Christian rock band raises money to promote abortion
A controversy began brewing in the pro-life world last week after Bryan Kemper revealed the Christian metalcore band Texas in July is currently participating in a 30-city fundraising tour in part to raise money for Sex, Etc., a website that promotes abortion, homosexuality, and premarital sex, while opposing pregnancy care centers.
The Take Action Tour 2011 of which TIJ is a part advertises that “[t]en percent of the cost of each ticket sold is donated to Sex, Etc. and Sub City 501c3 non-profits,” so there is no doubt TIJ is complicit.
Just a couple examples of Sex, Etc.’s propagandist bent, lifted from its site and via Andy Moore’s detailed post about the TIJ controversy….
and…
Andy has more examples as well info on the many links between Sex, Etc.’s staff and Planned Parenthood.
The controversy comes into play because TIJ now denies it is culpable for any wrong-doing:
Many people seem to be confused on where we stand on certain issues and we just want to apologize for this confusion and clear some things up directly. Texas in July in no way favors abortion and are at a loss for words for those saying hurtful and untrue things about our band’s beliefs and motives. We feel that this is the right place for us to be right now. This is, and has always been, about the music. We are excited to be sharing our music with an entirely new audience and will continue to let our music speak for itself.
This is the position pro-life leader Erik Whittington of Rock for Life is taking:
Similar to the Christian action of being a light in the darkness, pro-life bands who we support are encouraged to be a light in the darkness.
Texas in July is a pro-life band. They oppose abortion. As a result, they are most likely the only pro-life voice that will be heard on the Take Action tour. So, why are pro-lifers aggressively going after TIJ?
Erik also believes TIJ should honor its contract lest it “soil their reputation as a band.”
Erik also thinks Sex, Etc. is actually going to lose – not make – money from the tour. First, this isn’t germane to the point of the conversation. Second, Take Action brags it has raised “more than two million dollars for charity” in its 10 years of existence. It makes no sense that a charitable beneficiary would lose money. Plus consider all the free promotion and elevated credibility Sex, Etc. is getting at each of the 30 tour stops. I’d love to see its website stats since the tour launched April 22.
I count Erik is a great pro-life friend but think he and others who take TIJ’s position on this are wrong. No matter what TIJ band members personally believe, their financial support of an organization that promotes anti-Christian human sexuality and baby killing says it all.
Yes, legalists accused Jesus of hanging out with drunks, but they never accused Him of buying an alcoholic a drink.
Jesus also hung out with women of poor repute. But he did not tell the woman at the well – who was shacking up with a guy after having been married to 5 others – the location of the nearest abortion clinic if she had an oopsie, how to do it with a woman [warning: graphic] in case she decided men weren’t working out for her, or where to get free condoms.
According to Wikipedia, TIJ’s members are very young, ranging in age from 18-21. I expect they got bad advice from band promoters on this one, and they also didn’t do their homework. Either that, or they’re slipping away from their Christian foundation. I note a word missing from Wiki’s updated entry on the band. Click to enlarge…
There are plausible explanations for this, such as that some Christian musicians remove the label if trying to go mainstream. I’m just wondering which culture is affecting which culture here.
One other thing, Sex, Etc. lies about when human life begins…
Whether or not TIJ calls itself pro-life, the hard truth is it is helping send countless babies to their deaths.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Ugh! This makes me FUME! I just got into it with several “pro-life” Christians on facebook over one supposed “pro-life” Christian’s support of SGK despite knowing that they give money to PP. She stressed she is NOT supporting abortion, she is pro-life she just wants to help SGK with all the good they do.
This is almost the same thing. You CAN’T support those who support abortion and immorality and proclaim your innocence of those things. And “its all about the music”. Gimme a break! It should be about whats RIGHT. period. No matter what. Even if the music has to suffer. Music is not more important than the lives of babies and souls of women.
Erik is totally wrong on this one.
I blogged about this too:
According to Texas in July, one can “in no way favor abortion” yet participate in a tour where 10% of the ticket proceeds go to an organization that blatantly favors abortion. As long as it’s, you know, “about the music” and not about selling your integrity to the highest bidder.
Jill, I totally agree with you. You have probably heard Catholics talk about the moral distinction between “remote” and “proximate” cooperation in evil. Remote (distant) cooperation can be permissible if the Christian does not share any evil intentions with whatever the remote evil action is, and there is no reasonable way to avoid this distant cooperation. Remote cooperation does not directly promote or share in anything that is necessary for the evil to take place. In other words, removing the participation would not have a noticeable impact either way on the situation of the evil. This is not a thorough treatment of this subject; just a few points within a much bigger subject. There are other important considerations in addition to these.
Proximate (near) cooperation in evil is a form of participation in evil that involves the person/group in a significant (other than inconsequential) way in the evil being done. In the case of proximate cooperation, it does not matter whether or not the persons involved share in the intention of the evil action (as is apparently not the case here according to TIJ), it is still wrong.
The fact that 10% of the ticket sales (which must include some people purchasing tickets specifically because of TIJ’s presence in the show) will go directly to an organization that expressly promotes evil makes the band’s participation wrong no matter what their personal views and intentions. The money going toward Sex, etc. because of them does not care one whit what their personal intentions are. This is irrelevant. Also, there is the additional issue of the fact that their mere presence in this tour sends an unavoidable message that they support Sex, Etc (regardless of what the band members personally believe) and what this organization stands for. This is scandalous, and adds to the immorality of their participation.
