Catholic “holy war” erupts over abortion in healthcare
UPDATE, 3/19, 8:27a: The USCCB issued this statement yesterday:
A recent letter from Network, a social justice lobby of sisters, grossly overstated whom they represent in a letter to Congress that was also released to media.
Network’s letter, about health care reform, was signed by a few dozen people, and despite what Network said, they do not come anywhere near representing 59,000 American sisters.
The letter had 55 signatories, some individuals, some groups of 3 to 5 persons. One endorser signed twice….
There are 793 religious communities in the United States.
The math is clear. Network is far off the mark.
Sister Mary Ann Walsh
Director of Media Relations
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
[HT: Kathy O.]
UPDATE, 3/18, 9:52p: Just read that the National Catholic Reporter came out today in favor of the Senate healthcare bill. What a mess.
3/18, 9:18p: When Catholics United supported pro-abort John Kerry for president in 2004, and was joined by Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good to promote Barack Obama in 2008, I was aggravated but not surprised. Heretics organized these groups specifically to promote a liberal political agenda.
But now something more is going on, like an open rebellion. It’s almost as if the Catholic leadership in America has lost control. From the Christian Science Monitor, today:
A widening split among opponents of abortion could help pave the way to passage for President Obama’s healthcare reform legislation….
Increasingly, abortion foes – including high-profile Catholic organizations and members of Congress – are saying that while the language aimed at preventing use of federal funds for abortion is not perfect, the bill is still worth passing as a first step.
The Catholic Health Association, which represents more than 600 Catholic hospitals in the US, came out earlier this week in favor of the president’s plan, arguing that comprehensive reform is a “moral imperative.” On Wednesday, 60 Catholic nuns representing most of the nation’s 59k nuns sent a letter to Congress, also urging passage of the bill.
The one-two punch represents an extraordinary display of dissent against the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, the official leadership of the US church, which favors universal healthcare but opposes the president’s plan over the abortion issue.
CHA’s support of Obamacare seems crazy to me. Not only should Catholic hospitals oppose public funded abortion, they should worry about being forced to commit public funded abortions.
More from Fox News today, despite the seriousness of the topic, a couple of laugh lines…
The abortion language in President Obama’s health care reform bill has ignited something of a holy war among Catholics, who are sharply divided on whether the legislation would allow the government to subsidize the termination of pregnancies.
While groups representing Catholic hospitals and liberal nuns have come out in support of the bill in recent days, other groups representing Catholic bishops and other nuns have denounced it, saying the bill contains restrictions on abortion funding that don’t go far enough….
Rep. Bart Stupak, D-MI, who has led the charge to include in the final bill the tougher anti-abortion language passed last November by the House, derided the White House for touting the nuns’ support.
“When I’m drafting right-to-life language, I don’t call up nuns,” he said. Instead, he said he confers with other groups, including “leading bishops, Focus on the Family, and The National Right to Life Committee.”…
But on Monday, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops took issue with the hospital association’s belief that defects to the bill will be fixed after passage….
[A]nother group, the National Council of Major Superior of Women Religious, which represents 129 orders and nearly 10k nuns, say the bishops’ position is “authentic” and expressed outrage that the liberal social justice advocacy group Network is attempting to speak on behalf of the Catholic nuns….
The Rev. Frank Pavone, national director for Priests for Life, blasted the liberal nuns, saying their statement in support of the bill “does not represent 59,000 nuns; it represents approximately 59 nuns who signed it.”…
“It is absurd to advocate social justice while risking the expansion of a holocaust,” he said. “The right to life is at the heart of social justice. We can’t pursue one by sacrificing the other.”
[Graphic via HolyWar.net]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
praying for Bart Stupak, pro-life leaders, and anti-life politicians conversion. St. Joseph’s feast is tomorrow, c’mon St. Joe!
C,mon St. Joe is right!
Here is a novena to St. Joseph to ask him to take our intentions to our Blessed Lord…
http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/novena/joseph.htm
As a Catholic I realize how confusing all of this must be to non-Catholics. Well, it is confusing to Catholics too.
