Aborting father confronts pro-life protesters
The following video, only posted on YouTube 3 days ago, has already garnered over 300k views. It was made by aborting father Aaron Gouveia. While his wife was inside a Brookline, MA, mill getting an abortion, he took his cell phone outside to confront pro-life protesters…
Gouveia explained at GoodMenProject.com the reason for his wife’s abortion:
After extensive testing at a renowned Boston hospital 3 weeks earlier, we were told our baby had Sirenomelia. Otherwise known as Mermaid Syndrome, it’s a rare (one in every 100,000 pregnancies) congenital deformity in which the legs are fused together. Worse than that, our baby had no bladder or kidneys. Our doctors told us there was zero chance for survival.
I cannot imagine the grief parents experience after receiving an adverse diagnosis like that, but the solution is never to kill their baby. While I have met many women who regretted killing their fatally ill babies, I have never met a mother who regretted carrying her dying child until natural delivery, even if her baby was born dead.
Furthermore, abortion hurts women. Forcibly dilating the cervix and entering multiple surgical instruments into the uterus to cut the baby apart and scrape the inside of the uterus carries multiple risks, including an incompetent cervix and miscarriage or premature delivery of the next wanted baby.
There’s also the increased risk of breast cancer from abortions due to increased exposure to estrogen and decreased maturation of breast cells.
Of course there are the adverse psychological consequences of abortion. Gouveia and his wife may receive an emotional bump from all the pro-abort support now, but after the publicity has died away, they will be left with the cold hard fact that they killed their handicapped baby.
I do wonder if the pro-lifers could have handled the situation better, although the 2 women were obviously unprepared to handle an angry, confrontational, potentially volatile man.
That said, I didn’t think they responded badly, even though Tracy Clark-Forey at Salon accused “the Christian protesters [of] decidedly un-Christ-like behavior.” Didn’t see any of that. I think they were simply unnerved.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
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I agree that the pro-lifers could have done a better job of conversing with the man. He was very angry, but perhaps one of them could have put down her sign for a bit and talked to him calmly and lovingly about alternatives, such as a perinatal hospice, which is a more life-affirming option for both his wife and their baby.
How many incorrect statements can we identify in this post?
I cannot imagine the grief parents experience after receiving an adverse diagnosis like that, but the solution is never to kill their baby.
Wrong. Every doctor I know would recommend a D&E over a dangerous miscarriage at home or the ER. It is far safer to have a D&E than to have some nurse or fellow perforate the uterus in a crowded Emergency Room at 3 in the morning.
Furthermore, abortion hurts women.
Wrong again. See above.
There’s also the increased risk of breast cancer from abortions due to increased exposure to estrogen and decreased maturation of breast cells.
Not only is this incorrect, it is a fear mongering lie. Let the peer reviewed studies and actual doctors judge. Not armchair activists at home.
Of course there are the adverse psychological consequences of abortion.
Again, a lie. Most women feel relief after a termination. It is difficult to make the choice, but northing is more painful than the days leading up to an including a D&E to terminate a fatally deformed pregnancy.
Mr. Gouveia hit the nail on the head. On the most difficult day of a woman’s life, when she urgently needs this medical procedure, the last thing she needs is some stranger telling her that she is killing her ‘baby.’ You don’t know the circumstances. You don’t understand the reasons. And most of all, you don’t understand the medicine.
Since you don’t understand, please respect the privacy of these patients, any of whom could have been or will be your friends and relatives.
You should really find another cause – a real human rights cause. Yelling at patients and doctors reveals just how heartless and evil the Antis are.
(*sigh*) The “autumn of the trolls”, we may call this, when we look back at it…
(There *must* be a troll nest around here, somewhere…)
Were I in the position of this family, I do not know what I would do. I am very pro-life and typically shy away from doctors and ‘medical professionals’. Once this choice has been made, I am surprised the procedure would not be done in a hospital, like a D&C would be. Why were they at this clinic? That seems odd to me. If it were doctors and/or insurance requiring it be done in such a place how in-sensitive and shameful. The loss of their baby is bad enough, no matter how or when it came about.
He says he doesn’t want his wife to deliver a dead baby which would happen if they wait any longer. Does anyone else see the irony in that statement?
He is so misguided and I feel truly sorry for his misfortune, compounded now that he will never know his child.
Dhalgren, I AM a doctor, a scientist who spent fifteen years in graduate training, including post-doctoral training. I’m educated in epidemiology and have read the extensive body of literature on the abortion/breast cancer link. The “lie” is the one by Dr. Louise Brinton and her pro-abort panel in 2003 where they simply dismissed 50 years of research. Brinton just published another paper in 2009 where she finds a 40% increased risk of BC in women who’ve had abortions and discusses abortion and oral contraceptives as known risk factors in that paper.
You are the one who is tragically uninformed, blinded to the truth by your ardent desire to see that society continues to slaughter babies.
This mother could have been monitored closely, as women are when they love their babies through very difficult pregnancies. So your fatuous argument falls flat.
As for most women feeling relief after an abortion, talk to women such as Carla who will tell you of recovery rooms filled with women weeping and too shocked to speak about their feelings. This father and his wife made a decision to kill their child before nature did the deed. These women were right to call him on that. And contrary to your diatribe, theis woman didn’t desperately need the abortion. she desperately wanted it.
Here was a couple without enough courage or love in their hearts to welcome a child and love it for however long it might live. It wasn’t perfect, so it needed to die. No use hanging on to a baby that they would not be keeping for long. That’s the evil of genetic counseling and abortion.
Abortion hurts women.
True.
It hurt me.
Paladin,
I will try limit my troll responses to one per troll. :)
There is always trouble in life, but where you turn for that trouble is what makes the difference. If you turn to God and seek solace, the road will still be bumpy and sometimes horrific, but you will be held, the whole time receiving comfort and understanding about the awfulness of this world.
On the other hand if you turn toward medical solutions for your problems, you get cut snip, slash, and a maybe a pain pill, and then a pat on the back saying, “Now your problem is fixed, see ya wouldn’t wanna be ya!”
I’m so sorry this family had noone in their life to help them before they made it to this awful place to do this awful thing.
After reading Mr. Gouveia’s story, I find it ironic that he and his wife were going to name their baby “Alexandra,” because “Alexandra’s House” is the name of a fabulous perinatal hospice located in Kansas City. Alexandra’s House offers free medical care to families dealing with such devastating diagnoses. Check out their website: http://alexandrashouse.org/
The doctor was simply following the “Cost Effectiveness” guideline as mandated by Obama Care. Not really, but it is coming. At some point, it won’t be a “choice.” It will be mandated because no other “care option” will be allowed.
Time to repeal Obama care and return dignity to life.
If it is not repealed and Hillary wins in 2012, euthanasia and “assisted murder” will be legalized at “treatment option” for disabilities or low survival rate illness.
For parents who face a poor diagnosis they are certainly not alone!! Reaching out to others who decided AGAINST “terminating the pregnancy” would offer a world of support and understanding.
http://www.benotafraid.net
There is no need to be angry at the message or the messenger when it comes to what science is bearing out regarding the link between abortion and breast cancer. It’s a fact. People will continue to make up their own minds, as they do currently. What do you lose by science proving the link?
I agree that the Lifers did a rotten job of receiving this father. He was hurt and angry and “talking to the hand” does nothing to help anyone. Embarrassing. Disgraceful. They showed *zero* compassion for him as a person, and his situation. The assumption we Lifers make all too often is that abortion is an easy, painless decision. We *know* that’s not the case for everyone. People anguish and ache.
We must never lose sight of people over the victory of the cause. This is a huge wake-up call to remember compassion – in all things. Thou shall not kill, either body, mind or soul.
Peace. +
Hi Dhalgren.
Jill wrote: I cannot imagine the grief parents experience after receiving an adverse diagnosis like that, but the solution is never to kill their baby.
You replied: Wrong. Every doctor I know would recommend a D&E over a dangerous miscarriage at home or the ER. It is far safer to have a D&E than to have some nurse or fellow perforate the uterus in a crowded Emergency Room at 3 in the morning.
This is a great example of a category error. Jill made a moral statement when she said a certain action was wrong. You replied by saying that “all doctors would recommend” such a procedure, which doesn’t at all address the moral concern that Jill was putting forward which is that it is never okay to kill an innocent human being as a means or an end. However, if indeed you are saying that all the doctors you know would recommend the action, therefore it is moral, then here we have another example of (sorry Hal) moral relativism where morals and right actions are determined by the majority of experts in a field wholly disjoint from their own.
“On the most difficult day of a woman’s life, when she urgently needs this medical procedure, the last thing she needs is some stranger telling her that she is killing her ‘baby.’”
I apologize that the protesters did not use the proper medical and scientific terminology. I hate when that happens because, as we see here, pro-choicers completely ignore teh issue of whether or not the unborn is a human being and instead focus on the choice of teh words used. the entire pro-choice movement is built on a solid foundation of semantics and anytime any pro-lifer dares to call the fetus/embryo a baby or child, calls a D & X “partial birth abortion”, or uses the phrase “pro-abortion”, pro-choicers are ALL over that! Kill all the unborn human beings you want, but don’t you DARE use improper terminology because THAT is what we will call you out on!
” You don’t know the circumstances. You don’t understand the reasons.”
So these make a difference when it comes to killing an innocent human being? What other situations are there when you can directly and wilfully kill an innocnet human being as a means or an end?
“And most of all, you don’t understand the medicine.”
Again, another category error. What medicine do we need to understand to realize that abortion is not the unjust taking of an innocent human life?
“Since you don’t understand, please respect the privacy of these patients, any of whom could have been or will be your friends and relatives.”
I never support teh killing of an innocent human being whether it was my wife or daughters who were in this situation (because, as you know, I hate and don’t care about women). This appeal to emotion does not work on those who base their morality on reason rather than emotion or “medicine.”
“You should really find another cause – a real human rights cause.”
I think you meant to say a “real fetus rights cause.” Please use proper scientific and medical terminology.
“Wrong. Every doctor I know would recommend a D&E over a dangerous miscarriage at home or the ER. It is far safer to have a D&E than to have some nurse or fellow perforate the uterus in a crowded Emergency Room at 3 in the morning.”
I’m so thankful I don’t use OBs. I recently had a miscarriage at home, and was able to tell after passing our BABY that death had occurred a few weeks prior due to the size. I know I would have pressured by an OB to have a dangerous removal of our baby once a heartbeat could not be detected. God has designed our bodies to safely pass a child who dies in the womb.
“You should really find another cause – a real human rights cause.”
Speaking out for fellow humans who have no voice IS a real human rights cause. They can not speak for themselves, but most assuredly all of them do not want to die. Our survival instinct causes even the smallest among us to try and flee from death, but aborted babies have nowhere to hide.
