Gingrich backpedals: Life begins at fertilization
Yesterday the Gingrich campaign sent further clarification to pro-life bloggers and reporters (not me, I’m now off their dance card; such is the heartbreak of being bad cop) that when he clarified over the weekend he believes “human life begins at conception,” he meant “at the moment of fertilization.”
Some may wonder why this distinction was necessary. It was necessary because the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists defines conception as “the implantation of a fertilized ovum,” i.e., implantation. Pro-lifers wanted to make sure Newt wasn’t pulling a fast one to square his interview with ABC’s Jake Tapper.
Paul Pauker at LiveAction.org got even more useful information:
This distinction is crucial. Gingrich has said he supports Congress enacting pro-life legislation under the 14th Amendment, including legislation that would define personhood as beginning at conception.
When asked if Gingrich will be supporting this definition of conception (fertilization not implantation) in such legislation, DeSantis said: “Yes.”
Newt has come a long way in five days – from when he told Tapper life begins at “implantation and successful implantation.”
Given that only two weeks before that, as Paul wrote, Gingrich said he would support legislation defining personhood as commencing at conception, it is impossible to fathom what in the world he was thinking when he spoke with Tapper.
Since the Gingrich campaign has decided to step over the blip and not explain it, I await the day Tapper or another astute reporter gets a chance to ask him.
Takeaways
There were several positives from this dust-up:
- That this was even a flap to begin with, and that a presidential campaign thought it important enough to contact pro-life online journalists for damage control, is forward progress.
- Other presidential campaigns have certainly been watching and taking notes.
- Gingrich is now on record. This was a teachable moment for him, particularly in regard to his new Catholic faith. I’m glad pro-life Catholics like Robert George have his ear.
- This controversy has kept the important first week of human life in the spotlight, the 5-9 days before a new baby implants in the wall of his or her mother’s uterus, or while s/he is stuck helplessly in frozen animation in some IVF clinic…
- … or when a birth control pill or IUD may abort the baby before s/he can implant, as a blogger at liberal ThinkProgress.org pointed out…
Although GOP presidential frontrunner Newt Gingrich previously took the view that “personhood begins at conception,” on Friday, Gingrich told ABC’s Jake Tapper that life begins at the “successful implantation” of a fertilized egg in a woman’s uterus. This position would effectively lead to a ban on all abortions while still maintaining women’s access to most forms of birth control. Unfortunately for Gingrich, however, this position proved insufficiently radical to his anti-choice base, and he flipped back to an even more right-wing stance just one day later….
Gingrich’s current stance closely maps the views of radical “personhood” advocates who don’t just want to ban abortion, but who also intend to ban many common forms of contraception. Because birth control bills and IUDs prevent fertilized eggs from implanting, Gingrich’s Friday position suggested that he wanted to preserve women’s right to use these forms of contraception. His sudden switch, however, appears to abandon this view in favor of the much more radical belief that women should not be allowed to use the pill.
I don’t expect Newt is to the point of saying abortifacient contraceptives should be banned, but this all certainly gives him food for thought.
Do you believe the American people would accept legislation banning the Pill and IUDs? These are two of the most effective contraceptive methods.
Are there equally or more effective contraceptives that do NOT prevent fertilized eggs from implanting?
There is the possibility that if the Pill and IUD are banned, the number of unwanted (by the female who gets pregnant) pregnancies could increase. It could increase a great deal. Thus, there is the ironic possibility that this could lead to MORE surgical abortions which nobody wants.
Of course, we could demand greater funding for research into more effective contraceptive methods that prevent fertilization but not implantation. I would support that.
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Ha ha ha… the pill is not that effective Denise. I have a 5 year old who is proof of that. The problem with the pill and the IUD is that they can (and the IUD works by primarily doing this) prevent the newly conceived human from implanting.
I don’t see the pill being outlawed now especially when there are so many pro-lifers ignorant of how it works. I took the pill for several years never dreaming that me, a pro-life woman, could be aborting my newly conceived babies. That breaks my heart to this day.
So I tell my friends who claim to be pro-life how the pill and IUD work. Some thank me for telling them, others are resistant and don’t want to hear it. But all I can do is tell them.
I personally will not vote for Newt. He is not pro-life. He is just your typical “I’ll tell you what you wanna hear” politician.
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It is clear that the pill and IUDs do, at times, work as abortifacients. A pro-life person would not use them. Abstinence outside of marriage, and NFP to space births (for a serious reason) within marriage, is the logical pro-life position. It is also the Catholic position.
Jill, do you agree?
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I think all these admissions about the Pill being a potential abortifacient is pretty eye-opening. In their haste to condemn Newt for his comments, they’ve admitted what we’ve been saying all along – the Pill can kill preborn human life.
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Mark S says:
December 6, 2011 at 10:27 am
It is clear that the pill and IUDs do, at times, work as abortifacients. A pro-life person would not use them. Abstinence outside of marriage, and NFP to space births (for a serious reason) within marriage, is the logical pro-life position. It is also the Catholic position.
(Denise) OK. In the world I work for, there will be much less reason for contraception. People will relate to each other primarily on non-sexual bases. However, in the current real world that we all live in, we know that the vast majority of people will engage in heterosexual activity even if they have no desire for children. Thus, it is vital to develop effective contraceptives that have no abortifacient qualities.
Should we demand a great deal of funding for research into such contraceptives? It’s not a matter of convenience. It’s a matter of life and death.
We just don’t live in a world in which the only people engaging in a certain type of sex are those who are married to each other or in which only married people willing to become parents have that sort of sex with each other.
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Newt’s willingness to embrace the moment of fertilization as the beginning of human life is for me an indication of the truthfulness of his conversion and of his new outlook on life issues and politics. If Newt was concerned simply about getting elected he would not have made this clarification. Those on the extreme left, and the sellers of contraceptives, will not forgive him for this statement. If he flips or flops on life issues again he is toast, and I am sure he knows it. Really, I think he has run out of room to flip or flop again, he has exhausted all reasonable options. This admission, this willingness to protect the smallest human beings, was a huge political statement. It brought light where there was once darkness. Perhaps JPII did rub-off on him!!!!
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People can change.
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Ha ha ha… the pill is not that effective Denise. I have a 5 year old who is proof of that. The problem with the pill and the IUD is that they can (and the IUD works by primarily doing this) prevent the newly conceived human from implanting.
Ok. So you guys can have it both ways: “the pill is totally not effective, and I know sooo many people who were born even though their moms were on the pill” in one breath, “but the pill prevents implantation!!!!!11!!!1!!” in the other. This is some funny sh!t.
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As has been pointed out already, NFP prevents fertilization but does not interfere with implantation should fertilization occur. It is also >99% effective. The best news is that the divorce rate among married couples who practice NFP is extremely low – one study puts it at <1%! Obviously, abstinence also works without being abortifacient. And if you really must use some form of artificial birth control, then barrier methods also rely solely on the prevention of fertilization. That includes condoms and diaphragms. We do not need a bunch of research to find non-abortifacient methods. They already exist. Finally, I must say that easy access to birth control does not ensure a low incidence of unplanned pregnancy, abortion, single parent homes, child abuse or any of society’s ills any more than abortion does. That is a fallacy perpetuated by the culture of death. Look at the statistics and how the big push for access over the last decades has failed to make things better.
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It doesn’t matter what this guy says, it matters what he does. We know he is willing to compromise away the life issues significantly. We also know he is an advocate of big government.
Would I choose Newt over Obama. Probably, if I were stuck with that choice. At least he wouldn’t shut down all of the pro life health care facilities and CPCs.
It would be nice to have a real pro-lifer to support.
News we could do without……. the FDA wants to bring Plan B out on the shelves with the condoms. This is FAR more important than addressing the severe shortages of vital life saving drugs used in hospitals and cancer treatment centers.
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“Ok. So you guys can have it both ways: “the pill is totally not effective, and I know sooo many people who were born even though their moms were on the pill” in one breath, “but the pill prevents implantation!!!!!11!!!1!!” in the other. This is some funny sh!t.”
Xalisae , it is not “funny sh!t”, it is called life!!!
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Tyler, if you guys can’t see how contradictory you’re being and how irrational it looks from my POV, that’s your problem. I’m going to continue laughing while I watch you all shoot yourselves in the feet like in Mississippi. Hopefully, I’ll be able to be a loud enough voice in my state next year as to prevent our Personhood legislation from meeting the same fate due to the anti-contraception/anti-IVF nonsense being peddled in Mississippi.