This is a sad example of not following Jesus’ admonition to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves (Mt 10:16). We Christians can’t close our eyes to things and proclaim our purity and innocence. We’ve got to know what we are getting ourselves into.
Something good in Texas:
http://www.realcatholictv.com/daily/vort.php
This band will make much more of a pro-life statement if they pull out of this tour and state very clearly and publicly the reasons for doing so. If they don’t, they have succumbed to the lure of the promotion. They will not influence anyone for the good on this tour, but will lose their own principles in the process.
/shrug
What does one expect, it’s not like “Bible only Christianity” has any definite authority about these things. It’s any man for himself for any interpretation you want. Am I right, Rev. Matthew Westfox?
I would be interested to know, how, exactly, are they providing a pro-life voice on this tour? What are they doing to make explicitly clear that abortion is a horrible thing? Erik says they will be a pro-life voice. How? What is the nature of their pro-life witness?
And, given the nature of Sex, Etc., I would be very surprised if there were not free condoms made available to attendees at some booth or other at the concerts. Does Texas In July support the direct encouragement of sex outside of marriage?
With all due respect, Katharine, twisting Scripture is not a tenet of Protestantism.
I don’t know if I would go that far, Katharine. While I am Catholic and do indeed believe that sola scriptura is flawed, I think it is an unfair caricaturization to say that anything and everything goes just because someone holds that the bible is the final and highest authority. It is very clearly a twisting of scripture, regardless of who has the “final say.” God love you.
It is very wrongheaded, the apparent position of Erik, that since the band is going ahead and doing this Christians should go ahead and support them because the band has good intentions and besides, they may do some good.
It is frustrating to see more experienced Christian adults so often being completely flaccid and inert when young Christians do something clearly ill-advised, immoral, or stupid. We are not being charitable to blithely accept whatever bad idea some group of young Christians comes up with simply because their heart is (supposedly) in the right place. Nonsense. There is a time and a place for more experienced Christians to inform young Christians when they are doing something immoral and/or stupid. How are they going to mature and grow in wisdom if they are not challenged over a bad decision that has serious moral consequences?
I cannot tell you how utterly disappointed I was when I saw Whittington’s approval/defense of TIJ’s decision to play this concert. I think this disappointed me more than TIJ’s actions (or their subsequent justification of said actions). There is no justification for endorsing this website, no matter how tacitly it is done.
Katharine,
With all due respect, not all Protestants believe this! As Bobby Bambino pointed out, this is a very clear twisting of Scripture that I am sure most Christians would disagree with.
Just as there are some who claim to be Catholics (Nancy Pelosi, etc.), there are some who claim to be Protestants but who, in reality, do not actually live out the beliefs that are found in the Bible (or the Church, as the case may be).
“preventing the ‘fertilized’ egg from attaching to the uterus, thus preventing pregnancy.” Huh? News flash. Pregnancy test comes back positive and pregnancy begins when egg is fertilized NOT at implantation. Flat out lies while claiming to be giving accurate information. They should pull out of the tour and write a song about it.
Katharine, don’t even go there. This is what you get when you are not being led by the Holy Spirit but by your own perversions.And to clarify I don’t mean you, literally, you, but you as in general. And ya know, I studied history. There were popes like that too!
@Kel, 10:52 AM: Thank you. Seconding.
As to TiJ, this drama has been going down on Facebook with some rather frustrating results. A lot of people have been trying to make very convoluted and largely nonsensical arguments about why it’s okay for a Christian band to support a pro-abortion group ranging from “abortion is not destructive” (someone said that one directly to me) to “religion is all interpretation anyway” (no, it isn’t, don’t make me reach through the screen and slap you silly) to “you people are all religious” (well, yes, so is the band we’re talking about which is why this page was made in the first place and what exactly was your point again?). Christians should not support groups that support abortion. Consumers should not support vendors that do stuff they don’t like. But given the amount of resistance and confusion (feigned or genuine, I can’t tell) these propositions are getting on Facebook, you’d think Mr. Kemper was asking third graders to do rocket science or something.
(I’m annoyed over this. Can you tell? ;) )
It’s called “selling out”.
jcd,
I so dig Michael Voris. His network is definitely rocking the boat!
I didn’t realize how massive that PP facility was.
Katharine has a valid point. When there’s no central authority, then there’s no one who can definitively say, “This interpretation is correct” or “this interpretation is incorrect” since everyone (presumably) claims to be influenced by the Holy Spirit when reading/interpreting Scripture. How do you know who is and who isn’t? You can make educated guesses but there’s no way to know for sure. That’s why there are so many divisions within Protestantism — if someone doesn’t like a particular interpretation offered by their denomination, they just start a new church so they can do their own thing.
Anyway, Sydney, I’d love to know which pope taught error — that is to say, held an erroneous teaching as binding on all Catholic faithful — in the realm of faith and morals. I too have studied history, as both a Protestant and a Catholic, and I’ve found no such instance.
Joanna, so not going there with you. If you are being led by the Holy Spirit you know when others are not. Very simple.
