Voris: Some at March for Life part of “culture of death”
The culture of death is too well represented here at the March for Life – another one of those realities that many people will want to kill the messenger for saying out loud and other people will want to deny and spin and stick their heads in the sand about.
In fact, many will probably say – oh, there goes ChurchMilitant.TV with all their doom and gloom again.
Shout out to the Church of Nice gang – we didn’t create the conditions of the doom and gloom.
We just trap and expose it.
~ Michael Voris reporting that his (admittedly “nonscientific”) poll of March for Life attendees showed 1/3 supported the use of contraception and 20% supported homosexual relationships, ChurchMilitant.TV, January 24

So because I don’t care if people use condoms, which are not abortifacients, and which are often necessary* to protect people from sexually transmitted diseases like HIV/AIDS…
…and because I think my gay and lesbian friends should not be discriminated against and that their sex lives are none of the government’s business as long as they don’t hurt anybody…
…I am therefore part of the “Culture of Death,” despite the fact that I run a pro-life organization in addition to working a 9-to-five job, devoting most evenings and weekends to the cause of the preborn.
THIS is why so many people dismiss the pro-life movement out of hand. If you think ChurchMilitant’s comments are divisive and wrong, check out Secular Pro-Life (secularprolife.org).
*I anticipate the objection that abstinence is the best solution. There’s some truth to that, but life is messy– people cheat on their partners, people are raped, people are exposed to STDs at birth, and yes, people make stupid youthful mistakes. People with STDs, and their significant others, shouldn’t have to remain celibate forever.
“poll of March for Life attendees showed 1/3 supported the use of contraception”
Only?
Kelsey: I applaud the good that you do. Do even more by speaking the whole truth.
Putting on/taking off condoms or just touching an STD can transfer that STD to the fingers. HPV, chlamydia, and gonorrhea have been found in the eye. In other words, you can still get a STD!
If you truly love someone, you want the very best for them even if the best does NOT include yourself. Heaven vs hell on earth and possibly the hereafter.
Years ago, saw an article about going bareback in a major paper that quoted a young man as saying that going bareback he felt like a bride on her wedding night and wanted his guy’s HIV/AIDS virus because that would be like being pregnant with something of his growing inside of him. Not the ‘best’! ;>/
BTW, according to the CDC, the prevalence number of what they are now calling STIs is 110 million. At a population of 330 million that is 1 in 3. Note: “CDC’s analyses included eight common STIs: chlamydia, gonorrhea, hepatitis B virus (HBV), herpes simplex virus type 2 (HSV-2), human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), human papillomavirus (HPV), syphilis, and trichomoniasis.” They are NOT counting quite a few other STD/STIs. Don’t you think that herpes cold sores can be transferred by oral sex? http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats/STI-Estimates-Fact-Sheet-Feb-2013.pdf
Religiously Jesus is our BFF. Other people … not as much.
Michael Voris knows what Planned Parenthood knows: That a culture-wide acceptance of contraception leads to the hook-up culture, STD’s, objectification of women, and unwanted pregnancy. Also divorces, which are about the only consequence of contraception that PP does not profit from.
The abortion industry knows that the March For Life will remain of little consequence, as long as a major portion of the Marchers believe in contraception as much as Planned Parenthood does.
Sympathy for homosexuality is just a symptom: It means that the young Marchers do not know the right purpose for love and sex and marriage, and this also gives the abortion industry reason to rejoice.
We can love the people with same-sex attraction by telling them the truth: This habit that you find so attractive will not make you happy.
We can say the same to people who are enamored with contraception.
If people need to be 100% on board with Catholic doctrine to support fetal rights, we’ll never attain them.
I’m sure there were racists who opposed slavery and antisemites who hated the Holocaust.
If we welcome this support on fetal rights, it’s an opportunity to educate them. Nobody has to be perfect to support one specific political goal.
NOTHING on the March for Life or the Walk for Life except what Voris has to say?
Why the media blackout on this blog? Odd
I most often agree with Michael Voris’s analyses, but this time I think he’s over-reacting. I was actually surprised the numbers were that LOW on contraception/homosexual support.
And I don’t think this should not have been taken as some sort of indictment against Catholic Church teaching, although I’m sure it could always be better.
As Michael noted, there is a small percentage of my tribe (Protestants) who attend the March, and they would be overwhelmingly pro-contraceptive. Conversely, although I have no scientific polling on this myself, I imagine Evangelical Protestants would be more prone to oppose homosexuality than Catholics, since all we have are the “cliff notes,” as one of my Catholic friends calls the Bible, which speaks against homosexual behavior from cover to cover. Anyone who reads the Bible on a consistent basis gets that teaching reinforced often.
All of that was to say there was likely cross-contamination of those percentages.
Furthermore, the March for Life could and should be viewed as evangelistic of sorts. We draw some people in who aren’t 100% on board with even pro-life doctrine (exceptions, etc.) and hope to bring them along. i.e., I think it is good to know the March isn’t just preaching to the choir.
Suzanne — It’s not a matter of Catholic doctrine. Catholic doctrine is just reflecting the reality of human nature. If we are a culture of death, then that is what we will be and abortion will remain with us. If we restore a Culture of Life such as we all shared before the late 1960’s, then abortion will recede into the shadows once again.
Remember that America used to be more racist and more anti-Catholic in our attitudes — but we didn’t use contraception widely and we didn’t kill our children, either.
MaryAnn — I agree. Obama didn’t mandate this media blackout, and we won’t be punished for ignoring it. The theme of this year’s March was Adoption. I request that we hear more about the march and enjoy some insightful posts about the joys of adoption, making adoption easier as an alternative to abortion, creative ways to accomplish adoptions, stories about how the current Administration opposes adoptions and makes them difficult to accomplish….
Del, your bringing up adoptions reminded me of an informative 48 Hours investigation program about international adoptions and the problems that exist.
Our country needs to do more to promote adoption as a good and healthy choice as well as to further help people who want to keep their babies.
Which leads me to ask if anyone here as seen the movie Gimme Shelter? I saw it over the weekend; it’s a true story about a runaway teen who beats the odds of being coerced to abort her daughter. I was in tears at the end of the movie.
Jill Stanek says:
January 27, 2014 at 11:42 am
I most often agree with Michael Voris’s analyses, but this time I think he’s over-reacting.
YAY! I love it when Jill comes to visit us in the comment discussion!
Yes, Michael is over-reacting. He is talking to his fan-base: He wants ardent, young Catholics to see and speak more forcefully about the connection between contraception and abortion.
Christians should have a better understanding of human nature than non-Christians. As Catholics, we need to help our fellow Christians to see again why all of Christianity condemned contraception until the 20th century. We need to help Evangelical Christians to see again the true teaching of Christ and the Bible: Children are a blessing, and every biblical family wants many children. There is nothing in the Bible, not one solitary verse, that gives permission to use contraception. Whenever contraception is used in Scripture, it is punished and condemned. But the blessings of children are constantly praised. Bible Christians should feel this as acutely as Apostolic Christians do.
And then we must teach the secular world about the fundamentals of human nature. Scripture and Christian doctrine are excellent guides for us, but we have to ground this into physical science if we hope to persuade non-believers. We need to trust our own faith — We need to trust that Jesus is the author of human nature, and His teachings mean to help us to be happy. Even the difficult ones, like avoiding contraception.
I have found that worldly people are impressed by the prophecies of Pope Paul VI in Humanae vitae. Anyone who can correctly predict the future based on good science and nature deserves respect.
In 1968, Pope Paul VI warned that any culture that embraces contraception will suffer these consequences:
1) There will be a generally lowering of moral standards in all areas (any disagreement here?).
2) There will be an increase in premarital sex, adultery, divorce and unwed pregnancies (these have all become epidemic).