If the Church were a political party I suppose this would be an example of how the “big tent” would look: Everybody calling themselves Catholic even though they do not adhere to the precepts and traditions of the Church.
The only body that represents the teaching authority of the Church here in America was quite clear re this latest version of Obamacare. Cardinal George’s statement on the weaknesses in the bill represent the official stance. Fr. Pavone’s quip about the 59 is not far off the mark, although unfortunately many of our dear nuns (and the editors of the National Catholic Reporter) have been wandering in the desert of the latest and greatest innovations and feel good theology for the past 40 years.
It use to be that those who were at odds with the Church’s teachings were honest enough to publicly disassociate themselves from the Church, or at least remain on the sidelines. But in the last few decades they have stayed within the structures, often holding positions of influence and authority in the self-delusional hope that eventually the Church would conform it’s teachings with their particular agendas.
When Sister Carol Keenan of the Catholic Health Association paraded out the decision to support this legislation it was noted on their organization’s official communication that she was one of the chosen ones invited to attend BHO’s March 3rd White House conference. It hardly takes much imagination to connect the dots. Was it a mere co-incidence that the White House would have Sister Carol on their short list?
A lot of these nuns and others in the employ of the Church mean well but they are seriously mistaken. But even as bad as things are changes are taking place even though not as rapidly as we would like.
Thanks for the explanation, Jerry.
It’s Time to Get Real About Obamacare — the truth in a nutshell, from yours truly. And lemme tell you, it doesn’t take a whole lot of words.
http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/7422413278.html
And my opinion on those NUNS GONE WILD can be found at the blog up there under the nic.
Is it any wonder that the religious orders are shrinking, with those whom AP claims are leaders, misbehaving like that?
If National Prolife Radio runs according to schedule on Tues, 23rd you can hear more about it at 10am EDT on Day Gardner’s show.
Good catch to Jill on that Natl. Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious.
This article is the most comprehensive coverage on the Catholic Abortion Mess that I’ve seen so far in the ‘real replacement media’.
I will add another point to what Jerry said. The group of nuns who are faithful to the teaching of the Church represent religious congregations of sisters who are getting new vocations. Almost all of the young women becoming nuns in America today are entering the orders that are represented by the faithful leadership group. The nuns “represented” by the leadership group who are contradicting the bishops’ official position are almost all elderly sisters who have been dissenting on various church issues for many years now. They are getting virtually NO new vocations at all. Their lack of faithfulness to the Church is causing them, quite literally, to die out.
In another 50 years probably the large majority of the female religious communities represented by the dissenting group will not even exist, and those communities of nuns who are faithful now will become the vast majority of nuns in America 50 years from now. It really is inevitable. Only time is needed.
FYI: The dissenters toward the constant Catholic teachings on marriage, abortion, and celibacy of priests write for and read ‘National Catholic Reporter’ and ‘America Magazine.’ These publications agitate for gay marriage and women’s ordination to the priesthood. It’s best to ignore them and place quotation marks around the word “Catholic.”
Human Life Intl. has awarded their Millstone Award this month to a dissenting Catholic sister, Sister Donna Quinn — http://hli.org/index.php/component/content/article/87-millstone-award/827-sister-donna-quinn-op . “Nobody can possibly know how many women religious have left their orders, or how many children have lost their Faith, because of Sister Donna Quinn.”
The CHA and the “60 Catholic nuns” obviously intended to convey the impression that they were proclaiming the official Catholic position on this bill, when they knew they were not, in the hope of falsely lending the weight of Church authority to their erroneous words. That is dishonest, and Church leaders should hold them accountable for it. The leaders of this nefarious scheme should be asked to state that they do not represent the Church on this issue. If they refuse, they should not be allowed to hold on to their positions. It is one thing to state an opinion which is at odds with the Church and proclaim it solely as one’s own opinion and not that of the Church. It is another thing to pretend one is speaking for the Church while knowingly contradicting it’s teaching.
If you want to know where the Catholic Church stands you don’t ask a nun, you look in the catchism. There is no debate here.