Doctrine is laid out in the Bible. There were popes in history who fornicated, murdered, scrabbled for power and wealth… I’m sorry I can’t remember off the top of my head what their names were. I’m sure I could find out but you could just as easily. And you probably know who since you studied it so much. So these fleshly popes were “infallible” huh?
Sorry, I follow Christ and HIS TEACHINGS not tradition set up by sinful men. You do what you like. We’ll see who is right in the end, won’t we?
It seems to me that Texas in July joined this tour because of the tour itself, and whatever other bands are playing, not to raise money for this organization. Either that or TIJ is supportive of things like birth control but not abortion. From these excerpts, the organization in question seems rather aggressive- looking to pick a fight. Of course, I would have to see more, but I should hope that they are not so spiteful overall.
I’m still confused as to what is happening, but I would think that if pro-choice people and pro-life people came together over something unifying like music, then it can lead to great good. It can also lead to an awful lot of fights. But what would actually be best is if a pro-life/pro-choice tour resulted in actual dialogue.
The likelihood is that they won’t talk about or debate abortion. I would imagine that the topics of conversation will revolve around whatever city that they are in, sets, dinner, et cetera. Though, like I said, an ideal world would result in real progress: a mutual understanding and a plan to work toward justice for women and children.
Just a quick word here, Sydney: infallibility makes no claim about behavior or personal morality. As laid out in Vatican I, 1870, it only claims that a Pope cannot err when speaking definitively as Pope in a matter of faith or morals that is intended as teaching for all the faithful to hold. So by definition, the sinful popes like Alexander VI, Honorius the whatever, etc do not contradict infallibility by their bad behavior. A pope could teach something infallibly but be a very sinful and slugish man.
Well Bobby, you as a Catholic would know more about that than I do. I would have a big issue following the word of someone clearly not controlled by the Holy Spirit. I couldn’t/wouldn’t do it. You all think its foolish to follow the Scriptures solely and I think its foolish not to. We’re not gonna see eye to eye on it, unfortunately.
Pet peeve – there is no such thing as a “fertilized egg”. Any use of the term is flat-out wrong when it comes to conception. Once a cortical reaction is triggered, you no longer have an oocyte. In other words it stopped being an egg, the moment the sperm cell gained entry.
That’s the moment when pregnancy begins – everything after that point is an on-growing process.
carder,
once the egg is fertilized it becomes a zygote.
sorry, that should have been directed at chris not carder
Without getting into the sola scriptura battle I can say that I do not think this bands reasons for going astray in this instance had ANYTHING to do with it. If it did then I might join the fray here, but it didn’t. It probably had more to do with the fact that their lead guitarist and eldest band member left the group to go back to college last August rather than tour. And at the same time the band became contracted under new agents.
Scott J,
“We are not being charitable to blithely accept whatever bad idea some group of young Christians comes up with simply because their heart is (supposedly) in the right place. Nonsense. There is a time and a place for more experienced Christians to inform young Christians when they are doing something immoral and/or stupid. How are they going to mature and grow in wisdom if they are not challenged over a bad decision that has serious moral consequences?”
That is perfect. I could not agree more. Thank you for succinctly hitting the nail right on the head.
Katherine,
I too am Catholic and agree that sola scriptura is problematic. However, I will again say that your insistence on criticizing those who believe that way is not helpful. Do I believe that we should ignore the issue? No. Do I believe throwing that issue in peoples’ faces in an online comment section every time will help them? No. Please remember that we are all in this fight for life together. And if we want to change the hearts of others, we need to do so with kindness, love and compassion. And your regular bashing of sola scriptura is not helpful. Speaking one-on-one with those you directly encounter, and doing so in a compassionate manner, is much more likely to help. Even if you wish to do it here, please try to be kind. I know many many good Christians who happen to be Protestant. And I am embarrassed as a Catholic when you make inflammatory comments about their faith.
And finally, to those who want to knock the Catholics,
I am a convert and spent most of my life as a Protestant. For what it is worth, I believe I have indeed found the Church that was founded by Christ. But I also understand that (as the Catholic Church teaches) you do not have to be Catholic to receive God’s grace and forgiveness. What I wish is that you would treat the Catholics with the same kindness and compassion that I urge Katherine to exercise. My Church (the Roman Catholic Church), or more broadly, our church (all of us Christians here on earth), are both made up of sinners. None of us are free from sin. Remember Jesus’s comment about “he who is without sin?” That includes all the Protestants, Catholics, pastors, ministers, priests, bishops, and even the Pope. And the Catholic Church teaches exactly that. As Catholics, we do not believe that the Pope or any of us are free from sin. Infallibility as it relates to the Pope, means that when the Pope (or the Magisterium) exercises his (or its) teaching authority, guided by the Holy Spirit, he (they) are infallible in their authority regarding the faith. If you have a hard time accepting that, fine. I did too at first. Now I do not. But at least respect my faith as I respect yours and urge others to do.
Once again, we are in this together. Let’s worry about our real enemy, Satan. We have plenty to overcome without throwing stones at each other.
God bless,
Bryan
That’s interesting, Sydney. How can you know, infallibly, who is and who isn’t being led by the Holy Spirit?
ANY Christian should KNOW that Metal music is the Devil’s Music.
No Surprise.
Not true, Alyssa. There are several Christian metal bands — Reliant K, for example. I don’t like metalcore myself, but I’m glad there are (authentically!) Christian metal bands out there for those who do.