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X – just to be sure we are speaking about facts, the following was taken from the Clinical Pharmacology section of the Ortho-Novum (one of the most popular brands of combined oral contraceptives, the most common type of hormonal birth control).
“Combined oral contraceptives act by suppression of gonadotropins. Although the primary mechanism of this action is inhibition of ovulation, other alterations include changes in the cervical mucus (which increase the difficulty of sperm entry into the uterus) and the endometrium (which reduce the likelihood of implantation).”
So the prevention of implantation is not the primary mechanism, but it is a well-known and freely admitted mechanism in the eyes of the manufacturer.
Now, regarding the ineffectiveness of contraceptives, the following was taken from the Guttmacher “Facts on Induced Abortion in the US.”
“Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant.”
And from the Guttmacher “Facts on Contraceptive Use in the US.”
Top 2 BC methods excluding sterilization – the pill and condoms. Typical use failure rate for the pill 8.7%. Typical failure rate for the condom 17.4%.
So, in fact, it is “both ways.” The most common forms of birth control have very high failure rates in typical use. And hormonal contraceptives can prevent implantation when fertilization occurs.
The facts are what they are. Draw your own conclusions.
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The progestin-only Pill (mini-Pill)
This version of the pill contains only one hormone, a progestin. It works in a different way from the combined pill, mainly by thickening the mucus at the entrance to the womb, which makes it difficult for sperm to get through. With certain brands of progestin-only pill it may also prevent ovulation in some women.
there are around 30 varieties of pill available today, and each of them is slightly different.
What does the pill contain?
There are two main types of pill. The pill can contain two types of hormone – an estrogen and a progestin and some pills contain progestin only. When you become pregnant the body produces these hormones naturally, to stop you producing any more eggs. The combined pill mimics this action, so that even though you are not pregnant, ovulation is prevented. It also thickens the mucus in the cervix, which makes it difficult for sperm to get through. The progestin only pill works by thickening the mucus at the entrance to the womb. In some women it may also prevent ovulation.
Information from Your-Life.com
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Ok. So you guys can have it both ways: “the pill is totally not effective, and I know sooo many people who were born even though their moms were on the pill” in one breath, “but the pill prevents implantation!!!!!11!!!1!!” in the other. This is some funny sh!t.
X, the package inserts on the Pill actually state that it can prevent implantation.
I think the point is that it CAN prevent it. It may not always prevent it. (Like Jurassic Park, life finds a way, I guess… :D). And it’s possible that some other facts are in play when individuals we know conceive while on the Pill. They could be taking meds that interfere or a host of any other unknown factors.
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Pamela – that information is not complete. If you want the complete unvarnished truth, read the medical details on the patient information sheets produced and published by the drug makers themselves under guidelines from the FDA. Medical studies published in medical journals is another place to find unvarnished truth. Then you will read plain and simple with no agenda-based editing what they do. Here are a couple more bits of information regarding the prevention of implantation by hormonal contraceptives.
“another contraceptive mechanism of COCs acts to prevent fertilization” – COC=combined oral contraceptive
“many women taking the mini-pill will continue to ovulate every month (about half), and in these cases changes to the lining of the uterus will prevent the implantation of an embryo.” mini-pill=progestin-only
“Soon after the first injection of DMPA, the endometrium starts becoming thin and underdeveloped. Under these circumstances, DMPA could, theoretically, inhibit implantation.” DMPA=injectable hormonal contraceptive
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Preceding the 2008 presidential election, Mr. Gingrich’s sincerity in his socially conservative comments came into question. In 2007 NBC’s Andrea Mitchell said, “Gingrich is talking about repenting about his past infidelity to test the reaction of Christian conservatives, whose support would be crucial if he does run for president.” (Olasky, Marvin, ”Mr. Right, Mr. Wrong”, World Magazine, Apr 14 2007, p. 14)
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Mark S., actually I do have a problem with couples who use NFP as a form of natural contraception.
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Yes. They say “in some women” and “sometimes, under certain circumstances”, and things like that. The primary mechanism is not that intent. Nor is drinking coffee, exercising, maintaining a high-stress job, overeating, etc. I’m afraid this is where we cross the line from trying to save lives to just trying to mandate other peoples’ bedroom habits, and this is where I am sorry to say we part ways.
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My position is that if someone wants to use the Pill or IUD, that is their business, but I believe women should be fully informed before they begin using it as to its function and possible abortifacient effects.
The reason I stopped using the Pill years ago after using it for 2 years is because I decided my taking a pill to suppress my natural reproductive cycle and brain chemistry was not in my best interest. This was before I knew of any potentially abortifacient functions.
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Actress Ali MacGraw was on the Pill when she got pregnant. Abortion was illegal but, like all-too-many girls and women, she had one anyway.
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My position is that if someone wants to use the Pill or IUD, that is their business, but I believe should be fully informed before they begin using it as to its function and possible abortifacient effects.
Me too! Fancy that, we have something in common. :D
Now can you please tell the other PLer’s to stop alluding to Personhood measures banning contraceptives?
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Kel – so you think as long as someone knows they are killing (or may be killing, or in some women they are killing) a unique human being, it is OK once they know the facts? How is that any different from “I am personally opposed to killing babies in the womb (i.e. procured abortion), but it is OK if someone else wants to do it, as long as they know they are killing a unique human being”? I want to be respectful, but are you serious? I completely understand how this issue makes it much more difficult for us to gain broad support and how it may be much more inconvenient for us. But we sound like the Pro-Aborts trying to rationalize arbitrary points in the development of the baby when it may or may not be OK to kill him/her. Before/after birth is no different than before/after viability is no different than before/after implantation. They are all different points in the continuum of development. At the moment of fertilization, a new human life is created. Period. At that point, the new life inherits the right to life simply because of its human-ness. And while I find it terribly inconvenient, and it makes me admit my guilt over many years of contracepting, the fact is what it is, and the truth is the truth. Any rationalization that some other point is when the baby matters is only different from the Pro-Abort argument in the point it picks, but not in principle.
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Sorry – I hadn’t been following the conversation until today – been out of town and swamped. :D
Didn’t read the comments re: personhood and contraceptives.
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Jill Stanek, I agree that NFP should not be used for selfish reasons with a ‘contraceptive mentality’, but with a serious reason.
NFP is not a contraceptive. It is not an artificial barrier that distorts the nature of the marital act and stops the flow of life. It is merely choosing when to be intimate. It is compatible with the covenant of marriage.
Besides all that, what I really wanted to know is your view on the use of contraceptives that are not abortifacients.
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Kel – so you think as long as someone knows they are killing (or may be killing, or in some women they are killing) a unique human being, it is OK once they know the facts?
No, I don’t think it’s “ok” or good. But until there is concrete proof that it is abortifacient (and there isn’t, at this point), I don’t think the Pill should be outlawed. I guess I should backtrack, though, and say that if the IUD is conclusively abortifacient (I know there are different kinds, so I’m not sure about the functions of all of them), then I am firmly opposed to the IUD.
How is that any different from “I am personally opposed to killing babies in the womb (i.e. procured abortion), but it is OK if someone else wants to do it, as long as they know they are killing a unique human being”?
Because they don’t know. No one does. There is a slim (VERY slim) chance that this could happen, according to the manufacturers, but there are no tests that have proven this. I sat in on a seminar on this, also, and are you aware that the endometrium thickens substantially due to a demonstrable change in hormones at fertilization? There is no concrete proof that the Pill IS abortifacient – just that it can be.
I am opposed to the Pill because of the harm it definitively does to women’s bodies, and I feel they should be told about what it does. I do not feel that it is good for women whatsoever. When I was on it, no one told me, including my doctor, how it worked. It was only when I decided to go off it that I questioned my doctor and she finally spelled out how it worked (suppressing ovulation in the pituitary gland). That cinched it for me.
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My position is that if someone wants to use the Pill or IUD, that is their business, but I believe should be fully informed before they begin using it as to its function and possible abortifacient effects.
Dudes, I wanna agree with that, but knowing that many of these BC’s cause abortion I can’t. Otherwise we would be saying,
“My position is that if someone wants to have an abortion, that is their business, but I believe should be fully informed before they have one.”
