Stanek weekend Q: Appropriate or not to equate Ferguson/NYC deaths with abortion?
Rock singer Ted Nugent took heat for wondering why those outraged about the grand jury’s decision in Ferguson, Missouri, not to indict a white policeman for killing a black “thug” aren’t equally outraged over black genocide via abortion:
And dont claim that “black lives matter” when you ignore the millions you abort & slaughter each & every day by other blacks. Those of us with a soul do indeed believe black lives matter, as all lives matter. So quit killin each other you f*ckin idiots.
Billboard’s Joe Lynch wrote in response:
Ooof. Hard to say what abortion has to do with any of this, but apparently Nugent is convinced it’s hypocritical to protest gunning down an unarmed teen and be pro-choice. Some might say there’s a significant amount of grey area with regard to the life of an 18-day-old fetus and an 18-year-old man, but not to Professor Nuge.
Do you agree there’s “significant grey area” about killing a very young preborn baby versus killing a teen? Do you think it’s appropriate to remind the black community of its self-annihilation via abortion in relation to other black killings?
Here’s a similar example, comparing the death of Eric Garner after being arrested in NYC, and referring to his last words….
Similarly, there are complaints when pro-lifers compare the Jewish Holocaust to abortion, or slavery.
Thoughts? Also take the poll….
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
First off, to call Ted Nugent an idiot makes me feel bad for anybody else in the world ever called an idiot. He really has a special place carved out in the intellectually challenged hall-of-fame.
So to take this question seriously, I must block Ted Nugent completely from the picture – as he simply makes anybody else dumber if he’s in the room, on the tv, or in the conversation.
With that all being said – it’s a weak comparison. I think we need to get over this whole feeling that nobody can be outraged over something unless they are equally outraged over something else. The only real tie-in I see is sanctity of life – but I have found massively few individuals that don’t quickly work themselves out of full-time consistency in that area – exceptions and loop-holes start popping up pretty quickly…
Well, the teen had the choice not to knock over a convenience store and try to grab an officer’s gun. The unborn has no choice.
To those that believe all human lives matter and any unjust killing is a tragedy, these comparisons are appropriate. Those that believe some human lives have more value than others will of course argue that their valuation is right and to equate all human lives as equal is wrong. As someone that strives to consistently value all human life, I find the comparisons appropriate.
Good Comparison Those who value a unarmed man who acted stupid, over an innocent defenseless baby in the womb need to take a serious look at their reasoning.
I have serious issues with the use of the stranglehold, which I understand violates NYPD protocol. Eric Garner was a huge man and it would not take much to obstruct his breathing. Also, I think EMS’s handling of his situation was very questionable.
Eric Garner had the choice not to resist arrest, but that does not justify what happened.
I no more support his death than I do that of an unborn child.
As for Brown, when you attack an armed person, especially a policeman, you either have a deathwish or you’re freaking stupid. We all have a right to defend ourselves.
For your consideration: http://joshbrahm.com/4-reasons-pro-lifers-need-to-stop-doing-this/
Jonathan –
Wish I could like your last post 100 times.
Mary, you nailed it.
If Black lives TRULY mattered, we would see ministers in the pulpit telling their congregations the truth about abortion, the fact that their symbol-prez LOVES abortion, and how if we really value human life we see abortion and police brutality at different points of the same spectrum that is touted as Civil Rights.
Ex, it would scare me a million times silly if you volunteered to advocate for my life. You don’t have a clue WHAT you stand for, just a bunch of fuzzy, warm pat on the back platitudes.
Funny take Courtnay – I typically get accused of being too strong in my thoughts and feelings.
Look – I just think it’s a weird intellectual link people make – that you can’t seem to be enraged or called to action about one thing without an equal amount of rage or call to action about something else.
And let’s take the flip side – if somebody is saying that if you care about life, and then protest these deaths – you must be equally or more incensed about abortion – then let’s flip it. How many people have been out marching based on these deaths at the hands of police? Or do people just care about unborn babies?
People are called to different issues. Again – read the link Jonathan posted – good read.