3) There will be a loss of feminine dignity. Women will be reduced to objects for the pleasure of men (pornography, etc).
4) There will be government coercion in reproductive matters (HHS Mandate).
:(
You know some pro-lifers are not heterosexual. There’s not a lot that we can do about that. I don’t think that means that the pro-lifer is part of the culture of death for like, existing.
This is depressing.
Has anyone seen what they think is an accurate count of how many people marched?
There are organizations of homosexuals who help each other to live out lives of chastity…. living against the world’s presumption that every person must follow his sexual urges like an animal. It does not take a whole lot of wisdom to live happily, but wisdom is a rare thing in this age.
COURAGE is a Catholic apostolate. There are similar groups for Evangelical Christians.
http://www.couragerc.net
The decision to engage with the gay lifestyle is similar to a married man’s decision to have an adulterous affair. It is quite a bit more than merely “existing.” No one is compelled to live out those urges.
Good news. Looks like the pro-life movement is diverse!
“If you truly love someone, you want the very best for them even if the best does NOT include yourself. ”
THAT is your solution for people who unfortunately contracted STDs? Lifelong celibacy? What if you got one as a child from sexual abuse or whatever? “Sorry kid, I know that’s not your fault but no intimacy for you, ever!”
Most STDs are not deadly and can be managed, even permanent ones. I’m not downplaying the seriousness of them, but to act like your life is over because you got herpes or something is just ridiculous.
I hope you’ve never had a cold sore on your mouth, Patti. The only loving thing you could do in that situation is refrain from kissing anyone else for the rest of your life.
Whatever Del. I’m sure comparing practicing homosexuals to animals will definitely get them to see the light!
And I’ve seen enough from certain segments of the religious world to know that plenty of them still dislike and distrust you for not being heterosexual, even if you choose celibacy or a relationship with the opposite gender. It really needs to stop.
Deluded — I agree; there is no good and no reason in hating people who are different.
And trying to encourage self-respect and chastity to a culture that does not it believe in these should not get us branded as haters and bigots, either. That goes for gays and contraception-using Christians alike.
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Praxedes says:
January 27, 2014 at 12:58 pm
Has anyone seen what they think is an accurate count of how many people marched?
I’ ve searched the web, with no luck. All I can find is the estimated 600,000 who were expected to attend, before the weather took its toll.
The National Park Service used to provide the press with scientific estimates of large crowds in the Capitol Mall, until the Clinton Administration ordered them to stop due to the embarrassingly large number of people at the March For Life.
Well maybe, just maybe Del, of those who oppose homosexual behavior could refrain from speaking about LGBT people as if we are slobbering animals, y’all wouldn’t get accused of being haters so much.
You know gay people actually care about those they are in relationships with. But if you listened to what those who oppose homosexual relationships say, you would think that literally all gay people do is have sex and don’t have any feelings of love and care for each other. People are not likely to listen to you if you don’t even portray them correctly. I don’t think homosexual behavior is right, but I don’t think anyone will listen if thy are constantly portrayed terribly.
Thanks, Del. I saw an estimate yesterday at a couple thousand. LOL.
Here’s a site that supports, has tolerance for and opposes the bullying of those who are ex-gay:
http://pfox.org/default.html
Deluded Lib Pro-Lifer says:
January 27, 2014 at 1:35 pm
Well maybe, just maybe Del, of those who oppose homosexual behavior could refrain from speaking about LGBT people as if we are slobbering animals, y’all wouldn’t get accused of being haters so much.
I ignored you politely the first time. But since you slapped my twice, I must respond.
I never said that homosexuals were animals. Don’t twist my words.
I meant to argue against the attitude that says humans are animals, and therefore slaves to whatever sexual urges we have.
I mean that teenagers are not animals who need contraception because they’re going to have sex anyway.
I mean that married people are not animals who are going to cheat on their spouses at every opportunity.
I mean that married couples are not animals who have to use contraception to space their children prudently.
I mean that homosexuals are not animals who have to act out their sexual urges.
And so on. Pedophiles are not animals who have to assault children.
I mean that very human person chooses how he or she will live out his sexual life, like a rational being.
Since we are not animals and we are free to choose, Christianity reminds us that there are two good choices blessed by God:
1) Faithful marriage that is open to receiving children.
2) Chaste celibacy (often with a life that offers loving service to the world).
Those other choices often bring unhappiness and harm to the individuals who embrace those habits. And so we do harm when we suggest that “you have to follow your urges, because you’re just an animal.”
So let me be clear: I am not saying that active homosexuals are behaving like animals. I am not saying that contracepting normal couples are behaving like animals.
I am saying that people who have chosen these habits can make better choices for themselves.
Praxedes says:
January 27, 2014 at 1:57 pm
Thanks, Del. I saw an estimate yesterday at a couple thousand. LOL.
There is an accurate count of the pro-abortion protesters at the steps of the Supreme Court. About 15 persons.
But they got some great shots in the Associated Press report.
Del I didn’t explain correctly what bothers me about such statements, my bad. I apologize. The subject is a tough one for me to discuss dispassionately.
I see a real problem with Christians refusing to acknowledge what LGBT people are actually giving up if they “leave the homosexual lifestyle”. It’s not just sex and controlling sexual urges, if that were all it was to it, it wouldn’t be near so difficult. It also requires giving up real loving relationships. I wish there was some way to get y’all to see how painful it is. To be congratulated on leaving a relationship when your heart is just smashed to pieces and you miss them every day. Christians focus so much on why it is wrong to be gay that a lot of you completely ignore the pain and trauma in leaving people you love behind and watching them be with someone else.
And then there’s the issue with people being disgusted by what you are, even absent any behaviors. That really needs to stop as well. But I don’t know, it seems people are unwilling to look at the issue in a compassionate way at all. Which drives me crazy because on the whole you’re all pretty compassionate people, I don’t know where it goes when the subject of homosexuality comes up.
And I really wish that people would stop bringing up pedophilia when we are having a conversation about consensual sexual behaviors, however wrong. It doesn’t further discussion and makes it difficult to think clearly IMO. Please.
I have a friend with same-sex attraction who is committed to living a chaste life. He associates with like-minded friends who also struggle with same-sex attraction. It is similar, in a way, to the alcoholics in AA who support each other in their effort to live sober.
My friend also has some difficult personality quirks. He is sensitive and suffers a great deal from people who are cruel to him about his orientation, with no respect for the actual strength of his character. There is no shortage of those bullies. This is intolerable, and Christians need to stand in solidarity against the bullies. It is a scandal, when Christians are the bullies.
As to living chastely and not being able to indulge ourselves in loving relationships with the people we desire: Everyone struggles with this. Marital fidelity is hard work. Chastity is hard work. That’s why contraception and the animal-sex paradigm is so popular: It gives people excuses to avoid the hard work of being human.
A fair way to put it (one that always gets me into trouble with Christians) is this: A married couple that uses contraception so they can enjoy infertile sex is just as unnatural as a same-sex couple. It frustrates God’s plan for us in exactly the same way. It turns God’s plan for love and sex and marriage into the self-indulgent use of another person for one’s own pleasure.
As to pedophiles and rapists: If our culture rejected the notion that all people are mere animals who are enslaved to our sexual urges, the our very culture would be a stronger deterrent to criminal sex. We would have a firm moral standing for punishing the criminals, when they really are behaving like animals.
The contraceptive culture reduces other persons into objects for one’s pleasure. As long as we are contraceptive culture, rape and pedophilia and abortion are going to be persistent problems.
Michael Voris is indeed over-reacting. From my experience, those who have one foot in eventually bring the other foot and cross the “doorstep.” Ongoing participation in these marches will do wonders in decreasing the small numbers of contraception and homosexuality prone attitudes of those participants, without discouraging them from wanting to express being pro-life. The mere participation as Jill pointed out, is evangelizing.