Wouldn’t that be considered “pro-choice”? And if we really are ok with that position, shouldn’t we just concentrate on side-effects and “informed consent” instead of actually trying to save any lives? After all it’s their choice, we don’t wanna interfere in their bedroom, run their personal lives, rosaries and ovaries and all that….
Seriously tho, if we really want to save human lives, does it make sense to be choosy about HOW they are killed? Does it make logical sense to say, “I’m totally against abortion when it’s RU486, or surgical, but if it’s Yaz or something like that, they can just die or not. I mean, Schrödinger’s cat and all that.”
Come on! Google it. If your first reaction to this is not, “Don’t even put the cat in the box, what’s wrong with you?!” and is instead, “Go ahead, it’s none of my business. We don’t even know if it will die anyway.” then you’re pro-abortion and should head on over to Huffington.
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X, it is highly hypocritical to be against abortion but okay with “maybe” killing some babies at earlier stages via the pill. The point is that the IUD works by inflaming the lining of the uterus (look at Mirena’s website… they admit it works this way) and thus preventing a newly conceived human from implanting in his mother’s womb. The pill does not ALWAYS work this way. My son is proof of that. I was not on any medication while taking Yaz and took it each day with my breakfast. I never missed a dose and yet I ovulated and happened to get pregnant. I am so thankful the pill failed to thin the lining of my uterus enough to prevent my son from implanting.
However, what if it had? My son would have been murdered! Because when you ingest the pill with the intent of allowing the pill to prevent pregnancy you are succumbing to ALL of its mechanisms for doing so. And one of those mechanisms is thinning the lining of the uterus to make implantation extremely difficult for the trophoblast.
The fact is that something like 75% of newly conceived humans will fail to implant in their mother’s wombs (thats the figure I remember). There can be a myriad of reasons for this. Some in our control (the pill) and some out of our control (what you listed). Because some humans will fail to implant that makes it okay to intentionally prevent others from implanting if we’re not ready for more children?
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Randy Alcorn wrote a great book on this. The pill can cause abortions. It HAS caused miscarriages (i personally know a lady). Christian Hippie, great post, btw.
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Dudes, I wanna agree with that, but knowing that many of these BC’s cause abortion I can’t. Otherwise we would be saying,
“My position is that if someone wants to have an abortion, that is their business, but I believe should be fully informed before they have one.”
Wouldn’t that be considered “pro-choice”?
No, because we do not KNOW that the Pill causes abortion. (Sydney, thanks for the info on the hormonal IUD. If it functions as you say, by inflaming the uterine lining, then I am opposed to that, for sure – though I’m opposed to the Pill as well, just for different reasons.) An abortion takes place when the woman is definitively pregnant.
I am saying that until we have unadulterated proof that the Pill actually does prevent implantation (which we don’t, and we have an awful lot of Pill babies to prove otherwise), I don’t feel the Pill should be made illegal. Inadvisable, yes, but not illegal.
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I just found this, here: http://prolifephysicians.org/abortifacient.htm
A second reason that pro-life physicians may not hold the position that oral contraceptives cause abortions is that they are unconvinced by the evidence. There is ample data to support the first two method of actions of OCs mentioned above. But the third proposed method of action, the so-called “hostile endometrium theory”, has little direct evidence to support it. Drug manufacturers have heralded it from the beginning without proof, and it has been echoed by two generations of investigators without verification. There is indirect evidence that the OC produces a thinner, less glandular, less vascular lining, and there is direct evidence from the field of in vitro fertilization that a thinner, less glandular, less vascular lining is less likely to allow the attachment of the new human being when it enters the uterus. However, when a woman taking OCs does ovulate, the corpus luteum (the ovarian follicle turns into the corpus luteum after ovulation) produces ten to twenty times the levels of both estrogen and progesterone seen in a non-non-ovulatory pill cycle. This results in the growth of stroma, blood vessels, glands, and glandular secretions to help prepare the lining for implantation. If there is no conception after ovulation, the corpus luteum ceases to function about two weeks after ovulation and menses follows. However, if conception occurs following ovulation, the embryo releases the human chorionic gonadotropin hormone (HCG), which stimulates the corpus luteum to continue its function until the placenta takes over hormone production two months later.
The proponents of the “hostile endometrium theory” argue that OCs are abortifacient based upon the third mechanism of action. The medical literature clearly supports the claim that the uterus becomes thinner and less glandular as a result of the OCs, however, the medical literature comes to this conclusion from non-ovulatory pill cycles. It is assumed that this finding in non-ovulatory pill cycles would prevent implantation of the embryo conceived in an ovulatory pill cycle, but this presumption is false. If a woman on OCs ovulates and conceives, everything changes: through the HCG’s affect on the corpus luteum, and the corpus luteum’s release of high levels of estrogen and progesterone, the uterus is able to nourish its new guest very well.
It is noteworthy that in a normal menstrual cycle, on the day of ovulation, the endometrium is not receptive to implantation. If the embryo were to drop down through the fallopian tubes into the uterus on that day, it could rightly be called a “hostile endometrium”. But following ovulation, the corpus luteum transforms this hostile endometrium into a receptive, nourishing bed, where the embryo will attach about one week later after its trip through the fallopian tube, and where the baby will continue to develop until birth….
For a more thorough article attempting to refute the “hostile endometrium theory”, please see an article entitled “Hormone Contraceptives, Controversies, and Clarifications, authored by four Christian pro-life Ob/Gyns who are members of the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists: http://www.aaplog.org/decook.htm.
There is a third reason that a pro-life physician who is convinced that life begins at conception may reject the notion that OCs are abortifacient: he is convinced that there are less, not more, unintentional abortions in woman on OCs compared to women who are not. For a drug to be classified as abortifacient, conception must occur, and the loss of these conceptions must exceed the baseline loss for populations not using the drug, or be shown to occur solely as a result of the drug. Even if there is a palpable accidental abortion rate on the OC’s through the third mode of action, this is much less frequent than the accidental miscarriage rate in the population of sexually-active women who are not on OCs. All things considered, there are less miscarriages in women on oral contraceptives than in women not on oral contraceptives.
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You say, “I am saying that until we have unadulterated proof that the Pill actually does prevent implantation (which we don’t, and we have an awful lot of Pill babies to prove otherwise), I don’t feel the Pill should be made illegal. Inadvisable, yes, but not illegal.”
I hear, “I am saying that until we have unadulterated proof that the blastocyst/embryo/fetus is actually a person (which we don’t, and we have an awful lot of other theories and cultural/religious points of view to prove otherwise), I don’t feel abortion should be made illegal. Inadvisable, yes, but not illegal.“
I guess it’s just my biased pro-life world view filter…. I’m just not willing to risk a child’s life on a quantum experiment. You are putting a child in that box Kel. I can’t knowingly do that. Sorry. No amount of “maybes” “possibly”s or “could”s is going to make that ok for me. If it could, I would be pro-“choice” and believe all that world-view crap from Duck.
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TCH,
I am pro-life.
You are welcome to “hear” whatever you want to imagine, but I believe in personhood at conception. I also do not believe in the outlawing of a Pill that has not been conclusively proven to extinguish human life after fertilization. You might want to read what I linked to from prolifephysicians.org. There is no scientific consensus on the hostile endometrium theory. I am against the Pill. I apparently am not against it solely for the reason you are against it. If you want to label me “pro-choice” because I am not against the Pill for the same reasons you are, that’s your prerogative, I guess.
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Yes, we say that. But do you know what we also say? This:
The proponents of the “hostile endometrium theory” argue that OCs are abortifacient based upon the third mechanism of action. The medical literature clearly supports the claim that the uterus becomes thinner and less glandular as a result of the OCs, however, the medical literature comes to this conclusion from non-ovulatory pill cycles. It is assumed that this finding in non-ovulatory pill cycles would prevent implantation of the embryo conceived in an ovulatory pill cycle, but this presumption is false. If a woman on OCs ovulates and conceives, everything changes: through the HCG’s affect on the corpus luteum, and the corpus luteum’s release of high levels of estrogen and progesterone, the uterus is able to nourish its new guest very well.
But I guess just closing your ears and calling us pro-choice is easier than reading.
