see the ultrasound if they so desire. At least give them the option, and give them information on the possible risks of the medical procedure before they make a choice that will affect their lives and the lives of other human beings.
Posted by: Kel at April 2, 2009 7:21 PM
-Which is what I said, Kel.
PS, you are made aware of the medical risk of having a medical procedure prior to…but what I think you’re after is some language that discusses the medical risk to the fetus…which is what, exactly, outside of death? That is what an abortion is.
Posted by: Danielle at April 2, 2009 8:38 PM
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No, I never said that I was after “language that discusses the medical risk to the fetus.” I said that the woman has the right to know all that is about to take place. She has the right to see an ultrasound, hear a heartbeat, etc.
I think Vannah had a great point when she said, at 7:25: “If women are only able to make this choice with their eyes closed and out of shear desperation, then that is the real issue, not, as some argue, whether or not sonograms are an undue burden upon women.”
This is a life-altering decision for women. Anyone who says differently is fooling themselves. Women need to know exactly what they are choosing before they choose. There is no “undue burden” when they have the right to refuse to see and/or hear. Most women don’t even know all the facts about their own reproductive cycles, let alone what actually takes place during an abortion.
Ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance is not in the woman’s best interest (or the unborn child’s, obviously).
You seem to blindly believe, Danielle, that pro-lifers are the only ones guilty of having a “hidden agenda.” Is it not MORE suspect that the abortion industry, which profits from abortion, chooses NOT to inform women of the development of the fetus, etc.? Why hide it, if abortion is such a necessary “right” for women to have? It’s just not good medicine.
The woman also has a right to know that killing her own child will affect her. It will affect her for the rest of her life. NOTHING is said. NOTHING is talked about as far as risk. PP lies by omission. PP leads women to believe that it is not a baby and that abortion is risk-free. Simple, quick and painless, right? Killing your own child by abortion is NONE of those things.
Danielle, the reason you and your PP volunteers and abortionists assume there are NO RISKS to abortion is because 7-9 years later when reality hits a woman about what she has done…..she doesn’t usually return to the scene of the crime and ask her abortionist NOW WHAT SHOULD I DO??
You have no idea the amount of righteous anger that women who now know that abortion killed their child have. There is righteous anger over being lied to and deceived at a very vulnerable time!!! The women and men that have been hurt are coming forward. PP is nervous. They should be.
THE TRUTH ABOUT ABORTION WILL BE HEARD.
Hate crime legislation is thought crime legislation.
Should people be punished for illegal acts against homosexuals? Yes.
Their punishment should be the same as if they had committed the same act against anyone else.
But laws like this say that it is worse to tie someone to a fence post and beat them to death because they are a homosexual than because you just like doing it, or because they are white, or because they are straight, or because they stole your girl.
There aren’t good reasons to tie someone to a fence post and beat them to death.
The “hate crime legislation” is also misnamed. It doesn’t apply to someone whose hatred is more personal. It doesn’t even apply if the person hates other groups than homosexuals. If someone breaks my windows because I am pro-life, they won’t be charged with a hate crime. If they then go break someone else’s windows because that person is gay, that is a hate crime. So it is worse to break their windows than mine. How does that make sense?
I think that some people choose to be homosexual, but most do not. I am not sure if it is biological or environmental. The cause doesn’t matter, but the Bible does tell us that to act on homosexual desires is sinful, and I don’t think it should be endorsed by the government, but I also don’t think it should be forbidden.
But you can still be my friend, Vannah. :)
The economic reason for abortion is the ‘slippery slope’ that has been discussed since the beginning of killing your own children for your convenience.
What about the elderly in long term care at a nursing home? I sure hope her parents aren’t in an nursing home or getting any sort of help at home. What if our family can’t provide care, shelter, food and medical care for our elderly parents? Should they be killed?
What about physically or mentally challenged people? I sure hope you don’t have a car accident and need help, or can’t hold down a job, because now you are a drain on the resources. How much time would she suppose someone should have in re-hab to recover? Should your family or doctor determine this, or should the government?
This is exactly how Hitler started. He killed the infirmed and the mentally challanged and called them “Non-essential eaters”. They were using the scarce resources Germany needed to feed those in the war effort. Get rid of them and now more resources for the war effort. Then the problem became what to do with ALL those Jews. Again, non-essential. And you know the rest of the story.