Why hasn’t there been any post on the big marches on this blog except for this very tangential one?
Especially as we can’t get info on the marches in the mainstream media, I was hoping to hear about it on this site. Still hoping!
I also agree with you, Jill, that Voris is overreacting.
We can love the people with same-sex attraction by telling them the truth: This habit that you find so attractive will not make you happy.
Whoa. There are plenty of miserable straight people and plenty of happy gay people!
I thought Sundays were the day for funnies? Voris is a caricature.
Hundreds of species of animals practice homosexuality. Only one species of animal practices homophobia.
Hey Del thank you for acknowledging that non-heterosexuals do often receive poor treatment at the hands of those who are supposed to love them. Not many people who oppose homosexuality seem to acknowledge this so I appreciate it.
I’m just gonna skip over the whole thing about contraception and pedophilia, because I don’t think I can write a constructive comment about that.
I do know, however, that many Catholic clergy say that using condoms in a marriage relationship for the purpose of reducing the chance of transmitting a disease that one of the spouses has is legitimate use of condoms, as long as the goal isn’t preventing conception. The principle of double effect and all that. So I think the whole “you’re damaged goods and should never have an intimate sexual relationship for your entire life of you have an STD” thing is just silliness and unnecessary. Using prophylactics to protect the non-infected spouse, like if the husband had herpes but the wife didn’t, is legitimate.
Based on only this quote (because I have no interest in hearing his full spiel), it seems like Voris doesn’t recognize that conversion can happen in stages. I became pro-life years before I came to understand the truth about human sexuality and what that meant for contraception, homosexual sex, premarital sex, etc. Praise God all those people that Voris wants to lump into the culture of death have taken a first step into the culture of life.
Good comment Lrning. What really upsets me is the truth that Kelsey pointed out. Stuff like this is why so many dismiss us right out of hand. Because if you don’t agree with ALL parts of a conservative Catholic or Evangelical ideology, you’re part of the problem no matter what you do to try and protect unborn babies. It’s rather ridiculous to expect a diverse group like pro-lifers to hold all the same opinions on other matters. It’s holding us back to alienate those who don’t agree with other parts of this specific moral code,
Not that I think it’s right that a liberal, or atheist, or gay person dismisses pro-life arguments because of this stuff, but it’s human nature and understandable. We need to do a better job being welcoming to all people, not just straight people, or Christians, or those who use NFP, etc.
Hi Phillymiss:
“Plenty of happy gay people” is the funniest thing I’ve read today. You know what the term gay means right…
If you are against abortion, I want to give you a hug and say “right on, my brother/sister!” I can disapprove of other things you do and still very much admire your pro-life stance. We don’t have to agree on everything, do we? Many of you would not like to hear about my very strong opinion on how you ought to raise your children, the reverse of which I actually do believe contributes to the culture of death. But I am not about to call anyone faux-lifers if they stand up for people in utero.
Yes Lifejoy we all have our own opinions about what contributes to the culture of death. I believe killing and mistreating animals contributes to it, but I don’t accuse you all of not being really pro-life because y’all eat meat lol, and I don’t believe in spanking children and I think it’s damaging but I respect that other people have other views on the subject and those who spank are just as pro-life as I am. We all need to try and have more kindness and understanding for all other pro-lifers and be welcoming to those who aren’t the “traditional” pro-lifer as well as those who are.
I do worry that all this infighting and “you’re not a REAL pro-lifer” stuff is not only keeping other people from listening to our views on pro-life, it’s tearing down the movement from the inside. I just think people should try and share their views in a more affirming and kind way instead of hurting people even if they are sinning or wrong.
I do worry that all this infighting and “you’re not a REAL pro-lifer” stuff is not only keeping other people from listening to our views on pro-life, it’s tearing down the movement from the inside.
I agree 100 percent! I just wonder why so many Christians are so obsessed with homosexuality. Over Christmas I heard a black man who is studying to be a minister talk about getting homosexuals to “change”. In the black community 75 percent of children are born to single women. Isn’t fornication a great a sin as homosexuality? But I guess that would offend many of his future parishioners, many of whom are “baby mommas” and daddys.
Thomas, I guess I should have said “content gay people!”
I just wonder why so many Christians are so obsessed with homosexuality.
I would like to add that maybe some of the Christians that you believe are so “obsessed” with homosexuality are really Christians who see the slippery slope that homosexual “marriage” can lead to and actually believe in what the Bible teaches. Legalized abortion did not come about over night either. There were other factors that led to it.
I know Christians who believe unmarried folks who are fornicating can change too, myself included. Why would a Christian not believe that someone living a homosexual lifestyle can’t change? They can. And they do. And they are hated by some people when they do change and live according to Bible teachings.
I’ve been accused of being obsessed with abortion too so I guess there’s that. I also have been very much a participant in the Culture on Death through my words, actions and choices but am still a prolifer. So there’s that too.
A prolifer is a sinner who realizes that life begins at conception and that that unique little life should be legally protected from that point on. As I and others on here have said numerous times, if you let other issues keep you from the task at hand of saving innocent human life, that’s on you, not on anyone who disagrees with you on other topics.
I know a lot of “content” sinners, btw.
Why would a Christian not believe that someone living a homosexual lifestyle can’t change?
What exactly is the homosexual “lifestyle”? Not all gay people parade around in leather and live in the “gayborhood.” Many are in loving relationships.
I can’t remember a time when I was not heterosexual. I’ve never been attracted to other women. A “gay gene” hasn’t been found, but maybe it’s the same for gay people — that they just are attracted to people of the same gender? I just don’t know.
What exactly is the homosexual “lifestyle”?
People of the same gender participating in sexual behaviors with each other.
Not all gay people parade around in leather and live in the “gayborhood.” Many are in loving relationships.
Didn’t say they do. Didn’t say they aren’t.
But people can choose to change and they should be respected if they do.
If you keep choosing to discuss homosexuality with me, phillymiss, would it be fair of me to say that you are obsessed with homosexuality? Or do you believe that because I am a Christian and believe homosexual behaviors are sinful that it is me who is obsessed with it?
Hey Jack, I see above that you mention you are worried.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=t9EE0_gd8OA
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iPUmE-tne5U
I like happy music! Thanks Prax!
Btw I’ve noticed recently that forcing myself to watch funny movies and listen to happy music has been helping my depression a bit. It’s something to think about if you have trouble being positive like I do. Surround yourself by happy and amusing things.
I would like to gently suggest that everyone look at their words and examine if they are positive, uplifting, and constructive. You can speak what you think is true, even about sin, without condemning or hurting. Attempt to put yourself in the shoes of the person you are speaking about. Think “if a gay/bi person heard me say this, would they feel loved as a human being even though I don’t agree with homosexual behavior?”.
We can ALL do better at making this a more inclusive movement, and world. None of us are perfect and it’s not solely the responsibility of other people to change.
Happy to hear your depression is being lifted a bit, Jack!
Love Walking on Sunshine! WooHoo!
Thanks Prax. I think people, including myself, forget that depression is a disease, not a character flaw. And like any other disease, your lifestyle choices can influence the severity of it (not always enough, but it can help). Exercise, a good diet, and surrounding yourself with positive things can help even very severe depression. Of course, you might need medication still, just like a diabetic with a healthy lifestyle still might need medication, but lifestyle choices can make the difference between suicidal ideation daily or just suicidal ideation every couple days lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhnPVP23rzo
Timely, no?
Historically, legally, and philosophically contraception is at the heart of abortion and sodomy rights. All the pro-life marches in the world are worthless without an opposition to contraception. Voris and Church Militant T are spot on!