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“Tyler, if you guys can’t see how contradictory you’re being and how irrational it looks from my POV, that’s your problem. I’m going to continue laughing while I watch you all shoot yourselves in the feet like in Mississippi. Hopefully, I’ll be able to be a loud enough voice in my state next year as to prevent our Personhood legislation from meeting the same fate due to the anti-contraception/anti-IVF nonsense being peddled in Mississippi.”
Xalisae, it is not me or my views that cause contraceptive methods (such as the Pill, condoms, etc…) to fail, they just do… and this is a fact, a fact that you have admitted is true. Similarly, it is not my view that the Pill also kills embryos, little children, by preventing implantation. It too is a fact, a fact that you have also admitted is true. Your issue is not with me or my views. Your issue is with the scientific, natural and biological facts. Good luck reconciling your views with the scientific facts.
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you know X, I would dearly love for scientists to find out the pill does NOT cause a baby to die from not being able to implant, because I took the pill and I hate to think I may have aborted my own little boys and girls. To find that out would elate me because that would mean that I didn’t lose any children.
But the pill’s own insert says that the pill can prevent implantation. If the manufacturer can admit it why do we pro-lifers insist its not true?
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It too is a fact, a fact that you have also admitted is true.
It has not been substantiated. I take it into consideration, because it’s almost always best to look at everything while considering the worst-case scenario. That is not a concession.
Good luck reconciling your views with the scientific facts.
I already have, but thanks for the pep-talk.
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Bryan says:
December 6, 2011 at 11:44 am
Pamela – that information is not complete.
I am aware of that, Bryan. I only copied and pasted it to show what “information” is being put out there.
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“It (failure of implantation due to the Pill) has not been substantiated. I take it into consideration, because it’s almost always best to look at everything while considering the worst-case scenario. That is not a concession.” (Edits by this poster.)
Xalisae, it is now my turn to laugh a little. You better do some more research.
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Xalisae, as you know, not all contraceptive methods kill embryos. For example, condoms, tubal ligation, and vasectomies do not. So women would not be without all forms of contraception. This is another reason why we should support the moment of fertilization as the starting point of legal personhood.
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I’m still waiting to hear what you all have to say about the long piece of info I posted above from prolifephysicians.org.
The research to this point has not shown any evidence that the Pill prevents implantation.
I am totally ok with someone not using the Pill if they feel it “may” prevent implantation. In fact, I would say, “Don’t take it!” Because I wouldn’t.
But you cannot make something illegal because you think it “might” do something yet have no scientific proof that it is true. That’s all I’m saying.
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ok. Keep ignoring the above research.
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Xalisae, why are you pro-Pill?
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Xalisae, as you know, not all contraceptive methods kill embryos. For example, condoms, tubal ligation, and vasectomies do not. So women would not be without all forms of contraception. This is another reason why we should support the moment of fertilization as the starting point of legal personhood.
Not all women can afford TL. Not all women are ready for TL. Not all men can afford vasectomies. Not all men are ready for them. Condoms break.
This is why we should support women having access to as many forms of CONTRACEPTION as possible.
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Tyler –
Because I actually listen to the women I argue with about abortion, day in, day out, year after year after year. I may not think much of them, but I still give them the consideration I would want someone else to give me. I’d want to have that available to me if I felt I needed it.
However, I can’t take hormonal contraception. It screws with my brain, makes me act strangely, and feel sick. After I get my tubes untied and my fiance and I have completed our family, he’s going to get a vasectomy. But just because it doesn’t affect me doesn’t give me an excuse to stop giving others the consideration I would want. I try to do that for both the woman and her child.
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Xalisae, if the Pill is found (I am assuming you don’t believe that there is a link between the Pill and breast cancer) to pose serious health risks to women would you still support the Pill? From what I can tell, your refusal to accept fertilization as the point at which legal personhood begins is due to the fact it puts the Pill (chemical contraceptive methods), and only the Pill, are at risk of being banned if fertilization is chosen as the point that legal personhood. Since no other contraceptive methods are at risk should fertilization be the point at which legal personhood is recognized your position is looking less reasonable by the minute.
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Revised
Xalisae, if the Pill is found to pose serious health risks to women would you still support the Pill? (I am assuming you don’t believe that there is a link between the Pill and breast cancer.)
From what I can tell, your refusal to accept fertilization as the point at which legal personhood should begin is due to the fact it puts the Pill (chemical contraceptive methods), and only these methods, at risk of being banned. Since no other types of contraceptive methods are at risk of being banned when fertilization is determined to be the point at which legal personhood should be recognized your position is appearing less reasonable by the minute.
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I’m sure people who fire guns in the air aren’t attempting to kill anyone. I still wouldn’t want to be around when those bullets come down.
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Look.
Some research – according to the information I linked to above – points to the fact that a woman may actually be more likely to miscarry or have an unsuccessful implantation OFF the Pill than ON it.
So I don’t think we’re talking about firing bullets into the air. People may actually be killing more children by being off the Pill. Or they may not. At this point, THERE IS NO CONCLUSIVE PROOF EITHER WAY.
I can’t speak for Xalisae, but I do not “support the Pill.” I am very much against the Pill and other forms of hormonal contraception. But I do not believe making the Pill illegal on the basis of an unproven claim is prudent. I don’t like it, I don’t use it, and I discourage others from using it because I don’t believe it’s good for women. In my opinion, education on contraception is important.
If future research shows that the Pill does conclusively prevent implantation, I will be first in line to say “make it illegal.”
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Kel, et al.,
Just for the sake of balance, here’s an excerpt from the web-site of “Pharmacists For Life, International”, at the following link: http://www.pfli.org/faq_oc.html
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I don’t care if it does, Tyler. They’re doing that to themselves. It’s their body, their choice. That’s what they want for themselves, they are big girls quite capable of weighing the risks against the benefits for themselves.
If you think we can realistically legislate women passing embryos when that happens completely without their knowledge, you go right ahead. I don’t set the point there because of a love for hormonal contraception. I set the point there because mandating that every embryo implant by law is insanity and absolutely impossible.
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What has happened within the woman’s body to reduce the high ovulation rate to such a low number of detected pregnancies? I suggest that one answer to this important question is that pregnancies have begun, because ovulation and fertilization have occurred, but some of these pregnancies are terminated because implantation cannot take place. The pill has damaged the lining of the womb, stopping implanation.
And yet, this is a “suggestion,” once again, with no actual research to determine its factuality. This person is assuming. This person, I hope, does realize that simply because one ovulates does not mean that one conceives?
And if that lining is damaged, then how is it that a woman can miss a Pill and end up pregnant? Or not miss ANY pills and end up pregnant? There are an awful lot of those for it to simply be a fluke.
It is because the levels of these two hormones are wrong that the week-old embryo cannot attach to the womb. Cell talk fails, the proper development of the womb doesn’t occur, and the embryo dies from a lack of nutrition normally supplied to it from the lining of the womb. In fact, wrong levels of artifical progesterone have been shown to cause a very thin lining of the womb, making implantation impossible.
In the explanation I linked to above (which I also learned about in a seminar on contraception, btw), it states that the hormones surge upon conception, whether or not there are oral contraceptives in the mix.
I would be interested to read the research that the source quotes. If you have that information available, please put the links here! thanks! :)
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“I set the point there because mandating that every embryo implant by law is insanity and absolutely impossible.”
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“I set the point there because mandating that every embryo implant by law is insanity and absolutely impossible.”
Xalisae, you can’t really believe that the government wants to do that it. You currently are not allowed to murder, and yet, amazingly, the government does not check to see if every person that you have come into contact with is still alive.