Thanks, Exgop. Josh Brahm seems to have an uncanny ability to do that. You and I are on opposite sides of quite a few issues. Yet Josh just has this ability to help people find common ground. I encourage you to read other articles on his site. I think you might enjoy them as well. I believe Josh is eventually going to become one of the prominent voices in the pro-life movement.
I believe Josh is eventually going to become one of the prominent voices in the pro-life movement.
Thank heavens.
Jon –
Started reading a few articles – will have to read more. Initial thought is I like him. I mean, he doesn’t seem to believe that those who disagree are complete idiots.
For my part, I believe that it is always appropriate to remind people of the ongoing mass murder and injustice of abortion. We have this opportunity whenever the public conversation looks at any other instance of mass murder and injustice.
Yes… We must be tasteful about it. We must not appear to be trivializing the tragedies of Ferguson or Newtown or 9/11 or the Nazi Holocaust, just because the tragedy of abortion dwarfs those awful events by sheer numbers.
On the other hand, we could do without the knee-jerk reflex of those who shout “STOOPID” every time they hear mention of FOX News, or Ted Nugent, or Republicans, or Republican voters…. If they would listen to Americans instead of trying to tell us what to think, liberals would not be in the jam they currently find themselves.
For all of her power and influence in Washington, I have yet to hear Nancy Pelosi say anything as persuasively intelligent as these comments from Ted Nugent.
On 9-11-01, I was on my way to Mass and then to an abortmill to stand peacefully and prayerfully in witness to the lives being lost that day. The thought that I had upon learning of the attacks on America was that Muslims were behind it, and that they attack America as “The Great Satan” because we are spreading contraception and abortion around the world, which Muslims abhor. America is spreading contraception and abortion around the world, and this is used as propaganda against America by our enemies.
One might say my “Fetus Tunnel Vision” gave me the thoughts I had upon learning about the 9-11-01 events. Or one might say that this impression I had related to the Big Picture. If America wasn’t exporting contraception and abortion, I believe Muslims wouldn’t have attacked America. I believed then, and I believe today, that God will use Muslims to end abortion in America.
Am I worried about how people will perceive my impressions concerning the Big Picture on 9-11-01? Not in the least. I won’t be judged by how many people agreed with me or how many facebook friends I had or how many people think I have “Fetus Tunnel Vision” by standing in peaceful, prayerful witness to the slaughter of the innocents.
God’s plans never change, they never collapse, and with God, all things are possible. God can take evil and use it for His good.
Like someone who doesn’t call those he disagrees with idiots? Read the first comment then behold the irony.
I think Nugent makes an excellent point. In NYC 60% of black children are aborted while alive in their mothers wombs. They are dead now, and their mothers don’t sell t-shirts to celebrate their names.
Del, it’s not the point about whether the comparisons are appropriate. The question that needs asked is, “What am I trying to accomplish?” This article is a prime example. Just look at the comments here along with the comments on Jill’s Facebook page linking to this article. Those already convinced that abortion kills a human being and should be ilegal may agree with the comparison. Meanwhile, those who aren’t already pro-life (and even some who are) are turned off by the comparison. I’ve never seen a non pro life person become pro life by comparison abortion to a current event. Never. Have you? Ray Comfort’s 180 is the only slight exception and the holocaust is not a current event. So is our goal to preach to the choir or go actually change minds? Depending on your goal, that would help determine whether as should make the comparisons.
We are not concerned much with the ardent pro-aborts.
We want to raise awareness among the vast majority of Americans who have not given much thought to abortion. This is what we are trying to accomplish.
For all of those Americans who are noticing the racial tension for perhaps the first time, we direct their attention to the targeted genocide perpetrated by the abortion industry and their supporters.
To persons on the Right and the Left who insist that women need abortion because of financial distress — this effectively means “killing Black children to reduce poverty.”
Black Lives Matter. Each and every one is valuable to us all.
It’s not only appropriate to draw parallels from similar heinous acts of evil and injustice but it is a vital tool to try and bring moral clarity to a world languishing in dark deception.
Those who are pro abortion or in a state of confusion on the fence will undoubtedly take offense to the comparisons.