I have so much respect for the atheist and LGBT folks who are so committed to this cause that they tolerate abuse and attacks from folks like the author of this piece and Del among others. I may not be 100% sure how I feel about the issue, or agree with them on everything, but respect, yeah – Jack, as well as a friend of mine who actually spoke at the march – and is pro marriage equality and atheist, and others in that supposed “Culture of Death” (LOL).
I definitely think the contraceptive mindset contributes to abortion. But life does not begin before conception – that is science. Equating murder with condom use just makes the pro-life movement sound ridiculous.
“All the pro-life marches in the world are worthless without an opposition to contraception.”
Hmm … Tell that to all the moms and babies and dads who were saved from abortion through the support of pregnancy resource centers and sidewalk counselors. Pro-life work that does not include opposition to contraception saves lives and souls. And that is worthwhile.
Amanda, maybe you can see why pro-life is so utterly important. LGBT people and atheists certainly don’t stick around the pro-life movement because it’s a place where we’re popular, lol. But babies lives are more important than our feelings. I hope you can see that, that’s why we stay and fight even when it feels unwelcoming. Only something extremely important, like protecting babies.
Amanda, you might want to check out http://www.plagal.org/ and http://www.secularprolife.org/ (our very own commenter Kelsey runs Secular Pro-life). You can also look into Democrats for Life. They are organizations with pro-life information and a community for those who don’t fit as well in the mainstream pr0-life movement. You do not have to be heterosexual, or a Christian, or conservative to believe in protecting unborn babies.
And yes I realize there’s a problem in the movement with bullying and stigmatization of especially LGBT people, but also atheists and liberals or others who don’t fit the mold, but the vast majority of pro-lifers do love and care for all people and don’t agree with the vocal minority like Voris who believes that our sexual orientation or condom usage makes us part of the Culture of Death. And remember, it’s not about us, it’s about saving the babies from death. I’ll take a billion insults to my orientation and religious beliefs and I’ll never leave until babies are protected.
There is no such thing as homosexual marriage.
Marriage is the union of a man and a woman.
Truthseeker. There is no such thing as a homosexual Catholic sacramental (or many other forms of Christian covenants) marriage. There is, demonstrably, such a thing as a homosexual civil marriage, this is fact. Not a moral judgement, I’m not saying it is right or wrong. But it is simply a fact that civil marriage for same sex couples exists in several countries and US states.
Some countries even have legal polygamy, so other forms of civil or even religious marriage exist that are not between one man and one woman. It’s perfectly valid to state that under canonical law this is not a marriage in the church, but it definitely exists as a concept and a legal term.
“I just wonder why so many Christians are so obsessed with homosexuality. Over Christmas I heard a black man who is studying to be a minister talk about getting homosexuals to “change”. In the black community 75 percent of children are born to single women. Isn’t fornication a great a sin as homosexuality? But I guess that would offend many of his future parishioners, many of whom are “baby mommas” and daddys. ”
I’ve been thinking about this since you made this comment. I really don’t understand why it’s picked on so much more than the much more prevalent and overall much more damaging to society sins of divorce and remarriage (excepting cases of adultery) and fornication (especially promiscuity) between heterosexuals. Which couples contribute the babies who end up dead in abortion? Obviously not the gay ones (except in rare cases). How is gay marriage morally worse than a second marriage (except in cases of infidelity)? My Bible doesn’t mention gay marriage (though it does say homosexuality is wrong so I’m assuming that gay marriage in the church is wrong as well), but it is very clear that divorcing your spouse for reasons other than infidelity and remarrying someone else is a sin, you’re living in sin with that second “spouse”, and that second marriage is not legitimate. The Bible has a gazillion more verses about the sinfulness of heterosexual fornication than it does about homosexuals. Well, not a gazillion, but I know sexual purity wasn’t only something for LGBT people, there’s plenty in the Bible that is very clear that heterosexuals are not to be having sex with anyone other than one spouse.
So I don’t get why people focus so much on LGBT people. They focus on us so much that a lot of them think we’re wrong just for having the orientation, even if there’s no current homosexual behavior. I just don’t understand. I can’t think of any other “mainstream” sin that people are still disgusted with you for NOT engaging in it, just being wired that way. No one has rules against people who sometimes have road rage holding office in church. One of the pastors at my church is divorced and remarried. How is that okay?
I don’t think it’s Biblical, I’ve looked everywhere in the Bible that can be remotely tied to homosexuality and I’ve not seen any evidence that God sees us as worse than any other sinner. Actually if I had to pick the sins that God hates most just by how often they are mentioned I’d go with being unloving, lying, and being uncharitable. But I don’t think people are banned from church offices because they are uncharitable. I don’t think teens generally get kicked out of their homes because they act unloving. I don’t remember people being beaten or called slurs because they struggle with lying, in general.
So yeah I don’t get it phillymiss. I know it’s hurtful though and causes a lot of damage. Like, I’m the most ridiculous over-sharer ever on this blog, y’all know way too much about my personal life lol, but it took me three years almost to admit I’m not completely straight when I was just fine with admitting that I have all manner of other, much worse character flaws. I don’t see why people can’t understand that, yes, LGBT people are viewed and treated as worse than other sinners, and no, that’s not okay. You can speak biblical truth without bullying and causing so much harm. And yes it’s keeping LGBT people from the pro-life movement and their supporters as well (which is an even bigger issues, there are much more supporters than there are LGBT people). And I just don’t understand the reasoning behind it. Go blame hurricanes on remarried couples, please, or go tell uncharitable people they belong to the culture of death (which I do believe they contribute to it, personally). I just don’t understand how something that is only present in like 5 – 8% or so of the population (maybe a little more if we include ALL same sex attractions, not just people who are clearly oriented gay or bi, it’s a spectrum) not only garners so much attention, it garners so much disgust and fear. I just don’t get it. But I’m going to continue to be incognito at church because it is nice that no one knows yet there. I am quite afraid of being found out. But then when people find out you’re closeted you’re accused of lying, so there’s really no way to win. I don’t think that should be how people should feel when going to church, all hopeless about it.
Very good post, Jack.
Jack ~ Churches are most certainly out of line if they teach that homosexuality is THE sin, to the neglect of the long list of others which are equally abhorrent to God and separate us from Him and His will for our lives. While it may be true that we sinners may accept all kinds of other sins as benign and become complacent in using His law as a mirror in our lives, overall I don’t think most churches preach lying and being unloving as ok. That, I believe, is why some churches zero in on homosexuality, because it is considered ok by so many.. I have never ONCE heard anyone in my church body mention homosexuality without also mentioning heterosexual impurity, and honestly, that is not often at all – the blanket reference of sexual sins is the norm. Lying, being angry, greedy, vain, putting anything before God – these are emphasized. I am so glad to hear you are going to church.
People think shacking up is okay. People thinking remarriage and divorce is okay (a LOT think it’s okay). People think that drinking enough alcohol to get drunk is okay. People think many sins are completely acceptable. And none of them get treated the same as gay people do overall. It’s simply untrue to claim otherwise. Or maybe you just don’t see it. Maybe you have to be one to see it I guess.
How many divorced and remarried couples in your church are considered to be living a moral life while gay couples are considered living in sin? How many times have you seen a pastor who is remarried and it’s seen as just fine. This is stuff I see just on the treating homosexuality as a worse sin level, there are other things I see. Heterosexuals don’t usually get accused of “infiltrating” churches to spread the straight agenda. It really is everywhere, this bias and unfairness. I’m pretty sure you’ve never had to sit in church and here how engaging in straight premarital sex was similar to pedophilia because it was an aberration and abnormal and unnatural. Stuff like that. It’s just overwhelming and insidious and no one sees it or listens to what it feels like. That’s why I said, incognito forever, they’ll probably figure it out anyway.