Life is precious!! And we, as mere mortals, are not to take a life!! THOU SHALT NOT KILL.
But laws like this say that it is worse to tie someone to a fence post and beat them to death because they are a homosexual than because you just like doing it, or because they are white, or because they are straight, or because they stole your girl.
The hate crime laws, as I understand them, would punish the perpetrator equally if the motivation for beating were that the victim were straight (gender orientation) or white (race). The other 2 examples you gave would be punished but under different laws than hate crimes, since they’re not based solely on hurting someone because they’re part of a particular social group.
I don’t think the implication is that beatings motivated by other reasons are less serious; they’re just not covered under the same law.
Hate crimes carry a heftier punishment because they are intended to threaten and intimidate all members of the targeted group. There are really two crimes involved in the act: the violence toward the individual, and the hostile environment created for the surviving members of the group. The additional punishment is not for thought crime, but for sending a violently threatening message which itself is illegal.
I think Vannah had a great point when she said, at 7:25: “If women are only able to make this choice with their eyes closed and out of shear desperation, then that is the real issue, not, as some argue, whether or not sonograms are an undue burden upon women.”
-Agree that abortion should not be done with ‘eyes closed’ in denial. That’s not choice. Desperation, on the other hand, is subjective. A woman could see everything inside her and still decide this is not the time for pregnancy and motherhood…that may seem desperate to you. Last point on this – you’re assuming that these women don’t realize or accept that the fetus inside is growing arms, legs, etc. Consider that many, many women who choose abortion are already mothers. She knows what’s happening.
This is a life-altering decision for women. Anyone who says differently is fooling themselves.
-Agreed, and no one here (including myself) said it wasn’t.
Women need to know exactly what they are choosing before they choose. There is no “undue burden” when they have the right to refuse to see and/or hear.
-As long as their is the right to refuse, I have no problem with that.
Most women don’t even know all the facts about their own reproductive cycles, let alone what actually takes place during an abortion.
-That’s quite presumptuous…how do you know what a woman knows and understands about her own body?
You seem to blindly believe, Danielle, that pro-lifers are the only ones guilty of having a “hidden agenda.”
-No, I am not. If you had read my previous response to Jeanette you would find yourself corrected here.
Is it not MORE suspect that the abortion industry, which profits from abortion, chooses NOT to inform women of the development of the fetus, etc.? Why hide it, if abortion is such a necessary “right” for women to have? It’s just not good medicine.
-Its no more or less suspect than a side that pushes SO HARD to make sure that it DOES happen. You have an agenda, just like you claim the other side does as well.
Posted by: Kel at April 3, 2009 12:45 AM
Hmmm. Homosexuality, while I do believe that your right, YCW, can be caused by environment, it is largely not a choice- in my opinion. I agree with you, though, that sometimes it can be environmental, such as in the movie Boys Don’t Cry, which is based off of a true story.
I love your point (and your name), Lovethemboth. Abortion is the exception in a lot of similar circumstances. For economic reasons, it is illegal to kill a human being- it is only legal in capital punishment or self-defense. Why is abortion the exception to this rule?
I read, once, what Lincoln said about slavery (in this wonderful article that everyone ought to read if they haven’t: http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/95sep/abortion/abortion.htm) and how there were laws forbidding this and that regarding property, but those laws were not applied to the treatment of other “property.” So why should slaves be the exception to certain laws? And why should abortion?
We push so hard Danielle to save the lives of growing babies. We err on the side of life. We would also like to spare women the pain and grief and risks of killing their own by abortion. We seek justice for humans from conception to natural death.
You are assuming that women “already know” that the baby has arms and legs. The ones that honestly don’t know are the ones most vulnerable to the lies of “a bunch of cells.” They need prayer and loving people to show them the truth. They are what we consider “abortion vulnerable.” The others that already have children and know fetal development and know their baby is growing and kill them anyway….need prayer as well. They are considered “abortion minded.”
The woman also has a right to know that killing her own child will affect her.
-You put an ultrasound and front of her and say, ‘you’re killing your child.’ You mean to tell me there’s no agenda here??