Thanks so much for all you do Jill!
Question:
The protester can be heard asking the father why he was at an abortion clinic. If such a pregnancy could soon endanger the life of the mother, why did they have to go to an abortion clinic? Why couldn’t the hospital help them?
Just a heartbreaker all around. Link to the article and read some of the responses, 100 percent pro-abortion all the way. I posted there, but it probably won’t do any good.
I’m so sorry, Christy.
It seems that this man is very frustrated and used the two ladies on the street as a way to validate his and his wife’s ‘choice’. He claims that he and his wife wanted this baby and even had a name for her, Alexandra. But I wonder if they even made arrangements for a burial for their little girl. I also wonder if they were concerned enough about their little girl to give her anesthetics for the procedure. From what I read, their little girl was only missing some organs but her brain and nervous systems seemed fine. I also have been reading a lot of the comments people have been posting and many applaud this man for confronting the two ladies and for aborting little Alexandra. It seems that no one was interested in whether or not little Alexandra was treated as a person at all. That is the saddest thing from this whole incident and the thing that most pro-lifers have to deal with. The fact that a person is not seen as a person at all. Little Alexandra might have not survive a long time on this world, but whatever time she had was not full of love and acceptance from her parents or the rest of the world. Imagine if someone tells you that your child, regardless of his age, will die soon, would you just end your child’s life on the spot? or would you enjoy every second left of his/her life despite the grief of knowing that the end is near? Unlike Jill I don’t feel sorry for these parents which seem quite selfish with their own emotions. They never considered her little girl…
I wish those women had taken a breath, calmed down and spoken lovingly to him. I think they felt threatened by an angry man coming at them but still, I wish they had handled it differently. Pro-lifers are human. Sometime we respond humanly and not as God would want us to respond. its hard when someone is yelling in your face and acting aggressively to respond in a loving manner. Hopefully these women will see this video and know how to better respond next time something like this happens. And I pray for the husband and his wife that they will find healing and repentance. It is a scary thing to think that some parents would kill their children for not being good enough. If the child would die anyhow then why not cherish every moment you would have with that baby?
My son will most likely die someday (as a Christian I always have the hope of Rapture but we don’t know it will occur in our lifetime) Since my son may die one day should I just kill him now? After all, he’s going to die anyhow. No. Every day of life is a precious gift. What is wrong with our thinking???? There is no respect for life anymore. Now you must have health in order to be worthy to live. I hope their other child never gets sick. Would this man consider euthanasia if his other child was diagnosed as terminally ill? Awful.
If such a pregnancy could soon endanger the life of the mother, why did they have to go to an abortion clinic? Why couldn’t the hospital help them?
That’s what I was wondering too. Why have weeks of testing at a renowned hospital and then have the actual abortion at the local in-and-out chop shop?
There’s a documentary about a girl named Shiloh with this syndrome. She lived to be ten years old, even though the doctors said she’d make it a couple of days at most. Her mother, on Shiloh’s life:
“She did everything with a zest for life,” Leslie Pepin said Sunday through her tears. “It didn’t matter if she did big things or stayed at home with her dad. The quality of life was there.”
http://www.seacoastonline.com/articles/20091025-NEWS-910259986
Bobby, Sydney,
I agree that these women could have handled things better, however there are a couple of potential mitigating factors here. First, we know only the video. We don’t know when he began the confrontation. Only when he began filming.
Second he was on the sidewalk and they were between him and the traffic on the road. They were dealing with a belligerent man and had no safe exit should he have escalted his confrontation.
Third, we can’t see his size, his face, his posture, or anything he might have been holding in his other hand. We cannot see if there were others standing with him.
Fourth, these women were being filmed and were probably intimidated by the camera and what would come next.
So, in sum there is a great deal that this video does not show that would have direct bearing on these women’s demeanor. I doubt that a loving approach would have made a difference. He came out spoiling for a fight and filming the event. He wasn’t about to change. Showing a little prickly defensiveness on camera might have been the smartest move. It showed that he was the aggressor and that they were afraid, again being caught between him, parked cars, and oncoming traffic.
re: Dhalgren
||There’s also the increased risk of breast cancer from abortions due to ||increased exposure to estrogen and decreased maturation of breast cells.
|Not only is this incorrect, it is a fear mongering lie. Let the peer reviewed |studies and actual doctors judge. Not armchair activists at home.
Who’s lying? Maybe someone is ignorant… not deceptive. I’ll give the benefit of the doubt.
Why don’t we look at the vast majority of studies instead of listening to the pot calling the kettle black? Abortion does increase breast cancer risks. Wishing doesn’t make it not so.
http://www.abortionbreastcancer.com/ABC_Research/graphs/
What a heartbreaking story.
It does seem unusual, but not entirely implausible, that they were at an abortion clinic for this – I mean as opposed to in a more hospital-y setting. Complications with the pregnancy - though nothing this traumatic – were what led me to an abortion clinic. Granted I was not very far along, but I had no insurance and the clinic was by far the easiest, cheapest option.
Sydney,
IMHO
I think it’s fear that drives women to abort a child less than perfect. I think they conjure up images of what their child with a deformity might look like and instead of facing the reality of their baby they let someone else kill him/her so they don’t have to see. Better to hide in the dark and be safe in the not knowing I guess.
?
The moms I know were pleasantly surprised at how absolutely beautiful their babies were when they were born with fetal deformities.
Alexandra,
I know we have probably discussed this. It has been awhile.
If your baby died before you went to the abortion clinic then you did not have an abortion.
It’s oddly unimportant to me whether it was dead already, Carla. I know you don’t understand that but it’s true. In all the factions of this contentious issue, I identify most strongly with women who have had abortions. I obviously don’t identify with women who have never been pregnant, and I don’t identify strongly with women who have miscarried. I did not want to be pregnant; had things progressed “normally” I would have considered abortion anyway; I was nothing but relieved to have it all over with, once it was over, however it was over. My situation was complicated but in terms of my own purely emotional reactions, I identify most strongly with women who have had an abortion. The fact that I am not particularly bothered by whether or not I had an abortion or miscarried is part of that – it happened, that’s that; I’m fine and I am who I am today regardless; c’est la vie. I have gone through far worse things in my life. I really see no point in looking backward or wallowing in self-doubt and what-ifs.
Additionally, I usually refer to the circumstances surrounding things, the objective facts of the situation – that the woman who performed the abortion was the most compassionate person I encountered throughout the experience, that complications led me to the clinic in the first place – rather than the procedure itself, since I am aware that it was an atypical experience in that sense. I rarely comment with my personal experience, for example, on post-abortive regret, because I’m aware that whatever my experiences have been, they were not the result of the stereotypical abortion experience that is commonly being discussed. I try to only comment on topics that have little to do with my unusual circumstances: the practices of the clinic I went to; the demeanor of the doctor; the advice I was given before and after. These things do not change whether my child was alive or dead before my appointment.
99 Balloons; a beautiful story. The video Jill posted reminded me of this story
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th6Njr-qkq0
Re: Carla:
:) Okay… but if I find you handing out any more troll kibbles than that, young lady, you’re going to shovel out the troll pens for a week!
Dr. Nadal, thank you for your response to Dhalgren.
I feel so sorry for this man and his wife, and their daughter too. Obviously they were in a great deal of pain, and the man wished to take it out on the pro-life protesters. It’s a shame they felt they had no other choice but to kill their daughter. I wish they’d been told they had other options, but that seems to be something the pro-“choice” crowd isn’t interested in doing.
Alexandra,
I long to know the truth in any situation. The truth.
An abortion kills a living child.
Whether you identify with women who have had abortions and do not regret them does not answer the question if you had an abortion or not. Whether you do not identify with women who have had miscarriages does not answer the question either.
If you do not know whether your child had died before you arrived at the clinic then say so.
The reason I bring it up is that you have been here off and on for years and never talked of your experience. You seemed to be on the fence between prolife and prochoice although still very liberal.
And now you are talking about it.
Paladin,
I solemnly swear to divvy up the troll kibble or I will shovel the consequences.
My beautiful granddaughter, born at term with anencephaly. Lived six precious days. We never put her down. We sang songs, read to her, cuddled her. We suffered anxiety, sorrow, pain and grief, but we will never suffer regret for ending her life.
“I will praise you, for she was fearfully and wonderfully made” just as fearfully and wonderfully as any child. She was meant for heaven. Her life was consecrated to God.
The father asks, “What are you doing out here making people feel awful about themselves?” He is responsible for his emotions and sense of self worth, not the protesters. Blaming someone else for the way he feels isn’t going to get him very far in the healing process. I wish this man and his wife peace and comfort, and may their child rest always in the arms of the Lord.
Thank you, Dr Nadal, for noting the safety issues.
Poor baby Alexandra. May she rest in peace. Her parents should have gone to a baby hospice instead of having her slaughtered at an abortion clinic. What a way to honor her short life.
This guy is euthanizing his infant as though she was a mere dog and yelling at these women on a recording he made (and we don’t hear them “yelling” at all) Who’s the “lowest common denominator?”
Re: Carla: (*laugh*)
(*assuming thick brogue of Irish grandfather*) Yon troll pens be pretty nasty, ye know…
justlookingon,
What a beautiful comment. What a beautiful testimony of love to your granddaughter.
Thank you for sharing your joy/pain.
My dear friends had a daughter born with anencephaly. She lived for an hour. She is loved for a lifetime.
Christy you wrote, “I’m so thankful I don’t use OBs. I recently had a miscarriage at home, and was able to tell after passing our BABY that death had occurred a few weeks prior due to the size. I know I would have pressured by an OB to have a dangerous removal of our baby once a heartbeat could not be detected. God has designed our bodies to safely pass a child who dies in the womb.”
I had a miscarriage to however the baby never came out. When I went to have the D&C there was no baby…many women have what’s called a “Miss miscarriage”, ashes to ashes dust to dust my baby had died weeks earlier and then my body absorbed it. That is how it was explained to me.
Justlooking on, what a beautiful story. I hope that I’m not being insensitive, but were you able to donate the baby’s organs?
There was that beautiful video of baby Thomas on youtube who died 5 days or so after birth. His parents were determined not to abort even though they were told Thomas was sick and would die. He died naturaly in their arms and they did not regret any of the precious memories they had with him.
Here is the link to Thomas’s story.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToNWquoXqJI
If you do not know whether your child had died before you arrived at the clinic then say so.
I have said as much before. I have talked of my experience before – with you, and here in general. I don’t talk about it much in part because I was asked not to, since the fact that I am not particularly devastated by any of it bothered some people; but also because I just don’t really feel much urge to. My feelings are irrelevant when it comes to the larger issues being discussed, and I certainly don’t need them validated - so I don’t really see much need to talk about them; and if I felt a need to talk about them, I wouldn’t do it here.