Hard truths like “most people are going to hell” and “abortion is genocide” are not easily received. But us humans are a flaky bunch and our hearts are plagued with lust and deceit.
We found fault with and executed the only Perfect Man who ever lived.
I absolutely believe that every opportunity we have to discuss human injustices, we need to and comparisons are appropriate. I refuse to become politically correct in this area and enter into sanitizing abortion.
We must remind ourselves of human injustices in the past; and abortion is todays major human injustice with innocent human beings lives snuffed out of existence–to not make a comparison to the injustices of slavery and the holocaust would be wrong.
As far as black lives matter….if one is going to say that,then it is somewhat hypocritical to live out the millions of black babies that have been brutally murdered through abortion.
X-GOP–I get what you’re saying and how you feel. It is like the pro-aborts who tell me “If you’re pro-life then you should be standing outside the slaughter mills where hamburger comes from and protesting what they do to animals!!” Even though I don’t see anything wrong with meat. And I don’t think animals are worth the same as humans. But to the pro-aborts they see a correlation and view me as a hypocrite.
While I can look at the irony of folks screaming about black folks getting killed while millions of black babies perish during abortions they don’t see it. To them a born black person is worth more than a black embryo or fetus. I say “embryo or fetus” not to dehumanize the preborn but to draw attention to how those folks feel. They really think it is “just” an embryo or a fetus. They don’t see the preborn as living human beings.
however, I still use the comparisons sometimes because I have seen them work. I have seen the lightbulb go on in brains as they begin to see that abortion is our modern day genocide. But like graphic pictures–it is not an approach to be used all the time.
Just my 2 cents.
Del,you avoided my question. I don’t care whether we are talking about an ardent abortion supporter or a nominal one. Have you EVER had either one change their minds due to a comparison of a current event to abortion? I have NEVER seen it happen. Furthermore, I have seen plenty turned off by it so that it shuts down communication. Is your goal to change people’s views or do you have a different goal?
“I’ve never seen a non pro life person become pro life by comparison abortion to a current event. Never.”
Just because no one called you up and told you that things “clicked” for them after they heard a comparison being made, doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened – many times.
Although he doesn’t directly talk about abortion, this man knows that Black Lives Do Matter:
Youtube: Johnathan Gentry on change in the black community.
“Just because no one called you up and told you that things “clicked” for them after they heard a comparison being made, doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened – many times.”
True enough, Praxedes. And just because no one said that watching “Barney the dinosaur” convinced them that man and dinosaurs lived together, doesn’t mean that didn’t happen many times. It sounds like you view that as solid evidence that they have?
You are offering zero proof of comparisons to current events ever changing even a single person’s mind and then wanting me to believe it changed many minds. Meanwhile we have solid proof of many people who are not pro-life being completely turned off by the comparisons and zero proof of a single person changing their mind because of them, what does that mean? (Apparently the exact opposite of what the evidence shows?)
(Oh, and if Jonathan Gentry never mentioned abortion, he hardly relates to the discussion regarding what does or does not change someone’s mind regarding abortion.)
Do you think it’s appropriate to remind the black community of its self-annihilation via abortion in relation to other black killings?
If you all are sincere in your conviction that black people just don’t understand what is good for them, then of course you should keep saying it. So few people are willing to express that belief openly in the twenty-first century.
This doctor makes a pretty compelling argument LisaC:
http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/in-the-line-of-fire/46366-who-is-killing-off-all-the-black-americans
Telling black girls they need access to killing their unborn children is ALSO telling them you know better what they need. Except now you literally whitewash over Margaret Sanger’s deadly racist project that is still destroying children of all colors today.
Hitler admired your heroine’s racism. Epic fail, abortion fan(s).
How nice the ladies of the Ku Klux Klan could take a day off from burning crosses and terrorizing black citizens to attend a lecture by Margaret Sanger, who went through a lot of trouble to talk to them. I’m a little hard pressed to believe Maggie had no idea who the Klan was or what they stood for. Didn’t she have any standards or scruples?
Del –
Your statement was directed at me- so let me clarify.