PP leads women to believe that it is not a baby and that abortion is risk-free. Simple, quick and painless, right? Killing your own child by abortion is NONE of those things.
-Carla, we both know that not everyone believes that abortion is killing a baby. I’m not debating human life, fetus/embyo, etc. I’m talking about whether 100% of the population views them as babies. They do not. You do. There’s a big difference between thinking that you’re ending a human life and killing your children. That’s a difference in philosophy. And no one said it was painless. At least I didn’t.
Danielle, the reason you and your PP volunteers and abortionists assume there are NO RISKS to abortion is
-Stop right there. I’ve never said there were no risks.
7-9 years later when reality hits a woman about what she has done…..she doesn’t usually return to the scene of the crime and ask her abortionist NOW WHAT SHOULD I DO??
-Some will regret their decision, some will not. For those that do, you and others seem to have helped created a great network of support for them. But Carla….this is not every single woman’s experience. Many move on without emotional injury. Because they are able to do this, doesn’t mean they are somehow stunted psychologically. They are simply not you.
You have no idea the amount of righteous anger that women who now know that abortion killed their child have. There is righteous anger over being lied to and deceived at a very vulnerable time!!! The women and men that have been hurt are coming forward. PP is nervous. They should be. THE TRUTH ABOUT ABORTION WILL BE HEARD.
-I’ve acknowledged your journey in the past, and continue to. I’m sorry that this happened to you.
I will not stop fighting to ensure that women have ready access to abortion by licensed medical professionals without intimidation or interference.
Posted by: Carla at April 3, 2009 6:58 AM
Vannah, are you another Atlantic fan?
Danielle, I have a question.
Last point on this – you’re assuming that these women don’t realize or accept that the fetus inside is growing arms, legs, etc. Consider that many, many women who choose abortion are already mothers. She knows what’s happening.
Is it enough for you that “many” women are mothers and thus definitely know what’s happening? What percentage of women would need to be going into an abortion without full information, before you thought it was worth forcing the informed ones to sit through a re-hashing of stuff they already know? 1%? 5%?
If women know these things about abortion and are doing it anyway, how did they learn them? Did they find pictures on their own? If they have researched abortion to know exactly what it entails, and if doing the research to decide on abortion didn’t cause them mental pain or emotional anguish, then how is the ultrasound potentially, coercively painful? If a woman changes her mind after seeing an ultrasound, did she really want the abortion in the first place? Doesn’t that indicate that she would have not chosen abortion at all if her own research had been more thorough?
–That’s quite presumptuous…how do you know what a woman knows and understands about her own body?
*****************************************
Because I’ve counseled many, many women who don’t even seem to realize that you can’t just get pregnant “any old time.” They have no idea what their signs of ovulation are, when their last menstrual period was, etc. Believe me, there are a LOT of women who don’t have a CLUE.
I said: Is it not MORE suspect that the abortion industry, which profits from abortion, chooses NOT to inform women of the development of the fetus, etc.? Why hide it, if abortion is such a necessary “right” for women to have? It’s just not good medicine.
–Its no more or less suspect than a side that pushes SO HARD to make sure that it DOES happen. You have an agenda, just like you claim the other side does as well.
Posted by: Danielle at April 3, 2009 8:33 AM
*******************************************
Yes, Danielle, we have never tried to hide our agenda. Our agenda is the truth. It has never been hidden, and it certainly isn’t for monetary profit. It is to save the lives of women and their babies. However, does the fact that we have a life-saving agenda nullify the fact that a woman has a right to know what is actually about to take place?
And I take issue with your assumption that women who are already mothers “know” what’s happening and that their child has arms and legs, etc. Again, in my counseling of women who are already mothers, they are clueless. You show them photos of a 6 week embryo and they are stunned. You tell them what is already formed and currently forming and the response is typically, “Wow…”
What’s funny is that I had a grandmother and grandfather ask me the other day about my own pregnancy…the question was, at 20 weeks, “So…is everything already formed?” (I tried to restrain my shock. What do I say to that? Everything has been “formed” for months now!!)
I am telling you that many, many highly intelligent people do not know this information.
BTW, Alexandra, great points.
Yes Danielle,
We seriously put an ultrasound in front of a mommy and say, “You’re killing your child.” Word for word. Yep. An ultrasound speaks for itself. Life is happening, a baby is growing and moving. A heart is beating and there is no denying that.