I care about the truth. When it matters. When it’s simply ruminating on the past, I don’t find that it matters much - I prefer to simply move on. I don’t know what “still very liberal” means – I rarely discuss politics, even here. I am an emotionally intuitive person in real life but I am an intellectually honest person first and foremost. Or I suppose I like to think that I am – I suppose that’s what everyone thinks about themselves!
How often are perinatal palliative care options covered by private and/or public insurance? I’m sure the payment schemes are really confusing. Also, both parents and doctors lack awareness of palliative care–it’s often assumed that a baby will be given first-line aggressive treatment right up until his/her death, rather than going home with the family and dying in their loving presence. This is a confusing situation for everybody, and it’s truly insensitive to say this man and his wife were not “courageous” enough to go through with the birth of a very sick infant. I don’t think people understand the options. Our health care system should offer palliative care programs, including coordination of the required health professionals, social workers and counselors, as a viable alternative to late-term abortion.
The fact that this man was outside yelling at the pro-lifers while his wife was inside, without his support, going through an incredibly painful experience, is unsettling. I, too, wonder why they didn’t seek actual medical care at a hospital rather than a chop shop.
The father asks, “What are you doing out here making people feel awful about themselves?” He is responsible for his emotions and sense of self worth, not the protesters. Blaming someone else for the way he feels isn’t going to get him very far in the healing process.
FedUp, I agree. And it’s easier to blame bystanders who point out the unethical decisions we make than it is to reconsider our own actions and their effects on our lives.
I just don’t understand the idea of killing one’s own child by dismemberment or suction or cardiac arrest instead of allowing the process to occur naturally. It isn’t to spare their child pain (I can’t begin to imagine the pain of dismemberment), it’s to spare them, or so they think, of further pain.
Why on earth should this woman go through a pregnancy with all the attendant risks and impending sorrow? It is safer for her to end the pregnancy now. For many women the psychological impact is less if things are not dragged out. Not always, but that’s an individual response supported by CHOICE.
I think Dhalgren made a clear and rational comment regarding the facts of the matter.
Dr. Nadal, your personal battle with Dr. Louise Brinton and your personal convictions do not constitute the burden of proof regarding the ABC link. (I also note your site is not meeting the functions you professed for it a while back)
“When scientists are so ideologically driven that they are willing to deceive themselves, that’s a tragedy.” and worse if they deceive others.
for a moment there I thought you meant troll ‘pens’ as in writing sticks – I thought I was up for a gift :-(
“On the most difficult day of a woman’s life, when she urgently needs this medical procedure, the last thing she needs is some stranger telling her that she is killing her ‘baby.’”
Love how Dhalgren claims the woman ‘needs’ this procedure. No. She. Does. Not.
Yes, her situation is difficult, but what is utterly reprehensible is the use of this situation to justify the vast majority of abortions which have no such ‘need’.
Despicable, Dhalgren. Utterly evil.
I was an unplanned pregnancy and I have a niece with Down’s Syndrome, so I have real problems with those like Aaron Gouveia who think they hold the moral high ground. Not when you are killing defenceless little people, no matter the reason. And thank you Dr Nadal, you said most of what I would’ve with both your responses. But as usual, you said it better.
Sydney @5:15 PM,
Thanks for linking to baby Thomas’ story. For those who haven’t watched the video, I don’t think I’ve heard a more touching story than his. Don’t forget the Kleenex.
It is safer for her to end the pregnancy now. For many women the psychological impact is less if things are not dragged out.
cran,
And you would know this because…………?
I just don’t understand the idea of killing one’s own child by dismemberment or suction or cardiac arrest instead of allowing the process to occur naturally.
I don’t either when it’s phrased in those terms. But that’s not necessarily how it’s presented. I had a friend who was scheduled for a D & E. Her physician had neglected to explain much about the procedure. When I gave her some information, she was horrified at what the doc had neglected to tell her and her husband.
“It is safer for her to end the pregnancy now. For many women the psychological impact is less if things are not dragged out.”
I’m wondering how you would know this too cranium. Is there more to the story of your little girl’s life then you’ve told us?
Not at all Praxedes, everything was completely ‘normal’ in all regards and then basically just stopped just before due date.
I have been around for a long, long time. I have met and spoken with women who lamented that they had to endure what they knew to be pointless gestations. Others who had no forewarning wished that they had known so they could have curtailed the ‘exercise’.
Like I said, that does not apply in all cases but women deserve the personal choice that suits them.
Some of you (not sure if this includes you Carla but I think it does) have spent time with women who have come to regret their decision to abort. But that’s all you see. Some women. Some who regret.
Hands up those who haven’t made decisions in their lives that they regret to some extent or at some stage (other than abort/keep). It’s life.
You would be right that I spend my time with post abortive women and men. Through Operation Outcry, Rachel’s Vineyard retreats and abortion recovery through my local pregnancy center. Oh and the countless emails I get from women through this blog. Some? Whatevs.
What I find fascinating is that people assume that they will know how they will feel after an abortion is over, but before they even have it! Like they are determined as I was to suck it up and get through it and be strong. Too bad the truth of the killing of your own child does catch up to women and men.
When I stand with my I Regret My Abortion sign someone usually walks up to me and says, “Well, you shouldn’t have had one then!”
Genius.
The fact that this man was outside yelling at the pro-lifers while his wife was inside, without his support, going through an incredibly painful experience, is unsettling.
Good point – I didn’t even think of that.
Hands up those who haven’t made decisions in their lives that they regret to some extent or at some stage (other than abort/keep). It’s life.
Not when it’s death.
Our society as a whole cannot deal healthily with death and dying and it seems that to euthanize is seen as humane. Though it’s hard to envision someone deciding to cut their toddler’s life short because they were terminally ill, it’s not hard to see that down the road aways. Somehow the father himself recognized that this was a baby, with a name and other characteristics. That is euthanasia. Had the parents also recognized that the baby had feelings like them they might have chosen to love her even in or through her infirmity for whatever the length of her short life. Clearly they were afraid or unwilling to do that. The father sounds and seems extremely angry and unhinged. He seems to be taking his anger out on the protesters. He is enraged that they stated something about killing babies while he acknowledges later that this is what they were doing, killing a baby with a name. I suspect that the anger is misplaced grief which could have been channeled along a natural course. But our society suggests the immediate solutions but none as to how to deal with that grief which must occur as a natural consequence to bearing a child. Without this process, the natural impulses turn towards the solutions offered, such as euthanasia type options. Of course guilt is a different feeling and it’s difficult to also experience that in such horrendous circumstances. So the man vents his rage on the protesters. The comments to his article are all congratulatory and perhaps in the short term he is content with that, for after all he had the presence of mind to film the encounter even in his situation. But in time?
Some Carla, some. How many abortions do we keep being told take place each year? And how many women have you dealt with who are unhappy with their decision?
People do a lot of things without being sure of how they’ll feel about it later. Or what the outcomes may be. That too is life.
Yes Marauder, when it’s death too. Death is a part of life. Birth itself eventually leads to death.
And you are assuming I am the only post abortive woman in the world helping other post abortive women and men?
Yep. Just me. LOL
PS
On average a woman stays in denial of the killing of her own child for 7-9 years before seeking help. You do the math. Oh and yes. Some women don’t seem bothered in the least by their abortions. That doesn’t mean they are fine.
The other thing I have been thinking on is the fact that a lot of doctors seem to URGE abortion when any sort of fetal anomaly is found. My in-laws have good friends. Their son and his wife found out they were having a Downs child. The doctors kept pressuring abortion. A childhood friend of my sisters just this past year found out her child was very very sick at 28 weeks. They pushed her to terminate too. She delivered early and the child passed after a day or two but she said how very happy she was to be able to hold him and that the whole extended family came to see him and hold him as he passed.
I know in my pregnancy my ob/gyn was VERY insistent that I have chorionic villi sampling done. knowing the risks of miscarriage after such a procedure and determined that I would give birth even if my child was sick I said no. I can’t tell you how much that man HOUNDED me to get all these tests done! I finally freaked out on him and said basically “Don’t you get it???? I won’t abort!!!! I don’t want any tests!!!!! Stop asking me or I will find a new practice!”
I am sure for a lot of parents when they are given an adverse fetal diagnosis that the pressure to abort from docs, and even family and friends is unbearable. I don’t think parents sometimes know where to find support. I still can’t imagine going through with it, but maybe this is where this man and his wife were. Without any hope or support to see them through.
Too many proabort doctors out there, Sydney. They do not even suggest support groups or resources for a fetal anomaly. Just terminate, terminate, terminate.
My sister pointed me to this video. I think it contains all the answers required to Aaron Gouveia and the pro-aborts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8okYhcRwrgY
Fear not cranium. I’ve been pretty ill for two weeks, but I’m pretty much back on my feet and will be posting a few reviews a day to catch up on the promise.
As for my war with Brinton, actually the literature more than meets the criteria used in medicine to establish causality and not merely correlation, though you’ll have to wait a few weeks for that one.
As for my personal convictions, if you’ve read the 50+ articles that I’ve wriitten on the ABC link, then you’ll see scientific analysis with arguments based upon the scientific method. You’ll also see an abundance of pro-choice quotes from the Brinton Gang. So your ideology has clouded the lens of your perspective.
“I have met and spoken with women who lamented that they had to endure what they knew to be pointless gestations.”
Was your daughter’s life pointless cranium? If you die this week, will your life have been pointless?
“The other thing I have been thinking on is the fact that a lot of doctors seem to URGE abortion when any sort of fetal anomaly is found”
Sidney, I was urged to abort 14 years ago when a fibroid was found growing next to my son. Still have the fibroid. Still have the son. Both are a bit larger now but so am I. (:
Give me some numbers then Carla. How many abortions each year? How many people undertaking the same role as you? How many people do each of you deal with each year?
Help me do the math.
Then tell me how many women really wished they had not had a child. You can’t, nobody can. Because any woman who said such a thing out loud would be ostracized and hounded out of town. How many women have their unwanted motherhood manifest as other issues which don’t get attributed to the real cause?
“Some women don’t seem bothered in the least by their abortions. That doesn’t mean they are fine.” – why? Because they’ve broken your moral code?
Dr. Nadal, I’m sorry you have been unwell and am glad you are back.
Let me see. On one side we have someone who is stridently anti-abortion dredging up outdated and obscure articles claiming there is a link between abortion and breast cancer.
On the other we have a raft of current, independent scientific organizations who say that any claimed links are discredited. On a much wider scale than anything from Brinton.
Whose lens of perspective is clouded?