Katharine – please forgive me for spelling your name incorrectly. I just caught it.
”And I am embarrassed as a Catholic when you make inflammatory comments about their faith.”
And I am embarassed by all the different factions that claim to be THE faith. There is one moniker that really gets under my skin, “Religion of Pieces” but it’s true unfortunately.
No wonder Christ prayed for unity of the Body, Christianity seems like a joke when its followers don’t agree on what the truth is.
Catholics like Pelosi can claim their version of catholycism all they want, that doesn’t change clear Church teaching that is there for anyone who wants to know it, and has always been the same no matter how corrupt the Pope (thank God).
Christian bands who sell out for money because there’s no solid authoritative direction in their religion bring shame to the whole of Christianity. I made my original comment because I think it’s a bit ridiculous to hold the band up to a certain standard when there’s no solid authority to enforce it. I mean no offense to protestants personally.
Sydney, does your idea above mean that you think to be lead by the Holy Spirit means that a person is thereby without sin? Are you lead by the Holy Spirit? Are you without sin? Is your church’s minister lead by the Holy Spirit-do you follow his/her teaching in your life? If you do, does that mean you have personally verified that this minister has no serious sin in his/her life??? Really? How do you know?
It is very possible that a person who is regarded to be good actually is involved in serious sin in their private life in a way that is not known to others. A supposedly celibate Pope fathering a child is an obvious and public sin. But how many Christian leaders (whether Catholic or not) commit grave sins that are not known because they are less obvious to the public?
Being guided by the Holy Spirit so as to be able to maintain the teaching of the truth to believers is not the same sort of protective presence of the Spirit as making an individual sinless in his own personal life. Confusing these two things leads to an impossible situation–requiring that every Christian believer today figure out if their own ministers are sinless before they take them seriously as teachers of the faith. It even requires (to be consistent) that every believer not accept even their own personal sense of what is true about Jesus and the Christian faith unless he first determines with certainty that he himself is sinless–for only then could he trust that the Holy Spirit is with him. This is an endless circle impossible to get out of.
Except, this is all contrary to Scripture (you know, that part about all are under sin; see Rom 3:9.23).
As Jesus prayed His high priestly prayer before His passion, He prayed on behalf of His apostles, that “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth.” (Jn 16:13) He did not pray that the Spirit make them sinless men. He prayed that they be guided to the truth. There is a big difference. Sinlessness (i.e. impeccability) has never been seen as a requirement for an authentic Christian teaching/preaching ministry (of course, the less sin the better–see the lives of the Saints–but not a necessity). Infallibility (being protected from error in official teaching about faith and morals) has long been seen by Catholics as exactly what Jesus prayed for here in John 16. The apostles (the hierarchical leadership of the Church, acting together as a unified teaching body) were given protection from error in their public universal teaching. They were not given protection from sin.
Did Peter sin in denying Christ three times? Yet, not long after this, Jesus tells Peter, “feed my sheep”! (Jn 21:17)
In 1 Tim 1:15, the great Paul himself says he is the foremost of sinners. Does that mean that we can’t trust anything he wrote?
King David was a pretty serious sinner. Should we exclude anything in the Old Testament that comes from King David? Were any Popes murderers and adulterers both? Should we therefore discard any teaching the comes from David? Moses killed a man. Yet God chose Him to lead His people out of slavery and through Him gave a great deal of religious teaching to the Israelites. There are more Biblical examples of gravely sinful men still being used, chosen, by God, to teach His people about the true faith.
Joanna… yeah, not going there. I’m not interested in debating that. I’m just not. Same with you Bryan. Same with you Katharine. Peace.
Sydney,
I am not asking for debate. I am just asking that we treat each other with respect and stay focused on the real enemy. I was asking people to lay off knocking sola scriptura. I was also asking people to lay off knocking the Pope. If I sounded like I was trying to debate, I apologize.
Peace be with you also, Sydney.
If you change your mind, Sydney, you can reach me via my blog. I’m really interested in your method for determining, infallibly, who is and who is not guided by the Holy Spirit, because I know several Christians who are all good people, who all claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit, but who hold opposite viewpoints on key matters of faith.
And Scott johnson, obviously all human beings have sin. There is a difference between a person who repents and turns from sin (King David… hello! the Psalms are full of his sorrow over his sin) and those who have no repentance and keep pursuing sin. I didn’t really read any further in your post. I have no desire to debate you on this. I know what the Bible says. I have a personal relationship with my Lord Jesus Christ. My faith is not based on vain traditions of men but on the inspired Word of God. He who adds to the book or takes away from the book is cursed, remember! You choose to add things (church canon, traditions whatever) then do it. Believe what you will. I believe all God wanted me to know is in His Word. And I don’t apologize for it nor am I shamed.
I was raised Baptist and joined the Catholic church for 3 years. I left the Baptist church because our pastor stole money and divided the church. It was awful. I lost my faith because I was following MEN and not Christ! I was looking at people and not God’s Word. I joined the Catholic church because my husband is Catholic and being heavily involved in the pro-life movement I met a lot of great Catholics who were nothing but kind and charitable to me. So no disrespect meant here (though I am sure it will raise hackles in some) but although I threw myself into “being Catholic” and did everything I was taught I felt spiritually unfed. The mass was/is reverential and beautiful but it was like a lovely cake… totally unfulfilling. I wanted the meat of God’s Word and that was never provided. I eventually stopped going to mass after 3 years and then slowly found myself back in a Fundamentalist Baptist church. And I felt fed again. I started having my devotions with God again. My prayer life exploded. And I must constantly remind myself not to base my faith on people but God. People fail. They always will. Its not about which religion is right… for me it isn’t at least. Its about my personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
I have a fever. Caught it from my child! So I am going to bed. Have a good night everyone!