The facts are the facts. It is what it is. Abortion stops a beating heart. To not believe that is to be deceived.
Thinking you are ending a human life and killing a child? A difference in philosophy? Wow. I am speechless on that one, babe.
I am not simply talking about REGRET, Danielle. Women experience grief, nightmares, suicidal thoughts and attempts, depression, drug and alcohol abuse, infertility, miscarriage, and premature labor. I am not just speaking for lil ol me here. I am part of a growing network of women hurt by abortion. Tis true.
Please don’t think I am attacking you either, Danielle. You do volunteer in the mills. You support the killing. You have to live with that. There are hundreds of thousands of people that read this blog and they need to read how abortion hurts women.
I will never stop fighting for justice for the unborn and standing here ready to help women and men who are struggling after their abortion experience. OH and helping women that are wondering what to do with an unexpected blessing.
I agree with Kel on that, Alexandra. Great points!! :)
Kel,
You are 20 weeks along already?? Wow. Your pregnancy is going
so fast for me. :)
If researchers were to discover a marker that identifies human beings who are genetically designed to be ‘homosexuals’, then homosexuals would become as rare as down syndrome children in todays society.
But you would find that the parents who chose to birth the ‘homosexual’ child would be the same kind of people who chose to birth the down syndrome child.
The common denominator amongst these parents would not be liberalism or humanism.
Care to venture a guess what the common denominator would be?
yor bro ken
Ha! Carla, it’s not so fast for me, of course. :D 21 weeks now!
Is it enough for you that “many” women are mothers and thus definitely know what’s happening? What percentage of women would need to be going into an abortion without full information, before you thought it was worth forcing the informed ones to sit through a re-hashing of stuff they already know? 1%? 5%?
-I thought we weren’t talking about ‘forcing’ anyone to sit through anything. Opt-in, remember?
If women know these things about abortion and are doing it anyway, how did they learn them? Did they find pictures on their own?
-Who knows? Why should you be concerned how she collected the information, as long as she has it?
If they have researched abortion to know exactly what it entails, and if doing the research to decide on abortion didn’t cause them mental pain or emotional anguish, then how is the ultrasound potentially, coercively painful?
-It may be for some and not others. Obviously, because many of the women who have sonos still go through with the procedure.
If a woman changes her mind after seeing an ultrasound, did she really want the abortion in the first place?
-Probably not. She was probably conflicted, or on the fence in the first place. Personally, I don’t think that’s the time to make such a life-changing decision. You need to be sure.
Doesn’t that indicate that she would have not chosen abortion at all if her own research had been more thorough?
-Perhaps. As I said above, if you’re already ‘teetering’ in one direction, sometimes all you need is that one last push to solidify your feelings. It could go either way.
We can continue to argue this until we’re blue in the face. The point is I don’t like anyone manipulating women into either making a choice she wouldn’t have on her own, or influencing her in one way or another. Period. Both sides are guilty.
All I’m requesting for is, realistic or not, pure objectivity, and backing up and letting a woman decide what she wants, whether its to carry on with an abortion, or change her mind and stay pregnant.
Posted by: Alexandra at April 3, 2009 8:47 AM
Danielle, a woman should be offered a view of the ultrasound. She can always say “no.” Turning the machine away from her is much more manipulative than allowing her the option to see her child.
An ultrasound is purely objective.
I prefer 4D myself. You can see that baby turning and moving and sucking her little thumb. Amazing!!
Me too, Carla. Of course, my last baby was a stinker and kept her face hid when we did the 4D ultrasound.
Lauren, that’s cute. Mine too:] She was a swimmer.
4D is sooooo coool!!!
Turning the machine away from her is much more manipulative than allowing her the option to see her child.
Posted by: Lauren at April 3, 2009 12:56 PM
-Who does that? In this instance, is it turned away at her request? Or, are you suggesting that women are physically prevented from seeing ultrasound pictures, even if they ask to see it?
LOL Carla, I skimmed your comment at first and were talking about ME being 20 weeks along! I was like, “…ummmmmm, is there something I should know?”
Danielle
-Who knows? Why should you be concerned how she collected the information, as long as she has it?