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I think I just found some of the research your source referenced, Paladin, in this article, here, which is worth the long read, for anyone who actually wants to read the clinical research instead of accusing the rest of us of being pro-choice:
http://www.aaplog.org/position-and-papers/oral-contraceptive-controversy/hormone-contraceptives-controversies-and-clarifications/
The available data referenced in this discussion has, then, yielded this information: 13,000 cycles of compliant COC use results in 15.5 ovulations, and one ongoing pregnancy. The basic question in the entire “pill” controversy is, “What happened to the other 14.5 eggs?” Were they the victim of an “inhospitable endometrium”(whose existence in an ovulatory cycle is very questionable), or can they be accounted for in other ways? Let us start with the 15.5 ovulations noted above. Available data indicate that 10 to 15% of our population is infertile.(41, p 809) Of the original 15.5 eggs, This leaves 13.5 eggs available for possible fertilization and ongoing pregnancy. One could simply take the 13.5 eggs available for fertilization, apply the normal human fecundity table of 25% per cycle (the fecundity table requires optimum conditions: normal fertility in the man and woman, and correct timing of coitus). (28) We would expect 3.3 pregnancies, IF the cervical mucus is favorable, the viable sperm are present, and the timing is right. Referencing the previous paragraph, cervical mucus factors block sperm 80 to 90% of the time in non-ovulatory studies. IF adequate numbers of viable sperm can get free and make it to the waiting egg within the 36 hour receptivity window just 33% of the time, one egg might be fertilized to become an ongoing pregnancy. We don’t know about the sperm and timing, and the cervical mucus is probably not optimum. If one of these 3.3 remaining eggs is fertilized and thrives, this equals the known ongoing pregnancy rate seen in compliant COC users: One per 1,000 woman years (13,000 cycles) of use. The fate of the l5.5 eggs can also be considered from other available data. Again, the 10 to l5% infertility rate leaves 13.5 eggs available for possible fertilization. Recent critically reviewed data indicates that from fertilization to 6 weeks, spontaneous pregnancy wastage is 73%. (26, 27) This leaves 3.5 eggs available for fertilization and ongoing pregnancy. As above, considering mucus, sperm, and timing factors, one egg might be fertilized to become an ongoing pregnancy. This again equals the known pregnancy rate on compliant COC usage: per 1,000 woman years (13,000 cycles) of use. This exercise in arithmetic is not meant to be a statistician’s scientific proof text. It is rather an overview of COC unintended ovulation rates and subsequent ongoing pregnancy rates using available peer-reviewed data to account for the eggs in question.
A recent study by specialists in reproductive technology found, with genetic sampling of morphologically normal embryos, that 24 of 50 had chromosomal abnormalities, and would likely not survive. (79) Gift procedures, introducing multiple viable eggs, along with good sperm, into the fallopian tube at the optimum time, with optimum endometrium, only yield a 30% success rate. 30% of failed fertilization is due to faulty sperm. There are evidently many naturally occurring reasons for preimplantation loss.
Considering the above information on ovulatory related hormone influences on the endometrium, “on pill” ovulation rates and pregnancy rates, the cervical mucus factor, and known data on human fecundity, fertility, and spontaneous loss rates, it can be appreciated that there is no need to postulate a pill-induced preimplantation abortion phenomenon to explain why 15.5 eggs produce one ongoing pregnancy. Known and natural causes can account for the numbers.
Also interesting – in Randy Alcorn’s book, it appears he interviewed one pharmacist who worked for Ortho-McNeil, a BCP manufacturer, who claimed the Pill was abortifacient because of observable differences in a non-contracepting endometrium and a contracepting one. However, he did not appear to list any info or research on what happens at the moment of fertilization and the surges of hormones that prepare the endometrial lining to receive the developing child. Therefore, this pharmacist’s comparison appears not to be taking all factors into account.
Sorry for such long posts, btw.
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WOW. X, you sound JUST like how the pro-aborts sound arguing for abortion!!!!!
They say “How are you going to legislate that every fetus be gestated… and given birth to… Are you going to go after women who have miscarriages?”
You are using the same line of reasoning!!!! We can’t tell if every human embryo implants. What i’m saying is a pill designed with a mechanism that prevents a newly conceived human from implanting should not be on the market. If you believe that human life begins at conception how can you be okay with it? Or maybe you really believe that older, more developed human life is more valuable than younger, less developed human life? I am trying to figure out why you support this.
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Kel – you can post as much info as you want. I still say that the drug information published by the drug makers is the unvarnished truth based on their own research and based on more data than anyone else has. And the quote I included before and will include again here comes directly from the complete ORTHO TRI-CYCLEN® Lo Tablets
(norgestimate/ethinyl estradiol) patient information – the insert found in every package of that particular contraceptive. If you would like to read it yourself, you can find it at http://www.thepill.com/thepill/shared/pi/Tri-Cyclen_Lo_PI.pdf#zoom=100. And it says:
“CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY
Oral Contraception
Combination oral contraceptives act by suppression of gonadotropins. Although the primary
mechanism of this action is inhibition of ovulation, other alterations include changes in the cervical
mucus (which increase the difficulty of sperm entry into the uterus) and the endometrium (which
reduce the likelihood of implantation).”
I would also like to point out one thing from the info you quoted. “But the third proposed method of action, the so-called “hostile endometrium theory”, has little direct evidence to support it. ” Please note that it does not say there is no evidence. It just says there is little direct evidence.
You seem so convinced by Physicians for Life. Do you dismiss Pharmacists for Life? If so, why? People say they are “for women” all the time when they are supporting abortion. Everybody has their own agenda to support, especially in the public square (which includes web sites where people state their opinions about things). That is why I try to rely on the unvarnished pure scientific fact about contraceptives. And I find that the most unbiased straightforward facts come from the sources I have shown. Nobody says their assertions are wrong or that their data is a lie. They may disagree about the significance or implications, but the facts are what they are.
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Thanks Bryan. As I said before, the very package insert for the pill admits it can prohibit implantation.
Not every drunk who drinks like crazy at a bar and then gets behind the wheel of a car is going to kill himself or others. In fact, I know many of my friends and family who did just that in their youth and they are still alive today and never killed anyone. But does anyone argue that accidents and death from drunk driving NEVER happen? That because some make it home alive its okay to do or should be legal to drink and drive? Yet that seems to be the argument in support of the pill! The fact that my son made out okay is a miracle!! Some children do not!
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Child in a box. Does the Pill cause changes that otherwise would not have been made in the lining? Yes. Are those changes considered inhospitable? Yes.
You are banking on the assumption that conception makes changes to the lining that would over-rule the Pill’s changes in EVERY CASE. There is no evidence of this. And yes I have read all your articles. They too are assuming and theorizing, except that they are doing so in contradiction to the evidence presented to them. Not very scientific.
Still an obvious and unacceptable risk. This is a human life. Do not put the child in the box.
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Xalisae, there is one other thing I don’t understand: if the Pill, or COCs, aren’t abortifacient then you have another reason not to object to making fertilization the point at which legal personhood is recognized. According to this tame view of COCs, other women would be able to use the Pills that make you sick. There is no logical reason why the legality or illegality of contraceptive methods would affect the legality or illegality of making fertilization the point at which legal personhood is recognized for human beings, or vice versa.
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Kel – let me first say that I respect the fact that you are working hard to ensure you are making good and moral choices. While I may disagree with you in this case, I completely respect what you have to say, and I appreciate that you are making me think also.
The last info you posted is, as you obviously know, from AAPLOG. Generally, I have some respect for that organization. However, they are also a part of ACOG. And it was ACOG that redefined conception as implantation rather than fertilization. So even though I believe they have some good things to say, I am also skeptical due to their existence as a special interest group within ACOG (their words, not mine). The following comes from Guttmacher’s “The Implications of Defining When a Woman is Pregnant.”
When Does Pregnancy Begin?
Although widespread, definitions that seek to establish fertilization as the beginning of pregnancy go against the long-standing view of the medical profession and decades of federal policy, articulated as recently as during the Bush administration. In fact, medical experts—notably the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG)—agree that the establishment of a pregnancy takes several days and is not completed until a fertilized egg is implanted in the lining of the woman’s uterus. (In fact, according to ACOG, the term “conception” properly means implantation.) A pregnancy is considered to be established only when the process of implantation is complete (see box, page 8).
When Is a Woman Pregnant?
To be sure, not every act of intercourse results in a pregnancy. First, ovulation (i.e., the monthly release of a woman’s egg) must occur. Then, the egg must be fertilized. Fertilization describes the process by which a single sperm gradually penetrates the layers of an egg to form a new cell (“zygote”). This usually occurs in the fallopian tubes and can take up to 24 hours. There is only a short window during which an egg can be fertilized. If fertilization does not occur during that time, the egg dissolves and then hormonal changes trigger menstruation; however, if fertilization does occur, the zygote divides and differentiates into a “preembryo” while being carried down the fallopian tube toward the uterus. Implantation of the preembryo in the uterine lining begins about five days after fertilization. Implantation can be completed as early as eight days or as late as 18 days after fertilization, but usually takes about 14 days. Between one-third and one-half of all fertilized eggs never fully implant. A pregnancy is considered to be established only after implantation is complete.