2258 “Human life is sacred because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end: no one can under any circumstance claim for himself the right directly to destroy an innocent human being.”56
There is a large group of Catholics that advocate for social justice and they overstep their authority in speaking for the church. The nuns that dissent are also angry they can’t be priests. Many spent their lives helping the poor and they are angry about healthcare and I am sure some of you may have even seen articles about the nuns that helped out at Planned Parenthood. As a Catholic I get angry at those that are not looking out first for those that are the most helpless-our unborn! I fall into the category of Catholics that I guess you would say are fundamentalists. I cringe when I read about the dissent, but I guess the only explanation I can give is that many Catholics have been poorly taught and they stray from the basic beliefs. To me, they are not even Catholic-but they don’t know it! I do pray for them, but I am embarrassed also.
Dissenting Catholic voices usually fall under four categories:
1. Women’s Ordination
2. Gay Rights
3. Birth Control
4. Abortion
The dissenters hate the Popes and Bishops because of their unwavering stance in all four areas. They sense the passage of this monstrosity and have timed their announcement until the eleventh hour to ensure that they are on the winning side, should the Bishops go down to defeat.
Note that we didn’t hear from them when Scott Brown won in Mass. and the deal fell apart. This is all about their rebellion against the Bishops and wanting to bask in the glow of victory at their expense.
Whatever happened to the Vow of Obedience?
Sound and fair explanations provided by all on this thread, thank you.
As for women religious, is it any wonder that the Vatican has a visitation scheduled for the religious orders in the States? Some of these orders are so rebellious and defiant that they have refused to complete advance questionnaires for said visitation.
The National Catholic Reporter is little more than fish wrap, in my mind, but it does foment dissent of like-thinkers.
I was thinking last night that I wonder if we will hear anything from our Holy Father or from the magisterium regarding this situation. I can’t believe people like Carol Keehan can go unaddressed.
My local church is awash with the thinking on display in the National Catholic Reporter (not to be confused with the National Catholic Register which is faithful to the teaching authority of the Church). Priests for Life is almost a swear word (you should see my priest cringe when the group is mentioned – too “in your face” for his sensibilities). Our diocese is a mess and I’ve been waiting for some urging by our bishop to contact legislators – HUH, nothing. It is a shame and frankly, the Bishops have been so mealy mouthed for so long that they have lost their credibility. Yes, I know that is changing and we have some strong voices, but it will take years to turn this boat around. And it all started with the outright rejection of the teaching of Humanae Vitae. You reap what you sow.
I had not thought of asking St. Joseph to pray for us to our God. Excellent suggestion and thanks for the novena.
Scotty, Gerard, all, thanks for additional insights.
I awakened this morning thinking that what we have here is a clear example of Revelation 13. It describes the lamb beast (apostate church) directing people to follow the leopard beast (corrupt government), all under the direction of the serpent, of course, satan.
Together these 3 comprise the unholy trinity. The goal is the crush believers and deceive everyone else.
As I said, this is but an example of that, not the only instance. It is a reminder of the cosmic spiritual battle that this healthcare drama is a part of.
Catholic “ground troops” reporting here:
There’s no confusion here – we’re all against it. The people speaking up are certainly the exception, but they’re extremely vocal because the other side is gladly giving them a bull horn. I think it tickles them pink to know that we’re totally falling for it.
Don’t fall for it. There’s no confusion among Catholic LEADERSHIP, and there have been no mixed signals to us at our parishes about our opposition to the current bill.
My aunt is a Benedictine nun (in fact today is her feast day!) And NEVER, NEVER, NEVER would she endorse this bill. Nor would anyone in her convent. It is sad these so-called nuns are giving orthodox nuns a bad name.
My aunt works at the Venerable English College in Rome and so many monks, nuns and priests couldn’t believe she didn’t support Obama. When she explained his positions on different things they were appalled, but they had only heard things from liberal Catholic news outlets. It just goes to show how misleading these people are, and how many souls they are taking down the road to perdition.
Scott you are quite right about the nuns. These “women” belong to dying orders. Old, decrepit, hippie nuns who were unfaithful to their bride, Christ.