Not sure if you are responding to my comment specifically, DLPL. But if so, that would be why I said those churches (and meant the people associated with them) are out of line. I do know that many if not most churches/Christians do a terrible job of this – either completely condoning homosexuality or singling it out. It must be frustrating for you. It is also frustrating when you discount the people and churches who do understand how to balance this. I was simply telling you my experience, not arguing with yours.
Sorry I went on rant mode, I didn’t mean to direct that at you and I am sorry I did.
I was genuinely curious though. How does your church treat remarried people (who didn’t divorce for Biblical reasons)? Are they living in sin or are their “marriages” considered legit? I am actually curious on that one. I’ve never found a church that doesn’t consider remarriage okay or at least not as bad as being gay.
I really do try to be positive and give people props for things like comparing adultery to homosexuality instead of like pedophilia or rape (though I don’t think that’s a great analogy either, it’s at least much less cruel) . I try to show people how you can be against the behavior without making the people either engaging in the behavior or simply being wired that feeling like trash. But I do get overwhelmed because it’s literally everywhere, and people will refuse to see why their behavior is unfair and hurtful. And I get so tired of those who insist if you can’t be straight (orientation-wise) you are still a sinner and perverted and all that. Or those who just think you’re gross otherwise. Idk. It’s just exhausting and it never goes away. Aaaannnddd I’m whining. Sorry. I don’t really like church but it’s really my last resort.
No worries, Jack. God doesn’t mind being your last resort. I will respond mańana. Must get sleep for a change.
Jack: People think many sins are completely acceptable. And none of them get treated the same as gay people do overall.
True, Jack – it’s cultural. Yet it’s changing fast; I’m surprised how fast….
I don’t mean in general culture, I mean in religious groups and churches and stuff. I’m not talking about society in general. The wider culture is getting a lot better I believe, though there’s still some major issues. I was just talking about in regards to Christianity and gay people attending church and such.
So to answer your specific question Jack, my church treats all people the same. We believe in the Biblical reasons for divorce, but as you said, we also believe in not lying, not being unloving, etc. Those last two examples would also imply that we call sin sin, no matter how it might sour some people. And yet, no one fact gathers or confronts people about what they might suspect. We’re all sinners and that includes people who talk about others negatively. I do think you conflate cultural Christians and/or what happens in the secular-Christian interface at times, versus what really happens within a given church congregation.
“. I do think you conflate cultural Christians and/or what happens in the secular-Christian interface at times, versus what really happens within a given church congregation.”
When I talk about how Christians treat LGBT people I’m almost always talking about what I’ve personally experienced (or, every once and a while, what a friend or acquaintance has personally experienced) at church or from Christians. I’ve been to several different churches. I find them pretty uncomfortable places, I don’t understand where you’re all getting the family and peace thing. But thank you for answering my question I’m glad your church treats people equally.
Well, Jack, that saddens me. I’m sorry. The only things I find uncomfortable about church are the pews (and when my kids spill cheerios all over the floor). It truly is a joyful, peaceful place and group. Please don’t let us mere sinful humans keep you from your personal relationship with God. It just shows how much we ALL need His grace.
It’s fine, I don’t really need a church family, I was just hoping. And I think God and Christians are separate things. Jesus was a pretty nice guy at least.
Deluded lib,
Heterosexual couples getting divorced and remarried is treated differently then homosexuality because the two have almost nothing in common. Why are homosexuals treated differently than blasphemers even though both are sins?….because about the only thing they have in common is that both are considered to be sin.
Yes truth we have had this conversation before. You think heterosexuals who remarry are still possibly sinners but at least they are still normal. And LGBT people are never normal. I got it. I still think it’s wrong to accept and treat many second marriages as legitimate when they are obviously living in sin according to the Bible. Jesus himself condemned divorce and remarriage, while he didn’t say anything about gays.
Deluded, check out this article:
http://downtrend.com/brian-carey/biblical-scholar-smacks-down-piers-morgan-when-asked-to-explain-how-jesus-condemned-homosexuality/?utm_source=Outbrain
And homosexual relationships and second marriages (with no Biblical reason for divorce) do have a lot in common. They are both living in sin, and they are both sexual sins. There’s no justification for accepting second marriages while condemning homosexual relationships at all, it’s just hypocrisy and sin.
Truthseeker, I meant Jesus didn’t specially single out gays. Of course he considers homosexual acts a sin. But he didn’t single them out as any more sinful than anything else. He DID specifically single out divorce and remarriage, though. It’s humans who twisted that around and made homosexuality worse than divorce. Not Jesus.
You all rarely believe me when I complain that people see gays worse than everyone else I know, but it’s true.
http://www.gcmwatch.com/10459/some-thinking-questions-about-homosexuality
Pretty much everything that this article complains about could be applied to divorce and remarriage too. And people have to stop pretending that only LGBT people “wear their sin as an identity”. First, your orientation itself isn’t a sin, and second, yes other sins are worn as identity. If John was married to Sarah and leaves her for no Biblical reason and marries Kate, he’ll introduce himself as “Kate’s husband” when he is really still Sarah’s husband in God’s eyes. His sin has become his identity,
And I think this one is one of those groups who believe you can change everyone’s sexual orientation too, and that it’s sinful just to be gay.
And then there’s this, from one if those “ex-gays”: http://m.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=36946
So homosexuality isn’t the worst sin but it totally is. Whatever. I’ll accept I’m worse than everyone else when people start paying attention to the Christian divorce rate. And it’s absolutely undeniable that divorce and remarriage and heterosexual fornication has caused far more damage to the family and church than gays could ever hope to do. Especially because it’s usually destroying children’s lives. So maybe you can see why gay Christians feel so uncomfortable in church, because we ARE treated like the worst sinners, we are treated like we’ve caused untold damage to the world while other objectively more damaging sins are glossed over or completely ignored. /rant.
“For someone who is a true born again christian but who continues to struggle and battle and lose the war – even after years of ex-gay therapy and live-in programs and deliverance ministry, etc., after all of that- as sick as it sounds i would have say that suicide is an option. A horrible one but an option the would keep him from continuing on this path.”
This is one of the comments on that article. Is it sad this isn’t the first time, or the second, I’ve heard people advocate gays just go ahead and kill themselves if they can’t make themselves straight? Where do you hear people who struggle with idk pornography told to off themselves if they still have the urge to view porn? Seriously. Imagine being a closeted gay or bi Christian and hearing people talk about you like this all the time and you can’t really say anything else people will know you’re “one of them”. And people say I just need to le it go and expect and accept that kind of stuff. No can do. I wouldn’t let people be treated like this, especially by Christians which is where you’re supposed to be safest, even if it wasn’t personal for me.
Jack, the only sin I have seen that was specifically singled out in the Bible as being ‘worse’ than the other sins is “grieving the Holy Spirit”.
And marriage is between a man and a woman and God. When I first made my vows to God that I would always love and be faithful to my wife, we were not at a church or at a Justice of the Peace. And in my eyes we married. In the same sense, there are many people who get married in a church and say “I do” without ever really making any meaningful personal vows to God. IMO these people never really entered into a religious/spiritual marriage in the first place.
Great truth whatever. Still doesn’t make second marriages legitimate. It is convenient to believe some people “never really married” because then they don’t have to celibate their entire lives after divorce. It’s convenience. Don’t see it in the Bible.
Deluded Lib, Do you understand that a man and a woman joining together in making those vows to one another and asking God to bless their union is an integral part of marriage? Would you also agree that many if not most marriages in today’s society do not include that as a part of the union?
It never fails to amaze me that so many people have so little sympathy for homosexuality and that struggle, but will bend over backwards to make up fake justifications for why certain things are Biblically justified when they are quite clearly not. “I got married in a church, said my vows before God and man, lived a Christian life, lived with my wife for ten years and had three kids, but I wasn’t really married, so it’s okay if I leave my wife and marry this 20 year old!” Lol.