Fox News should be kept in perspective, just like MSNBC. Both are political entertainment – both, in my opinion, slight everything to an audience and as a commercial enterprise, while that’s acceptable – I simply don’t view their ‘news’ as something to trust on its own.
I think my statements on Nugent were too light. Del – he doesn’t belong in the same sentence as those other entities. He’s a racist – he’s an evil person – he’s everything wrong with the political component of America. If he says something with even a remote shed of truth, I’d find somebody who says something similar and post their thoughts. It isn’t that I disagree with Nugent – he’s simply such a horrible person that I, as everyone should – simply reject anything he says immediately based on who he is.
I think I caused future confusion when I only called him an idiot earlier, and then the approach Josh Brahm takes. If my perceived double-standard isn’t cleared up, I’ll further give my thoughts on Nugent and the difference.
“You are offering zero proof of comparisons to current events ever changing even a single person’s mind and then wanting me to believe it changed many minds.”
You are offering zero proof that comparisons to current events have NOT ever changed even a single person’s mind. Where did I say I wanted you to believe anything? From your link, it is pretty clear that you already know the correct way to go about it all so why argue with others who disagree? Just go about with your business.
I have watched the numbers of followers on Jill’s site increase. I hear people talk about abortion that have never talked about it in the past. My husband and I are talking with teens about the subject. Women are opening up about their stories of being pushed to abort. I see the ultrasound photos that proud parents display. We are electing more prolife politicians so, imho, we just need to keep on keeping on. You do it your way, and other prolifers will do it their way.
Let the Spirit guide you.
Helloooooo!!! Jonathan…I just said in the comment above yours that I have SEEN the comparisons sway minds. I’ve seen it. Does that count? Good grief man.
Again, it depends on your audience. I have never seen it sway a hardened pro-abort. But someone who admits that unborn are human but thinks it is the “lesser of two evils” type thing for the baby to be aborted rather than the woman kill herself or the baby grow up “unwanted”…I have seen pointing out the similarities to the Jewish holocaust has made light bulbs go off in some heads. They begin to see their apathy is part of the problem. Their willingness to let children die in order to “solve society’s problems” doesn’t end well historically.
LisaC, you forgot to talk about the Virginia statutory rape story being wrong and that Jill should be ashamed for taking her donors’ money. And that her website sucks and is terrible. You’re slipping!
Except now you literally whitewash over Margaret Sanger’s deadly racist project that is still destroying children of all colors today. Hitler admired your heroine’s racism.
Since you’re a student of history, 9ek, you’ll have no trouble identifying the authors of the following quotations, right? (Hint: one of them is Hitler).
In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.
But since I learned that these miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them.
There is a striking kinship between our movement and Margaret Sanger’s early efforts.
The Negro race has reached a place in its history when every possible effort should be made to have every Negro child count as a valuable contribution to the future of America.
deflect away, more than half of all black children conceived in NYC are murdered through abortion.
It’s intellectually consistent and perfectly appropriate to draw parallels like this to reinforce the humanity of the unborn.
However, I agree w/ Ex-GOP that people don’t have to take on every issue. There is an issue of how police interact with the black community that is separate from the issue of black women aborting at such high rates. Being wrong on one doesn’t mean you can’t speak on the other or that the other is not important.
I forgot to mention earlier that I believe Nugent’s choice of violent language is inappropriate and immature. At his age, he should be able to make an intelligent point without resorting to name calling.
deflect away, more than half of all black children conceived in NYC are murdered through abortion.
Oh, come on–surely you know Hitler when you see him? Hint 2: One of the individuals quoted was deeply admired by Hitler. Modern-day admirers of that individual usually deny sharing that particular belief, although it’s pretty obvious that many of them actually do.
ninek, that sounds unbelieveable. How can the DOJ stand by and let that kind of profiling occur? They should have quotas and enforce an equal number of white babies get murdered too.
So here’s where I think the pro-life crowd looks stupid while making comparisons like this. The general perception is that most pro-lifers really don’t give a rat’s a** about any other issues within the black community other than dropping by, giving a judgmental verdict on abortion stats, and getting out of town as quickly as possible.