Source: American College of Obstetricans and Gynecologists.
Finally, whether you wish to define pregnancy as starting at implantation or not, the egg, once fertilized, is a unique human being that has started on the continuum of development that will only end with death. Whether or not we call that baby’s mother “pregnant” does not change the unique and fully human nature of that new being. The only question, should that new life fail to make it to birth, is whether it was due, in whole or in part, to our actions or only God’s.
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by the way, for anyone that has not already done so, that Guttmacher report on defining pregnancy is quite interesting – and it has some interesting info on the changes to the definition over time that I did not know – if interested, it can be found in its entirety at
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/08/2/gr080207.html
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I apologize for the multiple posts, but as I continue reading and learning (thanks to Kel’s insistent discussion), I keep finding more interesting information. Here is some more detail regarding the redefinition of conception by the ACOG. This is from Wiki, which I do not find reliable, but I checked their references to verify the veracity of the information, so here it is.
In 1959, Dr. Bent Boving suggested that the word “conception” should be associated with the process of implantation instead of fertilization. Some thought was given to possible societal consequences, as evidenced by Boving’s statement that “the social advantage of being considered to prevent conception rather than to destroy an established pregnancy could depend on something so simple as a prudent habit of speech.” In 1965, the ACOG adopted Boving’s definition: “conception is the implantation of a fertilized ovum.”
So, conception was historically associated with fertilization. A mere 52 years ago, it was suggested that the definition should be changed to refer to implantation instead. This suggestion was made with the full understanding that it would make it socially more acceptable if we could say we were preventing conception rather than destroying a human being. Six years later, the ACOG went along. And there we have it. Ella is a contraceptive, not an abortion pill. How convenient!
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And if that lining is damaged, then how is it that a woman can miss a Pill and end up pregnant? Or not miss ANY pills and end up pregnant? There are an awful lot of those for it to simply be a fluke.
Yeah. My 2 nieces, my fiance’s godson and his brother, my son…apparently at least one child of another commentator here…All these kids show me that this is much ado about nothing, which leads me to believe once again it’s not a legitimate concern at all, but an attempt to change peoples’ bedroom habits.
Xalisae, you can’t really believe that the government wants to do that it.
Ummm….Banning hormonal contraceptives would be step 1 in attempting to do just that.
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“Ummm….Banning hormonal contraceptives would be step 1 in attempting to do just that.”
You envisioned a truly scary hypothetical scenario. I don’t think it is possible for the government to know when a couple creates a human embryo, let alone that they would be able to forcibly implant that embryo in the Mother. This is truly a nightmare situation that violates the dignity of the couple, especially the women, and the embryo.
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X, I am not trying to change anyone’s bedroom habits. I don’t believe using contraception is wrong. I use condoms with my husband. I don’t have a problem with someone who gets a vasectomy or a tubal ligation. I don’t care if someone uses NFP to space children or doesn’t. I don’t care if a woman says “I NEVER want children” or if someone like Michelle Duggar wants 20!
My only problem with the IUD and the pill is that it can kill a newly conceived human being. It reminds me of when the pro-aborts say “We don’t know when life begins.” Well, shouldn’t we err on the side of caution? If we don’t know that the pill can or can’t kill human beings then shouldn’t we err on the side of life and say it shouldn’t be used till we know for certain? I am not talking about legality here, I’m talking about pro-lifers using or supporting use of the pill.
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Because there are women who have gotten pregnant on the pill does not mean the pill hasn’t killed other children. The pill uses strong synthetic hormones. If it is messing with the lining of the uterus then how does it follow that it would NEVER prevent implantation?
Women have differing thickness in their uterine lining. Just as all women will not ovulate during the same time in their cycle so too women will have varying degrees of thickness. Maybe I conceived despite pill use because I have a very thick lining normally. Maybe the pill only thinned my lining a little or thinned it yet it was still within the range to accept a newly conceived baby. Maybe other women have thinner linings to begin with and the pill thins it to the point it can’t accept a newly conceived baby.
My grandfather started smoking at 15 years of age. He died in his late 70’s of issues unrelated to smoking. He smoked several packs a day for most of his life. Yet he never had heart disease or lung cancer or emphysema. There are people genetically prone to resisting cancer. I wouldn’t point to him or others I know like him and say “See? Smoking doesn’t mean you’ll get cancer!” yet thats what you’re doing because I and others happen to conceive while on the pill.
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Ok Xalisae, so we ban all birth control and all the power of reproduction can go back to men… I’m sure you would have no problem giving back some of your federally protected civil rights?
It is widely known that certain things can make hormonal birth control like the pill ineffective. Anti-biotic meds for example will nullify your hormonal birth control as well as other things including in some rare cases your diet. A mechanical IUD has no hormones and physically blocks the eggs path and with this method you can use all the anti-biotic meds you want and it will change nothing.
The wonderful thing about birth control is the amount of CHOICES you have so that you can find one or two methods that work well for you and your family.
Let’s be real here… When you are talking about birth control you are not talking about abortion or even stopping a beating heart… You are simply talking about stopping an egg from attaching to the uterus causing it to be flushed out during your next monthly delightful few days along with all the other fertilized eggs that did not attach to the uterus naturally with or without birth control. It’s not murder, its menstruation…
There are enough uneducated people in this country that someday you might win 51% of the abortion argument you have been losing for the last 40 years, but you will never take birth control away from women in a free society.
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Kel,
All right… let us suppose, for the sake of argument, that the evidence for the abortifacient effect of hormonal contraceptives (and I’d note that there are several types of these, with varying effects–e.g. progestin-only, combination, etc.) is not air-tight (or even particularly compelling, for someone who doesn’t already suspect it). I still see this case as one in which the reasoning is plausible, where the consequences (if it is true) are utterly grave, and where the reasons in favour of using such contraceptives often amount to a free decision to adapt one’s life-style to one’s personal tastes (i.e. wanting sex without the possibility of conceiving a child or children).
First: the reasoning takes several true and established facts:
(*) that artificial introduction of reproductive hormones into a woman’s body will affect that woman’s reproductive cycle, perhaps significantly;
(*) that the purpose of hormonal contraception is to frustrate (i.e. disrupt), and not to enhance or assist, the woman’s body in the natural course of a reproductive cycle;
(*) that a disruption of a woman’s reproductive cycle, which includes the development of the endometrial lining as a nurturing recipient of an implantation-bound embryo, can have significant implications for the implantation (and the very life and health) of that child;
(*) that a given chemical (or chemicals) known to frustrate the onset of pregnancy can, all other things being equal, be expected to have adverse effects, rather than beneficial effects, on the implantation dynamics for any given child in such a situation (the idea that it could be expected to have a consistent beneficial effect, while still being highly effective at enacting conditions hostile to pregnancy, seem rather far-fetched, to me);
Second: it uses data (e.g. the “missing ovulations”, etc.) to point to a plausible mechanism for the lack of subsequent implantations; it raises the plausible point that, all other things being equal, the discrepancy between so-called “break-through” ovulations and the paucity of implantations (in the face of predicted percentages of such ovulations which result in a child) could be a result of actions by the foreign chemicals whose express purpose is to alter the reproductive environment. It’s really not very far-fetched to suppose that, for example, the likelihood of getting burned on a stove is higher if one has been trying to light that stove (even though it is not guaranteed, and though it is possible to be burned in other circumstances, as well–e.g. stove malfunction, etc.). Just so, in this case. It’s hardly the case that the case for “abortifacient birth-control” was conjured up out of a tea-leaf-reading session, after all!
Third: given the hostility (and/or apathy) toward the life-issue by the current administration (and several previous ones)… even to the extent that the very definition of pregnancy was redefined (and in a way which gave abortion-tolerant people more latitude, not less, for their position)… I find it rather bizarre to suggest that such agencies would not have moved heaven and earth to remove the warning labels which claimed the possibility of abortifacient effects from ABC, if the data were truly as poor as you suggest.
There are other reasons, of course… but I’m trying my best to be a bit less verbose, as an Advent self-discipline. :)
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Xalisae, my view is that one shouldn’t leave their morality at the door once they walk into the bedroom. Individuals should not pretend that the bedroom is a “moral-free” room. However, I do recognize that contraception, although I find it morally repugnant, is not always deadly. Some forms of contraception are more anti-life than others. Surely, you recognize the differences in the various forms of contraceptives?