Praxedes, LOL! On a serious note, I am so so so glad your son is with you today. :-)
I also would like to know how long one has to live outside the womb for the gestation to have not been pointless. Are we talking a day? A week? A year? 20 years? 80 years?
Wouldn’t matter to you in the least, cran.
Night all. Love fighting the good fight with you amazing folks!!
Cranium,
Thank you for your well wishes. They’re always appreciated. A few observations.
First, scientific data are never outdated. This is especially true of data that keeps coming up the same year after year. Just last year Brinton published a paper showing a 40% increased risk of BC in women who have abortions and discussed induced abortion and oral contraceptives as known risk factors for BC. That hardly seems outdated, and is more than a little inconsistent with her pro-abort panel’s distancing themselves from their own data. Even the prospective studies they cherish show similar risk factors. If you’ve been reading my posts then you would have known that.
Also, as I am developing the analyses, we see that studies using NCI grants (which need to pass muster with the Brinton Gang) are the ones massaging the numbers. Studies in other countries not dependant on NCI grant money are showing in study after study since 2003 robust risk factors associated with induced abortion. In my absence, you’ve no doubt had ample time to digest all of that.
As for that raft, it’s really a log. Everyone quotes the NCI fact sheet. There have been no other independent analyses since 2003.
gee, what a surprise. yet again my words appear to have been deliberately misconstrued.
By ‘pointless gestation’ I was referring to knowing the feus is not viable due to major abnormalities or deficiencies.
That’s not a very strong argument you are making for your claims Carla. Am I left to assume the numbers are not significant?
Can you also tell me; of the people who require your assistance, how many are affected simply because they regret not having the child their pregnancy would have delivered, and how many are affected because they have changed their stance/opinion/faith?
First, scientific data are never outdated. <In some cases there are supplementary sources or changes due to emergent parameters.> This is especially true of data that keeps coming up the same year after year. Just last year Brinton published a paper showing a 40% increased risk of BC in women who have abortions and <discussed> induced abortion and oral contraceptives as <claimed> <but unproven> risk factors for BC. That hardly seems outdated, <but delivers no new evidence> – there, fixed!
The studies from other countries that I have observed (independent, cancer council studies with no agenda or suspect funding) all state that the link between abortion and increased breast cancer is discredited.
Cranium,
Nice attempt at distortion. That’s why I’m doing a thorough analysis.
havent’ read all the comments but here we go:
“I do wonder if the pro-lifers could have handled the situation better, although the 2 women were obviously unprepared to handle an angry, confrontational, potentially volatile man.
That said, I didn’t think they responded badly, even though Tracy Clark-Forey at Salon accused “the Christian protesters [of] decidedly un-Christ-like behavior.” Didn’t see any of that. I think they were simply unnerved. ”
First off I have a HUGE issue with the woman holding the Divine Mercy picture of Christ. Not the place to be doing this. She can pray the chaplet privately but I just don’t see the relevance of this here.
To be effective with sidewalk counselling and interaction I would say based on my personal experience that God is best left out of it unless for some reason you are able to determine that the person is a believer (in which case they probably wouldn’t be there).
IMO, these women handled the confrontation very badly.
First acknowledge the father’s pain. It’s real. he’s hurting.
Then state that there were options they could have considered other than abortion? Were these options presented to them? (Maybe this would try to engage him in some kind of meaningful discussion.) Many couples do continue with their pregnancy until either there is a miscarriage or the baby is born and either is dead or dies shortly afterwards. Acknowledge the pain this brings but that this suffering is not useless or lacks benefit. They are able to meet their baby, say goodbye and have some sort of closure. Killing their child through abortion is NOT a solution. Instead it compounds the pain they are already feeling.
I would also have pointed out that he was quite right to “feel bad”. After all, he and his wife are killing their baby and quite possibly doing irreparable harm to the mother’s body. The pictures show what he and his wife have done to their baby.
When you are in public in this manner, you must be prepared. Holding a sign is one thing.
Meeting people where they are is another. Realizing that the truth hurts is important too.
The other option would have been to have said nothing and simply let him vent since he likely was not interested in listening anyway.
It’s a decision that must be made in the heat of the moment.
My prayer is that his conscience was stirred and he will continue to think about what happened and why he was so disturbed by the prolifers presence.
Yep, good luck with that Dr. Nadal.
If anything shocks me about this video and the responses to it, it’s this:
Several people seem wholly convinced that the pro-lifers handled this poorly and that they should’ve responded differently to this man.
Frankly, I find that assertion outrageous!
Let’s make this simple: This guy was ticked and wanted to pick a fight. He didn’t care about the moral consequences, but rather wished to make someone feel bad because he didn’t wish to be a responsible parent. Period.
I imagine some–many?–will find that a heartless assessment. So be it.
The pro-choice/pro-abortion side has, since before 1973, insisted on their absolute right to set the rules. The only time the pro-life side has any right to disagree is when we can discern some vaguely workable solution to life’s difficulties. Even then, if even the slightest bit goes poorly, we’re always assumed to be the culprits. The debate has never been a truthfully fair fight.
If we’re ever going to win this battle, we’re going to need to be sticky about precisely what we’re really obligated to do, know, or understand, and what we’re not. We can’t afford to allow the side of death any wiggle room, merely because they can exploit life’s problems.
By the way, I thought the image of the Divine Mercy was a WONDERFUL idea. I wish people would do a great deal more of that. On those occasions when I’ve prayed outside a “clinic”, I’ve found those ghastly images of aborted children..intensely disheartening. I understand the point that people intend to make with those, but I must disagree with whether it’s truly effective. If those images were going to provoke people to comprehend life, I would think they would’ve done so by now.
Again, I’m sure many will disagree with me, but I’ll give you this thought: We already know that we’re walking onto a battle-ground of sorts whenever we protest a “clinic”. Why not bring imagery that, at the very least, encourages us in our efforts and even reminds people of God or one of His signs or saints? Rather than a gory reminder of what’s not changing soon, how about if we bring some reassuring imagery with us to the “battlefield”?
“By the way, I thought the image of the Divine Mercy was a WONDERFUL idea. I wish people would do a great deal more of that. On those occasions when I’ve prayed outside a “clinic”, I’ve found those ghastly images of aborted children..intensely disheartening. I understand the point that people intend to make with those, but I must disagree with whether it’s truly effective. If those images were going to provoke people to comprehend life, I would think they would’ve done so by now.
Again, I’m sure many will disagree with me, but I’ll give you this thought: We already know that we’re walking onto a battle-ground of sorts whenever we protest a “clinic”. Why not bring imagery that, at the very least, encourages us in our efforts and even reminds people of God or one of His signs or saints? Rather than a gory reminder of what’s not changing soon, how about if we bring some reassuring imagery with us to the “battlefield”?”
Because John, it all depends upon your purpose for being on the sidewalk outside the clinic. If you are there to prick a person’s conscience, an image of what they are about to do to their baby might be helpful. Since women are NOT told what will happen to their baby and they prefer not to think about it, they should know. They have a right to know. Most women are told their babies are not what they really are – unborn, little persons with beating hearts, tiny hands and growing limbs. They SHOULD see what abortion does. They aren’t likely to remember the Divine Mercy pic but I assure you they will remember the aborted baby pic.
I also take issue with your comment of the man avoiding “responsible parenthood”. We don’t know WHAT this couple was told by doctors. People can only go by what their doctor tells them and some people NEVER question the opinion of doctors. They may not have known about the alternative support available for parents. It is likely they were not given any positive information PLUS they are dealing with the sorrow of having a baby who is seriously ill. That’s alot to cope with? Not everyone has their conscience formed properly and we are all products of our culture. He likely has thought that the abortion was THE responsible way of dealing with this situation.
That’s why we must meet these people where they are. And that’s why the Divine Mercy image won’t work. I just believe it’s the wrong approach. I’m Catholic and I believe the chaplet prayed outside the clinic is one of THE best and most efficacious of prayers. But people going into abortion clinics are in a particular mindframe. This man was dealing with a crisis in his life. We focus on one thing at a time – the main thing is offering him explanations and opposing arguments, alternatives and future help. Not converting him religiously. :(
Well cran,
I am not helping women to “study” them and get some stats and facts and research data like my good friend Dr. Nadal does with the abortion/breast cancer link. This is not a project.
So my answer to you would have to be no. I do not know how many believe this or that or how many think like this or that or how many I have helped over the years.
Think about this. The 2,000 pregnancy care centers in this country with post abortive resources, the hotline for abortion recovery receiving thousands of calls a week, Heartbeat International helping 25,000 women in the years it has offered help, Rachel’s Vineyard retreats happening around the country several times a year with up to 15 participants. Silent No More testimonies, rallies and conferences. Operation Outcry reaching thousands with resources. This list is by no means exhaustive as I can not estimate how many post abortive women have written their own recovery resources and hold them in churches and their own homes. Oh, and there are so many more abortion recovery resources that I have not listed. In my neck of the woods there is Healing Hearts, Conquerors and various group studies like Surrendering the Secret or Forgiven and Set Free. Many of these resources are offered around the world.
Not to worry. The mission field of abortion recovery is ripe. Here am I Lord, send me.
And cran, there are the women who never call helplines or go on retreats. They never talk publicly. They cry with their best friends because they know outspoken proaborts like yourself would just invalidate their feelings anyway.
True that, Praxedes.
If 1 in 3(used to be 1 in 4)have had abortions one need only look around to find someone that is post abortive and never spoken to anyone about it. Abortion affects us all.
How many women are sitting in churches across this great country and believing the lie that God could never forgive them for their abortions? I did. For years and years. I can hardly bear the thought that women are filled with shame and regret and do not reach out for help.
If you are reading this and are struggling after your abortion please email me
carla@jillstanek.com
or you can call The National Helpline for Abortion Recovery
1-866-482-5433
There is hope and healing for you!!
Sounds like that dad was upset at God. Not the pro lifers. He was angry that they were protesting and making people feel bad on one of their worst days.
I pray he gets the support he needs and the mother gets the support she needs.
Daddy just took out his anger on the prolifers. Yep. We don’t “make” anyone feel bad. Daddy felt bad all on his own by being at the abortion clinic. I will pray that they find peace and healing in abortion recovery.
Since everyone will die eventually, does that make all gestation ‘pointless’?
I have a beautiful 2 1/2 year-old little girl who the doctors believe would be a Down Syndrome baby, because of bloodwork results. It was recommended that I visit an ultrasound specialist who was better qualified to make assumptions such as these. He proceeded to tell me that I should strongly consider having an abortion. I told him, “Nah, if we don’t like her after she’s born we’ll just take her out back and shoot her.” That shut him up!
Shel,
PERFECT! Thank you for that!
ninek,
My children are all going to die one day. Can I kill them?