When I’ve tried to have actual conversations with actual people on this site about race relations – it is quite obvious that nobody really cares about issues of profiling, the war on the drugs and what it has done to inner cities, minimum mandatory sentencing issues, lack of jobs in the cities, lack of education spending.
In fact, it seems like people bend over backwards to ignore these issues, and then post cute little borderline racist cartoons every week.
But sure, pro-lifers are “here to help” the black community when it comes to ‘their issues”.
It’s really pathetic quite frankly.
So making comparisons to these other issues falls flat because most pro-lifers seem to have blinders on to any other issue out there.
Ex-GOP,
Now you’re the one insisting people need to take on all topics. It’s the same as people saying that people can’t protest any loss of black life unless they also protest abortion. What abortion supporters are saying is hey, there’s a huge loss of black life that’s being ignored. The reason it’s important to make the comparison to abortion when there is loss of life is because some people don’t even acknowledge that there IS loss of life. If the humanity of the unborn wasn’t denied, these comparisons would be less important.
The rest (regarding people’s care for or lack of care for the black community) is your opinion. There is no agreement even within the black community let alone in the broader population of 1. what the issues of the black community are or 2. the best way to address them.
CT –
Certainly not saying to take on all topics – but to blindly come in with the “we’re here to help” attitude with a blind eye and condemnation towards other issues – that’s a problem.
It almost becomes like a “quit whining and look at this issue” because we know what’s best for you.
If you want to influence others to do the right thing, you have to do the right thing yourself. How other people respond to you is out of your hands, pretty much, anyway.
If you’re waiting for someone to come along and do the right thing, you’re missing your calling. You never know when you’re making a good impression on someone who needs to see one.
People who say it’s wrong wrong to demonstrate the right thing may be lacking in self confidence for some reason. My father used to tell me, “Son, the world isn’t a popularity contest.” He never told me what the world WAS, but what it wasn’t. I found out that the world is a saint-making machine. Saints aren’t always very popular.
What’s true isn’t always popular, and what’s popular isn’t always true.
Off topic- I had a pro holier ask me if we (conservatives) don’t think that banning guns will stop gun violence why do we think that banning abortions will stop abortions. Help!!
Karen
Do laws against rape and murder stop either of these crimes?
Obviously not. So why do we have these laws?
Banning guns won’t stop violence, but it will stop the defenseless from being attacked in many, many cases. Banning abortion won’t stop abortions, but it will stop the defenseless from being aborted in many, many cases.
DocKimble is correct Karen – if you bad guns and ban abortion, you’ll have a big decrease in homicides and abortion – though neither will completely go away.
(let me have a do-over on that)
Banning guns won’t stop violence, it will only make the weak defenseless. Banning abortions won’t stop abortions, it but it will stop the defenseless from being attacked in many, many cases.
Karen,
Banning guns won’t stop violence because the majority of gun violence is perpetrated by people who are not complying with gun laws as it is. Banning guns would ONLY serve to punish those who do comply with the law. Banning abortion would not stop all abortions either, but it will reduce it significantly because there are a lot of people who seek abortions because it is legal who would not break the law to seek abortions. Pro-choicers like to pretend that every abortion sought legally would be sought in the “back alley” as well, but that’s not the case.
That’s a direct answer to the question without getting into the fact that the two actions (owning a gun/committing an abortion) are not morally equivalent actions. One can be done in a perfectly moral way while the other is wrong always and everywhere and in all circumstances.
Ha…in that case, DocKimble is wrong.
There is no reason to think Americans are uniquely more evil than citizens of the rest of the Industrialized world. They generally have stricter gun laws, and thus see less violence. Elementary.
CT –
But then you’re making a weird assumption – it’s like you are saying that gun laws would exist, yet manufacturers would continue to make guns that are banned. It’s like assuming abortion is banned, but all abortionists still have clinics.
If you get rid of the supply, then the demand side can’t get what they want.
“If you get rid of the supply, then the demand side can’t get what they want.”