Sydney,
You admonish Katharine for criticizing Protestantism, but then you throw out this?
My faith is not based on vain traditions of men but on the inspired Word of God.
Catholicism is not based on vain traditions of men, either, but on the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave us a Church and NOT a Bible prior to His ascension.
Please remove that plank in your eye before going after the speck in someone else’s.
I’m sorry you weren’t “fed” at your Catholic Church, but not all parishes are created equal in terms of activities and etc. I’m more interested in following the Truth, regardless of its packaging, and I am more “fed” as a Catholic than I ever was as a Protestant.
Joanna, who said I was referring to CATHOLICS when I said that (vain traditions of men). I was actually referring to RELIGIONS in general but if that hits close too home for you… so be it. I’ll just raise an eyebrow then.
Maybe when I am not burning up with a fever I will pick up this discussion with you.
I apologize for the misunderstanding, Sydney, but it sure seemed as if you were talking of Catholicism given the context of your post.
Katharine,
Thanks for your latest comments. I understand your point much better. I agree that Christian bands that sell out bring shame to Christianity. And I now see what you mean about the lack of authoritative teaching. If the members of that “Christian” band were members of Westfox’s church, they would probably be seen as model Christians.
The division in the Body of Christ bothers me tremendously as it does you. And I see the Pro-Life community as a place that is building bridges between Protestants and Catholics as we work together against a common enemy. So I am pretty sensitive to comments that work against unity among us. I am glad that I better understand what you were trying to say now. And I am specifically glad to hear you say “I mean no offense to protestants personally.”
Thanks
Sydney, I will pray you recover quickly! I mentioned the above because you had said, “I would have a big issue following the word of someone clearly not controlled by the Holy Spirit. I couldn’t/wouldn’t do it.” Does this include yourself?
Even if you claim not to follow the teaching or guidance of any Christian minister/leader but only follow the Bible, this presumes that you accept your own personal judgment of what to believe about the Christian faith based on your own personal reading of Scripture. To be consistent, this must mean that you believe that you personally are “controlled by the Holy Spirit.” (Otherwise you could not accept your own understanding of Scripture) How do you know with certainty that you are “controlled” by the Holy Spirit? Essentially, what this position does is it makes the individual believer equivalent to the pope but as a private believer for his/her own private faith.
Not trying to be argumentative. Just exploring what seem to be the consequences of your own statements. God bless you!
Sorry Joanna. I should have clarified that. I didn’t mean Catholics in particular. Look, I’m being drawn in! ha ha. I want to talk about this with you I just don’t have the mental acuity to do it tonight. I feel like someone stuffed dirty socks into my skull and lit them on fire!
Just some thoughts that came to mind I’ll leave you with and you can answer me and hopefully by tomorrow I will be a normal body temp and normal cranial pressure.
I know the Catholic church teaches ONE thing on any given subject. So you would say you are a unified church. However, there are many Catholics that have splintered off from the teaching of the Catholic church. They believe differently although their opinions are not “official” positions of the Catholic church. (I know many in my husband’s family who can’t even agree on the most basic doctrines of salvation etc…) You would say they are not Catholics then. Tell that to them! They think they are!
So I think Protestants are like that. (Although I hate that term, I am not “protesting” anything but i’ll call us that for sake of this discussion) Most protestants have basic agreement on important doctrines like salvation though we may not agree on other doctrines. I think salvation is the key doctrine. Because we don’t have one spokesperson to speak for us as a whole or one head of “our” church (even though we are NOT one church)… Where am I going with this thought? I just had it in my head and poof! Its gone. Stupid fever.
let me flesh it out for you tomorrow Joanna. Good night everybody!
“I feel like someone stuffed dirty socks into my skull and lit them on fire!”
Eww!
Scott Johnston, it may not make sense to you but I am controlled by the Holy Spirit. When I was 6 I realized I was a sinner. I realized my sins separated me from a HOLY God. I realized I deserved hell. “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” the Bible says. So I did. I called to Jesus to save me from my sins. And He did. The Bible says once a person is in Christ he is a new creature. The Bible says the Holy Spirit indwells His followers. So thats how I know I am controlled by the Holy Spirit. I still have a fleshly nature. I still sin. But when I do the Holy Spirit convicts me right away.
Salvation is not found in a church, Scott. Salvation is not inherited and not a group effort. Salvation is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
My pastor points out that bank tellers never receive training in counterfeit money. They handle the real stuff so much that they can spot a fake miles away. When immersed in the Scripture you can spot fake doctrine because you are so familiar with true doctrine from God’s Word. (This is not a dig on Catholics). But when my Catholic sister-in-law starts spouting nonsense about Buddhism and reincarnation… I know what the Bible says and I know what she is saying is false doctrine. She is one of those who calls herself “Catholic” yet doesn’t believe half of the doctrines of the Catholic church! I say the same about those who call themselves “christian” yet their church is in direct opposition to God’s Word. Just because they say they are doesn’t make it so.