I’m not picking on you truthseeker, I’ve heard that particular justification for the hypocrisy and sinfulness of allowing second marriages be considered legitimate from many people. It’s an excuse. It’s a justification, and it’s ridiculous.
And I’m not speaking of people who have secular marriages or make vows that don’t involve God (though if they aren’t really married, they seem to be committing the sin of adultery). But I don’t buy it for one second for Christians, you don’t get to magically decide you were never married because you realize you’ll be lonely if you leave your spouse. It’s justifying of sin, and it’s the same level of “not okay” as approving of homosexual behavior. And it’s WAY more damaging to allow divorce to be seen as okay. It ruins children’s lives, the way that people break up so easily over nothing.
Jack ~ Whoever wrote that comment about suicide is a whacko. They may call themselves a Christian, but a follower of Christ they are not. Jesus said himself that we will know believers by their fruit.
I know, Lifejoy, I don’t consider them a Christian. Heck, I consider myself more of a Christian than them and I have very confused views on the whole matter. It doesn’t change the fact that is what LGBT people have to deal with in churches (usually not THAT cruel, but there’s little bigotries and cruelties everywhere). People don’t seem to notice if it’s not directed at them, but it does keep people from feeling safe and accepted.
Truthseeker, true or false that divorce and remarriage, and heterosexual fornication, has cause untold amounts of damage to the family and church, up to and including abortion, massive amounts of STDs, fatherless children, etc?
“Truthseeker, true or false that divorce and remarriage, and heterosexual fornication, has cause untold amounts of damage to the family and church ”
If you had left it at the above I would have said TRUE. But I don’t know that divorce has caused untold amounts of abortion cause I have never personally seen women get abortions because they were divorced. Is that what you were implying?
That’s why I included “heterosexual fornication” in there as well. I could have included heterosexual adultery as well, since I have known that some women will abort when they get pregnant with someone other than their husband’s baby, or a husband will pressure the mistress to abort to cover up the affair.
Anyway, the point is that these sins cause a ton of damage, and it’s wrong and sinful to try to justify them and try to make up ways for them to be “okay”. If we’re called to follow God’s words and his plans for life than we don’t get to pick and choose. We don’t get to degrade and bash on homosexuals while giving other sins a free pass just because they are more common and prevalent.
Nobody is picking and choosing. My definition of marriage does not mean I justify abortion or give adultery a pass. You are making a logic leap here and losing me.
““I got married in a church, said my vows before God and man, lived a Christian life, lived with my wife for ten years and had three kids, but I wasn’t really married, so it’s okay if I leave my wife and marry this 20 year old!”
Deluded Lib,When you divorced your wife was it of great concern that you were breaking a vow that you made to God?
That was a hypothetical, Truthseeker, not talking about me. I only have two kids, me and my ex-wife were married five years, and I had a Biblical reason for divorcing her. I believe that I can have a legitimate second marriage according to the Bible.
My hypothetical is based on something I’ve seen a lot. I believe, based on the Bible, that God judges second marriages as sinful when you consummate your first marriage. This is what I glean from reading the Bible. I don’t believe the justifications you are bringing up are Biblical at all. Some silly idea of not “really” being married seems to me like sinful justification. And it’s hypocritical.
And it wouldn’t matter if it was a “great concern” someone is breaking a vow to God. Sin doesn’t change based on how you feel about it, otherwise a lot of people wouldn’t be sinning at all.
Just answer the question. When you divorced your wife was it of great concern to you that you were breaking a vow you made to God?
No, truthseeker, I didn’t believe in God at the time. But that doesn’t change the fact that I was married. We consummated the marriage, had children, and made public vows of commitment. It’s just silliness to pretend we weren’t married.
But like I said I had biblical reasons for divorcing her, so I have a chance to have a legitimate second marriage. If there was no infidelity then I would not have a legitimate second marriage. The Bible is clear on that point.
The fact is that if you never invited God into your marriage with your spouse then you were never married in the spiritual sense.
I don’t see any justification for that. I see that “a man leaves home and cleaves to his wife” I take that to mean consummation and commitment. I think pretending some people aren’t married is sinful justification and a way to justify all the remarried Christians. It’s pretty cowardly that churches ignore and justify such a damaging sin just because it’s common and they don’t want to lose parishioners.
“I think pretending some people aren’t married is sinful justification and a way to justify all the remarried Christians.”
I think people are deluding themselves by pretending they are married in God’s eyes even when they don’t believe in God.
Well, it’s not just non-Christians who divorce for no biblical reason Truthseeker. TONS of Christians divorce. The divorce rate for Christians is about equal to non-Christians. You mean to tell me that millions of Christians weren’t really married, even though they made their vows while they were a Christian, pray every day, consummate their marriage, etc? Ridiculous.
Just another thing where some sinners are coddled and others are bullied.
I have a feeling y’all will like me even less as a Christian than you did as an agnostic lol.
Jack, Do you still claim your ‘marriage’ was legitimate in the eyes of God or of the church?
The reason I can say with confidence that I will never divorce my wife is because we vowed to God and to one another.
“Do you still claim your ‘marriage’ was legitimate in the eyes of God or of the church?”
Truthseeker, you are aware that God commands believers not to leave their non-believing spouse, right? That says to me that God sees even the marriages of non-believers as important. You seem to think that God only cares about marriages that involve two believers. That isn’t Biblical as far as I can tell.
Now, if it’s a completely secular marriage with no vows to God, I can see that it’s not sacred in the way a religious marriage is. BUT I still think God wants that marriage to work and he obviously hates divorce. I think you have very little respect for marriage if you think that God is fine with people just leaving, that it’s not a sin unless they specifically vowed to God.
And, for the millionth time, I was talking about Christians who divorce. You’re not going to convince me, no matter how much you want to gloss over the sin of divorce and remarriage (which is adultery), that millions of Christians somehow forgot to vow to God, so their divorce and remarriage is legitimate. Nope. They are living in sin with their second spouse. It’s very clear in the Bible. Their marriages are no more legitimate than a homosexual relationship.
“Truthseeker, you are aware that God commands believers not to leave their non-believing spouse, right?”
Yes, and I agree completely with that because if I make a vow to God I cannot break that vow due to my spouses lack of faith. My goal at that point should be to evangelize my spouse and help her on her journey to God.
“I think you have very little respect for marriage if you think that God is fine with people just leaving, that it’s not a sin unless they specifically vowed to God.”
A marriage without God is no more than a legal contract.
“You’re not going to convince me, no matter how much you want to gloss over the sin of divorce and remarriage (which is adultery), that millions of Christians somehow forgot to vow to God, so their divorce and remarriage is legitimate.”
I don’t really want to convince you of anything and I am not speaking for millions of other Christians; I am just explaining marriage to you from my perspective. And if these millions were true believers and they had made a vow to God then they would have great concern about breaking a vow they made to God.
No, I don’t think even secular marriage is just a piece of paper. I think God takes even secular marriages seriously, at least compared to cohabitation and such. I believe my view is backed up by the way marriage is treated in the Bible. It’s a much bigger deal to get divorced as a Christian, of course, but any sin is a much bigger deal when a Christian commits it imo.
Do you think God would rather two atheists (let’s assume they have children) stay marred or get divorced?
“Their marriages are no more legitimate than a homosexual relationship.”
That is just crazy talk. I can see where you could consider a second marriage to be sinful but I do not possess the liberal mind-bending techniques required to make the leap you make when you call it no more than a homosexual relationship. Looking at it from the perspective of the three components of a legitimate marriage; a man and a woman and God; By definition homosexuals can NEVER qualify.
Nope. A man or woman who is still married to someone else can NEVER have a legitimate marriage with a new person. It’s no more legitimate than a homosexual relationship. It’s adultery, and adultery is sinful and definitely not legitimate. And it causes more damage if children are involved.