You’re joking right. If abortion is illegal the reduction won’t come from the supply side. The reduction will come in the demand side (not b/c women don’t want them but because the lack of ease and legality will deter the people who seek them). Legality is already no impediment to the perpetrators of gun violence. You’re never going to get rid of the supply of illegal guns because gun manufacturers will still be making these guns for law enforcement, military etc. People will traffic in weapons, to say nothing of the enormous supply of weapons already in existence. The only people who won’t be able to get guns are the people who wouldn’t have used them for illegal violence in the first place. The criminals will have the guns they need. Again, this is without even getting into the fact that we are not dealing with morally equivalent actions.
Owning guns is not an immoral thing to do. Guns can SAVE lives. My friend had a guy kick in her back door. Fortunately she was armed. She held him at gunpoint till cops arrived. She and her family were not murdered and the bad guy was not killed either. In the end all lived because there was a gun in the hands of the good guy (girl).
There is no such thing as an abortion in the hands of a good guy (girl). Abortion always kills an innocent person. Guns do not always kill innocent people. Sometimes they prevent innocent people from being killed.
You’re comparing apples to chocolate tasty cakes. There is nothing to compare!
EGV,
“If you get rid of the supply then the demand side can’t get what they want”.
LOLLLLLLLLL. Please EGV, my sides are hurting. Do you think criminals use their own legally registered guns to commit crimes? I bet you think they would never steal a car for use in a crime either.
CT –
Legality of it on the supply side? What sort of punishments are you thinking? How do you think that’s going to play while trying to pass laws?
Mary/Sydney/CT
I simply reject the notion that you three are saying – that Americans are more evil, more dangerous, more immoral and violent than any other country like ours.
Other countries have tighter laws, and have much lower gun homicide rates.
You all are more than implying that no laws can curtail our thirst for blood – guess it’s time to give up the pro-life fight as well – I guess the evil is just in our blood, right?
Come on folks – look outside our borders – there’s more than just America on this planet.
EGV,
I said no such thing and I don’t see where CT or Sydney did either.
You and I have had this discussion before and I have pointed out that cultural factors, as in Switzerland, also play a role.
The others can speak for themselves but we have gun laws, just as we have traffic laws. Accidents and deaths still occur. Criminals still get their hands on illegal guns, and steal cars.
BTW, since your beloved Obama is turning more criminal illegal aliens loose in this country, you might be more concerned with their access to guns, which I’m sure will not be by legal means.
http://4thst8.wordpress.com/2014/05/15/obama-administration-turns-loose-thousands-of-criminal-aliens/
Mary –
You’ve tried to make points before – you haven’t established facts on the differences.
I’m dismayed by all of your defeatists attitudes. Of course we could make better gun laws and it would impact rates. We already have lots of regulations that help. Common sense regulations/bans of certain weapons could be done while still allowing guns to exist – and we’d all be better off for it.
Thank you EGV,
We can all sleep better tonite knowing those lowlifes your hero is turning loose in this country can be kept in check with better gun laws.
Ex GOP: First off, to call Ted Nugent an idiot makes me feel bad for anybody else in the world ever called an idiot. He really has a special place carved out in the intellectually challenged hall-of-fame.
Ha! Ex-GOP, I knew somebody was going to say something like that. :P
Dude knows how to rock, though. :)
LisaC, is knowing who said which quote a way to lower the number of children murdered via abortion? I think not.
http://liveactionnews.org/78-of-abortions-in-new-york-city-were-black-and-hispanic-babies/
Now, you can deflect all day long, but you still support abortion on demand, for any reason, and it’s pretty hypocritical to wring your hands about a few tragic events concerning adult black men, while ignoring the thousands of living children whose lives are snuffed out before they even get a chance to take their first breath.
Now, another deflection enjoyed by yourself and exG is that we don’t really care about abortion or children or people or race, that we have some other ulterior motive for opposing abortion. Now surely you can’t expect us to be conducting a vast internet conspiracy where all of the pro-life websites and people are under a seal of secrecy not to reveal that in reality we all hate human beings and just want to end abortion cuz, well, just cuz. Enjoy your tinfoil hats if that’s your fashion statement, but don’t blame us because you fail see the humanity in the tiny, vulnerable children ripped apart by people bigger than themselves.
Mary –
You call them lowlifes. I call them people.