It’s good that all of these fallen Catholics (priests and bishops too) are now bleating their voices and showing faithful Catholics who exactly they are.
We want all the Catholics who support gay marriage, abortion and contraception either to repent or to get out of the Catholic church. (One would think that after 40 years of going against Catholic teaching they would see the writing on the wall?)
Now the pruning will begin.
The Lord in his own sweet time will prune too. He will not only prune but dig out to the roots and burn the chaff (forever).
I think this all points to a terrible persecution that the Church will likely have to undergo in order the refresh and bring about change.
And as an aside, change is coming. Various priests that my friends and I KNOW have serious issues have been removed from their priestly ministry this past year. It seems the bishops are finally learning that these wolves have to go.
Angel,
Yes, the pruning is under way. Remember when Jesus cursed the fig tree for not bearing fruit? When the Apostles returned that way with Jesus it was dead.
A warning to us all, and especially these orders of rebellious nuns. They’re dying out. What young woman aspires to a life of rebellion and is willing to give up all for nihilism? God has given them the greatest punishment of all. He’s given them the fruits of their labors and most ardent desires.
They are fading fast. With an average age in the upper 60’s, low 70’s, most will be dead or in nursing homes in 10 years.
It’s over for them.
But there are several orders of nuns who are bright, highly educated, joyful in their work, love their community, embrace their femininity, and are obedient to the Magisterium by choice, not circumstance. Their average ages are in the 20’s-30’s.
Fr. Pavone got it right.
Where would Catholics who are faithful to the Magesterium be without the internet? The dissident groups like Network and CHA have a disproportionate amount of the money and power of the Churc here in America. But not for long.
The voice of faithful Catholics are finding a forum online, thanks to bloggers like Jill and great new Catholic websites (all popular websites are faitful). As Time magazine says, “the sister of today has a veil; and a blog”!
The Major Superiors of Women Religious is full of young, highly educated women wih a vibrant tradtional devotion to Our Lord. You saw the Dominican Sisters wow Oprah? They are the future, and it is in good hands.
The renewal is coming, that’s why the whining has reached fever pitch from aging dissenters.
St Joseph, pray for us.
the dissident nuns are most likely to be the ones that don’t wear a habit or maybe don’t even carry a rosary or wear the special ring they receive at their final vows. My dad’s oldest sister is a sister and she’s very faithful to the Magisterium and she wears a habit. Compare that to the “sister/nun” that visits the nursing/assisted living facility where my 88 year old grandmother lives (and brings a tape for saying the Rosary). She wears STREET Clothes and does not wear a habit. In fact, you really wouldn’t even know she’s supposed to be a sister.
“My local church is awash with the thinking on display in the National Catholic Reporter (not to be confused with the National Catholic Register which is faithful to the teaching authority of the Church).”
Posted by: Nerina at March 19, 2010 7:19 AM
Nerina,
I’m sorry to hear that your parish is “one of those”. Thanks for your clarification that the National Catholic Reporter, at issue here, should not be confused with the National Catholic Register! Apparently some refer to the NC Reporter as the “National Catholic Distorter” – a good way to remember the difference between the two publications.
“Apparently some refer to the NC Reporter as the “National Catholic Distorter” – a good way to remember the difference between the two publications. ”
Ha! Excellent. I’ve been trying to come up with a way to tell them apart. There it is.
There is no war. Here is the treaty that is signed by ALL Catholics:
2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person – among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74
2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76
2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,”77 “by the very commission of the offense,”78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:
“The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death.”80
“The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights.”81
2274 Since it
Here is some more background that may be of interest.
A few years ago I had occasion to visit the motherhouse of one of these aging communities of Catholic sisters. Back in the old days, they taught school and had a large, thriving community. They did much good providing an excellent education to children many of whom would not have been able to afford such without them.
Then, enter the new generation of women who gained leadership and took control of the congregation in the 1970’s. They had been radicalized by a swirl of factors, including pop-psychology, the sexual revolution, and radical feminism (these are interlinked, of course).