I know it hurts for a divorced and remarried person to hear that their marriage isn’t legitimate, but even if it hurts that is Biblical truth. If you’re going to follow the Bible, you have to follow it, not just the parts that are comfortable.
“Do you think God would rather two atheists (let’s assume they have children) stay married or get divorced?”
God gives us free will; including the ability to reject God being a part of our lives. I would guess that God would want them to stay married and repent.
“I would guess tha God would want them to stay married an repent.”
Yes, obviously God would want them to stay married and convert. So you can see what I’m saying, that God takes even secular marriages more seriously than he does other sexual relationships. Commitment is important even between non-Christians. But obviously it’s much more grave when a Christian with no Biblical reason divorces and remarries. They are committing adultery, it’s there in black and white and perfectly clear.
Truthseeker, sex between an unmarried heterosexual couple and a homosexual couple is no morally different either. There’s no Biblical justification for treating them differently. And an illegitimate relationship is an illegitimate relationship, no matter if it involves two people of opposite genders or the same genders, or more than two people.
“A man or woman who is still married to someone else can NEVER have a legitimate marriage with a new person.”
Of course they can’t. That would be polygamy. I am taking a break. Have a good night. The peace of Jesus be with you always.
“Of course they can’t. That would be polygamy.”
Yes and that’s why Christians who divorce their first spouse (unless adultery was involved) cannot remarry and must remain celibate. They are still married to their first spouse in the eyes of God. Their second marriage is illegitimate and sinful. They are living in sin, just like a homosexual couple is. It can’t be explained away, it’s crystal clear in the Bible. And I believe that churches act with hypocrisy and sin when they are fine with this serious sin but condemn homosexuality and LGBT people all the time.
Good night truth God bless you.
“Truthseeker, sex between an unmarried heterosexual couple and a homosexual couple is no morally different either.”
Deluded One, that is just false for obvious reasons. Man joining together with woman was a part of God’s plan but can be sinful in some cases. Homosexuality was not a part of God’s plan and is sinful in all cases. They are not even close to morally equivalent.
Show me Biblical justification that it’s actually any worse and I might believe you. What I see is a few verses condemning homosexuality, and a LOT of verses condemning wrong heterosexual behavior. I see no justification for homosexuality being worse.
And homosexual actions may not be part of God’s plan for good in the world, but homosexuals were. He allowed us gay and bi people to exist. We were part of his plan and aren’t aberrant or unnatural, and same sex urges are neutral in my opinion as long as you don’t act on them, and are not deserving of condemnation or disgust.
“Yes and that’s why Christians who divorce their first spouse (unless adultery was involved) cannot remarry and must remain celibate”
I would go so far as to say even if adultery was committed they are not allowed to remarry. Divorce was not allowed for these things in the beginning and God granted this right to divorce only because of the hardness of our hearts. And now I am really gone for the night. It was good chatting with you. ts
Actually I would argue that heterosexual sin has worse consequences than homosexuality for the world. Heterosexuals can make new life through their sexual activities and that’s not something to be used lightly. When heterosexuals commit sexual sin (or bisexuals with a member of the opposite sex), they are abusing their ability to create a new human being and being cavalier with that new life that could result. That’s a big deal. Homosexual sin only possibly damages the participants, heterosexual sin possibly damages a new life. And abortion wouldn’t exist without heterosexual sin. So people might gloss over heterosexual sin, but I think there is plenty of evidence that it is more damaging for the world and equivalent to homosexual sin.
“I would go so far as to say even if adultery was committed they are not allowed to remarry. Divorce was not allowed for these things in the beginning and God granted this right to divorce only because of the hardness of our hearts. ”
Hm, don’t know about that. I believe that Jesus also recognized that a wronged spouse shouldn’t be penalized for their spouses’s actions, and thus granted divorce and marriage. I don’t think it was solely about hardness of hearts (except the hardness of the adulterer’s heart). I don’t think God would punish an innocent spouse for their spouse’s actions.
Good night again. Good talk.
I see your point, relationships that follow God’s plan for the family have greater potential for harming others because when a marriage breaks up it effects not just the husband and the wife but also their children.
Let’s look at a scenario. A heterosexual couple made up of a husband who is marrying for the first time and a wife whose first husband divorced her because she got pregnant and refused to have an abortion. This is her second marriage and they raise children together and live faithfully to one another. Would you condemn this relationship as being the equivalent of a homosexual one?
“A heterosexual couple made up of a husband who is marrying for the first time and a wife whose first husband divorced her because she got pregnant and refused to have an abortion. This is her second marriage and they raise children together and live faithfully to one another. Would you condemn this relationship as being the equivalent of a homosexual one? ”
Well, first off I didn’t say that heterosexual sins were “worse” than homosexual sins. I said the damage could possibly be worse because it involves innocent parties (kids). In that scenario the damage would not be worse. It’s still illegitimate though. It might seem unfair, but I think plenty of things are unfair, it still doesn’t mean that we’re allowed to do them or they aren’t sins. I think it’s unfair that God gave me such a bad childhood as a punishment or test or whatever it was, but that was what he decided to do. I don’t think it’s fair he gave people same sex attractions and then condemned homosexual relationships, but that’s what he did. And for whatever reason he decided that infidelity was the only legitimate reason for remarriage.
In that case I definitely think the woman should get a civil divorce, because I think God views civil divorce differently. But it’s true that in God’s eyes she is still married to the husband and thus can’t get remarried, her second marriage is adultery. I don’t see any other way to see it based on the Bible.
Read Mathew 19:6. Can you see how your marriage to your wife would not qualify as part of “what God has joined together” because you did not even believe in God or ask God to be a part of your union?
Also, according to 1Cor 7:12-15″12To the restI say (not the Lord): if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she is willing to go on living with him, he should not divorce her; 13and if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to go on living with her, she should not divorce her husband. 14For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy. 15If the unbeliever separates, however, let him separate. The brother or sister is not bound in such cases; God has called you to peace.”
So according to those scriptures the woman in the example I gave may able to Biblically re-marry after all.
Truthseeker, I thought we were talking about Christians. In your example I assumed we were speaking about Christians all around. Christians should never separate except in cases of infidelity. If in your example her first husband was not a Christian, yes I can see where the second marriage might be considered legitimate. I would have to do more research on the matter though.
The verse Matthew 19:6 says “So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
Why do you think that only means marriages that have two Christians involved. We can see from the Corinthians verses that even marriages involving a non-believer, God considers that marriage important for various reasons. Not as important as a sacramental marriage between Christians, of course, but he doesn’t take it lightly. I don’t think I can say for certain that my marriage was something that God did not put together. My wife was a Christian at least, so he was involved in our marriage to an extent.
I will have to do more research. But it is crystal clear that Christians may not remarry if their Christian marriage breaks up except for infidelity. That part at least is not debatable.
I am glad you are understanding some of the reasons other than adultery that a Christian can Biblically still remarry. Even if both people were baptized Christians in my prior example; how is it possible for the husband to be a believer and threaten to divorce her unless she had an abortion?
“how is it possible for the husband to be a believer and threaten to divorce her unless she had an abortion? “
Because believers are still sinners and still do things wrong all the time? Don’t you ever have problems with lust, greed, coveting, jealousy, etc? Christians still sin.
Sure, believers can sin. But you cannot take anyone seriously who calls themselves a follower of Christ if they threaten to divorce their wife unless she agrees to kill her own children. I mean would anybody seriously believe that person?
Well I didn’t say he was a GOOD Christian lol. He’d certainly be committing a very grave sin. But if they both married as true believers I still think the no remarriage applies. People fall out the faith all the time, doesn’t mean they didn’t believe at one point.