“The reason I bring it up is that you have been here off and on for years and never talked of your experience. ”
Alexandra never really gave us a straight story on whether she had an abortion or not or what the condition was with her baby. I think she had morning sickness and couldn’t deal with it. She’s in a state of denial.
Daddy felt bad all on his own by being at the abortion clinic.
Yep, hence the victim-turned-hero drama outside the clinic and the article afterward. I think it’s interesting that he writes, “Stop adding trauma to their trauma.” Isn’t he saying that abortion is traumatic for women even if no protesters are present?
I pray for healing for this man and his wife.
Jasper, Carla,
FYI, I recall Alexandra giving a pretty detailed account of her difficult experience a while back. Maybe it’s not good to press the issue if she doesn’t want to discuss details again. Just my two cents.
Just wanted her to be straight forward with her experience. She may or may not want to discuss it and that is fine by me but to say she had an abortion isn’t truthful if she does not know.
Alexandra seems fine with her whole experience and the compassion she was shown at the abortion clinic and said as much.
Carla,
Gotcha. Gotta run, so have a good day all!
Angel,
While I understand your thought process, I strongly disagree with you.
I’ve heard the argument about pricking someone’s conscience with graphic images many times; those images have been around for most of 20 years, if not longer. As have the TV commercials with charred lungs, fried eggs, and so forth, that warn about the dangers of smoking, drugs, alcohol, or whatever. Last I checked, smoking, drugs, alcohol, and other problems haven’t ceased being problems. Therefore, I think we need to reconsider whether these images of unborn children truthfully work. Then again, consider that we’ve had graphic, bloody video games, movies, and other “entertainment” since my youth. I have to think that many people live lives that are relatively desensitized to graphic imagery. I will even contend that a Divine Mercy image might manage to be somewhat more shocking to a man than the bloody child. If you’ve been reveling in manure long enough, sometimes a fresh odor shocks you into reality more thoroughly. And, let’s face it: I don’t like looking at graphic images. Nor do most others. In most conversations I’ve had with “non-committals”, the strongest reaction has been disgust or loathing for those who carry those images. I think we all know what’s going on rather well and we all know that it’s not having the intended impact. I don’t think we need to eliminate ALL graphic pictures, but I think a positive image would do everyone some good.
I also stand by my statement with regard to responsible parenthood. I don’t mean that we should stand on street-corners, screaming, “You’re irresponsible!”, at fathers and mothers. I DO think though, that we need to make it clear that abortion is NOT an act of a responsible parent. We can do that by asking them what they think they’re doing and/or what they think it means to be responsible. Simply trying to help him believe that he’s OK isn’t going to change his mind, nor hers. The time for that would’ve been while they were still at home, debating whether they should do this or not.
You say that we need to address his concerns because he’s dealing with a crisis? Well, may I suggest that, in fact, he’s NOT dealing with a crisis? Not well, at least.
Did you notice that he started into a group of medical “facts” as soon as they challenged him on anything? There’s no way they could’ve persuaded him to change his mind, even if they’d had a ream of data proving the contrary idea. He already “knew” what he needed to know and could dismiss their information as “lies”; someone else already did so in this column, by the way. He simply wanted to prove them “wrong” and upbraid them for challenging his “correct” decision. The only way I’ve seen to address that is..perhaps let him rant, but pray silently and let him walk away.
I’m quite intrigued by has actions in a sense: Notice that he bugged two people with a Divine Mercy image, not two people with gory pictures. Granted, we don’t know what else was around, but I wonder if he picked on them for a reason. He may not be religious, but I’ll bet he’s seen at least one picture of Christ before. Can you say with any certainty that this image didn’t bother him as much as anything?
Carla, suffering post-abortive women are EVERYWHERE. I am not post-abortive and don’t minister in that way and yet just from my job I came in contact with quite a few post-abortive women. Some were my own employees who strangely enough when we were working alone making small talk brought up past abortions with great timidness. When they saw that I didn’t respond by shushing them they talked with great relief and tears about their pain and regret. If it wasn’t something pressing greatly on the souls of these women why would they ever bring it up at work of all places?
These suffering women are everywhere! And I know you know that Carla but others just don’t seem to realize the walking wounded among us.
Syd,
They are everywhere!
I purposely go on facebook to groups and threads and there is always a post abortive woman who expresses regret and wonders aloud if God will ever forgive her. I have made many friendships reaching out to them. Old friends of mine message me to tell me about their abortions as well.
Thank you for being that safe place for women!!! You listened without condemning.
:)
I have a beautiful 2 1/2 year-old little girl who the doctors believe would be a Down Syndrome baby, because of bloodwork results.
So does your daughter have Down Syndrome, Shel? Not that you would love her any less.
I am beginning to think that there are those out there who really, really HATE people with physical and mental handicaps, and that’s pretty sick.
What is the significance of the Divine Mercy image, if I may ask?
Oh, that’s a great question, Phillymiss.
Catholics are allowed to believe in certain “private revelations.” These are revelations that God has given to individuals or groups of people which the Catholic church has THOROUGHLY and CAREFULLY investigated, and found that the message that was received is consistent with the public, divine revelation given by Jesus to teh apostles. The Catholic Church has deemed man, many so-called private revelations as not being a real revelation from God at all, but some, like the Divine Mercy, they have deemed worthy of Catholic devotion. Note that it is NEVER binding on a Catholic to accept private revelation. He may if he wishes to, but the revelation that God intended for us to know for the sake of our salvation ended with the death of teh last apostle. Hence, no new revelation is given which one MUST believe in order to be saved. Nevertheless, if we choose, there are certain private revelations which we may accept.
Having said all that, the image is from a private revelation to Sr. Faustina who was a nun in Poland in the early 1900s. She experienced many conversations with Jesus and wrote them down in her diary which is available for purchase. In particular, Jesus requested of her that she draw (or have someone draw?) a picture of him which he described to her. It ended up being exactly the divine mercy image. The basic message of Jesus to Sr Faustina is one I think taht all Christians can embarce, which is one of mercy. Jesus talked about how the floodgates of his mercy are opened to teh world, and how much he wishes to pour his divine mercy abundantly upon us, but taht we are so resistant. There is a prayer called the Divine Mercy Chaplet which Catholics say on teh rosary beads, but I think a Protestant would have no problem saying. I understand the Protestant’s aversion to teh rosary prayer, but I think they might be willing to pray the Divine mercy chaplet. The basic prayers are these:
Eternal Father, I offer you the body, blood, soul, and divinity of your dearly beloved son OUr Lord Jesus Christ in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world.
For teh sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on teh whole world.
Jesus, I trust in you!
I actually use that as my act of contrition in confession. Anyway, to make what should have been a short answer long, it is an image of Jesus pouring his mercy out upon us and teh whole world.
Alexandra never really gave us a straight story on whether she had an abortion or not or what the condition was with her baby. I think she had morning sickness and couldn’t deal with it. She’s in a state of denial.
For the record, I have discussed it in quite a bit of detail, ironically perhaps most explicitly with you, Jasper – both here and elsewhere. If you need a refresher, here you go: 2secondsfaster.com/2009/05/saturday-mixer-xiv/ I had already explained things to you once at the time we had that discussion.
It’s not that I actively don’t wish to discuss it - it’s just that it’s pretty low on my list of things to discuss, in general. I don’t really feel much desire to talk about it, or whatever. But if it were higher I imagine it’d be little wonder I wouldn’t choose this as a forum for discussion. Yes, I simply had MORNING SICKNESS and COULDN’T DEAL WITH IT. Go talk to Ashli McCall, Jasper. You are as compassionate as the low-income doctor I went to in the first place, who fed me your favorite line almost verbatim that I was perhaps merely just having a psychosomatic reaction to an unwanted pregnancy – that it was all in my pretty little head. That I just couldn’t deal with it.
I have never been in denial. I acknowledge every single bit of it – the good and the bad. Yes, the abortionist was by far the most compassionate person I encountered in just about the whole duration of my pregnancy. That is not a lie, and I won’t lie to obscure it – but I will work quite hard to change that fact for other women. It would be very easy to simply pull a TV-sweeps-week cop-out on myself and be like, “Oh, well, I miscarried! Back to regularly scheduled programming!” The truth is, it’s possible that I had not yet miscarried, and more importantly, that fact did not matter to me at the time. I have always been explicitly honest that had the pregnancy been healthy and viable, I would have strongly considered abortion anyway. What motivation would I have for lying about that?
I think I have been pretty explicitly honest at times – so much so that people expressed discomfort with it. And most of all with you, Jasper. I have given you straight answers to just about every question you’ve ever thrown at me. I don’t ask that you respect me. All I ask is that you not lie about me.
OK for serious, I am on my 10th 14-hour workday in a row, and stuff that is marginally my responsibility just hit the fan. I’ll be back later this evening but to be honest, at this point I’m probably pretty much done having this conversation anyway.
So, virtually zero data or statistical information then Carla. ‘Feeling’, ‘knowing’, ‘meeting’, ‘hearing’ are not evidential terms that tell us the rate or ratio of women who have had abortions having negative outcomes. But that’s ok, it’s the same in regard to women who have negative outcomes from not being able to access abortion.
cranium @ 5:11,
Oh come on. There’s plenty of research that’s been done regarding women and men who have been hurt by or regret their abortions. (Carla’s group collects testimonials from post-abortive women.) All you have to do is LOOK. Try Jills “archives”, “links” and “blogs” for starters.
You’re right Alexandra, you had a bad reaction of some sort and could not continue the pregnancy.
I stand corrected. Sorry about that…
I believe I explained to you already that I am not collecting data, cran. And if I were it wouldn’t mean a hill of beans to you. But keep pressing the point as though all of these organizations, foundations, support groups and recovery resources mean nothing. Or that what I and thousands like me do is not valid because I don’t quantify the women and men I help. 5 people came up to me after I spoke at my church. There. 5 women and men who regret their abortion experiences. 5. Five. Cinco.
I have fed you enough. Bah. Now I have to clean out the pens tonight. :(
Christy, I’m sorry for your loss.
I recently read a story about a woman who was told her baby was anencephalic. She decided she could not have an abortion although many people, including the priest at her church, told her they would understand if she did. She did not like the idea of having her son dismembered. She carried the baby to term, and he lived 45 minutes after birth. He was held by her, her husband, and children. They all talked to him, sang to him, and just loved him the short time he was with them. She had him stay with her that night in her hospital room. He was given a beautiful funeral service. She said it would have hurt more to have aborted him. She believed her son deserved to be loved and a part of the family although it was for such a short amount of time.