Fast forward to today. The sisters who were young women in this teaching congregation in the 1960’s and 70’s (now aged 60 or 70) have retained control since then, and have gradually moved the community further away from living a life in keeping with their founding ideals. Under their leadership they have gradually abandoned their traditional teaching role, gradually abandoned wearing the habit, and taken up more politicized (and secular-looking) work. A result has been a decline in vocations to the point of having practically zero new vocations today.
But here is the main point I think is of interest. Though the vocal and visible (radicalized) sisters who are in power, unfortunately, represent the public image of these dying congregations, they still have older sisters in their communities who do not (and probably never did) agree with them. I saw this first hand. As I visited this congregation, I ate with them in their community refectory (cafeteria essentially). Here is what I saw. At some tables sat the 60-something sisters in their business suits and sensible shoes. But, there were other tables of sisters–older (in their 80’s and 90’s)–still wearing habits, keeping to themselves. There was a clear difference between the most elderly sisters and their younger compatriots.
I was with a group of faithful Catholic young men (actually, at the time I was a Dominican student brother there with other Dominicans to visit the sisters–I have since left religious life on good terms and recommend the Dominicans for young men thinking of religious life). The overall scene in the cafeteria was interesting to observe. The “younger” (more radical) sisters in control of the congregation for the most part regarded us with indifference. But, the gleams in the eyes of those precious, very elderly sisters (in habits) when they saw us in our habits! So, the young brothers naturally flocked to and sat with the most elderly sisters, and they loved having us around. They had wonderful stories to tell of decades of loving and devoted teaching. It was obvious: these dear very elderly sisters, still faithful to the Church and to their religious vocations, had been sidelined in the 70’s by their younger sisters. And they had watched, unable to do anything, as their congregations were gradually radicalized and turned into something they could barely recognize. It seemed like the younger (60 and 70-something) sisters tolerated the older, but, for the most part, ignored them and did not associate with them.
I would bet that this scenario has repeated itself all over the country. So, when you see some sour-faced (hippie generation) sister in out-of-style business attire, short hair, and sensible shoes, trying to promote something that directly contradicts the clear teaching of the Catholic Church, please don’t forget that it is very likely she has older retired sisters back home with their wheelchairs and walkers, still wearing their habits, who do not approve of what she is doing but don’t have the power to do anything about it. They have been placed to the side by their younger sisters and they suffer silently and humbly.
Please remember these elderly sisters in their 80’s and 90’s who perhaps in some ways still can’t comprehend what has happened to the congregations they loved and gave their lives for. Many of them remain faithful to the Church, yet are hidden, unseen, unheard from by the public. Pray for them. I’ll bet there are quite a few hidden saints among them whom we will have the joy of knowing in eternity. They have silently suffered much in the last 40 or so years. And their younger sisters do not speak for them when they make sad statements such as put out by Network.
If you want to know about the fidelity of a nun, take a look at what she is wearing.
She is not concerned about blending in with the world, but wears the habit as a sacramental (*little* s) sign to the world of an inward grace – that of her espousal to Christ. Vocations are exploding in orders that are wearing the habit, and the lower the hemline, the more they are flocking.
The most “radical” nuns are in the habit, out there in the world, but not of it. And may God bless them richly for it.
Well, well. The return of Asitis to Jill Stanek’s site. Using all sorts of spellings to circumvent the spam filters?
You’re not seeing it because you are not actively participating. We who are faithful are there to see it and need not justify our participation in the Church to you who do not.
Scott Johnston,
What a powerful tribute to the older nuns. One of those old nuns summed it up quite nicely. he said that they took in far too many women whom they shouldn’t have and kept them past their welcome.
Scott,
I hadn’t thought about that – that there are “rebellious nuns” living side by side with “faithful nuns” in convents. I thought they (the rebellious ones) had there own apartments. It makes sense that some would come back for lack of money or just out of loneliness. As most Catholics know, we need to remember the elderly religious who have no regular sources of income and need our donations.
Happy Feast of St. Joseph to all!
(Are you wearing red today?)