In any event, the legality of contraception is not dependent on the when the human being is determined to be first created.
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“Let’s be real here… When you are talking about birth control you are not talking about abortion or even stopping a beating heart… You are simply talking about stopping an egg from attaching to the uterus causing it to be flushed out during your next monthly delightful few days along with all the other fertilized eggs that did not attach to the uterus naturally with or without birth control. It’s not murder, its menstruation…”
Biggz you seem quite sure of yourself, and that the Pill doesn’t increase the number of failed implantations. Why do you not want to think critically about the birth control methods provided to women as CHOICES? Are not some choices better than others? Is it not possible that some contraception methods actually are not contraceptives but abortifacients?
A fertilized egg is a human being.
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Finally, whether you wish to define pregnancy as starting at implantation or not, the egg, once fertilized, is a unique human being that has started on the continuum of development that will only end with death. Whether or not we call that baby’s mother “pregnant” does not change the unique and fully human nature of that new being. The only question, should that new life fail to make it to birth, is whether it was due, in whole or in part, to our actions or only God’s.
This discussion has pretty much gone the way I thought it would go – with other pro-lifers putting words in my mouth.
Let me be clear.
I do not approve of the Pill.
I believe life begins at fertilization, not at implantation.
I do not take the Pill, nor do I advise other women to consider it; rather, I discourage its consumption.
AND I also do not believe that with the studies/research we currently have, that the Pill should be made illegal or labeled as a definitive abortifacient.
Bryan, I read Paladin’s info from Pharmacists for Life and then I read another article at the AAPLOG which utilized the same data, and I posted the information I found there. The studies found no evidence for the hostile endometrium theory.
My stance is that until/unless some conclusive data shows that the Pill is definitively abortifacient, the Pill should remain legal. No one up to this point – NO ONE – has found conclusively that the Pill is an abortifacient.
And yet, I would like to note that just because something is legal does NOT make it healthy. As was pointed out, smoking is not healthy, but it’s legal. The Pill is not healthy for women, but it’s legal.
Do you have reason to assume that the AAPLOG is lying? Reason to believe they have redefined their terms? They have a couple articles over there with opposing views on this subject, btw.
Where are the pharmaceutical studies for the Pill, Bryan? Why have those same results been non-reproduceable, if this is supposed to be scientific fact?
I understand the view that some take here that the Pill should never be taken because they believe there is a chance that it might prevent a zygote from implanting. And frankly, I wouldn’t take it, because there is nothing that says it DOESN’T prevent implantation – and there is no research showing that it DOES prevent implantation, either.
I am speaking here of legality. Making the Pill illegal or labeling it a definitive abortifacient is something researchers have been unable to do up to this point. Therefore, there is no reason under personhood to make it illegal.
I hope everyone sees my point now. But probably not, since you clearly haven’t read what I’ve said up to this point.
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Paladin, I am not “in favour of using such contraceptives.” I am, however, in favor of not making them illegal at this time due to the lack of definitive research.
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Kel, at what stage of human development do you believe a human being should be recognized as a person?
Or alternatively, when do you believe legal personhood begins?
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Kel, i have read and understand your point. I just disagree with you. Pill manufacturers admit the pill CAN (not only does but can) prevent implantation.
Biggz, you said “You are simply talking about stopping an egg from attaching to the uterus causing it to be flushed out during your next monthly delightful few days along with all the other fertilized eggs that did not attach to the uterus naturally with or without birth control. It’s not murder, its menstruation…”
Do you understand that women don’t just release eggs all month? How can you know when human life begins, and when heartbeats begin and whether a human being is being killed by the pill or IUD when you can’t even understand basic biology?
Women release one egg a month. Once in a while a woman can release 2 or 3 resulting in fraternal twins or triplets. Obviously fertility drugs can stimulate the ovaries to release even more but you do realize they are all released within a 24 hour time frame? So your comment about “all the other fertilized eggs” makes no sense.
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I am relieved that Gingrich demonstrates he can learn and sharpen his statements. And I’m glad he went out of his way to go on record.
I don’t see how anyone can have a problem with life beginning at fertlization. Unless they’re selling/ buying little humans, or making a profit on the sale of arbortifacient contraceptives.
About the pill and IUDs- what does it say about women that we put up with crappy medicine, even to the point of thinking it’s necessary for women? Pill manufacturerS can take a hike as far as I’m concerned. I have enough problems with real hormones. I don’t want fake ones, especially for non-medical lifestyle
reasons. What a mess.
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Kel, the same hormones that disrupt ovulation also disrupt the formation of the uterine lining even to the point of stopping menstruation all together. High doses of hormonal contraceptives are prescribed to some women just for their use at alleviating not only the formation of the uterine lining but stopping the menstrual cycle completely.
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Truthseeker, you reminded me with your comment that women with endometriosis are also prescribed the pill because it prevents the growth of the uterine lining.
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Bryan,
Would you agree that those inserts in the contraceptive packaging have bogus studies on the effectiveness of contraception at preventing pregnancy. The studies that are supposed to measure the effectievness of contraceptives do not even take into account the frequency of sex during the time of the trial. A misconception that leaves people with a false perception that frequency of sex does not have any effect your chances of getting pregnant. And lie of sex with out consequences is what they are pushing in order to sell birth control.
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Tyler, I believe humans are persons at fertilization.
For the last time – and I really mean the last time, because most if you are clearly not reading what I’m saying anyway – my stance at this point is that until there is conclusive evidence (as in actual research as opposed to assumption) that the Pill is a definitive abortifacient to new human beings in the earliest stages of development, I do not believe outlawing the Pill is the best way to go.
Done now. I swear, this has been like talking to the wall because no one’s listening, or you wouldn’t be asking me the things you’re asking.
Goodnight.
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PS- Sydney, “can” is actually less definitive than “does.”
And it’s obvious none of you read the links and text I posted today.
So glad I wasted my time. Won’t make that mistake again on this thread.
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Kel wrote:
Paladin, I am not “in favour of using such contraceptives.”
Oh, heavens… I never meant to imply that you were! No, no… I’d commented in general, on the fact that those who DO use such contraceptives are very often doing so for [thus-and-so reasons, stated above]. I do apologise if I gave the wrong impression, or if I seemed to be attacking you or your position; that was light-years away from any intention of mine! In addition to this, I’d already noted (many times over) your own personal opposition to pill use (for yourself, at very least); you’d made that quite clear, and I readily believed you.
I am, however, in favor of not making them illegal at this time due to the lack of definitive research.
Hm. I’m afraid the definition of “definitive research” is a problem, in that approach. Just as abortion cannot be “proven with definitive research” to be evil, or harmful, or in any way worthy of being made illegal (since those who have the power to enforce such a value judgment are often blinded to the evidence, and “conclusive” becomes rather a personalized, eye-of-the-beholder term), the same problem exists here.
Consider the case for the “Abortion-Breast Cancer Link”: I know of no abortion-tolerant person who finds any of the studies on that topic “conclusive” (save, perhaps, for the isolated ones which agree with the view they already hold), nor do I know of any consensus among the recognised medical authorities on that point (due, again, to a good deal of ideological bias). Likewise, in the case for “Abortion PTSD”: the same sort of resistance to recognising any “definitive research” (regardless of whether such research has been done, or not) happens with abortion-tolerant readers/viewers, and with the “general consensus of medical professionals who make such policies” (but I repeat myself!). All one need do, to thwart any recognition of “definitive research”, is to “raise the bar” for the standard by which any research is declared/recognized to be “definitive”, and the entire effort to demonstrate the given threat conks.
You wrote, above:
Bryan, I read Paladin’s info from Pharmacists for Life and then I read another article at the AAPLOG which utilized the same data, and I posted the information I found there. The studies found no evidence for the hostile endometrium theory. My stance is that until/unless some conclusive data shows that the Pill is definitively abortifacient, the Pill should remain legal. No one up to this point – NO ONE – has found conclusively that the Pill is an abortifacient.
Well… I found the following response, on the very same site (AAPLOG), which takes exception to the other AAPLOG article in the strongest possible terms:
http://www.aaplog.org/position-and-papers/oral-contraceptive-controversy/birth-control-pill-abortifacient-and-contraceptive/
There are details in this article which seek to address the points you raise, here. (And for what it’s worth: I did read your links… and I think that your points were not unreasonable at all; I merely suggest that there are dynamics and data which you might not have seen or considered, yet.)