I don’t care how she collected it. I’m saying, what ways are there for a woman to know what a 7-week fetus looks like, except by seeing an image of it? Does it matter if she sees that image in the course of her own research, or in the doctor’s office?
-Probably not. She was probably conflicted, or on the fence in the first place. Personally, I don’t think that’s the time to make such a life-changing decision. You need to be sure.
I agree. I think that any woman who is conflicted going into an abortion should be encouraged not to make a decision yet.
We can continue to argue this until we’re blue in the face. The point is I don’t like anyone manipulating women into either making a choice she wouldn’t have on her own, or influencing her in one way or another. Period. Both sides are guilty.
I don’t like anyone manipulating women either. But what is the definition of making a choice “on your own?” Does that mean free of outside information, or free of outside opinions?
Like everything else, MONEY is the bottom line here. NOT women’s physical or mental health. It’s the MONEY.
Posted by: Mike at April 2, 2009 10:52 PM
-Mike, I don’t make a dime doing what I do. I don’t speak at events, I don’t write brochures or blogs, I don’t make any profit from being pro-choice and volunteering time at a clinic.
So please, enlighten me. Tell me exactly what my bottom line is?
I was so pleased to see Lauren’s post about bone marrow donation and just want to reiterate its importance. The testing is so simple (and often free- I got my sample taken for free at a blood drive, and I hear they’re usually free at other blood drives too!), just a cotton swab in the cheek. If you’re chosen to donate, it’s about as difficult as taking a day off work and being in a little pain for a day, but you’ve saved someone’s life! It’s such a wonderful thing to do for someone else, and I think many people are scared of the procedure. There are two different procedures (one involves a needle, but the one used more often just involves taking and returning your blood and sitting, awake, and pain free for a couple hours. Obviously it’s much more complicated than that but I’m trying to show that if you’re scared of needles you can still donate!). Visit http://www.marrow.org/HELP/Join_the_Donor_Registry/index.html to learn more!
I don’t like anyone manipulating women either. But what is the definition of making a choice “on your own?” Does that mean free of outside information, or free of outside opinions?
Posted by: Alexandra at April 3, 2009 1:17 PM
-Free of outside opinion. I don’t give my opinion unless its asked of me. I expect others to do the same where I’m concerned. Why can’t we give that kind of respect to others, especially women, when it comes to what’s happening in her own body?
I was so pleased to see Lauren’s post about bone marrow donation and just want to reiterate its importance.
Posted by: AM at April 3, 2009 1:34 PM
Thanks for the reminder, AM (and Lauren). There’s a little girl in my area with leukemia, I believe, who’s family has been looking for a donor via screening drives. I’ve felt compelled lately to be screened for her, but not enough to get off my butt and do it – but I will now.
Alexandra,
No I wasn’t saying you were 20 weeks along…I would be a couple days late for April Fool’s…:)
Danielle,
I know women who asked to see the ultrasound at the abortion clinic and were told no. The screen was already turned away from them the whole time.
I guess we can agree that that is WRONG?? I hope we can at least agree on that.
What I hear you saying is that women should see the ultrasound free from judgment and coercion and she be given time to really grasp what she is seeing. Also, time to think through ALL of her options. Which is awesome because that is what CPC’s do!!!
Not all abortion clinics have ultrasound although some use them in later term abortions to SEE the baby and grab her legs and arms and head and end her life. Also used to get the needle directly into the heart to stop her heart from beating.
-Free of outside opinion. I don’t give my opinion unless its asked of me. I expect others to do the same where I’m concerned. Why can’t we give that kind of respect to others, especially women, when it comes to what’s happening in her own body?
I do expect people to not share their opinions unless they are asked for. I certainly extend the same courtesy to others. My point is, do you think an ultrasound is information, or an opinion?
Lauren or AM, are there weight limits on bone marrow donation like there are with blood donation? I think you can’t give blood if you’re under 110 lbs, although it’s been a while since I ran my high school’s blood drive.
Danielle,
Thank you for considering marrow donation!! Awesome!!
Danielle, good for you. It hits home for me. My daughter is a leukemia survivor. Bone marrow donation saved her life.
Alexandra, I am also a blood donor and you are correct about that. My friend is only 100 pounds, and they told her she could not donate.