I can’t type.
there…..*their*
****
I should have also mentioned that in addition to donations, the retired religious would appreciate our prayers and a little bit of our time. There are many in nursing homes who would probably love to see visitors.
Not mentioned – a lot of Catholics don’t trust the bishops as they were intrinsically involved in covering up the abuse scandal in the U.S., England, Ireland, Australia, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, etc.
It’s come to the point where I don’t trust any clerical Catholic male because how can anyone know whether he is an abuser of children and women or a conspirator in the cover up.
Needless to say, their opinion on sexual issues is worthless to many of us, until priests, bishops and cardinals involved in this mess are tried and if justified, jailed.
Soa,
I’m so sorry that you are at this point… This is a horrible chapter in Church history. Imagine the mental anguish the GOOD priests are experiencing every day. They have to live under a microscope while trying to perform their duties. We need to pray for the strength to forgive the “bad ones” and keep them away from public ministry. We need to love “the good ones” now, more than ever. Pray for our priests. Pray for vocations.
And out of nowhere comes the abuse/scandal conversation stopper.
Don’t get me wrong. Bishops screwed up big time with handling the abuse issue. No question and it is a huge black mark on the Body of Christ.
But Soa, please, what does this have to do with dissenting Catholics who give cover to politicians in favor of funding abortion?
Ironically, the bishops who “covered up” for priests were following the psychology of the day – that people could be rehabilitated. It is partly because the Church followed the direction of secular psychology that we are in the mess today.
Soa,
The John Jay study found less than 4% of our clergy were involved in these scandals. Can lay people boast the same 97% clean-record when it comes to incest and physical abuse? Adultery? Hardly. So cut it with the ‘male celibate’ crap, okay? They’re doing better than the laity in every category.
Also, unless Bishops are tried to your satisfaction for covering the rape of children, you’ll be content with the murder of children? 1.8 BILLION since 1960? REALLY??!! You’re really going to stand on that?
That makes you either a fool or a monster. Either way, forgive me for not taking you seriously and heaping some well-deserved scorn on you.
Get well soon.
Our family lives with the scandal. It is completely edifying to me to know how it was dealt with – within our family, with forgiveness, and no sense of entitlement to Diocesan resources.
It’s an atrocity how it was dealt with then…sigh… I know that God will guide us through the way forward out of this nightmare, if only we listen to His voice and put His will before our own.
What we must never do, however, is to make the mistake of confusing the sinful people within the Church as being “The Church” itself. The Church is Herself the spotless Bride of Christ; being full of humanity, however, it is chock full of nothing but sinners.
Happy Feast of St. Joseph to all!
(Are you wearing red today?)
Posted by: Janet at March 19, 2010 12:51 PM
Hey Janet, did you catch Pelosi invoking St Joseph the Worker today?
Today is not the feast of St Joseph the Worker. Was she being clever or did she make a freudian slip by invoking a patron whose feast day is May 1st, a day dear to socialists the world over, as she comments on socialized healthcare?
Soa:
“Needless to say, their opinion on sexual issues is worthless to many of us, until priests, bishops and cardinals involved in this mess are tried and if justified, jailed.”
So the teachings of Christ become worthless just because some people disobey them?? And regain their worth because some people are jailed? Wow. Magical.
Sorry, that’s not the way it works at all. The Church’s teaching on moral matters is handed down by apostolic authority. Its truth or falsity does not depend on the sinfulness, or lack of it, of the person who hands it on. Just as the Church teaches that the Pope is infallible, not sinless.
Someone wasn’t paying attention in catechism class.
I made no statement about my Catholic beliefs other than I do not (and it’s becoming cannot) trust Catholic male clericals. I look at my priest and bishop and wonder what they know or did or did not do.
Even if only 4% were actual offenders, many more were aware of what was happening and did and said nothing. The senior pastors in the parishes, the bishops and their staffs, the Vatican, etc.
And I spent 8 hours every Saturday in catechism and choir classes until I was 14. I was raised in the Byzantine rite and they took the religious education of non-parochial school children very seriously. Additionally, I have continued to educate myself theologically.