Do some protestants get it wrong? yes. I don’t know their hearts. I don’t know if they even have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ! I know some Christians can still be led by the flesh and not listen to the Holy Spirit. So I can’t tell if so and so is being led by the Holy Spirit except that what they are saying does not match up with God’s Word.
I measure everything in the light of God’s Word. What is my ultimate truth? For Catholics it might be the Pope or your church’s catechism and maybe yes, God’s Word. For me the only truth is found in God’s Word and God’s Word says that.
Sydney,
You cannot go wrong following the Word of God. Any Church teaching that does not agree with scripture would be false teaching.
I fail to see any relevance to this band and sola scripture being the cause of their choice to do this latest tour. You people are really reaching here. Katharine was itching for a fight or it really never would have come up. This could just as easily happen to Catholic youth regardless of any authoritative teaching they get. But for the grace of God any person can lose their way.
“Remove from me the way of falsehood,
and favor me with your law.
The way of truth I have chosen;
I have set your ordinances before me.”
Psalm 119: 29-30
Sydney, I really recommend reading Mark Shea’s “By What Authority” for a more thorough discussion on this issue, but in brief:
A good analogy is the Supreme Court. As Americans, we are not free to interpret the constitution as we see fit. We must follow already established laws and rulings. We can dissent, debate, discuss all we want, but at the end of the day the Supreme Court has the final say, and we can only hope for another Supreme Court to overturn that ruling some day if we want it changed. (Here the analogy breaks down, as no Pope has ever or will ever ‘overrule’ previous binding Magesterial teaching in the realm of faith and morals).
For a deeper (and better!) explanation of the above, visit Jennifer Fulweiler’s post Why I’m Catholic.
OH! I so got sucked in! Truthseeker, you are right its has nothing to do with it but its an interesting discussion nonetheless. My husband knows them (they are from our neck of PA). They have no fan base to speak of and just started touring. They are kids itching for fame and money. The game plan for a lot of bands is to break into the “Christian market” and then when they get big switch over to the secular market. (Katy Perry ring a bell anyone?) sad, isn’t it? Their “Christian” and “pro-life” convictions were probably never personally held convictions to begin with. Its just the badge they wear at the moment to get more fans and record deals.
Also, Sydney, I absolutely agree with you that salvation is through Jesus Christ. That is Catholic teaching as well. However, Jesus Christ gave us the Church and the Sacraments, and they are the BEST way (albeit not the ONLY way) to give us the graces we need to “work toward our salvation with fear and trembling.”
Interesting analogy as the Supreme court is not Constitutional to begin with! And I would say the Pope and Tradition is not Scriptural (I know that verse about Peter being the rock… but that in no way set him up as a Pope though I know Catholics believe and teach that)
Salvation is by faith NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast! (Ephesians 2:8) Grace is the unmerited favor of God. It is a gift we receive not that we deserve or work towards! Thats the fundamental difference between Catholic and Protestant doctrine!
Thank you, Sydney, for being clear about your belief that you are controlled by the Holy Spirit. This shows you are consistent in this.
Forgive me, but what if another sincere Christian who is a sinner (as are we all) but quickly repents of his sin and is just as convinced of being personally controlled/lead by the Holy Spirit as you are about how to understand the teaching of Sacred Scripture, comes to a conclusion about the Christian faith on something very essential (pertaining to salvation)–but this conclusion contradicts your conclusion on the same issue? This happens often. How do you know your view is correct and not the other person’s, if they too claim to repent of sin and to be Holy Spirit guided? Why is your interpretation of Scripture to be given preference over someone else making the same claims as you but coming to different conclusions about the faith?
For example, baptism. Some Christians claim it is necessary for being a member of the Body of Christ–i.e., for salvation (to be able to be in heaven with God). Others claim it is not. This is not a side issue. It pertains to salvation. Putting aside Catholicism for a second, just among individual Protestants, There are Christians who claim contrary things about baptism, who are sincere, and who repent of sin and say they are guided by the Holy Spirit. How do you know who is correct (in other words, how do you know your view on this particular issue is correct over others who hold a contrary understanding)? Their understanding of baptism is based on their reading of Sacred Scripture. Yet, they come to contradictory views. I don’t know your view on this issue, but for sure, there are other sincere Christians who would say your view is wrong–based only on Scripture. How do you know you are always right and those who reach conclusions different from yours–based “only” on Scripture–are always wrong? This is essentially what you are saying.
In effect–and I’m not trying to be provocative, just following out your thoughts to their logical conclusions–you seem to believe that you are your own personal pope. You seem to be in practice claiming to have personal infallibility (because you are controlled by the Spirit) about how to understand the Bible in matters that are essential, that pertain to salvation. But there are other Christian people who truly believe, who pray, who repent of sin, who read the Bible often and love the Word of God, who do not agree with you about what the Bible teaches on at least some very essential things that have to do with salvation. You seem to have decided that when this is the case, you simply have decided to always choose your personal understanding over that of others–as though you were infallible.
It is not so simple a matter of just reading the Bible a lot and being prayerful and open to the Spirit, and to be humble and repentant of sin. All these things are good and do indeed help a lot to further unity among believers. But the evidence of history makes it very obvious that this is not enough to provide unity on those very important things that directly relate to salvation.