I do expect people to not share their opinions unless they are asked for. I certainly extend the same courtesy to others. My point is, do you think an ultrasound is information, or an opinion?
Posted by: Alexandra at April 3, 2009 1:42 PM
-The ultrasound in and of itself could be information. It’s the commentary and environment surrounding it that is concerning.
Danielle, good for you. It hits home for me. My daughter is a leukemia survivor. Bone marrow donation saved her life.
Posted by: Heather at April 3, 2009 1:48 PM
-That’s great to hear. I don’t know a lot about the process, but stories like that are encouraging. I hope the same happens for this little girl. Her parents have been really fortunate to have the resources to keep her name and face in the media, which keeps it top of mind. I really hope she finds a match.
Danielle, Thank you. My ex has a daughter from a prior relationship, and Missy was a match. Missy is now in the Marines. Bless her heart! I’m proud of her.
Missy was a match for my daughter, Melody…{to clarify]
I’m glad to hear that you guys are so interested in Marrow donation!
Also, you can domate your newborn’s cord blood if you don’t want to bank it for yourself. I didn’t do that because I didn’t really inform myself on how the process worked before my daughter was born. If we have any more children, it is definitely something we’ll try to do.
Here’s a link to the page that has all the medical guidelines to becoming a donor.
http://www.marrow.org/HELP/Join_the_Donor_Registry/Med_Guidelines_Join/index.html
And here’s the link to the weight guidelines.
http://www.marrow.org/HELP/Join_the_Donor_Registry/Med_Guidelines_Join/Donor_Weight_Guidelines/index.html
Lauren, thanks for the links!!
-The ultrasound in and of itself could be information. It’s the commentary and environment surrounding it that is concerning.
Okay. She’d be getting the ultrasound at the abortion clinic, right? Surrounded by people who are interested in protecting her right to choose and protecting her from emotional coercion, similar to yourself?
I know that you take your role as an escort seriously, and as someone who’s benefited from Planned Parenthood’s services in the past, I really appreciate that. My point is, do you not think that the other clinic employees or volunteers are just as interested in giving women information without manipulation as you are? I think that people who work at abortion clinics are probably unlikely to emotionally coerce patients into choosing to keep a pregnancy. It seems to me that the inside of an abortion clinic is one place where a woman is very safe from pro-life manipulation.
No problem. I’m glad to hear that marrow donation helped your daughter.
Thanks for that, Lauren! So there is no minimum weight, just a maximum?
Is there an age limit?
Alexandra asks:
My point is, do you think an ultrasound is information, or an opinion?
I think it is both. The ultrasound by itself gives information (albeit of a limited variety). However, telling a woman that she has an option to view an ultrasound conveys an opinion, i.e. that this information is or should be relevant to the woman’s decision. It also conveys that somehow the ultrasound is especially important — but why is the ultrasound somehow the key thing, as opposed to other information about fetal development?
I think the reason is not so much that ultrasounds convey hard information as that they are heavily coded with sentimental cultural meaning. Viewing the ultrasound has become a milestone in people’s pregnancies. Ultrasounds are becoming as common as baby picutres. In the movies, viewing the ultrasound is portrayed as an incredibly emotional moment.
I have no problem with that. I respect women for whom seeing the ultrasound matters. But I also think a woman could conclude that it is not relevant to her decision because she would abort anyway, or she could view an ultrasound and conclude that it doesn’t look like much.
As for the legislation itself, I am sort of “meh” as long as it is voluntary. Like Danielle, though, I am suspicious of the motivations behind the legislation. I wonder whether it is a “gotcha” law, another requirement aimed at trying to trip up abortion providers.
No problem, Alexandra. It says that “While the NMDP does not have a guideline table listing minimum weight criteria, volunteers who are extremely underweight for their height would need to be carefully evaluated. ”
Sounds like they take things on a case by case basis if you’re underweight. If your really short and weigh 95 pounds they’d probably be fine with you donating, but if you’re 6 feet and weigh 95 pounds, probably not. It would definitely be worth looking into. :)
oops, Never mind. I just clicked on age!
I believe you have to be between 18 and 60.
It seems to me that the inside of an abortion clinic is one place where a woman is very safe from pro-life manipulation.