I respect the catechism. I just find it more and more difficult to listen to our current bishops-they have been and continue to be such poor shepherds to children and also to women. Richard Sipes, a sociologist, has produced credible estimates that at least 30% of clergy are sexually active at any time. This means they are using (abusing) their positions of power in relation to children, women and some men. The problems are not resolved and I have seen no realistic efforts in these areas.
I just have lost respect for them.
Not me; I still trust and respect our priests. The priests that we know are good men – holy men – who do not exhibit the behavior of predators and follow best practices for preventing sexual abuse.
There are bad apples in every population; that doesn’t mean that we stop trusting. It can be a very hard balance between trust and faith – I do realize. But we gotta get there with our trust; it’s all a training ground for when Jesus calls us all by name and our only hope will be to trust in His great mercy.
Will pray for you Soa. Let us pray for each other.
Dear Soa,
My apologies for lack of clarity above. Please allow me to explain more precisely what I meant.
I am not advocating blind trust when it comes to sexual abuse. We still must all exercise great prudence to protect all souls involved.
When I say that we need to work on trust (a personal issue for me, as well), I am talking not about issues that arise from dealing with known offenders; but rather, those insidious whispers in our ear that make us question and doubt the whole of a population. Example: teachers who sexually abuse their students. Is the entire population untrustworthy because of the criminal choices of these few?
We all harbor sin; my concern is that if we let go of reason and allow ourselves to slip into a habitual distrust by default, how that will hurt the Church ever more deeply than the scandal itself. Consider for a moment what becomes of the flock in the absence of forgiveness: the scandal causes hurt which leads to distrust, which injures the faith, which plants seeds of doubt in which people leave the Eucharist; I can think of nothing that the Devil would love more than that (see John 6:66). We must recognize the scandal for what it is – a direct attack on the Church Herself in the most putrid scenario possible.
Christ, however, has given us the most potent weapon with which to defeat the Evil One: to love our enemies. Acting in direct opposition to our fallen nature, love oftentimes manifests itself by committing the greatest act of the will that ever was, and that is to forgive.
I truly *can* understand where you are coming from, Soa. It is so painful. God alone knows why He is allowing this to happen; as His children, we are going to have to dig even deeper to make it through this purification, for the good of our beautiful Church, for our own souls and for those precious souls in our care.
Peace. +
SOA,
I suppose you also believe that the Mother Ship is hovering over the Arizona desert too.
I guess with all of your formal contact growing up you’re just a treasure trove of names and dates and places of clerical sexual activity, aren’t you? Some fool writes a book asserting that the clergy are massively sexually active and you swallow it uncritically because you want to believe that it’s so.
May I ask you a question? What’s your sin? Because that stupidity of believing that the sins of a minority of clergy and Bishops are worse than yours is dangerous and likely to blow up in your face on Judgement Day.
So you sit and wonder about the possible sexual and administrative failings of the clergy. Imagine the burden THEY carry, hearing the confessions and knowing how many adulterers they’re looking out on.
When I was a seminarian, one of my professors told us that the sins against sex were the most human and understandable, but that the sins against charity are the coldest and most damning.
There’s a lesson in that for you and your self-righteous smugness. Your scandalmongering the innocent, painting them with the broad brush meant for the guilty is as damnable a sin as they come. It’s a violation of the commandment, “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”
The sexual sins you imagine exist only in your mind, and stem from a hard heart. Get to confession. You need it.
Sorry, Soa, but your actual statement was “their [the bishops] opinions on sexual matters are worthless.”
Now you amend it to “I don’t trust them.” I find it completely understandable that you find it difficult to personally trust individual bishops because of their sinful actions, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. You said that their statements on Catholic moral teaching are worthless, which is quite a different thing.
Of course you are perfectly not to believe in Catholic moral teaching, but don’t use the bishops’ behavior as an excuse. That doesn’t make any sense.
If you believe in Catholic moral teaching, you believe it because you believe it was given to us by Christ and handed down by the apostles and their successors. If you have stopped believing in this, then you have abandoned belief in Catholic moral teaching. It should have nothing to do with anyone’s behavior.