Does saving faith necessarily include the fruit of works of charity toward others inspired by faith and accomplished with the help of grace? Or is no charity toward our neighbor needed (though recommended) as an essential part of living out a faith that saves? This pertains to salvation. And there are different views on this among Protestants. Quite a few issues like this exist that are all related to salvation, and about which sincere Christians disagree. Is everyone right, even though they contradict each other? This all pertains to reading and applying the teaching of the Bible on those matters which the Bible seems to teach are essential for salvation. Is everyone their own private pope?
Don’t feel you have to respond. God bless your recovery! That’s a very tangible image you gave there about burning dirty socks! Hopefully their fires will cleanse away all nastiness and restore healthful balance.
My position is one of not joining or advocating the boycott. The choice the band made was wrong to be on this tour and I trust it was based off of misinformation. My position is not an endorsement of the tour. If my position is read in its entirety you will see obviously I am against SexEtc. I believe sending the full pro-life fury on young Christian pro-life men is misguided. It should be aimed at the main purpetrators, SEXETC & Take Action Tour who decided to make them the main benefactor.
I understand most of you are pro-life activists and are most likely boycotting everything and everyone on the Life Decisions International Planned Parenthood Boycott list. I am sorry that a group of 5 young Christian Pro-Life men made a wrong choice again probably ill informed or made it without understanding. So let’s pray for them!
Scott,
Any and all truths in the Catechism draw their truth based upon the strength of their scriptural origins.
“Do not put your trust in mortal men, in whom there is no help.”—Psalm 146:3
As a Catholic I have not found error in the Churches teachings but I also look to a greater power than the Church to affirm those teachings.
Truthseeker, you’re mistaken on the science–I thought it was a typo the first time I saw you say this.
A pregnancy test can’t detect anything until after implantation. Before implantation the hormones (like hcg) that the embryo is producing don’t enter the mother’s bloodstream and aren’t metabolized in the urine. No blood or urine hcg test will detect the presence of an embryo until implantation. I think there are some sort of chemical messages being sent, but at present we don’t have tests to detect those.
“[Grace] is a gift we receive not that we deserve or work towards! Thats the fundamental difference between Catholic and Protestant doctrine!”
Sydney, I’m sorry, but if you believe this is what the Catholic Church teaches you are mistaken. The Catholic Church does not, and never has, taught this. To hold this as true is to believe a caricature of Catholicism (often spread by people who have an ax to grind against the Catholic Church–not implying you here) rather than to deal with the real thing.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, “Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nautre and of eternal life.” (no. 1996, emphasis original) The definition of grace in the glossary at the back of the Catholic Catechism begins with, “The free and undeserved gift that God gives us to respond to our vocation to become his adopted children.”
Erik, I don’t know anything about this band apart from the discussion here. But, note what Bryan Kemper reported (see http://tinyurl.com/3ejzk3d) about their ignoring his attempts to contact them directly, and now deleting comments from their Facebook page. Are these the actions one would expect to see from individuals who are truly convicted personally about the dignity of unborn life and of God’s plan for human sexuality? Wouldn’t they reach out in some way, engage somebody in a discussion, if this truly concerned them? Indeed, prayer is called for. But it doesn’t look good.
Do they have a history, however short, of actions that would demonstrate they are serious about their pro-life stance? Or is there only statements to go by without action to support it?
I don’t assume they are supportive of the SexEtc worldview. But, neither do I assume they reject it, without something more than silence and unresponsiveness on their part.
I’ve noticed a lot of the Catholics here seem to have the idea that “Sola Scriptura” is some kind of license to read the Bible any which way you want. Which is…wrong.
It’s more the opposite. By saying this, you are acknowledging that God’s word is holy and you are not. Scripture is the only rule of faith and practice, but you must believe, teach, preach, and live what Scripture actually says, not what you wish it said. The analogy of the Supreme Court was a really good one, because here we all are on a website that says the Supreme Court got the Roe decision wrong. That the Constitution says something that they have interpreted incorrectly. The Constitution is still the supreme law of the land, and that’s never changed. But because somebody got it into their head to start making the Constitution say what they wanted it to say, rather than ruling on what it actually said, we have the unjust ruling that has claimed so many lives…among other problems. So while God’s Word is the final authority, you have to recognize that you can make mistakes reading it and come to disputes with humility and a mind willing to be influenced by the Holy Spirit’s guidance.
And, just as an aside, most churches who run around trying to bend the Bible to suit their whims wouldn’t say they adhere to the Five Solas, anyway.
ycw,
I am sorry to hear that because it means fewer ways for mothers to easily gather information about the point of conception but it is good to know. I guess hospitals need to find a new “pregnancy” test. It kinda makes sense now that you say it though. I wonder if the zygote releases something that could be detected? Thanks for finding that out and for letting me know.
Also ycw, Are you sure it is the embryo that releases the HCG? It would make more sense to me that it is the mother who releases the HCG and that it is why it is not released until the embryo implants into the mother’s uterus.