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Kel, very few people are talking about outlawing the pill. However, some women, like yourself and Xalisae, are deeply concerned about the possibility of that happening. I just want it to be clear that you and Xalisae support the Personhood movement that recognizes fertilization, and not implantation, as the point at which legal protections for the unborn should commence. The legal recognition of the fertilized egg as a human being does not imply that the Pill will be outlawed. Xalisae and Kel please clarify.
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Kel, so you’re saying that you don’t believe anyone should try to outlaw the Pill based on it being a potential abortifacient because there is no hard evidence showing that the Pill has ever conclusively acted in an abortifacient manner. You clearly personally think the Pill is unhealthy for other reasons, but on the issue of abortion alone, you see no grounds for it to be outlawed. Is that correct?
Something else I’m wondering about — you commented a few times that the process of fertilization itself increases hormone levels with the express intent of affecting the uterine lining. I’m not sure exactly where you were going with that line of thought, but it has been pointed out to me that the hormones used in contraceptives are NOT bioidentical to the hormones the body produces naturally, therefore their effects on the body’s system are slightly different from the effects of natural hormones. So yes, the body regulates the levels of hormones all on its own, but besides the fact that the purpose of hormonal contraceptives is to negate/neutralize the way the body’s hormones work, there’s also the reality that artificial hormones add a completely new factor to the process because they don’t act in exactly the same ways natural hormones do. (My source also pointed out that while the contraceptive industry won’t admit there’s anything dangerous about these artificial hormones, they are actively seeking to reformulate some of their products with natural hormones instead.)
For what it’s worth, I can see why you’re making the argument you’re making about the abortifacient quality of hormonal birth control, but if I were in charge of the legalization or prohibition of certain drugs in our country, I would be equally concerned, if not more concerned, about the potential for damage that these artificial hormones are doing.
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Hey Kel, thanks for being snarky. I am trying to have a reasonable debate with you. It was a typo because I was typing very fast. I meant “not always” but “can” and my brain gets jumbled with thoughts coming very quickly.
You’re ridiculous in that you would err on the side of potentially killing newly conceived people instead of erring on the side of life. The pharmaceutical companies ADMIT as much as they hate to that the pill prevents implantation. It does not always but it HAS. Their research has shown that. If they didn’t have any proof that it had happened they wouldn’t even include it in the pill insert.
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However, some women, like yourself and Xalisae, are deeply concerned about the possibility of that happening.
I’m actually not deeply concerned about it. I think people are better off without consuming the Pill. I just don’t think outlawing something because it supposedly kills children is prudent when we don’t actually know that it kills children.
I just want it to be clear that you and Xalisae support the Personhood movement that recognizes fertilization, and not implantation, as the point at which legal protections for the unborn should commence.
Can’t speak for X, but yes, I do.
Valerie, regarding hormones, what I quoted was this: In the extensive literature we have reviewed, no writer has addressed this very significant question:In a menstrual cycle on the “pill” in which ovulation occurs, what is the histology of the endometrium six days after ovulation (the time of implantation)? Certainly the hormone milieu and endometrial histology will be different from a menstrual cycle on the “pill” in which ovulation does not occur(i.e.,the typical atrophic, or “hostile,” endometrium). The FSH-LH-estradiol surge the day before ovulation, and the resulting corpus luteum formation, with its ten to twentyfold estradiol and progesterone output, should produce significant changes in the endometrium. In a normal menstrual cycle, on the day of ovulation the uterine lining (proliferative endometrium) is not receptive to implantation. Seven days of follicle and corpus luteum hormone output transform it to “receptive.” The same follicle and corpus luteum hormone output, when ovulation occurs in a “pill” cycle, should have a similar salutary effect on the pill-primed endometrium. It is highly probable that the so-called “hostile to implantation” endometrium– heralded (without proof) from the beginning by the “pill” producing companies, echoed (without investigation) by 2 generations of scientific writers, and now adopted (as a scientific fact) by some sincere prolife advocates– simply does not exist six days after ovulation in a pill cycle. What is currently known about the endometrial response to corpus luteum hormones suggests this conclusion. Research regarding endometrial histology on the sixth day after escape ovulation in “on pill” cycles would add useful information to the current discussion. From here: http://www.aaplog.org/position-and-papers/oral-contraceptive-controversy/hormone-contraceptives-controversies-and-clarifications/
Sydney, I wasn’t getting snarky with you. I was attempting to clarify what I thought you were saying. But it’s extra sweet of you to call me ridiculous.
Look, folks, I want to know the truth here. We are on the same side. I just want to know that when I tell someone the Pill can cause abortions that I’m being accurate and truthful and not putting my own personal bias on to something that research has not actually proven.
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I am speaking here of legality. Making the Pill illegal or labeling it a definitive abortifacient is something researchers have been unable to do up to this point. Therefore, there is no reason under personhood to make it illegal.
I share this sentiment. However, if Personhood would or might ever make contraception illegal, I would not support the measure.
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Glad to hear you are for Fertilization as moment legal personhood should be recognized. (However, you did a good job in illuminating the fact that the Personhood movement needs to tighten up his lingo so that it is not co-opted by the pro-choice mis-information machine.)
Ok…now I am p.o. I read/listened to those STUPID and I mean STUPID NPR/Think Progress reports /articles. They are so full of misinformation/fear mongering it is disgusting. I am sorry Xalisae, I now know where some of your confusion comes from, the stupid pro-choice side, even if you haven’t read these obnoxious articles. I suggest you do. I think you would spot all the errors in a minute. Xalisae, please read the article, I think the lack of truthfulness in those articles will make you swing even further to the Catholic/Christian/Scientifically True position.
Click on “common…” and “preventing…” from above or below (if they work):
who also intend to ban many common forms of contraception. Because birth control bills and IUDs prevent fertilized eggs from implanting,
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Xalisae and Kel, if you have 5 minutes listen to the radio report attached to the article in the “prevent…” link. In that one they actually say that the Personhood movement is trying to re-define when life starts. This is wrong because life has never been defined in LAW – that is the problem, only a “person” is defined in law. The second (and there are many more) stupid thing said was: ”the question of when life begins is a theological question” and not a scientific question.
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Kel, read that book by Randy Alcorn. He does the digging for you. He documents where he finds all his information. Again, the pharmaceutical companies admit to the abortifacient nature of the pill yet you still scratch your head. Whatever.
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And I’m sorry Kel. I didn’t mean to say “I think YOU’RE ridiculous.” I should have clarified that I thought IT was ridiculous that you would not listen to what the very manufacturers of the pill have to say about its abortifacient nature. I’m actually not trying to be snarky I just can’t understand your refusal to believe the evidence on this. I highly doubt any new research would convince you.
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I highly doubt any new research would convince you.
Sydney, let me be frank here. You don’t know me.
It appears you think I have some ulterior motive for not accepting your claims outright. I don’t.
I am trying to understand why makers of the Pill claim it is possibly abortifacient and yet other research does not bear this out. Research like this should be reproduceable.
I’ve been looking at as many clinical studies as I can access online. Right now, there does not appear to be consensus within the scientific community about whether or not the endometrium is indeed hostile should ovulation occur.
If you have read anything I’ve quoted regarding this, perhaps it will help you to understand why I am questioning whether the hostile endometrium theory is plausible.
I have asked a few friends to send me any research they can find – actual research – that shows the endometrium, despite breakthrough ovulation, remains hostile to the implantation of a new human life.
Should that research actually show that the hostile endometrium theory is true, I will be changing my position on the legality of the Pill.
I don’t want Randy Alcorn to do the digging for me. You don’t seem to understand what I’m saying here – I want to see the studies and the results of those studies. The person from Ortho-McNeil that Alcorn interviewed said he believed the hostile endometrium theory to be true, but he stated that he could not prove this from the research. Just that he believed it.
I plan to keep researching and learning, and if anyone would care to send me some links to studies on the Pill, I would welcome those. You can email me under “Team” in the right hand sidebar.
If you’re going to email me to assassinate my character and make assumptions about me, please keep your email to yourself.
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And You Jill are for Romney – with $50.00 abortions http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/962685067.html
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