Posted by: Alexandra at April 3, 2009 2:20 PM
-There’s the key word (manipulation). Free from PL manipulation in an abortion clinic? No doubt. Free to change your mind at any time, as well? No doubt.
Cool, thanks Lauren! I’m definitely not underweight. I just wasn’t sure if they did it on a height/weight ratio basis. When I wanted to donate blood I got all indignant about the weight thing because I was like, “PROPORTIONATELY I’m just as fine as any of these other people, thank you,” but once I looked into the reasons I understood it better. I just really have no idea how bone marrow stuff works.
I’ll definitely look into it now.
I’m glad I could help! I definitely encourage everyone to look into registering. It’s a big commitment, but it really can save a life.
Me too.
*to second what Alexandra said*
Ultrasounds are key because they are! They are objective, they are not manipulative in and of themselves. I have had more ultrasounds than I can count(7 pregnancies)I hardly recall the tech saying ANYTHING. I could watch all of the movements of my child for myself and hear the heartbeat and see with my own two eyes that tiny baby moving inside of me.
Abortion clinics do abortions. Abortions kill growing babies. Abortion clinics are interested in making sure that a woman’s child dies there. My child died at Meadowbrook in Minneapolis on Sept. 5th, 1990.
It took me forever to understand ultrasounds. It wasn’t until my aunt was pregnant that I finally saw a baby…and that was last year. Now I can see them, though. They’re so cute.
Sorry, Carla. :(. Aubrey is okay now, though. And you’re doing great work. God does everything for a reason, or at least I believe.
I will register.
Sweet Vannah,
Please know that I have been healing for almost 19 years now. :) I talk about Aubrey because people need to know that she is a child, not a choice. It honors my daughter’s very short life. God has been very gentle with me and yes, she waits for Momma in heaven.
Carla, I just went to the website for Meadowbrook. Looks like they’re still trying their hardest to keep women in the dark.
“If researchers were to discover a marker that identifies human beings who are genetically designed to be ‘homosexuals’, then homosexuals would become as rare as down syndrome children in todays society.”
I think that’s ridiculous. One of the reasons a woman might abort a Down Syndrome baby is the financial burden associated, or the fear of having to parent for their entire lives (not saying I agree, but I can imagine those would be reasons). Do homosexuals present those challenges to their parents? Can’t speak for anyone but myself, but I’d love to have a homosexual baby (which is kind of funny, thinking of babies acting on their orientation) just as much as I’d love a heterosexual one.
Maybe people you know would abort a baby just because it will someday be gay, and that truly scares me.
AM, people abort babies for having a cleft lip or a club foot. Do you really think they wouldn’t abort a baby for being gay?
People are horrible.
Lauren,
I can’t bring myself to go to their website. YET. :)
I have met 2 women in the last year that have also had abortions at Meadowbrook. I envision us standing outside praying and reaching out to those considering going in.
I definitely understand that, Carla. I don’t think I could go to the website either were I in your position. I really hope you guys can go back and pray there. Who knows, maybe you’ll be the catalyst for it closing its doors forever!
Baby steps, I guess. :)
I am looking into training to be a sidewalk counselor. Can you imagine me and my ladies standing outside with I Regret My Abortion signs?? I get chills.
Did your town do any 40 days for life activities? If they did, you can contact whoever was in charge of it to get info about sidewalk counselor training.
Prolife Action Ministries of MN. :)
I am going to the Closing Prayer Vigil in St. Paul on Sunday.
sidewalk counselor training
So, what kind of qualifications are required for serving in this role? Do they include anything more stringent than a pulse?
That’s great, Carla.
Thank you, Lauren!
Did anyone read the news about the rampage in New York? Fourteen people have been killed, and I think that we all ought to say a prayer for the injured, those taken hostage, and their families.
I know that that’s random, but I feel that it is a life-related story (obviously). They could use a lot of prayer and support right now.
I did see that, Vannah. I’ll definitely be praying for everyone involved.
Posted by: Danielle at April 3, 2009 1:24 PM
‘So please, enlighten me. Tell me exactly what my bottom line is?’
——————————————————
Danielle,
This is your ‘bottom line’ as I understand it:
Human embryo/fetuses, though human and alive, are not living human ‘beings’ till they are completely clear of their mother’s ‘bottom line’ and take their first breath of the same polluted air we all breathe.