The Christian metalcore band Texas in July……. LOLOLOL OMG…. LOLOL
Christians cannot play hardcore metal. Hardcore metal is a rebuke of Christian beliefs and rules. That’s why there are all the skulls, 666, demons, and devil hand signs. The whole idea of throat vocals is about screaming at the top of your lungs because you feel oppressed by our Christian overlords in Washington DC. It about screaming out the rage you have no power to change. Stick to your softcore B.S. like Stryper and Creed.
Texas in July…. What does that mean?…. Dry and boring? No trees or mountains but plenty of brush fires?
Oh yea and sex education should not be taught to children… They should figure it out on their own and then go to hell for it…. That should learn ‘em…..
What you give money to, you are endorsing, plain and simple. And yes, Jesus was accused of hanging out with drunks, but to say He didn’t buy them a drink is just silly. He did better than that, He turned water into wine for them to drink.
Erik,
If the TIJ guys weren’t your personal friends, would you feel the same way?
If the Sexetc site included a statement attacking Rock For Life, telling teens that you’re anti-woman liars and manipulators, and that they should avoid you and go straight to the abortion provider, would you feel the same way?
So sad.
belladonna, what can you tell me about the drunks at Wedding Feast in Cana? What were there names? Where and when were they drunk? Oh yea, you trolls can never really answer questions or support your assertions.
“Oh yea and sex education should not be taught to children”
Biggz,
Not when your idea of sex-education is to promote promiscuity and ingenstion of high dose hormones. How about instead of teaching kids sex we teach them how the human body works and the gestational cycle of the human species so that they understand the basic things about their bodies/biorythm. It would be a lot more useful than how to use a condom and maximize pleasure by trying different poasitions etc. Just the fact that you call it ‘sex’ eductaion tells me that kids don’t need what you are pushing.
I would ask TIJ if they would be part of a concert tour that raised money for organizations that promoted rape or slavery… neither of which is as fatal as abortion. I take the Rock for Life (Erik’s) comments as evidence that listening to Rock music, Christian or otherwise, does brain damage.
ts, I’m pretty sure the embryo and/or the placenta produce the hcg.
I’ve read somewhere that the zygote starts sending chemical messages soon after conception, but I’m not sure what or how or how they could be detected.
If they come up with a more sensitive test, I’d love it, but right now the best we have is a blood hcg test, which can detect a healthy pregnancy within days (at most) of implantation. Generally under 5 is negative, over is positive; most women have around 2 or 3 even when not pregnant, and a woman in or near menopause could have as high as nine. The best urine tests you can buy detect a concentration of 10 (my wonderful husband bought me some) but hcg is metabolized differently in urine, so I’m not sure when the earliest it could detect was; also different women and embryos metabolize hcg differently, and grow at different rates. I haven’t had any luck with the sensitive strips yet; with the more standard ones I still never detected before 2 weeks after conception. I know my level with my son when it was first taken was 15 at 11 days after conception, for the blood test.
Sorry if that’s tmi.
So, so sad. Giving 10% of proceeds to this organization IS supporting abortion, whether this band realizes it or not.
My guess would be that if this band is truly Christian and pro-life and that is apparent in their show, they will be dropped from the tour after the first or second appearance.
Truthseeker – You could teach an 18yo how a 747 mechanically and electronically works but that would not teach them how to fly a 747 let alone land it safely. Sex education starts with anatomy and later gets to the “how to fly” part. All education is good no matter what the subject. You can go to college and learn about how and why serial killers commit the crimes they do and those students make smart decisions not to murder people. You need accurate information to make good decisions. The Christian line of acting like an ostrich when it comes to talking to kids about sex outside of an anatomy book simply does not work.
In case it’s helpful, I’ve outlined four things I think both sides would be wise to keep in mind on this issue: http://prolifepodcast.net/2011/05/josh-brahm-statement-on-the-texas-in-july-debate/
The Christian line of acting like an ostrich when it comes to talking to kids about sex outside of an anatomy book simply does not work.
Hey Biggz,
I had a Catholic education (K-8) which included sex education. I was taught specifically, in no uncertain terms, what activity leads to a child being made (and this was way back in the 70s!).
Because this Christian school did such a good job teaching me about sex, I didn’t choose to kill any of my children. After all, I couldn’t really feign surprise when the exact behavior that my teachers said would cause babies actually CAUSED BABIES.
The public schools really should start paying attention to what the Christian schools are teaching in sex ed. The concepts Christians teach in sex ed are so much simpler for youngsters to understand than Algebra.
Well Praxedes if you think that sex is for the sole purpose of procreation and should not be used for anything else then you would be correct. However, that is NOT how MOST of the rest of the world view’s sex. I personally believe sex is necessary for good personal health, good relationship health, and good mental health. Heck, you guys are still trying to tell people that masturbation is evil…
Heck, you guys are still trying to tell people that masturbation is evil…
More disordered, addictive and immature really than evil. I personally feel your time would be better used feeding the hungry and giving to the poor but I’ve found arguing with the compulsive can become, well, obsessive.
The band clearly removed their Christian label!
I personally have never even heard of them, and I’m sure that they will fizzle into nothing within a few years.
Rather then focusing on their endorsement to this cause, we should be angered that it even exists. We need to stand against the sin, not the sinner!
and JoAnna… Relient K is NOT a metal Christian band.
They are punk/alternative rock.
An example of a metal band (Like the one mentioned in this article) Would be Demon Hunter.
Texas in July drummer was on Jay Leno last night. They stink!