Cranium,
There is a wealth of data dealing with the post-traumatic stress induced by the experience of abortion. Dr Martha Shuping is a brilliant psychiatrist who practices in this field:
http://www.rachelnetwork.org/marthashupingmd.html
Contact her if you are genuinely interested in what’s out there. However, you cannot come back here for several weeks and comment to the contrary, as it will take that long AT A MINIMUM to plow through the data. I’ve been reading this material for years.
Wedge/Biggz,
You will find many of your posts are gone.
Dr. Gerard Nadal,
Thank you for the link. :)
Alexandra,
I know it matters not to you how things ended up. Abortion or miscarriage does not seem to be the issue for you at this time.
However, you carried a child. Your child lived and then your child died. You are a mom.
How do you know Ashli McCall?
Janet I am not disputing that there are men and women who are hurt by their abortion experiences or history. I just wonder to what extent it occurs. There does not appear to be any data relating to rates or percentages. Just like there isn’t any for people who wish they had terminated their pregnancy.
I’m not saying that what you do is not valid Carla, not at all. All I am saying is that the numbers that are coming out are not significant compared to the number of abortions performed. And like I said before, most people regret some decision they’ve made in their life.
That’s not what Dr. Brenda Major says Dr. Nadal. Rachel Network, really? Dr. Shuping is an absolute ‘darling’ of the anti-choice movement, I’ll continue to peruse unbiased studies thanks.
Studies from 1990 to present all dispute Dr. Shuping’s claims. Why would I contact her when there is an overwhelming number of reports and studies which refute her position.
All I am saying is that the numbers that are coming out are not significant compared to the number of abortions performed.
Which leads you to believe what exactly??
Find the right ratio and then??
My point is that we don’t stop parenthood because some parents are a bit mean, some are nasty and others are downright cruel. If the majority headed in that direction we might look at controlling or regulating it though.
So with abortion, it’s a matter of to what extent is there a seriously negative impact. I’ve seen no evidence that it is significant.
We all make decisions we regret later, doesn’t matter what it’s about.
“There does not appear to be any data relating to rates or percentages.”
“All I am saying is that the numbers that are coming out are not significant compared to the number of abortions performed.”
Cranium,
You are contradicting yourself.
I don’t regret switching colleges twice while seeking higher education. I regret dating losers in high school. I don’t regret being a stay at home mom. I regret not emailing a dear friend before he died.
It is MORE than regret that I feel about my abortion, cran. I paid to have my first child killed.
How do you know Ashli McCall?
I don’t really know her – I know of her. I talked with her for some time before I ever even found this site. Not at great length but enough to find her blog. I’m glad she has a book out now. It can be quite lonely to be accused of being melodramatic about simple morning sickness or whatever else people often say. I am stronger now, and better educated on such things, and wouldn’t take anyone’s crap if I were in the same position again, but at the time I really could have used someone (besides the wonderful Mr. Alexandra) telling me I wasn’t simply crazy or self-indulgent or weak or “unable to handle it.”
I know Ashli and her work. Hyperemisis Gravidarium? I am sure I misspelled that.
I’m sorry John but we will have to agree to disagree.
This man is in crisis and yes he’s not dealing with it well at all.
But to come at him from the point of religion is not going to get you anywhere.
Anyone who knows anything about missionary work KNOWS that you feed the body first and then work on the spirit.
This man is hurting and based on what he has been told he believes he’s doing the right thing. You have to meet a man where he is and not drag him to where you want him to be. The aborted baby picture deals with something in the present – the baby.
First things first.
“All I am saying is that the numbers that are coming out are not significant compared to the number of abortions performed. And like I said before, most people regret some decision they’ve made in their life.”
I don’t think we will ever truly know the number of women and men who regret involvement in abortion. But I’m betting that the actual rate is probably well over 75%. And it’s not something many women will likely admit to.
A priest I knew who came back to North America for a sabbatical, gave prolife talks. After each talk he heard confessions. He told me that he would be there for hours hearing the confessions of women who deeply regretted their abortions. Most NEVER said anything to anyone. Most THOUGHT every minute of every day about the abortion they had.
I believe THIS is likely the normal experience of a woman who has had an abortion.
To diminish this in any way, is insensitive and really does show a lack of understanding of the whole issue of abortion.
Not really Janet.
I meant the numbers that Carla was providing when I referred to ‘the numbers that are coming out are not significant’.
But there is no actual data relating to rates or percentages.
“75%”, really? Is that your guess? My guess is about 5% to 8%.
Angel,
I think you might miss my point. In the case of this man, religion may not reach him, but I don’t believe anything else will either. As I mentioned, actual research evidence most likely won’t reach his ears. It likely won’t hit until it’s too late to save the child. How do you intend to reach a man after he and his wife have already been counseled about this being the best way? Keep in mind, they may have been warned that someone might be about to attempt to dissuade them from the abortion. They’ve already built their emotional and intellectual walls. The distance between the parking lot and the front door most likely won’t be enough to dissuade them, unless someone meets them in between.
In other words, I’m not at all convinced that imagery of any kind makes as much difference as does a human being trying to speak with them.
Keep in mind, these don’t appear to have been sidewalk counselors, but pro-life protesters, trying to remind people in general of the virtue of life. I think it’s very difficult to make that case when you’re holding a picture of death. Thus, I think the Divine Mercy image or other religious symbology quite appropriate. It’s not aimed at appealing to him or her, but rather to others around and/or those who’re praying.
Then again, given what I’ve heard about the “clientele”, especially on the East Coast, there may be almost as many “religious” people visiting these places as any other. In that case, religious imagery might actually be one thing that DOES prick someone’s conscience.
Yep, Carla!
“Then again, given what I’ve heard about the “clientele”, especially on the East Coast, there may be almost as many “religious” people visiting these places as any other. In that case, religious imagery might actually be one thing that DOES prick someone’s conscience.”
John, I totally agree. A picture of Christ might prick someone’s conscience more than anything else. Especially if that person was taught as a child about Christ but then chose to live their life without Him.
It would be interesting to know if this dad believes in Christ.
I believe cran that the only number I provided you with is 5.
Here’s another- 5,000 declarations so far from Operation Outcry.
How on God’s green earth shall I enumerate for you how many women just might be calling for abortion recovery somewhere in this country today? How many are sitting in silence in their guilt and shame and not telling anyone? How many will be forced and coerced into an abortion they do not want today? How many will commit suicide today because of a past abortion?
And still it won’t matter in the least to you and you will continue to carry on about percentages and blah, blah, blah. As though if I quote a suitable number to you, you will have a change of heart about those hurt by abortion!!
Good day, sir.
“75%”, really? Is that your guess? My guess is about 5% to 8%.
Really are you that out of touch. Women are much more emotionally integrated than men. An action that goes against the very nature of our being – that is womanhood as abortion does, is not inconsequential.
Women aren’t whiners though. And there is still a great deal of stigma attached to abortion mainly because abortion involves the death of a baby. Most women know this intuitively. For many women, speaking out about their abortion might not be an option.
As for the pictures, if a dead baby doesn’t prick your conscience you likely aren’t going to be moved by a painting of Christ. Not saying that it won’t happen but that it’s unlikely.
If we remove your emotive language Carla, the fact is you cannot identify to what extent women and men are ‘hurt’ by abortion compared to the innumerable number of abortions everyone keeps telling me about. And as I keep saying, no-one can identify how many women and men are ‘hurt’ by being unable to access abortion, or deciding or being pressured not to have one. It does matter to me, that’s why I ask. If you wish to change my point of view, you need to provide substantiated, valid reasons. For you to simply refuse to provide any answers by saying they don’t matter to me is, in my opinion, a weak response.
angel, a painting of christ is no more ‘moving’ than the mona lisa. They are all beautiful works of art, but I don’t find any additional ‘value’ in religious iconography.
For many women, speaking out about their abortion might not be an option.
It’s a HUGE elephant in the room, even in churches. People don’t talk about it unless they come to you one-on-one, usually, and even then, they’re ashamed. I’ve had it happen to me, and Carla has, too. I know friends of mine who have never even admitted it to their own husbands. It’s makes some feel as shamed as being a victim of sexual abuse… it’s something they feel runs so deep, it hurts too much talk about it. But it surfaces in other ways.
“As for the pictures, if a dead baby doesn’t prick your conscience you likely aren’t going to be moved by a painting of Christ. Not saying that it won’t happen but that it’s unlikely”
You may have a point Angel but I do think some people are in such denial that they really believe those pics of murdered preborn humans are not real — they see us as the enemy and think we go to great lengths to cause them pain even to the point of faking pics. I’ve heard a proabort say that prolifers add fake body parts to hamburger. Some proaborts really think abortion is no different than removing a wart or clipping your toe nails (and we know some proaborts have convinced themselves the heart doesn’t beat until 24 weeks plus and women shed fertilized eggs every month).
But I’ve also known vocal proaborts who claim a strong belief in Christ so I see showing His picture as a plus. Especially the Divine Mercy picture.
Cranium sounds to me like he wants a percentage or numbers applied to emotional responses. I don’t even know what such ‘evidence’ would look like. Surely the widespread existence of organizations that deal with the aftermath of abortion is evidence enough of hurt.
As for those ‘hurt’ by not being able to access abortion, that is bordering on absurd for many reasons.
I have no great expectation of there being definitive numbers. My argument is that outside of the numerous tales of woe appearing here, is there much else? Therefore the ‘problem’ may well not be as significant as portrayed or appears, especially given the vast number of abortions performed according to this site.
“As for those ‘hurt’ by not being able to access abortion, that is bordering on absurd for many reasons.” – like what? How on earth would you have any idea. Like I said the other day, there are women who truly wish they didn’t have their children but to say so out loud would expose them to ‘Salem witch trials’ levels of condemnation.
Since I am for the most part the only post abortive mom who comments here then cran you could listen to me until the cows come home and still decide that abortion doesn’t hurt anyone. Because I can’t come up with the numbers and because I “emote.”
You have no idea what you are talking about and it is insane that I even TRY to explain abortion recovery to a man who does not care either way. Lack of numbers. Fine.
Know this. I am not going anywhere. I am not shutting up. I will never stop saying that abortion hurts women. I will never stop telling others that abortion nearly destroyed me and it killed my daughter. My abortion was the most horrifying experience of my life.
It is me, Carla and all of the other post abortive men and women that will bring abortion down. There are no two ways about that. We KNOW what abortion has done to us, we KNOW what abortion has done to our children and we will continue to fight the good fight in the face of those like yourself that deny the very hurt we have experienced.
If you want to change your own view cran you need to shut up and listen. Really listen.
Have you ever watched me tell my story?
Here ya go
http://outcrywisconsin.blogspot.com/2009/03/my-story-at-faith-community-church.html
‘…still decide that abortion doesn’t hurt anyone.’ – a complete misrepresentation of what I have said. If you want to argue, argue on what’s been said, not some made up self-serving version of what’s been said.