[Please disregard first version of this post. I did try to stop it from going through]
Sorry, Soa, but your actual statement was “their [the bishops] opinions on sexual matters are worthless.”
Now you amend it to “I don’t trust them” and “I’ve lost respect for them.” I find it completely understandable that you find it difficult to personally trust individual bishops because of their sinful actions, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. You said that their statements on Catholic moral teaching are worthless, which is quite a different thing.
However, I am glad that you admit your respect for Catholic teachings. Evidently your original opinion was just badly stated.
Modernism in the Church…
Even the bishops who are opposed to “abortion” in the bill are still letting this socialist bill pass because they incorrectly believe that socialized healthcare is a right. Read:
The Obamacare Nightmare
The US Bishops Were Not Much Help!
The Healthcare Bill:
Forcess citizens to purchase health care • Increases power of the IRS as Health Care Enforcer! * Creates 111 new bureaucracies * Contrary to Catholic Truth and to the Natural Law * Federal takeover of one-sixth of the economy * Euthanasia and “Assisted Suicide” Measures * Funds Abortion * Home Visitation Programs to Children by Federal Agents * Obama’s Washington now working to ram it through!
*******************************
The above litany does not cover all the horror of Obama’s Health Care “reform”, and does not even mention that the Senate version of the Bill provides public funding of abortion. In fact, the House “Stupak Amendment” was probably nothing more than a ploy to ensure House passage, and to keep it on the fast track to the Senate, wherein pro-life provisions can be removed afterwards.
***********************
Though the bishops’ apparent pro-life stand is appreciated, two of the three objections from the bishops still favor the socialist principle that government should provide health care for its citizens. The bishops turned a blind eye to all the other draconian measures the health care bill contains, but they did not even object to the socialism inherent in the legislation, a socialism that makes citizens less independent and more personally dependent on the government.
THE ARTICLE:
http://www.cfnews.org/obamacare-nightmare.htm
The Marriage Penalty in Health Care
by Phyllis Schlafly ARTICLE: http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2010/jan10/10-01-15.html
It is the great apostacy that Our Lady of Fatima warned us about: Fatima.org
It is time for Catholics to return to tradition!
Modernism in the Church…
Even the bishops who are opposed to “abortion” in the bill are still letting this socialist bill pass because they incorrectly believe that socialized healthcare is a right. Read:
The Obamacare Nightmare
The US Bishops Were Not Much Help!
The Bill:
Forcess citizens to purchase health care • Increases power of the IRS as Health Care Enforcer! * Creates 111 new bureaucracies * Contrary to Catholic Truth and to the Natural Law * Federal takeover of one-sixth of the economy * Euthanasia and “Assisted Suicide” Measures * Funds Abortion * Home Visitation Programs to Children by Federal Agents * Obama’s Washington now working to ram it through!
*******************************
The above litany does not cover all the horror of Obama’s Health Care “reform”, and does not even mention that the Senate version of the Bill provides public funding of abortion. In fact, the House “Stupak Amendment” was probably nothing more than a ploy to ensure House passage, and to keep it on the fast track to the Senate, wherein pro-life provisions can be removed afterwards.
***********************
Though the bishops’ apparent pro-life stand is appreciated, two of the three objections from the bishops still favor the socialist principle that government should provide health care for its citizens. The bishops turned a blind eye to all the other draconian measures the health care bill contains, but they did not even object to the socialism inherent in the legislation, a socialism that makes citizens less independent and more personally dependent on the government.
THE ARTICLE:
http://www.cfnews.org/obamacare-nightmare.htm
The Marriage Penalty in Health Care
by Phyllis Schlafly ARTICLE: http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2010/jan10/10-01-15.html
It is the great apostacy that Our Lady of Fatima warned us about: Fatima.org
It is time for Catholics to return to tradition!
I apologize–it kept saying that it could not be posted–evidently that was not the case! Sorry!
Alma,
It happens alot – you get an error message but usually the comment goes through anyways. Goofy.