It is an article of faith, not the product of reason or a logical conclusion.
Do you have any other articles of faith that define living humans as not possessing beingness?
yor bro ken
ps: You are aware that medical personel have introduced air into the uterus of pregnant women and the living human fetus breathed the air, just like he had breathed the amniotic fluid, and then he cryed inutero so louldly it was audible to the living human beings outside the womb.
Wow!
I knew there was power in the blood, but I never knew there was magic in the air.
Obama is over in France trashin America and sayin the US is arrogant.
Baby steps, I guess. :)
I am looking into training to be a sidewalk counselor. Can you imagine me and my ladies standing outside with I Regret My Abortion signs?? I get chills.
Posted by: Carla at April 3, 2009 4:32 PM
Carla the best sidewalk counsellors are those who have been there (as in had abortions) and those who have had children and are older moms. That’s my experience anyway.
All sidewalk counsellors need to be spiritual warriors because you will be attacked spiritually as you have never experienced before.
If and when you start this part of your ministry ask for prayer. I will be glad you pray for you both for your efforts and your protection.
God bless you.
Thank you, angel. :) God bless you!
Vannah it looks like you and I have a lot in common :)
I read an article about how people in the younger generations like ours (I assume you are relatively young?), even among religious, have a more human-rights based approach to homosexuality than those in the older generations. I know for a fact our Rainbow Alliance has grown exponentially over the years! Because people our age are becoming more open with discussing their homosexuality, we are also more aware of its personal nature than those who separate themselves from it, and we know how much of it is NOT a choice. I would highly recommend a movie to you, it’s called “For the Bible Tells Me So.” It is really really good, and it goes into both religious context and even some of the scientific studies about homosexuality in family lines and genetics. It’s not accusatory at all even, it’s sort of a ‘healing’ documentary.
Anyway check it out if you are so inclined :)
Thanks, Kate (Do you mind if I call you that to PrettyinPink? Kate is more typo-proof)! That sounds like a good topic to explore, and, tragically, one that is oft ignored in spiritual circles. I think that, if homosexuality is a sin- or if it was just a sentiment at the time that homosexuality was wrong?- then the judgment is left to God. Humans were given two commandments (well, besides the Ten Commandments): Love God and Love One Another. I certainly am not blameless. I cannot judge their sins when I don’t know what it’s like to be trapped, scared of God, because you are homosexual.
That sounds like a wonderful documentary. Thank you for the recommendation. You truly do care about humanity, I can tell. Sweet!
I agree totally! (and yes you can call me Kate!)
Definitely check out the documentary. They go into biblical context and how the text is often used to mean something it is not :) It is very powerful.
And thank you! I can tell you are extremely passionate as well, and I love to see that :)
It’s funny, but just about evryone who sidewalk counsels @ abortion clinics has had a hand in it before. Some of the women who come with us are from ‘Silent No More’…My Pastor encouraged his step daughter to have an abortion many years ago. He wasn’t a pastor then. I drove a friend to have an abortion, and I know a lot of women who have been effected emotionally. It only takes repenting.
My point. We were all on the wrong side of the ledger before. We all fall short. I look at it like this. I now serve the Lord to make up for the many years that I failed to do so.
To her credit, during a 20/20 television interview sixteen years later in 1988 with Barbara Walters, Jane Fonda apologized for her incredibly bad judgement in going to North Vietnam and allowing herself to be used as a propaganda vehicle.
“I would like to say something, not just to Vietnam veterans in New England, but to men who were in Vietnam, who I hurt, or whose pain I caused to deepen because of things that I said or did,” she began. “I was trying to help end the killing and the war, but there were times when I was thoughtless and careless about it and I’m . . . very sorry that I hurt them. And I want to apologize to them and their families.”
——————————————————————————–
I thought I’d post this because of war topic *above* Perhaps Jane really believed in her cause at the time, but time told her the truth.
*affected emotionally* above post.
Dr. to Oprah, Michael J. Fox: embryonic stem cells bad
Jivin J touched on this last week while I was on vacation, but I wanted to expound. Oprah spotlighted Parkinson’s Disease on her March 30 show, featuring her own doctor, Mehmet Oz, author of the best-selling YOU book series, and…