‘Because I can’t come up with the numbers…’ – neither can I for the other ‘side’, remember.
‘…and because I “emote.”’ – again, that is NOT what I said.
‘You have no idea what you are talking about and it is insane that I even TRY to explain abortion recovery to a man who does not care either way.’ – good grief!
‘I am not shutting up. I will never stop saying that abortion hurts women. I will never stop telling others that abortion nearly destroyed me…’ – I’m not asking you to. I’m not expecting you to. Did you actually read and comprehend what I was saying?
I have not denied your hurt, at all. You’ve got yourself all twisted up because I asked just how significant is the number of people such as yourself who are hurt, compared to the huge numbers of abortions which occur each and every day. That does not deny their existence.
I don’t want to change my view. I don’t need to change my view. Abortion is real. Abortion takes place. People will have abortions. It will never cease.
You will never bring abortion down. Ever. It will always take place.
Abortion is real. Abortion takes place. People will have abortions. I agree.
There will come a day when abortion will be no more.
I am not all twisted up. It is called righteous anger. It is called conviction. It is called driven.
It is enough for me to do the good work I did today to help women that are hurting. They turned to me today and I helped them. I listened to them. I understood the very real pain of their abortions. Why? Cause I’ve been there.
Good night cran.
“There will come a day when abortion will be no more” – an unrealistic statement of faith.
“It is called righteous anger. It is called conviction. It is called driven.” – fine. But respond to what’s actually been written rather than react to what you might think it is saying about YOU. At no stage did I deny that you or others have been ‘hurt’ by abortion.
I’m pleased that you are able to help others.
“there are women who truly wish they didn’t have their children but to say so out loud would expose them to ‘Salem witch trials’ levels of condemnation.”
That doesn’t make killing their children a ‘solution’ that, if unavailable, allows their ‘hurt’ to be projected as guilt onto those who secured its unavailability! You are totally clutching at straws here to try to level some kind of equivalence between the two responses, but really, a woman like that wouldn’t need access to abortion, she needs far more constructive help! And to top it all off, you end with an unsubstantiated and emotive speculation. Yes, your argument is absurd.
I find your response to be lacking in logical construct or relevance Mark. It also fails to actually address the points I was making.
Sorry if it was too difficult for you cranium, but the bottom line is this – your example is worthless as an argument for the availability of abortion. There are much better solutions for those situations.
That may be what you believe. Others don’t.
But my position is based upon the solid fact that life begins at conception and has no problem embracing any other science too. In contrast the pro-‘choice’ side regularly distorts and obfuscates, which is what you are doing here. But there are better solutions to the situation you give. Abortion isn’t one of them.
My argument is that outside of the numerous tales of woe appearing here, is there much else?
Have you looked? http://www.abortionconcern.org/stories/stories.php
http://www.fwhc.org/stories/story8.htm
http://www.christiananswers.net/life/stories-abortion.html
No doubt, there are more. Just Google.
Like I said the other day, there are women who truly wish they didn’t have their children but to say so out loud would expose them to ‘Salem witch trials’ levels of condemnation.
Or perhaps more likely they need psychological counseling to help them understand the root of those issues.
No Mark, I’m not obfuscating. People really do consider that abortion is a viable and worthy option. Doesn’t matter if life begins at conception, has its own dna, is a viable person after about 24 weeks or whatever. If women do not want to proceed with a pregnancy they will not do so. And they do not consider any of your other options ‘better’.
Yes Kel, I know they are out there. Still doesn’t demonstrate whether or not it is significant enough to warrant some of the claims that are made.
Some people will always consider that abortion would have been a better outcome. Psychology just might confirm that they can’t handle parenthood.
Cranium, by your statement, you willingly condone murder of innocents. You think it is OK to think it “worthy”. And that really is horrifying.
I was unplanned – my mother died recently and very shortly before her death she told me the story of how she felt when she found out about me. Overwhelmed, to put it mildly, having just emigrated to Australia from Germany with 4 children in tow. Strange land, foreign language, different climate, and now this.
But here I am, and this is why I fight – because views such as yours are deeply reprehensible to me.
I miss my mother terribly but I am forever grateful that despite growing up in Nazi Germany (she was 16 when the war ended) she was not poisoned by that experience and chose to live a sacrificial life for her children including me. Abortion is never ‘worthy’. That’s all I have to say.
OK Angel, you win.
Just had a conversation today with someone who fervently believes that legalized abortion has been a blessing for this country. Seems that I’m “ignorant” of the consequences of illegal abortion.
I get the distinct impression that the person in question has not been forced to handle the genocide in our midst. How sad.
I guess we’ll need some more of those signs, eh?
“there are women who truly wish they didn’t have their children but to say so out loud would expose them to ‘Salem witch trials’ levels of condemnation.”
There are women (and men!) who do verbalize that they they wish they had aborted their children — they usually say this to their children because they are cowards and bullies and they realize their children will continue to love them without condemnation.
If you realize telling a child you wished you had aborted them is a terribly cruel thing to say (and I hope you do), I don’t understand how you can rationalize legalized abortion. You don’t have to hit a child to abuse them, words hurt just as much.
Our country needs to send the message that we all are precious. Even if our parents never wanted us or loved us. Just because we know child abuse exists, doesn’t mean we have to accept it and be a part of it. Abortion is the ultimate child abuse. Abortion further reinforces the false idea that a child is only loved and wanted if their mother says they are loved and wanted. Bull crap! Men should be outraged about this!
You will never bring abortion down. Ever. It will always take place.
I will never bring rape, murder and theft down either. Doesn’t mean I should fight for legalizing rape, murder and theft.
Wow cran. Maybe you should post at PCG’s place occassionally. Sounds like you have a similar LOVE affair with abortion. But if you do, please remember to come back here and talk with us. (:
You will never bring abortion down. Ever. It will always take place.
I will never bring rape, murder and theft down either. Doesn’t mean I should fight for legalizing rape, murder and theft.
OH, but see, Praxedes, it’s just that, as cranium said on another thread, “It is factual that people are people and have different viewpoints, opinions, needs and motivations. And when it comes to abortion, it is people making the choices.” I mean, if a person is making the choice to steal or rape or abort, then obviously, society just needs to “come around” to their “enlightened” point of view which they received by means of godless evolution.
People really do consider that abortion is a viable and worthy option. Doesn’t matter if life begins at conception, has its own dna, is a viable person after about 24 weeks or whatever. If women do not want to proceed with a pregnancy they will not do so. And they do not consider any of your other options ‘better’.
And “some people” really do consider that rape, theft and murder are worthy options. It doesn’t matter to them that they’re harming other human beings. If they want to rape and steal, they’re going to rape and steal. They don’t consider the option of becoming productive members of society who give rather than take to be “better.”
Oh, but I know this is all pointless because apparently abortion is a completely amoral act to you. It has no consequences (hence your continued denial that women and men can feel any sort of “statistically significant” remorse about it). Forget the fact that, scientifically speaking, it kills another human being because someone with more power (someone meant to nurture and protect) gets to choose life or death for that weaker human being.
“There will come a day when abortion will be no more” – an unrealistic statement of faith.
LOL. You are hilarious!! :)
Abortion will end.
I actually have appreciated your thoughts on this thread. Wanted to let you know that your words inspire me even more to carry on, educate others on abortion recovery, reach out to those suffering and ask myself, “What more can I do?”
Thank you for spurring me on, cran.
(*deep sigh*)
Cranium, I don’t know whether you make comments about the supposed “illogic” of others just to exasperate me, or whether you genuinely don’t know how illogical your own comments are (and if you simply have an inflated idea of your own logical skills)… but I’m afraid you really don’t have a good idea what you’re talking about. You have this penchant for running in tight, little conversational circles, never re-examining your own claims (to say nothing of your starting assumptions), and varying your relentlessly illogical claims just enough to avoid sounding completely like the broken record that you’ve come to be. In short: so long as you take this attitude, discussion with you is POINTLESS.
I, of all people, know the natural and good urge to reason with someone who doesn’t know the truth about this-or-that; but when someone abuses that urge (whether deliberately, or by sheer reflex) by being what I call “the three I’s”…utterly illogical, intractable and inflammatory… then that someone has embraced troll-dom.
If you want people to treat you as anything other than an exasperation, an annoyance, and a sophomoric attention-addict, then try using a blend of civility and true logic.
Paladin 10:48 – Where do I sign up for your fan club? :D
Look under “mutual admiration society”… ;) (I.e. same place I’d sign up for yours!)
I agree that the prolifers could have responded much better, but likely they’ve never encountered a case of abortion for fetal indications. We need to reach all sidewalk counselors with information on how to address these cases, like “I realize you love your wife, I realize you’re crushed that you got this terrible diagnosis for your baby. Can you come out and let us see if we can find a better solution for you than what this place has to offer? All they offer is to pull your living baby apart with forceps. Is that what you REALLY want? Or was it just the only thing your doctor could think of?”
The old ‘rape and murder’ canard. Groan. Face facts, virtually everyone feels, thinks and agrees that rape and murder are wrong. Abortion is not seen in the same light. Despite your attempted comparison it just doesn’t filter in peoples minds in the same way. When will you realize that people just don’t construct that link.
“Sounds like you have a similar LOVE affair with abortion” – cheap, shallow and untrue.
No Carla, it won’t end. Glad to help your motivation. :-)
Paladin, abortion takes place. Always has. Has been legalized more and more as time goes by. Why do you think that is? What makes people accept it? ‘Lack of knowledge’ is not why, people know about fetal development, what constitutes ‘life’ etc. etc. People know the ‘truth’. Yet they still have abortions. I’ve not seen any reasons why outside of the factors I have raised.
People don’t make decisions based on pure logic, we are human.
I do live under a very nice bridge though. Good enough that I’m proud to have visitors. ;-)
Face facts, virtually everyone feels, thinks and agrees that rape and murder are wrong. Abortion is not seen in the same light.
Uh, it was before it became legalized.
Nice bridge but too bad not much Light gets under it.
I disagree Praxedes, abortion was so common that people pushed for its legalization. They did so because they did not see it as anywhere near the same category as rape or murder.
Well I’ve got a nice skylight, and a solar tube, but I can also generate my own ‘light’. :-)
“When will you realize that people just don’t construct that link.”
I notice that you actually don’t face up to validity of the comparison, just disparage it on the basis of people’s ‘filtering’. That says a great deal.
I guess in your mind if someone walks outside on a clear sunny day they can declare the sky green and because of their ‘filtering’ it makes it so. I prefer facts not such obvious distortions.
Apparently you think your filtering trumps the obvious fact that abortion kills a living human being. As someone has said, “Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.” I sure hope you never meet someone that operates on the same level of moral relativism regarding your life.