I’d say it is possible if not likely he would call himself a non-believer and when a non-believer separates then scripture tells us to let them separate and she would no longer be bound to him. So remarriage would be possible.
Where does the Bible day that a marriage put together by God becomes NOT put together by God if one member of the couple stops believing?
But anyone you’re talking about a rare situation. Most Chrisian couples divorce for the same reason non-Christians do: disagreements on money, on raising children, or sexual incompatibility. I’m sure you wouldn’t argue that they are able to legitimately remarry for those reasons.
Not as rare a situation as you might think where the couple doesn’t join together in making their vows to God and to one another. Even when the ceremony is held in a church I think many couples see the vows as being to one another and not to God.
And that my friend is a big part of why the divorce rate is so high among Christians.
I don’t really agree, most Christian couples seem to involve God in their relationships a lot from what I’ve seen. They pray together and see their marriage as an extension of God’s love on earth. Even my ex, who isn’t the world’s greatest or most loving and faithful Christian, considered the marriage vows of her side at least to be vows to God as well as vows to me. She didn’t keep them very well, but that doesn’t mean she didn’t make them. I think you’re passing the buck on Christians here, am I misunderstanding you here? Or do you think the churches have failed in not emphasizing the vowing to God and inviting him into your marriage part?
Because Christians are gravely fearful of breaking vows to God. But not so much fearful of breaking vows to another person.
It is not so much that the church doesn’t teach the couple to bring God into their marriage; it is just that many Christians are not devoted to practicing what is taught. They could sit through the catechism as a part of the requirements to get married in the church but never really put it into practice.
Yes truth but Christians are human and fallible, and Christians are no different from other people in that regard. Christians commit all kinds of sins. And sometimes Christians go through periods where they have very little faith or no faith at all, it happens to a lot of people. Even Mother Theresa spoke of her struggles with doubt and faith.
This has always annoyed me, and honestly the mindset kept me from church for a long time. People would talk about how Christians would never do this, never think this, never commit this sin (this is common with how a lot of Christians speak about homosexuality, for example). So, I figured I had no chance to be a Christian, that I was just somehow intrinsically worse of a person. And because I struggled with these things and I couldn’t be perfect and not have this issue or that issue, that I had no chance. That God didn’t love me like he did other people and I wasn’t a child of God like all these “perfect” Christians. I mean, I still struggle with thinking like this and I’m not entirely sure what I believe, but I don’t think this way of thinking is right. Christians sin like everyone else, and it’s not right to pretend that Christians would never commit any particular sin. Christians are people like everyone else, and sometimes make mistakes. Not better or worse than others, just forgiven.
“many Christians are not devoted to practicing what is taught.”
Well I do agree with that and it’s not specific to divorce. A lot of people pick and choose what sins are “not a big deal” or okay, while harshly condemning others. It’s an amazing coincidence that the sins that are “not a big deal” and the ones that the particular Christian wants to commit his or herself!
But yeah, I think that’s why it’s so easy for many Christians to be harsh on LGBT people and forgive other sins I think are just as bad. It’s easy to forgive a sin like heterosexual premarital sex, because we’ve all been there (except for exclusively homosexual people), we’ve all struggled with lusting after someone who we aren’t married to, of the opposite gender. It’s easy for people to understand how a mistake could be made. But with homosexuality, most of you aren’t attracted to the same gender and see our orientation as disgusting, so it’s difficult for you to understand the struggle or how tempting it is, and it’s easier to harshly condemn. It’s human enough to forgive our own sins and judge others for theirs more harshly.
I never said Christians are perfect. You seem to have trouble grasping that Christians would fear breaking a vow to God any more than they fear breaking a vow to another person. Is that what you are saying or am I misunderstanding you?
Where did I say that a Christian would not fear breaking a vow to God? I am sure Christians do, but it doesn’t stop them from sinning sometimes, because they are humans. Humans sin, it’s part of our condition. A man might really want to honor his marriage vows and his promise to God, but that secretary is just so attractive so he justifies it and makes excuses for himself and commits the sin and destroys his marriage. It doesn’t mean he didn’t make the vow to God, it means he broke it because he’s a fallible human and committed a grave error.
Many Christians just abstain from making vows to God at all because they fear the damnation they would bring upon themselves by breaking vows made to God.
I really don’t think that secretary would be appealing to a Christian who feared eternal fire. Lets see…secretary here…eternal fire there….it’s pretty much a no- brainer. The reason many fall to sin is cause the Devil keeps the Christian from thinking in terms of breaking vows to God and eternity in Gehanna. But when a Christian is able to think in those terms then Fear of the Lord is one of the greatest gifts of the Holy Spirit and can be a shield against sin.
I don’t think that’s correct at all. When I was a teenager and a child, I 100% fully believed in God. And I wasn’t taught about the loving God that you all believe in, my God didn’t love me. My God wanted to punish me for anything I ever did wrong, even being sexually abused or otherwise abused by my parents. The cult I was raised in was very big on the eternal hellfire and damnation. They believed that there were some people so bad that not even God wanted to save them, and they painted God out to be this cruel tyrant who was just looking for ways to punish humans because we were so sinful.
Aaaandddd guess what? I still committed plenty of sins! I was completely convinced hell existed, and I knew I was committing sins that would send me there, but I still messed up and committed sins because I’m a human, and I’m a particularly unhappy human at that, so I did sinful things to try to make myself feel better. I’m much more sinful than any of you guys who regularly comment here. I did drugs and drank all the time, stole and sold drugs to support my drug habit, slept with literally countless amount of people of both genders, all kindsa stuff. All the while knowing that I would be condemned to eternal torture for my actions. I was tortured and regretful about it even while I was doing these things, begged forgiveness from God every time I did such things, but I still would screw up, my addictions and unhappiness would always get the best of me and I would sin again.
The threat of hell isn’t going to keep people from sinning. That’s why God is such a forgiving God, he knows the human condition is sinful and that’s why he’s got such mercy and grace for us. Isn’t that correct?
” But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath, but let your “Yes” mean “Yes” and your “No” mean “No,” that you may not incur condemnation.” James 5:12
truthseeker, I’m not saying that breaking a vow to God isn’t a grave sin, or that Christians don’t really fear and regret breaking vows to God. What I’m saying is that it’s the truth that even after vowing to God, some people still sin and break those vows, or lose their faith and break their vows, and things like that. It’s true. It’s not admirable, but it’s true.
Deluded One, I believe that it was the Holy Spirit inside of you that made you understand those things were wrong at all, even though you couldn’t stop them. It seems you have been able to overcome some of those trials and persevered. You may even have been proven by the tribulation and now you have overcome these things. All I can say is that asking God for help and mercy is fine and a good thing; but I would not recommend you vow to God that you will never do these things again unless you are certain; let your Yes mean Yes and your No mean No and avoid any judgement from making vows to God. Of course God is all loving and forgiving but he is not to be mocked and vows to God should be taken as gravely serious.
truth I never have vowed something to God that I feared I would break. The only thing I’ve ever truly vowed to God (not as a child, as a child I vowed him things like I wouldn’t “let” my father abuse me, which I don’t think God holds me responsible for breaking, I don’t think?) was that I will never hurt my kids and I’ll do everything that I can to protect them and keep them safe. That’s the only thing I’ve ever vowed to God as an adult.
And I don’t think Christians vow to God thinking they will break them. But the fact remains that people are fallible humans, if we never broke our vows or committed sins we wouldn’t need Jesus. I don’t think anyone who ever broke a vow to God intended to when they made it, but I know people have. But luckily enough salvation doesn’t depend on us being “good”. Not to say that you should TRY to mess up, that’s the sin of presumption, but I know that God forgives. Otherwise I’d never have a chance, because I’ve never been “good”.
May God’s will be done.