I disagree Praxedes, abortion was so common that people pushed for its legalization.
Those “people” pushing for its legalization were those who stood to make profit from it. Dr. Bernard Nathanson, a former abortionist (and a founder of NARAL, I believe?) admits to falsifying the numbers of illegal abortions taking place. He and his friends were key in getting it legalized. Oh, and Norma McCorvey was used as an unwitting pawn by the same people as well, in Roe v. Wade.
FYI, Nathanson and McCorvey are now both pro-life.
I think the man was right to speak his mind to those women. If they really cared they’d spend more time worrying all the truly living children that aren’t getting taken care of rather than bullying other women while they are so clearly down.
And before you start taking about fetuses being alive, even the bible states that life and personhood being with “breath.”
Genesis 2:7 “…breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being.”
The Hebrew word for human being or living soul is nephesh, which is also the word for “breathing.” Nephesh occurs over 700 times in the Bible as the identifying factor in human life. Obviously fetuses do not breathe and therefore do not, by the Bible’s standards, possess life and cannot be considered a living being. Here is another verse which supports this conclusion.
God says, “Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live.”
– Ezekiel 37:5
Protesting outside of these places only makes a very horrible situation that much worse.
“I think the man was right to speak his mind to those women.”
And the women have a right to protest the killing of innocent humans.
cran, was abortion as common before it was legalized as it is now?
TheSoulQuake wrote:
I think the man was right to speak his mind to those women.
You may have heard the aphorism: “To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it.” (G.K. Chesterton, ‘A Short History of England’, Ch.10) There’s the small matter of him choosing to have his child murdered (which is most certainly not “right”) which affects the matter. If you mean that his angry confrontation was *understandable* (in the sense of his actions being easy to trace from his motives), then yes; if you mean that he was somehow “right” in defending his choice to have his child killed, then no.
If they really cared they’d spend more time worrying all the truly living children that aren’t getting taken care of rather than bullying other women while they are so clearly down.
If you direct that comment at the Planned Parenthood workers and abortionists, it’d be very true. Otherwise, it makes no sense at all.
And before you start taking about fetuses being alive, even the bible states that life and personhood being with “breath.” Genesis 2:7 “…breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being.” The Hebrew word for human being or living soul is nephesh, which is also the word for “breathing.” Nephesh occurs over 700 times in the Bible as the identifying factor in human life. Obviously fetuses do not breathe and therefore do not, by the Bible’s standards, possess life and cannot be considered a living being. Here is another verse which supports this conclusion. God says, “Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live.”
– Ezekiel 37:5
(*sigh*) Aside from your apparent lack of knowledge of biology: would it be asking too much for you to read the ENTIRE Bible, rather than cherry-pick phrases which seem convenient to your cause? Or perhaps you think that a dead infant (St. John the Baptist) leaped for joy in his mother’s womb at the Blessed Virgin Mary’s greeting? (Luke 1:44) Have some sense.
Protesting outside of these places only makes a very horrible situation that much worse.
I can only wonder at your reasoning for that statement. Would you have said the same to an abolitionist who was protesting a slave auction?
Cranium:
Go back and re-read my previous comment. If I see signs of enduring change in you, I’ll be happy to chat with you. Otherwise, no; life is too short to argue with trolls and run in neurotic circles.
Oh SoulQuake…. familiar with the verse “When I formed you in the womb I knew you?” in Jeremiah? You’re a complete buffoon. I’ve been pregnant honey. My son was most definitely alive. God says whatsoever you do to the least among us you do to Him so you better be very afraid.
The fetus is not alive?? Then how, pray tell, did the ultrasound tech measure my 6 week old embryonic daughter’s heart rate at my very first ultrasound years ago? Has something changed since then?
Tell me, if a sperm and egg are living cells (which they are), then how could they unite and somehow create a non-living human being? If the fetus is not alive, then how does it respond to stimuli in-utero? How is it that little Samuel Armas reached out of the uterus to grasp the finger of his surgeon before he was born? If the fetus is not alive, then what is it?
Twisting Scripture in order to promote the continued murder of innocent human beings is appalling.
A couple of comments worth repeating:
Kel:
“The fact that this man was outside yelling at the pro-lifers while his wife was inside, without his support, going through an incredibly painful experience, is unsettling. I, too, wonder why they didn’t seek actual medical care at a hospital rather than a chop shop.”
John:
“If anything shocks me about this video and the responses to it, it’s this:
Several people seem wholly convinced that the pro-lifers handled this poorly and that they should’ve responded differently to this man.
Frankly, I find that assertion outrageous!
Let’s make this simple: This guy was ticked and wanted to pick a fight. He didn’t care about the moral consequences, but rather wished to make someone feel bad because he didn’t wish to be a responsible parent. Period.”
While watching the video I was thinking: What a big man–going over there to dump on the pro-lifers (both women) accusing them of yelling at his wife. That took a lot of courage! I think the women handled it as best they could–they did not respond in kind to his yelling, and certainly he was not there for an intellectual give and take. They probably should have ignored him except that because they were compassionate towards his loss they tried to comfort him (unsucessfully–couldn’t get a word in edgewise during his rant).
It seems he found an excuse (finally) to go and confront those low life pro-lifers that have upset and angered him time and again with their “pictures of bloody fetuses” and other protests. We have seen this unruly behavior many times from angry anti-pro-lifers.
I’m probably way late to the conversation (per usual! I don’t come here very often) but I have to disagree with some of the comments here. Having been in this situation, I actually think the man was wrong to come outside and harass the pro-life people- his hurt doesn’t justify that. My husband was hurting too, but he managed not to yell at people.
That being said, prenatal hospice may be a wonderful option for some, but for me it would have been a nightmare. For crying out loud, the 5 weeks I carried him knowing he was going to die were a nightmare. Another 9-13? Would have been even worse. Yes, I ended my pregnancy early because my son was going to die when he was born- there were no ifs ands or buts about it- but he did not come out of me in pieces, he was not dismembered, he was not put into cardiac arrest and he surely was not suctioned out of me. He was delivered, cleaned up by the most compassionate nurses I have ever met and handed to me by the doctor who not only delivered his siblings, but who had stayed by my side in a rocking chair for the duration of my labor, comforting my husband and watching over me as I was fairly drugged due to the physical pain. I held my son in my arms and held his finger and kissed his head and talked to him and it was me who held him when he died. I know people here think what I did was murder and I respect that opinion, but that procedure truly saved me at a time when I didn’t know what else to do. I was losing weight, I couldn’t take care of my daughter, I was swelling, my blood pressure was skyrocketing, I wasn’t eating, all I could think about was the fact that the child I was carrying was going to die, that he was sick, that the lack of amniotic fluid made my body an unsafe place for him. When people in public commented on my pregnancy, I wanted to hit them or scream at them for making me hurt, for making me think about the baby that was going to die, but I didn’t. I answered their questions and then I went to my car and I sobbed as my 14 month old wiped my eyes or tried to hug me and make me feel better. That wasn’t the mother she deserved. Neither was the mother who was living on sleeping pills and anti-depressants. And quite frankly, yeah losing my son hurt. It hurt a lot. But the choice to let him go three months early? I’ve never regretted it and neither has my husband. No, we didn’t have him buried, we had him cremated… but we keep his ashes in a soft teddy bear urn that will be buried with whichever one of us is buried last. We have pictures of him, we have the hat he wore, the blankets he was wrapped in, his footprints, the measuring tape they used to measure him. In fact, everything we would have if I had carried to term. The biggest difference was that I would have needed a c-section had I carried to term due to lack of amniotic fluid (according to the perinatal specialist I saw) and I was able to deliver him naturally due to his size, so I was able to resume my “normal” activities a lot earlier. In addition, I was spared the pain of people asking me about my pregnancy and I was able to start moving forward and start healing. I was able to conceive my son, who will never replace his brother, but who brought joy and hope into our lives at a time when we thought that would never happen again. If I had carried my first son to term, I wouldn’t have the beautiful baby boy (well, beautiful four year old boy!) that I have now. The situation itself will always hurt- saying goodbye to the child you loved and wanted and hoped for is horrible- but the choices that we made were the best for us (and yes, I believe our son is included) in that situation. If I were to find out the child I am carrying now had the same condition, I would make the exact same choice.
Oh, and I think it’s terrible to insinuate that someone who ends a pregnancy because their child is going to die hates people with disabilities. The reason we didn’t find out my son was going to die until I was 22 weeks pregnant? I never had the early tests to find out about other disabilities because aborting a child with down syndrome or spina bifida or any other non-fatal disability never crossed my mind. This is what I do for a living- I take care of people with disabilities. I help parents who are in crisis due to their children’s behavior, I provide respite to parents of children with disabilities who need a break but need a higher level of skill than your average high schooler has. I have a sister and a nephew with autism and my son is named after my closest friend in the entire world who died after a 48 year fight with cystic fibrosis. I don’t hate people with disabilities and if my son had had a chance, even a 1% chance that he was going to live, he would have been given that chance. He did not. He had no kidneys, a hole in his heart, underdeveloped lungs, no anal opening, no penis, his leg was twisted backward, he had rocker bottom feet, his stomach cavity was open so that his internal organs were outside of his body (which shockingly, was actually the treatable part of his condition), and fluid on his brain.
Hi Julie, I know many have said this to you before but I hope you will realize that your situation was totally different. If your life was in danger by high blood-pressure and other health complications and they delivered him early, to me that is not an abortion. The intent was not to kill your son which is obvious because you didn’t have poison injected into his heart etc… You delivered him early because you had to… your health was in jeopardy. You held him and loved him and all he ever knew in this world was love. Who can condemn you for that?
I may have mentioned on this thread, but earlier this year my sister’s childhood friend had a little boy who had many defects and her health was also at risk. I don’t remember if they induced early or if nature started it on its own but she delivered at 28 weeks and her family came and they all held him and loved him for the hour he lived. He died in his mother’s arms just as your son did. That is a precious precious thing. Those two little boys knew love.
I wish you peace and healing. I cannot and don’t want to imagine a pain like what you felt, having to say goodbye to your child. God bless you.
I think the man was right to speak his mind to those women. If they really cared they’d spend more time worrying all the truly living children that aren’t getting taken care of rather than bullying other women while they are so clearly down.
They are already worrying about living children, obviously. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be trying to prevent the murder of these children.
How on earth were they “bullying” other women? By showing them the truth? By trying to help them avoid making a terrible mistake they can never take back?
And before you start taking about fetuses being alive, even the bible states that life and personhood being with “breath.”
That’s not going to mean much to an atheist/agnostic. Have you ever read an embryology textbook? If not, I would suggest that you do so.